List of St Johnstone F.C. seasons

List of St Johnstone F.C. seasons (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured list candidates/List of St Johnstone F.C. seasons/archive1

Nominator(s): Boca Jóvenes (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because I think it will be interesting for people reading about Scottish football to have a summary of the major competition experience of one of Scotland's leading clubs. The list summarises all of St Johnstone's seasons in senior football not only with their with league and cup records, but also information about grounds, managers, European competitions and (where known) the leading goalscorers per season. The footnotes add much extra information to provide necessary background. Boca Jóvenes (talk) 15:50, 9 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now, concerns about comphrensiveness and sourcing.

• For a club that has been active for over a century, I would think a history section to supplement the list is a minimum requirement. It's true that certain lists have been promoted without summaries (Birmingham City, Barcelona), but the criteria was different back then. In any case, their leads are fairly detailed.
• There's nothing about how the club faired in its first seasons, how it was set up, how it came to join the SFL, etc. Goes back to my first point.
• Image could do with a more striking caption than just 'McDiarmid Park'
• "The club's has had three home grounds, the current one since 1989 is McDiarmid Park," grammar
• "they have in six seasons qualified to take part in the UEFA Cup/Europa League, including four seasons consecutively from 2013 to 2016," can't make heads or tails of this sentence, especially BIB.
• Is first team hyphenated?
• Why is 'where known' italicised in the final paragraph?
• "Believed to be correct to the end of the 2015-16 season," eh? For me this raises validity issues. What book or website are you using to source the table, it's not clear. References in general are sparse.
• "Seasons in which the team were promoted have the league position in green. Seasons in which the team were relegated have the league position in red," do you think this would better serve the reader in the 'key' section? Moreover, would you consider adding a 'Key to colours and symbols' chart like this one?
• What's the logic behind including managers in the table? I'm not dismissing it, I'm just intrigued because it's unconventional.
• 1999–00 → 1999–2000. Are you sure they played in the 'Europa League' that season...best leave a footnote to explain the competition's name change.
• Lots of missing top goalscorers
• Ref 2 should be The Observer

Considering where this was a few days ago, you've done a decent job in smartening the table up but this list is nowhere near featured standard according to the criteria. The goalscorer column is incomplete for starters and I don't trust the validity of the table. Looking at the 'further reading' column it seems there are books available which may fill in the missing gaps. Moreover you could consult the club or a St Johnstone/Scottish football historian, they probably would be thrilled to help you out. Lemonade51 (talk) 14:19, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Yes, thanks for the feedback which is what I wanted to see, the object of the exercise is to bring the article up to standard. Finding the missing goalscorers will be a problem, though. I can certainly add a history section and generally tidy up. Will wait for further comments first. To answer your question about managers, I think this has greater relevance than who scored the most goals. If one player must be named per season, I would rather see the captain or the player of the year or the one with the most appearances than the top goalscorer (I think goalscoring takes statistics too far). Thanks again. Boca Jóvenes (talk) 14:48, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Club lists tend to have a mainpage dedicated to managers, hence why I thought it was unusual to see it merged in this nom. I'm not a big fan of statistics but I don't see the harm including the club's top goalscorer for each season. It's usually the barometer of how a season went. And having a peek at the other FL season lists, it's a fundamental inclusion. Unlike assists, the definition is clear (player who scores the most goals), and since the rules of football were established, it has always been recorded. That should be the case with St Johnstone (difficult as it may be, the information must be out there), otherwise as it stands, the table remains incomplete, and doesn't meet point 3 of the criteria. So unfortunately I can't change my stance. If you think it shouldn't be included, it's worth making your case here... Lemonade51 (talk) 16:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - I also agree that the managers column should not be included, but if it is included then it must be sourced. At the moment there are no sources confirming any of the data in the column..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:20, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly, the top goalscorer column is unsourced. Apologies, but at the moment the sourcing is way below what would be required in a FL -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:22, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Nomination withdrawn. I think the nomination was premature given that the standard is higher than I expected (I suspect that some of the existing FLs I've researched may themselves be below standard now). I'm grateful for the feedback, though, because it will help me to improve the article in due course. Many thanks to Lemonade51 and ChrisTheDude for your help. Btw, if I need to do anything anywhere to effect the withdrawla, please let me know. Boca Jóvenes (talk) 10:31, 12 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@WP:FLC director and delegates: Nominator wants to withdraw this nomination. Cowlibob (talk) 03:05, 13 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]