This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-25. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2005-12-26. The result of the discussion was speedy keep. An archived record of this discussion can be found here.

Archives: /Archive 1

Everything has been archived. I did not have the patience to scroll through all the crap.--Tznkai 23:29, 25 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tznkai's conduct on the page is immensely puzzling. Without any prior contributions to the topic, and without discussing it with anyone, he comes in to a majorly contested topic, slaps a notice on it, begins to revert others changes, and archives the entire talk page, including currently ongoing discussions. That's simply unbelievable. Plenty of people contributed much more to the topic, and even if he believes he's more capable of bringing this topic to light than anyone else, he should still have the common courtesy to outline and discuss his proposed changes on the talk page first.

I'm therefore requesting that he remove the Major Edit notice, and instead try to talk everything over first. Flyboy Will 00:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Three things I'd like to bring up.

1. The talk page was a mess of nasty fighting. My style of dealing with contraversy like this is to trash it, stop pussy footing around, and work.
2. WP:BOLD/WP:IAR
3. I don't think I'm God, in fact, I'm not even an admin. I am thus aware I am extremly revertable so you have little to complain about unless you're taking it personally.

In otherwords, if you want to complain at me for breaking rules of ettiquette, theres always my talk page and if you feel its needed WP:AN and WP:RFC. Keep it off the article discussion pages. If theres an ongoing discussion that I archived that still needs to be effected, GO AND GET IT.--Tznkai 00:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Since ip users can't create new pages (like an AfD, for instance), I'm going to register a user, and create an AfD for this little bit of brain damage that passes for an article--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Care to explain what's so bad about it, or something constructive? -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The war on christmas? laffo, lol, I just tried to create an AfD pag, only to find it already exists--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 00:36, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I think it's absurd too, but it's a bit of absurdity that is unfortunately notable in the US media right now. Is that not true? Can you give us a more intelligent reply than "laffo, lol"? Note that the previous AfD ended up as a Speedy Keep. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Did somebody really move this to War on Christmas conspiracy theory? LOL--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 00:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• 205-188-116-72 (talk · contribs), please remember that Wikipedia talk pages are not discussion forums. Thanks. -Scm83x 00:44, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd still like to give an AfD a try--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 00:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I think that would be foolish considering the large volume of edits made to this page and the already existing AfD, which resulted in a speedy keep. If you put it up again, I am sure many of the users who have edited this page will vote keep, citing reasons similar to the first AfD. Overall, it will be a waste of bandwidth. Thanks. -Scm83x 00:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article is a waste a bandwidth, a little more won't hurt--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, now if this talk page hadn't just been archived I would already know that the last AfD was this morning--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 01:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to accept blame for the confusion, but not for the research--Tznkai 01:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand why nonnotable made up things don't get article, but notable made up things do, but I am willing to ditch the AfD--—the preceding signed comment is by User:205.188.116.72 (talk • contribs) 01:25, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Because its easy to collect facts about things that are notable. Who said what, what proof there is, etc. Its impossible to do it and verify with non notable "real" things. Like say, Me. Or you. Or billy Jo bob from way back when on the lane--Tznkai 01:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this article needs a rebuttal section to deal with this whole Christian persecution complex BS? Maybe people say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas because some of their customers are *gasp* not Christian and celebrate other holidays? Maybe the greeters at Wal-Mart say "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Christmas" because they're not Christian or they're not sure the person they're welcoming is? Maybe online stores have Holiday sections instead of Christmas sections because they're selling stuff either for other other holidays or that is non-specific to Christmas? This whole thing is ridiculous. --Cyde Weys _vote^talk 00:31, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOR WP:CITE. Go! Run! Come back with data, quotes, and hopefully a little less invective from you, and more from Those People We Cite.--Tznkai 00:40, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• The whole damn article is just about Bill O'Reilly's POV anyway, I don't think it's unfair to include perfectly valid opposing viewpoints. This whole damn thing is just so ... manufactured. --Cyde Weys _vote^talk 00:59, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Again. Whether I agree or not, and I don't feel like sharing, you need to prove that its not just your thoughts.--Tznkai 01:01, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This guy features prominently in the article, and I don't see the reason why. I can't even find a single mention of a war on Christmas on michaelmedved.com. I would really need to see some serious sources before I can agree with Gibson and O'Reilley labeled as merely advancing a previously existing campaign. Flyboy Will 00:42, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't see the point. Union Square being the most liberal place in the states is something I would object to as well. (see most college towns, and WPNOR. Furthermore, it leaves the reader to wonder at why its relevant, which is not obvious, but to point it out would be spoonfeeding the POV that War on Christmas is bullshit, putting us in a lovley catch-22.--Tznkai 00:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I used Xmas because I am lazy.--Tznkai 00:47, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

That's good many do it just to take Christ out of Christmas. Chooserr 00:50, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that very much. Ever hear of Hanlon's razor? A variant would be: never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by laziness. -GTBacchus^(talk) 00:57, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We're about to go from amusing and off topic, to scary and off topic. Either way, WP:NOT saves the day! (Dear God, I made a Ryhme, How bad, I did a crime.)--Tznkai 01:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

User:Tznkai deleted the header image twice, and twice re-ordered the section order to his liking. Since User:Tznkai's opinion apparently prevails by default, let's try to find out why. I obviously disagree with him, and believe that

1. The Macy's Storefront image belongs at the top of the article as it clearly illustrated the topic in question, and has been added a while ago as a result of extensive discussions on the talk page.
2. The section describing the controversy is more important than the examples section. Flyboy Will 00:49, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Please remove any further use of personal commentary or supposed sniping, whether at me or at anyone else. I will field these on my talk page or through arbitration, but article discussions are not the place for them. If you agree, please remove both your comment, and this response.

1. The macy's storefront image I addressed above. It does not illustrate a War on Christmas, it illustrates a sky shot of a winter day in union square with a big ass lights work and a wreath! Appropriate for say... the Christmas article when describing the consumerism of Jolly old Xmas, but it has no obvious usefulness here. Or so I think anyway.

2. Thats entirely possible, and I don't object to it, but as the organization stands now, it makes little sense to split general claims and specific claims with a length section of "recent usage". I have no objection to moving it down further.--Tznkai 00:54, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding general versus specific claims: The reason they're separate now is that the general claims used to be in the intro. It seemed much easier to illustrate what was meant by "War on Christmas" by summarizing some general claims. See, for example, this version. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

We could collapse the general claims section entirely since the new intro includes the vast majority of it.--Tznkai 01:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Works for me. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

TZanki, you make many very good points and seem to be striving hard for neutrality. however you are doing so in a dictatorial fashion. And I'm just not sure you have the omniscience necessary to be a sufficiently benevolent dictator. The Macy's picture is indeed relevant, and a nice picture. Macy's policy is a much-discussed topic regarding Christmas traditions as well as on the specific blogs and quasi-blogs (media matters) that this article is half based on. O'Reilly has made a point of Macy's in the "war" as well as many others if you really feel the need to wade through the point. [1]. The shortcoming here is the article's explanation regarding Macy's seems to have gotten lost. keith 01:55, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Its rather impossible for me to be a dicator as I have no greater power than any of you. As for the Macy's bit, thats an excellent explanation, and once its in the article (or hell, even a sufficiently breif caption) establishing its relvance, I will withdraw my objection and help clean it up. You know, thats the Wiki Way and all.--Tznkai 03:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. Thats a good caption. I'd like to move it to the "specific claims" section but first we should have, you know. The specific claim. Anyone?--Tznkai 03:29, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well Macy's could get its own little section with all the hype about it. It's a microcosm of the subject. Things I have seen:

• Criticized for last year's "happy holidays" policy by Pat Buchannan, and Lou Dobbs (and undoubtedly praised by others).
• both criticized and praised for a this year's policy of allowing employees to use whatever greeting they choose.
• cited by O'Reilly as directly using the word "Christmas" in ads this year.
• gets flak from both sides over the prominence and number of actual uses of "Christmas" in ads (too much vs. not enough)

It's hard to find nice primary sources though since search engines get so hijacked on political topics. I just have lame secondary ones like [2] [3] [4]. keith 04:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

These are just weak secondary sources but point in interesting directions, especially when it comes to a certain POV around here that this is just a right-wing-fundamentalist-christian-foxnews theme.

• Lou Dobbs of CNN dissing the phrase "Happy Holidays" [5].
• A summary of some conservative Jewish views [6].

keith 02:21, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to just start chopping away at this, but I've some general observations: Ok, first off, two of the specific claims

• FOXNews.com branded their online store's Christmas ornaments "Holiday Ornaments", including one for the O'Reilly Factor. The naming has since been changed.

and

• The Republican National Committee posted a "Happy Holidays" message on its home page on 24 December 2005.

are not "specific claims" at all but specific examples not qualified as being part of the war on Christmas.

Second, four of the specific claims are just fraudulent accusations made by Bill O'Reilly. They should be in False accusations made by Bill O'Reilly.

With regards to O'Reilly, are there specific examples that he hasn't made up? If so, they should be included.

I guess what I am getting at is: after reading this article I am left with the question "is there concentrated and deliberate effort to secularize christmas or is it just more insane commentary from Bill O'Reilly"

Also, if someone has read John Gibsons book, maybe it would make a good starting point for the article.

--Uncle Bungle 02:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd rather introduce my eyeballs to salad forks than read that book. --Cyde Weys _vote^talk 02:34, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think O'Reilly's charges were proven false; the sources themselves were biased.--Bedford 02:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]
  • Still, that doesn't change my forks/eyeballs commitment one bit. --Cyde Weys _vote^talk 02:43, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This entire "article" has turned into one giant anti-FOX rant, please get a hold of yourselves people, the smark in this room is thick enough to cut with a pen--Ytrewqt 03:46, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to change it. You can edit almost any article on Wikipedia by just following the Edit link at the top of the page. We encourage you to be bold in updating pages, because wikis like ours develop faster when everybody edits. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. You can always preview your edits before you publish them or test them out in the sandbox. If you need additional help, check out our getting started page or ask the friendly folks at the Teahouse. --Tznkai 03:51, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Festivus plugged in the article? Other blocks in the section talk about people and organizations that allege Christmas is being coopted in some way. I don't see how Festivus is in this article's scope unless someone has alleged that its popularity is related to the war on Christmas. 24.10.196.167 04:00, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I agree 100%, Festivus is out-of-place here. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:04, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was a lot of opposition to a screenshot of The International Jew being posted there, so somebody finally found a less controversial topic to add, and a picture to place in there. I have no idea why that anti-semitic picture keeps getting removed all the time by the way. Up until the most recent Fox News debate, most of the pro-Christmas campaigns have been openly anti-semitic. Flyboy Will 04:06, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

uuuuuh, you don't think it's way out of line to make a comment like that here? this is an ACEDEMIC source, we should be keeping it as free of smark as possible--Ytrewqt 04:08, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The International Jew keeps getting removed because it seems to imply that O'Reilly and company are somehow anti-semitic, I think is the reason. Meanwhile, another image being less popular is NOT sufficient reason to include an irrelevant image, however uncontroversial. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:09, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Added the picture back with a specific disclaimer; I don't think anyone really believes Fox News is motivated by anti-semitism. Flyboy Will 04:15, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Ytrewqt, I'm no academician when it comes to Christmas controversies, but most of the ones I'm familiar with were "those jews are replacing our Christ with their cha-noo-kas". Not that it matters, I'd like to see that whole section gone since those previous campaigns have very little to do with the current one. Also, smark is not a word according to dictionary,com and wiktionary,org, so I'm not sure how the article can be kept free of it. Flyboy Will 04:23, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

PIc is there to imply this is anti-semetic, the picture has no reference or theword CHristmas at all, it is a cover. If this has nothing to do with that, then we must conclude it was added to skew the PoV. Dominick ^(TALK) 04:28, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the reason you see rascism everywhere you look, is becasue it's coming from YOU, smark off to that--Ytrewqt 04:26, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. and in the context of this article it's impossible to ever be out of line. Flyboy Will 04:24, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The Festivus campaign is a reaction against the commercialization of Christmas. It may be a stretch to equate it to the Fox theme but same goes for John Birch and Henry Ford. If you wish to narrow the article's scope those must be removed also. keith 04:11, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

No, the commercialization of Christmas and the secularization of Christmas are apparently different things. O'Reilly at least is for the commercialization of Christmas, but against its secularization. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:27, 26 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]