Cannabis Ruderalis

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:::::::Thanks. As I presume you know, historically there have been and still are devout groups of Christians who don't celebrate Christmas, eg the [[Churches of Christ]]. And see [[Christmas in Puritan New England]]. I never thought of the wording as a jab against Christians and still can't see how it is. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 20:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
:::::::Thanks. As I presume you know, historically there have been and still are devout groups of Christians who don't celebrate Christmas, eg the [[Churches of Christ]]. And see [[Christmas in Puritan New England]]. I never thought of the wording as a jab against Christians and still can't see how it is. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 20:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, thanks, I do know that. Even the early Christians didn't celebrate it, and it only grew gradually into an observance within Christianity (i.e., with church services) at all. It was never considered a prominent feast day until it became a pairing with the Theophany (Epiphany) on January 6th, the two both being observances of the incarnation. As to the jab, I just hope most others look at it that way. If no one is trying to be testy with it, then there is no jab. Perhaps I was looking at it suspiciously because this is an article where some might like to take a pot shot. And I don't like those, whichever direction they come from. [[User:Evensteven|Evensteven]] ([[User talk:Evensteven|talk]]) 23:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
::::::::Yes, thanks, I do know that. Even the early Christians didn't celebrate it, and it only grew gradually into an observance within Christianity (i.e., with church services) at all. It was never considered a prominent feast day until it became a pairing with the Theophany (Epiphany) on January 6th, the two both being observances of the incarnation. As to the jab, I just hope most others look at it that way. If no one is trying to be testy with it, then there is no jab. Perhaps I was looking at it suspiciously because this is an article where some might like to take a pot shot. And I don't like those, whichever direction they come from. [[User:Evensteven|Evensteven]] ([[User talk:Evensteven|talk]]) 23:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

== Propose Move to War on Christmas ==

I was surprised to see TWoC redirected to this article because TWoC is a term often used in recent years to describe the CC. Having an article of that name is not POV as there are plenty of RS using the phrase, not as a claim there is an actual war on Christmas, but because the subjects the sources cover use that term. WP:COMMONNAME is the applicable guideline. I think this is very similar to The War On Women, for which we do have an article.

Revision as of 06:14, 22 October 2014

Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 25/8/2006. The result of the discussion was merge and redirect.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-25. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-26. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Killing Christmas?

Even if quite a few people now and then get somewhat fed up with all the tingle-tangle and the comercialism around christmas time, I wouldnt say there is a "War Against Christmas" as much as the writer of this article desperately tries to start one. Clearly overreacting, exadurating and not in the least objective. As interesting and intriguing as it might be, this is certainly more suitable for a column than an encyclopedia. This particular method of "planting" articles on unverified subjects based on more or less made up facts and refering to dubious or no sources at all has become a real problem for Wikipedia. Writers appearing with a personal interest or for personal gain, trying to induce or start a new sort of movement or conceptual trend by implying that they already exist when they don't.

Best regards from Motherload Christmas

There is no "war" against Christmas. There may well be a war against forcing everyone to partake of Christmas, whether they want to or not - and thats one I would definitely support, but I have never met anyone who wanted to stop others celebrating Christmas if that's what they want to do. There is, however, quite a large number of people who, given the chance, would prefer to abandon the enforced Christmas holidays and carry on as normal, taking the holiday at a much more sensible time (e.g. during the summer!) or maybe limiting Christmas to every 2 years. However, whenever anything like this is mentioned, the "you're against Christmas" brigade all pipe up, and thats where this article fits in. StanPomeray (talk) 13:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

...and yes I almost forgot: Please be a darling and have mercy on my spelling and grammer, english is not my first languege. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.232.254.31 (talk) 13:16, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


POV?

"as well as several other prominent retailers that practiced similar downgradings of the holiday." This seems a bit...loaded? Downgrading of the holiday? It sounds like an assumption of deliberate, well, downgrading of the holiday. As opposed to, say, "...that practiced similar obscuration of the holiday." Maybe not even obscuration. But it sounds (to my ears) like an implication of intent to insult Christmas (when my cynical mind would suggest that, more likely, it is an attempt not to alienate any customer base and thus lose money) Thoughts? FangsFirst (talk) 08:07, 4 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would go with "obscuration" rather than "downgrading." Most retailers will gladly take (and some even rely on) the massive upsurge in shopping in November and December related to Christmas, but some (Target is a recent example, at least from a few years ago) have been known to tone down or even eliminate decorations (excepting those for sale) and ambient music. HappyJake (talk) 18:46, 18 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Obscuration demonstrates the frustration that some feel without making it sound like an intentional insult, which it is not. Gtbob12 (talk) 15:46, 15 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If everyone has agreed that "downgrading" ought to be replaced by "obscuration", why hasn't anyone done it yet? Regardless, I'm going to change it. Ginnna 02:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just stopped by to get some information, and it struck me that this article could have been written by the AFA, since it consists mostly of a year-by-year listing of their purported triumphs in boycotting assorted retailers. Couldn't that be boiled down to "The American Family Association claims that its boycotts have coerced retailers into changing their advertising" or something? 66.92.68.103 (talk) 06:54, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. That's why I added a sentence a while back that states that most of the boycots are generated by the AFA. Still, I find this section problematic. The average reader might assume that there is a large move to boycot these stores when, in fact, most of these actions are linked only to the AFA. Sure, the article's contents are factual and verifiable, but they seem to unfairly emphasize the role of a relatively small organization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Elielilamasabachthani (talk • contribs) 18:30, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Other holidays

I think the article should note the other holidays occuring at the same time including Hanukkah, Yule, Kwanza, and im sure theres some more, and that the midwinter period is a traditional time for celebrations. also a lot of Christmas elements are actually taken from the other holidays. Eg Christmas trees, holy, etc from Yule, Christmas lights/ candles from Hanukkah. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.194.30.174 (talk) 02:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What does this have to do with Christmas-related controversy? Suggest this at Christmas/holiday season, not here.. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 05:35, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't about the history of Christmas... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.136.203 (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for comment on new edits

I have made extensive changes to the entirety of this article (minus the "Historical controversy" section), and I believe they're for the better. I am requesting external comment to determine if the edits suit the NPOV of the article, and to suggest improvements if needed. Thanks. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 19:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Altho' the lead does mention Britain, it doesn't seem to feature prominently in the body of the article. There has been quite a bit of fuss about it here, with local authorities inventing something called Winterval, & Red Cross charity shops banning Christmas cards. Such behaviour has been criticized by Muslims among others, & the Red Cross objection to Christian symbols is absurd, as they are one themselves. I can't cite any sources for this, tho'. Peter jackson (talk) 11:13, 29 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It all seems a wee bit pro-Christmas to me. Having lived in a very multicultural city, i'm used to having decorations etc in a combined display for Xmas, honnuka, Diwali. I'd never heard any complaints about this before - it made the holiday season longer and more fun! There are no notable groups supporting the idea of replacing Xmas? Eg. I'm sure i've read editorials, both pro and anti, in UK newspapers when Birmingham was having "Winterval" one year.
Also i agree with the above that mentioning the overlapping holidays would help inform the reader and put this into context. If the holiday was ONLY about Xmas there would be no reason to downplay it, apart from the consumerist reasons given. Social inclusivity and unfairness in having government pay for holiday events for only one religion is also a factor. The name "Winterval" covered Xmas and Diwali, so the council only had to put up one set of non-religion-specific decorations. It's not only about "political correctness gone mad, and pro- and anti- christian biases. Yobmod (talk) 11:52, 1 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds fair- one Super Winter Holiday, combining all the various stuff celebrated by people in the area. I've got no problem with that. However, it's when they've got "Happy Holiday" and it's clearly meaning Christmas (Santa and reindeer, nothing from other holidays), then that is when it's trouble. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.8.26.10 (talk) 20:25, 18 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

pov tag

This article is entirely one-sided. It frequently cites the American Family Association, which is as far from a reliable source as it is possible to get. It uses isolated examples of people claiming to be atheist, Muslim, etc., to support the dubious conclusion that vast numbers of non-Christians are on board with this word policing. (And let's be clear, the word police are not the ones who choose to say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas", the word police are the ones who get their panties all up in a bunch of somebody else says "Happy Holidays" to them!) It contained at least one glaring inaccuracy -- corroborating AFA's claim about Home Depot, which was exposed as a falsehood. The only time it refers to the motivations of those who wanted to use the more inclusive "Holiday" instead of "Christmas", it says that they are motivated by political correctness, which is a loaded term with negative implications. And it does not at any time present the other side of the argument, that the people who are saying this are imagining the whole damn thing. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bah, I am trying to fix the article but I think I feel too strongly about this issue to do so neutrally. On a personal note, my wife and I are both atheists, but I come from a Christian tradition and she comes from a Jewish tradition, so we are proud to celebrate both Christmas and Chanukah in December, as a way of honoring our roots and celebrating tradition. So for my family, "Happy Holidays" really is the most accurate -- and when people act like it's somehow offensive to say "Happy Holidays," I really want to kick them in the balls with a steel-toed boot. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about the inherent anti-Semitism of the AFA's taking offense at Chanukah being acknowledged in ads? The same people that scream "NAZI!" every time anyone wants to do anything seem awfully intent upon expunging Jews from American culture. They don't make it a secret that they think black culture is inferior, but they do deny that they're anti-Semites. What about the ACLU and Anti-Defamation League's responses to this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.190.204.16 (talk) 14:58, 5 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article still has serious POV issues. I suggest eliminating it or doing a major revision. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 17:47, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Objectors

It seems odd to me, when giving examples of people "fighting" the War on Christmas, it mentions one Athiest, one Muslim, and two Jews... as though all those groups only have those specific people on that side. Just seems a little odd, right? One Muslim out of a billion? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.8.26.10 (talk) 03:06, 8 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's all that the citations support. Perhaps the assertion should be removed altogether, if the facts supported by the citation seem odd and out of place. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion over neutrality of article

I think the point of that assertion is that it is not only right-wing Christian fundamentalists that concern themselves with this issue. I know several non-Christians personally (including myself) that share that view. Perhaps I could find additional citations. To add, I've done some changes to the recent additions by Jaysweet and an anonymous IP user. Let's discuss any further issues here. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 03:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Despite the fact that we find ourselves on opposite sides of the issue, I actually agreed with most of your recent edits. You have been fairly measured in your modifications to my edits, e.g. you are probably correct to put "claimed" rather than "revealed" in the paragraph talking about AFA's lies about Home Depot... since nobody really has solid proof either way.
I still have a problem with the "atheists, Muslims, and Jews" section, though. I see one person claiming to be an atheist who supports this. Frankly, I think just about everyone who isn't a fundie who thinks there is a "War on Christmas" is terribly misinformed -- I mean, people say Merry Christmas everywhere I go, there are plenty of Christmas displays, etc.... But whatever. I'll get off my soapbox now.
I might be okay with wording to the effect of "Those who oppose this perceived censorship of Christmas include a number of individuals and organizations who adhere to a religion or philosophy other than Christianity", with the four cites all following that sentence. I am just not comfortable with saying that atheists and Muslims, when there is only a single citation for each. I don't want to give undue weight to the few scattered atheists who have bought into this.
What do you think? ---Jaysweet (talk) 22:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. I have incorporated these changes. Just so you know, I have basically been the sole editor of this article for several months now, and I've been trying to edit it as neutrally as possible (albeit including any information that can be cited), so sorry if I came off as a bit snappy or possessive. And though the article may seem one-sided, this is an article about Christmas controversy, so there will generally be more sources of information about those who perceive a "censorship" or controversy, rather than sources about those who perceive nothing. But regardless of my personal POV, please rest assured that I've been pretty adamant in ensuring neutrality. I very much welcome any sourced material you may find from the opposing argument.
I'm very glad to see someone else editing here, and glad to see they are on the other side of the argument. We can certainly work together to make this article as neutral as possible. If you see any other issues or have new material, please feel free to discuss it all here, and together, we can ensure to steer the article more toward neutrality and professionalism. I understand that the "other side" might not be covered enough in the article, so I'd be glad to have someone assist in filling the gap... with sources of course :). Thanks for your interest in the article (haha, I'm saying this as if it's MY article).
Also in case you were wondering, I removed the "citation needed" tag from the "Spring Holiday" mention because it links to an article that explains the situation. — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 03:32, 14 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

links

If the article is about Christmas we don't need all of this links pointing to other non-related crap. For example, why the hell is the word "pet" linked? We also don't need stuff like "New York City, "Greek Letter" "Public schools" "English" "Spanish" "Inclusive" "petitions" "retail" "mainstream media" and "customer service" linked. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.136.48.194 (talk) 09:20, 20 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Secularization of Easter

There are similar controversies about the secularization of Easter, which is more important than Christmas from a liturgical point of view. It would be interesting if we could have some information on that too. ADM (talk) 00:13, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This article already exists, it's called Spring Holiday. I lobbied to have the title changed to Easter controversy to fall in line with this article, but consensus was not reached in favor of that — `CRAZY`(lN)`SANE` 03:24, 28 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems ironic to me that someone would mention the secularization of what was originally a pagan holiday. Christians "stole" this one from the pagans (along with many of the holiday's traditions) and now complain that the holiday is becoming secular (which I think you define as anything non-Christian). The same irony exists with this Christma controversy. I wish more Christians would study the history of their religion. It's a rich and interesting history and it doesn't detract much from modern orthodox Christian ideaology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.105.99.81 (talk) 13:25, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, some of the traditions as time went on came from everywhere (It's on Dec. 25 for a reason) but if you're trying to argue for anything more than that, aka pagan borrowing BS, you need to check your primary sources.69.254.76.77 (talk) 15:41, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
["It seems ironic to me that someone would mention the secularization of what was originally a pagan holiday." ]
Easter was never a pagan holiday. It's called "Pascha" (passover) not "Easter" in almost the whole world and dates as a Christian holiday from the 1st century. 207.237.211.236 (talk) 18:26, 8 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you might want to look up Ēostre. Powers T 16:42, 13 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have looked up Eostre. The only known mention of a goddess named Eostre comes from the writings of Bede of Jarrow in the 8th century, and he says that the word "Easter" comes from the name of the 4th month of the year, and the month was named for a Goddess named "Eostre." And that is the sum total of everything known about any such goddess. And it's specific to England, and comes from a time when the Christian celebration of Easter has already been in existence fr 600 years. The name of the holiday is "Pascha." Even if the word "Easter" is from 'eostremonath," that does not mean the HOLIDAY is from paganism. That's like claiming that Good Friday is from the God Frigga, because that's where the word "Friday" comes from. 207.237.211.236 (talk) 03:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

God Condemns Christmas Trees

The King James Version reads: "Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen.... For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not." I think its from Jeremiah 10 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.193.42.11 (talk) 00:44, 3 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Glad I use a false tree then. Bahahaha216.185.250.92 (talk) 19:54, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Read the very next verse. It very specifically mentions palm trees, not the average Christmas tree. I gotta wonder why everyone condemning use of Christmas trees leaves that verse out... Farsight001 (talk) 01:56, 25 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it says "They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good." It's comparing them to palm trees, because in Arabic nations the palm tree is one of the few that are tall and straight, most share more charicteristics with bushes so it's using that as an example. 71.84.126.174 (talk) 12:32, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Does it really matter what type of tree it is? It would seem odd indeed to object to cutting down a palm tree and decking it with silver and gold, but not object to doing the exact same thing to a pine tree. There are a significant number of Christians who do object to Christmas trees on the basis of this verse, whether we think it matters what type of tree it is doesn't matter.--RLent (talk) 20:36, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]


it matters if your worship them. not if you use decoration. since silver and gold isnt exacly AVIABLE to all people now are they? they are very expensive even at that time. so yes its idoltry. owning a piggybank is not idoltry. worshipping it is77.53.83.205 (talk) 04:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

worldwide...

the article currently has some sort of box that asks for worldwide/inclusive coverage of the issue. I would assume whoever put it there can remove it. I've never come into contact with this issue on a major scale outside North America. Most traditionally/historically Christian countries either have an established state church or lack any explicit non-establishment clause. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.172.184.105 (talk) 03:36, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stop using the words "diversity" and "diversify". They are words used so often they have lost their meaning. Pluralism, I think would be a good replacement. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.71.66.154 (talk) 14:41, 22 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wood for the Trees

This entire article is navel-gazing, cultural-relativist liberal BS. Talk about a civilisation rotting from within. I'm glad I don't live in the anglo-sphere, sorry multicultural-sphere! Don't you over-educated nincompoops understand that the majority of working class people in your countries don't give a toss about your hand-wringing hair-tearing verbal diarrhea? I think a lot of frustrated people on both sides of the fence are just using this article as their own personal battleground to act out their epic pie-in-the-sky fantasies of societal change. How can I get a vote/debate going against this article's right to exist?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.140.121.99 (talk • contribs)

Whaaaat? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.9.5.145 (talk) 15:26, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion is over that-a-way. Powers T 16:28, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We don't decide whether to delete articles based on whether a topic should logically exist and be a popular subject, we delete them based on whether the subject is notable and can be reliably sourced. The subject of this article is both notable and can be reliably sourced, whether you think its liberal propaganda or not. — CIS (talk | stalk) 20:08, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Funny, I thought it was navel-gazing, Christian Dominionist conservative BS. I guess on balance, then, it's probably as close to NPOV as we can get. Combine that with the facts that it's notable and verifiable, I'd say any attempt at deleting the article will wind up in the keep column. That would be my vote, anyway. -- JeffBillman (talk) 22:37, 23 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. If anything, I thought this article's very existence was to promote a conservative Christian POV that secular, liberal people were waging a war against their religious freedom. Perhaps this article is more neutral than I had assumed. Still, I'd rather see the whole thig get deleted. Sure, it's notable and reliably sourced, but it really overemphasizes the claim that this "war on Christmas" is a big deal. Just my opinion. I'd vote to eliminate the article, but I am only lukewarm about that vote and wouldn't initiate the process myself. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, regardless of the intent of the "War on Christmas" movement (that is, those claiming such a war, not those waging it), the movement is undeniably notable. It's been the subject of numerous articles and television segments. If there are problems with POV, though, we'd appreciate your help fixing them. Powers T 14:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I understand your concerns about the article, but if anyone can speak on the neutrality of the article, it's me. I have tried, over the years, to move this article to a more neutral status. Initially, the article was titled "War on Christmas", and I initiated discussion to move it to the more neutral "Secularization of Christmas" title, then to the even more neutral "Christmas controversy" title, which allows the article to incorporate both present-day and historical Christmas-related controversy in general. The opening paragraphs are mostly all my work, and I tried to be as accurate and neutral as possible in discussion the present-day issues. The entire "Present-day controversy" sections are mostly my doing as well. Feel free to help make the article more neutral, but I believe it is as neutral as it ever has been. — CIS (talk | stalk) 06:27, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just made an edit without realizing I wasn't signed in anymore. The one replacing "has been noticed" with "is felt by some" is mine. Apologies. Meservy (talk) 11:06, 26 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it should be "woodpile for the Yule log" not "wood for the trees"? (Is the reversal of wikt:see the forest for the trees intentional?) Regrettably notable far-right Christian manufactured controversy, as noted above, with roots in anti-semitism. I doubt if an AfD is warranted, and there have been two prior which were speedy keeps, as well as one merge and redirect from another article. Шизомби (talk) 15:17, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Article

This article is pure bias crap. Even the article as a whole doesn't seem to understand what the word controversy means. In sections like Retailer controversies, the entire section pretty much relies on the American Family Association. While: "On December 5, retailer Costco Wholesale Corporation was criticized by the AFA for failing to use the term "Christmas" in any of their advertising.[54] The AFA later claimed on December 15 that Costco had decided to incorporate the term "Christmas" into their advertising and local correspondence.[55]"

How is this a 'controversy' its a pretty much meaningless thing that happened, with its only references being by the APA. This article not only needs a more worldwide viewpoint, but needs TO STOP TURNING SOMETHING THE APA OPPOSES into A 'CONTROVERSY'. Its all garbage and completely off topic. IAmTheCoinMan (talk) 04:29, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, some of the examples in the Retailer controversies section only cite AFA. But many cite news articles and other sources as well, indicating controversy. The 2009 controversy with Gap, for example, was covered in USA Today and various other news sources. We can certainly remove the examples that only cite AFA. You haven't noted any further concerns about bias or neutrality, so please voice them if you have any other concerns about the article. I have removed the retailer "controversies" that only cited AFA. — CIS (talk | stalk) 04:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Missing info

The article is missing several things: 1. Mention of the expansion of the holidays' advertising to include Thanksgiving and New Year's, a primary, non secular reason for making the whole period a "holiday" season. 2. mention of how the "War" is perceived within the Christian church itself, ie, those Christians who consider it unChristian to pursue such boycots and aggressive behavior during the Christmas season, 3. a philosophical or pyschological look at why it's so important for certain types of people to come to the defense of the naming of Christamas, the hanging of the 10 commandments, and other related things that have little to nothing to do with the religious tenents of the belief itself.24.211.191.103 (talk) 08:00, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Tree at Rockefeller Center

The article states "As of 2008, there is no mention of 'Christmas' anywhere on the tree's official website." As of today, December 17, 2009, the term "Rockefeller Center Christmas tree" is used on Rockefeller Center's website (in addition to "The Tree at Rockefeller Center"). Also, the link to "the tree's official website" no longer works.

I am tempted to just delete the whole paragraph about this tree, but if this was true at one time it may be better to keep it as a historical statement. What say you all? --ChasFink (talk) 15:02, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As of today, that paragraph is giving false information and should be removed. I'll delete it, but if anyone wants to mention that there has been a historical controversy around the label for that tree, go right ahead and add it. The bottom line is that, as of right now, the info in that paragraph is not true and we have an obligation to remove it. 159.105.99.83 (talk) 16:42, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize...didn't realize I was logged off when I wrote the paragraph above. That one is mine under IP 159.105.99.83 Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 16:44, 17 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Christmas trees in Israel

The article should perhaps consider mentioning the fact that it is very difficult to display Christmas trees in Israel without facing some type of social or religious pressure. This type of campaign against Christmas trees tends to replicate similar controversies about the public exposition of creches in the United States, which are often alleged to be products of secular Jewish activists within like-minded groups such as the ACLU. [1][2][3][4] ADM (talk) 21:08, 18 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(Perceived?) censorship

Regarding this edit and the two preceding it, is it appropriate to use the word perceived in describing the censorship of the terms Christmas, Easter, etc.? On one hand, it is Wikipedia policy to avoid weasel words, and perceived might be thought of as such a word. On the other hand, this page is discussing an avowed controversy, and seems to attribute (in the previous paragraph, as well as the one in question) the evaluation to particular individuals or groups. As my edits suggest, I believe that it is appropriate to include the word; clearly at least one other editor disagrees. Can we attempt to reach some consensus here? Cnilep (talk) 19:33, 28 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the word "censorship" necessarily needs an adjective in that spot to indicate that it is a censorship that is being alleged. The word is first used within the context of a claim being made by Brimelow, O'Reilly, etc., so to my mind it follows that the "censorship" being referred to is that same one that they allege. "Perceived" is possibly inaccurate in that they don't necessarily actually perceive it; they claim to perceive it but arguably one or more of them might not really believe it exists but could be making it up for ratings, sales, etc. There are weasel words in that section, though: "a variety of prominent (peacock?) media figures and others" (who?) "a number of advertisers, retailers, government (prominentlyschools), and other public and secular organizations" (who?) "Some believe" (who?).
Incidentally, at some point it would be good to address the redlinks in the article. Nissenbaum[5] seems like he might meet WP:ACADEMIC, and I believe the Church League of America (1937-1980s) and Robnett would be. I should probably add the CLA to my userpage to remind myself. Skoros v. City of New York and the Lobby for Jewish Values I'd have to look up. Шизомби (talk) 14:45, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 18:54, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Christmas controversyWar on ChristmasRelisted. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:08, 7 December 2010 (UTC) 'Christmas controversy' is not a term in use, whereas 'War on Christmas' is, widely and frequently. Sumbuddi (talk) 23:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can see there is one main issue here, the so-called 'War on Christmas', plus a ragtag collection of largely unrelated historical issues surrounding Christmas.

The 'War on Christmas' is a modern phenomenon that should have its own article. The article under 'Present-Day Controversy' discusses the 'War on Christmas'. The 'Historical Controversy' is not related at all - the 'War on Christmas' describes what is in fact a campaign to preserve Christmas in the face of a perceived threat from secularists, whereas the 'Historical controversy' largely describes distinct historical campaigns against celebrating Christmas.

That 'War on Christmas' is a POV title is irrelevant - it is the title that is used by the people who discuss it, including those who think it is nonsense. e.g. [6]

There could possibly be a separate 'criticism of Christmas' page, but clearly the 'War on Christmas' is not part of that, because the 'War on Christmas' as described here doesn't relate to 'criticism' so much as 'perceived slights'.Sumbuddi (talk) 00:01, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • The history of these pages is quite convoluted, if I recall correctly. Apparently at one point, these two titles were two separate articles that ended up merged as the topics were too similar. Powers T 03:29, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The move would make sense if the article was just about the recent controversies, but the fact that it contains the historical controversies makes the arguments for the move not so relevant. Even if it didn't, "War on Christmas" is still unnecessarily POV, so this isn't really a good idea. --WikiDonn (talk) 20:03, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We already have "War on Christmas" as a redirect, so anyone searching on that will come here. I see no reason to change the actual name of this article to a pov name, since the article is not just about the alleged war on Christmas but about Christmas controversies in general, and there is no reason to assume that there are/will be no contemporary Christmas controversies that are unrelated to the 'War'. Dougweller (talk) 20:26, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Did Jesus exist?

Regarding recent edits about whether or not Jesus should be described as someone who "presumably" existed, let me say that there is oerwhelming historical evidence in the form of ancient leters and scripture (both religious and secular) that Jesus of Nazareth did exist. One could argue whether or not he was the Christ promised in the Old Testament. He may have been God's son or he may have just been a regular man, that is an issue of faith, but the guy did actually exist. I don't ever like to see Wikipedia describe faith items as if they were factually true, but I think it goes too far to deny that Jesus actually existed. I will undo this edit. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 19:22, 17 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Evidence and proof are two different things. The ancient letters and scripture that you have mentioned could simply have been written by people with an agenda - yes, it proves people were talking about Jesus, it doesn't prove he existed. People often talk about Batman and he doesn't exist either! StanPomeray (talk) 13:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have the Scripture, but that was written a minimum of 30 years after the events it purports to describe. Please provide the letters and other evidence. Not just to Wikipedia but to academic historians, if you're sitting on a goldmine of theologically earth-shattering proportions, do please share.A Pedant (talk) 12:19, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Stan, I see your point about proof vs. evicence, but the evidence is substantial and is accepted by the majority of historians. It is clearly the minority view that Jesus never existed. I suppose there is no proof that George Washington existed either...all we have are letters and other documents (evidence). I'm all in favor of removing any statements that come from religious zealots who propose their faith as fact, but I just think it's difficult for any credible source to deny that Jesus lived. Perhaps it is fair to say there is no proof he existed, but that the overwhelming majority of historians concede the point.

Pedant, to your point, please research non canonical letters and sources regarding Jesus and early Christianity. You will see that there are plenty of sources, although they are weakened by the fact that none were written during Jesus' life. This isn't a good place for me to introduce you to early Christian history, so I'll leave you to research on your own. The bible is also a reasonable source of evidence, but it was clearly modified substantially during the first 1300-1400 years after Jesus' death. I would argue that the details of Jesus' life as described in the bible are difficult to characterize as reliable, but he probably did exist. Let me put it this way, why would they (early proto-orthodox Christians) make up the man Jesus? Clearly, the religion started through the work of Cefus, the two Marys and a small handful of others close to Jesus. Paul was probably more responsible for how Christianity emerged than anyone else. It's difficult for any historian to imagine any of these people gathering to secretly agree to make up Jesus. It is much easier to imagine that Jesus was a real man and these early Christians recounted or conspired to create the details of Jesus' life. The study of ancient history and textual criticism often rely on making logical connections and following the most likely path vs. the most complicated. Is all of this proof that Jesus existed? No. It is not, but I think there is enough evidence that it is very difficult to come to any other conclusion. In closing, I'll say that I'm not going to bother changing this again if anyone decides to describe Jesus as fake. I've made my case and used up all my interest in this point on this discussion. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 15:42, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps making a distinction between the historical jesus and the jesus of faith? Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 20:34, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thinking back to 2007

This article used to have a lot of references to Bill O'Reilly's allegations about various groups that were committing offenses against Christmas. As it turns out, most of his claims were spurious, and that's probably why they've been removed. But the fact that BO'R made all these claims seems germane to the article, yes? Ethan Mitchell (talk) 12:51, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How do we do that without the claims? I find this funny: [7] and [8] - Fox News, his employers, use "Happy Holidays" as their greeting it seems. Dougweller (talk) 13:25, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we had the claims here earlier, so presumably they're in the archives. Give me awhile. Ethan Mitchell (talk) 03:48, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Christmas in the Colonies

It should probably be mentioned that Christmas wasn't celebrated by the early american settlers, and that doing so was actually a legal offense. It should also be noted that at the founding of the country, Christmas was still not widely celebrated. This is significant because many of the arguments that it is tradition point to the early settlers and founders. Deliciousgrapefruit (talk) 17:46, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tovalu's first bold edit on wiki

I removed the sentence about non-christians agreeing per WP:UNDUE. If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name *prominent* adherents. If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Wikipedia. Among non-christians the "christmas controversy" is a non-issue, an extremely small minority of people may agree with the people who believe Christmas is being censored even though they are not christian but mentioning them is giving undue weight.

I also deleted an opinion by a nonnotable (WP:ONEEVENT) tree-owner. Tovalu (talk) 02:48, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I tried to improve the article a bit, but it still needs lots of work! Please help by checking if the the article is properly sourced and neutral. Tovalu (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's get Ron Paul in here

His article "The War on Religion" is focused on Christmas, and it's relatively early (2003) in this controversy: http://www.waronchristmas.com/ron-paul-and-the-war-on-christmas/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethan Mitchell (talk • contribs) 14:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Winterval

This is often cited as Birmingham City Council's attempt to secularise Christmas, but is overlooked is that it was a purely COMMERCIAL idea to promote trade and businesses in the city. I have seen programs on the BBC where theists have been allowed to claim that mention of Christmas was banned without any form of challenge at all, or any requirement to back up their claims.2.125.67.48 (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2012 (UTC)LanceTyrell[reply]

I agree, but do you want to make some specific changes and have you sources for them? Dougweller (talk) 15:15, 16 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

POV

Much of this article seems to be written from the POV of those who believe that there is a "War on Christmas." There are numerous examples of "anti-Christmas" activities and how people have "fought back" against the War on Christmas. Of course this is connected to the belief of these people, and others, who believe that Christmas should be a publicly-celebrated, government-supported holiday. It generally discounts the beliefs of those who fell otherwise. There needs to be more inclusion of the view of those who do not believe there is a "War on Christmas," those who are accused of waging a "War on Christmas," and those who may in fact actually be waging such a war. Tad Lincoln (talk) 22:46, 21 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Potential Featured Article

This article would be a good candidate to be selected as a potential Featured article, especially if featured during the "Holidays." This article would need to be designated as a Good article first, which would be a good short term goal for this article. Most of the reference issues have been resolved. However, this article needs copyediting, if anyone agrees with this assessment and would like to help with this process. Mistercontributer (talk) 03:17, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that the article isn't good. It is a hodge-podge of unrelated content. Most of the content is about the US "culture wars", but the article seems to be unwilling to make this its focus. Instead there are long tangents on completely unrelated topics. The "current controversies" section is ostensibly split into "government", "Christmas tree" and "retailers" issues. Under "government" we find sections on the UK and South Africa, creating the false impression that this article somehow has an international scope. And what are the UK "governmental" controversies? Random local headlines from a few years back,

In November 2009 the city council of Dundee was accused of banning Christmas

What this article is in fact about is the bitter cultural war in the United states with "New Atheism" on one side, and "Conservatives" on the other. There can easily be a "history" section about this, Anglo-Saxon puritanism and the like, but it is unclear how the following paragrph is able to contribute anything,

There is also controversy concerning the precise date of December 25 as the presumed birthday of Jesus. December 25 was the date of the winter solstice in ancient times (before subsequent drift due to chronological errors in the Julian calendar eventually left the solstice on its present date of December 21.) As such, many pagan winter holidays occurred on this date, which marks the shortest day of the year and the point where the days become longer again. Many customs from these holidays, particularly from the pagan Scandinavian and Germanic celebration of Yule in northern Europe, are transparently present in later Christmas customs, suggesting that the date was appropriated directly from pagan customs and given a Christian veneer rather than being the true birthday of Jesus.

This doesn't document a controversy at all, it is just a poor summary of the history of Christmas itself. Christmas has been celebrated since the 4th century. Its present form more or less dates to the 19th. Nobody ever claimed 25 December was the "true birthday of Jesus", this "controversy" is just a strawman of what is really a battlefield of the multiculturalism/political-correctness debate in North America. --dab (𒁳) 14:29, 22 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your feedback. I agree this article needs more focus. One option would be to focus this article on Christmas controversies in the United States. If Christmas controversies exist in other countries, then Wikipedians from those countries may create separate articles to summarize those issues. -Mistercontributer (talk) 01:22, 23 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Increasingly multiculturally sensitive'?

This is an unsourced and largely unverifiable view of society in the lead. I don't think that any Christian country is becoming more sensitive, just a few Red loonies at minor city councils and schools. But that's my opinion. Can you source yours? Indiasummer95 (talk) 12:06, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

'Red loonies'? Nice to see you be so clear about what you think. Dougweller (talk) 17:12, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Norway and Sweden

This article roughly defines the "christmas controversy" as a reluctance/avoidance of the word "Christmas", the denial of a person's right to celebrate this holiday and the avoidance of any religious connection to the holiday. The Norway and Sweden examples in the section describing government controversy do not seem to fit this article. In both of those cases, the government seems to be saying, "you can celebrate this holiday if you want to, but you cannot compel public school children to participate in religious activities if they decline to do so." Nobody is preventing those who want to celebrate the holiday from celebrating it. They are simply saying that nobody can be forced to participate in a religious activity if they do not want to. Is this really part of the so-called "Christmads Controversy"? I propose removing these two paragraphs unless someone can show how they link directly to this article. I don't see how it is hostile to Christmas to simply avoid forcing someone to participate religious services if they don't want to. I will wait for comments before I delete those sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elielilamasabachthani (talk • contribs) 15:21, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I am the one who inserted these edits. The article start saying "The term "Christmas controversy" refers to the issue surrounding the celebration or acknowledgment of the Christmas holiday (or lack thereof)". In Norway/Sweden, there is much controversy on whether Christmas should be celebrated through school visits to churches. The alternative is a more secular holiday celebration in schools. I note in the history section, that there has been all kinds of controversies through histories; I don't see a reason to make the scope of contemporary issues too narrow; only to cover the typical American debate. Iselilja (talk) 15:42, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the reply. I'm not saying we should limit the scope to the American debate. I get your point there. What I'm wondering is this: the Christmas Controversy is about policies and practices that deny someone the right to celebrate (or even acknowledge) this holiday. Some examples of this include: when a town refuses to let a Christian group place a nativity scene in a park, when a store has a "holiday" sale rather than a Christmas sale or when someone calls it a holiday tree, etc. In all of these cases, the main complaint from the offended party goes something like, "I'm upset because you are denying the existence of this holiday and are interfering with my right to celebrate it". The Norway and Sweden examples seem to say, "I am upset because the government will not let me force people to participate in a religious ceremony against their will". Can you see the difference between these two points? If Norway or Sweden told kids who wanted to celebrate that they could not, I think you would have a good example to include here, but your examples do not show how anyone's right to celebrate Christmas is being denied. Your examples only illustrate that Norway/Sweden think it is wrong to force someone to participate if they don't want to. I don't see anything in this wiki article that says it is controversial if one person cannot force another person to participate in a religious ceremony. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 21:11, 18 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"your examples do not show how anyone's right to celebrate Christmas is being denied." To certains degree it does; in the meaning that some schools cancel Christmas school services and other groups advocate that schools should cancel all of these Christmas services. Many people in Norway think this is denying them one traditional way of celebrating Christmas in Norway. As I stated above the article defines Christmas controversies as "the issue surrounding the celebration or acknowledgment of the Christmas holiday (or lack thereof)".There is no people in democratic countries who want to ban people from celebrating Christmas privately or in churches in their spare time; the debate is about to which degree people should be able to celebrate Christmas in public; and particularly to which degree governmetn institutions (like schools) should accomodate Christmas celebrations. If there is consensus for your interpretation of the policy, I will start a new article about Christmas controversies in Scandinavia/Europe; however, as I don't see any sign yet that you have any consensus for your interpretation, I think it is too early and I will therefore reinsert the edit until such a consensus emerges. Iselilja (talk) 14:34, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
At least stick with the stuff you mentioned here in talk: "To certains degree it does; in the meaning that some schools cancel Christmas school services and other groups advocate that schools should cancel all of these Christmas services." I think that comment (with citations) does match this article. I just think you need to leave out the details related to forcing the unwilling to participate. I don't think anybody finds it controversial if a state doesn't force a jewish kid to attend a Christian church service. That would be an expansion of this article that I don't think we want. I would support the inclusion of details showing how some schools in Norway and Sweden are avoiding Christmas in general (even for kids who want to celebrate). That seems to fit here. Thanks! Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 15:03, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's not controversial that Jewish, Muslim or Humanist children shall be allowed to stay away from participatin in church masses (allthough several politicans encourage immigrant pupils of other faiths to attend, as a way to familiarize themselves with Norwegian culture). However, the opposers of school arranged school masses are not satisfied with the right to not attend; as they feel that school arranges christmas masses is causing a split among pupils (some going to churches; others not); and also arguing that the alternative set up for school masses has not been good at many scools where only few pupils are left while most pupils attend church. On the other sides, in many places most parents and pupils want to attend school arranged masses before Christmas and are disturbed by the suggestion (from different organizations etc) that this shall no longer be allowed, with some schools already canceling these masses. Traditionally, these Christmas masses were often held at the last day before the Christmas holiday and was the formal way of ending school before Christmas. This is no longer allowed, so that's a compromise and concession to those who don't want these school masses. I see this discussion as pretty similar to controversies that are mentioned in the section for other countries; which basically all are about to which degree public Christmas celebrations shall have religious connotations or be secularized (and then sometimes renamed holiday/winter celebration). Anyway, this is a recurrent and important debate/controversy in Norway (and Sweden, but maybe to lesser extent) that definitely is notable for Wikipedia. There are several other controversies related to Christmas, as well, for instance whether Advent/Christmas program in state television shall be religious or secular. The alternative to having this information in this article is to make another article specifically related to Christmas controversies in Norway/Scandinavia or maybe specifically about the controversies about school-arranged christmas masses. But, I would like input first from other users on whether the Norwegian stuff belongs in this article or needs its own. I have alerted the three Wikiprojects that are mentinoed on top of this article about this discussion, and will put up an RfC if that doesn't lead to any response. Iselilja (talk) 15:56, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely, the Scandinavian issue should remain in the article (imo). I see the need for a little perspective here. The article is entitled "Christmas controversy". Despite being phrased in the singular, I think it still implies "any controversy about Christmas", and includes various forms. It is a somewhat generalized banner under which subdivisions of controversy can be discussed. I think that means that issues of denials of religious liberties are there, as well as issues of forced participation. In fact, these two sets of issues are not really separable as two, but are inseparably bound together, which is why there is controversy. The "two" are merely the one controversy seen from the viewpoints of opposing sides. Christians understand that Christmas (Christ mass) is the religious observance (at a religious service) celebrating the coming to earth of God himself. To separate "Christmas" from that observance is to make it "not Christmas at all", but something different. However, non-Christians understand Christmas to be the observance of a variety of social, even secular, customs, and do not regard religious matters as necessary for it at all. In fact, they may regard religion as an intrusion into "Christmas". (Ok, that's all a little simplistic, but it covers the large ground.) The controversy often stems from the perception of "forcing", the application of power (or fear of its application), either to include religious matters, or to exclude them. And that is basically the issue in any nation that is dealing with it in some way. If this article does not sufficiently describe the controversy in its introduction, then perhaps a text change is in order - you can see approximately what I would argue for. The point is, we shouldn't start this discussion from what the article currently says (look above, that's how it was). Instead, we need to decide what the article should say, in its opening sentence or two. And that may resolve the matter about Norway and Sweden all by itself. Right now, we don't have an agreed definition of what the controversy is, and until we do, we don't know what we're arguing about. (How often controversies arise that way!) Evensteven (talk) 22:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
This is absolutely not germane to this article. The definition of the Christmas Controversy is well described in the opening of the article. This definition was reached with plenty of input from many authors. What the Norway/Sweden examples do is add to the definition in a way that does not have the consensus of the editors. I am fine with leaving part of these edits in, but NOT the part where we call it controversial for a state to refuse to force an unwilling participant to go to a religious ceremony. If we leave those sections in, we should add to the opening of the article with a statement like, "The Christmas Controversy also includes objections to a state's refusal to allow Christians to force non-Christians to attend religious Christmas ceremonies." I doubt that edit would be accepted by the majority of editors, yet you both seem to think it is OK to expand this article in ways that sound absurd to me.Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 13:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, your personal view is clear; nevertheless, "what sounds absurd to you" is not the standard the article needs to abide by. You will note that I did not venture to change the definition as stated in the article, yet. But I could. Even if agreed upon once, it is not necessarily set in stone. And as an editor, I have as much authority to propose changes as anyone else. I'm not sure yet what changes I might suggest, or where in the article, but it is certainly clear to me that I may do so at any time. Then you and everyone else will have the opportunity to have a say also, which is as it should be. For the present time, I stand firmly behind the inclusion of the Norway/Sweden material, as is germane to the Christmas controversy as it exists in the world. If on Wikipedia, an artificial definition has been devised that limits discussion of that controversy, then that definition may require changing, because it is the controversy in the world that truly defines it, and the world definition can shift and expand with ongoing events. Wikipedia is reflective, not definitive. One cannot object on the basis of what "we call it controversial for a state to refuse" because we as editors do not decide what is controversial and what is not. Therefore, the fact that the described issues are big deals in Norway and Sweden, and certainly notable, forces their coverage. I agree with user Iselilja that the only WP question is "coverage here" or "coverage separately". The issues are about controversies and they are related to Christmas. I think a strong case would need to be made about why coverage ought to occur separately from this article, as its title gives the most natural description of the issues' category. Evensteven (talk) 23:34, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just changed the intro to include this newly expanded definition of the controversy. As long as the intro stands, I suppose this expansion at least logically flows throughout the article and I cannot object. I hope I can count on your support for the new intro sentence I added (including any edits you might suggest). The beauty and flaw of Wikipedia is that anyone can change the definition of an article. So be it. Elielilamasabachthani (talk) 02:33, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for handling that aspect of the article, keeping it inwardly consistent. I'll look it over, but am off to other things for a little while. Evensteven (talk) 06:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
It's a bit puzzling. I don't see any new edit to the intro yet. Evensteven (talk) 08:19, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

origin of advent

From the article:

The Advent season (originally a fasting period meant to point to the Second Coming of Christ), and gift giving (invented by Martin Luther to counter St. Nicholas Day, December 6) were also pagan in origin.[citation needed]

Obviously it can't originally have been intended to point to the second coming of christ and be pagan in origin. I have no idea what the author of this sentence was trying to say.

Paul Brannan (talk) 14:32, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Revert in article lead paragraph

I have reverted a recent change in the lead paragraph, partly because I object to the language of the edit as WP:POV. But it's a problematic thing, for I agree with that editor that the existing language of the lead is also POV. I figure the fallback position ought to be retention of the earlier-agreed-on language for now, while the issue is talked over here. For the moment, I will mull over what I might propose for a change. In discussion, I do propose to support the following principles, which I think are clearly backed by Wikipedia. This article is not a place to try to settle the controversy. The article needs to articulate in neutral language what the controversy is, and may need to provide neutral descriptions of differing points of view in order to do so. Such descriptions must be kept in balance, lest the article become POV through undue emphasis. The inclusion of such points of view must also not overpower the entire article content by their number. And the lead paragraph in particular needs to remain a place of summary and concise writing, not close to a full exposition. If exposition is required, the right section below must be found or created. I am new to this article but not as new to controversial topics on WP, so pardon if my comments are overkill here; but I have already seen signs of contention in the recent disruptive acts of vandalism. And I thought everyone deserved the chance to know something about where I stand before we try to do some good work. Evensteven (talk) 02:51, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pew study

In a good effort to address a concern that I'd raised about sourcing and statements in the opening, User:Mistercontributer edit the sentence to read:

In the past, Christmas-related controversy was mainly restricted to concerns of a public focus on secular Christmas themes such as Santa Claus and gift-giving, rather than what is seen by the majority of Christians as the real reason for Christmas - the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ.

and sourced it to this Pew poll. This has several problems:

  1. By placement, it looks like it is sourcing the whole sentence, but the poll says nothing about the history of Christmas controversies.
  2. The poll is of Americans only, and thus not appropriate source for talking about "the majority of Christians" in this portion of the article, which is not US-specific.
  3. The poll does not ask the question of whether they see the birth of Jesus as the reason for the holiday, merely if they see the holiday as a religious one.

Still, this is a much better source than what was there earlier. --Nat Gertler (talk) 18:01, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the Pew study reference does not support every part that sentence, but you removed the other references which did support the other parts of that sentence. I will search for additional references for that sentence from other reliable sources. In my opinion (and I realize everyone has one), that sentence is critical, since that sentence explains one key aspect of the "Christmas controversy." Mistercontributer (talk) 18:30, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Even those sources didn't address the first half of the sentence at all, and I hope you can understand that the statements of one ministry and one columnist cannot be presumed to speak for the vast array of Christians as a whole. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:23, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
And I hope you can understand when you remove references you should either add replacement references which support the sentence, or remove the sentence entirely, or add "citation needed" tag, instead of modifying the sentence to fit your view point. Mistercontributer (talk) 19:32, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In this case, I removed the references and the claim that they were apparently supposed to support. That the sentence and indeed the whole article that remains has claims not appropriately referenced is something that I might have addressed had I infinite time, but I do not. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:20, 27 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Problems with title and opening

This article appears to be lumping together a range of individual controversies under a single umbrella and inventing a term for it. While searching certainly finds some examples of folks using the term "Christmas controversy" (although very few compared to a term like "War on Christmas"), these invocations generally seem to be referring to an individual controversy rather than some blanket situation, and in some cases to controversies that seem an ill fit to this article (such as this, or, even more so, this). Unless we find some external, significant, reliable source defining this term in such a way that matches our definition, I suggest we move away from the title and opening we are using now. The title should be some plural to be clear we are talking about a range of controversies (such as Christmas controversies or Controversies regarding Christmas) and the opening should not talk about the term, but merely that there are and have been controversies regarding the holiday of Christmas and the way in which public and private organizations choose to recognize and refer to it and involve people in Christmas-related activities. --Nat Gertler (talk) 20:54, 28 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest you read the talk page archives for this article since the title issue was previously discussed and addressed. However, I agree the opening can be improved. This article is obviously a mess for the reasons stated above, but this article does serve a purpose, since it attempts to address a controversial subject from a neutral point of view. - Mistercontributer (talk) 02:56, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I actually have scanned through the archives going back to 2006 when this article took on this title (searching on the word "controversy"), and while I see objections to that title similar to what I have voiced, I find no justification for the claim that this is a term. Can you point me to what I missed? And far from being neutral, the title and structure of this article take the point of view that all of these disparate public incidents and discussions are a single issue. Absent any neutral source stating that it is so, this looks like POV... and absent any source connecting these various issues, it looks like original research. --Nat Gertler (talk) 03:37, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I tend to agree with NatGertler's analysis. There is little connecting tissue among the diverse instances cited in this article, unless it would be a general wrangling about what Christmas "really" is. The "controversy" is about religion, and differing viewpoints of it, and how those views play out in larger society - essentially about what the place of religion is in society. The fact that all sides are POV does not bother me much, because the main purpose of WP:NPOV is to provide the means by which viewpoint can be presented and discussed neutrally in articles. A true adherence to that principle can indeed provide a beneficial contribution to WP. But "Christmas" represents only one point around which such contentions occur, so it is not surprising either that "Christmas controversy" does not much appear as a separate term. Title aside, there is only one way to knit the subject together in the article, and that is to stop treating it simply as a collection of news items. Those things are examples. But it is unifying research that can put them into perspective. It is therefore not surprising that the article has sometimes taken on an impression of WP:OR, but that only means that it is lacking the WP:RS research sources that will make this into a real article. Evensteven (talk) 07:05, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Based on this article's talk page archives, the title of this article was changed from "War on Christmas" to "Christmas Controversy" due to POV concerns with previous title. However, I would not have any objections to changing the title of this article again to "Christmas Controversies" to more accurately reflect the content of this article. Again, I agree this article is a mess due to concerns described above, but I would prefer to see these concerns addressed by improving this article instead of removing this article from Wikipedia. This article at least attempts to summarize the controversies surrounding the celebration of Christmas from neutral point of view, which I believe is a valid subject for a Wikipedia article. Mistercontributer (talk) 16:35, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We'd have to include the date controversy also of course. Dougweller (talk) 18:31, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I quite agree with these comments as well. I see no reason for an AfD, but an appropriate rename would be desirable. I tend to prefer NatGertler's "Controversies regarding Christmas" to "Christmas Controversies" as a clearer description of the topic, though I can't quite conjure a title I would really consider to be of the essence. Btw, I agree with the 2005 opinion that "War on Christmas" can be considered POV. But I do have to wonder if that is not really the term by which this set of controversies is named out there. The world does not obey WP:NPOV (nor does it have to), and the title is meant to direct the WP reader to a subject in the most natural way possible. Is POV really the policy that should be held highest? But perhaps all that has been argued before. As for content, if it's a controversy connected with Christmas, I'd say it falls within the article's scope, and that would include the date too, if anyone wants to add it.
So assuming we now have dispatched these fundamental considerations, I would ask if anyone knows of actual WP:RS researched sources that consider and analyze and weigh the new items and blogs and shouts that get so much attention. The article is in so much need of actual research (instead of reporting) that editors may be sorely tempted to supply some. Good research is in fact what is needed. It's just that OR from editors cannot possibly be allowed to supply that lack. So where is it to be found? If I knew, I'd supply some. But perhaps it is worth asking whether or not there really is any good research on this. If not, a good article will not be possible, however desirable it might be. However much we might want one, if an article is impracticable, we might as well close up shop and consider AfD again. I confess that I find it dismaying that an article of 10+ years' standing has yet to produce a more solid foundation for its existence. I do have to question the viability of an article that, despite attention, remains in such lowly condition. There does come a time to cut dead weight loose. I suggest this comment for consideration, but with all due regard for the limits of my perspective here. Evensteven (talk) 21:49, 29 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Christians who do not observe Christmas

An editor recently deleted some reference to Christians who do not observe Christmas, with an edit comment that suggested that such a thing did not exist. The edit has been appropriately reverted, but to stave off a recurrence, allow me to point any interested editor to this Jehovah's Witnesses article where it is explained why various Christians do not observe the holiday on any date. --Nat Gertler (talk) 05:16, 20 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

With such things in mind, I have also revised the article text a little in order to neutralize (somewhat) the overly-bald statement that may have caused the original objection. Evensteven (talk) 14:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that, far from neutralizing it, your edit had just the other effect. At no point in this article do we refer to Christians who celebrate Christmas as anything but "Christians"; putting those who do not celebrate into a category for merely being people who acknowledge themselves to be Christians is granting their Christianity less certainty. (And if anyone wants to argue that other people who deem themselves Christians might not see them as Christians, the mere existence of at least two groups that deem themselves the One True Church ensures that is true for every Christian.) I am reverting that change. --Nat Gertler (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think that, far from making remarks about who we think Christians are, that their self-profession as Christians is the most neutral thing that can be used. It is true that some other Christians may disagree about who is included in the category of "Christians", and that is why the original commenter (in the article) objected in the first place. I, as an Orthodox Christian, don't happen to think it is my responsibility to go around pointing fingers at who is Christian and who is not. In fact, that attitude is directly and forcefully opposed by Orthodox teaching as being judgmental, so please cast no aspersions. I am very definitely in the camp who wishes to preserve maximum neutrality here. I just don't agree with you that there is a "category for merely being people who acknowledge themselves to be Christians". There is no "merely" about it. Jehovah's Witnesses do not "merely" acknowledge themselves as Christians, and neither do I. That self-acknowledgement is important to all of us, and it is the only way we have of neutrally identifying Christians here on WP. Otherwise, there will always be some other "authority" defining who Christians are, and we both know how that won't work. The article text as it was has a neutrality problem, as evidenced by the commenter. As I changed it to be, I addressed that problem. If you have an alternate solution you think would work better, I'd like to see it in an edit, or perhaps in discussion. But I'd very much like to try (with you) to find something better than what the article used to say, for that was still problematic. Evensteven (talk) 15:21, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Under that logic, we cannot refer to anyone or anything as "Christian". If you need reliable sources that say that the JWs or any of the many other groups we list are "Christian" groups, I would have no problem providing them in droves, and referring to them simply as "Christian" fits in with WP:self-identification. That one IP editor was apparently ignorant of the facts is not a reason for this POV change. (As for whether it's POV, how would you feel if Orthodox Christians and only Orthodox Christians were referred to as "people who claim to be Christians"?) --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:17, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've reverted Evensteven, that just looks awful - as though Wikipedia were saying "they aren't really Christians, they just call themselves Christians". Dougweller (talk) 18:07, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@NatGertler, you still seem to be under a mistaken impression about Orthodoxy. Please let me try to correct the notion that I have any problem with JWs calling themselves Christians, or that I have any intention of saying that only Orthodox are Christians. The latter is a misconstrual of what the Orthodox mean when they call Orthodoxy the One True Church, and in particular is an improper assumption - an extension of effect because some people do say "this person or group is Christian" and "another is not". The Orthodox Church does not do that by way of denigration. If some Orthodox do, it is to their own shame; it is nevertheless the nature of people to err. Please recognize it as erring, not as something accepted as proper by Orthodoxy.
@Dougweller, both you and Nat seem to dislike strongly what I wrote, so I'll withdraw it. I still think the article reads with a subtle jab at (all) Christians because some of them do not celebrate Christmas. I can't say, Nat, what the original commenter thought, but I can say that I am not in the least uninformed about JW beliefs in this matter and it still reads with a jab. Nor do I blame JWs for not celebrating it; I would think that, believing as they do about Jesus, that it would be consistent with their faith not to celebrate Christmas, at least as it is currently manifested, both secularly and religiously. In that matter, they are remaining true to their faith. I think you are both reading other things into what I wrote. However, I also think there are many reasons for that predisposition to be there, and I take your shared dislike as a sign that many other people would probably take it wrongly too. So I withdraw my edit. I don't think it was mistaken (inherently), but I do think it doesn't get the idea across. To call any of this issue a matter of POV is going beyond where I would go. Still, I would prefer a different language in the article that is more neutral than the status quo. It is not perfect. If either of you has a different approach, I'd love to be able to support it. Evensteven (talk) 18:54, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. As I presume you know, historically there have been and still are devout groups of Christians who don't celebrate Christmas, eg the Churches of Christ. And see Christmas in Puritan New England. I never thought of the wording as a jab against Christians and still can't see how it is. Dougweller (talk) 20:49, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, thanks, I do know that. Even the early Christians didn't celebrate it, and it only grew gradually into an observance within Christianity (i.e., with church services) at all. It was never considered a prominent feast day until it became a pairing with the Theophany (Epiphany) on January 6th, the two both being observances of the incarnation. As to the jab, I just hope most others look at it that way. If no one is trying to be testy with it, then there is no jab. Perhaps I was looking at it suspiciously because this is an article where some might like to take a pot shot. And I don't like those, whichever direction they come from. Evensteven (talk) 23:30, 6 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Propose Move to War on Christmas

I was surprised to see TWoC redirected to this article because TWoC is a term often used in recent years to describe the CC. Having an article of that name is not POV as there are plenty of RS using the phrase, not as a claim there is an actual war on Christmas, but because the subjects the sources cover use that term. WP:COMMONNAME is the applicable guideline. I think this is very similar to The War On Women, for which we do have an article.

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