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Shouldn't the topic read: mass rape of German woman by Soviet Red Army **soldiers**? Or the entire article changed to "mass rape of German woman during WWII"? --JanBarkmann (talk) 16:53, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's metonymy. Phoenix of9 17:38, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Technically yes, but a bad one. A town is conquered by an army, but a soldier is shot by another solder, not by the army. --JanBarkmann (talk) 19:33, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The mass rape was very prevalent tho, practically by the entire occupying army. Phoenix of9 20:51, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Using the term Soviet Red Army unfairly blames the Soviet Union as many of the Soldiers were in fact not from the Soviet Union. Furthermore there was no official document ordering the rapes. This is a good example of German propaganda found on many of the wiki articles --American Dood —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.94.131 (talk) 13:08, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry but that's nonsense. Soviet Red Army is neutral, just as the title (and generally applied) War crimes of the Wehrmacht or Japanese war crimes. More specific war crimes in the Korean War or Vietnam War by the US army, US (army) troops/forces/units is applied, just as members/troops/divisions is mostly applied on the articles of massacres by the Wehrmacht/Waffen-SS (both not in titles). But it's not 'specific' here because it was so prevalent and not limited to certain troops/divisions/... unlike small-scale massacres. And what's this nonsense about Red Army soldiers who were not from the Soviet Union? It's not about Soviet citizenship... --Semilanceata 05:29, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

2 million is only an upper estimation!

• ^ Elizabeth Heineman. The Hour of the Woman: Memories of Germany's "Crisis Years" and West German National Identity. The American Historical Review, Vol. 101, No. 2 (Apr., 1996), pp. 354-395. Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/2170395

"Estimates of the numbers of rapes at the hands of Soviet soldiers range widely, from the tens of thousands to 2 million. Whatever the precise numbers, rape was a common" `a5b (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• ^ Kuwert, P., & Freyberger, H. (2007). The unspoken secret: Sexual violence in World War II. International Psychogeriatrics, 19(4), 782-784. doi:10.1017/S1041610207005376.

I have no access to the letter, but Kuwert says me in private mail about the article: ". It has to be underlinend that the counts are just estimations, as nobody counted each rape in the colapsing Germany of 1945." `a5b (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• ^ a b http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/worldwars/wwtwo/berlin_01.shtml

"it is estimated that up to two million German women were raped during the last six months of World War Two, around 100,000 of them in Berlin. " `a5b (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• ^ Hanna Schissler The Miracle Years: A Cultural History of West Germany, 1949-1968 [1]

"estimates ot the numbers of Soviet rapes range widely, from tens of thousands to two million." (this is the same phrase as in 'Elizabeth Heineman'. `a5b (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• ^ http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106687768

here is the " Historians estimate that at least 2 million German women were raped at the end of World War II. ", but they say ' Historians believe ' and links to Kuwert 'Dr. Phillip Kuwert, a senior physician'. This is not a science article or a historic book, but a variant of "Yellow journalism". `a5b (talk) 10:21, 21 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:RSUE, English Wikipedia prefers English-language sources to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material. The sources used here are Russian websites. They mainly appear to be excerpts from "The Great War Slandered - 2: Nothing for Us to Repent!". Which is hardly a neutral or reliable source. It's main author is considered controversial and revisionist. WP:RSUE states: English-language sources should be used in preference to non-English ones, except where no English source of equal quality can be found that contains the relevant material. There are multiple English academic published sources already in the article that contain all relevant information to the article, if the things in these Russian sources were truly notable and not fringe, they would be in them. Finally, WP:RSUE requires that if a non-English source is used, a translation should be provided, preferably by a published reliable source. Therefore I'm removing the sources and content for these reasons. Lt.Specht (talk) 02:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:NPOV all points of view should be presented. The existing English sources, especially in the way they are currently cited, present only one point of view. So the Russian sources are needed to present the Russian point of view. There are no English equivalent for this part of the story, so per WP:RSUE we can use the Russian sources.

>"The Great War Slandered - 2: Nothing for Us to Repent!". Which is hardly a neutral or reliable source.

Why do you think it is less neutral or reliable source compared to English sources? Each side has its point of view, the whole matter is quite controversial, and we can hardly decide which sources are really "neutral or reliable", so we should stick to presenting all points of view.

>It's main author is considered controversial and revisionist.

By whom?In Russia, for example, the situation is exactly the opposite, Beevor and his like are considered revisionists. If we can't decide who is "revisionist" we should present both points of view.

>Finally, WP:RSUE requires that if a non-English source is used, a translation should be provided, preferably by a published reliable source.

Well, this is a sound argument at last. I'll put the deleted Russian part of the story here to the talk section, and hope someone will provide translation in future, or I'll make it myself.

Per WP:NPOV all points of view should be presented. This isn't an accurate summary of the rule. WP:NPOV. Dogweather (talk) 22:10, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It requires that all majority views and significant minority views published by reliable sources be presented fairly, in a disinterested tone, and in rough proportion to their prevalence within the source material. - from WP:NPOV. In our case we clearly have two points of view, and both are MAJOR points, though the version presented in the current English sources is obviously more known to the Anglophone world. And non-representing of a closely relevant point of view and the counterarguments of Russia and other post-Soviet states is a direct violation of WP:NPOV. Greyhood (talk) 23:57, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You say "clearly", but that's just it: it's not clear to most of us. Citation, please, in a language we can read.Dogweather (talk) 06:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'll not have time to provie you with citations right now. You can always use online translation, by the way.

>it's not clear to most of us.

It is clear from the simple logic of the situation. 1) There are allegations of Soviet Army in war crimes, that are pushed into public attention by historians like Beevor. ==> 2) There, naturally, is disagreement with these allegations in the post-Soviet states, most notably in Russia, which is a legal successor of the Soviet Union. ==> 3) The Russian point of view is obviously relevant and must be presented, since without it the article turns into one-sided POV pushing. Greyhood (talk) 08:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

By applying logic we would be doing original research, which we can't do. We simply find and cite reliable sources that directly support the assertion in the text. Dogweather (talk) 18:34, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

These claims are widely disputed in Russia. ^[1][2].^{[3] [4] [5]} Critics argue that the numbers are based on faulty methodology and questionable sources. It is argued that although there cases of excesses and heavy-handed command, the Red Army as a whole treated the population of the former Reich with respect and loyalty. It is also emphasized that the Soviet military leadership discouraged crimes against civilians and took measures to punish offenders. ^[6] A war veteran recalled: "The question of seeking revenge on the Nazis dropped out -- it's not the traditions of our people to take reprisals against women, children, and elderly...The attitude of Soviet soldiers to the German population, could be called neutral. Nobody, at least from out regiment, mistreated people."^[7]

And I add the NPOV tag until all points of view are represented. Greyhood (talk) 10:31, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide English-language RS's? Dogweather (talk) 22:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Tons of Wikipedia articles contain non-English sources. It is incorrect to say that the inclusion of non-English sources violates the rules. There are five source cited to support the assertion that the allegations are disputed in Russia. Your claim that the sources are fringe is contrary to the facts.

Please explain why Sander and Johr's propaganda piece "Befreier und Befreite" is included in this article when you claim that Wikipedia does not permit non-English sources? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.183.42.72 (talk) 23:00, 25 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure who you're replying to. English sources are of course preferred, but not mandatory. And for something like this, if there's a substantial opposing viewpoint, then there should be English-language sources that report it. If not, that indicates that maybe there's isn't a serious or substantial opposing view. Dogweather (talk) 00:32, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that a revisionist description of the events would constitute a fringe view and, reliable English source or not, does not merit inclusion. - Schrandit (talk) 00:48, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. It looks like we have plenty of high quality sources that represent an overwhelming consensus. I do think, though, that if we get a RS for the assertion, "These claims are widely disputed in Russia", then that would be a valuable piece of info to add. (To wit: that the claims are disputed in Russia, not that the claims are under doubt or are false, per se.) Dogweather (talk) 00:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There aren't to many English sources which discuss Dyukov, in my opinion because of the notability and nature of his works. This article from The Baltic Times states in part: A new book by a Russian historian claims Estonia's recollection of the 1941 forced deportations to Siberia is too harsh. In The Myth About Genocide, revisionist historian Alexander Dyukov paints a picture of Soviet repressions as little worse than a family picnic...Dyukov admits that certain repressions did take place but says the way they are depicted in Estonia has been exaggerated, initially for anti-Soviet and later for anti-Russian reasons..."If Baltic nationalists had not cooperated with German special services and had not prepared for acts of diversion, there would have been no need for deportation. It was the activity of nationalists and of Nazi agents that provoked the deportations - and Estonian historians prefer to keep silent about it."...Eesti Ekspress points out that at the time of the first deportations, the war with Germany had not yet begun. At that time, the Soviet Union was itself collaborating with Germany by means of the notorious Molotov-Ribbentrop 'pact of steel'. Despite that fact, Dykov describes the June 1941 deportations as if they had taken place in a frontline situation... There are multiple Russian sources which discuss him, Irina Pavlova, a historian of the Soviet system under Lenin and Stalin, has commented that Dyukov promotes a new jailer's concept of Soviet history based on his blind faith to the documents provided by the FSB ("Crisis guides"). For reasons such as these, I believe Dyukov's claims should be kept out of the article unless there are reliable English sources to accompany them. Lt.Specht (talk) 03:11, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I looked at the source; couldn't find relevance to this article. So to summarize: if you find a significant minority viewpoint (not WP:FRINGE) in either an English source, or a high quality foreign language source, you'll get support from me, and a lot of other people for the content. Dogweather (talk) 06:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Russian Wiki article on Dyukov has many positive assessments of him. Natalia Laktionova of the Academy of Sciences says that "Young Russian historian Dyukov refutes... many of the political and historical myths promoted by Estonian historians." Ilya Altman of the Holocaust Center says that Dyukov "wrote two very important articles that relate to the role of the UPA in the destruction of the Jews in Ukraine".Mendkovich, cited in the article, is with the Center for Contemporary Afghan Studies. As that article shows, there is nothing fringe about him. O.A. Rzheshevsky, also cited in this article, is a professor and President of the Russian Association of World War II Historians. Russian newspaper Svobodnaya Pressa is very much a reliable source considering that the NPR and Guardian are cited in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.211.115 (talk) 03:40, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide a quote of what exactly is being cited from Svobodnaya Pressa? Lt.Specht (talk) 03:56, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"[S. Pressa is a reliable source because they cite NPR & Guardian..." I disagree. If NPR and Guardian cited them, then that would be evidence of reliability. Dogweather (talk) 06:36, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "If Baltic nationalists had not cooperated with German special services and had not prepared for acts of diversion, there would have been no need for deportation." The fact that Baltic citizens actively cooperated with Nazi (including their active role in the Holocaust) is well known. The possibility that that partially affected the decision on post-war deportations cannot be completely ruled out.--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:46, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That article deals with deportations that took place in Estonia before the outbreak of war on the Eastern Front. During which time, as the article notes, the Soviets themselves were actively cooperating with the Germans via the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact, and had themselves sought entry into the Axis, German–Soviet Axis talks. Though I don't see how this discussion relates to this article. I used the source to show that a reliable English source identifies Dyukov as a revisionist historian, In The Myth About Genocide, revisionist historian Alexander Dyukov paints a picture of Soviet repressions as little worse than a family picnic..., and that it also questions his work. Lt.Specht (talk) 22:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the anon editor who kept restoring the material. Three of the five sources used are from Dyukov, who is discussed above. One of the other sources is a review authored by O.A. Rzheshevsky of Berlin: The Downfall 1945. BBC News Online has an article which has an interview with Rzheshevsky, and discusses him and his claims, "Red Army rapists exposed", in it Rzheshevsky admits that he had only read excerpts and had not seen the book's source notes. He also makes claims such Beevor's use of phrases such as Berliners remember and the experiences of the raped German women were better suited "for pulp fiction, than scientific research." The article also features rebuttals by several notable historians to Rzheshevsky's claims, which I think is best summed up by Richard Overy, who said the Russians had never faced up to the atrocities committed by the Red Army, "Partly this is because they felt that much of it was justified vengeance against an enemy who committed much worse, and partly it was because they were writing the victors' history." I for one do not think we should be citing the review of a book Rzheshevsky has admitted to not even reading. It also seems that most historians and reliable sources view Dyukov and Rzheshevsky to be fringe and unreliable authors, even by many Russian historians, such as Irina Pavlova, as noted above. As for the Svobodnaya Pressa source, one can not really be sure as whoever cited it did not provide a translation of what exactly was being cited from it, however, I believe the BBC article which I cited covers the text that Svobodnaya Pressa was citing, "There is dispute in Russia concerning these claims.", so I will cite BBC and leave that. In addition more could be added from the BBC article, since it is a reliable source and covers Russian viewpoint on the subject. Lt.Specht (talk) 06:32, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Don't you find that the phrases like "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history" and "the Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty", as cited in this article, are indeed better suited "for pulp fiction, than scientific research", especially with the fact that there were no elaborated comparison with the other acts "of mass rape in history", and no direct data but just estimates presented for the key figures? Why should we accept such obviously fringe opinions like "the Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty" and at the same time disregard the point of view advocated by professional Russian historians? Dyukov is a well established and professional author who provides a well referenced analysis based on documents, not estimates, and that is enough to include his views here, whatever his opponents think of him. Can you give a large enough number of references that directly call Dyukov and Rzheshevsky fringe and unreliable authors, and preferably neutral references, that is those not connected with the people that advocate the points of view different from Dyukov and Rzheshevsky? Greyhood (talk) 13:53, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do. If those assertions ("greatest phenomenon...", etc.) are not supported by the cited sources, then we should add the 'cite needed' tag, and after a period of time, remove. Dogweather (talk) 18:31, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article from The Baltic Times directly calls Dyukov a revisionist historian, none directly call Rzheshevsky one, in most sources he is questioned by other historians. Lt.Specht (talk) 20:44, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, That description of Dyokov definitely caught my eye. Dogweather (talk) 21:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dyukov is just on bad terms with them in the Baltic States, as significant portion of his scientific work is dedicated to the collaboration with Nazis by the citizens of Baltic states. The Baltic Times is not a neutral and reliable source in this case. Their point of view on Dyukov may be mentioned in the articles related to the Baltic-Nazi collaboration, but it has nothing to do with the discussion here, and it is not a sound argument to consider Dyukov a revisionist historian. By the way, exactly in the same manner many Russian sources, like cited Rzheshevsky, call Beevor a revisionist.Greyhood (talk) 21:21, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Something I found interesting regarding Beevor/Rzheshevsky is a Questions and Answers section with Beevor in World War II Quarterly, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal, (Volume 5 / Number 1 / Winter 2008). In it (starting on p. 48) Beevor is interviewed by Robert von Mayer and David M. Glantz, for the need for more scholarship on the Eastern Front he talks about how the Central Archive of the Russian Ministry of Defence (TsAMO) at Podolsk have been severely limited to foreigners since 2000. He elaborates on how Rzheshevsky accused him of repeating Nazi propaganda, when "the bulk of the evidence on the subject came from Soviet sources, especially the NKVD reports in GARF (State Archive of the Russian Federation), and a wide range of reliable personal accounts." It also appears that Rzheshevsky was extremely supportive of Beevor's work until he became outraged on his book about Berlin. Seems rather foolish of Rzheshevsky to author a review denouncing Beevor's Berlin book, when he himself has admitted to not even looking or examining the book's source notes, and many of the source notes are from the GARF. Lt.Specht (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "It also appears that Rzheshevsky was extremely supportive of Beevor's work until he became outraged on his book about Berlin." Yes, according to Beevor's words. It would be interesting, however, to know what Rzheshevsky himself thinks on that account. In addition, scholars used to support point of views, not persons, so it would be correct to say that, whereas Rzheshevsky allegedly supported Beevor's views on Stalingrad, he strongly condemns Beevor's vision of the Battle of Berlin.--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BBC is not such a reliable source when it concerns foreign news and history, as it reflects a strong Anglo-American, Atlantic bias. Lt. Specht is trying to turn the section about Russian historians' disagreements with claims of mass rape into a debate between Rzheshevsky and Beevor. Many relaible sources are cited to confirm the fact that claims of mass rape put forward by the likes of Sander, Johr, Beevor, and other revisionist western works are highly contested in Russia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.230.178 (talk) 23:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to include some modern Russian opinions but I think it violates UNDUE to represent these frienge sources the way they currently are. - Schrandit (talk) 06:32, 4 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've already proven above that they're not fringe. They will be restored and attempts at censoring this article will not be tolerated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.230.178 (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You just undid my copy-editing, which re-introduced several grammatical errors and poor stylistic constructions. I Undid it. You also did not give a reason for the change. Before simply undo'ing someone's work, please discuss it here. Dogweather (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This section from the text looks like an appeal to authority: Antony Beevor describes it as the "greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", and has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone. According to Natalya Gesse, "the Russian soldiers were raping every German female from eight to eighty." E.g., ostentatiously naming the authority for the information. My questions: (1) What is Wikipedia's policy for this? (2) Are these Reliable Sources and their info is consensus view? (If so, then maybe this is simply poor style and not a larger problem.) Dogweather (talk) 18:39, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please, read the Battle of Berlin talk page. You can find a number of sources that discuss the Beevor's conclusions. With regard to Gesse, her statement cannot be treated seriously: does she mean that she is familiar with precise rape statistics in Germany, or she was a witness of all rapes committed by the Soviet military, or she had interviewed all German women? Some authors, including Bird, Grossman and Naimark believe that the rapeh statistics either does not exist or is unverifiable.--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:16, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

They seem fine and are cited by reliable sources, they are really just stating the persons research/view on the matter. If they were something like "Antony Beevor has concluded that at least 1.4 million women were raped in East Prussia, Pomerania and Silesia alone, therefore making it the greatest phenomenon of mass rape in history", then they would be poor style and need fixing. Lt.Specht (talk) 20:48, 27 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"The first case, that of the mass rape of German women at the end of World War II on the (retreating) eastern front and in the capital, Berlin, and the discussion over the meaning of these rapes, was brought to the center of renewed attention through a German documentary film and an accompanying book, BeFreier und Befreite (Liberators take liberties; Sander and Johr 1992) by German feminist filmmaker Helke Sander and historian Barbara Johr. The film itself and the critical discussion it generated in both Germany and the United States serve to illustrate the confusion that can ensue when there is no clear understanding of or consensus on how to interpret wartime rape. The film reveals the pitfalls of a certain kind of feminist analysis in which wartime rape is seen exclusively as a sexist crime, is defined as the worst kind of harm, and is isolated from the racial-political context in which it takes place."

Source Pascale R. Bos. Feminists Interpreting the Politics of Wartime Rape: Berlin, 1945; Yugoslavia, 1992-1993, Signs, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Summer, 2006), pp. 995-1025

Did Sander describe the events as "the rape of racially superior German women by racially inferior Russian soldiers"? - Schrandit (talk) 06:45, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

At least Bos states that:

"The second argument Sander presents for uniqueness is that these mass rapes were especially harmful to the German victims because they perceived the perpetrators as bestial and as racially inferior."(ibid)

--Paul Siebert (talk) 14:22, 31 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"If you believe Dyukov represents a minority viewpoint, show reliable English sources which say so."

Please stop with these arbitrary rules. There are countless articles on this site that predominantly consist of foreign language sources. The mass rape narrative is disputed and has a place in this article. It's curious why these extraordinary claims are being made about Russian history are from Anglo-American and German authors rather than experts on the subject from Russia.

• However, Aleksandr Dyukov, the head of the “Historical Memory” foundation, believes this project is another example of Russophobia.

• Aleksandr Dyukov, Historian

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.191.230.178 (talk) 04:18, 7 June 2010 (UTC)[reply] 

I agree with the fact that current wikipedia rules seem to favour English sources, especially on certain sensitive topics. I do not agree however, that Russian authors, specifically, are excluded. I think many non-English references are seen as suspect. Tempsperdue (talk) 01:08, 26 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A wave of rapes and sexual violence occurred in Central Europe in 1944–45, as the Western Allies and the Red Army battered their way into the Third Reich This sentence is incorrect-wave of sexual violance started already in 1939 when German forces raped Jewish and Polish females during Invasion of Poland. Later the rapes were continued by German forces in Soviet Union, with millions of victims. Women were also kidnapped in Nazi occupied areas of Central Europe for forced prostitution. I propose adding a background information regarding rape in WW2 to the article, so that the reader doesn't get the wrong impression that this was started by Western Allies and Red Army as it is now implied.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 22:30, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds reasonable. What concrete modifications do you propose?--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:25, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Western Allies had nothing to do with the genocide of the Red Army. If anything, there were many commanders who (rightfully) wanted to fight the Russian horde. I find it very suspicious that you consider it necessary to explain German war crimes. Why is that necessary in an article that is not about the Holocaust? What you are suggesting sounds very similar to what was said by the political extremist and genocide deniers that I have written literature on.Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am a moderator on a currently unused German History forum, which we could discuss issues onAnonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We have other articles dealing with western allied war crimes, this one pertains only to the soviets. Move to "Rape during the Soviet occupation of Germany"? - Schrandit (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also, are we lumping the former territories of Germany (i.e. East Prussia) into this article? - Schrandit (talk) 15:11, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "I find it very suspicious that you consider it necessary to explain German war crimes. Why is that necessary in an article that is not about the Holocaust?" Because Holocaust was only a part of German war crimes, and not the biggest one.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:33, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "The Western Allies had nothing to do with the genocide of the Red Army." "Genocide" is a legal term. What authoritative court made a decision that legally characterised the actions of the Red Army?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:40, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as how the court who holds the authority to made such a decision only came into being in 2002, no one. Now back to the point - this article is only talking about the Soviets, the title should reflect that. - Schrandit (talk) 18:36, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just posted an agreement with Paul about the name, but your suggestion here is also a good reason for name selection. It is possible that we could have a seperate article for Russian Genocide at the end of the war. It is important to remember that the victims were from many countries, including France and Russia.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A number of sources perform a comparative analysis of the rape (and fraternisation) issue in western and eastern occupation zones. Therefore, some analysis can be added to this article. If this article will be split onto two or more articles, that could not be done.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:09, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why? What would stop such an analysis? - Schrandit (talk) 05:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why this analysis should be stopped? The same sources that discuss Soviet (or American) rapes/fraternisation discuss also distinctions/similarities between these events. Why cannot/should not we discuss them if the sources say that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 15:06, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I said would, not should. What would prevent this analysis if there was more than one article? - Schrandit (talk) 16:00, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why such analysis would be better to split between two articles? And why did you take for granted that this article is devoted to only Soviet rapes?--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:13, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There is no reason that having more than one article encumbers analysis. - Schrandit (talk) 16:11, 15 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm planning to write a section based on what I read in the book Germany 1945. Unfortunately, I don't have the book with me at all. I'll do what I can with Google books, but it's going to be very limited. If anyone can help by adding the page numbers to the citations that would be great.Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:55, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See if its in JSTOR? - Schrandit (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The book or similar article? Thanks. I just searched for "Germany 1945" and didn't see the book. -Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:51, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The content that I add here will be taken from, or be mostly the same as the content that I add to the non fiction articles on the website Sturmkreig that I am a sysop of. The creator of the site is a personal friend, and he does not mind my use of the content on other sites that I edit. Just wanted to mention thisAnonymiss Madchen (talk) 04:26, 12 September 2010 (UTC) [reply]

It was in the public domain anyway. We just want to have a template on this or the talk page indicating that it was taken from Sturmkreig.

The copyright status of the site has changed, Sturmkreig content is now copyrighted.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 04:34, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

IMO, the neutrality tag can me removed now. Does anybody mind me to do that?--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I have found that the article is currently in favor of deniers of the Russian-Holocaust; it should not be removed.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What concretely do you mean?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:07, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lot of stuff about prior acts of genocide in Russia and stuff like that. Using the same logic as those people, the Holocaust article should include a section on bad things Jews have done, which it shouldn't. There were a few sentences, that I caught, that tried to lower the number of victims. The title is also written in the passive voice, which is not only terrible for historical writing, but also gives the impression that rape was committed significantly by the allies, defends the nation that killed 20 million people, and almost seems like some sort of closet Nazi propaganda by trying to create the impression that rape was committed by the allies.

What I really want to see other people add is information on how the Nazis consiously and indirectly assisted in the genocide as punishment for losing the war. I don't think the far right has ever considered that, and I also don't think that the far left has realized it is a fact that they can use against the Nazis. Germany 1945 had a useful amount of information on this.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 20:46, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: "defends the nation that killed 20 million people" Please, explain what do you mean?--Paul Siebert (talk) 22:43, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am still waiting for explanation of why the tag is still in the article. Which concrete statements (or other flaws) make it non-neutral?--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:15, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The current article name assigns no responsiblity to the perpatrators of genocide. This is something that is consistant with Russian Nazis and deniers of the RuSSian-Holocaust. Honestly, it almost makes it seem like some sort of Nazi attempt to imply that Americans committed rape on a notable scale. We should change the name so that it is not written in a passive voice. The closet Nazi nonsense surrounding this is almost enough to make me go on a Communist Witch Hunt for Nazis.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 18:56, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You've lost me there a bit. In any case, I plan on moving to "Rape during the Soviet occupation of Germany" for now. - Schrandit (talk) 20:45, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I felt I did a terrible job wording that, but anyway, I think your title idea is much better because it's only a one word change, and it assigns the responsibility. It's especially important because it says who the article is about.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 20:48, 12 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot agree. Of course, a major part of rapes occurred in the Soviet occupation zone (and the article tells about that clearly), however, the fact that American or French military also committed rapes is well known. As one reliable source describes that, "the difference is that the American and the British ask the girls to dinner and then go to bed with them, while the Russians do it the other way round." ( Atina Grossmann. A Question of Silence: The Rape of German Women by Occupation Soldiers. Source: October, Vol. 72, Berlin 1945: War and Rape "Liberators Take Liberties" (Spring, 1995), pp. 42-63)

In addition, faceless neutral names are usual for Wikipedia, e.g. Bombing of Berlin in World War II, or Strategic bombing during World War II (not "Anglo-American bombing").

--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:19, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So add what we know about American crimes to this article or create a new article. In the meantime, this article is specifically about Soviet crimes. Why pretend that it isn't? - Schrandit (talk) 00:58, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can extend your first proposal further: move what we know about American crimes to this article and move the rest to this article. If we have no separate article for German rapes, why do we need to have the article for Allied rapes? With regard to your second proposal (to create separate articles for Soviet and American rapes), if you think it can be done, please, provide an evidence. Burden of evidence is on you.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:32, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We do have some separate articles for well documented war crimes - the fact that we do no have enough doesn't mean that we should kill off the ones that we do have. - Schrandit (talk) 05:25, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So are you saying that this article should be for all rape during the end of the war? And that if it's about only the Russians than it should should be with the Russian war crimes article? That works.

Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:41, 13 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion here was extremely long and taking up a considerable amount of the talk page.

It has been moved here:

User_Talk:Anonymiss Madchen/Genocide Denial (Talk:Rape During the occupation of Germany)

The discussion is currently ongoing.

I think many of you are being too tolerant of the revisionists and rape-deniers who are trying desperately to absolve the Russians of raping German women on an epic scale. That said, the biography of the German fighter pilot Erich Hartmann, the highest-scoring ace of all-time (and survivor of 10 years' illegal imprisonment in a Soviet gulag after the war) provides a chilling description of just one man's recollection of how the Russian soldiers abused German women. In "The Blond Knight of Germany" (Toliver, Raymond F. and Trevor J. Constable. "The Blond Knight of Germany." 1st ed. Blue Ridge Summit: TAB Books, 1970) the authors write:

The Germans were loaded into trucks and driven away from the Pisek area. After a drive of a few miles, the convoy stopped, and Erich and his companions were ordered to get down. They were in a meadow surrounded by Russian soldiers. As the apprehensive Germans tumbled out of the trucks, the Russians immediately began separating the German women from the men. Before the Americans could drive away, they were given a glimpse of the fate to which they had unwittingly delivered German civilian women and girls, innocent of any crime save being born in Germany. The unarmed German men were lined up and a row of half-drunk Red Army soldiers swayingly covered them with rifles and machine guns. Other Russians hurled the women and the girls to the ground, and ripping the clothes from their bodies began raping them in front of their Russian comrades, the agonized Germans and the GI's standing bug-eyed with wonder in the U.S. Army trucks. The Americans seemed paralyzed by the spectacle..." (183-184)

You can read the rest courtesy of Google books here. Suffice it to say, those are the recollections of just one German pilot, albeit a successful one. Of course the perpetrators of these crimes have a disincentive to acknowledge the magnitude of their evil, but as rational, honest humans, it's important that those of us interested in protecting the truth ensure that the neutrality of this article isn't compromised by propagandists from either side.Joep01 (talk) 02:35, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Very impressive. Please, take into account, however, that (i) memoirs are a primary source, and they can be used in WP with great cautions, and (ii) neutrality requires us to complement these memoir with numerous memoirs of the victims of German rapes and murders. Whereas the Soviets mostly raped, the Nazi murdered, and, I believe, everyone knows who started first.

Re Americans. Another German memoir quotes a proverb that was common among German woman in 1945: "The Russian on you is better than the Yankee above you". As you probably understand, it referred to American bombing.--Paul Siebert (talk) 03:01, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why would neutrality require that? - Schrandit (talk) 04:21, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Because the events should not be taken out of historical context, and because the sources I read on that account (including the sources used in this article) tell that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:26, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Could you extrapolate? What was the historical context? - Schrandit (talk) 04:30, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The historical context was the WWII in Eastern Europe, and, in particular, German war crimes in Eastern Europe. I don't think additional explanations are needed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I do. I just read the whole article for the bombing of Hiroshima and I didn't find any historical context presented there. I'm sure countless other examples could be found. More importantly, I read WP:Neutrality and it mentions nothing of your notion of historical context or anything that could be interpreted as such. - Schrandit (talk) 17:53, 26 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not a source for itself, and we cannot use the comparison with other articles as a serious argument. Regarding neutrality, the policy clearly states that cherry-picking is not allowed. If some sources which are used in the article state that the rape issue should not be taken out of historical context, and explain what this context was, the article mush reflect what the source say. Note, the sources I used do not whitewash the Soviet military. However, many of them clearly state that it would be incorrect to present Germans civilians and German woman particularly solely as victims, and to make a redundant stress of the rapes. The sources also clearly state that some works devoted to the rape issue are feminist and revisionist attempts works, and that fact should also be reflected. Consequently, the article must say that. That is exactly what neutrality is.
In connection to that, I believe that the article in its present form is rather neutral and the tag should be removed.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:51, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't recall saying Wikipedia should be used as a source for itself. Comparison to other articles is very usefull to deterime precedent and probe academic consensus. I know what our revisionist Russian sources have written and I'm pretty well convinced that they fall under WP:FRINGE. - 07:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Leaving aside the bias implicit in Joep01's comment, I would just like to say that while the publisher TAB Books of Blue Ridge Summit, Pennsylvania may be useful in other areas of Wikipedia, I would not use their books in articles on controversial history. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:11, 27 September 2010 (UTC

P.S – What exactly makes you believe that this story is the authentic recollection of Erich Hartmann, and not just an unrelated incident or even fabrication included in the book under dramatic license by the authors Raymond F. Toliver, and Trevor J. Constable to ennoble their Nazi hero? In Cold War USA there were strict rules on how to write about the Soviet Union, and this book seems to follow them to the letter. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 05:26, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S – I must partly retract my last comment. This is in fact a notable incident, often quoted for the Soviet general who hanged three Red Army soldiers – we could even include a desription of it in this article. As this incident is so well known we must ask why is it only sourced to the memoirs of Erich Hartmann? Are there other primary sources for this incident? -- Petri Krohn (talk) 13:46, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In Cold War USA there were strict rules on how to write about the Soviet Union"

What are you on about? - Schrandit (talk) 07:16, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think many of you are being too tolerant of the revisionists and rape-deniers who are trying desperately to absolve the Russians of raping German women on an epic scale.

I absolutly agree.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:24, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean? Examples, please.--Paul Siebert (talk) 17:05, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can anyone provide a verified reliable source for these statements/quotes

"For the Americans and British, open rape was not as common as among the Soviet troops. The Soviets simply raped any female from eight years up and if a German man or woman killed a Russian soldier for anything, including rape, 50 Germans were killed for each incident, "

"Many a sane American family would recoil in horror if they knew how 'Our Boys' conduct themselves, with such complete callousness in human relationships over here." An army sergeant wrote "Our own Army and the British Army ... have done their share of looting and raping ... This offensive attitude among our troops is not at all general, but the percentage is large enough to have given our Army a pretty black name, and we too are considered an army of rapists."

Time Magazine is cited, but I could not confirm.

It looks like the actual source was a text by Kevin Alfred Strom (who does not look like a reliable source). --Boson (talk) 06:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Here is the content of the June 11, 1945 issue. I will have a look inside. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 15:34, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have now read through the whole June 11 issue and have located the original source for the "quote":

Note, that the article does not say the Soviets killed 50 Nazis for every Soviet killed, it does not even say they threatened to do so. All it says is that some ex-Nazi in Gemany believed that the Soviets would resort to proven Nazi tactics. Interestingly the issue also has this reference to Lidice.

The issue has one more section on Soviet-German relations:

The fist citation in the second passage ("Our Boys") is correct. It can be found in the Letters section of the November 12, 1945 issue of Time magazine. There is no reason to believe that the unknown serviceman who wrote it was writing about rape or are any other crimes. The preceding letter on the same page by another serviceman however confirms that rapes did happen. (Incidentally the same letters section is referenced in this image description: File:Anschlusstears.jpg.)

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 18:11, 27 October 2010 (UTC), updated, 21:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We shouldn't use Nazi propaganda. (Anything written by Nazis.) This is just what the deniers want. We can find anything else that will say the same things, if they are true. Also, Nazi propaganda won't include anything about Nazi "assistance" of the genocide, or the crimes against Jews and Holocaust victims.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 12:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Mass rape propaganda and Holocaust denial

The source for the "Time" quotes is this article by Kevin Alfred Strom from 1994:

• App's "Ravishing the Women of Conquered Europe"

  alternate version

Strom says his text is based on an article by Austin J. App from April 1, 1946:

• Ravishing The Women Of Conquered Europe – as published by Michael Walsh
• Ravishing The Women Of Conquered Europe – as published on Geocities

Austin J. App is best known as one of the fathers of Holocaust denial, see for example A Brief History of Holocaust Denial by Ben S. Austin.

Another source for rape quotes, used by all four of the cited web pages, is a review of Cornelius Ryan's book The Last Battle, that appeared in Time Magazine on April 1, 1966. The propagandists have however left out the following part of the quote:

-- Petri Krohn (talk) 23:17, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. – It is indicative of reliability of these revisionist sources, that they quote Time Magazine instead of the book itself. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 01:09, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, the stable version of this article is rather neutral: yes, the mass rapes did take place, and they were widely used by post-war German propaganda to present the Germans as the victims, not perpetrators of much more serious crimes. It is also correct that in some recent publications this issue has been raised again, and that in the same, as well as in other publications the authors note that this issue cannot and should not be taken out of its historical context. I propose to restore the stable version and remove the tags.--Paul Siebert (talk) 23:39, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The genocide is used by Holocaust deniers, although they themselves often understate it. They also only focus on the genocide against Germans while ignoring the crimes against German Jews, Poles, and non German Jews. Additionally, Nazis fail to mention the ways that Nazis contributed indirectly but sometimes intentionally to the genocide.

Avoid anything by the Nazis. And don't forget that they contributed to this.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 06:42, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The motives for the rapes are a separate topic, Anonymiss. As to the quotes, I'd seen part of one of them mentioned before, but I can't remember where. Either in Naimarks book the Russians in Germany, or more likely in the recent "Taken by force". In the Time you find "Sirs: . . . People who read your article will condemn the Russians for being savages and rapists but will not stop to consider the fact that our own Army and the British Army along with ours have done their share of looting and raping. . . . Germany has been picked so clean by our troops . . . that just about the only stores left with anything to sell are the hardware stores, and that is because they did not have much that the men wanted." "This offensive attitude among our troops is not at all general, but the percentage is large enough to have given our Army a pretty black name, and we too are considered an army of rapists"[2]

The Time letter is also used by at least one on-topic book luckily in Google books, and this one is untainted by any allegations, so it should be safe to use it as a source in this article. Carol Harrington Politicization of sexual violence: from abolitionism to peacekeeping[3]--Stor stark7 ^Speak 20:32, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Attempting to compare Russian genocide to British and American looting and raping is as disproportionate and minimizing as comparing the bombing of Dresden to the Holocaust.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We do not compare Russian genocide to British and American looting and raping. We discuss the rapes committed by the Soviet Red Army in a context of Allied war rapes. To speak about Russian genocide you need to provide a serious ground. Until that has been done, please stop using WP pages as a soapbox for promoting your personal views (or the views of minority of writers).--Paul Siebert (talk) 16:44, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bernard Griffin

While were at it - this quote; "The Most Reverend Bernard Griffin, British Archbishop, made a tour of Europe to study conditions there, and reported, "In Vienna alone they raped 100,000 women, not once but many times, including girls not yet in their teens, and aged women."" seems highly possible but for many a reason the suggested source is unusable. Can any one track it down from a legit place? - Schrandit (talk) 09:58, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Holocaust denier Austin J. App, in 1946, cites his source as NC Report, October 18, 1945. -- Petri Krohn (talk) 00:36, 28 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A quote

Denial is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims.

— Gregory Stanton

Correct. However, the opposite is not necessarily truth, namely, not every denial imply genocide. In addition, to imply that rapes of German woman by foreign soldiers was genocide, whereas the rapes committed by German soldiers was not is racism.--Paul Siebert (talk) 04:05, 31 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a template or something similar for a standard way of providing credit in the article for content taken from other public domain sites? Specifically from this article. http://sturmkreig.wikkii.com/wiki/Russian-Holocaust

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 04:03, 13 November 2010 (UTC) [reply]

Yes, Wikipedia is also self published, and that is why it cannot be used as a source for itself. However, despite that fact, Wikipedia is a good source for summary information and for the refs to reliable sources for further reading. With regard to the site you mentioned, it contains just a ref to the Beevor's and Bessel's books. The site itself is not peer-reviewed, and, taking into account that it seems to be written by some anonymous persons, about whom we know virtually nothing, I see no reasons why do we need to refer to this site, not to Beevor book directly. In addition, the attempt to provide credit for some dubious sites (that in actuality gives no additional information) looks an attempt to advertise it. That is unacceptable.

If you need more comments on this site, go to WP:RSN.--Paul Siebert (talk) 18:33, 13 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No longer free license.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:09, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A wave of rapes and sexual violence occurred in Central Europe in 1944–45, as the Western Allies and the Red Army battered their way into the Third Reich.

This suggests unique situation to 1944-1945 and WW2 conflict-but rapes actually first started in 1939 with German invasion of Poland, and were continued during German occupation of the territories in Central Europe.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:47, 14 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This sounds a lot like Democrat and Nazi propaganda. Based on the fact that the only source is from a single book that is dedicated entirely to American rapes, it is very likely far left propaganda attempting to make the US an enemy in every war, or even feminist propaganda. Idiots don't even realize that women in the military causes raping the enemy even more. It also sounds like the sort of book that a Nazi would write.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 16:16, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Are you seriously blaming the victims? --Habap (talk) 17:24, 30 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

How am I blaming the victims? --Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 15:24, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

With this Idiots don't even realize that women in the military causes raping the enemy even more. That's blaming the women. You are stating that they get raped because they are in the military, which is blaming the victim for the crime. --Habap (talk) 15:38, 1 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, allowing women into the military encourages the raping the enemy because men see it as "consent" when women laugh at other women being raped. Same concept as acceptability of making fun of your own race/religion/sexual orientation.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 00:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I would say, allowing men into the military encourages the raping even more... You should definitely re-consider your views, because your thinking is purely ahistorical.--Paul Siebert (talk) 02:07, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The section on Poland is a clear attempt by Nazi sympathizers to portray Poles as subhuman by making them appear to be perpetrators of the genocide. In reality, the Poles were victims of the Russians, and the information should be corrected immediately.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 00:25, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In other words, Naimark is a reliable source when he writes about the rapes committed by the Soviets and he is not a reliable sources when he writes about the Poles? In my opinion, the section is properly sourced, and it is relevant to the article. If you believe the source is not reliable, please, report to WP:RSN. If the consensus will be that it is not reliable, feel free to remove from the article all materials taken from this book.--Paul Siebert (talk) 00:57, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naimark is a reliable source but he is being misrepresented in the text. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:12, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly speaking, I didn't check the content with the source, so if you believe it has been misinterpreted, please, fix that.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:56, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have an advice for everyone here to examine carefully the userpage of Anonymiss Madchen and perhaps take some action. I see that Paul Siebert has been very kind to AM and already has adviced her to delete the inappropriate stuff, but another one has been added in more subtle form. Perhaps more users should ask Anonymiss Madchen to do this favor for the community? That would be a good starting point for further discussion. GreyHood ^Talk 01:34, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ay, that's definitely block worthy. Volunteer Marek (talk) 01:39, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I checked the source (Naimark, pp 74-75), and I found that the section's text more or less correctly reflects what the source says. In my opinion, the section should be restored, although the wording can be made softer.--Paul Siebert (talk) 05:15, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naimark is rtaher pro-German, he has obtained Verdienstkreuz 1. Klasse. Xx236 (talk) 08:27, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am a sysop on Sturmkreig, and we have a similar article to this. If I have permission from the site owner, is it alright to add content from the article to this article? Is there a particular way that I should cite content from Sturmkreig?

->Sturmkreig is at Wikkii, Wikia is no longer the host of our site.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 01:54, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As I already pointed out, this is a self-published site, and it is not a reliable source. If you have any doubts about that, go to WP:RSN. In addition, you cannot add copyrighted materials to Wikipedia if they do not satisfy WP:NFCC. The fact that you have a permission changes nothing.--Paul Siebert (talk) 01:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Self published sources are acceptable under occasional circumstances. Considering that Russian-Holocaust is well cited and uses reliable sources, there should be no reason to think that it is not suitable.

--Anonymiss Madchen (talk) 03:04, 3 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]