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Template:BLP noticeboard This [1] is inappropriate. It is not fair to characterize Rubio's words in the way his opponents would talk about them, then go on to say that Politifact says he is wrong, without even quoting what he said. Additionally, it's a violation of WP:Synth.CometEncke (talk) 22:56, 17 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If Rubio finds himself in the position of being an opponent of mainstream scientists, that is indeed a difficult position to be in -- but it's not our problem. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:41, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for responding. However, the current version, by saying that "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming and that proposals to address climate change would be ineffective and economically harmful.", gives a misleading impression of what Rubio actually said. Specifically, the phrase "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change", does not accurately reflect what he told the National Press Club, which is the quote that the article is based on. I encourage you to go to the ABC source, and look at the quote. What he is saying is that he believes that the notion that climate change is "directly and almost solely attributable to human activity" is unproven. But if you look at the linked article on the scientific understanding of climate change, even the lead portion of that article does not make such an assertion. Therefore, in addition to being unfair, the current version is simply wrong. For this reason, although I don't like revert wars, I am going to go ahead and re-revert. I will, however, do so without block quotes, which I am told are an NPOV concern.CometEncke (talk) 11:02, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to the source: "Rubio says he thinks the laws won’t work — but will hurt the economy in a “devastating” way." and "Rubio said. “The question is: Is man-made activity causing the changes in the climate?”. To conform more closely to the source, we could change "... arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming..." to "... questioning whether human activity plays a major role in global warming...". But let's please not remove sources.- MrX 13:35, 18 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• We don't characterize Rubio's position on his oppponents' terms, so the premise of this talk page section is fundamentally incorrect. We characterize Rubio's position in the terms of independent, reliable sources (such as Politifact), which is what we're obliged to do by basic site policies. MastCell ^Talk 02:08, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Which source says that Rubio does not accept the scientific understanding of climate change, exactly? I must have missed it. Perhaps the article forgot to cite it? CometEncke (talk) 08:44, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are innumerable independent, reliable sources attesting to the fact that Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change (namely, that it is driven primarily by human activity). I'm surprised you're having trouble finding them. I've attached a handful below:

Let me know which ones you would like to use for the article, or feel free to do some looking yourself. MastCell ^Talk 20:39, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you are saying he either disputes the extent of, or altogether disputes, the connection between temperature and human activities, I agree with you. But implicit in your remarks is another assertion, which is demonstratably false -- the assertion that that connection constitutes the entire scientific understanding of climate change. That is incontrovertibly false, just as much as the assertion about Rubio you appear to imagine that I am making. CometEncke (talk) 13:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming..." from the article makes no claim about "the entire scientific understanding". It's a straw man. "The scientific understanding" would be understood by a reasonable reader with grade six education to mean "scientific consensus", in other words, the widely-held view among scientists.- MrX 14:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think a reasonable third-grader would understand it would not detract at all from this Wikipedia article to say that "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of human contributions to climate change, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming..."Anythingyouwant (talk) 15:10, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Your sentence preceding the part in quotation marks is difficult to parse. The phrasing proposed in quotation marks is awkward and repetitive, and the current wording is better. Any reasonable reader will correctly understand the second half of the existing sentence to be refining the first half. --JBL (talk) 02:31, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We could write that "Rubio disputes widely accepted scientific truth, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming..." But such a broad statement would be too general. Specific is better. I hope you can parse that. Anyway, it's not a huge problem as far as I'm concerned.Anythingyouwant (talk) 12:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you. --JBL (talk) 14:56, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The article contains the following passage: Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming . . . The article points two two sources [2][3]. A third source, not currently linked in the article, also discusses Rubio's remarks: [4]. Are the sources sufficient to support the statement in the article? CometEncke (talk) 16:57, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• No, Rubio agrees with portions of the scientific consensus (the earth is warming), has taken no position that I can find on other portions (sea level is rising), and, as the sources show, says be believes another portion (humans are the primary cause) is either unproven or false (not entirely clear which he believes). That's a far cry from disputing the entire scientific understanding, as the article states. EDIT: I find it rather disheartening that none of the "yes" voters has even addressed my actual concern.[User:CometEncke|CometEncke]] (talk) 17:02, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• The scientific understanding of climate change is that it is occurring primarily as a result of human activity. Rubio disputes this. There are innumerable independent, reliable sources attesting to Rubio's position (a subset of which I've provided here). It is sort of incomprehensible that we need an RfC to authorize us to state an obvious, well-sourced fact, although I guess it is election season... MastCell ^Talk 20:42, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Seek consensus and ye shall find it. I won't wade into this, except to say that there are plenty of reputable scientists who do not subscribe to every facet of the scientific consensus about climate change, even though they do not dispute that overall consensus. If you stick closely to what the sources say, I think the editors in dispute can reach agreement.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:01, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, of course. The two sources cited are more than sufficient, and corroborated by numerous other sources as pointed out by MastCell. Even the ABC News article linked by the OP supports the content in question when Rubio says: "The fundamental question is whether man-made activity is what's contributing to it. I understand that people say there's a significant scientific consensus on that issue, but I've actually seen reasonable debate on that principle." Rubio considers the debate about anthropogenic climate change to be ongoing and reasonable, while the overwhelming majority of scientists consider it settled. That's the dispute. - MrX 23:43, 19 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, in particular with the LA Times source. Also see the Scientific American. Personally, I have the impression that he panders to the Republican base and donors, possibly against his better judgment, but there is no doubt that he does. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:29, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CometEncke, maybe you have not made your concern clear enough? Yes, I think that the sources are sufficient to support the bolded statement, and I offered an additional source supporting the claim. What, if not that, is your concern? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's the first two sentences after the bolded word "no" in my vote. Are they unclear? CometEncke (talk) 20:01, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

CometEncke, would you approve of "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of human contributions to climate change, arguing that human activity does not play a major role in global warming"?Anythingyouwant (talk) 20:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If you look at what he actually says, it seems like sometimes he says just what you said, and other times he says something more along the lines of "arguing that it is not proven that human activity plays a major role in global warming." How to handle that discrepancy I don't know. CometEncke (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Well, maybe you ought to figure out how you want to handle it.Anythingyouwant (talk) 21:45, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

If I support MOND, I dispute general relativity, even if I don't disagree with all of it. Likewise, many climate science deniers agree with, say, the existence of temperature, some even that global temperature changes. But they disagree with core parts of the scientific consensus and hence the consensus. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 20:16, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

On the criterion you are suggesting, it would be quite easy to argue that the IPCC itself does not agree with the scientific consensus of plant biology, given their chronic lack of clarity about the blindingly obvious impact of CO2 rise on plant growth in general and agriculture in particular.CometEncke (talk) 21:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

"Blindingly obvious" to whom? From a quick look at the literature you seem to argue akin to "iron is necessary to prevent anemia, so a sword in the stomach cannot be bad for you". In other words, while CO2 in isolation has a positive effect on some plants in some situations, things become a lot more complicated if you take other factors into account. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 22:11, 20 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, obviously. --JBL (talk) 02:33, 21 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes. The statement is unambiguously supported by now three (numbered 144, 145, 146) references. CometEncke: the statement does not say that he disputes every aspect of the scientific understand, indeed it makes it clear which aspect he has doubts about. Maproom (talk) 08:28, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, the sources provided clearly support that statement. The LA Times piece is especially clear about it. Egsan Bacon (talk) 16:04, 22 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, the header question "Does the sourcing given support the statement?" and the question in the last sentence of the abstract "Are the sources sufficient to support the statement in the article?" are not precisely the same thing, but answering to the section header question - yes, the sources support that statement.--Mondiad (talk) 07:57, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Neutral, From my understanding, Rubio (from this article) believes in non-anthropogenic climate change, but not anthropogenic climate change. So he believes in natural occurring changes in climate. Personally I do not like the term "Climate Change" as it is extremely vague because it could also refer to the natural change in climate e.g. The Earth plunging into an ice age due to natural changes in its orbit can also be "Climate change". If termed properly Rubio should've said that he rejects anthropogenic climate change, (to be even clearer "anthropogenic global warming") and believes in non-anthropogenic climate change. Davidbuddy9 Talk  21:43, 26 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Why does the text say scientific understanding as opposed to the article who says scientific opinion? I'm not saying it's particularly different but there's probably a reason one word has been picked over another since that was a conscious choice to pipe it that way. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 23:35, 27 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• No - on the contrary, the cites show him in loose acceptance of the existence of climate change and that human factors play in. They seem mosly a couple liberal-lean papers poking at him (no surprise) for opposing the White House proposals (since he's Republican, also no surprise). It did not cover each of the bullets at Scientific opinion on climate change, but I think what's there accepts major items. I also think the wording 'dispute' and 'arguing' are factually incorrect as he is not literally arguing or disputing with a scientific group. I wouldn't say 'oppose' or 'support' either without an act to do so -- funding, voting, proposing a bill, even just marching or signing a petition but some definite action. Just answering questions from journalist with no action to them ... not so much. Markbassett (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you're capable of dismissing the wealth of reliable sources (including the Wall Street Journal, Scientific American, the Christian Science Monitor, PolitiFact, etc) as "a couple liberal-lean papers" [sic], then I think our understandings of site policy are extremely divergent. You also contend that Rubio exhibits a "loose acceptance" of the role that human activity plays in climate change. Please elaborate on the sources underlying your belief; as I've documented above, reliable sources seem essentially unanimous in noting that Rubio either ignores or denies a human role in climate change. One of us is clearly misinterpreting available sources; if it's me, I'd be happy to be enlightened. MastCell ^Talk 01:21, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• • • MastCell - Yes, I and also you must dismiss other sources, since that is what the RfC asks about. The question is if just the Miami Herald and the LATimes articles are sufficient for the wording of the wiki line. Instead I see (a) Miami factually shows the contrary and (b) These particular papers open it to seeming a 'just a couple liberal-lean papers poke at him' versus a neutral presentation. The Miami article to the contrary includes Rubio quoted as actually conveying the scientific consensus and loosely agreeing with it. “I’ve never denied that there is a climate change,” and “Scientists have concluded, in their opinion, that because we have produced more carbon into the atmosphere in the last 150 years, that’s the reason why, in their opinion, the earth’s trendlines are warming,”. The article wording which is not supported has "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change", and that wording being unlimited and active is obviously wrong. There would need to be demonstration of him actively putting forward contrary proposals to be 'Rubio disputes' and it would have to be on all or at least the fundamental points. Otherwise it exaggerates what should say 'some of the scientific understanding'. Bottom line -- the two cites would be more appropriately characterized as weak or partial acceptance. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 20:54, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your argument is much like saying that someone who has invented a perpetual motion machine, turned his refrigerator into a time-travel spaceship, and is convinced he can levitate the Empire State Building through sheer force of will disputes only "some" of our understanding of physics because, hey, he accepts that heliocentrism may not be completely wrong. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 16:52, 30 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes, quite obviously. Anyone who claims otherwise either hasn't read those sources or has no clue what the "scientific understanding of climate change" is. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:40, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes, quite obviously.

• "“I do not believe that human activity is causing these dramatic changes to our climate the way these scientists are portraying it.”" - Rubio on ABC's This Week in 2014 (via New Republic
• "Humans are not responsible for climate change in the way some of these people out there are trying to make us believe, for the following reason: I believe the climate is changing because there’s never been a moment where the climate is not changing." - Rubio on Face the Nation (via Washington Post)
• "Marco Rubio (junior U.S. senator from Florida) believes climate change is happening, but not that it is caused by man" - Scientific American
• "[the climate] has always been changing ... and what percentage of that is due to man's activity is not something there is a consensus on." - Rubio on Fox News (via NPR) — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 03:29, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rhododendrites - ??? This acts like 'No those two are not enough' on the Miami and LA articles, but it started Yes ... again the RFC is not Rubios position, it is whether the two cites stated do the job for the wording as shown -- or not. Markbassett (talk) 20:10, 28 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter if the sources were included in the RfC question or not. This thread is about whether sources support the inclusion of a statement. We're not going to start a new RfC for each specific set of sources, asking over and over "what about these specific sources?" to which people are only allowed to say yes or no without presenting any others. Wikipedia requires that potentially contentious statements are supported by reliable sources. All that matters if whether available sourcing supports inclusion of the statement. Even if no sources were cited at all at the outset of the RfC it would still make sense to consider the question in the context of sources people bring up over the course of the RfC. Finding additional sources only renders moot any assumptions built into the premise that there are only 2 or 3 sources. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 04:19, 29 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rhodo -- just follow the cites -- the broad and absolute language did not give sufficient cite, which IS what was the topic, and just following cites and conveying due weight still adds up to partial support, or 'grudging' or ' doubtful on parts'. The language in article is just too broad to fit the facts. Markbassett (talk)

The language is "too broad" only if we are willing to disregard what the "scientific understanding of climate change" actually is. Human causation is fundamental to the scientific understanding of present-day climate change, just as evolution is fundamental to biology. The real problem with the sentence is that "disputes" is too weak; "rejects" is more accurate. Shock Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 15:06, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark I'm not entirely sure what this means, but it looks like my response would be to say more or less the same thing I did above. If you're simply disagreeing that the sources I pointed to do not support the proposed text, then my only response would be something along the lines of what Boris started with just above. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 16:11, 31 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Rhodo YOUR cites say Rubio accepts climate change, and in 3 of 4 that humans are a factor. Not accurate to say this as "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding". One could say "disputes Obamas plans" or "Rubio is often criticized", or "weak, grudging, partial" even. But the proposed wording is too broad to match the cites. And again has appearance of couple more democrat-leaning papers sniping at Repubs - seems partisan - mostly on they criticized Obama -- also no surprise. Markbassett (talk)

The question is not "does Marco Rubio 'accept climate change'". The question is whether "Rubio disputes the scientific understanding of climate change". And those sources clearly support that statement. Most of the quotes above are his own words, so "the liberal media" tack doesn't seem relevant. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 17:27, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes The LA Times article quite clearly supports the statement, as does the ABC source, for that matter. One could quibble about the exact meaning of "dispute" if one only had the Miami Herald article, although that would be a real stretch, but it's irrelevant anyway, since the LA Times piece is unequivocal. Anaxial (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes the scientifically relevant part of understanding climate change is understanding that there is overwhelming evidence that it is caused by the burning of fossil fuel. The sources clearly show that he does not accept this evidence or argument.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 04:47, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
• Yes - A denier is a denier is a denier. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:35, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

He is a Hispanic American not Latino American because he comes from Cuba. Kaybe123 (talk) 14:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Cuba is considered part of Latin America. See Rangel, Carlos (1977). The Latin Americans: Their Love-Hate Relationship with the United States. New York: Harcourt Brace Jovanovich. pp. 3–5. ISBN 978-0-15-148795-0. See also Skidmore, Thomas E.; Peter H. Smith (2005). Modern Latin America (6 ed.). Oxford and New York: Oxford University Press. pp. 1–10. ISBN 978-0-19-517013-9.Anythingyouwant (talk) 14:59, 4 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Some sections can and should be split to separate articles. - Cwobeel (talk) 22:34, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

One of these would definitely be moving his political positions into a separate article at Political positions of Marco Rubio which is a redirect at the moment. Idealist343 (talk) 23:00, 7 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:52, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Done.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:09, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not really. The section here need to summarize his key political positions, per WP:SUMMARY. Tagged accordingly. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:12, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It's verbatim the same as the "Overall political stance" section in the main article. Feel free to revise both, but they're perfectly in sync.Anythingyouwant (talk) 04:15, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are not. we need to summarize the article not just a section of the article. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:17, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

That section does not come close to being NPOV. Tagged accordingly. - Cwobeel (talk) 03:57, 8 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]