This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Biography: Politics and Government Start‑class This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Mid-importance). Cuba Start‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Cuba, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Cuba related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CubaWikipedia:WikiProject CubaTemplate:WikiProject CubaCuba articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Cuba task list: Task list New article announcements: Requests: Ambrosio Cave, Calero Cave, Centella Cave, Cuba and the United Nations, Cuban Liberation Army, Cuevas de Punta del Este, Cura Cave, Patana Cave, Pluma Cave Stubs: Dollar store (Cuba) Verify: History of Cuba, Fulgencio Batista Update: Nochebuena NPOV: Armando Valladares, Delfín Fernández, History of Cuba Copyedit: Armando Peraza, Bay of Pigs Invasion, Fabio Grobart, Julio Antonio Mella Cleanup: Abelardo Colomé Ibarra, Antonio Maceo Grajales, Bay of Pigs Invasion, History of Cuba, List of Cubans, Máximo Gómez, War against the Bandits Style: Fidel Castro Expand: Cuba–Soviet Union relations, Baseball in Cuba, Religion in Cuba, Havana's International Book Fair, Cuba–Venezuela relations, Antonio Sánchez de Bustamante y Sirven Florida Start‑class Mid‑importance Florida portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Florida. If you would like to join us, please visit the project page; if you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.FloridaWikipedia:WikiProject FloridaTemplate:WikiProject FloridaFlorida articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Miami C‑class Top‑importance This article is part of WikiProject Miami, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the Miami metropolitan area on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.MiamiWikipedia:WikiProject MiamiTemplate:WikiProject MiamiMiami articles C This article has been rated as C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. University of Florida Start‑class (inactive) This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of Florida, a project which is currently considered to be inactive.University of FloridaWikipedia:WikiProject University of FloridaTemplate:WikiProject University of FloridaUniversity of Florida articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Conservatism Start‑class Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Conservatism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of conservatism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ConservatismWikipedia:WikiProject ConservatismTemplate:WikiProject ConservatismConservatism articles Start This article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the |auto= parameter.

Entire sections were blanked with no explanation, despite their being sourced. Let's not start editing out parts of articles without reason. Whether you like a politician or not, if it is sourced, I say we should leave it in. Gonzo808 09:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddb1965 (talk • contribs)

Looks like major edit warring has left this article a total cluster****. May be time for an extended semi-protect to try to get this article back into some decent shape. Safiel (talk) 03:50, 2 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The blanking was done by a Wikipedia moderator; those were my posts. Here is Wiki's opinion on the matter:

In that statement of Wikipedia policy, it states: "Biographies of living persons (BLPs) must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives, and the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. "

My point of view is that just because the information I posted was "titilating" doesn't mean it was MEANT to be, or was an attempt to hurt Mr. Rubio. Especially the part about different companies I posted that he worked for as a Lobbyist. How could that be construed as "tabloid" fodder? Basically Wikipedia told me that even if a fact is true, they can't post it because it might be harmful to the person. This guy is a political figure running for office, I think the world deserves to know the truths about him.

Here is an excerpt of the removed material (with sources):

Leon County court records show the Deutsche Bank National Trust Company was foreclosing on a home owned by Marco Rubio and state Representative David Rivera, who is running for Congress. Records show the two failed to make payments since January of 2010. The home is currently for sale, listed at $136,500, but court documents show that the balance of the mortgage on June 18th was $134,795. Leon County is the home to the capital city of Florida.

Rubio has a net worth of negative -$103,000.

http://www.wctv.tv/APNews/headlines/96686674.html

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1484-Bent-Willow-Drive_Tallahassee_FL_32311_1117874273

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/files/documents.pdf

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/national/marco-rubios-lavish-rise-to-the-top/1079473

Marco Rubio served as a Lobbyist in Miami from 1997 to 2005, according to court records in Miami-Dade county. Rubio registered as a Lobbyist seven times; three times in 1997, on mundane zoning and code enforcement efforts; twice in 1998 on behalf of a real estate effort and something called the American Sales & Management Org.; and once each in 2001 and 2002 as agent for companies listed as the Main Line Corp., a computer equipment company, and Pan American, a developer. Rubio filed a form closing out his record as a Lobbyist on May 31, 2005.

http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2010/mar/22/charlie-crist/crist-and-democrats-say-rubio-miami-lobbyist/

CAN SOMEONE PLEASE EDIT THIS INFO SO IT IS NOT 'TITILATING' AND PERCEIVED AS A DANGER TO MR. RUBIO????

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterdaveloose (talk • contribs) 19:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article includes He is best known for his book 100 Innovative Ideas for Florida's Future. I think that he is best known for his 2010 U.S. Senate campaign. Is some actual source for that "best known" claim? --Dezidor (talk) 11:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Made neutral. Removed claim. --Manway (talk) 13:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In spite of the fact that Harry Reid said that he is suprised that anyone of Hispanic origin can be a Republican, Marco is one.[1]"

Regardless of whether or not this is hearsay (note source), many people of Hispanic origin are Republican— it's relatively common. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.221.9.139 (talk) 13:55, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of grammar and punctuation issues. Also, "GOP" is a little informal for an encyclopedia entry, don't you think? This isn't supposed to be a newspaper aggregate--it's supposed to be a reference document. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.153.0.80 (talk) 19:05, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Marco Rubio has won the seat! - 99.150.203.11 (talk) 02:48, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It might be fun to mention that he's reportedly a fan of gangsta rap and that he was listening to "Sexy Bitch" while preparing for a debate with Charlie Crist and Kendrick Meek.--Heinleinscat (talk) 00:41, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just yesterday, there was a statement correctly informing that Rubio attends the Christ Fellowship Church. To remove this statement, and only identify him as Catholic, is misleading. It is more complete to include this information. However, if there is no agreement on this, it is best to remove his religion on the box at the right, and leave it in the text, until he clarifies his religious denomination. Template:Desertann

"but has apparently converted to Evangelical Protestantism, as he attends the Christ Fellowship Church in West Kendall, Florida." This line is both unfounded, as Rubio claims to be true to the Catholic faith of his parents, and judgmental. The diction is both condescending and unprofessional. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.129.227 (talk)

Yeah, and there's no source. It said Catholic just yesterday. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.196.239.161 (talk) 22:09, 3 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is locked, but I strongly suggest that the references to Rubio being a Southern Baptist and former Catholic be removed. As far as I know Rubio identifies himself as a Catholic. In addition, there is only one news report I was able to identify that says he attends a nondenominational Protestant Church (many subsequent sources cite to this). If necessary we could simply write "Rubio identifies himself as a Catholic but according to one report, he has attended the Christ Fellowship Church for the past six years" or something like that. In addition, it is especially misleading to write that he is a "Southern Baptist" in the bio box. Again, he identifies himself as a Catholic as far as I can tell. In addition, the Protestant church he attends defines itself as nondenominational and is only loosely, if at all, affiliated with Southern Baptism. I hope someone will make these changes. Lepanto (talk) 23:59, 8 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I have taken it upon myself to police this article with regard to Rubio's religion. I want to re-iterate that every indication from Rubio is that he considers himself Catholic. There is only one source that suggests otherwise (and I cited to it in the article, thus I'm not seeking to hide the controversy). In addition, Rubio's staff re-iterated today that he is Catholic. I will endeavor to make sure the Wikipedia continues to recognize Rubio's consistent self-identification as Catholic in the absence of any clear and verifiable evidence to the contrary. Lepanto (talk) 22:39, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rubio attends the non-denominational Christ Fellowship church. It's clearly WP:UNDUE to present one newspaper blog's claim that this church's beliefs are incompatible with Catholicism. Rd232 ^talk 11:14, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. The best path is to go by his own self-identification. Besides that reference to the Evangelical church can be traced back to only one news report and there is no evidence that he attends that church to the exclusion of the Catholic Church. Hopefully the self-appointed inquisitors will stop constantly trying to edit Rubio's profile to say he's not Catholic.24.193.115.37 (talk) 15:03, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why it's wrong to point out that for the last six years Mr. Rubio has attended Christ Fellowship Church, West Kendall, Fla. http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/11/01/what-is-marco-rubios-religion/ This is fact, not commentary. Let people know the facts and draw their own conclusions. Otherwise, shame on Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.48.82.228 (talk) 22:53, 12 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Catholics try to hold on to anyone who doesn't condemn or damn them publicly. This guy is doing this to appeal to both sides of the Hispanic vote, the old Catholics and the new Evangelicals. It's all about public image. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.72.161.113 (talk) 23:01, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where does Senator Rubio stand on Govenor Scott's decision to sabotage the high speed rail system by refusing, without basis, the federal grant to Florida for financing most of the project.

One, this is not a forum. Two, your question is completely loaded. Three, your motivation seems to be to make the senator look bad. It is people with this mentality that cause wikipedia to be accused of having a liberal bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.206.170.21 (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the wording in this blp slightly from the Post's revelation to its argument, per wp:NPOV. Also, in view of a broader definition of exile, l removed this biography's implication that Wikipedia believes it false to term Rubio's parents exiles--which in my opinion should be at least be toned down to something like "...so and so believes Rubio's parents cannot be considered exiles" if it is to be reinstated.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:43, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with both changes, but for the moment I have reverted the one I consider particularly objectionable. Rubio has been perfectly clear in his own use of the word exile what that word means in his own view: his parents were forced out by Castro in 1959. In any event, we can use the word itself because it is the word Rubio uses, and I don't think we should get into WP:OR about its meaning in some sort of "broader sense". As for WashPo "revelations" -- I don't see the problem here either: the WashPo revealed what had not been widely known before, that Rubio's parents had arrived in the US in 1956, not 1959. That's not an "argument". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:49, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is of course a blp.

Whether they left Cuba before or after Mr. Castro’s takeover, he said, the point was that they felt they could not return. “That is an undisputed fact and to suggest otherwise is outrageous,” he said. Sen. Rubio’s argument, essentially, is that his parents are still “exiles,” as opposed to non-political “immigrants,” because after Mr. Castro took over they felt they could not move back to Cuba.---PALM BEACH POST

Please provide RSes before reinsertion of this controversial assertion by the Washington Post.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:53, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What a puzzling statement. If you have concerns about whether the Washington Post itself meets WP:RS, then I suggest a visit to WP:RSN. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:54, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

<sighs> Pls re-read my initial comment above. The assertion can be inserted in the encyclopedia in the form "according to the Washington Post," followed by "Rubio agues" or some such; it simply is inappropriate for Wikipedia to endorse an allegation deemed controversial per a substantial portion of reliable sources giving the matter coverage.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To the extent that the WaPo article presents opinions, WP:BLP essentially requires that they be so identified. Cheers. Collect (talk) 20:31, 29 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Latest wrinkle

Politico: "Rubio had often suggested in interviews and on his official Senate website that his parents fled the Castro regime. The Post said Rubio had “embellished” his family history to ingratiate himself with the politically powerful exile community in Florida, an accusation Rubio has forcefully denied. ¶ The senator has conceded he may have gotten some dates wrong, but he has continued to insist he’s the “son of Cuban exiles” because his parents never could return to their native country after 1961, when they realized their country had taken a turn for the worse under Castro. However, new discrepancies in Rubio’s story surfaced this week based on his parents’ 1956 immigration application, which shows they never intended to return to Cuba. ¶ “Permanently,” Rubio’s father answered when asked how long they intended to stay in the U.S. ¶ Yet inside Little Havana cafes and on Cuban exile radio stations, people are standing by Rubio. So are members of the Cuban-American delegation on Capitol Hill."

--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 18:51, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting -- though I'm not sure our article here needs to cover every wrinkle. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:55, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know what others think, but I don't believe this warrants a separate section in the article.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I originally wrote it in the "Early life" section because it has to do with his family background. I think that frame is more relevant than the fact that there have been recent newspaper stories about it in the course of recent political campaigns. -- Nomoskedasticity (talk) 07:56, 2 November 2011 (UTC).[reply]

It is a notable controversy within Rubio's current career, per the RSes. If it is not notable enough to be covered there, I dare say it is not notable enough to cover in his blp at all. (Eg - and not to argue wp:OTHERSTUFF but - apparently Aqua Buddha is not considered a notable part of Sen. Paul's early life, either. In fact, it doesn't even get a mention in his campaign section--although, IMO, if it were to be included anywhere, it would be there, per the incident's becoming notable within that context. Also, sexual assault allegations wrt Herman Cain are not in his restaurant assoc. section but in his pres. campaign section....And apparently a blp is a higher hurdle for such details than even a separate article. Barack Obama and Illinois Senate career of Barack Obama make no mention of Ayers or Wright, albeit articles exist for each um quote controversy end quote.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 15:49, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would put the material in the 2010 election section without a separate header. I don't care about other articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:16, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Its relevance goes beyond the most recent election, though. I agree it doesn't need a separate header, but it isn't clear to me where it goes if not in "early life". Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The campaign is a better place for it than Early life. The relevance is clearly to him supposedly using the story as a way of getting votes. Putting it in Early life makes it sounds like someone who just misremembers his own history, which isn't even close to the way it's being represented in the media, or even as responded to by him. Its endurance as a story beyond the campaign doesn't mean it can't go in that section.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay -- good enough for me. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:00, 2 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seems maybe a bit redundant--? Speculation is speculation. Rmv'd compound adjectival, making it just "speculation."--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:13, 1 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This edit DIFF removed sourcing for the blp subject's present status as a praticing Catholic/as an attendee at the Baptist church, substituting wording which misleadingly references the subject as having been Catholic and having attended in the past the Baptist Church. Some of the deleted sourcing has been restored, with the pertinent pgrf reworded DIFF to correct the inaccuracy.--Hodgdon's secret garden (talk) 20:50, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This one? http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/legislature/article1075692.ece

Why is this white washed? 76.121.23.59 (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Note There are multiple claims in the article that are not backed up by ANY sources, much less reliable ones. I have tagged the article as its lacks sources, and has issues concerning references. Where the info in not controversial I have simply tagged the passage, instead of removing the content. Thanks. Ism schism (talk) 16:49, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An IP has now thrice attempted to alter the article in ways that are non-neutral. First, they removed an image from the article with no explanation. Second, they removed an assertion that was fact-tagged only last month (this particular change doesn't bother me that much, but it's unexplained). Finally, they changed some language about Rubio's amendment. The pre-existing version said:

Rubio's amendment, co-sponsored by Joe Manchin (D - WV), to allow employers to restrict health coverage for contraception based on religious or moral grounds did not pass the Senate.

The IP's version said:

Rubio's amendment, co-sponsored by Joe Manchin (D - WV), to allow employers exemptions from Obamacare's birth control mandate for religious or moral reasons, failed to pass the Senate.

Just the use of the term Obamacare should be enough to reject the change, but the pre-existing language also more faithfully tracks the cited source.

I've now reverted 3x and warned the IP about edit-warring (the IP has been blocked for edit-warring recently).--Bbb23 (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Collect sez that the talk page previously discussed and rejected inclusion of the fact that Rubio not only attended a Mormon church but was also baptized into that church (source). I see no such discussion on the talk page. Never mind -- even assuming Collect's edit summary is false, we can form consensus in the usual way. (Even so, given that it's false the reversion should not have been conducted on that basis.) Nomoskedasticity (talk) 12:45, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Try [1] where you participated. The stuff about Rubio really being a Mormon was deemed by others to not belong in the BLP. Your addition has been out for nearly three months (enough that I rather assumed that you agreed to it per your edit summary approving the edits I made) - if you wish to add it in, get a WP:CONSENSUS first, please. [2] was 25 Feb. Not added since. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean BLPN, then say BLPN. You'll note that I retracted my favorable comment about your edit. I propose to restore the six words that I added earlier and hope to find that others participating here support doing so. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:23, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I surmise otherwise - it is trivia of the first water, making a big claim about a child being baptized into the LDS church while his family attended that church for a few years. It, in fact, says absolutely nothing about his religious beliefs or practices at all. Cheers - and remember this is still a WP:BLP with specific rules about categorising people by religious or sexual beliefs. Collect (talk) 13:43, 19 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know who is going through all the political pages on wikipedia and using this term to attack the President everywhere they can, but I'm getting sick of it. I can barely find any useable information on these pages anymore because I have to read a bunch rubbish about "the Obama White House did this" or "the Obama White House did that" (and it's always based on opinion and the articles cited say nothing of the sort). If you don't know WHO specifically acted to do whatever it was you're claiming was done, you simply don't know what you're talking about and should refrain from editing wikipedia. Thank you. 98.203.17.49 (talk) 22:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Rubio has denied the Washington Post story on his parents exile, so the Washington Post Story should not be reported as fact.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)A recent edit (repeated three times, no less), fails to achieve NPOV by presenting only Rubio's perspective ("Rubio corrected previous statements"), without presenting the Washington Post assertion that Rubio subsequently denied ("embellishments"). The version Thomas Paine is pushing is not even sensible -- the passage as currently written is confusing. I intend to revert it, but it will apparently need discussion here yet again. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:31, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The previous version did not present it as fact -- it presented the WP claim and attributed the claim to the WP. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 17:33, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Washington Post claim of 'embellishments' should not be written as fact, since it was rejected as false. It should not be titled as a controversy, or arranged in the layout as a political attack on Rubio. Rubio corrected the statements and the dates which he did not recall, that is not an "embelleshment." The Washington Post should not be featured in the article, the Washington Post is not the elected Senator from Florida, Rubio is. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a newpaper.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 17:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)"[reply]

Your own views on what constitutes an embellishment are not relevant. You clearly want to present Rubio from Rubio's point of view only. Doing so is incompatible with NPOV. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:00, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rubio's statements make it clear that the Washington Post story is false, the term "embellishment" is not factual, but an unsupported Washington Post opinion. Wikipedia is not a newpaper and is not obligated to document the opinions of newpapers.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 18:07, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rubio's statements make it clear that he believes -- or at least wants others to believe -- that the story is false. Nothing more. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 18:12, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The edit now correctly informs that Rubio 'corrected statements that implied' that his parents left Cuba to flee Castro and that they could not return there, facts which somehow were left out of the previous version, while the previous version gave high feature to the Washington Post attack on Rubio. Featuring Washington Post embellishment assertion based attack as factual is not a neutral point of view. The assertion of embellishment by the Washington Post is nothing more than an assertion. So, the issue is why is assertion of embellishment notable and what about such assertion should be stated if anything? The beliefs of assertions of the Washington Post or other newspapers are not particularly relevant, notable, or factual in this case. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 18:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Nomosk that the Post material should not have been removed and replaced by Rubio's statements unless there is a consensus for doing so. Nomosk is also correct that the version before Thomas changed it did not present the Washington Post article as fact but clearly attributed it to the Post. And, Thomas, you are being disruptive by insisting on leaving the material in without first having a discussion.

As an aside, I am changing back the lead to the way it was as it's clearer. "Part of the process" is indeed a quote from the article, but (1) we are not quoting the article and (2) Romney's statement has to be viewed in context. The headline and the body of the Daily News article make it clear that Romney is vetting Rubio as a possible VP running mate. The reader will only be mystified by the nebulous phrase "part of the process".

Bottom line: I am putting the article back the way it was. Stay here and discuss changes related to the exile controversy and the vetting.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:44, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. User Bbb23 should not delete citations and statements which inform that Rubio corrected statements that implied that his parents left Cuba to flee Castro and that they could not return there, facts which somehow were left out and now Bbb23 removed them without discussion. That seems to be highly disruptive, especially in the midst of a discussion. It restores a version which gives high feature to the Washington Post attack on Rubio which is not a neutral point of view. The assertion of embellishment is hardly factual and deletions of Rubio's corrections makes it even more a violation of the wiki policy on neutrality.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 18:56, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, before your changes, the article was nicely balanced. It reported on the Post's article with attribution, and it reported Rubio's denials/clarifications/whatever. You tilted it 180 degrees so that the challenges to Rubio were eliminated with extensive commentary on Rubio's statements. How can that be neutral? The Post is a reliable source. Your opinion that it was an attack piece is nothing more than your opinion.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:14, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the specific denials by Rubio were not included and are still not included in the article, only the Washington Post featured political attack of alleged imbellishments. Rubio denied the embellishments assertion by the Washington Post as false, yet the word deny doesn't even appear in your version of the article, its Rubio's view that it is false. Your version of the article fails to achieve a neutral point of view since it specifically includes the Washington Post embellisment claim without including Rubio's specific rejection of the claim which is documented by sources. Rubio corrected previous statements that implied his parents were forced to leave Cuba in 1959, after Fidel Castro came to power, since Rubio could not recall the exact dates which showed they had left Cuba in 1956 during the dictatorship of Fulgencio Batista to seek economic opportunity in the United States, but then were unable to return to Cuba once Fidel Casto came to power.[3][4]. The Washington Post claim of 'embellishments' should not be written as fact, it is assertion, and it was rejected as false. Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:15, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's just plain silly. Rubio's response is included in the current version (and it's not mine) of the article. In fact, in your version (and it is yours), you included the same stuff as is in the current version but added to it AND removed the Post article completely.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:28, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rubios specific denial of the the Washington Post claim of embellishments in not included in your version. You still haven't made the case why the Washington Post assertion should even be included anyway since it is not a fact. Its not really necesssary to include the names of newpapers and their opinions in a biography article. But if it is included, Rubio's specific denial of it should be included as well, since it is documented in the sources. If the Washington Post assertion is not included, only Rubio's correction of the statement should be included. Its not really necessary for the Washington Post assertion of embellishments to be included since Rubio explained his remarks. The selected response from Rubio in the article does not address his denial of the embellishments claim. The embellishment claim shouldn't have its own heading as your version does, that is WP:Undue weight.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 22:40, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I won't respond any more to your circular repetitions. However, your comment about a separate subsection header has some merit, although it's not easy to figure out where to put it. I don't like it in Personal life. I didn't like it where you put it. The article has some structural limitations at the moment as to where to put certain kinds of material. For example, the vetting business shouldn't be in the lead without being in the body, but where to put it in the body? Anyway, I'm open to suggestions on these issues from you and from anyone else following our little tete-a-tete.--Bbb23 (talk) 22:48, 25 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It could be placed when it occurred, under his Senate service. Personal life and marriage can go under Early life, education, and family.Thomas Paine1776 (talk) 00:25, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I understand you're focusing on when, but it's not really part of his senate service. Just because it occurred while he's a senator doesn't mean it belongs in a section entitled U.S. Senate. My guess is we'd have to create a new section called "Other activities" or something innocuous like that. Then we could put the vetting thing in there as well as the exiles thing (without giving it its own subsection). The other option is to change the structure to be time frames without other labels, or perhaps time frames with more expansive labels, like "2011-present - U.S. Senate and other activities" (or "other events"?). I'm just kind of thinking out loud as I'm not crazy about any of these options.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC, the prior discussions had been that the iterated insertions that "Rubio was a Mormon" or the like was UNDUE, and that the entire religion section had been given excessive weight in the past. I note tht he was just labeled a former Mormon, which I regard as being aking to all the huge discussions already held. Cheers. Collect (talk) 09:41, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

User:TeeTylerToe has added the following section to the article, all cited to the show:

On June 25th, 2012 Marco Rubio appeared in an interview with Jon Stewart on The Daily Show. In this interview Marco Rubio stated that senate republicans position using the filibuster 120-140 times per session was a direct response to the Senate majority leadership preventing republican amendments from being placed on active legislation. He said that "I'm not in it so both sides can get something out of it", and the contradictory quotes "We can't grow the budget with cuts" and "Clinton grew the economy coming together with republicans to cut spending". He stated that the republicans would force a 60 vote majority for anything to pass in the senate unless it didn't have something the republicans thought was a "bad idea", and he said that the filibuster is "the only tool the minority has in this system to protect itself and to try to force votes on the amendments". Talking about his frustration with the stalemate in congress caused by the republican filibusters, he complained about how he couldn't believe that in the two years he'd been there the senate hadn't addressed anything, that "the senate hasn't even passed a budget in 4-3.5 years", but he denied that the republican filibuster was the problem, or that his stated refusal of any compromise with democrats could be to blame.

He has been reverted twice, once by Collect and once by me, but that hasn't stopped him. I've left a 3RR warning on his Talk page and, hopefully, he will come here to discuss the material per WP:BRD. After I finish writing this, I will revert the material once more.

There are several problems with the addition. It is too much. It doesn't need its own section (although adding material to this article is problematic as the structure limits what you can do). It doesn't need this many quotes. It's also hard to know which quotes should be used - that requires some judgment. The phrase "contradictory quotes" is inappropriate edit commentary. It is poorly worded with contractions, poor capitalization, improper formatting, and other stylistic problems.

I don't have a problem including some of the material, but the best way to do that, in my view, would be to weave it into the article in spots where Rubio's comments are apposite. Otherwise, we just become a platform to articulate Rubio's views on a wide list of issues.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:16, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Politicians do not have one position over the course of their lives. What Abraham Lincoln may have said in a state of the union a year before the civil war may be different from what he stated in a state of the union a year after the civil war. It is common to separate sections for different appearances of a politician.

It needs this many quotes to prevent it from being seen as biased. Also to prevent misinterpretations. A politician could say something that could be interpreted many ways. By using more quotes than in an article about, for instance, the color blue, it preserves the context and wording of what the politician said.

The phrase "contradictory quotes" is appropriate because it's not commentary. If in the same interview he said "I am a member of the democratic party, and not the republican party", then in the same interview said "I am a member of the republican party, and not the democratic party" it would be appropriate to point out this contradiction.

Any article with one miscapitalized letter should be totally blanked. This is good wiki policy, additionally it is the only way to be sure. I am not a veteran editor, but capitalization does not strike me as something that needs to be discussed in a talk page.

"Otherwise, we just become a platform to articulate Rubio's views on a wide list of issues." This is troubling. While I agree that, for instance, whether Rubio is pro boxer, or whether he is pro brief is not important, he is a sitting US senator. His views on the filibuster, and whether or not spending cuts effect the deficit do seem like they belong in an article on him, particularly when those are both very important issues.

finally, revert wars start with the first revert. If only 1% of your reverts start revert wars, and you only revert 10 things, you only have a 10% chance of starting a revert war, but if you revert whole sections for reasons like capitalizations, or because you think there were too many quotes, you are going to start a lot of edit wars, and more than all the edit wars you start, you are going to put to the torch the careful contributions of many many editors.

It is very insulting to treat other editors like vandals who deface articles. While it seems to have been adopted by many editors, burning the village to save the village is not wiki policy, and it is a very very poor interpretation of the "be bold" concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TeeTylerToe (talk • contribs) 17:56, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You weren't treated like a vandal. Your edits were undone with explanations. The formatting, MOS issues can be fixed (and there were a lot of them, btw), but if that had been the only problem, I wouldn't have removed the material. Pointing out that quotes are "contradictory" is commentary, no matter how obvious you think it is - it's your interpretation. The reader can decide whether his quotes contradict each other. The broader and more important substantive questions I raised have still not been addressed. We'll need to wait for other editors to contribute.--Bbb23 (talk) 18:08, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The undo button was created to streamline the process of reverting vandalism. It is an easy and powerful tool. It is a very tempting tool. It is very easy to yield to the temptation of it. It is also a very aggressive tool. A tool that causes a lot of conflict. Editors use it hastily because a section of an article on their watchlist doesn't meet that personal editor's standard for referencing, or because it has too many quotes, or it has too few quotes, or it's too long, or it's too short, or it has too much content, or it has too little content.

they use it because it's easy. They liked THEIR article THEIR way, and some editor had the temerity to edit THEIR article and their edit has poor capitalization, or poor style! HOW DARE THEY! So these editors yield to the temptation of undo, and they start edit wars for things that could easily be fixed with a single google if it's a reference, or one pass through with a spellchecker bot. Such hostile editing is explicitly against wiki policy, but the undo button is so easy, and it's right there, and many editors feel like it's the correct interpretation of "be bold".

It's not.

None of what you say is correct - it's just a rant. The undo button is not for reverting vandalism, it is for undoing another's edit for many, many different reasons. Just address the issues and stop going off on irrelevant tangents.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Not according to Wikipedia:Alternatives to reversion. You want a discussion that nobody takes part in. I'm willing to come to a consensus on the content, but there doesn't seem to be any mechanism to do that.TeeTylerToe (talk) 02:47, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That's an essay and doesn't even say what you say it says. The "mechanism" for reaching a consensus on content IS what we're doing, although you're not making it easy - discussing it on the Talk page. That should always be the first step after WP:BRD. Even the essay says that.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Wikipedia, based on MediaWiki software, allows for editors to revert the edits of themselves or other editors. This feature was installed to enable quick changes of mistakes." That's not an ambiguous statement. And you and collect have barely put any effort into discussing the section, what you have put a great deal of effort into is organizing a lynch mob for me over false accusations. I may be the barbarian clumsily trying to add content to the article, but you're putting all your energy into being the conspirator, trying to steer palace intrigue so that you win imaginary power and influence.TeeTylerToe (talk) 15:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

TTT, that sort of post is not appropriate for this talk page. At some point you will likely have to accept that you have not convinced others of the merits of your desired edit. If you then need to vent your frustration, please find a different location for it. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 15:57, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Were that post to be viewed in a vacuum, perhaps you would be right. In context, however, I did not make some random post randomly insulting some random editor. If Bbb23's responses were about, for instance, the change I made to pointing out the contradiction in Rubio's remarks, or the other changes I'd made, I would be discussing the content of the article. Instead Bbb23's responses are hostile attacks, going hand in hand with the conflict he's creating. I would rather not be squabbling, defending myself, or being falsely accused by multiple editors. I obviously would like to be finding some compromise to add information about Rubio's interview to this article. But what I get are attacks. Now you are coming here and saying that I am the sole aggressor. I am not even the initiator. If your goal was to throw fuel on the conflict, and create more divisions, job well done.TeeTylerToe (talk) 16:20, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also note that Wikipedia editors are unlikely to view the interview as "notable" unless and until other reliable sources report thereon. Collect (talk) 18:41, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Although The Daily Show itself is a reliable source, Rubio's comments are generally not noteworthy unless viewed in some context (see my note above) or another source picks up on them and carries them forward, thereby also giving them some context. Otherwise, they are just a bunch of sound bites, which politicians do all day long and we don't report each sound bite.--Bbb23 (talk) 19:08, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be slightly more clear, I think the word we should be using is 'due', not 'notable'. New additions to an article/topic don't need their own standalone notability (in the Wikipedia sense), but they do need to be WP:DUE. While Jon Stewart has a habit of making great political points on his shows, the long quote you open with at the top simply sounds like you've inferred a lot from it. You also seem to be quoting directly from the source here, which means you must source analyis of the Daily Show interview to some other media outlet. The problem is that while the Daily Show often is a great secondary source, you can't put down your own conclusions based on what they said. It must be something the Daily Show said directly. For example, did the Daily Show say those two terms are contradictory, or did they just play them side by side? -- Avanu (talk) 17:56, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't a daily show segment. Stewart was interviewing Rubio. Rubio dismissed addressing the deficit with cuts saying that you can't cut your way out of the deficit, and you can only address the deficit by "growing the economy", but later when stewart asked when the economy grew, and what were the circumstances of that growth, rubio responded that it was Clinton joining republicans in cutting spending. That said I later edited that part out replacing it with (paraphrasing) "Rubio's initial position was that you can't cut your way out of the deficit, but later conceded that the spending cuts of the 90s contributed to revenue, to a decrease in the deficit, and increased growth.TeeTylerToe (talk) 18:18, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Without a secondary reliable source reporting on the interview, the interview does not belong in this article. And your SYNTH making comments aboiut the interview absolutely violates WP:BLP. Cheers. Collect (talk) 00:01, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I linked to two news outlets reporting on the interview. Even if you ignored the changes I made to the text, I've mentioned it here in the talk discussion and other places. Reading that would have taken time away from you placing edit war tags on my talk page though, and forced you to actually try to discuss the changes instead of escalate the conflict. Cheers.TeeTylerToe (talk) 07:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Um -- I think it is clear that you were absolutely engaged in edit war, that my polite warning was one of three relating thereto, that making 5 reverts in under 24 hours is past the 3RR bright-line rule, and that you seem quite unwilling to recognize that where zero other editors back your edit that you possibly might reconsider your own infallibility. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't even make 4 reverts, which is why Bbb23's accusations were false. Of the three, one was by Bbb23 who trumped up the accusations, another was by DBigXray parroting Bbb23's false accusations, and the third was you who doesn't know anything about what's happening. And for the hat trick even your claim that I'm the only one to support the edit is wrong. Wrong on all counts, like Bbb23, and DBigXray. I'm sure you're a great editor with the 0 for 3 track record you have. Cheers!TeeTylerToe (talk) 13:26, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

[5] 16:41 4 July [6] 16:48 [7] 19:32 [8] 19:39

Four reverts in inder 3 hours. And you insist you did not edit war? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let's all drop the edit war issue. The admin closed it as stale but warned TTT. There's no reason to rehash the revert issue and whether it was indeed a technical violation of 3RR, only constituted edit-warring without a technical breach, or neither. Let's please move on. TTT, could you please post here the links you mentioned above ("two news outlets reporting on the interview"). I'm sorry, but I don't recall that, and I'd like to see them. Thanks.--Bbb23 (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The way you're dropping whether or not the breach was technical, and the way you're dropping your interpretation of the result of your accusation? Remember the fourth revert you accused me of that turned out to be me adding two references per the talk page discussion? The fourth edit actually was me adding two references. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Marco_Rubio&diff=500694753&oldid=500694616TeeTylerToe (talk) 16:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The edits I did to the personal section were, first, to address the limited information presented regarding Ms Dousdebes-Rubio (M Rubio's spouse) -- that her heritage is also hispanic, that she had had various employment before becoming a stay at home mother, and that the Senator's acquaintance with Ms Dousdebes predated the single job originally indicated for her (cheerleader). These accomplish a more balanced view of his spouse than was present before.

Second, the original presentation of the "controversy" over the history of the Senator's parents immigration failed to indicate (a) that the Sentaor's office responded formally to the articles, (b) that the Senator's web pages were modified in response, and (c) the WP article raising the questions actually supported the timeline provided by the Senator's office, through its examination of the relevant passport entries. Once again, adding these referenced facts accomplish a more balanced view than was present before.

I have no personal or professional relationship with the Senator or his office, and have no partisan interest in this person or any of his endeavors. I have only edited from the desire for the article to be balanced and accurate. To delete the edits without discussion here, and with only the nonsensical "rv as way over-the-top" insults the process of wikipedia writing and editing. Find specific fault with what is written, with the same care in referencing your sources, or let the scholarly revision effort stand. Prof D.

I'm probably not going to wade into the heart of this dispute, but you are wrong about the last part, and perhaps you should learn more about Wikipedia before attempting to lecture us on insults to the process. For any article, the onus is on the editor who wishes to change it from the status quo. Thus, if you are reverted, the correct course is usually to let the reversion of your edits stand, and go to the talk page to discuss the matter. This article is a biography of a living person, so that becomes even more important, unless of course the thrust of your edit is to remove unsourced information, which is not the case here. So I am going to revert you again, and I hope this time you will accept that and allow this discussion to take its course before engaging further on the main page. -Rrius (talk) 08:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]