Involuntary celibacy

Involuntary celibacy (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This article was previously deleted and has been edited in userspace. A discussion at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2015 August 6 concluded that this version of the article is to be made subject to a normal deletion discussion in order to determine whether it now meets our notability and other inclusion requirements. Please refer also to the previous discussions linked to in the deletion review. This is a procedural nomination, I am neutral.  Sandstein  08:36, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Still delete as it is a medically misleading neologism masquerading as a psychiatric diagnosis. I have also removed a segment that uses MEDMOS noncompliant source to confirm a quasi-psychiatric diagnosis for a near-BLP. More problems to come. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:19, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And we are not using "letters to the editor" to support the definition. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:22, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And this ref removed is a film review ?! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:26, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Barth source uses the term as "adjective + noun" and is not discussing this condition specifically. This is original research. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a medical article or anywhere close to it. It's a social topic. And like I stated of this deletion by you, "I don't see how WP:MEDMOS or WP:MEDRS apply to the Elliot Rodger material. Also, he is dead, so I don't see how WP:BLP applies. It's talking about Elliot Rodger, not others." Flyer22 (talk) 12:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(a) He's very recently dead and has a direct impact on families of living people. Any "condition" we would discuss as a causation of something like mass-murder would be some sort of psychiatric diagnosis, which is squarely in the field of WP:MED. To kill people like that needs some other phenomenon, not this, to explain the lack of empathy and violence, so to ascribe something like celibacy alone to mass murder is just so wrong on so many levels. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:50, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In the case that you were talking about his family or his victims, I stated, "It's talking about Elliot Rodger, not others." As for a medical reason for mass murder, people commit mass murder for various reasons (same goes for plain ole murder), and it's not always classified as medical. Back when this topic was under the Involuntary celibacy Wikipedia title (I mean during Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination)), it was an issue that required medical sources. Now it barely requires those. It's not a medical topic; the vast majority of it is a social topic, with a few medical instances...such as mention of depression. Flyer22 (talk) 12:56, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Furthermore, whether we classify Elliot Rodger as a muss murderer or as a spree killer (or both; sources can't make up their minds on that, after all), the Elliot Rodger Wikilink does note his mental health problems; it's likely that people will not think that he went on a killing spree simply because of getting no sex and being lonely. Flyer22 (talk) 13:16, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, if we are in agreement that assigning this as a cause for mass murder, then why stick the segment in in the first place with no criticism? Anyway, you have your views and I have mine, may as well see what others think. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:30, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete The opening sentence of our article Celibacy: "Celibacy (from Latin, cælibatus") is the state of voluntarily being unmarried, sexually abstinent, or both, usually for religious reasons." My understanding of celibacy has always involved it being a voluntary commitment. (Virginity means you didn't have sex in the past, chastity means you are not having sex now [except with spouse], celibacy means you don't intend to have sex in the future.) At least rename the article to something that makes sense. Borock (talk) 13:33, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete, still The topic itself is original research. The distinction between this and regular celibacy seems to be an artificial one. The previous result of merging with celibacy made the most sense. I don't see any significant changes that address the prior concerns. Chillum 16:53, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Deletion is policy based, what I am seeing is a lack of understanding WP:N, WP:NEO, and WP:MEDRS which borders on WP:IDONTLIKEIT. For example this source The American Journal of Urology and Sexology published in 1916 clearly distinguishes between voluntary abstinence and involuntary. The subject has been covered for over a century. The concept that an individual desires sex but is unable either due to physical or mental limitations is not fringe nor a neologism. Wikipedia covers such topics as per this discussion Talk:Involuntary celibacy, if title is an issue the subject can always be move involuntary sexual abstinence. As per Jimbo Wales talk page:

"This case is very, very confusing to the unfamiliar eye and involves deletes, restores, moves, sockpuppetry, unusual AfD proceedings, etc" If I were voting, I would likely vote to keep, but that's not really relevant. There's a confusion I sense here when people discuss WP:MEDRS in this context - it's not a medical term, and not notable for being a medical term, it's a popular term. If the term is notable at all (I don't know for sure but there are some strong initial indicators that it likely is) then it doesn't matter if it is covered in medical journals or academic articles at all. It's something people will want to know about (including, likely, that it is not a term from professional medicine). I see a huge number of uses of the term in perfectly normal mainstream media. It is therefore a term that people are likely to Google. It's our job to answer whatever questions they may have about the term."--Jimbo Wales (talk) 20:29, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Posted from March 16th. WP:MEDRS does not need to apply in this case, nor does WP:NEO. The subject clearly passes WP:N with flying colors. Other editors such as DGG, S Marshall, CorporateM, BDD, and BusterD have shown prior support for this subject. I understand that there are political reasons for keeping this article and those associated with it deleted, however we are confusing the concept of Love-shyness, which is a neologism whose followers may be associated with misogyny and involuntary celibacy, a century old topic with significant coverage and neutrality. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 19:35, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Note If anyone views the 30 sources listed we can see that WP:OR does not apply this topic is both academic and historical. The current version for AfD is significantly different from the prior version. Valoem ^{talk contrib} 19:41, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Looks like a pretty normal article about a notable subject. CorporateM (Talk) 19:45, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep Important subject, with multiple aspects; the article needs expansion, not deletion. I have never been able to fathom the reasons for objecting to it. I do not see where MEDRS comes into this at all, nor OR. The sources are sufficient, and many more exist. DGG ( talk ) 21:15, 13 August 2015 (UTC) .[reply]
• Delete - this issue has been discussed to death, and time and time again the result has been "delete". Even the initial result of 'merge' was a de facto deletion because the editors of the article it was supposed to be merged with (Celibacy) did not want the material to be added. Therein lies the whole problem: even the name, "involuntary celibacy", is an oxymoron as celibacy is a voluntary condition by definition. The name originates from internet forums and is associated with the (now deleted) fictional condition of "Loveshyness". All this is very shady, and very much a fringe theory to my knowledge. The whole concept of there being some sort of condition preventing men from having sex, is ridiculous and close to a conspiracy theory. One of the arguments for the editor who wishes to re-instate the article is that Elliot Rodger, the perpetrator of the Isla Vista shootings of 2014, believed in the condition and that him believing in the condition of "incel" was mentioned in several news articles. To me, this is not sufficient grounds for an article and I think it's time to give it a rest and respect the outcome of the previous deletion(s) and request of undeletion. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 21:23, 13 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]