This is only a draft and I realize it has my opinions dripping all over it so don't be shy and discuss here. We are basically trying to answer the question: "What is notable enough to be included on a recent year page and what is not?" Wrad (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Could we name Eurovision Song Contest as something that should not be linked, as well. If that was in the guideline, I'd withdraw my opposition to the removal of the Superbowl. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Wrad (talk) 22:45, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree that that The Eurovision should not be listed, it is a regular showbiz event.

A lot of events used to be listed, and once we have proper guidelines in place we can go back through the years and remove what should not be included. FFMG (talk) 06:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pretty much in agreement with the guidelines as listed. In general an entry which fits into one of the sub-categories must be pretty exceptional to be included on a year page. Obviously it must also be internationally significant as well. At present there are probably 2 missing sub-categories which should be added: Disasters and Terrorist Attacks. The note under 3-Continent Rule "Events which are not cited will be removed" might need the addition "unless it has it's own wiki article".

The only other quibble I have is with the Deaths criteria. I don't see how this can be applied as successfully to less recent years (I realise we're only talking about current/recent pages here). Also some links will go dead after a while which could become problematic later on for marginal cases. Another difficulty is wether or not a non-english article is merely an auto-translation for a mirror news site rather than an independent report, the latter being a much better indication of notability than the former. Unfortunately I can think of no other all-encompassing criteria that could be used so I guess we're stuck with it.

Another thing which might save a lot of repetition would be a link at the top of the year page to this guideline page; I'm pretty sure we're all tired of having to revert the same good-faith edits over and over again! Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 01:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Since wikipedia can't use itself as a source, I don't think "unless it has its own wiki article" is a good idea. If it has its own wiki article, then we can take a source from that article and put it on the event, that's fine. Wrad (talk) 04:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my limited experience on year pages, most people don't even read hidden comments, let alone go and read guidelines.

But it would be nice if we could remove an entry and simply add 'removed per #3.4 of the guildlines', (or something to that effect). FFMG (talk) 06:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A new link to these guidelines is now added to the 2009 page. Hopefully more people will read the guidelines after this.

Then a thought, perhaps some of these rules are to apply more strict for events of the past than for upcoming? After all, only few events are noticed in media until they actually occur, even if it is known where and when they will happen. I guess this is already the case, but maybe this can be specified more clearly among the rules. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RBM 72 (talk • contribs) 20:44, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is mention in the guideline of certain topical year articles like spaceflight. It seems like the country-based alternative should be mentioned as well, with some links, such as to the US and EU articles at least.

Also, the link to the guidelines has been commented out on the 2009 page. Perhaps its addition requires discussion there? — Ken g6 (talk) 05:26, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've redisplayed the link. Even though casual editors may still miss/misunderstand/ignore it, it's more likely to be seen if it's displayed rather than hidden. At the same time I had to remove a whole heap of edits of exactly the sort this article is trying to prevent being added! MOre than one editor is involved so it would help if everyone else could keep an eye on this, it's a real pain having to remove them when it's too late to revert!! DerbyCountyinNZ 00:13, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I think that there shouldn't be the Three Continent Rule, because it seems unnecessary. Please consider. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AliDincgor (talk • contribs) 03:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have a proposal for the deaths section. What if we limit it to a quota of 25 people in the deaths section only? That way, only really and truly notable deaths will be listed and people will have to present a very convincing case. Other deaths can be listed on the deaths page. Wrad (talk) 18:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How would we decide the 25? It would cause a huge debate on the talkpages and generally would be a mess IMO. People will feel slighted that the person they wanted in didn't get in, editors will accuse each other of regional biases, etc. Personally, I like the 10 language rule. I think it worked well on the 2008 article. Some months we have 20 deaths and for other months we have closer to 10 deaths. All in all it looks like we have a similar number of deaths and events on the article, so one section isn't disproportionally larger than the other. Then again I am the one who proposed the 10 language criteria in the first place so I may be a bit biased. --Tocino 21:41, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea what sort of criteria could be used to limit it to 25/year. There must be some way of reducing the list to 5-10/month. For eg January 2009 has so far (I have italicised those who I don't believe are sufficiently notable):

• January 1 - Nizar Rayan, Palestinian Hamas military and political leader (b. 1959) -- Frankly not a Head of State or just one of many leaders in a minor conflict.
• January 1 - Johannes Mario Simmel, Austrian writer (b. 1924) -- Although he has won various awards, is he likely to be known outside the serious literary community?
• January 1 - Helen Suzman, South African activist and politician (b. 1917)
• January 3 - Pat Hingle, American actor (b. 1924) -- Extensive career but limited major roles
• January 11 - Pio Laghi, Italian Roman Catholic Cardinal (b. 1922) -- Is he really likely to be known outside the RC hierarchy?
• January 12 - Claude Berri, French film director (b. 1934) -- One BAFTA win but unlikely to be widely known outside the film community
• January 12 - Arne Næss, Norwegian philosopher (b. 1912) -- Seems to be an important philosopher, but not sure this makes him truly internationally notable
• January 13 - Patrick McGoohan, Irish-American actor (b. 1928)
• January 14 - Ricardo Montalbán, Mexican actor (b. 1920)

Can't see there would be much argument about Suzman, McGoohan and Montalban. Basically I think anyone who is included should be expected to be widely (geographically) known outside their particular field. If they are only widely known within their field then they should be included on that sub-category page (eg film, music, television, sports etc) and if they are only famous in their own country then in the "2009 in country" page. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ (talk) 03:52, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Having a quota would be wrong, as the number of internationally notable people that die during a given period varies considerably. In the case of 2009: note how few names there are in the February Deaths section. On 25 June, two very notable people, Fawcett and Jackson, died. A quota by nationality, field etc would also be wrong, as there are two boxers, Arguello and Gatti, in July Deaths. A quota system would mean excluding some very internationally notable people because another internationally notable person from the same field or country died during the same month / year, or excluding some worthy of being listed, simply because too many other people died that day / week / month / year. Under a quota by country and / or profession, if former US presidents George H.W. Bush and Jimmy Carter die in the same month, you would have to exclude one of them, due to a rule saying you can't have two people from the same profession and the same country listed in the same month. Think how ridiculous that would be, to exclude a former US Pres from the deaths section, whilst including little-known writers and bit-part actors who retired decades ago just because of a quota. I don't see any advantage to a quota; it would certainly not prevent the long arguments and edit wars about inclusion. It could make matters worse, with arguments such as "he's more notable than her" replied with "no he's not, no-one under 60 in my country has heard of him, millions of people have heard of her", etc. Keeping it the way it is is better, as each decedant is judged on his own international notability. Information yes (talk) 08:54, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure this guideline will grow with time, but for the most part we all seem agreed on this. I'm going to move it out of project space. Wrad (talk) 00:10, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Experience on 2009 so far suggests that people do not know about this guidance and it is difficult to keep the page in line with it in part because of this. Is there a reason why we can't have a link actually at the top of the page rather than more or less hidden (and unclickable) to be found only by those who edit the Events section? dougweller (talk) 08:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This page is a good start, but there appears to be a lot of room for improvement. The 3 continent rule, for instance, is necessary but not sufficient, and I think we could use some more sufficiency.

Looking around for better guidelines, I happened upon a page that I initially thought listed other guidelines for Recent years; but upon closer inspection, it's actually Wikipedia:Days of the year. Many of these guidelines are applicable to Recent years. For example, I note that "Standing the test of time" would be a good complement to the 3CR, making it more clear that breaking news that gets picked up on 3 continents is not automatically eligible for recent year articles.

I think most of the Days of the year guidelines should be included in Recent years, with appropriate adjustments as necessary.

— Ken g6 (talk) 01:30, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree! They look good, especially this one. DerbyCountyinNZ 04:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Since you've stumbled across WP:DOY and found it useful, perhaps you would consider adding your opinions on the talk page about making it an official guideline. It is indeed a de facto guideline and it is practiced 100%, but it needs the stamp of approval which has been tough to get. More input would be helpful. You may run into the same pitfalls here with narrowing notability requirements. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 12:13, 19 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At present the criteria for inclusion is articles on wikipedia in 10 different languages. Should this be seen as a minimum or the one and only criteria. Is someone such as Abel Paz sufficiently notable when his article contains no references at all? And should someone whose death is not notable enough for a year page also have their birth removed from the relevant page? Should Joan Mary Wayne Brown be included in 1906 births when her article has been tagged as an orphan? Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ 23:49, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

It is only the minimum criteria. Wrad (talk) 00:43, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good to know I hadn't misunderstood! Perhaps it should be clarified on the main page here? Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ 01:36, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

What constitutes "recent"? How far back should it be applied? DerbyCountyinNZ 23:10, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

The issue of the possible inclusion of these pro wrestlers in 2009#Deaths is currently being discussed. As the main proponent of their inclusion has seen fit to gather reinforcements from Wikipedia:WikiProject Professional wrestling (once it became clear he was not going to get consensus) I thought I would respond in kind. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 21:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should there be a 9 article guideline specifically for births or is an article in Wikipedia sufficient to establish validity and inclusion into a recent year article? ttonyb1 (talk) 14:21, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there something somewhere in policy or guidelines mentioning whether or not these types of articles need to have citations, else tagged with templates such as {{unreferenced}}? The reason I ask is that I came across many of these 'year' articles in Category:Articles lacking sources from August 2009 because they were tagged as unreferenced, but I don't think they should be (ex. 391 BC etc., although I realize these are not 'Recent years' but I wasn't sure where else to post) Anyways, I'd like to quote something official per my post here and am wondering if there's something I'm missing or just haven't read yet.. -- œ^™ 02:40, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At present the minimum requirement is 9 non-English articles. In the past few monthsthere have been several situations where at the time of death someone had less than 9 non-E articles but then some days weeks (and it one case months) later they were up to 9. There has also been a case of a user deliberately creating foreign language articles with the sole purpose of trying to achieve the minimum. There have also been cases where the manner of death and consequent media coverage has resulted in enough new foreign articles to pass the minimum and thence lengthy discussions as to whether or not they are really notable enough for inclusion in a year page.

Proposal: The 9 non-English articles be taken at the time of death and not subsequently (except by consensus). Realistically if they are not sufficiently notable before their death their actual death should not be an added factor in their notability. This would then require a burden of proof of notability on those wishing to add someone rather than their being added (after achieving 9+) and then a discussion arising as to whether they should be removed. Of course this would still be open to abuse (see Misawa/Martin case above) but it should hopefully reduce the number/length of talk page disputes. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:22, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with this 100%. Wrad (talk) 14:54, 17 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with it 100%. GaryColemanFan (talk) 04:10, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This needs to be pushed along as it would prevent further cases of edit-warring. One more week should be sufficient. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 20:50, 18 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's been another week and there being no further input and a 2:1 vote in favour (yes I know 3 people isn't many!) I'll make the change. DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 04:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted it because majority votes aren't used on Wikipedia, and there was certainly no definite consensus proven here. A month and a half with only one supporter of the idea isn't enough to change policy. GaryColemanFan (talk) 19:34, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So what would have been enough to make the change valid/invalid? Your summary[1] implies that 000's would be needed to vote, (indecently, the opposite is also true, if they _didn't_ want the policy changed they would have voted).

I agree with the change in policy, but that would only make 3-1. FFMG (talk) 20:29, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus defaults to no change. The question was out there for a month and a half with no consensus. Case closed. GaryColemanFan (talk) 20:41, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While GaryColemanFan has made no real argument against this, consensus evidently does not exist. It seems to me that this new criteria would be difficult to enforce. If a name is added a year after the person's death, is someone going to look back at all of the foreign articles to see if they existed at the time of death? Don't take my comment as in favor or against, I'm all for easy to identify inclusion criteria. -- Mufka ^{(u) (t) (c)} 23:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of this amendment is to place greater emphasis on the user adding a person to establish that person's notability. There have been a number of people who have had as few as 5 or 6 non-English articles at the time of their death. This would indicate that they were in fact not particularly notable at the time they died. The fact that have died has led to articles for them being (at last) created does not mean they should be considered "automatically" notable. At present the process has in these cases been:

1. A user adds a deceased person to the deaths section being either unaware or ignoring the criteria (which are included in multiple hidden notes in the article).
2. The deceased person is deleted for failing to meet the minimum criteria.
3. The deceased person reaches the minimum criteria and is again added to the deaths section.
4. If someone considers the deceased person to not be of sufficient notability then a discussion is started on the Year talk page.

For those of us that have been following the Year articles for a while this process gets to be rather tedious. The proposed amendment would make the process:

1. A user adds a deceased person to the deaths section being either unaware or ignoring the criteria.
2. The deceased person is deleted for failing to meet the minimum criteria.
3. If someone considers the deceased person to be of sufficient notability then a discussion is started on the Year talk page.

It seems that those of us concerned with setting or maintaining criteria that can be used on all Year articles are too few in number to make any serious effort at applying even the current criteria to previous years let alone the suggested amendment (and in any case it would obviously be impossible to apply to any year before wiki started!) which is why I put "from 2009".

Of course if we have to wait for at least half of all wiki users to be in favour of the amendment (or any other matter requiring "consensus" then I guess we're all wasting our time! DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 23:56, 3 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Support: Unless somebody here speaks 10 or more languages, it could be quite a challenge to determine whether all the post-death foreign articles actually read like encyclopedia articles or, rather, like obituaries. As it stands, it's hard enough to tell a lot of English articles apart from a whole bunch of other things, and while it may not be the Answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything, it might not be a bad start in terms of quality-control. Cosmic Latte (talk) 20:39, 15 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We seem to be getting a number of minor actors listed on the Years pages. Although I thought the Deaths section also included Births, it appears it does not. I am concerned the Recent Years pages will become unreadable lists of names that overshadow major events. I am proposing the following change in the wording of the deaths section. The changes are in italics or are struckout. The following is the proposed wording:

Deaths and births

Deaths and births are only to be included if the person dead has articles about him or her on Wikipedia in at least ten languages. (William Shakespeare, for example, has several foreign language articles on him, listed on the left sidebar.) This is a minimum requirement for inclusion. Many articles will not merit inclusion even though they may have enough foreign articles.

ttonyb1 (talk) 21:12, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This makes perfect sense. The only problem might be that users create foreign language articles just to make the minimum requirement which means marginal cases will have to have the foreign language articles checked to make sure they are genuine (which could become tedious). DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 09:02, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a minor formatting question. How should Nobel Prize winners be described in the Births and Deaths sections?

eg

• September 8 – Aage Niels Bohr, Danish physicist and Nobel Prize laureate (born 1922)

OR

• September 8 – Aage Niels Bohr, Danish physicist, Nobel laureate (born 1922)

There are many variations on this such as linking Nobel Prize or Nobel Prize in Chemistry which I think we can agree is superfluous.

I favour the second example above as it includes all the necessary information in the briefest form. Cheers, DerbyCountyinNZ ^{(Talk Contribs)} 22:29, 16 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Input sought at Talk:2009 regarding their international notability, and hence their eligibility for inclusion in the Deaths section of 2009. Information yes (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]