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This arises from a discussion at Talk:2011#Computer games. It seems several users agree with me that having a section for computer and video games set in the year in question is silly, arbitrary, and completely inconsistent with the guidelines covering the other sections as there is nothing inherently internationally notable about what year a video game is set in. I therefore suggest that such sections be eliminated form RY articles. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC) Addendum The more I think about it the whole "in fiction" section has the same problem. Why do these items get a free pass to being mentioned here just because they specified a year that part or all of them are set in? I propose we eliminate such sections entirely. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:33, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot imagine a paper encyclopaedia having such a section. The only reason it's here is that we are using computers as the medium, and so attract a sizable proportion of computer game aficionados. Given the effort we put into keeping other trivial info out of this article, the presence of this section is inexplicable. HiLo48 (talk) 00:25, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, and somewhat agree with the OP's addendum. I would say video games are as valid a form of fiction as movies or television. I tend to think a paper encyclopedia would not have any "in fiction" section at all, except maybe an "in literature" section. And in that case they would be biased toward their medium (books). -- Ken_g6 (factors | composites) 00:37, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

To be mentioned in the other sections it must be proven that an item has or will have international notability. All we require for this section is that subject say "this thing I made up is supposed to happen in 2011." What is internationally notable, or even notable at all, about that? In the future, when our readers look back at this article to try and understand what 2011 was all about, will it help that understanding at all for them to know that an episode of Future Shock or an installment of the Call of Duty video game franchise were based on completely fictionalized ideas of what 2011 might be like? I don't think so. Beeblebrox (talk) 20:33, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I lean toward inclusion, provided that we have an article about the book, movie, or video game, and the setting isn't incidental. (For example, in FlashForward or Flashforward, the date of the endpoints of the "event" should be included, but not incidental dates of intermediate facts.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:44, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

May I ask why? Or more specifically, in what way will this information help our readers understand what 2011 was like? Since it is fiction I don't see how it has a place in an article about reality, and as I've mentioned it also terribly inconsistent with the criterion to be included in any other section. Could you also explain why an exemption to these high standards should be granted to works of fiction? Beeblebrox (talk) 21:11, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's not helpful in understanding what 2011 was like; it may be helpful in understanding how 2011 was perceived. (There seems to be some support for the assertion that a book or film released in YYYY referring to YYYY or YYYY+1 may not be notable. I realize this kills my example.)

And I lean toward inclusion on this matter, because, unlike the real world, whether a fictional work is internationally notable is more a matter of taste than of verifiable fact. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 21:50, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes it's pretty clear, though, like with the book 1984. Wrad (talk) 22:11, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I should have said, "... is often more a matter of taste ...". :-) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• What about splitting it off into separate articles? As it's so far agreed that these entries don't add to the reader's understanding of the year in question, perhaps a sub-article, for example 2011 in fiction would be more appropriate, as the subject of the RY article is the reality of 2011? Beeblebrox (talk) 23:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Yes please. HiLo48 (talk) 23:36, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I would also add, in response to the remark about 1984, that Orwell simply reversed 1948, the year he wrote book, as 1984 was "the distant future" at that time, similar to how in 1968 Clarke chose 2001 as a far off time for 2001: A Space Odyssey, another novel whose predictions are not reflected in the reality of the year it was named for. 1984 is certainly an important (and great) work of fiction, but it has little to do with the real year 1984. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:45, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure. People can experience a "year" in fiction just as much as they can in real life, and that affects how they view the actual year. People often compare years in popular fiction to the actual state of things in the actual year. Their experiences with reading about a fictional year are just as "real" as the experience of the year itself, in the same sense that watching a play is a real experience, or walking through a park. Whether or not the author's choice for the year was haphazard, the reader does not know, so it has no or little effect on that experience. Wrad (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it/they should be deleted, in most cases it is only incidental trivia. If people want to create Year in fiction sub-articles that would solve the problem without too much backlash. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 00:58, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think inclusion of this sort of thing should only be done in very special cases, such as 1984, 2001: A Space Odyssey, or the 2012 craze--ideas about the future that have really taken hold on people's imaginations. This usually won't be the case for a video game. Wrad (talk) 01:01, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 03:51, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Careful! Give them an inch and they'll take a mile, unless we set up some rules. For instance, how about fiction with the year named in the title and which was at least nominated for a national or international award (for the work itself) can go in the main year article? -- Ken_g6 (factors | composites) 06:12, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's exactly why I think splitting it off is a good idea. If we agree that the fact that a work of fiction is set in a particular year is almost never notable enough to be mentioned in the main article on that year, it makes sense to simply spin off that content into a sub-article and then it is easy to be generous about including anything that can be verified to be set in that year. That should satisfy both concerns rather neatly. I mean really, I loved 2001: A space Odyssey, both the book and the movie, but as far as accurately depicting the year 2001, not even close. The only piece of advanced technology in the story that we have actually developed in the intervening 43 years is the picture phone. Beeblebrox (talk) 06:57, 23 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose we do have precedent, in the split of 2012 in fiction from 2012 and 2012 phenomenon. It's OK with me to split them off, once consensus is obtained here and WP:RY is edited to reflect that consensus. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:45, 25 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Well, it has been a few weeks with no new comments here, I think we have a sufficient consensus to change the wording. Right now it says "However, films, games, etc. that are set in a given year—regardless of their release dates, provided that the release and setting are not so close in time as to coincide only trivially—may be added to the "In fiction" section of the main article for that year." I'm thinking we change that to "Films, games, etc. that are set in a given year—regardless of their release dates, provided that the release and setting are not so close in time as to coincide only trivially—should be added to a separate "In fiction" article for that year." And then of course we should start spinning off said articles, I guess beginning with this year and working backwards. Beeblebrox (talk) 01:56, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me! DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 02:39, 16 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. Well, the change in policy is done, haven't done the actual work of spinning the articles off yet. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:05, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This article tells me that Recent years articles should contain a section called "Major religious holidays". In 2010 and 2011 the section has become "Major holidays", i.e. no "religious". That seems to have allowed days like New Years Day and Chinese New Year to sneak in. I know the former isn't a religious holiday, and I don't think the latter is either. Any problems with me cleaning this up?

For anyone who thinks this discussion seems familiar, I did raise it, in a different way because I was unaware of this guideline, at Talk:2011#American usage of Holiday - Wrong for other readers. It would still be nice if we could take into account the fact that the word "holiday" is used very differently inside and outside the USA. HiLo48 (talk) 01:55, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There's something I'm not quite getting here. I understand that Americans use "holiday" to mean any day of celebration or commemoration of an event, and most other English speakers use it to mean "a vacation" but what I'm not clear on is what word they do use to indicate such a day if it is not "holiday." Beeblebrox (talk) 02:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

By looking at the Holiday#Australia.2C_Canada.2C_UK it seems it is often "public holiday." Why not use that as speakers of both American and British English can easily understand what it means. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:04, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Where I am, in Australia, Mothers Day is just Mothers Day. Valentines Day is just Valentines Day. Neither is ever described as a holiday. There is no simple, single descriptor for such days. We don't seem to need one. And having a very explicit, single meaning for holiday - a day when I don't have to go to work - is fairly useful. HiLo48 (talk) 02:08, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My concept of what constitutes a major holiday, for the purposes of Year articles, is a day which is designated a holiday (i.e. a day on which banks and most businesses are closed) in a multitude of countries. Days which are commemorated but not designated holidays as such (e.g. Valentines Day, Mothers Day) and national holidays specific to a single country (e.g. Thanksgiving) or holidays which are celebrated by specific religious groups but not designated national holidays (e.g. Beltane), should not count. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 02:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine as a point of future discussion, but right now we have two articles in a long series which breach the guidelines about how they should be structured. If no-one has any objections in the next day or so, I will correct these articles to follow those guidelines. HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think I get where you are going with this now. Valentine's Day is a good example of something that Americans would define as a holiday, yet we do not close the banks, schools, etc for it, just exchange cards and gifts with your significant other or drink too much if you don't have one. Columbus Day is a bit stickier. It has been observed in The U.S. along with parts of Central and South America and Spain, but due to changes in the public perception of Columbus over recent decades it has fallen out of favor or been renamed in many of those places, includng several U.S. states with larger populations of Indigenous peoples. Federal institutions in the U.S.such as the post office are still closed, but banks, schools, local government offices, etc are mostly open. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The vast majority of editing activity on Recent years articles is the innocent addition and correct removal of content which doesn't satisfy these guidelines.

THIS is the article containing the guidelines. They are not mentioned in the actual year articles. Hence the innocent addition of masses of inappropriate content. The editors making those additions are clearly unlikely to look here. Why don't we distil these guidelines to a simple sentence or two and, with a reference to this article, add that content to the beginning of every Recent year article?

What if we crafted an edit notice instead of actually posting the criteria in the article. Beeblebrox (talk) 08:07, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, that sounds good. Are you an expert in such matters? (I guess I'm hinting that you could be they guy to do it ;-) ) HiLo48 (talk) 08:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the best solution to me. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 08:58, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

For whatever reason only admins can create them. There is a formal request process, but we can skip that since I'm here already. We just need some proposed text, I'll knock something together, once it is created anyone can edit it. Beeblebrox (talk) 09:54, 11 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I knocked something together, you can see it at Template:Editnotices/Page/2011. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:22, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The section that tends to disallow changes in government doesn't appear to explain why or give an example of what is correct and what is not. Could there be an additional sentence or two explaining why this is not allowed, since I am scratching my head as to why some very notable elections or leadership changes are not represented in the articles.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:37, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"National elections are not usually included unless they represent a significant change in the country". This seems fairly straightforward to me. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:03, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

But thats a bit ambiguous. What does it mean by "significant"? It may seem straightforward to you, but perhaps some examples would help alleviate some of the mystery.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:10, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I assume it left slightly vague so that there is discussion of possible exemptions. For instance, if an expected, scheduled election led to a very unusual result, like a woman being the head of state of an Arab country or a Chinese man being elected Prime Minister of France, that would probably merit an exemption. Another white guy being elected to head a European country, not a momentous event. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit conflict) Changing from Labour to Conservative or Democrat to Republican is not significant, such changes happen regularly in most democracies. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:19, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit Conflict) Or a black man being elected President of the United States, like has already been removed.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

He is not the first "black" man to be elected the leader of a country. Being elected the leader of the United States is notable in the United States, not the rest of the world. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:34, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not everyone is going to agree on what "significant" means. That's why we depend on consensus. The case for significance has to be made for each addition. I personally disagree strongly with Derby on Obama. That inauguration was of incredible international significance. News sources constantly talked about how he was the first black leader of a G8 nation. That is a big deal. Wrad (talk) 21:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I too can concede on the British reversion, but the Obama one does give me pause. Thats why I asked for clarification here.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not American, but I also believe that Obama should be there. Electing a black President in America was inconceivable for most of my life. But a change of government at an election between Labor and Liberal in my country, Australia, is not globally significant. HiLo48 (talk) 21:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

True. try to look at it as if it happened in another of the G8. Say the child of Senegalese immigrants became President of France, or a Chechen became President of Russia? Don't you think the rest of the world would sit up and take notice of that? Beeblebrox (talk) 22:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Doubtless. Wrad (talk) 22:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not forget everytime the first of all the other "races" (for want of a better term although it's not actually valid), sexual identities (female, transsexual, transgender) and sexual persuasions (homosexual, bisexual, asexual) get elected in every country in the world either. Or at least, just the USA. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:49, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The gender thing is now a small issue in most countries, including the USA. Obviously female VPs are acceptable, so it's just a natural progression to have a female President one day. The barrier is gone. As it did in Australia as soon as females became state Premiers. Openly gay folk and the like may be a different issue in the USA, but even that's more possible now. Obama's election weakened the barriers for everyone who is a member of a group of whom it has been said in the past past that a member could never be President. So, Obama should be there, but very few elected others. HiLo48 (talk) 23:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

As it happens the only reason I had to, reluctantly, waste my time removing all (or at least most) of the elections from all years going back to 1999 was due to the argument here that Julia Gillard become Prime Minister of Australia was important. I fully expected that a discussion such as the one here would eventuate, as I expected that my hard-line objectivity wouldn't find much support. One can but try. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 23:11, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Politics and hard-line objectivity rarely go together. ;-) (I was amused yesterday to hear Jeff Kennett calling for a statue of Joan Kirner to be erected in Melbourne's western suburbs. But Jeff has never been exactly mainstream) HiLo48 (talk) 23:18, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

My position would be that the election/appointment/however they get into office of world leaders would be included. Its not like it happens every day. I was surprised to see the first revision of the UK PM, but I was floored when I noticed that Obama's inauguration was removed and then re-removed.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:28, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Who do you mean by "world leaders"? The leaders of all nations, or just those nations that are powerful? Where would you draw the line? Would everyone else agree? HiLo48 (talk) 23:32, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Any that would be considered a leader of a nation recognized by at least, oh lets say, the UN.--Jojhutton (talk) 23:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Which narrows it down to a couple of hundred, of whom how many are democracies? And how many elections are held each year? 40? 50? And they're all equally internationally important? There's a reason that articles such as Electoral calendar 2011 (along with all the other Year in Topic articles) were created! DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 00:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. I'm not as "hard-line" on this as Derby..., but I don't think it's sensible to include every nation's leader elected in the normal way. HiLo48 (talk) 00:47, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit Conflict)Well I don't think that 40-50 extra edits a year on this page is gonna slow it down, if its that many. As we recently learned, some presidents stay in office 30 years or more. So the question becomes then, if they all can't play then no one can play, or as my teacher use to say, if you don't have enough gum for everyone in class thenyou shouldn't be chewing gum in class.--Jojhutton (talk) 00:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)"[reply]

If we were to include all the non-notable elections then we would theoretically also have to include all the non-notable sports events, entertainment events (Oscars, Grammys, Eurovision etc) and any number of other equally non-notable entries that recent years were porne to overloaded with. These guidelines were designed specifically to prevent that. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 01:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

We include those where enough reliable sources, preferably outside the country the country where it happened, tell us that it is a notable event. Obama's election fits. Not many others do. HiLo48 (talk) 00:54, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then put Obama back in. Should we go through each and every single ruler for every single country for what Derby said he removed all the way back to 1989?--Jojhutton (talk) 00:59, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes we should. By the end of this I will be seeing Julia Gillard back in the 2010 article. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 01:05, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This is getting a bit silly. The decision has to be made on a case by case basis. Slippery slope arguments are not appropriate, and neither are arguments that "x was included, so y should be too." Take it one at a time. The burden of proof for significance lies with the person who wants to add the info. Wrad (talk) 01:09, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That whats being said. Lets go through each one and make sure that it was removed correctly.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:15, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I realize that's what's being said, but what's being said is, frankly, quite silly and isn't solving anything. People are just becoming more entrenched. This absolutely must be done on a case by case basis, with evidence presented for each individual case. There is not requirement that if one thing changes, all else must change. Wrad (talk) 01:20, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Before any edits are made, get all PMs / Presidents articles checked out. there is a list on the 2010 article talk page (1999-2010) of leaders elected etc. Talk:2010 that means adding nothing yet, without a full investigation to all leaders. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 01:16, 20 February 2011 (UTC) OK, but Obamas already back in, but thats probably the biggest no-brainer of them all.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:18, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Right, because a President of the USA should be judged by the color of (his) skin, (not) by the content of (his) character? DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 01:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted that edit, But DONT WORRY...It will be added right back in once this investigation is over. If anything, that will be the first added back into the article once the investigation ceases. Visit the talk page of 2010, to see all the leaders I have found over 1999-2010 that have now been removed by Derby. It is under the section titled "Prime Minister Julia Gillard". -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 01:23, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No investigation is needed to put Obama back in. His significance has nothing to do with Australian PMs. Again, this has to be done on a case by case basis. If you want somebody put in, present the evidence on the relevant year article and establish a consensus, then change it. We don't need any mass judgments here. Wrad (talk) 01:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, I think we had enough consensus here for that.--Jojhutton (talk) 01:26, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Not going to keep some elections, and forget others. Case by Case, then we add the info. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 01:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but it's highly inappropriate for you to hijack Obama until you get what you want. See WP:POINT. Would someone else please restore the Obama info? I'm tired of playing games here. Wrad (talk) 01:42, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I wasnt the one who suggested to review all elections. Until they are all reviewed, don't add them in. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 01:57, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Melbourne, if you read carefully, the person who agrees with you that all PMs should be reviewed also agrees with me that you were wrong to remove Obama. Wrad (talk) 02:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll state again, Just incase you may of forgotten: "Don't add elections etc. If it comes under the investigation, until the investigation is finished" - Pres. Barack Obama, comes under that investigation. I don't know why you can't wait? At the end of the day i'll make sure that Barack Obama is mentioned there, even if it's the last thing I do. Please be patient. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 02:48, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting yourself doesn't do anything to increase your supposed authority to make such a sweeping decision against a consensus on this page. You have established yourself as judge, jury and executioner here. No such investigation was agreed on. Wrad (talk) 03:02, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Another tip MelbourneStar1. You can make a lot of enemies here by acting as if you own an article. Do please click on that link. It's a goodie. HiLo48 (talk) 03:08, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Oh Trust me On this one Hilo48...I have read that 100 times. There are most definately many here who act as if they own the article. Though I do think you aswell as others may be a little over due, so maybe you should take a read of it. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 03:14, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Comment – "National elections are not usually included unless they represent a significant change in the country." The election of President Obama does not represent a significant change in the country and therefore should not be included in the recent year article. In addition, can we move the bickering to individual talk pages and focus on the issue at hand. The banter adds nothing to the original discussion and only serves to cloud the issue. My best to all. ttonyb (talk) 05:27, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously someone has not read the above discussion...-- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 05:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Obviously that "someone" is you. (To paraphrase a commercial.) Although I think Tony generally believes in trimming links too much, there is no consensus to change WP:RY to include elections notable only because of the gender or race of the elected. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 09:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe if you bothered to take a read of this discussion, you would know that there have been many different elections added that have rare this or first that... Actually maybe you should, as a suggestion, read the discussion (instead of being bold and presumtious)...then have your say. No, better yet read this: National elections are not usually included unless they represent a significant change in the country (e.g., a nation's first election). Some elections gain international significance for other reasons and this can be demonstrated through several international news sources...I may rush sometimes, but where does it bar out the usage...of well any election past or present? The use of the word "Usually" is an interesting word as a synonm for the word is "Sometimes". You dont need to change the policy, as it basically shows us that it does include rare this first that, because in some countries that is a significant change. Thank You.-- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 10:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Usually" is not a synonym for "sometimes". In the context of Wikipedia, "usually" means "unless a separate justification can be provided for a contrary statement". And I don't think the first female PM would be significant except in an Islamic country. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 10:56, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well that is your opinion. Mine still stands. -- MelbourneStar☆ (talk) 11:01, 20 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]