Just as there is a template {{IPAEng|}} there could be an {{IPAru|}} that links to here. This would be a nice place to set up procedures for transcribing Russian in a consistant manner across Wikipedia. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 15:58, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, a place to set up procedures for transcribing Russian should not be located in mainspace. Cf. Romanization of Russian and Wikipedia:Romanization of Russian.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? We're talking about IPA. Maybe Help:IPA might be a better place. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:47, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know we are talking about IPA :) I used romanization as an example of the encyclopedic article being separate from Wikipedia's guidelines. Procedures (of romanization, trascription, etc.) should not be set up in mainspace (a suggestion which I, perhaps mistakenly, derived from your original comment). Help space is, of course, another possibility. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 20:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There is no difference in pronunciation of stressed vowels in "жест" and "цель", "трава" and "палка", "пуля" and "чуть". At least any differences are absolutely incomprehensible by a native speaker (not a linguistics professional). As such, I believe there shouldn't be any difference in pronunciation charts for these sounds in general audience encyclopedia. Conversely, there are quite pronounced differences between unstressed vowels in "тяжелый" and "этап"; "дышать", "жена" and "сердце". Bottom line: the table should be fixed (not being familiar with IPA, I can't do this myself). --Dp074 (talk) 01:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Allophony usually means that speakers don't notice. Besides, vowel allophony is one of its more noticeable aspects of Russian (that and palatalization). In addition, a number of the allophones for the vowels are those that English speakers make contrasts in (the difference between [ɛ] and [e], [æ] and [ɑ]). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If speakers don't notice, the reader shouldn't either. Wikipedia is not a linguistic source, but rather targets a broad audience. I am not sure I understand your arguments about English, as this is about Russian pronunciation. To make it look like these sounds are different in Russian is definitely wrong. Can anybody offer a reasonable solution? --Dp074 (talk) 01:57, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit draconian. The transcriptions are to give English speakers (Wikipedia's target audience) a phonetic rendering of Russian pronunciation without being unnecessarily technical. If we were to transcribe phonemes only, then readers would be misled on Russian pronunciation because, for example, жена is /ʐeˈna/ phonemically but ʐɨ̞ˈna] or [ʐɨˈna]. Do you have any suggestions for reasonable solutions? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:41, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although vowel allophony is an important aspect of Russian pronunciation, which phone a phoneme will be realized as is predictable from its environment. The table should probably make clear the distinction between the relatively small number of vowel phonemes that should be used in a phonemic transcription of Russian (e.g., жест /ʒɛst/, цель /t͡sɛlʲ/, пять /pʲatʲ/, чуть /t͡ʃʲutʲ/) and the much larger number of vowel phones to be used in a phonetic transcription (e.g., жест [ʐɛst], цель [t͡selʲ], пять [pʲætʲ], чуть [t͡ɕʉtʲ]). Also, /o/ is often realized as a clearly audible [oə], which is not indicated in the current table. Furthermore, if you're going to provide such a narrow phonetic transcription for the vowels, you might also want to note that phonemically nonpalatalized (or "plain") consonants are often affirmatively velarized/pharyngealized, so that нос and нёс are phonemically /nos/ and /nʲos/, but phonetically [n̴oəs̴] and [nʲoəs̴] (or [nˠoəsˠ] and [nʲoəsˠ]), respectively. And what about the labial offglide in, e.g., вы [v̴ʷɨ]? My point is that not everyone always wants to show the fine details of Russian phonetics; sometimes, a phonemic transcription is enough, and the table as it currently stands gives the impression that Russian has a lot more phonemes than it actually does. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hizkuntzalari (talk • contribs) 11:07, 7 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Russian is transcribed phonemically, then the link should go to Russian phonology (which is where one ought to get information about Russian phonology anyway). It's true that there can be even greater specificity in the phonetic transcription, but there are practical considerations. I happen to think that it's a good balance as it is fairly specific but doesn't require any diacritics but for the superscript j (which is unavoidable). I have a suspicion that you were being sarcastic in your suggestions, though if you have some serious ones I've got open ears. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One important thing is not mentioned here, that is, how to mark stress in IPA representation of Russian words?--92.39.161.219 (talk) 21:11, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Very true. I've added it with an example. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 03:36, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I found many errors in example tables. Some of them mentioned above, in addition four top lines of unstressed vowel examples are incorrect (sounds in different words given are definitely not the same (i.e. this is the situation opposite to the aforementioned problems). Has this article undergone any professional review? What are credentials of the original contributors? --Dp074 (talk) 02:05, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you be more explicit about what the errors are? I'm pretty much the major original contributor. Although I don't speak Russian, I've done a lot of research in editing Russian phonology and almost everything here is sourced or has its basing in sources. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:18, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I gave quite specific examples above. I do not know what sources you have used, but you definitely should have double-checked them with Russian experts on the subject. I am not a trained linguist or philologist myself, but the problems with the page are obvious and amount to the inapplicability of this information. I can email you the most detailed information on the errors on this page - however I can fix not all of them myself --Dp074 (talk) 03:38, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian phonology says [u] becomes [ʊ] when unstressed. Shouldn't this be included?AlexanderKaras (talk) 07:58, 31 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have asked about this issue on a linguistic forum and they told me that since the quality of the unstressed vowel is pretty much different from the stressed one it would be better to use a distinct character for it, i.e. [ʊ] for unstressed <у>. Hellerick (talk) 15:37, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it's true that /u/ becomes [ʊ] when unstressed. I just thought it might not be a necessary detail. But if you guys think otherwise, it's not too difficult to go through articles that use {{IPA-ru}} and adjust it. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:33, 1 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

English example, right... Maybe Japanese, but sure as hell not English! Пять >> pyat, tan >> тэн - no similarity anywhere. UNLESS this is a wisecrack from the Russian anime and internet community, which refers to women/girls/females as -тян (japanese: -chan, -tan). Aadieu (talk) 19:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

пять is pronounced [pʲætʲ] and English tan is pronounced [tʰæn]. I suppose we could change the English approximation to pat, since that doesn't feature nasalization of the vowel. Convinced? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 22:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't hear in пять (pronounced as пьать) tan, bad or sad sounds. It seems to me much more similar are sounds in car, but, dove. Russian readers in Russian Wikipedia express same doubts. But Russian linguists state that tan-sound is more exact. Common people and linguists are two completely different kind of people. From Russia with loveNice big guy (talk) 15:58, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Since it's an allophone, native speakers of Russian aren't as likely to perceive the distinction. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:20, 28 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Knowing that this sound exists in the word "пять" is a good trick for Russians learn how to pronounce the sound /æ/ correctly. Hellerick (talk) 15:18, 29 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Should we be marking the palatalization of earlier consonants in clusters, or not? (i.e., should сть be [stʲ] or [sʲtʲ]) From what I can tell, this is an allophonic process, not a phonemic one, but it's comparable to final-devoicing. Some articles mark it; some do not. — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 18:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

There's a complex set of rules of when it's palatalized and when it's not. Because it's so complex, we should mark it whenever it occurs. What are some pages that don't? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:57, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm curious: what are these rules? Russian phonology doesn't seem to include them. Of the articles I've edited in the last day or so, these feature clusters with palatalization: Glasnost (both palatalized), Ptichka (spacecraft) (I wasn't aware of this process at the time), and Lyudmila Alexeyeva (I didn't palatalize the whole cluster, assuming the syllable break blocked it). Oooh, just I found the section of Russian phonology regarding this. If transcriptions should include this, perhaps we can boil that section down to include as a note on this page? I don't think I understand well enough, or I'd try it. — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 01:55, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Technically, Russian phonology doesn't break down the rules as they are laid out in Sound Pattern of Russian. I think I can whip something up to put here. Your transcription is accurate, though AFAIK syllabification incorporates a maximized onset in Russian. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 05:58, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it's late. I've started a table that incorporates these rules, though there are a few ambiguous cells:

• ^льн больница
• ^ньг деньги
• ^н before retroflexes, [ʂ ʐ], both [n] and [nʲ] appear (e.g. деньжонки 'money [dimunitive]' and Анжелика ('Angelica'))
• ^л(ь)к сколько vs. палка; сколькие vs палки (assuming these are pronounced as they are spelled)

This is more-or-less the information I've been operating under. I suppose we can assume that, for the question marked cells, palatalization is non-distinctive and not present but that's a questionable assumption given the example words I've provided. The grayed out box means that that sequence never occurs — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 08:46, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Navigating through Halle's dense and obscure wording may be difficult to the Google books previewer, so here's the relevant phonological rules (which start on page 63 for anyone interested) boiled down:

Palatalization of [r(ʲ) t(ʲ) d(ʲ) s(ʲ) z(ʲ) p(ʲ) b(ʲ) f(ʲ) v(ʲ) n(ʲ) m(ʲ)] is distinctive only before vowels other than |e| and at the end of lexical morphemes and non-final suffixes.

Before [tɕ ɕɕ], only soft [mʲ pʲ bʲ fʲ vʲ] appear. Before [ʂ ʐ] only hard coronal consonants (non-liquids) appear.

Before hard [t d n s z l r], only hard [r p b f v m t d s z n] appear

Before soft [fʲ vʲ pʲ bʲ mʲ tʲ dʲ sʲ zʲ nʲ lʲ], only soft [tʲ dʲ sʲ zʲ nʲ] appear

Before soft (non-liquid) consonants, only hard [r p b f v m k g x] appear. Exceptions:

• [xʲ] appears before [kʲ gʲ]
• soft [pʲ bʲ fʲ vʲ mʲ] may appear before [pʲ bʲ fʲ vʲ mʲ]
• before [lʲ tʲ dʲ sʲ zʲ nʲ tɕ], only [p b f v m k g x] appear

I may be missing some deductive reasoning somewhere. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 09:03, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't claim that [zʲ] before [vʲ] does not appear in any Russian word, maybe it does somewhere, but in all the examples I can remember it's pronounced [zvʲ]. Just like the name of the Russian city Tver is pronouced [tvʲerʲ]. If any book states otherwise, then the book is wrong. Hellerick (talk) 07:03, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t know which sources was used, but in standart russian pronunciation before zʲ (sʲ), v (fʲ) must be hard. For examples: зверь, звезда, сфинкс, связь, свекла and many-many others. Normal trancsription of the word зверь is given even in russian wiktionary. Tat1642 (talk) 08:53, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The source used is Sound Pattern of Russian (linked above), which is a quite old source. Perhaps the language has changed since then, but I have yet to find a more recent source that goes into such great detail about the phonetic nuances of consonant clusters in Russian. Most clusters are clearly nondistinctive in regards to palatalization, which may (along with the orthography) lead native speakers to perceive them as hard even if they're actually phonetically soft. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 16:41, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, first consonant in palatalised св and зв may be both soft and hard in Russian, but the latter pronunciation is more common nowadays. E.g., in Розенталь Д. Э., Джанджакова Е. В., Кабанова Н. П. Справочник по правописанию, произношению, литературному редактированию it's said that “в сочетаниях зв и св могут смягчаться з и с: зверь, звенеть [з’в’] и [зв’]; свет, свеча, свидетель, святой [с’в] и [св’], а также в слове змея [з’м’] и [зм’]” (italised by me), thus they may be soft, but normally are hard. — Glebchik (talk) 20:20, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

My Russian isn't up to snuff. Is your quote saying that the hard pronunciation is more common or is it saying that there's free variation between the two forms? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:22, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

In English it reads as “в) In combinations зм and св, з and с may be softened: зверь, звенеть [з’в’] and [зв’]; свет, свеча, свидетель, святой [с’в] and [св’], as well as in the word змея [з’м’] and [зм’]”. The same is said about тв and дв. To the contrary, it's said said that “н must be softened (обязательно смягчается) before soft з and s”, and “n before soft т and д are softened (смягчается)”. (§236. Произношение некоторых согласных) Thus in our case c and з just may be softened. — Glebchik (talk) 12:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't find this rule on the website of Russian phonetics, but in pronunciation samples the hard з and с are used, e. g., звездный [зв'`ознъj], звездчатка - [зв'иш'ч'`атка], сверстник [св'`ерс'н'ьк]. — Glebchik (talk) 12:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, I forgot to add a note in the comment. I added links to the IPA sound articles where applicable. Other "IPA for" languages are doing the same, and I think it's very useful and for some letters more precise than the English approximation examples. Thanks. 123.225.195.98 (talk) 09:05, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Good job. Two things:

• [ɛ] is used for both an open mid and mid vowel. The link is then too specific. If no one has a problem with this (it's not like English speakers notice the difference) then keeping the link should be fine.
• Russian [l] is technically a velarized (or dark) [ɫ], though we're using [l] because it's non-contrastive and easier to type. So I'm thinking that the link should go to velarized alveolar lateral approximant. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 16:22, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I feel I am not competent enough, so you may want to wait for other comments or just go ahead with what you think is best. From my perspective, we should use the correct sound ([ɫ]) and link it as you suggest. As for [ɛ], it sounds to me like we should have two separate rows for two separate sounds.

Also, I was thinking of creating specific IPA templates (if they are not there) for each sound, so that for example {{IPA-ɫ}} expands to something like

[[Velarized alveolar lateral approximant|{{IPA|ɫ}}]]

It could then be reused by all these "WP:IPA for X" pages more easily. What do you think? 123.222.215.125 (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I have created a parametric Template:IPAlink, which is more maintainable. I have fixed up this article accordingly, please review. Thanks. 123.218.168.102 (talk) 12:16, 12 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Even though the Russian letter <Ж> sounds like a Voiced retroflex fricative, in many dialects in major cities (especially in Moscow, St. Petersburg, etc.) it is a Voiced postalveolar fricative. Here are the features of a Voiced postalveolar fricative:

• Its manner of articulation is fricative, vvhich means it is produced by constricting air flovv through a narrovv channel at the place of articulation, causing turbulence.
• Its place of articulation is postalveolar vvhich means it is articulated vvith the tip of the tongue betvveen the alveolar ridge and the palate, but closer to the alveolar ridge than for alveolo-palatal consonants.
• Its phonation type is voiced, vvhich means the vocal cords are vibrating during the articulation.
• It is an oral consonant, vvhich means air is allovved to escape through the mouth.
• It is a central consonant, vvhich means it is produced by allovving the airstream to flovv over the middle of the tongue, rather than the sides.
• The airstream mechanism is pulmonic egressive, vvhich means it is articulated by pushing air out of the lungs and through the vocal tract, rather than from the glottis or the mouth.

This includes many features in the letter Ж. So, vvhy is the Russian letter Ж classified ONLY in the phonology category of a Voiced retroflex fricative and not also in the category of a Voiced postalveolar fricative? There is a vvebsite that allovvs native speakers from their native countries to pronounce words (letters in this case) in fluent Russian, and here is "Zhe" (transliterised as either <žɛ>/<ʒɛ>, or in the case of a Voiced retroflex fricative: <ʐɛ>):

| Forvo Ж

Here is another vvebsite, shovving all the Russian letters pronounce by Russian natives: http://listen2russian.com/lesson01/a/

Please, If it is possible to consider BOTH VVIDELY KNOVVN DIALECTS OF RUSSIAN (Both vvhich are considered official to the USSR [Soviet Union] novv knovvn as the Russian Federation.) Thank you. :D

序名三「Jyonasan」 ^Talk_Stalk 01:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

According to note 8, When /ɡ/ loses its voicing, it is also lenited.

In the standard dialect, this is only true for a handful of words as far as I know. Among them are the word <Бог> "god," pronounced [box] and the adjectives <лёгкий> "light" and <мягкий> "soft" which are pronounced [ˈlʲɵxʲkʲɪj] and [ˈmʲæxʲkʲɪj] respectively. Otherwise, it's just pronounced [k] as one would expect. AlexanderKaras (talk) 05:15, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not lenition but dissimilation before plosives, it happens only in words with -мягк-/-мягч- and -легк-/-легч-, and rarely in ногти, когти. The note 8 is not properly correct. Бог, Господь with [ɣ/x] is an ecclesiastic pronunciation, there is also no lenition, but rather a tradition.

Luboslov Yezykin (talk) 08:23, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]