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::On the subject of "what next", thinking more broadly, would it be useful to reinstate "collaboration of the week"? On the project page there's a link to one, but it goes nowhere, so I take it this was something dropped in the past. See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative music/COTW]] for an example of how this can work, including a mechanism for voting to choose upcoming collaborations. It could be very productive to concentrate attention on a particular article each week. [[User:PL290|PL290]] ([[User talk:PL290|talk]]) 21:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
::On the subject of "what next", thinking more broadly, would it be useful to reinstate "collaboration of the week"? On the project page there's a link to one, but it goes nowhere, so I take it this was something dropped in the past. See [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative music/COTW]] for an example of how this can work, including a mechanism for voting to choose upcoming collaborations. It could be very productive to concentrate attention on a particular article each week. [[User:PL290|PL290]] ([[User talk:PL290|talk]]) 21:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
:::Um... we have [[WP:TBCOTM]]. [[User:Dendodge|<em style="color:blue">Den</em><em style="color:red">dodge</em>]] <sub>[[User talk:Dendodge|T]]</sub>\<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Dendodge|C]]</sup> 23:15, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
{{Wikipedia:WikiProject The Beatles/COTM}}


== Lewisohn Recording Sessions reference ==
== Lewisohn Recording Sessions reference ==

Revision as of 23:15, 5 November 2009

Featured articleThe Beatles is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do so.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on June 18, 2004.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
May 30, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
August 29, 2006Featured article reviewDemoted
August 29, 2006Good article nomineeListed
February 5, 2007Good article reassessmentKept
April 26, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
June 9, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
November 16, 2008Peer reviewReviewed
June 3, 2009Good article reassessmentKept
September 26, 2009Featured article candidateNot promoted
November 3, 2009Featured article candidatePromoted
Current status: Featured article

Template:VA

not one of the most; the most

{{editsemiprotected}} As common knowledge and categorical fact, it should more accurately read:

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music.

This distinction corrects the inaccuracy of comparing The Beatles commercial success as equivilant to any other band.

Please change:

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became one of the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed bands in the history of popular music.

to

The Beatles were a rock and pop group formed in Liverpool, England in 1960 who became the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music.


 Not done: Welcome and thanks for wanting to improve this article. That sort of change requires a reliable source to back up the claim. Celestra (talk) 13:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you name a more commercially successful and critically acclaimed band? --Pawnkingthree (talk) 16:18, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While "critical acclaim" can be difficult to measure, it would seem to me that commercial success would be a matter of objective fact. ARE they the most commercially successful band? If so, the article should say so. Carlo (talk) 18:28, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Still need a reliable source... (John User:Jwy talk) 20:37, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I personally believe that the Beatles were the most commercially successful band of all time. But I would have a high bar set of expectations on allowing that statement. Even if you could find it in, say, Rolling Stone, I would want a more general recognition of it. It's just very, very difficult to say that anything is "the most" anything without stirring up all kinds of ruckus. As it is, the current version is a significant improvement over what it looked like just a couple of months ago, where the Beatles' greatness was not even mentioned in the first paragraph. But if you can find multiple, solid, sources, I'd be open to possibly changing that from "one of" to "the". Good luck! Unschool 00:08, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The BBC is quoting Wikipedia.--andreasegde (talk) 17:12, 21 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was just about to change the lead to reflect that the Beatles are the most commercially successful and critically acclaimed band in the history of popular music, but then I realized that this may not be true simply because they haven't been touring stadiums for decades like the Rolling Stones have. Those tours have garnered the Rolling Stones a heck of a lot of commercial success. I don't know if it makes up for the Beatles large advantage in record sales or not. It's also difficult to measure critical acclaim. They had their share of bad reviews. The New York Times famously panned Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band. Magical Mystery Tour also received a lot of negative press. It may be better to leave the lead at "one of," although I agree that it doesn't seem to go far enough. Perhaps we can say that they've sold more records than any other band in the history of popular music? That seems pretty well established. Clashwho (talk) 18:25, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Beatles were one of the most sucessful bands in history as far as record selling statistics is concerned, but not the most successful. This is too broad a title to award one band, unless of course there is an overwhealming amount of evidence that supports this claim. Still, the title is extrememely vague. Maybe make it more specific? The Beatles Fan (talk) 22:58, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]


The Beatles have more number one singles, and albums then anybody. They have sold more albums then anybody by far. They have more singles in the top 10 more then any other band. They always top "best bands" or whatever of all time lists. "YEsterday" is the most covered song of all time, by far. And when they were touring, they sold out baseball stadiums and football stadiums years before the rolling stones could do anything like that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.28.185 (talk) 23:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beatles record sales

Who has altered the info about the record sales, changing it to read that the Beatles sold "between 600 million and 1 billion records". Is this just a cosmic coincidence that this change has been made at the same time as the ridiuculous claims by some in this website that Michael Jackson has now sold "750 million" records. Isn't it amazing that his (Jackson's) sales, which were listed at 250 million before he died, have now magically increased by 500 million? In any event, according to the Guiness Book of Records, which is always quoted on this website as a solid source, the Beatles record sales passed 1 billion in 1985. Now the revisionists have altered the numbers, quoting some obscure magazine article, to magically reduce the Beatles sales to 600 million. Who oversees and permits this garbage? Put the article back to the way it was and leave well enough alone, or does the person who edited the article know more than Guiness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.61.189.14 (talk) 19:49, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I see EMI have updated their site (still dated 2005) to remove the sales figures that were being used for the "one billion" cite. Citation details of Guinness/other reliable source for "one billion" anyone? (Assuming that's forthcoming, does anyone think we need to say "between 600 million and 1 billion"?) PL290 (talk) 22:11, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a recent article from Billboard giving numbers and charts showing the group's sales since Nielsen Soundscan started tracking sales in the U.S. in 1991. [1] Darwin's Bulldog (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The material in the Lead on sales figures has now been substantially changed by this edit. IMO it's potentially an improvement but I suspect some of it may have to go if it remains unsourced. Also I notice it no longer gives the UK stats. PL290 (talk) 12:49, 8 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've pruned and formatted it somewhat, added a cite, and reinstated the UK bit. Re. "1 billion sales", it's now three weeks and no one's found a source, so it looks as though it will have to go. PL290 (talk) 17:44, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe the 1 billion figure comes from Guinness World Records. Previous editions always had it in; I don't know if they still do. But I think they were only repeating what EMI had estimated.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 22:05, 9 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe they've stopped saying it because EMI have stopped saying it. (I couldn't see it in a copy of the 2010 edition of Guinness World Records I came across the other day.) I've now removed it from the article. I considered reinstating this "600 million" cite that used to be in there, but to me it doesn't seem like a good idea, because (a) there's evidently dissent about the worldwide unit sales figure, and at least some indication that it might be a billion (previous EMI source), so why state a dubious figure that might anyway be way too low, and (b) the source is not that strong or clear: it's just an "about" footnote saying what Apple Records is in a Rock Band news article. I propose we leave it out unless/until the true figure from a WP:RS emerges. PL290 (talk) 07:51, 10 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Long and Winding Lead

It's been suggested that the Lead is far too long. The obvious reaction is, well, there's a lot to say. But I've been thinking the same recently, and actually I think the middle para may be trying to say too much (spoiled by too many "overdubs", perhaps?). The Lead should summarize the article but that doesn't mean it has to tell a short story of the entire history like it's currently doing. I'm going to have a think about it and will probably make some edits to try and make the main points without it getting so long. PL290 (talk) 07:49, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think all of the info in the lead should be there, but maybe the wording could be tightened up. And this may be the best section heading I've seen. Deserted Cities (talk) 16:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
:) By now you're looking at the shortened version but I agree it's still too much. I've now chopped out some further unsourced figures and the excessive Rolling Stone mentions. The key figures already demonstrate the band's success without all that. PL290 (talk) 16:50, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, this was way too long. Deserted Cities (talk) 16:55, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Paragraphs?

It's like reading a telephone book.--andreasegde (talk) 10:19, 13 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sorry, my bad. Someone rightly pointed out that we'd let the article become characterized by the dreaded "stubby paragraphs" but I think some recent changes I made took it to the other extreme and made it too dense. It's a fine balance. I went through this morning and added half a dozen or so para breaks so hopefully that helps. PL290 (talk) 11:55, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cites / References

The References section should list authors in alpha sequence. For each author, the sequence is based on the year of publication. That sequence helps readers who are referring to abbreviated citations that include the author's surname and year of publication. For authors, like Harry, who have two or more books published in the same year, I believe the convention is to add an alpha character to the year:

  • Harry, Bill (2000a). The Beatles Encyclopedia: Revised and Updated. London: Virgin Publishing. ISBN 978-0-7535-0481-9.
  • Harry, Bill (2000b). The John Lennon Encyclopedia. London: Virgin Publishing. ISBN 0-7355-0404-9. {{cite book}}: Check |isbn= value: checksum (help)
  • Harry, Bill (2002). The Paul McCartney Encyclopedia. Virgin Books. ISBN 0-7535-0716-1.
  • Harry, Bill (2003). The George Harrison Encyclopedia. Virgin Books Ltd. ISBN 0-7535-0822-2.

Then, in the associated cites, use the year with the alpha when necessary:

Harry (2000a), p. 67.
Harry (2000b), p. 107.
Harry (2003), p. 3

There are other ways to do this—they vary based on the citation style being used—but this is one accepted way and none that I know of use the style this page has now where the title is included in the citation.

I would have made these changes myself, but the article changes every 5 seconds and it's difficult to get a word in edgewise. — John Cardinal (talk) 20:38, 14 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This suggestion makes sense to me—there are indeed various citation styles, and there doesn't seem to be a WP guideline on the aspect in question, but this is a recognized style so let's use it. I've gone ahead and made the change. PL290 (talk) 07:44, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good. Regarding citation columns, see Template:Reflist#Browser_support_for_columns. — John Cardinal (talk) 13:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks, I'll take a look. PL290 (talk) 13:10, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Years active

A while ago, I proposed changing the dates of The Beatles activity as a band to 1960-1970, 1994-1996. This way it would include the dates of Anthology, in which they recorded and released new music.

Some are opposed to this idea, because the dates of the Beatles' activity is almost "sacred", but the first two years (1960 and 61) are included and these are years before the Beatles became the band they are today.

When any other band reforms and releases new music, it is considered a reunion. There is no doubt that The Beatles did just that. Not only did the three surviving members utilize archival music from John, but they recorded and released two new songs under the name of "The Beatles" which were promoted as new songs.

I ask that you as the Wikipedia community reconsider the dates given for time active. I firmly believe that the reunion dates shouldb e included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by CDaly (talk • contribs) 19:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per previous consensus after much discussion, and references to The Beatles' own views on this; I see no reason to resurrect this carcase of a debate because no new material is being brought to it. Rodhullandemu 19:13, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Anthology was a post-breakup documentary project by ex-members. There was no second breakup in 1996. PL290 (talk) 19:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Lennon recorded the songs in the1970s, and they were used between 1994-1996. This kind of juggling could mean The Beatles activity as a band was from 1960 to 1996. The partnership was legally dissolved in 1970. So said the judge, as Maxwell held the gavel above his head.--andreasegde (talk) 23:21, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - as per the above. A possible compromise might be something like Led Zeppelin has:

1960-1970
(Anthology: 1994-1996)

(John User:Jwy talk) 23:30, 18 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yesterday, today and forever:

Officially: The Beatles 1962-1970

You can read this information on all encyclopedias

(Wikipedia it's what? An encyclopedia or an revisionist site controlled by the Mafia???)

--Roujan (talk) 13:11, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This would be great:

1960-1970 (Anthology: 1994-1996) —Preceding unsigned comment added by CDaly (talk • contribs) 15:40, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beatles Record Sales

This subject should not be the topic of any controversy. The Guiness Book of World Records, since the 1986 edition (in other words, for some 23 years), has listed the Beatles worldwide record sales as exceeding 1 billion since 1985. The fact that it is not in the 2009 edition of Guiness means nothing. That edition doesn't mention their 20 number one singles in the USA, or their domination of the record charts in 1964. That doesn't mean that those facts have changed. If one looks at the 2008 Guiness book, it talks about the Red Hot Chili Peppers as having 'x' number of number one singles on the "modern Billboard chart". It appears that Guiness is appealing to a younger audience by featuring material about newer artists. That is fine, but, as I said earlier, it doesn't change the facts. Look at the heading 'Beatles record sales' in this very article. It still quotes the 1 billion figure. I'm just trying to understand the reason for someone altering the website to remove a reference to a fact that hasn't changed since 1985, with no valid factual foundation for such a change. If one has any doubts, then write to Guiness and ask them if anything has changed. So, unless and until whomever altered the website has clear and convincing evidence to the contrary, then the number should be restored. Exercise a bit of common sense. There could be a hundred reasons why EMI doesn't have it on their website now. What the person who changed the article (who is it, by the way, and on what authourity?) would have us believe is that EMI is now saying this: "Gee, everybody, we told the Guiness Book of Records people back in 1985 that the Beatles worlwide record sales exceeded 1 billion, but now, 24 years later, we discovered that we made a mistake and the sales are really only 600 million. Sorry about that." Please! Put the number back the way it was and leave well enough alone, and spare us the revisionist history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.61.189.14 (talk) 19:19, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good topic

I think that this article may be part of a potentially Good topic consisting of the group and its members. Does anyone else agree?--Edge3 (talk) 03:09, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

External link to concert database

Would a database of The Beatles' concert performances be worthy of an external link - e.g. www.songkick.com/artists/417271-beatles? As I work for Songkick I can't add it myself (and the last thing I want to be is a self-promoting corporate shill) but I'm curious to hear what the community thinks (which is why I'm asking the same question across quite a few talk pages). I suspect it may qualify under point #3 of the ELYES policy, but I'm far from certain. As precedents, both Shirley Manson and Glastonbury Festival have similar links added by contributors. Michaelorland (talk) 10:28, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sadly no, imo: point #3 of WP:ELYES relates to "accurate material". If it was a complete list of Beatles concerts, published by a reliable source, then I think it would be a good candidate for an external link. But it's not complete ("See full gigography (981 past concerts)"???) and it fails point #4 of WP:ELMAYBE, "Sites which fail to meet criteria for reliable sources yet still contain information about the subject of the article from knowledgeable sources" because it's editable by users ("add an entry" link) so the sources are not known to be knowledgeable. PL290 (talk) 11:58, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
We've centalized the disscution about songkick.com at the External_links/Noticeboard, See this discussion. Feel free to comment on this link suitability there. thanks--Hu12 (talk) 19:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tense? and Awards

"The Beatles were a rock band..." - is this the accurate tense? "The Beatles was a rock band". The Beatles also describes four guys, but it IS one band - singular.TheHYPO (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've had this same argument before, TheHYPO, and naught came of it. BTW, it's not British English to say "were" for a singular entity, but some people get confused with the rare exceptions like, "The police were here", and "The team were here". It's just lazy. Oh well...--andreasegde (talk) 16:31, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, why is there no section (or subarticle) on awards? They won the academy award for Let It Be according to the article, and they are categorized as Grammy winners, so there must be awards to speak of, but that important recognition is missing from the wiki article... TheHYPO (talk) 07:56, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On your first point, "were" is correct because the article is written in British English. Regarding awards, that's a very good point. They should be gathered in an "Awards" section or suchlike, somewhere after the history. I'll look at adding that later today unless someone beats me to it. PL290 (talk) 08:14, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello friend I don't know how much The Beatles won Awards all over the world, but here a small list

UK

15 Ivor Novello Awards:

March 3, 1964 : 5 Awards

July 13, 1965 : 5 Awards

July 12, 1966 : 3 Awards

March 25, 1967 : 2 Awards

And on March 23, 1964 The Beatles receive 2 awards from the Duke of Edinburgh.

You can find all this information here. [[2]]

I tried to verify all these informations on the official site ( Ivor Novello).[[3]]...but I have not found a historic...But these informations are real, you can find it on Beatles' Books...(it's easy to verify).

4 Brit Awards. [[4]]

- 1977 : < Outstanding Contribution >

- 1977 : Won Brit Award category Best British Group

- 1977 : Won Brit Award category Best British Album for "Sgt Pepper's Loneley Heart Club Band"

- 1983 : Won Brit Award category Outstanding Contribution

- 1996 : 1 Q Awards : Best Reissue/Compilation The Beatles - "Anthology" [[5]]

Japan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Gold_Disc_Award

- 1988 : 1 award

- 1994 : 1 award

- 2001 : 2 awards : Artist Of The Year et Pop Album Of The Year : The Beatles '1'. [[6]]

- 2004 : 2 awards : Rock Album of the Year : LET IT BE...NAKED et Music Video of the Year : THE BEATLES ANTHOLOGY. [[7]]

Germany

[[8]]

6 <Bravo Otto>

- 1965 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1966 : Goldener Bravo Otto

- 1967 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1968 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1969 : Silberner Bravo Otto

- 1970 : Goldener Bravo Otto

- 1965 : 2 Grammy Awards (Best New Artist und A Hard Day’s Night)

- 1967 : 2 Grammy Awards (Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band)

- 1970 : 1 Oscar for the film < Let It Be > in the category of < Best Original Score >

- 1996 : 1 Grammy Award (Best Music Video The Beatles Anthology)

- 1997 : 2 Grammy Awards (Free As A Bird)

- 2008 : 2 Grammy Awards (LOVE)


USA

[[9]] and [[10]]

- 1 TRUSTEES AWARD : Awarded: 1972.

- 14 GRAMMY Hall Of Fame Award.

- 17 Grammy Awards

- 1 Rock 'n' Roll Hall of Fame

- 1 National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences Presidents' Award

- 1 The Beatles' Academy Awards

- 3 Grammys (26/2/97) < The Beatles won Grammys tonight for Best Pop Performance By a Duo or Group, Best Music Video: Short Form, both for "Free As a Bird" (the song and video, respectively) and Best Music Video: Long Form, for "The Beatles Anthology" video set, all three categories they were nominated in.>

--Roujan (talk) 15:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've added an Awards section but I think a new List article along the lines of List_of_awards_received_by_Paul_McCartney would be the appropriate place for all the detail. The Grammy Awards table I added is already probably too much for this article. Let's summarize the awards here in narrative form. PL290 (talk) 16:09, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok....but seriously, i think it's impossible to count all the awards won by the Beatles. (If you count all the awards like for example awards given by the magazines.) ( I corrected the link concerning : <4 Brit Awards> )

--Roujan (talk) 21:13, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've now created a stub article List of awards received by The Beatles for that level of detail. I've summarized the main ones in the Awards section of this article but if people think more need including then please add them. PL290 (talk) 21:29, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello...Ok i can give information on The Beatles, but seriously for me it's impossible to write article because my English is too poor. ( and I do not want you laughing at me ...hahaha)

So, if you want i can only give you information...are you agree?

--Roujan (talk) 23:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Despite A Career Of Only 8 Years - 1962/1970 - The Beatles Became The Best-Selling In The History Of The Twentieth Century.

[[11]]

November 9, 2008 in Monte-Carlo : The 20th Annual World Music Awards.

Ringo Starr received at the 2008 WMAs a Diamond Award on behalf of legendary group, The Beatles, for selling more records than any other recording-artists in the history of the music industry.

--Roujan (talk) 13:58, 22 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]


It was ten years, but thanks a lot for the link. That should shut up the people who question the validity of their success. :) --andreasegde (talk) 16:26, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello my friend

Firstly : Excuse me for my basic English (i'm a French boy)

Concerning the duration of the Beatles' career, you write: < It was ten years >...so i suppose you consider 1960-1970...Why 1960?...I suppose it's because John, Paul and George chose the name < Beatles > in 1960.

Is it for this reason?

If yes, you can also say a lot of another things: Example

1 - The Beatles : It was 12 years...(1958-1970)

Oh yeah, John, Paul and George played together for the first time in 1958.

But another person can say 8 years 1962- 1970, because Ringo was incorporated in 1962 (and without Ringo it's not the Beatles).

Like you see, we have already three hypotheses: But why in 1973, E.M.I released two double Complilation entitled: < The Beatles 1962-1966 > and < The Beatles 1967-1970 >

Simply because they released the first record of the Beatles in 1962 and the last in 1970.

So i think it's very important to be precise and make the difference between the professional career and the rest.

The professional career of the Beatles, it's : 1962-1970.

The career of the Beatles, or if you prefer the active career it's another thing. (Even the fans of the Beatles do not agree. (remember the three hypotheses at the beginning of my post)

--Roujan (talk) 22:18, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beatles : Monuments, Statues

Usa [[12]]

Fab Four sculpture makes a giant impact on the Texan skyline August

Mongolia [[13]]

Mongolia To Erect Monument To The Beatles

Russia [[14]]

Beatles Monument to be Officially Open in Yekaterinburg

[[15]]

Beatles Monument to Appear in Samara

Poland [[16]]

Street in Poland named after The Beatles

Scotland [[17]]

Plaque commemorates early Beatles’ gig

Peru [[18]]

John Lennon : Beloved in Peru too

Cuba [[19]]

Once-shunned Lennon now feted in communist Cuba

Italy [[20]]

Beatles Museum

--Roujan (talk) 10:40, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reference style

It's been suggested at FAC that the article could use a different style for references. As we all know, there are numerous citation styles, and not just one acceptable one, but the one suggested appears to me to be very neat and I'm quite attracted by the idea of using it here. It will take a bit of work to make the change, but first I want to see if there are any objections in principle to this switch. Please see Reference style in the FAC discussion. I suggest we establish here on the article talk page whether there are any issues or objections so please fire away with any thoughts below. PL290 (talk) 18:30, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like it (the Harvard style) and may be able to help convert should things head that way. (John User:Jwy talk) 19:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am OK with using the Harvard template though I am not a big advocate. On the positive side, they help keep citations consistent and they create links between the Notes section and the References section. On the negative side, they clutter up the article with templates that aren't as easy to read as the short-format text, and the link between the Notes section and the References section isn't that important: the average reader can figure it out in short order. Also, on a personal note, the Harvard output style isn't my favorite.
I am surprised that the FAC comments include BS like the ref naming inconsistency. When I edit, I try to fix things like that, but come on! Readers don't see that stuff and if there is no name conflict, the article works properly. It' snot a battle worth fighting and my personal preference is to make them consistent anyway, but I think FAC reviewers should ease up on the trivia. — John Cardinal (talk) 19:49, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As you say though, when you edit, you try to fix things like that. The goal of FAC (or any review process) is not just assessment but improvement; I personally have no objection whatsoever to making every possible improvement to an article, however small, while there remains anything that can be improved. Let's be grateful to reviewers for spending the time to identify possible improvements and log them on the review page. PL290 (talk) 20:51, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Grateful? In general, sure, but I still think REF element names are irrelevant to an FAC review. When mentioned in the context of the review they have a "change it or fail the review" threat--intended or not--that places undue weight on something that has no influence on the visible content of the page. — John Cardinal (talk) 21:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that could happen but in this case I feel there was no hint of any such threat. Anyway, if you still feel differently, I respect your opinion and per your edit summary, let's agree to disagree. PL290 (talk) 21:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I brought this up at FAC. These are not egregious issues— that is, I would not fail the article for FA —but simply ways to make the referencing a bit cleaner. The article does not use parenthetical (Harvard) style, nor am I advocating such a change. The article uses a mix of standard and shortened footnotes, and I find this non-aesthetic. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I agree about the mix of short and long footnotes, and I've fixed all the "cite book" cases. I was working on the ref naming issue when User:DocKino started making copyedits, which caused edit conflicts, and he/she refused to let me finish. It's very hard to make systematic fixes like that while other people are editing and so I give up. I leave it to DocKino to finish the job. — John Cardinal (talk) 06:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for starting that; I hope the other issue is resolving itself as I have a lot of respect for both parties and was sorry to see that develop (partly out of misunderstandings by both, I feel).
Re. your observation above, "On the negative side, they clutter up the article with templates that aren't as easy to read as the short-format text", don't forget, this will be (more than?) offset by the removal of all the "clutter" that is work definitions. That's one of the things I like about the suggested approach. As there's support so far, I'll start to play with things in my sandbox and perhaps create the new References section ready to copy in as the first pass if this proposal continues to be unopposed; we can then replace the cites a few at a time in further passes. PL290 (talk) 10:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What a ignorance

After hearing "Strawberry Fields Forever", Beach Boys leader Brian Wilson abandoned all attempts to compete with the band.

This is a myth!!! Smile started recording in may of 1966. The problems began well before, and was being aborted well before that Sgt. Peppers relization.... Wrong and liar this information. Wikipedia ia a serious encyclopedia! I think I will report this. (Mago266 (talk) 04:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]

By no means a "liar", this information. However, I've rephrased it to be even more precise...and, perhaps, more poignant. If you still think this is all a myth, I suggest you spend some time with the sources: [21], [22]. DocKino (talk) 05:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing and paraphrasing

To create an excellent article, it's important to be able to read sources carefully, distill the significant information, and convey that information clearly and concisely. The idea that the description of Brian Wilson as "creatively ambitious" is not well supported could only come from someone who is not familiar with this basic, important process. Here are some relevant phrases concerning Wilson from just one of the cited sources, the BBC article:

  • "musical genius"
  • "instilled [with] a great sense of competitiveness"
  • "continued pushing his own boundaries both physical and mental"
  • "Together with session musicians, [Wilson and his collaborator, Van Dyke Parks] worked on a concept album mixing doo-wop, jazz, choral music, and the use of bizarre instruments including whistles and animal sounds. The recording techniques involved revolutionary stacked voices, ornate instrumentation and state-of-the-art multi-tracking"

This source also clearly supports the "friendly rival" description. The other major source for the passage, Gaines's Beach Boys biography, just as clearly offers support for both descriptions. DocKino (talk) 06:15, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Your edit to the article was not well-written and interpreted the source material in a manner that makes the article inaccurate. In addition, your comments above are insulting. Please discuss the edits and not the editor. (Please read that last part carefully!) Back to the topic at hand: Neither source says "creatively ambitious" and neither says anything that could be interpreted that way with regard to Wilson hearing "Strawberry Fields Forever". They say he was crushed, that he felt the perfect rock album had been made. If he was "creatively ambitious" he would have tried to top SPLHCB rather than shelving the SMILE project. — John Cardinal (talk) 06:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
This is an incoherent response, in several ways.
  • I have laid out a clear argument for how "creatively ambitious" is a strongly supported summary of the source's content; you have not put in the slightest effort into making a counter-argument.
  • The BBC article does not use the word "crushed". It is neither appropriate nor necessary to quote Gaines's "crushed" when (a) multiple sources are cited, (b) perfectly good synonyms are available, and (c) words would be wasted making clear who is being quoted.
  • The idea that Wilson's response to "Strawberry Fields" and Sgt. Pepper means that he must not have been "creatively ambitious" simply betrays an ignorance of psychology. He was crestfallen, he felt he'd been "usurped", he was "crushed" precisely because of his creative ambition. Any sensible reading of our sources informs us of that. You certainly haven't suggested any alternative reason that a music lover might have been "crushed" by hearing musical perfection. DocKino (talk) 06:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Still, the term "creatively ambitious", and the process you've outlined above by which you justify the term, contain elements of WP:SYNTHESIS and/or WP:PEACOCK. Radiopathy •talk• 06:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What is "peacock" about describing someone as "creatively ambitious" when that is both well established and explanatory of his reaction? As for WP:SYNTHESIS, you have misinterpreted it. Every statement paraphrased from our sources involves a process of distillation of extensive material. The "synthesis" we seek to avoid involves "combin[ing] material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources", a very different matter. The description of Wilson as "creatively ambitious" is a pertinent summation of material in the source I've detailed above. That it is supported by similar material in the other source cited only makes it a stronger choice. This article, like all excellent articles on Wikipedia, is full of such distillations. If we did not engage in this process, our articles would consist of little but quotations. DocKino (talk) 06:53, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Creatively ambitious" is not a neutral term; it works well in a biography - or a press release - but not in an encyclopedia. Radiopathy •talk• 07:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
"Ambitious" is perfectly neutral: "'having or controlled by ambition". "Creatively" modifies it in a pertinent manner. We're not calling him a "genius" or even "talented". If you don't believe this term "works well", please provide a similarly brief one that accurately describes Wilson and helps explain his reaction to hearing the "Strawberry Fields" single, which is the point here. DocKino (talk) 07:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Just catching up on this conversation. My £0.02: surely no one doubts that Wilson was hitherto creatively ambitious? The point, surely, is that due to his wider problems and illness (by no means attributable to The Beatles or their music, as #What a ignorance above stresses), he became unable to cope and ended his widely documented fierce (and by some judged effective, with Pet Sounds) competition to better Beatles music. Perhaps "Strawberry Fields" was the final straw, as more than one source indicates; certainly at that point he ceased to be creatively ambitious but that doesn't change "creatively ambitious" as the background fact of what then happened. I don't think there's any issue with the phrase. PL290 (talk) 07:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I also note that it stands quite well, and is perhaps even slightly better, without "creatively ambitious", as this is already implied by the preceding sentence. So perhaps we should drop the matter and just leave the phrase out. PL290 (talk) 07:33, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Reflecting on it, I realized it was possible the preceding sentence made the point sufficiently clear. If you feel it does, that's fine by me. DocKino (talk) 07:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The "friendly rival"/"crestfallen" wording strikes me as an accurate paraphrase and a vast improvement on what we had previously which carried the rather unfortunate implication that "Strawberry Fields" was somehow the direct cause of Wilson's very sad decline. PL290 (talk) 09:30, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Gaines wrote:
"Many things dealt the final blow to 'Smile ... and finally, the release of two new Beatle singles, 'Penny Lane' and 'Strawberry Fields,' so wondrous and different sounding that Brian was crushed."
The BBC article says:
"The combination of drug-induced paranoia and a feeling of rejection sent Wilson, still only in his mid 20s, over the edge. The final straw was hearing the Beatles' Strawberry Fields track on the radio. He felt he'd been usurped. He retired to bed for several years, got enormously fat and was unable to work. The Smile album disappeared into rock's mythology."
So, Gaines says "crushed", and the BBC article says it was "the final straw". Yes, drugs, the inability to finish Smile, the Wilson family issues, etc., were perhaps more significant, but two separate reliable sources felt compelled to mention a specific song as a trigger to the collapse of the project, and of Wilson himself. Yet now we have "crestfallen", as if someone gave him a cold latte. — John Cardinal (talk) 13:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps there's a better word yet. To me, "crushed" without enough context risks implying too much. Even if you say "so wondrous and different sounding that Brian was crushed", something's wrong. Without the context of his wider problems preceding it, that leaves too much open to the imagination. I am not crushed if I hear something wondrous and different. On the other hand, "crestfallen" has the right "limiting" effect, but is commonly used for much more minor things such as, say, a cold latte. I think if we are going to better "crestfallen", we're likely to have to bite the bullet of a brief indication of Wilson's context. I'll work on it. PL290 (talk) 14:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Better? [23] PL290 (talk) 14:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I like the phrase "the final straw"; it's accurate to the sources (one uses that exact phrase, and the other has the very similar "final blow") and doesn't imply the weight of "crush" which some editors feel is too strong.
I think we could drop the "friendly rivals" bit; it clutters the sentence, and while it's true they were rivals, the current sources aren't specific about that, and based on my reading of the Gaines book and many Beatle books, I am not sure how friendly they were. They were not unfriendly, but they weren't truly friends, were they? I won't argue it if other editors want it.
Should the part about abandoning attempts to compete with The Beatles be changed to abandoning the Smile project?
The situation with Wilson at that time was complex and capturing the full situation isn't possible in one or two sentences and shouldn't be a goal for this article anyway. It seems clear from multiple reliable sources that hearing SFF was a significant contributing factor to Wilson abandoning the Smile project and the more concisely we can say that, the better. However, I won't change it from the version PL290 linked above. — John Cardinal (talk) 16:04, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Were they friends: I wouldn't mind too much losing "friendly rivals" and have removed it [24] to see what others think of the effect; as a point of information, Harry (2000) p. 100 confirms it: "The Beatles and the Beach Boys actually became quite good friends."
  • Abandoning all attempts to compete vs. abandoning Smile: Harry (same page) follows the episode with "Later, when the Beach Boys decided not to appear at Monterey Rock Festival, Jan Wenner, editor of Rolling Stone, was to write in his publication, 'The Beach Boys are just one prominent example of a group that has gotten hung up in trying to catch the Beatles'". (See also festival article; interesting that members of the two bands were involved in organizing it.) Added to this, per the BBC article you've quoted above, Wilson retired to bed for several years, unable to work, and this was 1967... PL290 (talk) 17:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I stand corrected on "friendly rivals". I admit I haven't read all 1200 small-print pages of Harry (2000), but I did follow your cite to page 100. Also, the BBC article does say "friendly rivalry"; I was crossed up by it being written about Beatle attitudes towards the Beach Boys when I was looking for it the other way around. I still don't think it's necessary, but either way is fine.

BTW: I appreciate your effort to find a solution that multiple editors can support. — John Cardinal (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You need to study biography of Paul MacCartney, Brian Wilson, Beach Boys, and to know the story of Smile. Strawberry Fields Forever was not the thing.Van Dyke Parks abandoned the project well before that the Beatles song. In Documentary of Smile Brian blame Mike Love, and says that the Beatles left amazed, and saw that it had succeeded in concluding Beatles first, as the Smile was to be completed since January or February 1967. Smile is richer and more worked, and Beach Boys is so responsible Beatles, with or without Brian. Nobody here is a liar, but the phrase is pretentious. Beach Boys or Beatles? For me the both are wonderful!!!!!!!! (Mago266 (talk) 22:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]

  • I don't know what phrase you mean when you say "the phrase is pretentious."
  • I've got at least 50 books about The Beatles in my personal library, and I've read all of them, and other books, magazines, and online articles, etc. I don't think I need to study the biography of McCartney (or any other Beatle-related person) any more than I have, though I will certainly read anything new that appears.
  • In general, I am not that interested in Smile and I doubt I'll study it, Wilson, or the Beach Boys more than I already have. I've heard the Brian Wilson version of Smile released in 2004, and it wasn't memorable and didn't move me. That's just my reaction, however, and I assume that it was different for you. On the other hand, I've listened to The Pet Sounds Sessions many, many times—the "stacks o' tracks" parts provide a great insight into Brian as a writer, producer, and arranger—and it's clear that Wilson was very talented. It's tragic that various issues sidetracked him when he should have been at the peak of his creativity. I don't see how any of that matters, however.
  • The key point is that we have reliable sources that say SFF had a negative impact on Wilson and the completion of the Smile project. That doesn't mean it's true: it means that reliable sources made that claim, and that's what we ought to report. Those same sources describe the family issues that plagued Brian since his youth, Brian's drug use, Mike Love's desire to stick with the traditional Beach Boys formula, Love's differences with Van Dyke Parks, Brian's weird behavior alienating everyone around him, etc. This article doesn't have to cover those (or other) issues because that's fodder for other articles.
  • I am not aware of any reliable sources that dispute the claim about SFF. If you know of any, then please provide them. You must be fairly specific; it's not up to us to find the evidence for you. I am not trying to be difficult, it's common sense that if you disagree with the content, then you ought to provide the evidence that supports changing it. — John Cardinal (talk) 00:46, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Featured!

Congratulations! Was awesome to watch the process. promoted! (John User:Jwy talk) 17:49, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic work. Congratulations all involved. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. I have no idea how User:DocKino and User:PL290 have found time to do so much editing of this article, but well done to them and everyone else who's worked on it recently. Should we focus our attention on another Beatles-related article next? Maybe Lennon/McCartney, The Beatles in 1966, or one of the other articles listed in Template:The Beatles history? --Nick RTalk 13:08, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest The Beatles timeline. (I have a conflict of interest, since I created it, but it is too short and the format isn't perfect yet). Dendodge T\C 20:19, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It means a lot to me to see this article regain its featured status, and I can only repeat my thanks to all concerned and acknowledge again the input from countless editors that got it to this point, including, of course, the unsung hero admins who tirelessly ward off vandalism and keep the article in good shape. I found the FAC process tremendously enjoyable and rewarding, and will be raring to repeat it when a suitable opportunity next arises.
On the subject of "what next", thinking more broadly, would it be useful to reinstate "collaboration of the week"? On the project page there's a link to one, but it goes nowhere, so I take it this was something dropped in the past. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Alternative music/COTW for an example of how this can work, including a mechanism for voting to choose upcoming collaborations. It could be very productive to concentrate attention on a particular article each week. PL290 (talk) 21:41, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Um... we have WP:TBCOTM. Dendodge T\C 23:15, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]


June 2024
The Beatles Story
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Lewisohn Recording Sessions reference

Lewisohn's book The Complete Beatles Recording Sessions (1988) has been added to the references. However, when I click on the ISBN 0-066-55798-7 link, Wikipedia's Book Sources search says it's invalid. The book also appears in the "Further reading" section (from an earlier period when it was not cited in the article), but with a different year (2004) and an ISBN which works. Could someone with a copy of the book make sure it only appears in References, with the correct ISBN? --Nick RTalk 12:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Might be ISBN 0-600-55798-7. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:23, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Discography section of this article

Past Masters was just deleted from the straight list of official Beatle albums. I included Past Masters because it covers the tracks not in the official albums. Should it be included?

Support -- Past Masters gathers together the tracks not included in the original British Beatle LPs and the American Magical Mystery Tour album which became an official album when it was issued on CD. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:34, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, because its still not a studio album. And there's a not about Past Masters further down in the part about CD releases. Deserted Cities (talk) 18:42, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, as per Deserted Cities.--Pawnkingthree (talk) 18:46, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I came up with a solution. The song catalogue subsection looked out of place in retrospect so I moved it to the bottom of the discography section. So the CD releases section is now directly below the list of official Beatle albums. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:57, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Song catalogue still looked out of place so I made it its own section. Steelbeard1 (talk) 18:59, 5 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Smile and abandon

John cardinal, Strawberry Fields Forever was not the cause. Paul, Lennon admired the group. McCartney recorded Vega-Tables on Smile. I have not erased the sentence because I respect the wikipedia, but in this case I will have to remove it. (Mago266 (talk) 23:02, 5 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special%3ADiff%2F324173699

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