Sir Sputnik (talk | contribs) →Albania (again): fix comment |
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::My post above is based on the current consensus/guideline for notability i.e. the wording at NSPORT and current FPL list. I would like to see the draft alternative to this system ([[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability of footballers]]) taken forward in order that some of these ongoing issues can be addressed, and may try and post a reminder for input at Footy soon. However, we have to go with the existing system for the present. The vast majority of entries on the list do not have sourcing to show the league is "fully professional", and it is unreasonable to decide that Albania should apparently have to reach more stringent criteria than other list entries. I don't believe this is an issue of [[WP:Otherstuffexists]] because we are talking of entries on the same list, and a consensus that has built up over some time. I won't remove the tag you have added, but if it is deemed acceptable to add it for Albania, it could be added to most entries on the list, or more likely a generic tag would be added. However, better than this, we can try and move forward with the alternative page for footballer notability. [[User:Eldumpo|Eldumpo]] ([[User talk:Eldumpo|talk]]) 09:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC) |
::My post above is based on the current consensus/guideline for notability i.e. the wording at NSPORT and current FPL list. I would like to see the draft alternative to this system ([[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability of footballers]]) taken forward in order that some of these ongoing issues can be addressed, and may try and post a reminder for input at Footy soon. However, we have to go with the existing system for the present. The vast majority of entries on the list do not have sourcing to show the league is "fully professional", and it is unreasonable to decide that Albania should apparently have to reach more stringent criteria than other list entries. I don't believe this is an issue of [[WP:Otherstuffexists]] because we are talking of entries on the same list, and a consensus that has built up over some time. I won't remove the tag you have added, but if it is deemed acceptable to add it for Albania, it could be added to most entries on the list, or more likely a generic tag would be added. However, better than this, we can try and move forward with the alternative page for footballer notability. [[User:Eldumpo|Eldumpo]] ([[User talk:Eldumpo|talk]]) 09:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC) |
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:::Like WFC, I couldn't disagree more that a source that simply refers to a league as professional is sufficient to include that league in the fully pro list, simply because it completely removes the distinction between professional and fully professional. If professional were sufficient for inclusion, then leagues that per consensus are not, Conference National or Regionalliga for example, could be included as there is a degree of professionalism in those leagues, and they can be sourced as professional. Ultimately what it comes back to is Eldumpo's earlier point about the lack of a clear definition of fully pro. Therefore, I propose the following definition: A league is fully professional if all players in that league are paid to play football, and are paid well enough to not require a secondary source of income (i.e. a day job). [[User:Sir Sputnik|Sir Sputnik]] ([[User talk:Sir Sputnik|talk]]) 23:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC) |
:::Like WFC, I couldn't disagree more that a source that simply refers to a league as professional is sufficient to include that league in the fully pro list, simply because it completely removes the distinction between professional and fully professional. If professional were sufficient for inclusion, then leagues that per consensus are not, Conference National or Regionalliga for example, could be included as there is a degree of professionalism in those leagues, and they can be sourced as professional. Ultimately what it comes back to is Eldumpo's earlier point about the lack of a clear definition of fully pro. Therefore, I propose the following definition: A league is fully professional if all players in that league are paid to play football, and are paid well enough to not require a secondary source of income (i.e. a day job). [[User:Sir Sputnik|Sir Sputnik]] ([[User talk:Sir Sputnik|talk]]) 23:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC) |
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::::Agree with WFC that any player meeting the GNG, regardless of league, is notable. Also agree with Sir Sputnik's definiton of "fully-professional". [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 00:00, 22 June 2011 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 00:00, 22 June 2011
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Russian First and Second Division
The source listed for the Russian First and Second Divisions seems to state that amateur teams can play in these leagues. Can someone who speaks Russian please confirm this or explain why the source confirms the Fully pro status of these leagues? I just wanted to make sure it wasn't a translation error before I remove them. Thanks. Sir Sputnik (talk) 17:09, 5 April 2011 (UTC)
How do you distinguish between "fully professional" and not?
I'm watching the AfD for Shawn Tellus. Right now, it seems to be hinging on whether or not the Maltese Premier League is a professional league or not. I only came across the article during huggling because someone removed templates inappropriately, as football is not my thing. But now I'm curious--what is the distinction between a fully professional league and some lower level? Are there some guidelines? Qwyrxian (talk) 13:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- A fully professional league is one where all players at all clubs in the league are fully professional - i.e. they train five days a week and do not have other day jobs. There are some leagues where there is a mixture (for instance the Conference National), so players in these leagues do not meet the criteria. Tellus fails the guideline as the Maltese League is not fully professional (this source is given overleaf). Number 57 13:27, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
New Providence Football League
Question for the experts: is New Providence Football League a fully professional league? My guess is no, given that it is labeled as the "highest form of football (soccer) on the island of New Providence", an island of only 330,000 people; it seems unlikely to me that a population of that size could actually support a fully professional league. I'm not worried about the league article itself, or even the articles on the teams (I'm willing to presume that there must be at least local coverage of the teams/league), but I am wondering whether merely playing in this league automatically confers a presumption of notability sufficient to pass WP:ATHLETE (specifically, an Article for Creation submission: Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Bennett Coughlin). Thanks for your help. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:33, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't have a source, but frankly if a sub-national league in the Bahamas is fully professional I will eat my sofa. BTW, as that article is a BLP with no sources whatsoever, is it eligible to be created anyway......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:45, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Albania?
Albania is not on neither the "professional" or the "non-professional" lists of leagues. What do we do with footballers whose only claim to fame is appearance in Albania's top level? Timbouctou (talk) 21:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- In the absence of evidence suggesting it is fully professional, I think we have to assume it is not. Hence they would fail WP:ATHLETE. Number 57 21:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- OK. I'm asking because I ran into several Croatian players who played in non-professional lower tiers at home before moving to Albanian top level. I assumed this was alright but then I saw this AfD. Timbouctou (talk) 21:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Albania2/Proposal
Moved discussion here as per suggestion of Sir Sputnik(Permanent link) --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 10:42, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Albania (again)
(my comment copied over from an AfD) - I'm not convinced about the links provided for the Albanian Superliga - as far as I can tell (i.e. with the help of Google Translate!), the two news items simply refer to a 'professional league' without confirming whether it's truly fully professional or if there are still semi-pro teams there, and the league statute document seems to make no reference to players' professional status whatsoever. Could someone who can actually speak Albanian point us to where exactly the league's professional status is confirmed? —BETTIA— talk 09:21, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think this kind of verification is needed for all none English sources on this list. For example, the source for the Russian First and Second Division appear to lay out the condition under which an amateur team may compete in these competitions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 16:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
The reality is that without an agreed definition of "fully professional" it does not seem reasonable to suggest that leagues should not appear on the pro list because they lack that wording. A general consensus has arisen via the populating and editing of this list that a reference to professional is reasonable, and indeed I'm not aware which entries on the list do have sources confirming the "fully professional" nature of the league. I have reverted the recent change whereby Albania was removed from the list, but I admit I have not waded through the first of the links, and agree that when docs like this are posted there should be reference to a page number where the professional status is discussed/mentioned.Eldumpo (talk) 22:19, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I cannot disagree in strong enough terms with the suggestion that we should stretch the letter of sourcing on a BLP-related matter. It may well be that a fair number of players in the Albanian league meet the GNG, and if so, playing in Albania should not be a barrier to such players having articles. But that's very different to assuming that every single one of them should have a full-blown biography. —WFC— 23:20, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- My post above is based on the current consensus/guideline for notability i.e. the wording at NSPORT and current FPL list. I would like to see the draft alternative to this system (Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability of footballers) taken forward in order that some of these ongoing issues can be addressed, and may try and post a reminder for input at Footy soon. However, we have to go with the existing system for the present. The vast majority of entries on the list do not have sourcing to show the league is "fully professional", and it is unreasonable to decide that Albania should apparently have to reach more stringent criteria than other list entries. I don't believe this is an issue of WP:Otherstuffexists because we are talking of entries on the same list, and a consensus that has built up over some time. I won't remove the tag you have added, but if it is deemed acceptable to add it for Albania, it could be added to most entries on the list, or more likely a generic tag would be added. However, better than this, we can try and move forward with the alternative page for footballer notability. Eldumpo (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Like WFC, I couldn't disagree more that a source that simply refers to a league as professional is sufficient to include that league in the fully pro list, simply because it completely removes the distinction between professional and fully professional. If professional were sufficient for inclusion, then leagues that per consensus are not, Conference National or Regionalliga for example, could be included as there is a degree of professionalism in those leagues, and they can be sourced as professional. Ultimately what it comes back to is Eldumpo's earlier point about the lack of a clear definition of fully pro. Therefore, I propose the following definition: A league is fully professional if all players in that league are paid to play football, and are paid well enough to not require a secondary source of income (i.e. a day job). Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:50, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- My post above is based on the current consensus/guideline for notability i.e. the wording at NSPORT and current FPL list. I would like to see the draft alternative to this system (Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Notability of footballers) taken forward in order that some of these ongoing issues can be addressed, and may try and post a reminder for input at Footy soon. However, we have to go with the existing system for the present. The vast majority of entries on the list do not have sourcing to show the league is "fully professional", and it is unreasonable to decide that Albania should apparently have to reach more stringent criteria than other list entries. I don't believe this is an issue of WP:Otherstuffexists because we are talking of entries on the same list, and a consensus that has built up over some time. I won't remove the tag you have added, but if it is deemed acceptable to add it for Albania, it could be added to most entries on the list, or more likely a generic tag would be added. However, better than this, we can try and move forward with the alternative page for footballer notability. Eldumpo (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2011 (UTC)