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"Clashes" indicates two sides fighting more or less equally. Can we change this to "raids", a more one-sided term. My understanding is that military and police armed with firearms and tear gas attacked protesters armed with sticks and rocks. "Massacre" is probably too strong a word at this point because it does not seem to have been widely used in the press. Jehochman ^Talk 11:49, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There's reports and videos of some of the protestors firing back with automatic weapons. Some of them were confiscated after their arrest. But they appear to have been a minority, and only responding to attacks by the security forces. "Raids" as a title fits. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 13:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would also add "14 AUgust 2013 Egyptian raids" as there will be repercussions of more violence TIED to this in the coming days in August, so we should clarify when it all began. Then the "aftermath" section can cover it. Also don't gorget the Aftermath of the coup page will also carry other details. So this separate event needs to indicate it happened on the 14th.(Lihaas (talk) 13:27, 15 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

I agree, 'August 2013' suggest we are discussing a much wider angle here. So this should be renamed to August 2013 Egyptian 'clashes' or 'protest', which resulted in a raid in 14 august. — Preceding unsigned comment added by PLNR (talk • contribs) 01:27, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

With every WP page for a major world event, there's a rush to add a huge list of "World reactions". Invariably these reactions are non-committal and say little. "We feel bad for the loss of life blah blah blah". They add very little to the article, take up huge space, and say the same things over and over again. They should be summarized, with more space given to the most important.

The section for the USA's reaction should be given more prominence since they give 1.5 billion in aid to the military and have said that this is under review. That's actually something meaningful. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 15:23, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that countries near Egypt would count more than a country that does not even neighbor Egypt. Not to mention that focus on the aid might be non netural. --Super Goku V (talk) 21:12, 15 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should most of them be erased or added to a new article just for reactions? ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 00:12, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We can add the reactions by Countries to a new article just for them and leave the local reactions and major organizations like the UN. --Super Goku V (talk) 01:06, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, though I am afraid it might get deleted. The Reaction to the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting barely made it because it was considered an "exceptionally compelling case". Your call, but thanks for the reply. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 01:33, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then it looks like option B is the next idea. Leave only the ten to fifteen countries whose reactions are decided to be beneficial to the article or are important enough to remain. --Super Goku V (talk) 08:33, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't like having a "Reactions to" article for every single world event. It's very silly. We don't need full quotes from most of these countries reactions. We can simply summarize. What I propose:

• Keep the reactions of Egypt's neighbors. Summarize their contents, don't always need full quotes.
• Keep the reactions of the UN, and other major international bodies. Try to summarize and reduce size.
• Keep USA's response, as they have close ties and give aid
• For the other countries, simply say something like "Dozens of other countries, such as Germany, France and Sweden condemned the crackdown"
• Possibly keep Bahrain's reaction, simply because I think it's the only one in support of the crackdown.

--Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:18, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the two countries whose reactions were delivered via twitter. If they're not even going to bother releasing a professional official statement, I don't think it should be listed. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Its blatantly POV to select what is notable. Its encylopaedic to mention what is cited to RS. That's for the reader to choose.

taking up space is irrelevant, it does not cross WP:Article size.

"I really don't like having a "Reactions to" article " See WP:IDONTLIKEIT and this fits in perfectly as its explicitly said that "I don't klike" and the user arbitrarily removesd reactions! AND "more prominence" is a POV-push. WP doesn't decide notability.!(Lihaas (talk) 16:08, 16 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

• Looks like the government has been warning protesters to disperse, for weeks.

• Security officials in charge of riot police units said they had been given notice Sunday to prepare their forces to cordon off the Rabaah site and another protest across town near Cairo University in Giza. Reports emerged of units coming to Cairo from around the country to take part in the operation.

• The security forces had planned to form cordons around the two sites as early as dawn Monday, allowing protesters to leave but preventing others from getting in, to minimize casualties before using water cannons and tear gas, officials told The Associated Press.

• Two days before the raid, news leaked that police were going to cordon off access to the sit-in sites early Monday, protesters took to the streets by the tens of thousands, and many made their way into the protest camps.

• After thousands streamed in and swelled the size of the sit-ins, however, security officials became concerned about the increased chance of bloodshed, and they decided not to move on the camps. "We were stunned by the masses" who came to the camps, one military official told the AP.

• The Interior Ministry has depicted the encampments as a public danger, saying 11 bodies bearing signs of torture were found near both sites. Amnesty International has also reported that anti-Morsi protesters have been captured, beaten, subjected to electric shocks or stabbed. At least eight bodies have arrived at a morgue in Cairo bearing signs of torture, the human rights group said.

• Protesters have been fortifying the sit-ins camps. In Rabaah, men with helmets, sticks and what appeared to be protective sports equipment guarded barricades made of sandbags, truck tires and bricks. They have also built three concrete waist-high barriers against armored vehicles.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=211244264 — Preceding unsigned comment added by PLNR (talk • contribs) 02:53, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi everyone,

Someone should add the death toll which was given by the Ikhwan (2600 protesters killed) in the infobox. It may seem to you unrealistic, but if you want to be balanced and fair, you have to mention the two numbers.

Good bye. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.73.222.31 (talk) 15:05, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why is there a military conflict infobox (right hand side) in this article? This is inappropriate given that there aren't two militaries opposed to each other, or even a guerilla group opposed to a military. Its a military opposing a political/religious group. In fact, this event resembles a massacre by most definitions although many news sources are choosing not to use this term. Massacre artciles don't have military infoboxes. But this is getting into another subject, article naming, which I don't want to address now. This box should be removed.

Whoever added the box, if you wish, please explain why you did so and how this conforms to practice in other wiki articles. Thank you.Furtfurt (talk) 16:46, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, consider it a civil conflict inforbox, but the idea is the same. Same informative purpose.(Lihaas (talk) 12:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

'Egyptian civil war' on the authority that ]http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/08/16/egypt-coup-civil-war/2665313/ "Egypt fits the dictionary definition of a civil war, or a war between two geographical or political factions of the same nation"".HighIntellectual (talk) 23:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(I moved comment above from another talk page). I don't see that reliable sources in general refer to this as a civil war, so I don't think Wikipedia should either. One statement that this is or may be a civil war is not enough, if most media don't refer to it as such. We should be somewhat careful here. Regards, Iselilja (talk) 23:22, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• There is already another section, dealing with title change, so I don't see why you decided to rename the article based on some loose definition, without any discussion/consensus, with this section being an after the fact thing. Also this current-event article, linked from Wikipedia main-page, so please revert and start an official vote for rename to gain consensus. --PLNR (talk) 23:40, 16 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would also ask that you stop editing other pages with the purpose of preemptively calling it a civil war. If and only if this page name changes, the wikilinks to this page should do the same. And please do not rename this article three times without even inquiring as to why you are consistently being reverted and the page being move protected. 8ty3hree (talk) 03:33, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Even IF Egypt has a vcivil war that would be another article with background info leading to this. The events are seperaevv.(Lihaas (talk) 05:43, 17 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

The USA Today article basically says "Yes, you could call it a Civil War but it isn't, not really." Some source. Yintan  10:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Correct. Even HighIntellectual's cited source does not support their argument. They also seem to be uninterested in stopping or slowing their POV-pushing: they are continuing to make article content changes with the same goal in mind. -- Chronulator (talk) 10:49, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We should be very conservative about using the term "civil war" based on the principle of plausibility. Just because one source talks about it as if it is a "civil war" that doesn't plausibly make the possible early stages of conflict a "civil war". In this case, the citation doesn't make it so. Crtew (talk) 19:39, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As I cited, Al Jazeera MENTUOINED civil war, but only as a possibility(Lihaas (talk) 12:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

In the newly created section 'Attack on journalists'[1]

Why do we need to list every journalist name/profession job resume and other irrelevant info to the August 2013 Egyptian raids?

IMO, it should provide the amount of dead and statements at the bottom that there was violation of 'freedom of press' and or 'human rights' and relevant examples/info summarized. --PLNR (talk) 21:05, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Your commentary in the summary of edits suggests that you want to set out the 4 journalists deaths in proportion to over 600 deaths by space, which would mean you would measure the section 4/600. You couldn't have been serious or have thought that summary out much. The killing of journalists was a significant part of what happened on Wednesday morning. It doesn't detract in anyway from the huge loss of life or the changed political situation in Egypt. Still, the killing of journalists is a violation of international law. There are many articles about journalists who have been killed across many countries in Wikipedia. And it is more than reasonable to assume that there are going to be some readers who come to this article only for this one reason. Your desire to trim has had some beneficial results, but when you start taking out elements of importance that readers will want to know about, then I think that's problematic. My edits throughout Wikipedia are pretty much devoted to this area, and I know the subject matter very well and Wikipedia policy. Crtew (talk) 21:19, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My comment in the summary was to put thing into perspective, hinting that amount of detail may not be notable to the the topic at hand.(as opposed to one of many other articles about journalists in Wikipedia) Can you answer the specific question I asked. How is a complete list of journalist name/profession job resume (and other irrelevant info), of every journalists killed, inured and detained is relevant/notable to this article and not a violation of WP:NOTMEMORIAL? --PLNR (talk) 21:49, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For every genre of information there are going to be expected data that pertains to the subject matter. You may take a look at the websites for the Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ.org), Reporters Without Borders (RSF.org), or others, and all of them will include the name, position, medium and outlet at a minimum. For example, photographers are particularly vulnerable as they are very close to the action in most situations. It's important to know if the person is a native or a foreign correspondent. Native journalists are far more likely to be killed. And experience matters, too. When somebody with the experience of a Marie Colvin or an Yves Debay is killed in Syria, that's important as it is a key indicator of the level of danger in a particular situation. As for the others, you're looking at people killed an injured shot in the head and back and feet, and that indicates targeting. Furthermore, the information here doesn't even come close to a resume or a memorial as the context of their inclusion is clearly laid out. This was the day on which the most journalists in Egypt have been killed since at least 1992. That is going to be significant. The legal/human rights ramifications of what the military has done is still unknown, but the deaths, injuries and detention of journalists would play an important role in any future situation. Crtew (talk) 22:07, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is not CPJ.org, RSF.org or some article on Wikipedia that discuss journalist. This is about 'August 2013 Egyptian raids' and you seem to have danced around my question. Unless you can show notability/relevance of that listing per Wikipedia standard, it has no place on this article --PLNR (talk) 22:29, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say this was those sites, but I pointed them out to you so that you could see that the type of information you seem to question as a standard, and Wikipedia has similar genre standards for different types of articles (e.g. the release dates of albums for music is similar to Allmusic.com, blah, blah blah, 1000s of other examples). All of those listed were victims on Wednesday with the exception of 1 journalist who puts the total killed so far into perspective. I've already pointed you to the notability statement and it's cited. Policy pointers: WP:Author and WP:SIGCOV.Crtew (talk) 22:45, 17 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The nationalist and the outlet the journalist worked for is pertinent and as such elucidates who was targeted, what perspevctive, etc.(Lihaas (talk) 06:23, 18 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

Does that mean you support this article as is? Also do you have any source to suggest that they were targeted as opposed to getting shot? Because from the videos I seen the police was very "liberal" with returning fire, they didn't seem like professionals, at least one guy were emptying clips on auto without even a hint of aiming(however, its possible that he was shooting at the air to scare the people)--PLNR (talk) 15:19, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Even if not targeted their presence within the protesters showed who went there. I don't see any pro-govt mouthpieces in there, for exambple(Lihaas (talk) 06:46, 19 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

The source cited clearly says that the organization attributed believes journalists were "targeted". There is no such source for "what I saw on TV" even if your viewing experience were to contradict what is said.Crtew (talk) 15:17, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User Lihaas reverted my edits with a comment "WTF do you think the tag is there for??!!!!" . I removed the section because it had uncited, unverified statements. Please when you add something especially on a topic that is a current event only add things with references. --Diaa abdelmoneim (talk) 09:15, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Theres no rule on that. Tags exist to get other editors to add to it

Anyway, statement in question is now sorted(Lihaas (talk) 12:13, 18 August 2013 (UTC)).[reply]

There have been several changes to the infobox side1, in the last day, please discuss them here instead of editing warring there.

Personally, I support the current variant, since raids wasn't against some coalition or organization, it was a police raid of the 'supporters of ousted President Mohamed Morsi' protest camps. As for its supporters its widest and most quoted supporter was the MB. --PLNR (talk) 16:51, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem with adding the Anti-Coup Alliance as a supporters per source provided[2]. However, I think its stupid to put the 'Affiliated parties' that comprise the Alliance its supporters, this is not about who support the Anti-Coup Alliance, this is not about the greater political conflict in Egypt, this is about the two raids on August. To which the police and protesters were part of.(Which is consistent with all sources on the article) Protesters which where supported by the 'Muslim Bortherhood', the 'Anti-Coup Alliance' etc...--PLNR (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Ref^[1] is a very recent reference showing that the National Coalition for Supporting Legitimacy are the current organizers and supports for the running demonstrations. Other many references can be added if needed.
• I believe that showing that the MB are the only supporting organization is misleading information.
• We should keep the information, especially if there are many supporting references.
• Also it's worth mentioning that the raids were against the NCSL, and not only MB. This is clear from the response of NCSL as cited in ^[1].

(Mazidan (talk) 18:35, 19 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]

National Coalition for Supporting Legitimacy is an old name, and the new one is Anti-Coup Alliance, which should be used. I second the opinion of keeping all the supported parties listed. (ZP12KL (talk) 18:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC))[reply]