Cannabis Ruderalis

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:::Frankly, to me, that's another GOOD REASON for redlinks in navboxes — wiki is far from "complete" (again, Belmont Stakes...) One reason for redlinks is precisely to avoid duplication; for example, when I began to edit wikipedia, there were three different articles on the [[Konik horse]] - we can't redlink categories, and absent a navbox, no one thinks to look for a list. A navbox with a redlink shows that an article ''should'' be there, but doesn't exist yet. Black text may be visually more appealing, but it's the red links that will ''enhance'' navigability in the long run by encouraging people to "finish" sets of articles. Again, [[User:The Rambling Man]]'s Boat Race articles are a case in point. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 22:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
:::Frankly, to me, that's another GOOD REASON for redlinks in navboxes — wiki is far from "complete" (again, Belmont Stakes...) One reason for redlinks is precisely to avoid duplication; for example, when I began to edit wikipedia, there were three different articles on the [[Konik horse]] - we can't redlink categories, and absent a navbox, no one thinks to look for a list. A navbox with a redlink shows that an article ''should'' be there, but doesn't exist yet. Black text may be visually more appealing, but it's the red links that will ''enhance'' navigability in the long run by encouraging people to "finish" sets of articles. Again, [[User:The Rambling Man]]'s Boat Race articles are a case in point. [[User:Montanabw|<font color="006600">Montanabw</font>]]<sup>[[User talk:Montanabw|<font color="purple">(talk)</font>]]</sup> 22:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


::::I remain unconvinced that we should add redlinks to the navbox. What is so different about having red links in a navbox as opposed to red links in a See also section? [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 23:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
::::I remain unconvinced that we should add redlinks to the navbox. What is so different about having red links in a navbox as opposed to red links in a See also section? [[User:Flyer22|Flyer22]] ([[User talk:Flyer22|talk]]) 23:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

*'''Support''' When you have a bestselling writer, sometimes they allow red links to his books that don't have articles, and sometimes people go through insisting it be erased. Its all about whatever random people are around at the time to argue. Looks ridiculous for many things to not have a complete list there. Even if not red links, they should still be there as text. [[User:Dream Focus | '''<span style="color:blue">D</span><span style="color:green">r</span><span style="color:red">e</span><span style="color:orange">a</span><span style="color:purple">m</span> <span style="color:blue">Focus</span>''']] 23:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)


== Protected ==
== Protected ==

Revision as of 23:22, 20 June 2015

Personal names

"Red links to personal names should be avoided particularly when the name is reported in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual."

This is a little confusing as written. Is a "personal name" the first name of a person as opposed to a surname or a family name? Should it just read "person's name". It also mentions that the name might match up with a sex offender of the same name. Why would we have a list of non-notable sex offenders? I don't think we need to NOT link people's names, we just need to remind people when they create an article to properly disambiguate the person and check the "What links here" button. People's names are probably the most common reason to create a redlink. I do it all the time to see if someone is already in Wikipedia. Otherwise every reader that is curious has to create a red link to see if that person has an article. Almost every list I see is a sea of red names. I have been working on some lists of award winners for over 5 years. See International Polo Cup (redlink version) vs International Polo Cup (no redlink version), how would I know who has a biography and who doesn't unless they are linked. It makes more sense to just NOT have a list of non notable sex-offenders. Does this make sense? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 07:00, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

would you like" names of individuals?" The difficulty of wording policy or guidelines precisely is one of the reason why I regard policy and guidelines as descriptive of what we do. It is the examples that make the guideline, and the exemplification in actual cases that best interprets it. DGG ( talk ) 09:58, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with RAN's suggestion of "person's name" - "individuals" is less plain language. The issue with red linking a name and walking away is that next year someone may create an article for a person with same name who has become notable - as a sex offender, or CEO or Olympic athlete. This creates a misdirect, which would confuse readers. For example, a list of candidates for mayor of Toronto linked a minor candidate named Kevin Richardson. Even if the link had been to "Kevin Richardson (Toronto politician)", there would be a significant risk that when the article is created, it is about a different Kevin Richardson who has run for office. Linking a name and expecting someone else to create the article is a bad idea. Ground Zero | t 12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try your wording adjustment. Of course we ought not make lists of people with borderline notability for something negative, and I think there's also a consensus to not include redlinks in lists of people of a specific cultural group. The problem of eds. filling in redlinks inappropriately is related to the problem of eds. changing redirects to something inappropriate--most of what I have seen is promotional, not abuse. I think there's been a discussion of technical measures. The use of name qualifiers would help--the likelihood of an example like just mentioned is very much lower than without them, but our current naming policy is to not use them if not necessary. I personally do not agree with that, and think we should follow the practice of some other WPs that use such qualifiers routinely, but this is one of the things I've given up arguing for. DGG ( talk ) 17:07, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@ Ground Zero. The hypothetical problem is that someone in the future will expand the current list of seven sex offenders and they may match a name somewhere in Wikipedia. Who don't we just more closely monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. It is so much easier than deleting or not creating hundreds of thousands of redlinks of people's names. You can make the same argument to ban bluelinks since they are just as likely to be improperly disambiguated with a name on the existing sex offender list. Just monitor the sex offender list for BLP problems. I just did that recently for the scientific misconduct page, where people were adding in their enemies without any context. This was a bluelink problem: Jimmy Wales was on the Terry Gross show and she asked him why the name of her producer linked to a fictional mass murder, he said it was improperly disambiguated and fixed it. The lesson, simple names such as Danny Miller should lead to a disambiguation page, and almost all already do. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 20:50, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of listing all the bad things like sex worker and rapists, we just need to comply with BLP.

Caution should be used when creating a redlink to a person's name. All the rules that apply to WP:BLP equally apply to redlinked names. When creating a biography from a redlink be sure to use "what links here" to make sure all the incoming links are properly disambiguated.

--Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 21:38, 5 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), DGG and Ground Zero, I just read the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" part, and I was confused. I was tempted to alter that text and/or start a discussion about the matter here at this talk page, before I saw that there is already a section about it. Why was I confused? Why was I tempted to change it? That's because the text reads contradictory to me, since, if the person is WP:Notable, then it's common that the person's name should be linked. It's like the WP:Red link guideline is encouraging the creation of a blue link for all notable topics except people. Flyer22 (talk) 13:46, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From you guys' discussion, it seems that the text is trying to state that the link shouldn't simply be about the name; it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name. But the "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" text does not express that well. Flyer22 (talk) 13:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, going by what Ground Zero stated in his "12:23, 5 February 2015 (UTC)" post above, it's not even about "it should be about the link covering the person, not the person's name." Flyer22 (talk) 13:53, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I restored the text that was removed because I see a couple of editors expressing a concern that it's not the best wording, but no consensus that it should be removed, or what should replace it. "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided, particularly when the name is used in a context which might cause readers to hold a low or critical opinion of the named individual" I'm not seeing an issue with this wording, particularly because it keeps this guideline in line with the BLP policy, which most redlinks aren't directly affected by. Personal names also are far from unique in most circumstances; editors will create wikilinks to a name without checking if it's the same person, even if that article already exists, so care needs to be taken when dealing with BLP subjects. - Aoidh (talk) 16:35, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

query

At what point are "future article" red links in an article excessive?

Note Aurelia Greene has red links for 14 articles not yet created for "New York Legislatures" spanning from 185 to 198.

Should a limit of some sort be placed on such mechanical lists of non-existent articles? Or is it likely that since the articles will eventually exist that we should populate biographies with all potential future articles and my amusement is unwarranted? Collect (talk) 20:30, 25 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That example is just plain bad writing. Even if they were blue links we wouldn't/shouldn't individually list and link the 15 specific numbered legislatures she served in. The fact that 14 of them are redlinks is not the problem. The line should be edited to read: "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009." I haven't done that now so as not to destroy the example. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 23:57, 26 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Except User:Kraxler is in fact creating those very articles in chronological order, so it is best to keep them. See for instance 184th New York State Legislature to see how much research goes into each article. You can see where it takes weeks of research to create a single article. While the lede can cay "She was a member of the New York State Assembly from 1982 to 2009", linking to to the session summary is an excellent idea in the body. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:49, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, it has been standard practice to add blue links to all congresses they were sitting in at US congressmen's bios. I just followed the pattern with state legislators. One of the main basic features of Wikipedia are exactly the blue links which lead the reader to interesting/important context. "She was a member of the NYSA from xxxx to yyyy" will never provide any context. The blue links show what happened in the Legislature while the member was acting there. And yes, there are now 7 blue links and 8 red links at Aurelia Greene, but look at Charles J. Hewitt, the first man to serve 30 years in the New York State Senate, there are 30 blue legislature links, for the interested reader to explore. And if there are no blue links, people tag articles as WP:UNDERLINKed... Kraxler (talk) 12:25, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

mobile Wikipedia

Please provide more information (in this article) about how en.m.wikipedia.org handles redlinks. 71.178.51.189 (talk) 18:36, 26 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Changes needed

Nav boxes NO red links

  • "Red links generally are not included ... in navigational boxes" Why is that? Of course they should be. How is the reader to know whether the article exists and needs brackets to make a blue link, or we need to have an article on that person. This should be removed. What do you think? --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 16:58, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ), I don't agree with this removal of text you made. Just like the WP:See also section, WP:NAVBOXES are meant to direct readers to existing articles, not indicate that an article should be created. What the text you removed is stating is that a topic that does not have a Wikipedia article should not be listed in the WP:NAVBOX; so your statement of "if it is important to have the name or place in a navbox" is irrelevant since the topics should not be listed there if they have no Wikipedia articles.
I will likely start a WP:RfC on this for input. Generally, I am against significant/huge changes being made to a Wikipedia policy or guideline without significant discussion. Flyer22 (talk) 19:20, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
A redlink indicates that an article very probably should be created. The mere existence of the name in the succession box indicates this by itself, since we use these boxes (or should be using them) only for positions that are very likely to imply notability. DGG ( talk ) 19:26, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
DGG, are you arguing that we should have red links in the navboxes? If so, the guideline already addresses the one exception to red links being in the navboxes -- the succession box aspect. Otherwise, they should not be there. Including them there doesn't even align with the WP:NAVBOX essay. Flyer22 (talk) 19:33, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've restored the text. There doesn't seem to be consensus for this change. WP:NAVBOX states: "Navigation templates are a grouping of links used in multiple related articles to facilitate navigation between those articles within English Wikipedia". Redlinks are not "articles within English Wikipedia". --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:32, 16 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hello all -- there's a current discussion at Wikipedia talk:Navigation templates about if and when retaining redlinks in navigation boxes is a good idea. Lockley (talk) 19:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

A redlink to a person's name should be avoided

  • I still think this needs to be removed "A redlink to a person's name should be avoided" it still means to NEVER create a redlink, and is being used that way in arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles. Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) (talk) 17:04, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
"Some people just hate redlinks in articles that they create." While that may or may not be true, that has nothing to do with the relevance of personal names being used as redlinks. Would you mind giving a link to one of these arguments to remove all redlinks in Wikipedia articles that cites "a redlink to a person's name should be avoided"? Without context I don't really think that's the case, because that seems like a generalization that has no relevance to the merits of the actual content. - Aoidh (talk) 17:27, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: As seen in the #Personal names section above, I recently commented about this. Flyer22 (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification of 'likelihood'

As I recently have had two reversions from the same person on the interpretation of 'likelihood', could we please clarify this in the guideline? I think that red links should be created when they link to valid titles - if it happens that they can be covered in other areas of the encyclopedia, then that is what redirects are for. I think the 'likelihood' is being confused into 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because there are few people on wikipedia to make them' or 'it's unlikely that articles will exist, because the topic is obscure'. I don't think that these are valid arguments, because Wikipedia is a work in progress, and lots of notable, verifiable, and valid topics are obscure if you are outside the field that they crop up in. I would like to see some clarification of what is likely on the article guideline page - I tried to add it in (my first link) but was reverted. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 21:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You can go ahead and mention my username; I don't mind. Yes, I reverted you at the Yaoi article. And I stated in that revert, "And how do we know they are WP:Notable? Provide proof on the article talk page. WP:Notable is also clear that not every notable topic should have its own article." You have posted this as your proof. I will respond there. But as for validity, creating a red link just because you think that the title is valid is not valid. Too often, an editor will create a red link just because he or she wants to see an article created for that topic, even when that topic is not WP:Notable or should not have a Wikipedia article per what is outlined in the WP:NOPAGE section of the WP:Notable guideline. Then we are left with an article on a non-WP:Notable topic or a WP:Stub for a topic that will very likely never expand beyond a stub. And, yes, like I stated to you in this revert, if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated "often," not "always." And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like.
I noted in the #Nav boxes NO red links section above that I will likely be starting a WP:RfC on that particular red link matter. There might be other things to start a WP:RfC on regarding this guideline, since editors are coming here and adding/removing anything they want to/from this guideline as though it's not a WP:Guideline that should typically have WP:Consensus before any significant changes are made to it. Flyer22 (talk) 21:40, 29 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer, I am not at all clear what it is that you disagree with, here. The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that? It seems incredibly reasonable, and clearly consistent with what is said elsewhere in the guideline. There's no change, here, just a clarification. On that note, what on earth does "Do not remove red links unless ... there is no article section to validly redirect the topic (see WP:NOPAGE)" mean? Josh Milburn (talk) 15:50, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Josh: To your second point, I think the clause about article sections means that a valid red link may be one where the target is a redirect to a section of an article where the notable subject is covered as part of a broader topic. That is the point of WP:NOPAGE. I have attempted to clarify the wording in the guideline. Feel free to tweak further as necessary, although – being a guideline – this point about redirects should probably remain in there unless discussed and consensus achieved to remove it. Of course, where the red link is a redirect, it's very easy to turn it blue by creating the redirect. Wdchk (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe I'm being dim here, but I still have very little idea of you are trying to say. Your new wording literally didn't make sense- "Do not remove red links unless ... a redirect to a section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)." Also, given that this point was only just added by Flyer, there's no need to get consensus to remove it- I'd say we need consensus to add it. In any case, if it's to stay, it needs to be clearer. I'm sorry if this sounds like a silly request, but could you say in simple English when you believe redlinks should be removed? Josh Milburn (talk) 16:49, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
At this point I should let @Flyer22 speak for herself. My interpretation, however, was that the point about an article section being a valid target for a red link was already in the guideline, per this edit summary. So the sentence you're having a problem with is an attempt at clarification, first by Flyer22, then by me. It's not a substantive change to the guideline, as far as I can see, but I might be wrong. Regarding clarity, I'll have to think further about that. Maybe someone else can help. Wdchk (talk) 17:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I'm none the wiser. How can "an article section being a valid target for a red link"? If it's a redirect, it's not a redlink? Josh Milburn (talk) 17:57, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

J Milburn, I know that you and the IP have discussed this guideline before, and that the IP contacted you to weigh in on this latest matter. It seems that I don't fully share your and the IP's views of the WP:Red link guideline. I've explained above and here at the Yaoi talk page how I feel about the guideline. You stated, "The user editing from 110.20.234.69 is simply adding that we should judge redlinks based on what articles we should have, rather than based on what we predict will be created. Do you disagree with that?" Yes, I partly disagree with that. I stated when reverting the IP, "obscurity is one of the things to consider; WP:Notability is clear that notability does not guarantee an article." And I stated above, "if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated 'often,' not 'always.' And I know that from several years of editing this site, and seeing various WP:AfDs and the like." When removing red links, it is often the case that editors are predicting what will be created, and I don't see a problem with that if the editor is using common sense and is taking Wikipedia's notability guidelines into account. I do see a problem with editors simply adding red links because they want an article created, or are hoping some WP:Newbie, who has no idea how to appropriately apply Wikipedia's notability guidelines, will create it. Like I told the IP at the Yaoi talk page, we have more than one Wikipedia notability guideline, including Wikipedia:Notability (events). WP:Secondary sources covering a topic does not automatically mean that the topic is WP:Notable or that it should have its own Wikipedia article.

As for what the WP:NOPAGE aspect that I added (and Wdchk tweaked) means, it means what Wdchk stated it means. And it was already noted in the guideline by the "In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name." part. I decided to make mention of it more explicit, especially since the IP had re-added the "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on that subject." piece. The IP's edit on that matter made it seem as though the subject should automatically be an article; I wanted to make it clear that the subject might be better served as content placed in an existing article. Flyer22 (talk) 23:00, 30 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How do we define a red link's 'likelihood' of becoming an article, if not plainly by the subject's notability and verifiability? There are already many warnings in this guideline on when not to create red links. I think that the bar of 'unlikelihood' is being set too low with cautions about obscurity. Dare I mention the other stuff on Wikipedia? A great deal of notable, verifiable, subjects are 'obscure' to someone, but are still very valid, encyclopedic topics. I also think that the concern that there are fewer hands for the work (Not brought up here, but a common media story about Wikipedia these days) is causing people to remove red links - 'what's the likelihood that someone would be interested in making an article on that topic?'.
If stubs are created (which isn't too likely these days, given my experience with the stringency of the articles for creation process... - my drafts typically get assessed as C-class on their entry into mainspace), then the editing process will find them eventually expanded into something half-decent or redirected to an article section or deleted. I sincerely doubt that there have ever been higher barriers to newbies creating stub articles on Wikipedia. (I am making a very bold claim here, because I would love to be proven wrong.)
I think there needs to be more said on how 'likelihood' is determined in this guideline, because in my experience, red links on subjects which are notable and verifiable are being removed - resulting in articles being orphaned from the start, and potentially not having people who would be interested in the topic (reading a related article) seeing the red link in that article's page and being enticed to create the article, or assist in drafting an article. I hope this helps clarify my concerns about how the 'likelihood' of a red link becoming an article is assessed, and helps move the discussion on. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 07:17, 1 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer, I've changed the guideline page to read "Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the redlink could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)." If I am understanding you correctly, this gives across the broad thrust of your claim. If that's all you are aiming to say, here, then I agree- if that's all you mean by saying that we shouldn't link to things just because they might be able to support an article, then we're on the same page. If that's not what you're saying, and you genuinely believe that we should be removing redlinks because they link to "obscure" topics which, though notable, verifiable and encyclopedic (etc.), are not something you think anyone will be bothered writing about, then I'm glad to say that your view is not currently reflected in the guideline. (Again, I'm not trying to be ignorant here, but I am having some difficulty in following what's being said...) Josh Milburn (talk) 08:07, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I've no opinion on the anime article or any link therein. I'm here because of my interest in the guideline- no other reason. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:11, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with this edit you made regarding the likelihood matter, since what warrants a Wikipedia article is a case-by-case matter (like I stated above, multiple WP:Secondary sources do not mean that the topic warrants a Wikipedia article), and I'm fine with this edit you made regarding the WP:NOPAGE guideline. As for removing a red link because it links to an obscure topic, yes, I (and many other editors) agree with that...if the removal is warranted; and I've seen many cases where the removal is warranted. I cannot stress enough that some people just want articles for topics even when those topics don't deserve an article whatsoever, and so then they toss in red links to achieve that. I'm tired of seeing lousy WP:Stubs, WP:Redundant forks, and other pages that should not be Wikipedia articles just because editors don't understand how WP:Notability works and that Wikipedia has more than one notability guideline, or because they are hoping that a WP:Newbie (who, again, doesn't understand our notability guidelines) will do the work for them.
And, yes, IP, many WP:Stubs are still created. And many of them never expand enough to be a worthwhile Wikipedia article. Flyer22 (talk) 08:23, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Also, Josh Milburn, going back to this edit you made regarding WP:NOPAGE, I don't understand what wasn't clear to you about the wording before you made that alteration. The text was stating that the red link could be a potential article or that it could be turned into a link to a section; in both cases, the link would no longer be a red link. Flyer22 (talk) 08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think part of the reason it was unclear to me (and I admit that this may be my problem, rather than yours) is that when someone talks about removing a redlink, I imagine there being no link, and that's certainly what the first part of the sentence was about. You were talking about replacing a redlink with a blue link- admittedly, this does involve the removal of the redlink. Concerning "I cannot stress enough that some people just want articles for topics even when those topics don't deserve an article whatsoever, and so then they toss in red links to achieve that." - yes, of course, I oppose red links to topics which "don't deserve" an article, but I don't think "obscurity" has anything to do with that. Wikipedia does and should cover a very wide array of deeply obscure topics. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:47, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't doubt that Wikipedia should cover obscure topics. But, again, what I stated above about obscurity is that "if the topic is obscure, it is often the case that it should not have a Wikipedia article. Note: I stated 'often,' not 'always.'" By that, I mean that when it is an obscure topic, it's often the case that it's either not WP:Notable or it cannot be expanded beyond a WP:Stub and would be better served as a piece to an already-existing article. Wikipedia already covers so much, and it's common that people don't search well enough to see if there is an existing article on the topic, or a place where the topic can be adequately covered, before creating an article. There is also the fact that Wikipedia is so big that they can accidentally overlook those existing articles. This is why WP:Redundant fork comments on intentional and unintentional WP:Redundant forks. Flyer22 (talk) 09:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer, have you seen many cases where the removal of the red link is unwarranted, too? In my experience, if a stub is created, it can't be created by a newbie, because the AFC process is such that it selects against casual article-making. Having to wait for a month before someone even looks at your page is very discouraging unless you have a firm belief in the notability and verifiability of the topic and the quality of your writing. I'm tired of having to fight for red links to notable, verifiable, encyclopedic topics. Newbies and people who edit without signing up are capable of reading the notability guidelines, just like anyone else is, and the AFC process funnels people towards the relevant guidelines for making an article. Are you certain that those stubs you see will never ever expand enough to be a worthwhile Wikipedia article? What do you consider to be a worthwhile article? The worst thing that you've said about red links is that they encourage stubs. Even if people pepper articles with red links because they want articles on those topics - why do you seem to see that overwhelmingly as a negative thing? Those red links might be on valid topics that could add context to the first article. Good red links help Wikipedia grow, and remind us that Wikipedia will never be finished. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 09:15, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
IP, you stated it yourself above -- Wikipedia is not as active as it used to be. I've been editing this site since 2007; and back then, WP:Stubs were expanded much more often. But even then, a good number of them should not have become articles. And a good number of them are still WP:Stubs. Some of them only have a few WP:Reliable sources to support them, as if that means that they should be Wikipedia articles. Yes, I generally do not see WP:Stubs as a good thing. WP:Stub even currently states, "A stub is an article deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject." I cannot help it that I generally don't see "article[s] deemed too short to provide encyclopedic coverage of a subject" as good things. And I've been clear above that "Wikipedia already covers so much, and it's common that people don't search well enough to see if there is an existing article on the topic, or a place where the topic can be adequately covered, before creating an article. There is also the fact that Wikipedia is so big that they can accidentally overlook those existing articles. This is why WP:Redundant fork comments on intentional and unintentional WP:Redundant forks." So I don't know what else to state to you on this topic. You asked, "if people pepper articles with red links because they want articles on those topics - why do you seem to see that overwhelmingly as a negative thing?" If you can't see why I see that as "[an] overwhelmingly [...] negative thing," given what I stated above, then I really do not see the point in continuing this discussion with you. Flyer22 (talk) 09:29, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I've already stated why I don't regard Wikipedia being less active as being a valid consideration for the removal of red links. Wikipedia will never be complete, it will always be a work in progress. Removing red links and arguing that stubs aren't found and expanded is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Removing red links leads to articles being orphaned from their (arguably delayed) inception and being unfindable (which would eventually lead to redundant forks). Being orphaned contributes to stubs remaining so for longer - because they're not well-linked and are harder to search for, potentially interested and knowledgeable people don't find and read the stub, and don't fix it.
I'm not sure where to go from here. What makes a red link likely to become a worthwhile article? (Beyond the manpower factor.) Can we please clarify this in the guideline? As it is, red links to valid topics are being removed for reasons which do not consider the topic's notability or verifiability, which contributes to the orphaning and delayed growth of stub articles. This guideline does not define the question of 'likelihood' in a clear way. This lack of definition means that a common understanding is difficult to reach - as I think we've been demonstrating. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 11:44, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I never stated that Wikipedia being less active is a valid consideration for the removal of red links. I've been very clear on what I mean, and I stand by it. You disagree, and I won't be agreeing with you. Furthermore, sources claiming that Wikipedia is less active than it used to be are quite clear that it is still very active, and they acknowledge reasons why it's less active -- such as the fact that Wikipedia already covers pretty everything there is to cover. In other words, they make it very clear that Wikipedia does not need to do much more growing. And that goes back to the points I've made about useless or silly WP:Stubs and WP:Redundant forks. Your fondness for red links will never be a view that I share. I was not speaking of WP:Orphans. Anyone wanting to know what I mean by "worthwhile" can Google the term. I am not speaking from a WP:IDON'TLIKEIT rationale on this matter, but from several years of experience editing this site. I doubt that you are anywhere close to being a WP:Newbie, so your experience with red link matters is different than mine for some other reason. And as for "likelihood," J Milburn already changed the wording to wording that you no doubt support. Flyer22 (talk) 12:01, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@J Milburn and Flyer22: Can we go back to this edit, please? It doesn't look like anything I was trying to say. That whole sentence is about "Do not remove red links unless ...". "Remove" as in "delete the double brackets". (Sure, we hope and expect that someone real soon will create a page for that term to turn the red link blue. However deciding whether the new page is an article or a redirect to a section is an entirely separate matter. What we are talking about in this part of the guideline is, right now, should the red link be there or not.) The text now reads, "Do not remove red links unless ... the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section ...". Sorry, but that is going to be misunderstood. Remove the red link and replace it with a link to a section ... when? I know we're having trouble finding the right words, but the process we're trying to describe is not complicated: (1) is the redlinked term notable? If yes, leave the red link in; if no, you can remove it. (2) Separate decision, no need to make this decision immediately – do we write about the notable term in its own article or in a section of another article about a broader topic? If a section, we create a redirect from the notable term to that section. But maybe we are over-complicating by trying to go into unnecessary detail about part (2) of the process. Here's an attempt to separate things out into a simpler explanation; what does everyone think?
"In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name. (Sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic – see WP:NOPAGE). Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's standards of notability." Wdchk (talk) 04:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as you can see in my "08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)" post above, I stated to Josh Milburn, "[G]oing back to this edit you made regarding WP:NOPAGE, I don't understand what wasn't clear to you about the wording before you made that alteration. The text was stating that the red link could be a potential article or that it could be turned into a link to a section; in both cases, the link would no longer be a red link." As for your proposal, Wdchk, I'd rather that the "Sometimes" sentence not be in parentheses. What do you think of wording the text as "or if the red link could be turned into a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic (see WP:NOPAGE)."?
On a side note: No need to WP:Ping me to this page since it's on my WP:Watchlist. Flyer22 (talk) 04:20, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wdchk, I prefer your alternative wording here to the previous wording. I think "inclusion" would be better than "notability", as notability isn't necessarily the only relevant concern. I am opposed to Flyer's suggestion- creating a monster sentence with lots of conjunctions is not helpful; it's obfuscatory. How about "A red link should not be removed from an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article. Note that, per WP:NOPAGE, it may sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic. Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria." I doubt this is perfect. Josh Milburn (talk) 07:59, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
My suggestion is the same as your wording, except I changed "could be replaced with a link" to "could be turned into a link." I changed it per what I stated in my "08:33, 2 May 2015 (UTC)" post, and your response to that. The current WP:NOPAGE wording is a mix of all three of our efforts. But I can be fine with either your or Wdchk's latest proposals (I already mentioned above that I prefer Wdchk's "Sometimes" sentence not be in parentheses). Flyer22 (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies- I have no preference between "turned into" or "replaced", but perhaps we could clarify that we mean "blue link". After all, a red link is still a link. Josh Milburn (talk) 08:42, 3 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm suggesting we leave out the part about "red link could be turned into / replaced with a blue link to a section" because that seemed to be a point at which we started to get confusing (see my previous comment 04:08, 3 May 2015). My reasoning is that someone who wants more info about linking to sections can go read about it at WP:NOPAGE. To avoid tying ourselves in knots, since this is the red link guideline I'm suggesting we focus mainly on why we would leave or remove a red link. I'm intentionally cutting out the explanation about converting red links to blue links because really that's a different topic (when do you create an article vs. when do you link to a section vs. when do you create a redirect, etc. – all those things documented elsewhere). I'm actually good with J Milburn's version of 07:59, 3 May 2015, with a minor copyedit:
"A red link should not be removed from an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article. Note that, per WP:NOPAGE, it may sometimes it may be appropriate to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic. Do not remove red links unless it is clear that the topic fails to meet Wikipedia's inclusion criteria." Wdchk (talk) 00:57, 4 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

In a situation where one person adds red links to a subject because they think it is notable, verifiable, and probably should have its own article, and someone else removes it because they think it falls under WP:NOPAGE (as in yaoi recently), does the current wording of the guideline provide enough guidance to allow such a dispute to be worked out? --110.20.234.69 (talk) 04:26, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I did not explicitly remove your links at the Yaoi article because of WP:NOPAGE; if I felt that your links covered WP:Notable topics, I would not have asked you to provide proof of the matter. After you provided sources, what you consider proof, I still doubted that the topics should be standalone articles; I still do. I'm not convinced that your red links in that case are WP:Notable. That's why I explicitly stated that multiple WP:Reliable sources noting a topic does not automatically mean that a topic is WP:Notable, and then I attempted to explain what I meant (all of this is documented at the Yaoi talk page).
I think that the latest wording that J Milburn and Wdchk suggested above is clear enough. And if it's not as clear as it can be and needs more detail, that should be addressed lower on the page instead of in the introduction. I'm also not sure that this edit you made is needed. Flyer22 (talk) 05:00, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I made that edit because all the other WP: style abbreviations on the page are explained or hidden behind a plain English explanation of what they are. I changed the BLP one for the same reason. Having the plain English there makes it clearer as to why someone should read that link, and will hopefully result in more click-throughs. --110.20.234.69 (talk) 05:58, 5 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Here we go again- navboxes

Per [1] the addition of a "no redlinks in navboxes" comment in this article flies in the face of reality and, more to the point, is being used as a bludgeon in a more targeted discussion at the navboxes article. The issue in editing these guidelines is clear: "a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article... Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic...Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished." Nowhere is this more important than in navboxes, to flag editors about what articles have yet to be written that are relevant to a topic. We have on editor who seems to have an obsession about removing redlinks from navboxes based on a random set of rules, often with little understanding of why redlinks are in given articles - while wikipedia has many articles, it truly is not finished and redlinks help encourage people to create articles. Thus, this one-man crusade needs to end. Montanabw(talk) 08:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an addition. It is a long-standing part of the guideline (I can see it at least as far back as 2010) that was removed without prior discussion on 29 April. --Rob Sinden (talk) 08:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal regarding redlinks in navigation templates

There's something very wrong about the notion that nav boxes shouldn't have red links. If content is missing on a subject, red links in a nav box are one of the most productive ways to get an editor to blue link them. Especially if an editor declares that they are ploughing through them. Obviously 90% + red links and very few blue links isn't really a good idea, but a healthy number of red links should be perfectly acceptable. Particularly if an editor is actively working on filling them to remove them in the process citing WP:RED is disruptive. We have a problem here in that Rob Sinden is treating this as a legal enforcement and it's a poorly thought out guideline and counterproductive to development on wikipedia.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:31, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline is fine. Navboxes are nothing more than a navigational aid to help users navigate between existing articles here on the English Wikipedia. Redlinks hinder navigation. Redlinks are better off filled in through a list article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No, you hinder development. How does a red link affect navigation? So long as there's a fair few blue links readers can ignore what is missing and click them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Take a look at {{Anthony Trollope}}. Not a useful navigational tool. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, Doc. The guidelines are flawed and should be more used more flexibly. There are those who cannot act with even the smallest deviation from the guidelines, regardless of how unhelpful those guidelines are, but they are best ignored for the long-term good of the encyclopaedia. - SchroCat (talk) 12:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think we're going to need an RFC. It seems there is massive polarity in the community on this issue. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • (ec 3 times) Support red links in navboxes: as Dr. Blofeld says, missing important topics related to a subject would make fine points of departure to develop articles. This came true for Bach cantatas, where estimated hundred articles were created from red links which gave the proper article name, - while if you wait for random filling that consistency is lost. - A person disliking a red link could create a stub almost as fast as deleting the red link. - The navbox is seen by people reading an article, - a list article rather not. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
ps: How do people feel about red ill links, for topics notable in a different Wikipedia, example de [Orgelbau Mebold]? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Navboxes are not for interwiki linking. Per WP:NAVBOX: "Navigation templates are a grouping of links used in multiple related articles to facilitate navigation between those articles within English Wikipedia". (Bolding mine). --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Er, aren't redlinks already allowed? WP:REDNOT states Red links generally are not included in either See also sections or in navigational boxes, nor linked to through templates such as {{Main}} or {{Further}}, since these navigation aids are intended to help readers find existing articles. An exception is red links in navboxes where the red-linked articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referenda, presidents, sports league seasons, and the like. Number 57 15:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    • Let's keep it simple: remove the navbox bit, that has been the subject of this dispute. Use redlinks in navboxes subject to the general guideline for WP:RED, i.e. In general, a red link should be allowed to remain in an article if it links to a term that could plausibly sustain an article, but for which there is no existing candidate article, or article section, under any name. Do not remove red links unless you are certain that Wikipedia should not have an article on the subject, or if the red link could be replaced with a link to an article section where the subject is covered as part of a broader topic ...Good red links help Wikipedia—they encourage new contributors in useful directions, and remind us that Wikipedia is far from finished. Montanabw(talk) 17:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • And just to be clear on this, I am completely opposed to what you are suggesting – I think it's a very bad idea to apply the policy you are suggesting to Navboxes. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Revision proposal

I propose that the guideline be changed to something along the lines of: "Providing that there are at least two or three active blue links in navigation boxes, it is acceptable to have a number of red links. Red links can indicate that important articles are missing and be a productive way of inviting readers to build content and fill them. However, an excessive number of red links which far exceed the number of blue links is ill-advised, and editors should refrain from adding excessive red links to templates unless they are actively working through them and intend to fill them all.

  • Support (as the proposer)♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really think this needs a proper RfC. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    this is functioning as an RFC, and what better place to do it then on the talk page of the problematic guideline page.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, would not even need the ratio of blue to red, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose, but really think an RfC is needed. Navboxes are nothing more than a navigational aid to help users navigate between existing articles here on the English Wikipedia. A sea of redlinks hinders navigation. Redlinks are better off filled in through a list article. --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Did you not read the proposed revision? A sea of red links, far greater than the number of blue links is ill-advised unless the editor adding them is actively working through them blue linking them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    And of course this is nonsense because a navbox could have just a handful of entries which wouldn't necessitate a "list article". The Rambling Man (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Red links will not hinder navigation (how stupid do you think our readers really are that they cannot recognise a common way of showing a non-link?) and dumping links into a list article seems to me that you somehow consider list articles to somehow be second class cizitens here, which is against every consensus on the point I've seen. - SchroCat (talk) 12:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The guideline reads: "An exception is red links in navboxes where the red-linked articles are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referenda, presidents, sports league seasons, and the like." Is this not sufficient? Alakzi (talk) 13:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Obviously not because Sinden continues to cause disruption for editors working with red links. He's convinced that any red link is an evil and must be removed.♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    As far as I can make out, there was no specific trigger for this, other than my trying to maintain status quo on the guideline. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    The guideline is sufficiently clear on the point that any red link is not evil. The vast majority of articles listed in navboxes are part of a set, and are covered by this provision. I don't see what needs to be changed here. Alakzi (talk) 13:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongly oppose – redlinks are absolutely useless in Navboxes (outside of the exception Alakzi mentions), and allowing for this has ultimately led to the creation of lots of Navboxes that are almost entirely redlinks!! Keeping the guideline to excluding redlinks from Navbox should be maintained – heck, the enforcement of such should actually ramp up!! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And I've said nav boxes like that are ill advised. There has to be a good balance. A few red links in a template. notable missing articles can often be a productive thing. Making wikipedia the most comprehensive source should be the ultimate goal, and if we are hampering editors from working together to achieve that within reason or reverting editors who want to build them then it's counterproductive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
They absolutely are ill-advised. But some like that already exist on en Wiki right now. If the people in this thread have their way, Navboxes like that will not only be "allowed" – they'll be encouraged! --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Not at all, you are wholly mistaken. I used a red-linked navbox to create 158 good articles and 3 featured articles in one year. How much did you do last year, other than make weak claims around red links? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Question — Why not simply leave non-existent articles as unlinked titles? Just enter the text and leave off the brackets, the text will be black and it is clear to readers that there is no link. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 13:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
How does that aid navigation? --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:58, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
1) Remember WP:RF. What would a casual reader make of being directed to a page creation form when they are looking for information? I would suggest that having no link is clearer and less disruptive to the reader.
2) The suggestion is also a way to diffuse an ongoing and increasingly rancorous argument! :-)
The question remains, it's not a binary choice. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:20, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, for a limited amount. The amount of red links should, imnho, be kept low and mainly highlight the most important pages that are missing from the encyclopedia. I do prefer leaving 'Red links' black, per above comment, just unlinked and not red-linked. This shows that an important article is missing but at the same time doesn't draw the eye to the red, which is the colour that the brain "sees" first, attention-wise. Randy Kryn 13:52, 17 2015 (UTC)
    Navboxes are not a substitute for lists; they must contain links. The way we indicate that a notable topic (i.e. one that would deserve its own article and hence be part of a navbox) is missing is by means of a red link. Alakzi (talk) 13:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You are probably right, I just wish the color wasn't so harsh and disrupting to templates. Would people mind if a less-harsh colour were introduced on some templates through coding? For example, it's a fact that police will give a red car more tickets, or at least notice its actions, for that reason - that the brain registers 'Red' before any other colour. Randy Kryn 14:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest support. The redlinks are part of the sum of all human knowledge. They let the reader/editor know that something is missing. They are as important as the bluelinks. Check out the templates in Category:African economy templates and you'll find lots of redlinks. Check out {{Economy of Cameroon}} in particular... lots and lots of redlinks. Removing these redlinks, IMO, is akin to saying, "We are exerting control over knowledge. If the article has been written, we'll account for it here. If it hasn't been written, we don't want you to know about it." List articles with redlinks are important, too, but it's comparing apples and oranges to say that one can have lots of redlinks while the other cannot. --Rosiestep (talk) 14:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I love this idea. It sounds like a great way to encourage people to create content, including the aim to build this encyclopaedia. I don't think the ratio should be of concern. JAGUAR  14:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's how it works in theory, not in practice. Also, the point is Navboxes are not the places to use redlinks to encourage content creation... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I think this should turn into a real RfC (with a template and all), so that input is gathered from a wide and public range of users rather than just people who happen to have this page on their watchlist or people who happened to see a semi-related short-lived ANI. It's not too late to turn it into a public RfC, as it was just started today I think. I think a public RfC will increase the likelihood of whatever consensus "sticking" without being disputed again in the near future; also it would lessen the temptation to canvass, or to inappropriately canvass. Short of a real RfC, I predict the status quo is going to stick longterm, whatever the outcome here. (Anyway, don't ask me to change this to an RfC, as I didn't start the poll and I'm taking this page off my watch list.) Cheers, Softlavender (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support with minor wording change. "At least two or three" is pointless: three is implicitly at least two. The risk is that some future wikipinhead will then argue that a template with four bluelinks should be deleted because it is neither two nor three. You know we have people like that.
I would favour "at least one bluelink", for the reason of a simple use case. Consider a naval ship class. One class article, six ships, one notable battle. It's very likely we will first encounter this with no more than the class article (i.e. one bluelink). Yet there is already value in such a navbox, for listing the ship names and indicating their relevance to the battle. This has value to the reader, it is useful, we should allow it. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There is absolutely zero value to a navbox with one blue link. What are you navigating between? --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Navboxes (and lists of redlinks generally) have more value than just navigation to completed articles. They define lists. They illustrate the breadth of a topic. They also indicate targets for article creators (and consistent naming across sets is awkward to manage, so they have value for that too).
Nothing about a policy that redlinks are acceptable makes them compulsory. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Lists are one thing, Navboxes are another. I agree that redlinks are fine (maybe even "good") in the context of lists. But they definitely aren't "good" in Navboxes... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a good example (cited in the 2010 Railways discussion linked above). A complex list and navbox, with naming that changed over two periods of history and so many of these links are piped. It was extremely useful to get these two lists sorted out at the start, from some consistent sources, and then to work on the articles as we could. When created, this template (which is one of many similar) was bright red. It's now mostly blue. BilCat's observation that in the year after the aircraft project set up similar templates (with lots of red) it majorly increased article creation rates for linked articles is also relevant. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Per Dr. Blofeld. Caden cool 21:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The edit-warred text started the sentence with "Red links generally are not included" (emph added). Combined with the standard guideline disclaimer at the top of the page, this really seems like more of a WP:SOFIXIT issue if the nav template is being populated with articles that will soon be created. See also WP:CREEP and WP:LAME; we do not need instructions for everything. The specific text proposed seems over-detailed for a guideline. VQuakr (talk) 14:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: I stated in the #Nav boxes NO red links discussion above that just like the WP:See also section, WP:NAVBOXES are meant to direct readers to existing articles, not indicate that an article should be created. The text on this is stating that a topic that does not have a Wikipedia article should not be listed in the WP:NAVBOX; the guideline already addresses the one exception to red links being in the navboxes -- the succession box aspect. Otherwise, they should not be there. I don't want people using the navbox to stuff a bunch of redlinks. I also suggest that a WP:RfC is started on this matter, and that this is possibly advertised at the WP:Village pump. Given the sudden influx of editors here, and the current full-protection, it's clear that this matter has already been publicized. Flyer22 (talk) 14:26, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose revising the existing guideline, as proposed. Red links are already permitted in navboxes, but they may not predominate. The proposed change potentially opens the floodgates to the rapid creation of navboxes with many red links and few, if any blue links to existing stand-alone articles. The purpose of navboxes is not to encourage the creation of new article on subjects that any given navbox creator thinks are needed. Article creation must absolutely remain anchored in Wikipedia's concept of "notability"; what is being proposed here will encourage the creation of more articles on non-notable subjects, lead to more disputes over article notability, and further burden our AfD processes. While allowing that some red links are permitted in navboxes, where the subjects of such red links are arguably notable and for which articles are likely to be created in the future, the basic rule of thumb should remain "create content first, then create navboxes to navigate among then-existing articles." I'm not sure what specific dispute, problem or special case is driving experienced editors like Dr. Blofeld, Schrocat and Gerda Arendt (all of whom should know better) to support this sweeping and ill-conceived proposal, but I urge you to find a more specific solution to your problem rather than foisting a radical and sweeping change on our well-established understanding of when navboxes, including red links, are appropriate. This is a very bad idea; the idea that a navbox might include no blue links at all is just goofy. Wikipedia does not suffer from a shortage of navboxes, and there are far better ways to encourage the creation of new content regarding notable subjects. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 14:28, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Did you even bother to read the proposal Dirtlawyer1? Since where do I advocate "the idea that a navbox might include no blue links at all". I said provided that the nav box has a minimum of two or three blue links and that the number of red links are not excessive in proportion to the blue links. A balance where there are a number of blue links and a few red ones to try to improve comprehension of a topic, without excess. Sinden uses these guidelines as a formal policy, and in doing so hampers editors from producing content. You support that?♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but other people followed up on you suggesting that there needn't be any guideline requiring blue links, or at least suggesting that an "acceptable ratio" of each in unneeded. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 15:55, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think common sense is needed, case by case. Ultimately I am proposing this because I see preventing editors from adding red links to nav templates as lessening our potential growth as a resource.♦ Dr. Blofeld 15:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Dr. B: "Did you even bother to read the proposal?" Affirmative, Dr. B, I did. I'm a regular participant in TfD discussions, and I know from experience that the problem is not what you describe. I also recognize several of the participants in this discussion as editors who believe that an anything-goes approach to navboxes would be appropriate, including some of the "support" comments above, as well as one editor who is overly enthusiastic in his interpretation and enforcement of the existing guideline. There must remain a common-sense rule of thumb pursuant to which there are (a) a minimum of three blue links to existing stand-alone articles (not redirects or section links to the same article), and (b) a majority of the links in any given navbox also must be blue links as described. That serves the purpose of WP:NAVBOX while exercising common sense with a dash of WP:IAR. That's been the effective interpretation for the five years I have participated in TfDs.
Dr. B: "I think common sense is needed, case by case." I could not agree with you more. Common sense is required, but emasculating the existing standard to permit red links to predominate any given navbox is a very bad idea. At its core, this is a content dispute that threatens to gut our existing guideline. If you have a particular navbox with at least three blue links and at least half of the total links are blue, and you feel that Robsinden or any other editor is targeting said navbox with a measure of over-enthusiasm, ping me. I think you will find me ready, willing and determined to apply the common-sense standard you advocate above. And that can be done within the existing language of the guideline. That also assumes that the navbox's red link topics are arguably notable per WP:N or other specific notability guideline. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 17:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Dr. Blofeld: Ultimately I am proposing this because I see preventing editors from adding red links to nav templates as lessening our potential growth as a resource. That sounds like a behavioral problem that really does not have its root cause in this guideline. Creeping up the instructions won't solve this; the editors removing the redlinks without thinking need to be coached. VQuakr (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Red Herring: How about black links? These are not links at all, but may be useful when the titles in a navbox are part of a series, some have articles and some are very unlikely to get articles. Maybe the guideline should mention the possibility. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Mayors of Smallville
1776–1880
George Washington • Fred Smith • Johann K. McMahon • Joe Who • Abraham Lincoln • What's-his-name • John Doe

Arbitrary break 1

  • Support: Blofeld has a clear idea, and it is clear that redlinks can outnumber bluelinks, which occasionally will happen. That said, I wonder if it it easier and simply remove the navbox exception to the general policy. While I do agree that a navbox should not be "aspirational" with 90%+ redlinks, a rule like "a navbox must be foo percent bluelinks" isn't really very helpful, encourages the creation of poor-quality stubs just to make links blue, and is just more grounds for spatting. Every template is different; for example, {{The_Boat_Race}} is complete. However, it was not always thus, as User:The Rambling Man can no doubt verify. In contrast, {{KentuckyDerby}} is incomplete and has many red links, but, like the Boat Race, is a topic where each year's event should eventually have an article created; clearly there is some minor progress being made, as it is under half redlinks. But the worst-case scneario is what has happened with {{Belmont Stakes}}, where the Rob Sinden rule appears to be applied; only the very few race articles with articles are even in the template, all bluelinked, yet the race goes back to... 1866- it's 10 years older than the Kentucky Derby! Has the dearth of redlinks in the navbox actually discouraged editors from creating articles? Out of sight, out of mind? Montanabw(talk) 17:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note – in the {{Belmont Stakes}} Navbox, and least most of the missing articles aren't redlinked – I find that highly preferable to the 'redlinked' alternative... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Side comment: Forcing redlinks into lists only is actually counterproductive and goes against other guidelines, as it leads to redlinks to obscure topics languishing unnoticed; I know of many lists where redlinks are ruthlessly excluded until the article is created, particularly bogus links of "notable residents" to various city and state articles. Montanabw(talk) 17:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I started with one blue link and 160 red links. I ended with 161 blue links. Wikipedia has 158 good articles and 3 featured articles as a result. I'm not suggesting this will always be the case, but the motivation was there, to clear off the red links. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Solid Support -- per Dr. Blofeld and others. I see no reason why red links here cannot be used. CassiantoTalk 20:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - to bring it in line with common editing of articles - there is no reason to treat templates differently. And the {{Belmont Stakes}} template is an excellent reason why we SHOULD link redlinks in templates. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Navboxes already commonly contain redlinks, and I can't see any good argument for stopping this practice. Yes, there are going to be edge-cases, but these can be dealt with individually- the guidelines should not be standing in the way of redlinks in navboxes. Blofeld's wording seems sesnsible. Josh Milburn (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The Rambling Man, I alerted WP:FLC, per your suggestion. As for red links in navboxes, I noted above that I see navboxes similar to how I see the WP:See also section. Both are meant to direct readers and editors to existing articles, not urge them to create articles. An editor throwing red links into a navbox because they want articles at those links, likely even when those topics are not WP:Notable, is not something I will support. Flyer22 (talk) 20:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: SMcCandlish alerted Help talk:Link. And, SMcCandlish, regarding this edit summary, remember that, like I noted at Wikipedia talk:Don't feed the divas, I am female. Feel free to use feminine pronouns in reference to me. Also, The Rambling Man replied to my "20:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)" post on my talk page, and I responded. Flyer22 (talk) 21:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK; I don't always remember people's genders correctly on here, thus the "he/she'. I'm drawing a blank on the Rambling Man context. Was that related a previous conversation we had?  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I noted The Rambling Man aspect because instead of replying to my "20:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)" post (seen above) here on this talk page, he replied on my talk page. Since I dislike disjointed discussion, I wanted to make it clear on this talk page that The Rambling Man responded to my "no red links in the navbox" reply to him. Flyer22 (talk) 21:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Update: I also alerted this, this, this, this and this WikiProject to this discussion; I chose them because those are the WikiProjects I visit the most and they significantly deal with navboxes. People are free to alert any other WikiProject, of course. Flyer22 (talk) 06:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Like this one; I used to frequent that WikiProject. Flyer22 (talk) 06:55, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Red, Support Black: If the goal is to foster article creation, then whether a non-existent article appears as black text or a red link should be immaterial; those interested in article creation will get the message. If that's not the goal I'd like a more explicit statement of what problem this proposed revision is attempting to solve. Agreed with others that this should be handled as, at minimum, an RFC. DonIago (talk) 20:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope, if an article is notable enough to be created then it should be linked. It's very simple. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    You saying it doesn't make it so, but thanks for offering your opinion. DonIago (talk) 01:42, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Um, yes, saying it is so is absolutely fundamental to redlink and Wikipedia. It's very simple! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope, if an article is notable enough to be created then it should created and then linked. You're right, this is simple! DonIago (talk) 20:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That's an argument against all redlinks. You sure you want to go there? Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 20:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hilarious. Doniago, you clearly have no idea what redlinks are all about. Fundamental misunderstanding klaxon!! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    It wasn't a particularly serious argument, anymore then I think TRM's argument was particularly serious. As for the klaxon, I can only hope it was a red alert klaxon. I suppose it would be pointless to note that a) my sole opinion probably isn't worth this level of discussion, and b) if it is, then accusing me of having a "fundamental misunderstanding" rather than actually explaining what the misunderstanding is and trying to convince me to change my view isn't very persuasive; in fact, it seems to be having the opposite effect. DonIago (talk) 06:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support this amendment is needed before countless navboxes are wrecked by certain forces. There is nothing inherently wrong with red links in templates in the same way it can be beneficial to have red links in articles. Strongly encourages article creation. --Jules (Mrjulesd) 20:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I agree strongly with the rationale. I've been reverted on this issue in the past and also agree that having the red links in the template might motivate others to create the missing articles. --Gonnym (talk) 20:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notice: I have renamed the thread neutrally (preserving the original promotional title as an anchor) and changed the pointers I found to it to use the neutral wording. It's seriously process-transgressive to use hyperbolic "act now!" headings on proposals, and biases the proceedings, and it tricks people who want to neutrally notify other pages of the proposal into accidentally WP:CANVASSing, because their notice will contain the "advocacy" wording. The closer should strongly consider that !votes before this post were made when the proposal and most or all "advertising" of it had strongly non-neutral wording. — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  20:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest possible oppose, with two and only two exceptions that definitely should be made: Rationale for oppose: This idea totally perverts the express purpose of nav templates, which are to help readers navigate to the best already existing content we have that is central to a topic area. Furthermore, the wishy-washy wording in this is absolutely toothless, and will do nothing at all to curtail the creation of useless, "look how terrible WP is" red-farms, like this one. It's arguably acceptable to bludgeon readers with "click here! create a new article!" red-linking in some contexts, like in the middle of article prose (some say), or (more likely) in list articles, where a redlink can indicate missing information in a list that is supposed to be complete. But many even disagree with that rationale and scope; the issue has been discussed many times, and consensus has increasingly disfavored redlinking, with the result that MOS and content guidelines have limited it more and more over time. This proposal runs quite radically against that consensus, but not just going the other direction, but doing so in a context where redlinks are especially undesirable.

    Exception 1: Permit it when a) the list is of a finite set of things all of which are included in the template, and b) every possible member of the list is unquestionably notable (i.e. we will, undoubtedly, eventually have a blue link at all of them). So, "mayors of New York City", "Chevrolet sports cars", "member states of the United Nations". Not "novels by [anyone]", "Olympic skiers", or (the example I linked to) "cattle breeds of Italy". The trains example template higher up the page would qualify. The Mayors of Smallville one would not, because it's not complete, just listing a few alleged notables.

    Exception 2: Permit it when a) the list is a progressive sequence (usually numbers, e.g. years), and b) we will undoubtedly eventually have a blue link at all of them in the template because they are categorically, unquestionably notable (e.g. years, decades, centuries), but c) the list may or may not be complete (e.g. because it is divided into multiple templates for more than one series of articles, or our coverage will not exceed a certain range.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:20, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    So, to summarise that massive text outburst, you support red links most of the time unless they point to things that probably won't ever have articles. Just like WP:REDLINK. Marvellous. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Nope. I don't think you read very carefully. Instead of going out of your way to make a grouchy "tl;dr" point, just do the "r" part. It costs far less of both our time, and the closer's.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    No-one's going to "read very carefully", do us all a favour and just summarise your position compared to my summary, or else you'll suffer the usual ignominy of having your lengthy outburst completely overlooked time and again. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Specific recommendations for what the guideline should say is not an "outburst", it's specific recommendations for what the the guideline should say. Just because you don't read very carefully (which doesn't bode well for people taking your input serious) doesn't mean no one does. Anyone closing RfCs usually does. I'd suggest some WP:TEA, but I think WP:DECAF is more in order. Someone should write that one.  :-/ I wonder how many more insults it will take before you've exceeded the length of my on-topic post?  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Not sure anyone will bother to count. You kind of made your point, but in the wash up, don't expect it to be considered, less is, after all, more. Fin. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Fair enough. :-)  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  21:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, as long as the text does make it clear that we are encouraging only red links to articles with real chances of inclusion. We cannot ignore the inescapable truth that some articles will never be able to exist under our current standards due to the lack of notability and we should not encourage anyone to create them, only to have them eventually deleted or redirected. Victão Lopes Fala! 22:09, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I come down quite cleanly on the side of red links should be banned or added only with certain and standard exceptions. Navboxes are clearly to navigate within Wikipedia (per WP:NAVBOX), and a red link is not yet in Wikipedia. SMcCandlish's suggestions go in the right direction, but I wonder whether you get into, er, "questionable" territory about what is "unquestionably going to be notable" (if it were unquestionably notable, is there not a chance that the article should exist already? ;). To quote myself from a discussion at WT:NAV:

    removal of red links from a navbox necessarily follows from the fact that navigation templates provide navigation within Wikipedia, not to red link pages (which aren't a part of Wikipedia yet). [...] I believe the text Red links should be avoided unless they are very likely to be developed into articles still sufficiently says what should be said--that red links should be avoided... not removed or banned from all navboxes. (Take care that WP:IAR isn't the only rationale you provided for keeping red links in a navbox.)

    As a comment in favor of very few or zero red links, it's easier to maintain a navbox with links which are unequivocally blue linked (without redirects) for a large number of topic areas, including works, creators of works, and fiction, as broad classes of topics if no others. I imagine biology might have a similar need for management.

    A point I would also like to make is that while navboxes are lists (of links), they are not lists. Navboxes have zero need to be "complete" and I see this as a serious mischaracterization of what navboxes are actually used for. (Red links in lists, OTOH, it depends on page-specific desire.)

    People with the use case of creation of new articles should be encouraged to write a list article; a navbox is unnecessary and frankly undesirable for coordination of such work, because it provides zero benefit above and beyond even the most elementary of lists (which would likely have other helpful organization-oriented information such as dates, groupings, comments and notes that might be used to start articles, and so forth).

    That said, I personally tend to boldly remove red links where I see them from navboxes, and if someone thinks they're worth keeping (such as a number of the "content creators" above), I might enter into the BRD cycle with those persons. Subject matter experts I will also take into that cycle in general. I find that most genial editors don't care or are agreeable to removal of red links, especially when the rationale is explained to them about why red links in a navbox are undesirable.

    As regards "black links", I find the same rationale applicable: navboxes are meant to navigate, and black links don't help you do that. Users interested in a topic which one might expect to be covered in a navbox usually have a suitable list to review, or in some cases have the topic of the navbox to review. I have seen some frank messes of navboxes, and black and red links, and redirect and anchor links, are usually why. Fundamentally, it's a violation of the single responsibility principle to attempt to make navboxes do something which they are really bad at. --Izno (talk) 22:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC) PS: Just to make it clear, I also oppose the exact proposal made, rather than the general suggestion of concern. --Izno (talk) 19:44, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Re: 'what is "unquestionably going to be notable"' – I mean it is categorically notable (I forget where that list it, but countries, mountain ranges, etc.), or already passes WP:GNG (not by assumption, but by actually checking). 'if it were unquestionably notable, is there not a chance that the article should exist already?' – then it wouldn't be a redlink; i.e. it should have an article and will be someday, because already unquestionably notable. It's not true that all navboxen have zero need to be complete, I would say, but the condition is rare. It's more common that for many of them it's desirable that they be so. But for a large number of them (probably a high supermajority) it's impossible for them to be complete, either at all, or without loads of non-notable entries. In the latter case, if the NN entries are encyclopedic (are in a list article), then they can be included as section links to their entry in the list, eliminating the redlinking. Absolutely agree on this: 'People with the use case of creation of new articles should be encouraged to write a list article; a navbox is unnecessary and frankly undesirable for coordination of such work'. You experience of agreenableness to remove redlinks is much better than mine, heh. Agreed on black links; they're worse than red in practical terms even if less visually annoying.  — SMcCandlish ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ʌ≼  22:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    As regards notability, I understood the point, I just wanted to agree that it's rather rare that something is notable, well-known, but doesn't have an article (as I noted, our coverage of biology is a fun case when you start talking about all of the species in a particular genus and start making the supposition that that set of information needs a navbox).

    Section links I have a problem with per the essay-guidance at WP:NAV.

    Regards my experience, a lot of my work regarding navboxes is related to cleaning the classes of content I noted above, such as fiction and works navboxes. I've very rarely been reverted on my WP:NAV-related changes to such navboxes. --Izno (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    FWIW, WP:MCB topics do have a fair number of redlinkful navboxes, like {{Protein tyrosine phosphatases}}, or collections of secondary metabolites. As a mechanism for encouraging article creation, a list article would be far inferior to a navbox that directly presents the redlinks to a reader with an evident interest in a very specific topic area. Opabinia regalis (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    @Opabinia regalis: I was thinking more along the lines of taxonomy than medical or organic compounds and chemistry. That said, I think there's also a mistaken assumption here also which may be being relied on by a large number of editors in this discussion: red links are rarely created by new users (because, well, they can't and haven't been able to in a while). So clearly such red links are only going to be filled in by (semi-)experienced users. And those users can just as easily create a list (either a stand alone list or an embedded one) to organize their work; again, that comes with other benefits that I've noted earlier in this context. --Izno (talk) 19:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anons can't create articles, but newly registered accounts certainly can. And there are plenty of opportunities in the taxonomy navboxes too: see e.g. {{Bacteria classification}}.
    I am baffled at this recurring theme that a list is a suitable replacement for a navbox whose contents are incomplete. The redlinks in a list are only visible from the list article (i.e., to pretty much nobody). The redlinks in a navbox are visible from a series of related articles, encouraging article creation by people with an evident interest in a very specific topic area. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Anons certainly can create articles - I created five or six drafts before registering, all of which were accepted. Alakzi (talk) 20:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    True, that should be "can't create articles directly in mainspace". Arguably, avoiding AfC is now one of the main benefits of registering for people here to do content work. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I truly do not understand the hatred for redlinks shown here. The idea that the links in navboxes are _only_ for existing content is ludicrous and ignores the additional information that the redlinks can add, forex the other ships in the class or the other participants in the battle, for articles in my field. There were 68 Riga-class frigates built by the Soviets and there are only two blue links among all that sea of red. You cannot tell me that a reader is blinded by all those redlinks and cannot see if there's an article on one of those ships or not. The redlinks in the navbox are very handy for article creation and have a proven record of encouraging editors to turn them into blue links. I've used them that way myself to ensure that I have a properly formatted title, etc. when I begin writing articles. Deactivating the red links by turning them into ordinary text is even moronic because you've just removed the easy button for article creation. And all because some people dislike the color scheme?! Consider me boggled. I'm not much bothered by any perpetual red links; trying to keep them from being created is likely to cost more time and effort than would be required to set up a redirect. Editors can deal with that sort of thing as they happen, as far as I'm concerned.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 22:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sturmvogel 66: There were 68 Riga-class frigates built by the Soviets and there are only two blue links among all that sea of red - That sort of topic is already allowed. The reason [for me] to oppose are topics like types of software, lists of software, bands in a given genre... with no real opportunity to provide sources in a navbox, many navboxes will inevitably become a free-for-all for spam and making things up. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strongest support. Of course red links should be retainable in navigation templates. Of course. The proposal is so self-evident and reasonable I wonder why it needs to be documented. On all this page I don't see a single logical argument against it. There IS a lot of circular repeated verbal chaff about defintions and precedent and process and "what navboxes were MEANT to do" that reads like a parody of a wikipedia dispute. None of it is remotely convincing. Dr. Blofeld, sincere thanks for doing what shouldn't even be necessary. --Lockley (talk) 22:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support redlinks in navboxes (and anywhere else they might encourage article creation or enquiry; anywhere else on Wikipedia, that is, I don't want to open my front door tomorrow and be showered with redlinks). Belle (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weakly Opposed - I see no strong need to change the current guideline. The guideline already allows redlinks in navboxes where the scope is a discrete and limited set (such as the example of Bach Cantatas). That is appropriate. In such cases, there is a high likelihood (even an expectation) that the set will be completed (ie articles on each member of the set will be written)... the red links are beneficial for highlighting which members of the set still need articles.
However, many topic areas that have navbox scopes are a lot less focused or are completely unlimited .... the list of potential articles within the scope is open ended. For navboxes in these topic areas, there is no discrete "set" to complete. A redlink in such cases would simply be a "request" that an article be written... with no expectation that anyone will ever write the requested article. In such cases, redlinks simply clutter up the navbox and hinder navigation to existing articles. Besides, Navboxes are not really the appropriate venue to post a "request" for an article... there are lots of other venues for that (the most appropriate venue being the relevant WikiProject pages). Blueboar (talk) 23:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional oppose - I oppose unless each red link is monitored by software which automatically logs the creation date and removes the link if it is still red after a suitable period. --Epipelagic (talk) 01:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Bizarre. How long is a "suitable period"? Wikipedia is a work in perpetual progress, remember? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please try and argue coherently instead of resorting to terms like "bizarre". This proposal is going to open Wikipedia to a new round of non-contributing lazy users, this time ones who add random red links everywhere but don't create articles themselves. Like the ones who add "citation needed" tags everywhere but don't look for citations themselves. Your position is that just because you personally behave responsibly after adding red links that all users will behave the same way. I think not. The new guideline will create unproductive time sinks for editors who want to cull unsuitable red links, since the onus will now be on the person who wants the link removed to prove the topic lacks notability. It should be the other way round, with the person who created the red link being required to prove notability. If a topic warrants an article, it is no big deal for any competent editor to create a stub. If a red link remains red for a long period of time, that indicates the red link is achieving nothing and the topic should never have been red linked in the first place. A bot which scans Wikipedia from time to time, removing long standing red links would keep the red tide under control. Just what time lapse would be suitable would be matter for community discussion. I would think a few months, perhaps a year. Someone else on this page suggested a few days. If an editor thinks a topic should have an article but doesn't want to write the full article themselves, they should be encouraged to create a stub rather than just red linking it. --Epipelagic (talk) 04:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're working from axioms that don't have general acceptance, like the ridiculous idea that adding a [citation needed] could possibly be irresponsible. I've tracked down hundreds, if not thousands of citations. Yet I will not hesitate to add a [cn] to anything I see that requires citation, even if I haven't the slightest inclination to follow up myself. I wholly reject the very idea that that might be in any sense of the word "irresponsible", and suggest that discouraging the pointing out of unsourced text is itself irresponsible—and reprehensible. Your prejudice against redlinks is on similar shaky grounds—we do not need a bot going around to "keep the red tide under control"—the only way they should be controlled is to have human eyes determine the likelihood of the redlink ever becoming blue. Removing redlinks without first determining if they should have been removed in the first place is horribly lazy and irresponsible. I would strong oppose the very suggestion of any such bot. The only excuses for removing a redlink are (a) WP:OVERLINK and (b) determing through conducting the research that an article is unlikely to be sourceable. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 09:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Please read what I actually said. --Epipelagic (talk) 09:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I did. I reject the very bases of your arguments: that those who add redlinks or [cn]s without the intention of following up are in any way "irresponsible", and that redlinks are "out of control" if they are not bluelinked within some arbitrary time frame. Redlinks and [cn]s are not bad things—they are no more than signs that there will always be work to do, and we have the rest of the history of humanity to deal with them. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 09:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There's nothing incoherent in what I said. Your theoretical portrayal of an excess red links as some kind of Doomsday scenario is just that, bizarre. We have thousands of experienced editors who can root any excess out. While we're here, creating a stub and leaving it is worse than a redlink, remember?! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 2

  • Support – Agree heartily. Some things have a set, finite number of entries, and all of them are likely to eventually get articles. A navbox is principally for navigating between existing articles, but these aren't cases where someone is just going to make up stuff. These are known, limited sets of topics, and including a red link or two only serves to ensure that readers are not misinformed. And as always, red links let potential editors know that an article needs to be written. I often wonder if the push to remove red links without actually writing an article has contributed to the difficulty in recruiting new editors. Not only does it hide the fact that there's work that they could help with, but it's just generally hostile ownership-type behavior. Some people seem to forget that the English Wikipedia is never complete, and that there's no deadline. oknazevad (talk) 01:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure you're actually "support" then, as it sounds like you are actually advocating the exceptions that are in the current guideline (e.g. just one or two redlinks, or a redlinks in a defined and finite series of articles in a topic), not the new proposal (or its variants) which will inevitably lead to even more Navboxes that are a redlink-a-palooza... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, I explicitly support the more liberal language, as I feel that the current wording is interpreted by some far to restrictively, with common sense thrown out in favor of authoritarian interpretations and tortured attempts to claim the existing exceptions are not relevant, just because someone doesn't like looking at red text. If widening the guidance ends that foolishness, I'm all for it. oknazevad (talk) 05:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • I agree with Oknazevad, the attempts to remove needed links in defiance of all common sense is why we are here. Montanabw(talk) 05:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • these aren't cases where someone is just going to make up stuff. These are known, limited sets of topics - That's explicitly what this is not. Those are already allowed. Supporting this is what allows adding redlinks for topics that aren't known, limited sets. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - There is already an exception for redlinks which "are part of a series or a whole set, e.g. a navbox listing successive elections, referenda, presidents, sports league seasons, and the like." Isn't this proposal to extend the ability to include redlinks beyond that? I support the original version before the bit about navboxes was removed and oppose holding navboxes to a lower standard for inclusion than we do most list articles. What's at stake are lists of examples of a subject, like a list of bands or a list of websites. Since navboxes are also not supposed to be reference-heavy, what basis would there be to include/exclude redlinks? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 05:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Not really, as the language here contracts the other. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 05:41, 18 June 2015‎
  • Could you clarify what you mean? The language here as in this proposal? Contradicts, I presume, but other what? Something I mentioned or something in the guideline? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 06:24, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per User:Rhododendrites and McCandlish. A "sea of red" is equally if not more of a distraction to reading and navigation to a sea of blue. -- Ohc ¡digame! 07:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Ohconfucius:, again, did you not read the part about a sea of red links which far exceed the blue links being ill-advised?♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Then I must take issue with your wording. Navigation templates are to allow for the navigation to existing content, and not incite the creation of articles. Whilst I agree with the example cited by TRM could and occasionally does occur, a template with a preponderance of red links really ought to have no place in any article except as a prelude to their imminent creation; anybody who creates a series of articles potentially listed in a template could arguably have created the articles in the absence of the template. The existence of one or two blue links in no way justifies a template with "a [unspecified or imprecisely defined] number of red links". ----Bond, James Bond 07:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, although I don't think it goes far enough. The only redlinks that should be discouraged are ones that are unlikely to be turned into blue links. I have no problem with a "sea of redlinks", as long as their eventual creation is credible. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 07:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. We used to have a view that expansion was a good thing and means to encourage this, like "seas of credible redlinks", were a good thing. Instead WP now seems to be ossifying. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That's absolutely true. I can't remember where I saw it but I seem to recall Carrite telling us all that English Wikipedia's creation of new articles was starkly down on previous months/years. Is that really what we want for the project? The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I am not too happy about red links in navboxes unless the editor who puts them there intends to see that they become blue links within a short space of time, i.e. days not weeks. The box is essentially for users, not editors. Users need information, not a link to article creation. There are alternatives to red links in navboxes: red links in the text of the blue-linked articles included (where at least basic facts about the missing item can also be provided) and comments on the template talk page. Hidden comments for editors on additional items for inclusion can also be made in the edit version of the navbox. Maybe projects like WP:Intertranswiki could also give special attention to EN navboxes which could be enhanced on the basis of their equivalents in other languages where many more items are covered. Finally, newly created navboxes with lots of red links can always be included in the sandbox environment (with links from the talk pages of related articles or WikiProjects) until the red links have been eliminated. Only then should they be included in the mainspace.--Ipigott (talk) 09:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose - A redlink in the article serves a purpose, a redlink in a navigation box, whose sole purpose is navigating to other articles, does not. A link with nothing to navigate to is inappropriate. This proposal would be taking a step backwards and allow justification for navboxes with little to no purpose to clutter up articles, diminishing the value of navigation boxes and creating a distraction for the reader rather than an aid. This proposal helps no one other than editors that wish to clutter up navboxes, it does not help the reader nor does it help an editor that wishes to create articles. - Aoidh (talk) 10:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Incorrect. I created 161 articles based on a redlinked navbox, 158 of which are GAs and 3 are FAs, all in just over one year. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Hardly, that is not the purpose of a navbox, nor does your claim change what I said. Redlinks in a navbox serve no purpose and clutter up something that is meant solely to aid in navigation not as a "to do list" for editors. Unless you're suggesting we change the scope of what a navbox is for, what you're suggesting falls outside of that scope. - Aoidh (talk) 10:18, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Sorry, but you are wrong when you claim "nor does it help an editor that wishes to create articles" as I have adequately demonstrated. The Rambling Man (talk) 11:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Creating a template full of redlinks and then creating the article aids no one, and all you did was make a claim, that's not "adequately demonstrated". It is also outside of the scope of what navboxes are for, which is the salient point in what I said. - Aoidh (talk) 20:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Problem is, you didn't make a salient point, at all. You made a claim, which was instantly refuted, with evidence. You lost that point, wholesale. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with The Rambling Man. I created at least half the articles in Template:ScienceFictionFantasyWeirdPulpMagazines, most of which were redlinks when I built that template. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    "Sole purpose" according to who?!? What a lame tautological non-argument. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 11:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    That has been the longstanding consensus on Wikipedia for quite some time. Why else would this proposal even be necessary? Navigation boxes are for navigation. That not a "lame tautological non-argument", it's why navboxes exist. Using redlinks in an article is one thing, cluttering up articles with navboxes full of articles that don't exist is quite another. How can we expect a reader to dig through red links to find information when those who support this proposal can't even bother to "read very carefully"? A red link in an article changes what already exists from black to red, that's it. A red link in a navbox adds something that wasn't previously there and that does not exist; clutter. It may be argued to aid an editor (which is arguable), but it does not aid the reader, quite the opposite. If you feel that navboxes exist to aid the editor instead of the reader that's fine, you're welcome to that opinion but you don't have to respond to every single comment that opposes what you're supporting, especially with a comment like that. - Aoidh (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    23 supports so far and widespread disregard for the guideline brings into questions just how strong this "consensus" ever was. Link to the RfC that led to this purported consensus, please? 21:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
    I agree with Curly Turkey on this, but since consensus can change I don't think it's particularly important we see the prior consensus (though please do provide a link if you have one -- I'd like to read the discussion). If supporting this proposal goes against some definition of the purpose of a navbox, I think you can take it that those supporting it don't agree with that definition of a navbox. My definition would be more like "an aid to navigation to related articles, where those articles exist, and an indication that they need to be created where they do not already exist". I also don't like separating readers and editors as strongly as your argument implies; every single editor is also a reader, and we would like every reader to consider becoming an editor. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Curly Turkey. A redlink should only be disallowed in a navbox if it would be disallowed in an article. Redlinks (for articles that are notable) are a good thing; there's no reason to except navboxes. I see some editors above are concerned that more navboxes may appear which are a free-for-all of lists of loosely related items. To me that's an issue that should be addressed by a discussion about navboxes -- if it's a problem, it's got nothing to do with whether the navbox contains redlinks. A poorly designed and low-value navbox is not somehow a better navbox if it contains no redlinks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Absolutely support - what's next, no red links in lists? Red links tell editors that the encyclopedia isn't complete and that we still have work to do. Excluding red links from navboxes can also deceive casual readers into believing that we present comprehensive coverage of topics when we don't. Wikipedia is a work in progress.--Jackyd101 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reluctant support. My first reaction to this was: changing a site-wide guideline because one or two people were doing something annoying is unnecessary WP:CREEP. But as the discussion has developed, a lot of the opposition is based on a strange belief in the One True Teleology of Navboxes. If the current wording is being interpreted in a way that defies common sense, then I suppose it should change. Opabinia regalis (talk) 21:17, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Spot on yup. Robsinden is using it as a legal enforcement on why navigation boxes should have no red links. And when an editor is actively working on blue linking them to remove them does indeed defy common sense and is disruptive to development.♦ Dr. Blofeld 06:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Absolutely support for all the reasons stated here, but primarily because I totally agree with Curly Turkey's reasoning that red links should only be disallowed if they would be disallowed in an article. I personally have experienced no hindrance of navigation from a red link, quite the contrary, it motivates me to write another article. SusunW (talk) 03:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I see {{IsraelCentralCommandChiefs}} as a clear case where the navbox has red links and it's useful for them to be there. It should be noted that such red links should only exist for pages where the subject would clearly be notable. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 04:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I find redlinks useful in navboxes (especially successive rulers/office holders), which give me a quick overview of which articles are still missing. -Zanhe (talk) 04:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Redlinks invite article creation. It doesn't matter if that's in a template or in the article space. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 07:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • support --Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 08:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose While redlinks do invite creation, sometimes this is not a good thing. This is especially true when it comes to television articles. Editors often create episode articles simply to populate navboxes with redlinks and the articles usually fail all of our guidelines for creation. The purpose of navboxes is to facilitate navigation between existing related articles but, when a navbox is full of redlinks ease of navigation can be degraded, or we end up with navboxes full of redlinks. I was recently able to merge {{Homicide: Life on the Street episodes}} and {{Homicide: Life on the Street}} into a single, more useful template mostly by just removing all of the links to articles that would and should never be created. Of the 122 links in this revision of {{Homicide: Life on the Street episodes}}, only 28 were functional links (admittedly they were text-links, but this proposal would result in them being redlinks!). The other 94 were links to articles that would never exist. I accept that there are cases where inclusion of redlinks may be appropriate (there are examples in this RfC), and the current guidelines adequately cover this, but implementation of this proposal opens a new can of worms. --AussieLegend () 09:54, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    AussieLegend, the proposal addresses the question of excessive amount of red links and takes concerns like yours into consideration. There is nothing in the proposal which would curtail the removal of most if not all of the 94 red links you removed during your work. Randy Kryn 10:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. The wording is far too vague (yes, I know the proposal says "something along the lines of" but something completely different is needed):
  • "it is acceptable to have a number of red links" - What exactly is "a number"? Editor opinions will vary.
  • "an excessive number of red links which far exceed the number of blue links" - What is "far exceed" twice, thrice, four, 10%, 60%? If there are 5 blue links, does 10 red links far exceed? If there are 50 blue links, does 100 red links far exceed? {{NCIS television}} has 111 blue links. Suppose some editor decides to add every episode of NCIS: Los Angeles, even though only one episode article has ever been, and will likely ever be, written. Having done so, {{NCIS television}} now looks like this, with 255 links. There are only 33 more redlinks than there are blue links, which really isn't "far exceeding" the number, but the template is now full of redlinks sanctioned by the proposed wording.
  • "is ill-advised, and editors should refrain" - At best, that's very vague guidance that can and will be easily ignored.
  • "unless they are actively working through them and intend to fill them all." - So, an editor in good faith creates all of these redlinks, starts creating articles and then something happens and the editor doesn't continue. This is what happened with NCIS. There was a lot of activity creating articles in 2012 but, by the end of 2013 nobody was creating articles any more. Editors have good intentions that often come to naught.
  • "Providing that there are at least two or three active blue links in navigation boxes" - This is actually the first part of the text but it seems more appropriate to address it last. There is no set minimum number of links that a navbox can contain but the general rule of thumb is that if there are less than 5 there should not be a navbox. It's a rule that is often raised at TfD. A navbox with only two or three active blue links is unlikely to survive TfD so the proposed text is really saying "If a navbox exists it is acceptable to have a number of red links" and this is the opposite of what our guidelines currently say. --AussieLegend () 16:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
" I was recently able to merge Homicide: Life on the Street episodes and Homicide: Life on the Street into a single, more useful template" -Great, in that case then you won't object to us merging the redundant Australian place infobox into a single more useful infobox settlement.♦ Dr. Blofeld 14:40, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This has absolutely nothing to do with this RfC about redlinks in navboxes. Please stay on topic. --AussieLegend () 16:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: The the purpose of navboxes is navigation and redlinks don't provide any destination, pointless for navboxes. Also one point of redlinks is that we can see how many articles use that redlink and decide from that what redlinks should be prioritized for article creation. Redlinks in navboxes artificially amplify that count as now every article using that navbox is now part of that count. Geraldo Perez (talk) 14:48, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong support: the proposal supports what most content creators and new contributor mentors know: suggesting new articles through redlinks is a net benefit to the community. There is no reason to believe that navboxes are somehow exempt from this impact. Moreover, the arguments against the navboxes including redlinks ignore exactly what they communicate to readers beyond acting as a navigation tool: what we currently have in the encyclopedia, what is notable and should be included in the encyclopedia, and how these topics relate to eachother. Most of our readers do know what redlinks mean (or should, to become more literate in Wikipedia as a "work in progress"), and won't severely misinterpret the redlinks. Moreover, an aesthetic argument against this is absurd, in that we need people to see Wikipedia as partially broken, so that they have the same urge to fix it that brough all of us here as editors. Lets not get constrained by narrow reading of our own policies, Wikipedia should not become a bureaucracy, Sadads (talk) 17:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose as presented - The existing exception that Alakzi cites above sufficiently allows for red links in series of information, as in {{Saturn Awards}}—and even that is sometimes pushing it (I assume the rationale is that to leave out the years without articles would suggest that the awards were not held in those years, but I don't know how necessary an individual article is for the 1983 11th Saturn Awards). But I think editors supporting this proposal are confusing the function of nav templates with that of lists or categories. They are NAVIGATION templates, and it's great if they can also be useful as "lists" of related topics, but that functionality shouldn't supersede or hinder their basic function just for the sake of a "complete" navbox.
In a related discussion at Wikipedia talk:Navigation templates someone suggested it would be an "error" to have a nav template without all related links because the reader is assuming it is complete and it is actually missing information (some examples given were {{Horse breeds of France}} and {{First Nations in New Brunswick}}). I see that point there, it is helpful to cover all aspects of the topic. But I say, create stubs for those missing articles. Or create a List of horse breeds of France that is linked on the template. Opening the floodgates on redlinks will, as others have suggested, result in some massive templates listing too many redlinks for the sake of "completeness". I have no problem with redlinks but I think we all know, realistically, that the criteria "articles likely to be created" is often grossly misinterpreted by well-meaning editors, and a redlink-filled nav template is a more of a hindrance/eyesore than a redlink-filled list.
The first example that comes to mind would be nav templates for writers or actors listing every one of their credits. {{Poul Anderson}} is a great example of what could happen; he is a prolific and notable author but only a relative handful or articles exist for his written works. The template seems to list everything he's ever written, in this case unlinked (I resisted removing the unlinked items because an editor was "working on it") but obviously a redlinked version would be ridiculous. Poul Anderson bibliography exists, and is linked on the template, so there is no reason to list them all again in the template as redlinks.— TAnthonyTalk 17:54, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And AussieLegend points out another great example of a potential problem, TV series episodes.— TAnthonyTalk 17:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi TAnthony. First, there are no templates for actors. Some writer's templates, like the Poul Anderson example you point out, should and will eventually be culled back considerably. If this proposal is passed, and it looks like it is going that way, then subsequent questions regarding the extent and number of red links will likely be discussed and decided on this page and other template/red link pages. The Poul Anderson template will not look the same at some point, that is an extreme example requiring a non-extreme solution. Randy Kryn 18:58, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Randy Kryn, given that the closure of this WP:RfC should be based on the strength of the arguments and not on the number of support votes vs. the number of oppose votes (mostly anyway), and that not all of the support voters are in full agreement on the proposed wording, why do you think that it looks like this proposal will pass? Hopefully, the closer does not simply base the outcome of this discussion on something akin to a headcount. Flyer22 (talk) 22:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
In which case, passing is guaranteed, as opposers' arguments are for the most part based on the tautology that navboxes are for navigation between existing aritcles because navboxes are for navigation between existing articles. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:22, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I figured that, in response to me, if Randy Kryn didn't state that the oppose voters' arguments are weaker, someone else would. And my answer to that is that the view that the oppose arguments are weaker is incorrect. The support arguments are clearly weaker and flawed, and my opinion on that won't be changing. Flyer22 (talk) 22:35, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
they're not merely weaker—they're virtually non-existent. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm glad you won't be closing this WP:RfC. We need editors who take the time to read both sides and to recognize whatever validity in them exists. To state that the oppose votes are "not merely weaker—they're virtually non-existent" is such poor comprehension of the oppose votes (it's either that or simply a bias toward the support votes, even the clear-cut poor support votes) that I see even less of a reason to debate you than I already did. So go ahead and get WP:The last word; I'll give you that. Flyer22 (talk) 23:10, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Curly Turkey, since all the rationale supporting this change goes against the established properties of nav boxes as listed at WP:NAV, I'm not sure why you think this is a lock.— TAnthonyTalk 22:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
And requests to show where the purported "consensus" for that was built have been entirely ignored. The evidence suggests that (a) there is no consensus for that; and (b) there likely never was. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrary break 3

  • Comment on completeness of navboxes I think the "reader is assuming it is complete and it is actually missing information" problem is very, very important! {{Belmont Stakes}} is a case in point: until the recent edit adding black text of times where we have not race articles, one might think that a 140+ year race only existed since the mid-2000s! If people are offended by a sea of red, then at a minimum, black type needs to be included so that editors can add links to an existing template - and, for that matter, realize that there IS a navbox. The notion that, as in TRM's Boat Race navbox, articles can be created in "days" when there are dozens is a concept that could only be cooked up by someone who has never even created a stub! The wiki is never completed and a redlink can exist for years before the article gets created; that's not a crime! Montanabw(talk) 19:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see this as helpful for navigation, and I also don't see how any reasonable reader is going to misconstrue the race as only having begun in the 2000s. If that's the question they are seriously asking themselves, they aren't (and shouldn't!) use a navbox to answer the question; they're going to Google and end up on Belmont Stakes which will tell them the actual information they care about--that the races started in the 19th century and has continued since in some form or another. A list of all races would also make it explicit; I see no list linked in the navbox but given the concern of misunderstanding there is obviously value in a list; presumably such a list might include the year and winner of each race. Such a list even exists, at Belmont_Stakes_Top_three_finishers, in the navbox in question. Said list should be more prominently linked in the navbox and should also have that sea of red links people may or may not want in this regard. --Izno (talk) 19:55, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't see this as helpful for navigation—could we drop this broken record? As if "navigation" in the ideologically strict and narrow sense of "navigating between, and only between, existing articles" were ever the sole purpose of a navbox. Nobody has ever been hurt by a redlink in a navbox, seeing the redlinks is at the very least informational (as in chronologies or list of counties), and they encourage by their visibility the creation of large numbers of articles. The problem? That they don't conform to your ideology. The solution? Dump the ideology. Navboxes are works in progress that are part of the work in progress that is Wikipedia. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Zero people are claiming red links are a "crime", so that's a non sequitur. They are claiming that a sea of red links in a navigational box is useless for the explicit purpose of navigation.
    Zero people are claiming one can create a half dozen stubs in a day. Or 1 stub in a year. Or whatever rate. They (at least I) are/am claiming that using a navigational box to organize that creative set of efforts is not the right tool [Izno's caveat: in the mainspace; no-one will care if the template in question is never used in the mainspace]. --Izno (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Izno makes a good point in that we would be reinforcing the misconception that nav templates are always a complete summation of the topic or equivalent to an infobox, it's a navigation tool and not a list. Period.— TAnthonyTalk 19:49, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Period. Question mark, rather, or should be, as you don't appear to have asked yourself why that should be so. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 22:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Again, this proposal contradicts the established properties of nav boxes as listed at WP:NAV, and changing the function of a nav box is a bigger discussion than this.TAnthonyTalk 22:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Established by whom? I've asked this already, and been ignored—likely because the purported "consensus" was never quite consensual. If you're argument boils down to "that's what it says at WP:NAV", then you simply have no argument. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 23:02, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to go back 10 years or whatever to determine exactly how the policy came to pass, but at this point it doesn't matter. The function and properties of nav boxes have been set down (with explanations) and followed since the days of yore, and you can't just say, "I don't like this and since I can't find the ancient discussion that set it up this way, it should be changed." Like I said, if you are challenging the very nature of them, that's fine, but then that's bigger than redlinks, that's a pro and con discussion why nav boxes should or shouldn't be like articles.— TAnthonyTalk 23:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Rather I'm welcome to ignore claims of a consensus where it has yet to be shown there ever was one. The overwhelming support this proposal has garnered so far and the widespread disregard shown for such an unsupportable prohibition show the "consensus" likely was never there, and certainly is not there now. Say bye-bye to garbage guidelines. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Montanabw, readers are not supposed to use a nav box to learn about a topic as you are suggesting with Belmont Stakes. Again, this is not an infobox. — TAnthonyTalk 19:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • That is not what I was trying to say, I am saying you don't want to mislead the reader (or navigator) with a "here be dragons/terra incognito" incomplete navbox. Montanabw(talk) 02:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • readers are not supposed to use a nav box to learn about a topic: editors are not supposed to discourage readers from learning from a navbox. What possible positive outcome could come from such behaviour? Stop telling people what to think. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 06:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oh, goodness, you're right. We can't have people learning things in an unapproved manner! Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment on list alternatives: Lists that are a sea of red are not useful either. Using lists as a substitute for navboxes is inappropriate. The Wikipedia:Featured_list_criteria states, "...a minimal proportion of items are redlinked." Navboxes are the place for a comprehensive "linkable topic outline" if you will; incompleteness of the itms in the outline doesn't mean you exclude them! Montanabw(talk) 19:29, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Meeting the FLC for any list is a red herring, and on top of that, if you can't get a list to have either blue or black links rather than red, why would you want a navbox for the same purpose? --Izno (talk) 19:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Because the navbox is visible on existing pages and fullfills the reason we allow red links at all - to flag that an article needs to be created. Montanabw(talk) 02:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Red links today are articles tomorrow, even if "tomorrow" takes a year or two or three... Think of the big picture, people. Carrite (talk) 00:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Navboxes are navigational tools, not lists. The content of a navbox should be limited to blue links with the barest minimum of additional information necessary to make the organisation of those links clear.—Kww(talk) 20:16, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Forgive me, I don't understand the bit where you say " should be limited to blue links with the barest minimum of additional information necessary to make the organisation of those links clear". Readers all understand that links will take them somewhere. If the link is a different colour and it takes them somewhere yet to be created, that's initially disappointing, but hey, they might think... "you know what, I'll create that"! Cherish the thought, nurture the enthusiasm, encourage the creation! Alternatively, stick to keeping Wikipedia as small as it is. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Words like "Albums" before a list of album links and "singles" before a list of links to singles. No red links, and no expositions in black. As for the rest of your comment, abusing navboxes doesn't have all of these wonderful side effects, it just makes them harder to use and monitor. There's all kinds of places where descriptions of things we have no article about make sense, but a navbox isn't one of them.—Kww(talk) 21:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is small? Not in the least. Like I stated in the #Clarification of 'likelihood' section above, one of the reasons cited for the decline in Wikipedia editors is that so much of Wikipedia is complete; it covers so much already. In other words, when an editor thinks to create a Wikipedia article, it often turns out that a Wikipedia article on that topic already exists (which is also why Wikipedia gets a lot of WP:Redundant forks). So what is left is to improve the Wikipedia articles that we have. It seems that part of Wikipedia's success was that that WP:Newbies were more interested in creating articles that Wikipedia did not have than they were interested in improving the existing articles. And with Wikipedia as big as it is now, it saw a decline in those types of editors. Flyer22 (talk) 22:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Frankly, to me, that's another GOOD REASON for redlinks in navboxes — wiki is far from "complete" (again, Belmont Stakes...) One reason for redlinks is precisely to avoid duplication; for example, when I began to edit wikipedia, there were three different articles on the Konik horse - we can't redlink categories, and absent a navbox, no one thinks to look for a list. A navbox with a redlink shows that an article should be there, but doesn't exist yet. Black text may be visually more appealing, but it's the red links that will enhance navigability in the long run by encouraging people to "finish" sets of articles. Again, User:The Rambling Man's Boat Race articles are a case in point. Montanabw(talk) 22:41, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I remain unconvinced that we should add redlinks to the navbox. What is so different about having red links in a navbox as opposed to red links in a See also section? Flyer22 (talk) 23:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support When you have a bestselling writer, sometimes they allow red links to his books that don't have articles, and sometimes people go through insisting it be erased. Its all about whatever random people are around at the time to argue. Looks ridiculous for many things to not have a complete list there. Even if not red links, they should still be there as text. Dream Focus 23:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Protected

I have full-protected the articlepage for a couple of days to stop the edit warring by established editors on what is, I feel, a tangential and trivial subject. I hope, in retrospect, that everyone will calm down and settle this over a nice cup of tea. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@Ritchie333: What article? ♦ Dr. Blofeld 13:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Sorry, force of habit. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ritchie333, you might need to full-protect the page again. Like I knew would happen, soon after full-protection expired, an editor (in this case, Dr. Blofeld) removed the text that is still being debated, acting like WP:Consensus has been established or will be established for the removal. I reverted to the long-standing text. Flyer22 (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I see that protecting this page was also discussed on your talk page, as seen here and here. Based on things stated there, I will go ahead and request protection at WP:Requests for page protection. Flyer22 (talk) 23:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Requested. Flyer22 (talk) 23:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong version

Sarcasm is unnecessary. Izno (talk) 21:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The page is in the wrong version. Someone please revert to the correct revision before readdition of text by Robsinden. --TL22 (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@ToonLucas22: per the directions on that page, don't forget to assume malice! VQuakr (talk) 19:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • A version that has been stable for five years and altered without prior discussion is not the "wrong version". --Rob Sinden (talk) 07:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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