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One of several sources from the UK Intellectural Property Office which state that "The Beatles" is a registered trade mark of Apple Corps Ltd is at [1] Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As I've been reverted for following what is on this page, which is it then? The statement at the top of this page or [[[2]]] Bevo74 (talk) 05:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would guess this is Y it was reverted as per most recent talk and other previous talks on the subject that seem to have decied on the "The" format. That said you are free to bring up the matter again.Moxy (talk) 06:15, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's definitely 'The'. PL290 is trying to sneak 'the' through the back door, but after literally months of discussing, arguing, and shouting about this, the decision was made. End of.--andreasegde (talk) 06:24, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As Yogi Berra would say - this is deja vu all over again. And I agree, we're not going there again. Tvoz/talk 06:41, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[outdent] But Andreasegde's statement "It's definitely 'The'" is at odds to the statement at the top of this page: "Consensus has been reached to use 'the Beatles' instead of 'The Beatles' in running prose" — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That statement at the top of the page used to be the other way round, ie "Consensus has been reached to use 'The Beatles' instead of 'the Beatles.'" It was altered by PL290 after a discussion involving only me and him (see here). Notice that he never said that he did it, either on the talk page or in the edit summary. Was that discussion enough to overturn what had previously been agreed upon? I think not.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 10:48, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I returned the text above to the way it had been, and where it should stay unless and until there is true consensus for the lower case "the". Consensus can change, but not this way. Tvoz/talk 16:04, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for sorting that. Bevo74 (talk) 17:20, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank whichever God you prefer for that.--andreasegde (talk) 19:10, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

[3] The Beatles' trademark document, which says, "signed by all four members of The Beatles, and dated November 23, 1964, in the City of London. It authorizes "The Beatles" name to be registered and used by the group in the U.S., and is attached and bound along with a title page and sworn statement from the notary public who witnessed the signing. The document reads (in part): "1. We carry on business jointly as entertainers under the group name of 'The Beatles'. " Therefore, the use of 'The' must be used as it is part of a trademark. Definitely the end of.--andreasegde (talk) 15:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm agnostic on this religious battle - perhaps even leaning towards the 'T' - but if the "legal" name is what we "must" use, then its John, Paul, George and Richard. Its not that black and white. --John (User:Jwy/talk) 16:52, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The MOS seems clear enough: it should be 'the'. If the consensus is that, for some reason, the MOS does not apply to this subject, then please can we have that reason recorded in the statement at the top of the page; otherwise, the MOS should prevail. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The MoS is a guide. Talks are underway to have it changed, which is what Wikipedia is all about.--andreasegde (talk) 21:29, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the legal reason on the top of this talk page. Steelbeard1 (talk) 19:46, 19 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The trademark argument is spurious: WP is not involved in trade.—Wrapped in Grey (talk) 04:20, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You should look at the Trademark page. It's very clearly stated.--andreasegde (talk) 04:39, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, I shall look at the MOS which states specifically how to deal with band names, almost all of which will be trademarked. By all means, have the MOS changed but until then, and with no clear consensus here, you are jumping the gun. —Wrapped in Grey (talk) 09:00, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Remember the ABN AMRO debacle? That article's talk page is still much longer than the article itself due to the MoS dispute. ABN AMRO in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS is not only a registered trade mark, it is also the LEGAL NAME of the financial institution. The MoS (censored) insisted on "ABN Amro" as the article's name. Steelbeard1 (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

oh hey, didn't realize that discussion regarding this was happening here as well. I would like to invite all interested parties to take this discussion to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style_(music), as per this WP:Consensus RfC decision which comes to the conclusion: Conflict between guidelines are best resolved through discussion, and the guidelines updated as appropriate.. It seems most of us are unclear as to current consensus of preferred capitalization, and our ultimate goal should be to codify eventual consensus into a clear guidelines, whatever the result may be. Thank you, riffic (talk) 10:41, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good. It was difficult bouncing around three pages. The page for discussion is here: [4]--andreasegde (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Folks, this is becoming a leetle bit silly :). Most Beatles editors are perfectly happy to comply with Wikipedia's Manual of Style on this point. This was shown about four months ago when there was clear acquiescence with this edit in the discussion specifically addressing the question. It was then demonstrated again—a month later—in this edit by User:Rodhullandemu, an admin with keen oversight of Beatles articles, who stated, "Consensus is for lower-case "the", per Talk page" in his edit summary. This page has over a thousand watchers: these and other related edits were accepted without demur. I am a bit busy in real life at the moment, so can't watch this discussion too closely, but having taken this article to Featured status I would prefer to see it comply with the MoS. I hope others will begin to voice their (previously silent) support—after all, complying with Wikepeda guidelines is something editors are generally expected to attempt to do. PL290 (talk) 07:17, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that this article/band is a special case. The statement at the top of the page should be removed and the MoS should be followed. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:01, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

WP:MoS is not policy, WP:CONSENSUS is. There is a consensus (very strongly among those who maintain the MoS page, especially) that MoS should be followed, except where there are exceptions - which is accepts. The Beatles related articles is one of those exceptions, where the case in respect of the band has been argued repeatedly and consensus has followed that the t/The is preferred. A consensus at a guideline does not over-ride the consensus within an article or group of articles, where the specifics have been previously evaluated. I personally think the case made for use of the lower case "t" is sound, but in performing my responsibilities as a sysop I will act to ensure that the subject specific consensus is upheld. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:55, 5 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The statement at the top of this page makes no reference to a discussion at which consensus was reached and (like the arguments presented in recent discussions) is not justified (as advised by the MoS that exceptions should be) in terms of the article sources. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 09:54, 26 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So where are we with consensus? The Mos/music, and MoS discussions seem to have both decided on "the" in running text. This discussion seems more or less balanced (I throw in that the trademark MoS says "Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules" - since that seems to have been a red herring). So what now? Rich Farmbrough, 21:22, 7 December 2010 (UTC).[reply]

It appears to be stalemated. There is no doubt that the consensus at MoS is for the use of the lowercase t, but MoS is still yet a guideline - on these pages the historical consensus is for the capitalised T, per the very many discussions, and while there is some very good case made for the change it has not yet achieved consensus on these pages. Therefore, the status quo remains for the existing consensus for the letter to remain capitalised. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:48, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No one has been able to identify the arguments by which the old consensus deemed this subject to be an exception to the MoS; hence, counter-arguments cannot be made and we are ruled over by the old consensus for evermore. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can safely assume the old consensus to have lapsed. Maybe there was no particluar reason for it (other than for internal consistency) but it was made at a time before the MoS was clear on this issue. The reason given at the top of the page (which was added after the fact) does not justify it: as seen on the "1" album booklet, "Beatles" is trade-marked. Lower-case "the" is used by sources and even on the front page of the Beatles' own web-site. Time to do the right thing, folks. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 06:34, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Surely the original argument was not about style but about the name of the band, as a verifiable fact from reliable sources. Irrespective of what the style guide says, verifiable fact takes precedence over style. For example The Times newspaper always has a capitalised 'The' because that is the official name of the newspaper: style doesn't come into it. The last time this was discussed, with respect to The Beatles, albeit a long time ago, the consensus was that reliable sources favoured the capitalisation of "The". I don't know whether that previous debate was flawed in some way, or whether there are better sources available now, but I think there is more to it than an issue of style. Personally I'd favour sticking with the status quo, which at least has a consensus, rather than either making a change on the dubious grounds of style or indeed reopening the whole debate which is not really that important anyway. Bluewave (talk) 09:59, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But this issue is entirely about style; no one is going to argue that the name of the band is "the Beatles". MoS style says using "the" in running prose; so does MoS (music) and whilst not explicitly excluding it, MoS (music) does not even mention the possibility of exception (on a per band basis). No one is going to argue against a sound reason for the exception, but what is the reason? For example, if there is a table that categorises the list, on the Beatles Project page, of reference books as favoring one style or the other, where is that table? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus has not changed at all. Occasionally, a newbie who does not know better would try to muddy up the waters. But that person would soon be taught a lesson. Steelbeard1 (talk) 11:35, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The waters are muddy because no one can see the evidence. If it exists, let's put the evidence on the table and see if it stands up today as it did then. If it does, great; place a link to this discussion in the statement at the top of the page, and we're done. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:32, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The evidence has been posted as a linked citation twice at the top of this page and the top of this discussion. Again, it's [5] Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:40, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I notice that both "BEATLES" and "THE BEATLES" are trademarked, and that the mark includes stylized text, i.e., all caps. Strictly following the trademark would require using the BEATLES or THE BEATLES in the article (which I'm not suggesting). Besides, MoS:TM states "follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'" and MoS:MUSIC says "the word 'the' should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose." Piriczki (talk) 15:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The UK Intellectural Property office lists eBay as "EBAY" at [6] so ALL CAPS argument does not hold water. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:04, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's also listed as "ebay" [7], not that it has anything to do with this article. I was referring to the stylized text, not the mark text. Piriczki (talk) 16:24, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The above citation shows eBay's logo which is rendered in all lower case letters as well as the word mark rendered as "ebay" in all lower case letters. Again, the prevailing rendering on Wikipedia is "eBay" despite it not being rendered like that in government trade mark databases. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where is it written in Wikipedia policy that our article text is governed by The UK Intellectural Property office? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 16:50, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is an article about a British subject. That's why we use British spellings. Citations can come from global sources, but because this is a British article, the UK Intellectural Property office is the primary source for trade marks. Steelbeard1 (talk) 16:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For spelling, MOS:TIES is our guide. For trademarks, MOS:TM is our guide and as Piriczki pointed out above, it advises “follow standard English text formatting and capitalization rules, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting 'official'”; in other words, WP style overrides trademark style. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 19:28, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But they are still guidelines in which consensus is the overriding factor. Remember the ABN AMRO debacle? The talk page is still longer than the article. Steelbeard1 (talk) 20:01, 26 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus per se does not override guidelines. A given reason may override guidelines, and the consensus may be that a proffered reason is good enough to do so. What is/was the proffered reason in this case? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 08:18, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe that capitalisation is important to trademarks. If "The Beatles" is trademarked, than no one else can use that name, no matter how they capitalise it. Whether or not to capitalise "the" is irrelevant to "The Beatles" being a trademark. If Apple Corps do not capitalise "the Beatles" then they clearly don't care about the trademark style. McLerristarr | Mclay1 11:51, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are right that no one else can use that name which is why the tribute band called "1964... The Tribute" has to avoid any mention of The Beatles, Beatle or Beatles because of legal troubles with Apple Corps. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:13, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fairly sure that the source given in the first comment in this thread shows the trademark status of the Beatles' logos, not their name. McLerristarr | Mclay1 11:55, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, the trade marks, if you bother to read the source, applies to both the marks and the texts of the marks. So the trade marks are for both the words and the logos. Also, read the copyright notice on the bottom of The Beatles' Rock Band video game page at [8]. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Clearly, I did read the source or I wouldn't know what it was about. I assumed that the text underneath the logos was just clarifying what the logos read. If it was saying that that text was trademarked, why did they twice list the same text twice? McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We've established above that MOS:TM trumps logos/trademarks. WP:COMMONSENSE could trump MOS:TM but only if there is a good reason as to why the MoS does not apply (apparently only) for this band. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 14:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, these are guidelines and prevailing consensus, as noted by the three or so links to previous lengthy discussions on this very topic on the top of this section, is that the band be referred to as "The Beatles" which, as the above link to The Beatles' Rockband page clearly states, is a trademark of Apple Corps. Ltd. Steelbeard1 (talk) 17:21, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So,

• The MOS, chosen to reflect best practice and to promote consistency within WP, is clear.
• MOS:MUSIC, ditto, is clear.
• MOS:TM is clear.
• Per WP:CCC, "according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales.
• No objection has been raised that is not invalidated by one or more of the above guidelines and policy.

Proposal For the reasons immediately above, this band's name should not be considered an exception to MOS:MUSIC#Names (definite article). — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:00, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that this is just about style. It is about what is the verifiable name of the band. I don't know the answer to that question but I'm sure it can be answered. A style guide won't tell us the answer though. Bluewave (talk) 22:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

MOS music covers both of these aspects. The proposal is that this band should not be an exception to either aspect. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A Wikipedia style guide can't possibly tell us whether the capitalised 'T' is formally part of a particular band's name, can it? Or, if it does, it would need to provide the necessary citations to verify this. Some proper names have the definite article as part of the name and capitalise the first letter; some don't. For example, The Times newspaper and The Hague (the city in the Netherlands) do so. No amount of style guides can change that. So the question should be whether The Beatles are in this same category as The Times and The Hague. Bluewave (talk) 22:25, 27 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whilst the MOS makes it clear that there can be exceptions to the general rule for capitalization, MOS music makes it clear that band names are not one of them (MOS music also notes that the definite article should not be omitted when, as in this case, it is officially part of the band's name). The Beatles’ own web-site exhibits the general capitalization rule (“the Beatles”) on its front page. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 06:14, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The example given in the official Beatles web site at [9] is inconsistent: >>Fans can also get a special digital "Beatles Box Set" featuring the "Live at the Washington Coliseum, 1964" concert film, a worldwide iTunes exclusive which captures the Beatles' very first US concert. Visit The Beatles iTunes homepage here: http://www.itunes.com/thebeatles<< So it looks as if someone at Apple did not proofread the text. Steelbeard1 (talk) 11:54, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This just means that they probably don't care either way, or that their MOS is different to our MOS. Even if they did care, it wouldn't matter; MOS:TM makes it clear that we do not follow trademark capitalization idiosyncrasies; MOS:MUSIC makes it clear how we handle the definite article in band names. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:18, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The MOS promotes clarity through consistency. “After the Rolling Stones joined The Beatles in the charts, the door was open for acts such as the Animals and the Who” is clearly inconsistent and for no reason. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 12:38, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how your example is not clear. Surely it clearly shows us the correct names for two bands. It's just like saying "after I visit to the City of London, I went on to The Hague and Los Angeles". Or, indeed, "after reading The Times, I also read the Telegraph and the Daily Mail". Bluewave (talk) 13:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It shows the names of four bands: "The Rolling Stones", "The Beatles", "The Animals", and "The Who". Three of them are formatted for running text per MOS:MUSIC (the specific section of the MOS that addresses this subject matter); one is not. The result is inconsistency, inconsistency which will cause the reader to wonder why it is inconsistent. Confusing the reader is rarely considered beneficial in writing. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 13:44, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Surely they are different because those bands use different capitalisation as part of their names. I am sure readers are not plunged into confusion quite so easily as you suggest. How about "as well as the Rolling Stones and The Beatles, there have been bands such as The Hollies, INXS and Tír na nÓg". If the capitalisation is part of a band's name, we should use it correctly, just like we do with The Times, The Hague and Los Angeles. This is not just about style. Bluewave (talk) 14:07, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal most certainly is about style: it as exclusively about adhering to MOS:MUSIC, which is a style guide. MOS:MUSIC tells us specifically and clearly how to format in running text, the name of bands whose name begins with the definite article. This includes all four band names in the previous example; INXS and Tír na nÓg do not begin with the definite article and so are out-of-scope of this proposal. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 15:30, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To further clarify, MOS:MUSIC trumps the general MOS (though in this case, it is not overriding it in any way, merely confirming that band names follow the general rule). If you want to change MOS:MUSIC, please go ahead and do so. I don't care what style is chosen, only that having chosen a style, we follow it. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 15:41, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If I accepted your assertion that this was just a matter of style, I might, as you suggest, seek to change MOS:MUSIC (or, indeed, I might simply go along with whatever it says). However I'm sure it is clear from my contributions to this discussion that I don't accept that this is just an issue of style, so changing the style guide would be a bit pointless. Bluewave (talk) 16:11, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, MOS:MUSIC can be trumped (but not by MOS). Which policy or guideline do think is being flouted by writing “... the Rolling Stones and the Beatles ...”? — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 18:39, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Whichever ever one says that to change an existing consensus, you need to establish a new consensus. Bluewave (talk) 09:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That would be WP:CONSENSUS, the same policy that advises that “"according to consensus" and "violates consensus" are not valid rationales” for rejecting a new proposal. So it seems that the rationale for the proposal (i.e. the bullet points above) is still sound. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 10:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and that paragraph goes on to say "...editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits, and determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed". I respectfully suggest that you need to "determine afresh whether consensus either has or has not changed". Bluewave (talk) 10:39, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's the point of the proposal. If no one can present a valid argument against the bullet points above, it can be concluded that consensus has changed. So far, no one has; let's wait just a little longer before concluding though. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 10:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No-one except Steelbeard and me. Bluewave (talk) 13:23, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are no exceptions—any one may present a valid argument. Remember that the trademark argument was invalidated by MOS:TM, and the “we already have a consensus” argument was invalidated by WP:CCC. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 14:09, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It may be your opinion that both Steelbeard's and my arguments are invalid, but that does not make it so. I'll leave Steelbeard to say whether he accepts your dismissal of his argument or not. For my part, I have evidently failed to make clear my argument against your proposal, so let me state it one more time:

• There is an existing consensus that the band's name is "The Beatles". Consensus can of course change, but only by establishing a new consensus.
• The previous consensus, as I understand it, was based on researching reliable sources and was not arrived at simply based on people's style preferences. The argument was that the band's name is actually "The Beatles" and that an encyclopaedic article needs to recognise that.
• The argument put forward for a change to the status quo is entirely based on considerations of style. However, nowhere in the style guide does it say that style takes priority over reliably sourced fact.
• In other cases where bands have unusual capitalisation, Wikipedia uses the same capitalisation as given in reliable sources and does not try change it for reasons of style (INXS and Tír na nÓg (band) are examples).
• More specifically, in the case of other bands that capitalise the definite article (as determined from reliable sources), Wikipedia follows the practice of these sources (The Hollies and The The are two examples that I found without looking very hard). This does not seem very different from other proper names that include a capitalised definite article (The Times newspaper and The Hague being examples.
• People should not find the unusual capitalisation to be confusing. In fact it provides them with valuable information that this particular band' name uses distinctive capitalisation.
• If anyone wants to establish a new consensus, I believe they need to go back to reliable sources and establish that there is no firm basis for saying that the band's name is "The Beatles". Perhaps the previous consensus was mistaken on this point or perhaps reliable sources have changed.
• Going back and rebuilding the cases for and against, based on reliable sources, is a lot of work for very little, if any, benefit, so I would vote for sticking with the current consensus. Bluewave (talk) 14:45, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

One-to-one comments on each of the above 8 bullet points:

1. The proposal does question that the name of the band is "The Beatles". It recognises that the name of the band is "The Beatles", and thus the applicability of ‘MOS:MUSIC Names (definite article)’ to that name.
2. The current MOS does recognise the band's name: it notes the difference between names such as "The Velvet Underground" (with the definite article) and Black Sabbath (without it) and instructs on how to handle this difference.
3. MOS:MUSIC gives no hint of the possibility of exception to its chosen style preference. A very oddly named band (just "The" for example) might warrant exception according to WP:COMMONSENSE, however "The Beatles" is not at all odd; it follows a standard naming pattern used by countless other bands.
4. These bands are clearly not subject to the "Names (definite article)" section of MOS:MUSIC (which is all this proposal is concerned with).
5. The proposal is that there is no good reason for this band to be an exception to the MOS; it does not propose that there can never be an exception to the MOS (i.e. arguments on whether other bands should or shouldn't be exceptions are out-of-scope of the proposal).
6. "The Beatles" does not exhibit unusual capitalisation; it exhibits the same capitalisation pattern as countless other bands.
7. No one is suggesting that the band's name is not "The Beatles". MOS:MUSIC music tells us to “determine whether the word "the" is part of a band's name” (in this case, yes), and if so, “it must be included” (no one is suggesting that it shouldn't).
8. The old consensus evaluated the (implied) style-guides of RSs. Seeing as our own MOSs didn't cover this particular usage aspect at the time, this made some sort of sense; now that we have a MOS that clearly covers this, it no longer makes sense to look at other style-guides (unless we think that the MOSs need to be changed).

In summary, the old consensus was justified by lack of guideline at that time; the current proposal is justified by the current policies and guidelines. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:07, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, Wrapped in Grey has made a proposal; I have said why I disagree with it; Wrapped in Grey has has disagreed with my disagreement. I don't think we are going to reach a consensus between us. What are other people's views? Bluewave (talk) 10:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is clear that there is no consensus so the status quo should prevail. The band is called "The Beatles." Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:03, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

the or The? (re-stated proposal)

It seems that there is some confusion as to what is being proposed, with some editors believing the statement “the band’s name is The Beatles” to be a counter-argument to the proposal (in fact, the statement is a premise of the proposal), so I’ll try to re-present the argument more clearly.

Premises:

1. The band’s name is The Beatles.
2. The band’s name is not subject to any unusual capitalisation rules. (Were it otherwise, there would be WP:RSs commenting on the fact).
3. The band’s name is used in Wikipedia music articles.
4. MOS:MUSIC is “the Manual of Style, a style guide, for Wikipedia music articles”.
5. MOS:MUSIC#Names (definite article) instructs that, for band names starting with the definite article, “Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word "the" should in general not be capitalized” (and provides for exception, only on a usage basis, not a band basis).

Conclusion:

• When the name The Beatles is used in Wikipedia music articles, the word the should not be capitalized mid sentence (excepting the specific constructs detailed in MOS:MUSIC).

Proposal:

• Follow the MOS (per the above conclusion).

Notes:

1. The benefit in accepting the proposal is, per the MOS, more “consistent usage and formatting”, throughout music articles and Wikipedia as a whole.
2. Per WP:CCC, “editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits”, not “on what influenced a past consensus”.

Wrapped in Grey (talk) 18:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK then, let me also restate the case against the proposal....

• There is an existing consensus that the band's name is "The Beatles" and that is how it is stated in reliable sources, even mid-sentence. Consensus can of course change, but only by establishing a new consensus.
• The previous consensus, as I understand it, was based on researching reliable sources and was not arrived at simply based on people's style preferences. The argument was that the band's name is actually "The Beatles" (including the capitalisation) and that an encyclopaedic article needs to recognise that.
• The argument put forward for a change to the status quo is entirely based on considerations of style. However, nowhere in the style guide does it say that style takes priority over reliably sourced fact.
• In other cases where bands have unusual capitalisation, Wikipedia uses the same capitalisation as given in reliable sources and does not try change it for reasons of style (INXS and Tír na nÓg (band) are examples).
• More specifically, in the case of other bands that capitalise the definite article (as determined from reliable sources), Wikipedia follows the practice of these sources (The Hollies and The The are two examples that I found without looking very hard). This does not seem very different from other proper names that include a capitalised definite article (The Times newspaper and The Hague being examples.
• People should not find the unusual capitalisation to be confusing. In fact it provides them with valuable information that this particular band' name uses distinctive capitalisation.
• If anyone wants to establish a new consensus, I believe they need to go back to reliable sources and establish that there is no firm basis for saying that the band's name is "The Beatles". Perhaps the previous consensus was mistaken on this point or perhaps reliable sources have changed.
• Going back and rebuilding the cases for and against, based on reliable sources, is a lot of work for very little, if any, benefit, so I would vote for sticking with the current consensus. Bluewave (talk) 21:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Per WP:CCC, “editors need to re-examine each proposal on its own merits”. Presenting an alternative set of premises does not constitute an argument against the proposal (it might represent a proposal to change the current guidelines but that of course would be an argument for elsewhere). If you want to argue against the proposal then you need to show either that one of the numbered premises is false, or that incorrect logic has been applied in combining the premises to form the conclusion. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 22:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Prolonging the discussion between the two of us is only going to confirm what we already know: that Wrapped in Grey and Bluewave do not agree with each other. We've had a view from Steelbeard, but let's get some views from others. Bluewave (talk) 09:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Arguing to not change something because of a previous consensus is not productive. The entire point of this discussion is to see what the current consensus is. Do not speak for everyone else by telling us what the consensus is. Reliable sources sometimes capitalise "the" in "The Beatles" mid-sentence and sometimes do not. Sources are reliable for different things. Rolling Stone may be reliable for information about music but it is not reliable for grammar. The Times is always capitalised mid-sentence because it is a title. The titles of books, films etc. are always capitalised. Bands do not have titles. "The Beatles" is the name of a group in the same way that "The Netherlands" is the name of a country. We should not capitalise definite articles mid-sentence unless part of a title. The "the" in "The Beatles" should not be capitalised mid-sentence in the same way as it is not in "The Netherlands". McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:09, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This has gone on long enough, and it should be nipped in the bud right now. They were not called Beatles, just as certain newspapers are not called Times, Independent, or Guardian.--andreasegde (talk) 19:56, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I never said they were, and I also said that The Times etc. are titles and should be treated differently to other names. McLerristarr | Mclay1 04:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Note that titles are italicized and names are not. (This correct grammar is used above.) In the English language we write The Times and we write the Thames. —Prhartcom (talk) 17:02, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus

• Support Contemporary writing describes them as the Beatles. The Beatles' press officer referred to the Beatles on record sleeves. So it seems clear that the Beatles didn't object to being the. Apepper (talk) 12:13, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support the proposal per my argument above. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose because The Beatles is the band's official legal name as well as a registered trade mark. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:46, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment As discussed above, MOS:TM is clear that we do not pander to trade mark oddities. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 05:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal Comment--Have you forgotten about the ABN AMRO debacle? Once again, the article's talk page is still much longer than the article itself. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment MOS:TM states the rule "Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names." Since "THE BEATLES" is what is trademarked, using "The Beatles" is not pandering to trademark oddities, it is actually following MOS:TM. CuriousEric^Talk 05:12, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. I see no reason to change the previous consensus. This tedious issue has been discussed endless times. Can we please just drop it.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 19:17, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The old consensus has been superseded by changes to the MoS which take a wider view; so yes, let's drop it. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 05:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support the proposal. McLerristarr's logic is sound. —Prhartcom (talk) 19:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, I like the Beatles. I am a Beatles fan. (Please re-read those two sentences carefully. Grammar is what is important.) —Prhartcom (talk) 16:20, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, perhaps subtlety is not working, so here goes: I do not like The Beatles. I am not a The Beatles fan. —Prhartcom (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When used as a noun, the name is "The Beatles." When used as an adjective, "Beatles" or "Beatle" is fine. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:40, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong Oppose. They were called The Beatles (which is a trademarked name, as proven by a legitimate and very legal document). They were not called Beatles. Try asking for copies of "Times, Guardian, and Independent". --andreasegde (talk) 19:53, 31 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The proposal is to follow the MoS; the MoS does not suggest to omit the definite article. — Wrapped in Grey (talk) 05:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal Comment--Once again, MoS is ONLY a guideline. Consensus trumps MoS. Steelbeard1 (talk) 12:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal Comment Please do not speak for everyone else by telling us what the consensus is. The entire point of this discussion is to see what the current consensus is. —Prhartcom (talk) 14:57, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal Comment to the Rebuttal Comment that came before this Rebuttal Comment. 'Nuff said.--andreasegde (talk) 13:16, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Thank you for the detailed explanation, alignment with the manual of style is always preferred. riffic (talk) 07:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• It is presumably clear from the discussion that I oppose, but I'll restate here for the avoidance of doubt. My reasons are set out above. Bluewave (talk) 08:10, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose Again? Do we really need to open up this contentious matter again? This has been debated many times, and the arguments in favor of the capitalized "The" - well summarized by Bluewave above - continue to be compelling. MoS is a guideline, Wrapped, not a commandment. And making an issue of this in the face of long standing, hard fought consensus, is a waste of time and energy, and will only serve to fracture the collegial atmosphere that allows us to create a top-notch set of articles about this group. And by the way, we go out of our way to call it The New York Times, not New York Times the New York Times (which has been a redirect since 2002), because that is the paper's name. Just as "The Beatles" is the group's name. Enough - can we please move on? Tvoz/talk 08:47, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reply – Will people please stop making silly comments about referring to names without the "the". No one is suggesting they are called "Beatles" but when we write about the Netherlands or the England football team or anything else containing "the" which isn't a title, we follow normal English grammar. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:50, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah sorry- actually I wasn't making that "silly" point - I accidentally left off the lower case "the". I meant to say: "And by the way, we go out of our way to call it The New York Times, not the New York Times (which has been a redirect since 2002), because that is the paper's name." My point was not about omitting the "the", it was about the need to capitalize the "The". Sorry for that confusion. Tvoz/talk 22:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. Well, that's OK then but my comment still applies to all the other editors who actually are making comments about missing out the "the". McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support use of "the Beatles" in running prose as per the Wikipedia guidelines which are the result of wider consensus than this talkpage, and per verified reliable sources. One of the main arguments I have noted for using "The Beatles" are that such usage is long standing - research shows that "the Beatles" has been used in earliest versions 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005, and 2006 - by 2007 there is equal mixed use of "The Beatles" and "the Beatles" - [10], then by 2008, usage of "The Beatles" is the majority - [11]. In 2009, lower case usage is back as the majority - [12], though revert wars are evident. Interestingly, when the article was voted in as a Featured Article in November 2009 there was an equal mix of lower and upper case - [13]. I don't see long standing consensus for using uppercase. For most of the article's history, and the earliest use, has been lowercase. There appears to have been a gradual and inconsistent creep of the use of "The Beatles", and this creep has been challenged on the talkpages. The change toward The Beatles has not been without protest! Another main argument has been the trade mark usage, but this has shown to be an inaccurate and inappropriate argument. The final main argument is that some sources do use "The Beatles". This is true, though it appears that the bulk of reliable sources use "the Beatles". While usage of upper or lowercase is not that important, and sources have used both, and like our article sometimes used both simultaneously, so there is no absolute "correct" usage, that there is an issue about it means that it would be better if it were resolved, and as our particular Manual of Style says use lower case, we should be following our own guidelines. That is why we have them - if there is a local dispute, we consult the wider consensus of the guidelines. I think I've waffled a bit in writing this as I have been distracted in Real Life - if I'm not clear, please let me know, and I'll rewrite. SilkTork *^YES! 12:34, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• OpposeHotcop2 (talk) 15:49, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is not a vote; you must provide a reason to generate discussion or you opinion will be ignored. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the group is The Beatles. Conversely, the name of a well-known disco group was Village People, not The Village People, but you'd need the "the" to describe them without sounding insane or Japanese. Hope this helps. Hotcop2 (talk) 01:03, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Could you clarify that comment Mclay? If you mean that in your opinion it is ineffective to use a single word to express one's position on a topic that has been discussed to death for years here, that's a reasonable observation (although I might disagree), but if you're suggesting that Hotcop's position would be ignored by anyone wanting to judge what the spirit of this group is on the matter, then I take serious exception. I am not aware of any rules like that for this kind of temperature-taking on an issue - it's not an RfA, for example, or even an AfD. Some of us have been around this block numerous times, and after a while you get tired of making the same argument over and over to the latest flurry of indignation about a repeated, fairly-reached, long-standing consensus. Hotcop is a very long time editor of articles about The Beatles - he's most certainly not a "drive-by" dropping in a "vote" - and my guess would be that he, like many of us, thought this was settled long ago. He can speak for himself, to be sure, but I am not comfortable with a suggestion that a one- word response would be ignored. Tvoz/talk 22:04, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:NOTAVOTE#Straw poll guidelines #8. McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm familiar with that guideline. It does not threaten as does "you must provide a reason to generate discussion or you opinion will be ignored". It advises " votes without reasonable accompanying rationales receive little consideration unless you also explain why you are voting the way you are. Votes without rationales sometimes are ignored." There's a difference. Tvoz/talk 08:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The difference is the writers of that guideline were being diplomatic, whereas as I'm telling it like it is. Just adding a load of Supports or Opposes to the discussion is not helpful. I made that comment in the hope that the writer of the comment would then say something, which they did. McLerristarr | Mclay1 03:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong support. (1) This is not really a question of correct spelling, but a question of house style. It does not matter what the official name or mode of address of The Beatles or of Her Majesty The Queen or of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is. If it's common to call them the Beatles, Elizabeth II or Pennsylvania, then we may decide to do so both in the title of an article on the subject and elsewhere. (2) Our house style says that in this situation we do not capitalise the definite article. That's not unusual at all as you can see by doing Google Books searches on sentence fragments such as "the Beatles went". When the definite article does not start a sentence, it is spelled with a small letter in about half the books found. I tested the same for the Guardian website (the website of The Guardian for anyone confused by the capitalisation) and found that on the first two pages of hits the definite article was consistently spelled with a small letter. So our house style appears to agree with theirs, which rules out the theoretical possibility that there should be an exception for UK-related articles. (3) Titles losing their special status is a sign of importance and success, because it only happens when they are appear often. If we use in-sentence capitalisation of articles for some groups but not for others, then we must use it for the less important groups. It's beyond absurd to do it only for the Beatles and no other groups, because it indicates that the Beatles are one of the least important groups. Which they are not. Hans Adler 16:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting point about Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom, given that the most common usage is The Queen - capitalised T - in the English speaking countries, is that the band Queen do not have any type of t/The prefacing their name. How does the MOS address this? Well, by referring to them in article space as Queen or "the band Queen" - which indicates that there are exceptions. It is not consistent, nor is it good grammar, but it is permitted. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:22, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Common usage is not "The Queen", it's "the Queen". Writing "The Queen" in the middle of a sentence is wrong by anyone's standards. McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "the Beatles" is way more informal than "The Beatles", that was their official name, not only "Beatles". Diego Grez (talk) 17:16, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Comment The proposal is not about formaility;it's about consistency. At the moment, we have to write "... the Rolling Stones and the Kinks, while The Beatles ..." — madness. Wrapped in Grey (talk) 20:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes... you're right. Support for consistency. Diego Grez (talk) 20:38, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  Question - How would this logic apply to The Who? — GabeMc (talk) 02:24, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - As an editor, I would rather have a consistent "house style" (i.e. MOS) than to have different rules for different bands. GoingBatty (talk) 17:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - Per WP:MOS. Soxwon (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - Per WP:Consensus. Earlier I saw someone strongly suggest another editor not tell them what the consensus is, because this latest poll is being used to determine it... At that point, I realised that there is a grave misunderstanding of what WP:Consensus is and how it is applied; WP:Consensus is the weighing of opinions of interpretation of policy and guidelines, and determining which is closest to the spirit intended. Once WP:Consensus has been established it can only be changed when policy or guidelines are changed, or the interpretations upon them. Crucially, WP:Consensus is not a vote or a shouting match or a slow edit war. You do not get to run a few polls, and when you get the result you like declare the result is "consensus" - that is how it may work IRL, but not on Wikipedia.
  The existing WP:Consensus (I trust no-one objects to these capitals in running text...) is that the band should be referred to as The Beatles whenever the entity is noted anywhere in the article. This poll may not, per WP:Consensus, seek to replace the existing WP:Consensus, but to determine whether the existing WP:Consensus still holds - and it has to be shown that it does not, demonstrably. The case presented is that the relevant WP:MOS guideline sufficiently deprecates the existing WP:Consensus. It cannot, as Guidelines do not trump Policy. What has been agreed on the WP:MOS guideline page may not supersede policy on any page on Wikipedia unless it has consensus on the policy page or local consensus on any page effected by that policy.
  As an editor, although preferring to capitalise the T, I was convinced by the arguments for the lower case. As an admin, I am concerned at the continuing efforts by editors of whom most are more involved in effecting a standardisation to a guideline rather than contributing to the article which they desire to comply with said guideline. It is a very fine guideline, and a boon to the project, but it cannot be imposed without a WP:Consensus involving those people who edit the article to which it is proposed to be applied. When it is shown that the existing WP:Consensus is in error, that the Policies it relies on have been deprecated or changed or the interpretations upon it are flawed or obsolete, then there may be a discussion on what the WP:Consensus should be. Until then, go away. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:11, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that this page has a local consensus that contradicts the project-wide consensus of what to do with such titles for no good reason. It's perfectly OK for a local consensus to override a global consensus if the local situation is special in a way that can justify this. However, a local consensus cannot, in the long run, override a global consensus in the absence of such special factors. E.g. the editors of an article may decide to use Wikipedia's server logs as a source for novel claims in an article if all the "reliable" secondary sources get things totally wrong and make untrue accusations against a living person. (This actually happened on Sam Blacketer controversy.) But editors may not decide to write an article without using the letter e because that's a cool thing to do in the lipogram article. (This also happened.) Note that in the latter case there is even a marginally special situation, while there is nothing special about a capitalised definite article in a trademark.

As long as there is a tension between local and global consensus on this matter, you will have these discussions. Don't complain about the discussions if you contribute to the problem. If you want to voice your opinion here, as a normally responsible editor and respected admin, support the change. If for some reason you are unable to do that, work for a change of the general rules that you are in conflict with, don't just vote for ignoring them. And if you can't change the global consensus, accept it. Hans Adler 22:40, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

PS: And, seriously now, you have been an admin for ages and you dare oppose a proposal to get an article in line with both the general MOS and the subject-specific MOS, which has very detailed guidance for precisely the situation that arises at the article – based only on the rationale that the proposal is against "consensus"? Hans Adler 23:03, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In what way does WP:CONSENSUS oppose this proposal? This is a discussion to see what the current consensus is. WP:CONSENSUS does not say that once consensus has been reached, it is unchangeable and no discussions are allowed to take place so "go away". McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose We write articles for our readers, not for ourselves. So it scarcely matters in that regard, since the only complaints, if any, are coming from within. That's a particularly introspective, if not selfish, viewpoint. So the MOS has changed? So what? It's a guideline, descriptive and not prescriptive. As long as I've been here, this debate has resurfaced again and again an again, to the extent that it is recorded in WP:LAME. This does us no credit whatsoever, because if I were an external commentator looking at this spat in the context of other stuff that is flagged for attention in Wikipedia, my immediate reaction would be "WTF? Let it be". If this really fails as an article, fix it; but FFS, do not fix that which isn't broken for the sake of trivial detail. Have our readers complained? I do not think so. So leave it and get on with the work that really does need doing. WP:LAME is just waiting to expose the irrationality that exhibits here. It works, so don't fix it. Rodhullandemu 01:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Rebuttal Comment Rarely could I disagree with you, Rodhullandemu; you are one of the most respected administrators on Wikipedia, certainly one of the most respected in the Beatles space. I particularly enjoyed your point about WP:LAME. But regarding your last sentence...perhaps it doesn't work. Perhaps our readers wish we would fix it. Cheers. —Prhartcom (talk) 01:43, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with you whole-heartedly if those casual readers made a point of the difference here; but the facts that remains is that they haven't. This makes me think that they are happy with things the way they are. Let's be clear here; this is perhaps one of the most scrutinised articles we have, and if readers are unhappy with the way it's written, either they don't understand our processes for changing things, or they do not wish to intervene. And that, I think, is the bottom line. Perfection is extremely subjective, but adequacy seems to be generally acceptable. Meanwhile, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". Rodhullandemu 01:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So you are satisfied with mere adequacy? Unless a casual reader goes out of their way to make a complaint on the talk page, then an article is fine? McLerristarr | Mclay1 02:06, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

When I wrote safety-critical real-time software, "adequacy" was the highest accolade achievable, measured against meeting requirements. Anything else was just fluff. I'm not suggesting that no article cannot be improved, but that in order to survive and fulfil its informative purpose, "adequate" is a useful measure for an article. This article achieves that, in my view, and minor details are beyond argument. In particular, arguments of form over content are unusually unhelpful, because the reader has the same experience of being informed, whatever the detail, and in my experience, this is not a contentious issue for them. Why is that so hard to understand? Rodhullandemu 02:20, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I had no idea you were a The Beatles fan! Cheers. —Prhartcom (talk) 16:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) That was a lot of words to say you oppose the proposal. Do you also have a reason? The proposal is to bring the article in line with the relevant guidelines and should not even be necessary because the edits bringing it in line with the relevant guidelines should be uncontroversial. What's your rationale for not following the guidelines? Are they wrong? Is consistency across the project evil? You are not saying, so we have to guess. Hans Adler 01:46, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guidelines are advisory: descriptive rather than prescriptive. In this special case, historical consensus seems to be different, and it would take some persuading to overrride such consensus. Rodhullandemu 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's the "It has always been that way although nobody really seems to remember why and I certainly don't, but I oppose change because I don't want things to change" argument, combined with the ever popular "that's only a guideline" argument. Together they don't make a valid argument. Not a single valid argument against the proposal has been offered. One half of the opponents is either too stupid or pretends to be too stupid to understand that according to the relevant guidelines the Beatles' official name doesn't matter much more than that of the "Commonwealth of" Pennsylvania. The other half simply makes unverifiable claims about a supposed consensus that apparently trumps guidelines a priori. Persuading to override a consensus can only happen in an atmosphere in which both sides take part in a discussion in good faith. That is not the case here. One side is pointing out that this article violates all applicable guidelines for no good reason at all. The other side is simply sitting on the status quo, content with the fact that they can veto any change through their large number. It's an abuse of the fact that editors are reluctant to take a trifle such as this to a project-wide RfC. Hans Adler 08:29, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) I dislike the attitude of thinking a problem is too minor to address. A problem is a problem. You may not think it is but some of us clearly do. McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:49, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A problem is an opportunity, but to ignore history, and the collective wisdom of previous editors who have debated this issue long and hard, with much metaphorical bloodshed, is to ride roughshod over the prevailing consensus. In other words, you need an extremely strong case. And it's only a problem because you have chosen to make it so rather than to balance the history. Rodhullandemu 02:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose as there is no "real" reason for the change besides some "style" guideline that has changed that does not override any consensus here. As mentioned above by SilkTork yes the style has not always been consistent - but has been stable since its last FA review in 2009 and can only imagine this is when and were the "Style" was discussed. I can imagine how frustrating it must be for the long time editors of the page to have to deal with this all the time and now by way of guideline dogma....Moxy (talk) 02:43, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody has claimed that guidelines override consensus. We are trying to get a new consensus. Would those who oppose please co-operate in the discussion and not just oppose because "that's the way it's always been" or "no reason to change"? Please provide actual reasons. McLerristarr | Mclay1 03:24, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if i was not clear ...just got sidetracked by the time i was done reading all to this point and forgot the point. I think "The Beatles" is the way to go - just looks right and is what i have seen used most of the time.Moxy (talk) 05:13, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The words and music of John Lennon By Ben Urish, Kenneth G. Bielen 2007
• The songwriting secrets of the Beatles By Dominic Pedler 2003
• With the Beatles: the historic photographs of Dezo Hoffmann By Dezo Hoffmann, Pearce Marchbank 1982
• The Beatles: A Diary By Barry Miles 2002
• Why Don't We Do It in the Road?: The Beatles Phenomenon By John Astley 2006
• The rough guide to the Beatles By Chris Ingham 2003
• The Music of George Harrison: While My Guitar Gently Weeps By Simon Leng 2003
• Beatles-Discography.com: Day-By-Day Song-By-Song Record-By-Record By Craig Cross 2004
• The Beatles - after the break-up: in their own words By David Bennahum 1991
• The Beatles Diary: The Beatles years By Barry Miles, Keith Badma 2001
• The Beatles Off the Record: The Dream Is Over By Keith Badman 2002
• The Beatles By Jeremy Roberts 2002

Comment @Moxy: The contention is not that the local consensus (based on the style guides of certain Beatles books) was wrong at the time; it is that it is at odds with the later and wider consensus. @LessHeard: “Earlier I saw someone strongly suggest another editor not tell them what the consensus is, because this latest poll is being used to determine it”. Neither did the editor use the word poll (he used discussion) nor is the discussion being treated as one. “Once WP:Consensus has been established it can only be changed when policy or guidelines are changed”. The local consensus was made in 2008; the MOS:MUSIC consensus was made in 2010. The Beatles wikiproject is a child of the Music wikiproject. WP:CONSENSUS: participants in a WikiProject cannot decide that some generally accepted policy or guideline does not apply to articles within its scope.— Wrapped in Grey (talk) 06:09, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - the reasons for support outweigh the reasons to oppose.

Reasons for "the" (support):

1. Several books use "the Beatles". Mark Lewisohn is described as the world's leading authority on the Beatles. Google books shows snipets from his book "The Beatles Recording Sessions" here. Hunter Davies wrote the book "The Beatles", Google books also shows his use of "the Beatles" midsentence here.
2. Several major publications use "the Beatles": The New York Times, The Guardian, The Times.

Reasons for "The" (oppose):

1. WP:TM states "Capitalize trademarks, as with proper names.", requiring "The Beatles" should always be used.
2. www.thebeatles.com uses both "The" and "the" (here and here) so either should be acceptable.
3. Too much time spent debating this issue, and further editing required to undo the efforts of past consensus.
4. "It works, so don't fix it." stated above by Rodhullandemu.

CuriousEric^Talk 06:56, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong preference for not arguing this again, (as it's a waste of time to argue it) with a lesser preference for the status quo ante. (as it's a waste of time to change it) ++Lar: t/c 19:41, 2 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Lar, about the extreme waste of time that this is. Tvoz/talk 08:18, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - If we look for a broad consensus in the Beatles sources we find that Gould uses lower case, Spitz uses lower case, Harry uses lower case, Lewisohn uses lower case, so does Davies. Miles uses lower case in Paul's bio, but upper in The Beatles Diary. George Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, and Brian Epstein all used lower case in their books. Carlin uses lower case in A Life. In Lennon Remembers, Wenner uses lower case even when quoting John. In John, Cynthia uses lower case, as does Norman, Seaman and Goldman in their Lennon bios. Patty Boyd uses lower case in her book. Interestingly, if you look through the liner notes from the 2009 remasters, you will find examples of both upper and lower case, sometimes changing from page to page (Abbey Road and The Beatles, aka The White Album), and though upper case seems to be preferred in general, Derek Taylor used lower for at least one of his original album liner notes (Beatles For Sale). I support the change to lower case not without some reservations, but because the bulk of reliable sources use "the Beatles", the MoS says we should not capitalise definite articles mid-sentence unless part of a title, and for the sake of consistency across the project. — GabeMc (talk) 00:26, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anybody fancy a pie and a pint? --andreasegde (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment With luck we can keep going on and on about this longer than the Beatles' (sic) recording career. We can find it all the way back in Archive 1 of the talk page way back on 25 June 2004,[14] a little over 6 years and 7 months ago. If we count their recording career from the time JPG+R first were all together in a professional recording studio until the last time, that's 4 Sept 1962 to 20 Aug 1969. So remember fab friends, 6 years, 11 months and 16 days is what we're pulling for! Oh, and as for the vote thingy: the Beatles called themselves "the Beatles" and that's good enough for me. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then since it sounds like you support the proposal, and since you have not voted yet, could you please change your word "Comment" above to "Support"? —Prhartcom (talk) 18:04, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Rodhullandemu and CuriousEric. If it isn't broke don't fix it. I personally don't see the point in wasting server space over something this small and pointless. --Guerillero | My Talk 04:10, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Guerillero, CuriousEric supports the change to lower case. — GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Rodhullandemu and CuriousEric. I'm really not sure how or why this is perceived to be such a significant problem that takes up so much of the discussion page. The band's legal name is The Beatles, not Beatles. Obviously, in such instances where grammar is a question the "The" can be eliminated or the sentence can be rearranged. This does not mean we have to change every "The Beatles" to "Beatles". After all, I could tell you I read something "in that New Yorker article" because it's being used as an adjective, but if you ask me to repeat what the name of the magazine was I say "The New Yorker", because that's its proper name. That's what Wikipedia, a website dedicated to facts and accuracy, should be showing. Krobertj (talk) 16:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, did you read the discussion at all? Nowhere has anyone suggested removing the "the" from their name. McLerristarr | Mclay1 04:08, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto, and FYI Krobertj, CuriousEric supports the change to lower case. — GabeMc (talk) 00:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Contemporary articles - including those by the band's own press officer - refer to them as "the Beatles". Band naming has changed since the sixties; generally 50s/60s bands had pluralised names (eg Freddy and the Dreamers, the Rolling Stones, the Ink Spots). The "the" wasn't part of the name; band members would refer to themselves as "Beatles" not as "one of The Beatles". Apepper (talk) 17:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but it sounds like you support, not oppose, the proposal to use the lower case "the". Could you please clarify? —Prhartcom (talk) 17:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for fixing that (it used to say Oppose). —Prhartcom (talk) 03:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. What is all this about the Manual of Style? Read the thing:

Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word "the" should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose. Specific cases where "the" should be capitalized mid-sentence are: when quoted, e.g. ... and according to BBC journalist Julie Glassman, “they can boast almost as many tribute bands as The Beatles”. Read 'em and weep, because that is exactly what is written in the MoS.. --andreasegde (talk) 18:45, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That is the guidlines when quoted. In the case shown, the editor is quoting someone else who used the upper case definite article. [15] It is not applicable to our discussion. This is. —Prhartcom (talk) 19:20, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What, like "Correct (title): J.R.R. Tolkien wrote The Lord of the Rings."? Is that not applicable? Your argument doesn't hold water on any level.--andreasegde (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I was pointing out you cannot use that particular example from the MoS in your argument, as it was not applicable to our discussion (we are not discussing the capitalisation of the definite article when quoting other people, as your example is doing). Now you have moved on to some other example in the MoS, and I can only assume you're hoping I won't notice. —Prhartcom (talk) 20:03, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Meow. The Beatles are a famous group, but the Beatles who went to Paris on holiday were Lennon and McCartney, and not The Beatles. --andreasegde (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. No question that the band's full name is "The Beatles", and we can use that in formal contexts. But similarly, common usage refers to them as just "Beatles"much more often than not. To put in an outside perspective: In Germany, they are universally knows as "die Beatles", not "die The Beatles" (which would be grammatically fine, but which I have never seen). For common usage in English see e.g. Allmusic, Rolling Stone Magazine, The Times (ironically? ;-), the Guardian, NYT. Also, see WP:LAME. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:27, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - If we look to the Beatles' official logo, we see that all the letters in "the" are the same size, and only the "B" in "Beatles" is capitalized. — GabeMc (talk) 02:12, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looks to me that all the letters in the Beatles logo are capitalized, and the "B" and "T" in "BEATLES" are larger than the rest of the letters. (Don't know how your comment pertains to the "the" versus "The" debate.) GoingBatty (talk) 02:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The difference between a 'T' and a 't' is very evident, as are H/h, and E/e. Oompah, Oompah. --andreasegde (talk) 11:14, 1 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My point is this, the "t" in "the" is not larger then the "h" or the "e", so while they all appear to be a capitalized font, there is no debating that the "B" is larger than the "e" it preceeds. If the "t" in "the" were capitalized, then it would appear larger then the "h" it preceeds, it does not. — GabeMc (talk) 02:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, the examples of The New York Times and The New Yorker are correct but the reasoning is incorrect and doesn't necessarily apply to the name of group. The definite article "The" is included because it is part of a title of a book, magazine, newspaper or other literary or artistic work, not because it is a proper noun. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Use of "The" mid-sentence Piriczki (talk) 13:37, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. Per WP:MOS. Paul August ☎ 14:38, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. The fact is that if the article wanted to be correct according to how English is generally written, then sometimes "the Beatles" would be used and sometimes "The Beatles" would be used, depending on what is being referred to. So I'm saying everybody's wrong really. I know this isn't a realistic outcome, but in sentences where "the Beatles" is referring to a group of people who happen to be in the band "The Beatles" then it should be lowercased. When sentences refer to the band "The Beatles" as an entity then "the" should be capitalized because The Beatles is the proper name of the band, and the first word of a proper name, even if a definite article, should always be capitalized. example: "I walked into the restaurant and the Beatles were all there eating." In that sentence It's reffering to the four members of The Beatles. Second example: "I walked into the restaurant and the four members of The Beatles were all there eating." The difference between the first sentence and the second is that the "the" in the first sentence is similar to the FIRST the in the second sentence. In the first sentence the "the" is just a definite article, and should not be capitalized. More examples. Ringo says "I'm the Beatle who drums." vs. Ringo saying "I'm the drummer for The Beatles". Again in one sentence "the" is just a definite article and in the second "The" is taking place as part of the proper name of the band. This is the MOST correct usage, not one single answer. However if that's just too hard or confusing then I would say use The Beatles every time because the band as an entity is being referred to more often than the group of band members as individuals. 24.111.116.220 (talk) Matt S. —Preceding undated comment added 05:05, 25 March 2011 (UTC).[reply]

Sources

• A quotation from Fifty Years Adrift by Derek Taylor using "the Beatles". McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• On the Beatles' official website, their usage is inconsistent; however, usually it is written as "The Beatles" but there are numerous typographical errors so websites usually aren't the best place to look. Edited written works are far more reliable. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:59, 1 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

These are some sources currently used to verify the article that use a lower case "the":

• Alcantara, Paul; Hall, Sally J. (24 September 2005). "Ivor Arbiter: Captain of the Music Industry and Designer of the Beatles' 'Drop-T' Logo" The Independent
• Ashplant, T.G.; Smyth, Gerry (2001). Explorations in Cultural History. London: Pluto. ISBN 978-0745315126.
• Aswad, Jem (16 November 2010). "Beatles End Digital Boycott, Catalog Now on iTunes" Rolling Stone (New York).
• Austerlitz, Saul (2007). Money for Nothing: A History of the Music Video, from The Beatles to The White Stripes Ann Arbor: University of Michigan Press. ISBN 0-7119-7520-5.
• Barnett, Emma (3 November 2009). "Beatles Back Catalogue Still on Sale via BlueBeat Despite EMI Investigation" The Daily Telegraph (London)
• "George Harrison Dies" BBC News Online. 30 November 2001.
• Blecha, Peter (2004). Taboo Tunes: A History of Banned Bands & Censored Songs San Francisco: Backbeat Books. ISBN 9780879307929
• Brown, Peter; Gaines, Steven (2002). The Love You Make: An Insider's Story of The Beatles New York: New American Library. ISBN 978-0-451-20735-7
• Campbell, Michael (2008). Popular Music in America East Windsor, CT: Wadsworth. ISBN 978-0495505303
• Cateforis, Theo (2007). The Rock History Reader New York and Abingdon, OX: Routledge. ISBN 978-0415975018.

— GabeMc (talk) 01:38, 3 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The Office, The Apprentice, The Wire, The Archers, and The Likely Lads
• The Who,The Drifters, The Band, The Libertines, The The, The Cure, The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band, The Dandy Warhols, The Jam, The Knack, The La's, The Undertones, The Shadows, Gerry & The Pacemakers, The Dakotas (band), The Verve and The Beach Boys
• The Independent, The Observer, The Lancet, The Sun, The Scotsman, The Stage, The Spectator, The Sunday Times (UK) The Tablet, The Daily Telegraph, circulation equals The Sunday Telegraph, The Independent on Sunday, The Wire magazine, The Fortean Times, The Oldie, The London Evening Standard, and The Jewish News.
• The Pension Service, The Highway Code, The Photographers' Gallery, The Women's Library, The Fat Duck, The National Gallery, The Herald, The o2, The Place, The Lighthouse and The Children's Society --andreasegde (talk) 13:23, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good points, but those are all bands, TV shows, or groups of people who are not the Beatles. I repeat, George Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, and Brian Epstein all used lower case in their books, as did Spitz, Harry, Lewisohn and Davies. Derek Taylor used lower case in his first liner notes after becoming the band's press agent. Surely the band agreed with his usage at the time. It seems that sources closest to the band prefered lower case. — GabeMc (talk) 21:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Or some nameless copy editor put in his or her preferred rendering in those books and liner notes. There's actually no indication of what the authors wanted or what the band agreed with or cared about or if they even saw the books or liner notes ahead of time or at all, so this is a silly argument. Tvoz/talk 23:33, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you suggesting that George Harrison wrote his autobiography using upper case, then a copy-editor changed it to lower case, and he never knew or cared, or put any thought into the choice? How do you know this? — GabeMc (talk) 23:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have a human hair here; I know this because it came from mine own head. However, I lack a microtome with which to split it. And that's probably where this debate is right now. Not important, and let's move on to something that matters, please. Rodhullandemu 23:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

On page 14 of In His Own Write is a brief comment from McCartney, in which Paul mentions "the Beatles" and uses the lower case, or at least the copy-editor of John's book used a lower case. — GabeMc (talk) 23:59, 4 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder how anybody could pronounce a lower case definite article.--andreasegde (talk) 22:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know that Paul did not write the page with his own hand? At any rate, John's copy-editor thought lower case was appropriate. — GabeMc (talk) 00:39, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

How do you know he "did"? This could go on forever, but it's the big kid's bat & ball, and his dad's bigger than both our dads.--andreasegde (talk) 17:56, 18 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Also, "the Beatles." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, 2011. Web. 19 Mar. 2011. <http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/57495/the-Beatles> uses "the Beatles". Paul August ☎ 14:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus

There is no numerical consensus for using either The Beatles or the Beatles. An independent admin could evaluate the discussion and reach a closing decision either way, or close as no consensus. It might be worth looking at proposals for dealing with the situation, as it appears there is not even consensus as which consensus is more binding, that decided locally, or that decided on guidelines. My understanding based on previous discussions and specific policy is that guidelines take precedence over WikiProjects and small groups of editors working on an article or group of articles. Policy would dictate that in a dispute such as this, that the wider community view is the one taken - which would mean that "the Beatles" would be the preferred usage. Though there is also the understanding that guidelines reflect actual community usage, and the argument has been used here that there is a consensus to use "The Beatles" in this article. However, there appears to be no such consensus at present, and such a consensus has not been long standing, as this article has mostly through its history used "the Beatles". It is possible that usage of "the Beatles" / "The Beatles" will continue to be debated and fought over, with perhaps only the most determined (rather than the most appropriate) usage prevailing. Anyway - possible outcomes:

1. That the article is brought in line with the wider community consensus as there is no local consensus as per specific policy. The usage is changed to "the Beatles" and a talkpage header message created which says that the article uses "the Beatles" as per MoS and Music guidelines.
2. The current situation remains (the status quo), and the article continues using "The Beatles" with a talkpage header message saying that while no consensus has been reached, in order to prevent disruption the usage has been allowed to continue, and any changes to such usage are discouraged as they may result in disruption.
3. That nothing is imposed on editors who are free to use either "the Beatles" or "The Beatles" according to their personal preference, and such usage is not reverted or argued over.
4. That this debate is continued.
5. That this debate is ignored and nothing further is done.

Anything is possible. My preference is for #1. SilkTork *^YES! 11:27, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone would like this to be another debate.--andreasegde (talk) 18:47, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't want another one either. Steelbeard1 (talk) 11:30, 4 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My preference is for also for #1. — GabeMc (talk) 02:11, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Stop this, or you'll get sent to bed without any supper, and we'll take your modem away. Ever tried a hair shirt? Lots of fun on dark winter evenings.--andreasegde (talk) 12:52, 5 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So this doesn't roll on for ever, can I take it that we have a consensus for #1, close this discussion, and move forward with the actions outlined. SilkTork *^YES! 20:12, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, we don't have consensus for number 1. The only thing we may have consensus for is giving up the discussion....so you might get away with it... Bluewave (talk) 23:09, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any consensus for giving up the discussion. — GabeMc (talk) 00:20, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No, you're right: it will probably go on forever. Bluewave (talk) 09:40, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I vote for #1. I also vote to end the discussion. GlitchCraft (talk) 02:39, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Surely if the article currently uses The, and there is no consensus to change it, then it stays. Is that not how consensus works?--Pawnkingthree (talk) 02:53, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is indeed. Let It Be.--Patthedog (talk) 12:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Pawnkingthree & Patthedog, so then by your logic an error would remain as long as there is not a consensus to correct it. In actuality WP:MOS is clear about definite articles mid-sentence, and there is a consensus at WP:MOS to not capitalize them. Why would a lack of consensus at an article trump consensus at WP:MOS? — GabeMc (talk) 00:53, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - George Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, and Brian Epstein all used lower case in their books, as did Spitz, Harry, Lewisohn, Miles, Lennon, Boyd and Davies. Seems like a wider consensus among professional writers and copy-editors has been reached. — GabeMc (talk) 01:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As a note for — GabeMc, you should look at your favourite pages, because these: "first referred to as The Pink Floyd Sound", "album, The Piper at the Gates of Dawn", "with The Dark Side of the Moon", "opening of The Roundhouse", "in The Financial Times and The Sunday Times", "for the film The Committee", "at the same time that The Beatles", "in history, The Wall", "with The Royal Fusiliers", "attended The Perse School", "the group became known as The Abdabs, or The (Screaming) Abdabs", "and The Division Bell", "solo album, The Pros and Cons of Hitch Hiking", and "originally titled The Bike Song", seem to show that you like it that way. Wow, you took Roger Waters to FA with those, huh? --andreasegde (talk) 07:30, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Despite the lack of consensus, I see that SilkTork has now globally changed The Beatles to the Beatles in the article. Bluewave (talk) 11:48, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• It's "the Beatles", lowercase. Please see ref WP:LAME. Let's go ahead and create a new category, WP:EXTRALAMEWITHWHIPCREAMONTOP. I vote lowercase "the". I vote this is execrably lame. I vote archive this thread. GlitchCraft (talk) 12:09, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd have sympathy for anyone who said this is lame....unless, in the same breath, they are expressing a strong advocacy for one side of the argument. Telling people to put out the fire whilst, yourself, chucking another log on the blaze doesn't really work. Bluewave (talk) 14:21, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This has been debated many times, so you lower casers are WP:LAME. I am truly shocked that Silk Tork, who has been here long enough and should know better, actually did what he did. It has been reverted.--andreasegde (talk) 16:43, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• That's interesting Andreasegde, because the "lower casers", as you call them, include George Harrison (in his autobiography), and Paul McCartney (answering a fan's question on his official website (See; From Evans The Sweep) and in his official biography by Miles. If you look at John Lennon's official website, you will see they use the lower case. On page 14 of Lennon's book In His Own Write a lower case "t" is used on a page authored by Paul. Are you really arguing that Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, Brian Epstein, Bob Spitz, Bill Harry, Mark Lewisohn, Barry Miles, Julia Lennon, and Paty Boyd all incorrectly used a lower case "t" when writing "the Beatles" mid-sentence? — GabeMc (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• I was waiting for you to turn up again. Who took Roger Waters to FA, with "The Pink Floyd Sound" written in the text? You friggin' did. Answer that one... :))--andreasegde (talk) 02:47, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• That's a good catch, and as I check Mason's book (page 30), I see that he uses a lower case "t". Thanks, I'll fix it. — GabeMc (talk) 03:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You mean you didn't spot it before you took it to FA? Tut, tut, tut. You'd better fix "The Perse School", and "The Royal Fusiliers" as well. Maybe you could do the Wall and the Dark Side of the Moon while you're at it.--andreasegde (talk) 03:50, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch, I fixed the Perse School and the Royal Fusiliers, thanks for your help. As far as The Wall and The Dark Side of the Moon, these are album titles that do not follow the same rules. — GabeMc (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting is inappropriate and against policy

Wikipedia guidelines have been and are being followed. The issue has been discussed, and the options outlined. Sometimes the outcome is not to the liking of individuals. This is an aspect of being part of a collaborative project. We have procedures in place for when somebody is unhappy with a decision, and reverting is not one of them. It is inappropriate to force one's opinion. We prefer to follow consensus, to use discussion, and to refer to guidelines. That has been done in this case. There is no local consensus for either "the Beatles" or "The Beatles", therefore we use the wider consensus of the guidelines which is for "the Beatles". Referring to wider consensus is, as detailed above, the policy on Wikipedia. See WP:CONLIMITED.

Discussion on this matter can go round in circles, and nobody is really willing to carry on the debate. If anyone really things that my actions are inappropriate, please raise the issue at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. While it is exhausting to keep talking, that is at least less disruptive than reverting. See Wikipedia:Reverting. SilkTork *^YES! 19:12, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You are very, very wrong on this, and, but even though you said that you wouldn't like this to go further, you have only poured a whole gallon of petrol on the fire. I will revert, but then you can block me..--andreasegde (talk) 19:31, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have no intention of blocking anyone; nor of protecting the article; nor of engaging in a revert war. I have taken part in the discussion after being asked to. I noted that there was no local consensus so outlined the possible actions. There appeared to me to be consensus for option #1, and that consensus was supported by our guidelines, our policies, our ethos, and the majority of reliable sources. I was reverted. I restored the edits and explained my actions, and pointed out that the appropriate course of action would be to raise the issue at ANI. I have been reverted again. I will not take it further. I have raised the issue at Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#The_Beatles. I would like to simply back away from this issue. It is a trivial issue not worthy of our attention. However, I do feel that if we have guidelines and policies, that these should be followed rather than forcing individual (or small group) opinions. We have guidelines and policies in order to prevent incidents like this. SilkTork *^YES! 21:06, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You started this by deciding that you would ignore all the conversations above, and saying "There appeared to me to be consensus", which is not good enough at all, as you should know. You have opened another can of worms, and this can only get worse, as if it it hasn't already. There will always be editors in the future (let's not forget the future) that will say it should be 'the' or 'The', which means this argument will go on after we are all very dead. As a last word, if the articles ever are changed to 'the' Beatles, then the whole project should be renamed "Beatles".--andreasegde (talk) 21:19, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how SilkTork can possibly claim there was a consensus. In the discussion, when SilkTork stated "can I take it that we have a consensus for #1...", I replied "No, we don't have consensus for number 1. The only thing we may have consensus for is giving up the discussion...." and someone else added "I don't see any consensus for giving up the discussion...." This looks pretty clear to me. Bluewave (talk) 22:03, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• • Well we can find out, I have opened an ArbCom Request. LessHeard vanU (talk) 22:33, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This: "You are involved in a recently-filed request for arbitration. Please review the request at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Disruption at The Beatles article and talkpage and, if you wish to do so, enter your statement and any other material you wish to submit to the Arbitration Committee" has just been added to my own page. Thanks a lot, Silk Tork.--andreasegde (talk) 22:36, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Me too! Well, I've never heard of ArbCom before, so this will be interesting! And I'm not sure why this is about disruption, when it appears to me to be a content dispute. Bluewave (talk) 22:52, 14 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh God please tell me you folks are not actually gonna go to arbcom over "The" versus "the"... well, if you do, don't call my name out when you're listing involved parties. I personally hereby publicly wash my hands of this Über-lameness. Unwatching, while wincing... GlitchCraft (talk)

Howabout THE BEATLES, as it's roughly shown on the front of Starr's drums. PS: And Lennon thought it was tough enough explaining the spelling of Beatles with an a. GoodDay (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GoodDay: Are Ringo's drums a reliable source? Do they have a reputation for accuracy and fact-checking? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC) A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I see the Arbitration request is not going well. WP:LAME seems to be the consensus there. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:16, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Steelbeard, you're right, but....

• Yes it's lame. But this applies equally to both sides.
• No it doesn't look like ArbCom can be bothered with it.
• Neither side of the argument is so compelling that it is unquestionably right. If that were the case, it wouldn't have dragged on for years.
• This is not just some handful of disruptive people making life difficult for everyone else. Over the years, a lot of different people have got involved on one side or the other, many of them editors of good-standing.
• But LessHeard vanU is right that the long-term effect of this dispute is disruptive.
• There is no real compromise position. We either have to agree to use 'the Beatles' or 'The Beatles'.
• We need a resolution that has some long-term stability. Even if the current protagonists agree to stop arguing and settle for one option or the other, it won't be long before someone else comes along and starts it all up again.

Suggestions, anyone? Bluewave (talk) 11:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We can run a Wikipedia:Requests for comment. It can be just in regard of whether the letter t should be capitalised in Beatles related articles, or - my preference - whether the consensus found at the Wikipedia:Manual of Style guideline should take precedence over the local consensus held by the various editors of the articles (this is noting that both parties are able to produce examples of reliable sources using the t capitalised and uncapitalised). Whether this dispute is disruptive, and whether any result from the RfC should be imposed upon all parties, might also be included in the RfC. So, I propose a 3 part RfC which will hopefully bring this issue to a conclusion. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:03, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

If you want I can try to start an Arbcom case, asking them to sanction you for continuing to claim that the local consensus is for capitalisation when actually there is no more than a status quo and a lack of consensus to change it to bring it in line with an applicable guideline. Hans Adler 15:39, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• The answer has always been there:
• It is correct that the Beatles who went to Paris on holiday were Lennon and McCartney.
• The album, Beatles for Sale, is a joke about the Beatles who are to be sold; not as a complete group, but individually.
• The group that recorded for EMI were contractually known as The Beatles; meaning all four.
• Members of The Beatles released solo recordings while still a group, and the Beatle that first did so was Harrison with Wonderwall Music, which was before the other Beatles.

--andreasegde (talk) 14:11, 18 March 2011 (UTC) (First solo Beatle recording corrected by Steelbeard1 (talk) 14:40, 18 March 2011 (UTC) )[reply]

Triangular diplomacy

• I have just been through the whole article, and have changed many instances of "The Beatles" to "them", "they", "their", "the group", or just deleted the "Big T" as it wasn't needed. As the article is called The Beatles, there is no need to have the dreaded "Big T" throughout. "The Beatles" is still mentioned when it starts a sentence, or is quoted as such. Go on, hit me with a wet fish.--andreasegde (talk) 15:45, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I applaud the diplomatic effort...but does this real solve the problem. For instance, would we need a warning to future editors "Please avoid ever mentioning the band's name, mid sentence"! Bluewave (talk) 16:27, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's a halfway house, but they don't need to be mentioned that often, as the article is called The Beatles. It's an idea from the Julia Lennon article, because it also mentions Alfred Lennon, and John. (It was impossible to keep using 'Lennon' all the time). Let's face it, there will always be a dispute about this, so a little rewriting keeps the Big Bad T from the door.

I suppose the advice could be that "Overuse of "The Beatles" in the article is repetitive, and not required."

If this isn't acceptable, then one can only presume that there is something deeper and more vicious connected with the problem. As a die-hard "Big T" advocate, I have offered an olive branch, so now we'll see if the other side are willing to accept it.--andreasegde (talk) 16:35, 18 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure avoiding the problem is the right solution. There is no local consensus, so we should be deferring to the wider consensus, which is clearly for lower case. Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, Brian Epstein, Bob Spitz, Bill Harry, Mark Lewisohn and Barry Miles all used lower case. — GabeMc (talk) 02:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of which side of this trivial dispute one is on, this proposal is a step in the right direction. The underlying problem is this: At some point we all make up our minds how some detail of language, or in this case orthography, works. In most cases the way it works is relatively obvious and so we all get mental models of language that agree with each other. But in some cases usage is not uniform (i.e. some sources use "the Beatles" and others use "The Beatles") or aspects that normally agree don't (i.e. most books use "the Beatles", but the most official name is "The Beatles" and certain types of sources prefer that). In this situation most of us do not decide that it's a complicated problem that cannot be settled either way, but instead we more or less randomly (depending e.g. on which sources we are exposed to and how important we consider prescriptive sources such as LP covers or trademarks to be) decide that one of the variants is correct and the others are just in error. See confirmation bias for why our mental theory is stable even when we learn about new counterexamples.

So long as this article has mid-sentence "The Beatles" it will always be jarring to some readers. So long as this article has mid-sentence "the Beatles" it will always be jarring to some readers. It is not our job to teach to the readers that either spelling is correct. Even if we could agree which spelling is correct, the capitalisation or otherwise of the definite article is such a trivial aspect of the topic that it probably doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article anyway, and certainly not with any weight. Therefore the right approach is to just avoid the issue to the extent possible.

This is the same idea as WP:COMMONALITY, a subsection of WP:ENGVAR. Hans Adler 08:18, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is the issue I was trying to lay before the ArbCom - there is a local consensus for capitalising the T in mid sentence; the majority of contributors (the ones who place inline citations in the text, and those who otherwise write from sources) find capitalisation to be sufficiently supported through reference to RS and wish to continue to use that style. There are a minority of contributors, and a whole lot of editors who come from the WP:MoS editing environment, who disagree. That does not invalidate the local consensus for capitalising the T. Now, please note that I am one of the few (ex these days) contributors who support the lower case t - but I do know how consensus works and I am appalled by the efforts of a few individuals to impose a consensus for a Guideline over the consensus of the editors who are continuing to build the article. I would be trying to make a case for bringing the issue of conflicting consensus to a RfC, except I doubt that the general commentary would be any less blinded than the ArbCom were that the issue is the validity of attempting to impose a guideline over article writers. I wonder if it is worth while trying, anyhoo? LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:24, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There is no local consensus. Apart from issues such as sock puppetry or canvassing, a local consensus is determined by who comments on a talk page. You can't discount editors merely because they have not contributed to the article. This is so deeply engrained into the way a wiki works that it is probably not made explicit anywhere, but that doesn't mean you can simply ignore the principle.

If it wasn't like that, we wouldn't need any guidelines at all, other than perhaps as inspiration when editors don't have an opinion. More importantly, if it wasn't like that, then what our articles on obscure fringe topics say would be entirely determined by those willing to spend a lot of time building these articles. There would be no need for noticeboards such as WP:FRINGE, because input from uninvolved editors could simply be ignored even when they all go to a fringe article's talk page and outnumber the fringers by far. Hans Adler 15:49, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Consensus is derived from agreement on the best application of policy; a local consensus may not disregard or violate policy. In this issue a majority of editors of Beatles related articles point to those WP:RS which show the band with a capitalised definitive article (noting that the most authorative references, and those most contemporary to the recording period of the group, use the capital letter), and point out that the MoS is a guideline which notes "preferred practices" and admits to there being exceptions. The majority of such contributors argue, on the basis of those RS noted, that this is one such exception. Lastly, the article was passed FA status (regardless that this was when standards were not so exact) using the capitalised T. Thus there is a standing consensus, both by application of policy and practice.

This is not invalidated by there being other editors who may point to both the consensus at WP:MoS for standardisation for the lower case t (which I accept, by the way) and to those RS - including many of the more recent publications - that use that style. What you have, in this instance, is a different interpretation of what consensus should be. That is fine. What is not is the attempted imposition of this different consensus over the existing one.

As I have said, I am prepared to formulate an RfC on whether, in this instance, the consensus at a guideline has precedence over one existing on an article (and we can throw open the question of whether having a different interpretation of consensus automatically deprecates the existing one, if you wish) or not. I would rather not, because I am sure both that many of the potential participants are really quite weary of the issue and that the RfC will likely turn into another dust up in respect of the content dispute. I suspect, however, that either an RfC or mediation may need to be considered.

In short, it is incorrect to state that the local consensus is non existant - it is being challenged, only. LessHeard vanU (talk) 17:43, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Your position is simply not tenable:

• You continue to give preferential treatment to the 'owners' of this article. Not good.
• The status quo, the FA state of the article, or any past consensus, does not factor into evaluating consensus but is something to be considered by the !voting editors. (Moreover, the status quo predates the guideline and in the last FA promotion this issue never came up as far as I can tell.)
• Once it is clear that all the recent books use one orthographic style, the fact that some reliable sources in the past used another style can still be used to argue that it is admissible in principle to use that style, but of course it cannot be used to argue that we must use that style in preference to the up-to-date one. Any reasonable admin who tries to determine consensus is obliged to dismiss such invalid arguments. You should be ashamed of yourself to present this as a valid argument.
• A guideline cannot be dismissed merely because it is only a guideline. Even policies can be broken for valid reasons. But even to break a guideline you need a valid reason, once it is clear that it applies and that it was created precisely for the kind of situation under discussion. That's what the statement about exceptions is about, obviously, and that's what WP:IAR is about. You are essentially arguing for abuse of IAR. (Maybe there is something wrong with the guideline. But the amazing weakness of the arguments for breaking it suggests that the guideline gets it exactly right. And anyway, the right thing to do when a guideline gets things wrong would be to change it, not to block its application in a simple and straightforward case.)
• An honest and reasonable admin charged with evaluating the discussions on this page has two options:
  1. Declaring that based on the fact that both sides have about the same size and one side uses only invalid arguments, the other side has consensus. It is impossible to block consensus with nothing but invalid arguments.
  2. Declaring that, although one side has much weaker arguments, they cannot be completely dismissed, and so, due to roughly equal numbers, it's a close case of no consensus. Hans Adler 20:02, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"An honest and reasonable admin..."? That would be one that supported your preference, I presume? I have pointed out where I feel both sides properly claim consensus for their interpretation. I have also attempted to show that some claims of who does and who does not have consensus may be mistaken. I am not, and have not claimed to be, declaring a decision in regard to the question of whether the t/T should be capitalised or not, but am giving my opinion (as someone who does a fair bit of dispute resolution, and has some experience of what consensus is). Same as you are, with the only difference being that I am assuming good faith that your efforts are to improve the encyclopedia. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:37, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

— GabeMc has proven that he has no wish to make any kind of progress on this. This is after I pointed out to him the numerous Big Ts in an article he took to FA (which he then changed). I suspect his motives, and will wait for other editors that want to reach any kind of consensus.--andreasegde (talk) 12:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Hans on this (Hans on - I like it!). Andreasegde’s “olive branch” is the only way that might produce a cease-fire (and he should be commended for it). Obviously not perfect, but then it’s a compromise. Anyone who isn’t prepared to give it a go is just intent on argument. Let’s move it on now.--Patthedog (talk) 13:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The assumptions of bad faith are flying thick and fast around here. Very discouraging, especially given the utter triviality of the underlying dispute. Come on people, get a sense of proportion. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 10:35, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My personal approach is to always use a person's or entity's proper name in the first reference to them in a paragraph and then to usually only use "he", "she", "it", "they" (etc) in subsequent references unless the name is required for clarity of who or what is being referred to. Afterwriting (talk) 15:12, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Triangular diplomacy II

But does anyone actually agree that the proposal stated above is acceptable? Please say yes or no, in whichever fashion you prefer, but less is more. :)

• Support. By rewriting sentences, the use of the 'Big T' could be limited, as it should be in an article that is already called The Beatles. Overuse of the name is not needed.--andreasegde (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support and applaud Andreasegde's olive branch. I also agree with LessHeardvanU's assessment that there has long been a local consensus on this (extremely minor) matter, and the article's passing a rigorous FA with the capital T is but one indication of that long-standing consensus. Also, just because people do not repeatedly come onto this talk page and say yet again, for the umpteenth time, that they support the T consensus, does not mean that they have changed their minds. Tvoz/talk 20:21, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Seems a sensible solution. Any attempt to bring some sanity round here is very welcome.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:26, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Rewriting the article to minimize the issue is a wonderful creative idea. GoingBatty (talk) 20:45, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. I agree on rewriting article to minimize the issue. Steelbeard1 (talk) 21:06, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. I can’t see any other practical solution.--Patthedog (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support for the detailed reasons I gave above. TLDR version: This article is about music, not orthography. Hans Adler 22:22, 19 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. For the simple reason that the bulk of the most reliable sources closest to the band used lower case, i.e. Lennon, McCartney, Harrison, George Martin, Geoff Emerick, Derek Taylor, Brian Epstein, Bob Spitz, Bill Harry, Mark Lewisohn and Barry Miles. If all these sources are wrong then I am happy to be in their company. — GabeMc (talk) 01:00, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. The most practical solution open to us. Thanks, Andreasegde, for taking a lead on this. Bluewave (talk) 09:08, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, per GabeMc (who forgot to mention Hunter Davies): avoiding the problem does not solve the problem, because new editors will come in. The uppercase version is attributable primarily to Apple Corps zeal about trademark and branding issues, which are not Wikipedia's concern. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 21:25, 20 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• I've been asked to vote, though I am reluctant to get any more involved in this. I think it is appropriate to minimise the use of "the/The Beatles" in the article as a general guideline to good writing. However, it is not good writing to avoid the use of "the/The Beatles" in mid sentence when it is appropriate to do so. While I understand the thinking behind the approach, I cannot support it. The article can use The Beatles or the Beatles or a mix of both (as it did when it passed as a Featured Article), and all those would be acceptable usage, but twisting the language to avoid use of the Beatles is a fudgy solution. Because there's been talk of uninvolved editors coming here and imposing MoS guidelines, and so people know my involvement - I helped take George Harrison to GA listing, and am the main contributor to that article (which uses The Beatles because at the time I thought that was the standard usage), I did the GA review on The Beatles in Hamburg, which was mainly written by Andreasegde, and listed it with The Beatles used in mid-sentence. Like others, I either didn't give the capitalisation much thought, or assumed that The Beatles was correct. When I was asked to get involved with this capitalisation issue I looked closely at the issue, and noted that the majority of reliable sources and our own house style indicated that lower case use was the appropriate way to go. And that is what I still feel. At the very least, the quotes should be presented accurately, and where they are in lower case that's how they should be presented, and where the use is The Beatles, that's how it should be presented. As the quotes will be mixing the and The, and as sources themselves sometimes mix usage, I have no objection to that. My preference would be for lower case "the" (except where quotes use otherwise), but I don't mind upper case or a mix of both. My least favourite approach is trying to avoid the use of the definite article. SilkTork *^YES! 01:47, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - not what i prefer - but got to admit its more then reasonable and the read sounds better with less "Beatles" in it.Moxy (talk) 03:43, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Sorry, the Beatles aren't special enough to disregard our manual of style. If the manual of style needs fixing, then fix it, but don't contradict without good reason. Sorry, I suppose I'm not actually commenting on the proposal at all, but the underlying issue. I feel that the proposal is a good faith attempt at a compromise, and that is a net positive. However, I don't have confidence in the long term viability of the proposal's maintainability, as this article (and others) about the band evolves. Abstain riffic (talk) 05:38, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - an eminently sensible suggestion by Andreasegde. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:26, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. We should not strain language to avoid a trivial matter of style. Also, I agree with nearly everything SilkTork has said above. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 10:46, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - While this and many other articles would benefit from a better use of pronouns, as a solution to the question of capitalization it is misguided. This method only hides the problem, and the lack of a solution, from view. It does not solve the problem. There will no doubt be instances where the use of "the Beatles" in mid-sentence will be appropriate or even unavoidable. I haven't read through the most recent version of the article but already I noticed an awkward sentence in the Song Catalogue section where it is unclear which antecedent the pronoun refers to. Piriczki (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment This is an excellent proposal to try and satisfy a majority of current and past disputants, but is unlikely to hold sway against the next pov inclined contributor. If adopted, at some time in the future there will be a three way dispute on whether the letter should be capitalised, lower case, or avoided where possible. I think we will then need a new synonym for lame. LessHeard vanU (talk) 13:46, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose ...and that was a tough decision, because I appreciate Andreasegde's olive branch. It sounds like a good idea, and it should be immediately implemented as much as possible, but only until it eventually becomes necessary to again mention the band's name instead of "them". As Silk Tork said, it is not good writing to avoid the use of "the/The Beatles" in mid sentence when it is appropriate to do so, and as Riffic said, this idea may not be maintainable. Those that voted "Support" may not have visualized actually writing that way. We all seem to agree that editors will forever be able to come up with good reasons for both "the" or "The" mid-sentence, and that this discussion is lame. Therefore, since the real world uses both "the Beatles" and "The Beatles", can we just agree to do that also? We really should agree to use both "the Beatles" in the middle of some of the article's sentences and use "The Beatles" in the middle of others. Forget about consistency. We would put a note on the discussion page saying that if there is one thing we have learned it is that consensus will never be reached on this matter and that the maintainable (and sane) decision is to avoid the issue and use both styles without worrying about it ever again. —Prhartcom (talk) 14:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Editors should look at this article, as there are now only three Big Ts in it during sentences, which are in quotations, and were printed that way in the book they came from.--andreasegde (talk) 16:30, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I've changed my mind, and I've crossed out my vote above. I wrote it before reading Andreasegde's recent edits to the article. Now that I have read a fair bit of it, I must agree it seems to be working. It doesn't read awkwardly, it reads fine. And if we fix new edits as they appear it could be maintainable. Maybe this discussion is nearly resolved? —Prhartcom (talk) 18:26, 22 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support & Comment - Back in the 1960s, for those of us who remember it (myself, and very most likely Andreasegde, Steelbeard1, Patthedog, and - if he were still editing with us today - John Cardinal; plus a few others I didn't name) the spellings of most group (yes, group, not band) names was typically shown as with a capital T, not lower-cased. About the time the Vietnam War ended in '75, society's acceptance of a lower-cased t began showing up in publications - newspapers and books written by authors in that era, etc. Most post-1975 books show a t, though when this began, and throughout its entire 1960s/early 1970s run, it was almost always shown as T, and not lower-cased. Okay, getting to the point - things change, people change, places change, and society changes with the change of time itself. Now, in this present era, the younger generation who was not there in the 1960s will read and reasearch this through books (of which are mostly published after 1975) and come to terms with that the Beatles, to them, is correct, for that's in their conscience - as it's how they see it. Now, realistically, the original way always had been The Beatles, accepted by society in the 1960s as it was, being intended to be. When the lower-cased spelling of the t began showing up around the mid-1970s, most people, like Lennon and McCartney, had no problem with this and even accepted it. So, this is the understanding the younger generation has. Now, very importantly, however, to keep things as should be when referring to this article's layout of which consisted of a major 1960s event (this article's very topic itself) in the 1960s, therefore indicating the proper right in usage of original text, albeit, The Beatles, this is then what's proper in passage to be used in recognition of what was used at the peak of [their] popularity and in general of the history of popular music. Also, after five years of working on this, Andreasegde, you truly know your history and thanks so much for all your great and wonderful hard work you've put into this! Thanks! Best, --Discographer (talk) 22:48, 23 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Brian Epstein wrote his book in 1964, and he used the lower case "t". — GabeMc (talk) 01:13, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Editors, please: We are no longer discussing the merits of 'The' or 'the', we have heard these arguments already and we have proven beyond a doubt that there will never be consensus. Instead we are now discussing whether or not substituting "The Beatles" or "the Beatles" in the middle of a sentence with "the group", "they", and other pronouns will really work as a (not perfect, but pretty good) solution. —Prhartcom (talk) 12:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But there is a consensus among the most reliable sources, the vast majority agree, lower-case mid-sentence. — GabeMc (talk) 02:28, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You have made the same point three times in this section alone, GabeMc. Stop it.--andreasegde (talk) 13:29, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Unsure – I would support using pronouns if they are appropriate but to go out of our way to avoid using "The Beatles" for the sake of avoiding an argument over capitalisation seems to be taking it too far. I really don't care that much whether "the" is capitalised or not. McLerristarr | Mclay1 07:11, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your input; and as you can above see I also was unsure; that is quite understandable. Therefore, please look at the article now. The substitution mentioned above has already been done. Then you will know whether or not it "seems" to be taking it too far, you will know if it actually is or isn't. —Prhartcom (talk) 12:10, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Compromise or no compromise, repeating the group's name over and over seems unnecessary anyway. The article is about the Beatles so, in most sentences, it will be obvious who the sentence is about. McLerristarr | Mclay1 05:10, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Especially since the NYT (note it is not "TNYT") does not capitalize the "the" in any case about Beatles, and this is rather a Guinness Book of World Records (not "The" despite its origins and original trademark) sort of debate at best. I trust this reaches consensus. Collect (talk) 15:31, 24 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Agree with Andreasegde's sensible comments. A voice of reason. SimplyAKat (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. Sadly, user DocKino does not feel it is necessary to contribute to this discussion. I think I'll put the kettle on. :))--andreasegde (talk) 10:11, 1 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: It's not nice to lie, Andreas. I have contributed extensively to the discussion here, as you well know: Talk:The_Beatles#Recent_edits. In that thread, I recognized and agreed with the consensus to reduce the number of occurrences of the band's full name, noted several cases in which the effort to do so had resulted in lowering the quality of the article in specific ways and at specific points, and explained precisely where and why I restored the full name in ten different instances. It is you who have completely failed to respond to any of those efforts to improve the article. If you ever rouse yourself to do so, I'll be happy to reply, again in detail.
• I also noted there that before the "triangular diplomacy" approach was undertaken, there were 69 instances of the band's full name being used mid-sentence in non-quoted text; as a result of your edits and mine, there are now 13 such instances, with no loss of clarity, expressive quality, or readability. I believe that result fully respects the consensus that has been arrived at here, which as many of those supporting the consensus have stated is to "minimize" the issue and "limit" the use of the "Big T," not erase every instance of the band's full name being used mid-sentence in non-quoted text (obvious overkill that has never been stated as the "proposal"). DocKino (talk) 17:12, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So that's a Support, is it?--andreasegde (talk) 07:07, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Discographer above, and per The The. Fully endorse Andreas' efforts of a solution. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:14, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. Andreasegde proposes a good compromise to minimize unneeded use of "the/The Beatles", but as SilkTork mentions, it should not be done by twisting the language to avoid it. There are valid reasons for both sides of the capitalization argument, and also for allowing either case (www.beatles.com). I'm concerned that if we don't specifically require an uppercase (or lowercase) T mid-sentence, editors will change the case back and forth citing one reason or another. CuriousEric 01:38, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the advice

• Comment: Any ideas as how to change the advice at the top of the page to something reflecting consensus, and common sense?--andreasegde (talk) 21:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it should say "Mid-sentence, per the MoS, the word "the" should in general not be capitalized in continuous prose." since that is what Wikipedia:Manual of Style (music)#Names (definite article) actually says. Piriczki (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Piriczki. — GabeMc (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This section is not here to go over that again.--andreasegde (talk) 14:26, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then what is the purpose of this section? — GabeMc (talk) 22:00, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

End of.--andreasegde (talk) 22:26, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Gunmetal Angel has sought to alter the long-standing title "After the break-up" to "Post-break-up," while making the odd suggestion that there is something less than "proper" about the former. Aside from the awkwardness, even ugliness, of the double-hyphenated "post-break-up," it's a less fitting phrase. I encourage editors to take a look at the results of a Google Books search on the phrase "after the break-up": three of the first five books are actually about The Beatles. That's more than sufficient high-quality support for the existing phrase. DocKino (talk) 04:26, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As both phrases are synonymous and equally acceptable for use in English, I don't see why sources are at all relevant. However, I agree that the double hyphenated phrase looks odd. McLerristarr | Mclay1 09:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A simple Google search for "Post-break-up" finds that it is often written as "Post-breakup".--andreasegde (talk) 10:04, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not hyphenating words ending in "up" is an American thing. "Break-up", "clean-up" etc. are hyphenated in British English. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:53, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Michael Cragg?--andreasegde (talk) 15:21, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, these things are never universal, are they? He does use follow-up, although followup looks very strange. McLerristarr | Mclay1 16:14, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Why have I never heard of this?

"Three days after their relationship began, John Lennon and Yoko Ono appeared in public for the first time, for the lunchtime launch party and press conference for Apple Tailoring (Civil and Theatrical), the second boutique from Apple Corps. It took place at Club Dell'Aretusa, at 107 King's Road, Chelsea, London."--andreasegde (talk) 09:05, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

So, I would like to place these templates on the bottoms of the following pages:

The Beatles The Beatles discography

Some users seem to object. I put time and effort into these and I would appreciate it being rewarded. I think it's pretty obvious why these are an improvement. It improves navigation.Hoops gza (talk) 04:51, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hoops - I suggest that you change the album links within the {{Please Please Me}} template so they don't appear to be redlinks. Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 16:26, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changed the font. Thanks.Hoops gza (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, as far as I can tell, only the following artists have articles for every song in their catalogue:

• The Beatles
• Pink Floyd
• Led Zeppelin

And then the following artists have articles for every song on SOME of their albums:

• U2
• The Beach Boys
• The Rolling Stones

Please add to this if there are other artists in this group.Hoops gza (talk) 17:03, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how that's relevant to this article. McLerristarr | Mclay1 16:16, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To what are you referring?Hoops gza (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This section was started to ask for advice from the Support editors above that agreed to a consensus.--andreasegde (talk) 23:22, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We could change it to "Consensus is to avoid using "the/The Beatles" as much as possible".... or maybe we could add this header:

--Pawnkingthree (talk) 20:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What about: "This article is about The Beatles, so avoid overuse of the name, as it is not needed."? --andreasegde (talk) 21:53, 15 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The two edits shown here bring back a grammatical error that has appeared in the article before. In addition to reverting, I'll explain the issue here in hopes that it does not recur. In the construction "South Africa also banned airplay of Beatles records", Beatles is not a noun but an attributive--that is, it is used as an adjective--and thus does not take a possessive apostrophe. If we wanted to go with the noun, "South Africa also banned airplay of The Beatles' records" is also correct. But "South Africa also banned airplay of Beatles' records" is simply wrong.

Part of the confusion surely derives from the fact that the noun in question is plural, which complicates the possessive. Consider the following analogous construction:

• We listened to The Clash's records (correct)
• We listened to Clash records (correct)
• We listened to Clash's records (wrong)

A proper (though unnecessary) alteration of the sort was, in fact, made in this edit, where the attributive Times was changed to the possessive noun The Times'. DocKino (talk) 21:23, 19 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It is called The Times, and it should be one of The Times' journalists said, or a journalist from The Times said. It's simples, no?--andreasegde (talk) 19:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, as I pointed out before, the examples of The New York Times and The New Yorker, or in this case The Times are correct but the reasoning is incorrect and doesn't necessarily apply to the name of group. The definite article "The" is included because it is part of a title of a book, magazine, newspaper or other literary or artistic work, not because it is a proper noun. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Use of "The" mid-sentence. Piriczki (talk) 23:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with DocKino and I have had this argument with an editor before. Nouns can be used as adjectives. Just because Beatles is being used as an adjective and it ends in an S does not mean it is missing an apostrophe. McLerristarr | Mclay1 03:59, 21 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Have you guys ever picked your feet in Poughkeepsie?--andreasegde (talk) 20:33, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Starting with Penny Lane and Strawberry Fields Forever (or possibly even before), the Beatles began producing music videos for each of at least many of their songs. Not including material from live performances or songs used in the soundtracks of the movies, there remains quite a list of standalone music videos recorded by the Beatles which don't even seem to have been enumerated in any attempt at a comprehensive list, let alone made available, for example on a DVD collection. One sees bits and pieces of some few of them in the Anthology series, and perhaps also in some other previous documentaries, but other than the Free As A Bird video released as part of the Anthology series none have been released, even as bootleg collections. The Beatles were often as creative in their visual presentations as in their music and yet this whole significant chunck of their creative output goes unreleased. Unfortunately I don't have enough information to provide this section myself, but for more intense Beatle scholars with more access to the materials than myself, perhaps at least a list of the videos could be compiled. Once compiled, I really think there needs to be added a section about it in the main article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.190.254.108 (talk) 01:34, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

They have been released as bootlegs (e.g. I found this site within a few seconds of searching with Google) GoingBatty (talk) 01:49, 22 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't groups like Wings, Traveling Wilburys, Plastic Ono Band, Ringo Starr's All-Starr Band, and The Dirty Mac be listed under this heading? Evanh2008, Super Genius (User page) (talk) 10:31, 27 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]