The Beatles Unassessed

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Software: Computing Unassessed

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Archives
2004–August 2005 October 2005–January 2006 February 2006–April 2006 May 2006 June 2006 (1) June 2006 (2)

Whoever did the pictures of them one-to-a-section with the alternating sides and the captions and the awesome deserves an awesomeness award. Best use of pictures I've seen on the Wiki. Atropos 01:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who did that but I like it a great deal too. Unfortunately well-meaning people keep coming along and placing images in between those 4, spoiling the effect somewhat :) --kingboyk 10:45, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well; I put the one in with Klein, because it is right under the paragraph about Olympic studio and the argument they had about him. The whole article was rather long, and I thought a little photo would illustrate it a bit - especially about McCartney pretending to sign. Is that the one you mean?

WHOOPS! I have just seen the "speedy deletion" comment, about the Klein photo. I didn´t know it was unauthorised. (Honest, your lordship, it were not me...) I have sent it to the great trash can in the sky.

The Beatlemania photo should be one showing girls/boys going "ape-excrement"/crazy - which was Beatlemania, was it not?.

I took one out yesterday, which was "The Beatles in 1968", which seemed too large, and out of place.

I know Atropos loved the photos (which are brilliant) but did he read the article? This is the gist of it, after all... no? andreasegde 21:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Of course I did. :P Atropos 18:17, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Great, but what do you think about it? Do you think that there should only be the 4 photos (that are wonderful) in the article, or should we add more? Colour, or black and white? How big? I´m being co-operative, by the way, and it´s excellent that someone has said something nice. andreasegde 18:45, 1 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

what they thought of Martin luther King JR. ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.228.187.227 (talk • contribs) 20:30, 2 July 2006

Please note; an anonymous editor using the above IP address has been admonished for "vandalising" the Martin Luther King article.LessHeard vanU 20:41, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The anonymous user is likely User:Dragong4 who is blocked for 6 months from editing anywhere on Wikipedia. 216.21.150.44 21:13, 2 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

McCartney continued to live in the city, first in a house in the centre of town, and then at a larger property in St John's Wood, a short distance from Abbey Road Studios. He was often seen at major cultural events such as the launch party for the International Times at The Roundhouse (which he attended in disguise). He also avidly delved into the visual arts, becoming a close friend of leading art dealers and gallery owners, explored experimental film, and regularly attended movie, theatrical and classical music performances.

This was taken from McCartney on WP.

Also this:

[[1]] Ian Peel: The Unknown Paul McCartney - Reynolds & Hearn (November 1, 2002)

“What emerges from Ian Peel´s book is a unique insight into Paul McCartney’s little–known contribution to avant–garde music. Ian Peel is a British music journalist with a special interest in digital dance music and other experimental forms.”

andreasegde 20:08, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The whole first half of "Changes in their music" is only about the individual Beatles, and it could easily go onto their own pages.

To be honest, the whole piece is like wandering through a Beatles museum sideways. It repeats stuff that is available elsewhere (or should be somewhere else) and reads like a talk page. It’s a mess. Kick me in my lunchbox if I’m wrong…

I thought I had taken these out, but it seems that they are still there:

“Reportedly stung by criticism of "Paperback Writer", The Beatles poured their creative energies into the recording studio.” (No citation)

“Throughout their career The Beatles' songs were rarely riff (or ostinato)-driven” (Rock and Roll, anyone?...)

“to nonsense songs and others defying description.” (POV)

andreasegde 20:50, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Your lunchbox remains unkicked: The section is a mess that needs to be rewritten and reorganized, top to bottom. - DavidWBrooks 21:15, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.

Right; (sound of heavy machinery being started up...) I will roll up my sleeves... andreasegde 21:20, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have taken out a lot - but not all - as I am being careful not to look like a vandal. If nobody kicks me in the area that contains my colon I will continue snipping. andreasegde 21:53, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want to start messing with the text here, but a) can anybody give citation for "one farthing in the £"? It could be right, but 2 to 4% was the norm in the 60s. and b) as for DJM taking 50% on publishing - that's a standard publishing contract and would pretty much apply to anybody except for established songwriters in a position to negotiate. As for Epstein taking a %age of the songwriting royalties, I would be surprised if there's any managers that didn't take a percentage. Prior to the Beatles, managers often used to take all the money, just paying a fixed wage to the artist. --Richhoncho 22:12, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

For 1963 they received less than 1 farthing for each member per double-sided disc, and half that on overseas sales. Millions of records were sold under this original Parlophone contract

The EMI/parlophone deal Epstein signed on behalf of the Beatles was pathetic and George Martin was later to describe it as 'pretty awful'. There were no advance payments. A 12-track album would only be counted as six cuts. There were three one-year options with an increase of a quarter of a penny at the end of the first year and an increase of a halfpenny at the end of the second year (Harry. Encyclopedia, p. 118).

http://www.beatlemoney.com/beatles6063management.htm

Northern Songs (publishing) was set up on 22 February 1963: 51% Dick James and Charles Silver, 20% each John and Paul, 9% Brian Epstein. A new 5 year management contract was signed on 1 October 1962 giving NEMS/Epstein 25% commission. http://www.bemuso.com/articles/beatlesbusiness.html

andreasegde 10:44, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In which case according to Beatmoney article, they were signed at 1% (depending on the actual wording of the contract)with increments of 1 farthing according to sales. As for the publishing contract, I assume the royalties would have been split on a standard 50/50 (50% for the publishing company 50% for the publishers). The fact the John & Paul each owned 20% of the publishing company was extremely generous for the time. I can't think of an earlier example of songwriters owning part of the publishing co (save where they acually set up a commercial publisher and were songwriters as well. Actually the Beatles changed the whole concept of songwriting/publishing, but nobody would have foreseen that in 1963.--Richhoncho 12:09, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Northern Songs was set up on 22 February 1963: 51% Dick James and Charles Silver, 20% each John and Paul, 9% Brian Epstein.

Don´t forget that Epstein then took 25% of Lennon and McCartney´s publishing earnings.

Maybe 50-50 was common in the fifties - but I think was called 99%-nothing by some artists, but 60-40%, 70-30%, and even 80,20% are accepted as the norm. andreasegde 12:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

50/50 for publishing co/songwriter (for royalties) was and is accepted as the norm in 50s through to this decade. Nothing has changed, With Len & Mac having 20% each of the publishing co issued capital means their income stream from songwriting was 60% between the 2 of them. Very generous for a "new" band. This excludes Epstein's "management" %age which would come out afterwards in any event. Although other %ages do exist, I'd like to see where you get your quotes from. BTW I forgot to mention an "advance" is only record co-speak for "loan against future sales" --Richhoncho 13:56, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, we can laugh about this "Richhoncho". If you say 50-50 is the norm, then where is your citation? (I am a crap at maths, and I hate calculators, that´s why I have an accountant.) Lennon got 25% - less Eptein´s 25% cut of Lennon´s 25%... Hmmm...

Publishing? I have personally signed three contracts. (This is called original research, no? Ouch!) Two were 60-40, and one was 70-30. This was in the 80s, and 90s. Anyway; who needs publishers today? All you need is a bloodhound to track down the missing loot. andreasegde 14:20, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are only three kinds of people in the world: those who can count, and those that can't! Vera, Chuck & Dave 15:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well, ASCAP, BMI, & PRS pay out 50% to the publisher and 50% to the writers automatically (unless otherwise specifically told) - couldn't find a net quote to confirm 50/50 other than [2] I'll check Donald Passman's book later. BTW Sheet music used to be about 15% for the composer. BTW If I could cite this I would have changed the article! --Richhoncho 15:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That was a little joke:) On a more serious note, I read and old Melody Maker and it said that The Fabs were being taxed at 19/11d in the pound on all their income! Same with the Stones, who before releasing "Beggar's Banquet" were almost broke!! Cheers,Vera, Chuck & Dave 16:34, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This is the infamous "unearned income" bag of tricks. It´s based on hard labour, and not sitting back on a deckchair and "watching the wheels go round"... There was a point in the early 60s where they made more money by playing live; because they were physically working... and paid less tax. Bugger... andreasegde 18:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that info, Bugger...Indeed Sir!! Cheers Pal, Vera, Chuck & Dave 19:27, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(ps. It should be known that there in fact only 10 types of people in this world;

Those that understand binary code and those that don't!) LessHeard vanU 21:43, 6 July 2006 (UTC) I know this has nothing to do with Royalties, but it has been my joke de jour for over a week now...[reply]

Then that would be your joke (farce) de la semaine... — Dave 00:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Dead Gear"! Vera, Chuck & Dave 14:36, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I'm just a trifle confused about why these two paragraphs don't belong with the other technical information about their studio habits. -MBlume 17:48, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Current location is most bizarre. I think it should go into "Instrumentation", which ought to be prose. (When The KLF underwent its recent Featured Article Candidacy, we were advised to convert our Instrumentation section into prose, and since this is already a Featured Article I guess the same should happen here). --kingboyk 18:02, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Which paragraphs do you mean? Kick me in my waste depository, because I moved the mics section a bit lower in the "Studio band" section. I think it made more sense, timeline wise... andreasegde 18:00, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

--kingboyk 18:04, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I see no problem with it. It breaks up the prose with a bit of technical/film/interesting stuff about their time in the studio, and the rooftop gig. I have often been asked "What are those mics?" when watching "Anthology" with friends. Putting it into a technical/instrument article would only be of interest to the people that are interested in that kind of thing - but I´m sure that they know that already. Who would (honestly) read it?

I agree that it doesn´t flow very well, but we can fix that, can´t we?

Earlier in the article it is mentioned that they "ping-ponged" 4 tracks to two. Should that go to "technical"? I hope not. I put in the quote about McCartney asking what a guitar would sound like underwater, and there isn´t anything yet about Lennon singing through a "Lesley" keyboard loudspeaker. Is that technical?

This could go on and on. (I sincerely hope not...) andreasegde 18:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The prose went: the stress of being The Beatles after the death of Mr Epstein; microphones; Yoko Ono. Doesn't seem too logical to me :) --kingboyk 18:47, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it doesn´t flow very well, but we can fix that, can´t we? Hit those keys, guys! Ahhhh.... It´s been moved anyway, and I don´t mind.

Now.... what are we going to do about "Changes in their music"? It´s awful. Does anyone think it´s any good? andreasegde 18:58, 6 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The Beatles line up was still changing. In spring 1962 the fifth member of The Beatles bassist Stuart Sutcliffe died of a brain hemorrhage". Sutcliffe wasn't a member in 1962. Cheers Vera, Chuck & Dave 23:00, 7 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be ok to insert a link to temporary drummer Jimmy Nicol here In mid-1964 the band undertook their first appearances outside of Europe and North America, touring Australia and New Zealand as I think It gets overlooked otherwise.--Patthedog 09:03, 8 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]