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I'm attempting to add annotated historical content to the Owen Hargreaves article about the controversy caused in Canada by his decision to play for the English national team. My edits are continuously deleted by a User PeeJay2K3 without putting up any proof that the controversy is untrue. How do I escalate? — Preceding unsigned comment added by LilOwens (talk • contribs) 16:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You may open a discussion at WT:FOOTY. But please sign your edits. --Jaellee (talk) 19:20, 9 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If goals and appearances are unknown for a player due to lack of sources, what is the appropriate way of displaying the lack of information in the infobox? --MicroX (talk) 17:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In such cases I leave the goals and apps empty. --Jaellee (talk) 18:44, 31 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It appears that assists/clean sheets are not included in the template table. Does it mean that we need to help remove the assists and clean sheets columns in all of the football player articles?--Miunouta (talk) 23:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Assists and Clean Sheets should be removed per WP:FOOTY JMHamo (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If that's the case, then why my edits to Cesc Fabregas were undone? I removed the assists cells based on what you said.--Miunouta (talk) 16:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I included the old version and the new version below.

Old Version

Fabregas new stats table

--Miunouta (talk) 16:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to provide a reference to every single season in the stats table like the Carl Jenkinson article does? Or should we simply replace it by one single reference that includes all of the stats? I added this ESPN page http://espnfc.com/player/_/id/150844/carl-jenkinson?cc=5901#ui-tabs-1 and removed the 4 soccerbase references while keeping the source for the one FA Trophy game he played. However, my edits were reverted by the administrator. So, should we have a source for every season? Thanks. --Miunouta (talk) 23:22, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Every season needs its own cite, good articles include divisions and season references in the career stats table, such as Luke Foster and Lee Hughes, so this is what we should be adhering to. JMHamo (talk) 00:31, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But over 90% of the articles listed as 'good articles' do not include divisions and season references in the career stats table, such as Xabi Alonso, Ben Amos, Micky Adams, Mario Balotelli, Joey Barton, Dennis Bergkamp... Instead, they mostly just have 1-3 references at the top and I personally think that looks much cleaner. So what you are saying does not seem to be coherent. Maybe most of the articles in the 'good articles' list should be removed from the list based on what you said.--Miunouta (talk) 00:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Good articles" have to pass a specific set of WP-wide criteria. That doesn't necessarily make them examples of best practice WP:FOOTY-wise. And improving Wikipedia is a gradual process: nothing happens overnight. As to row-by-row referencing, people seem to be going over to doing that. It's easier for the curious reader to tell which reference applies to which set of stats: we shouldn't expect them to search through a row of refs at the top of the article if they want to verify a particular stat. And from a wishful-thinking point of view, if the anon editors who do most of the updating on stats tables get used to the idea of inline sources, they may be more likely to update with reference to that source, rather than just ignoring some number in square brackets miles above the row they're updating. If there's a particular reliable source that does verify every (or nearly every) entry in the stats table, it does no harm to repeat the link on each row. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:57, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is it necessary to add a note that states what European competition a player played in like the Carl Jenkinson article does? I removed the note because no other articles do that but it was put back by the administrator. So do we need to do the same for every other applicable article? Thanks.--Miunouta (talk) 23:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes is the short answer. If a player plays in many European competitions over his career, it's important to be able to see quickly what they were involved in that season. JMHamo (talk) 00:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But it seems like few of the 'good articles' have that kind of information in them. Is it that they should not be considered as 'good articles' or it is just unnecessary to include that information?--Miunouta (talk) 00:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See #Citation for stats table above re good articles and gradual improvement. It's "unnecessary" to include a stats table at all. If we're including one, it makes sense to include information helpful to the reader. The informative notes below the tables are a fairly recent introduction, and are being gradually adopted. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. Is a 'Total' row needed if the player has only played for the club for one season (e.g. one-year loan spell)? What if it is the current season?
2. Do we need to add multiple 'Total' rows if a player has 2 or more spells at one club? For example, if the player has 2 spells at a club, should the second 'Total' be the sum of the first 'Total' and the second one? What if they have 3 spells at the same club?
3. Shouldn't the league cells/rows be merged if it's the same league?
4. Shouldn't the template include a Continental(e.g. Europe) column?
5. How are we supposed to indicate what cups the player has played for?
6. The situation where cup or other is not applicable is not demonstrated in the template.
7. What should the seasons link to? For example, should we link 2000–01 to 2000–01 Premier League or 2000–01 Template United F.C. season? What if none of the two exist?
8. Should season cells be merged if the player played at 2 or more clubs in one season? If so, what if they played in different leagues?
--Miunouta (talk) 04:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. Not in my opinion.

2. If they're physically adjacent in the table, e.g. a loan immediately above a permanent spell, I'd have just one total row for the lot. If they're physically separate, I'd have separate, independent totals rows, i.e. the second/third totals would not include figures from previous spells.

3. No. It's easier for a sighted reader to read along a line; if there are multiple rowspanned columns, particularly if the player has had a long career with several years at each of several clubs and changes of division don't coincide with changes of club, the eyeline goes up and down like a yo-yo. Also, I was told once by a reviewer with expertise in accessibility issues that many screen readers can't cope with rowspans after the first column, so mislead their users; don't know if that's still the case, but assuming it is, we shouldn't be recommending a structure that some users can't access.

4. Whatever's appropriate. Most players don't play in continental competition.

5. That layout, like the rest of the page, only gives a rough idea. Most editors would separate "Cup" into FA Cup and League Cup for players playing solely in England, or National Cup and {generic) League Cup for players playing in several countries. Whatever's appropriate. As with the European or Other columns, we can always add footnotes if necessary.

6. See 5. Omit whatever's inappropriate.

7. Assuming the club season article would be independently notable, i.e. club playing in a top or fully professional league, then definitely club season. It's considerably more likely to be relevant to the player, and by extension to the reader looking at the table and wanting further information, than the league season. If a notable club season doesn't exist, still link to it. redlinks are good; they encourage people to write the missing article. Link to league season only if the club season isn't notable.

8. No. See 3 and 7.

Another thing some editors do is to format a cell pair as colspan="2"|— (instead of zeroes) when the club didn't play in the relevant competition while the player was registered with them: e.g., as at Chris Burke (footballer)#Career statistics.

Thank you very much for setting out such a constructive set of questions. Not sure whether I should format my replies like this, or intersperse them with the questions. If people think interspersed would be better, please feel free to reformat, and copy my sig up to each reply, or ask me to do it, whatever. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Very well answered Struway2. I like your approach. Can I just give a visual example of a career stats table, which I think is perfect and should be the template for ALL player articles that include a stats table.. Matt Green has a long career, played in many different leagues and cups and the way his table is formatted allows me to see what I need quickly. This is the standard we should be reaching to achieve in my opinion. JMHamo (talk) 10:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I just saw Chris Burke... a perfect example for European competition stats. JMHamo (talk) 10:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Thanks so much for answering! I am sorry but I do have a couple more questions regarding the stats table. Please refer to tables I posted in the Assists/Clean sheets section.

9. Where should we include competitions like the FA Community Shield (1 round), the Spanish Super Cup (2 rounds), FIFA Club World Cup, UEFA Super Cup, and DFB-Ligapokal (abandoned)? 'Cup' or 'Other'?

10. It seems that people do not agree on whether or not assists/clean sheets should be removed. Assists are not included in Chris Burke (footballer)#Career statistics, but when I removed the assists columns in Cesc Fabregas, it was considered as nonconstructive and my edits were undone. So, what should we do?

Thanks!--Miunouta (talk) 17:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My 2 cents:

3. & 8. I prefer merged cells. It's then easier to see (especially if the player has a long spell in one league) that it was each season the same league.

4. Only necessary if the player (or at least the club) took part in a continental competition.

9. Other.

10. Remove both.

For the others I agree with the answers above. --Jaellee (talk) 18:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! I strongly agree with you on merged cells. Let's take Ryan Giggs as an example, it looks much cleaner and much easier for readers to see that he's only been playing in the Premier League since his third season at Man Utd because we used merged cells.

Could you please help improve the template I provided for Cesc Fabregas and migrate it to the actual article? Thanks.--Miunouta (talk) 20:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]