Archives

1, 2, 3, 4

Please see Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment to see what this is all about.

Greetings all,

Every great restaurant has both appetizers and entrées. They can both be fantastic, but one expects tha appetizer to be somewhat smaller than an entrée. Similarly there are articles that are meant to delve deeply into a specific subject, and there are others that whet the appetite about the various aspects of a broad subject and then directs the reader to main articles.

It seems that in this grading system, the appetizer will always be graded as a stub, no matter how perfect it is. Now this wouldn't necessarily be bad except the stub shows up lower than a start. This doesn't seem fair. Am I missing something?KitemanSA (talk) 05:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No that's not really so. An article is a stub if the content is jumbled and generally useless. Length doesn't affect grading. If an article is perfect it's generally a FA. Do you have an example of a "perfect" article that is classified as a stub? This might be better served if moved to WT:ASSESS §hep • ¡Talk to me! 05:15, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At present, {{Project-Class}} uses the same colour as {{Template-Class}}, however I feel it would be preferable to give it it's own unique colour. With that in mind I would like to suggest that we change the colour to this:

which is the same colour used for the border of message boxes such as WikiProject banners (#C0C090). Thoughts? PC78 (talk) 19:33, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's not the best color choice. Do I have a better idea right now? No. But I certainly don't like this one. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 20:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You mean you feel it is in some way inappropriate or you just don't like it? PC78 (talk) 20:41, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I mean I feel it looks like the color of some animal feces. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:04, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like very light animal feces to me... --.:Alex:. 21:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

:) Well... granted, I may not choose to wear a shirt of this colour, but for our purposes here I don't think we need be too picky. It doesn't clash with anything else, anyway. If anyone has any other suggestions then by all means speak up. PC78 (talk) 21:14, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In all honesty I think this might need to be discussed more widely. Not all of this, because it isn't used as widely, but it's still used by on a good deal of pages. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:25, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would that be the correct venue for discussion, though? Project-Class is one of the non-standard grades (and a fairly recent addition at that), and I don't think they're covered by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team (though I may be wrong). Heck, it's not even a protected template. PC78 (talk) 21:34, 9 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does deal with the "obscure" assessments over there as well, AFAIK. A template talk page just doesn't get that many visitors. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 01:55, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps. Heck, I'm not even sure why Template talk:Project-Class redirects here when it isn't used in the grading scheme template. PC78 (talk) 11:26, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As there were no alternative suggestions forthcoming, I have implemented the animal faeces. Martin 11:21, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think Template:Cat class should be changed as well, to match. Martin 11:23, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The same colour you mean? No, I think all classes should have their own distinct colours, unless we were go the other way completely and give all of the "namespace" classes a single colour. I wouldn't be opposed to changing {{Cat-Class}} to something less similar to {{Start-Class}}, though. PC78 (talk) 11:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You misunderstand. Template:Cat class is not the same as Template:Cat-Class. I am not suggesting we change the colour of category-class, but just to update the project-class colour on both templates so that it is consistent. Martin 13:32, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah-ha, fooled by the dash! :) Ignore my ramblings then... PC78 (talk) 13:34, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

...except to say that perhaps {{Project-Class}} and should be protected like {{Category-Class}} and others, as it now has nearly 1000 transclusions. PC78 (talk) 13:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does bother me that anyone can edit that template. Should we take it to WP:RPP? Also, just because someone suggested the change there was no consensus that that was the best color choice and was made in haste. Because someone suggests a change does not mean it should be acted on immediately. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 18:43, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fair comment, though someone arbitrarily chose pink as the colour when the template was created nine months ago. As for protection, I see that {{Future-Class}} and {{Current-Class}} are also unprotected. It would probably be wise to request protection for all three. PC78 (talk) 01:17, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that the namespace has been renamed, would it be an idea to change the name of Image-Class to File-Class? PC78 (talk) 08:09, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually that would be a very good idea, as obviousl ynot all files related to WikiProjects may be images, and we certainly don't want to create classes for each type of file. --.:Alex:. 19:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good. Just redirect {{Image-Class}} to {{File-Class}}? §hep • ¡Talk to me! 21:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm... won't project banners also need to be adjusted to accept class=File as a valid parameter? Then there would be project categories to rename as well. I still think it's worth doing, just might be a bigger job than first anticipated? PC78 (talk) 00:52, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not necessarily. Eventually categories, banners, etc. would need modified. For instance all BannerMeta templates accept both image and class as good values and sorts them as image-class. A good deal of banners rely on a system of #switches that modify the text and template that appear. If the banners are modified then all images, etc. that have been assessed as class=image would need to be changed to class=file. IMO the simplest option would be to modify all banners to accept image and file as classes (if the projects let us), have a bot go around switching class=image to class=file, remodify the templates we edited earlier to remove class=image functionality afer a time and most of the recategorization should be simple once image can no longer be a valid class. Projects that still wish to use image can still use the template and the updated banners would use the file template and categorization. A change like this would probably be best discussed at the council with as much input as possible from all projects. §hep • ^Talk 01:01, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dunno how widely something like this would need to be discussed; ultimately it's a fairly cosmetic change. Depends how many projects are using the class, I suppose. PC78 (talk) 01:07, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Appears that almost 400 projects have an Image-Class category correctly sorted to WP 1.0. There's also the possibility of banners that use the meta template haven't created the category yet and other projects that don't participate in WP1 but still use image-class. §hep • ^Talk 01:38, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On principle I think it is an extremely good idea, but there are huge technical issues to be resolved. By editing WPBM you can alter the categorisation of 700 banners with one edit, but if you change them to all categorise into Category:File-Class Foo articles instead of Category:Image-Class Foo articles then you immediately need four hundred new categories. Which comes first, chicken or egg? WPBM already accepts |class=file, it's just a question of which is the alias, 'file' or 'image'; both would have to be supported for the forseable future. It's a good idea generally, but is quite technically involved. Happy‑melon 14:50, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a first step, I have boldly redirected {{Image-Class}} to {{File-Class}}. Assuming that sticks, stage 2 is to begin a transition from using Category:Image-Class Foo articles to using Category:File-Class Foo articles. Happy‑melon 18:13, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You might also want to add the following to MediaWiki:Common.css. -- WOSlinker (talk) 21:34, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

.mediawiki .assess-file     { background: #DDCCFF; }

Damn, I thought I'd remembered that when I first added the classes. Oh well, it's in now. Happy‑melon 22:20, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can a bot take care of the categories? PC78 (talk) 00:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it could, and I even have code that could be trivially modified for it, but that's a rather large step for which we'll need a larger consensus. Happy‑melon 00:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a big problem with the assessment scale system, and that is classes. A class is normally a grade that shows what quality the page is of. However, the inclusion of non-quality classes interferes with the main point of assessmnet in general. For instance, List-class. There are MANY lists on wikipedia, with varying quality; ranging from short, badly written and cruft filled lists to the long, well-written and sourced lists that have achieved FL. The point of assessment is to show readers and editors what kind of shape the page is in and also shows if the article can be trusted better as a source. The same with lists, or so it should be. Most lists are currently being labeled as "List" class. What does this say of it's quality? Of it's reliability as a source/reference? Nothing. All it shows is that it's a list. Grading a list using the normal assessment scale can help readers understand if the page is well-written/factual, and for editors to know if it needs a bit more work (From GA to FL for example). It may increase the workload of assessers, but it gives the editors and related project the information they need to improve them. I do agree with replacing image class with file class, as there are many different types of files, and organizing them into one would decrease the needed work to make a class for each seperate file type (Sound, image, etc.). However, I do not agree with calling these types "Classes". I propose adding, along with quality/class and importance, a "Type" section, stating the type of the page (Article, List, File, Redirect, Project, etc.). This would help remove the "non-quality" classes and move them into a more appropriate section. Yes, this would involve editing every single project template, but removing this problem is far more worth it (and it will get rid of the complaining as well), especially when dealing with the quality of a page. If the page doesn't need quality (Like a project or Category), then it would get the NA-class, with the appropriate type added in. A concern some of you may face is clutter. The type could be added right below the importance, placed in the same way the upper two are. THis is an important issue that NEEDS to be addressed. Fixing this mess will ensure a more organized wikipedia all around, and will hopefully improve the quality of many pages that are wrongfully classified. Thank you for your time.  Dylanlip  (talk) 17:38, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou for your comments. However, I believe you have somewhat misinterpreted the main purpose of the assessment scheme. The scheme is not, as you suggest, aimed primarily to inform readers, or the assessment would be shown on the article page; we have had numerous discussions to the conclusion that only the FA/FL star should be shown on the article page. Article assessments are arbitrary, unilaterally implemented and usually lag behind the actual quality of an article; each grade has subtle criteria that will not be obvious to the lay-reader; as such, readers cannot rely on the grade of an article, and should not be expected to do so. The assessment scale is aimed entirely at the editing community, and has two main purposes. Firstly, it is used by the WP:Version 1.0 Editorial Team to select quality articles for static releases. Secondly, it is used by WikiProjects to co-ordinate and prioritise their work.

In this context, it is apparent that modifications to the scale should only be made when they would improve its utility and ease-of-use for those two groups. I don't believe that the changes you propose would necessarily do so. There is no accepted quality scale for list articles: there are no "Good list" criteria, no "B-Class list" criteria, no "A-Class list review" departments. It makes no sense to grade lists on the full quality scale unless all this infrastructure is in place, and there is no evidence that it would be a net benefit for the projects using the scale to create and maintain such additional bureaucracy. Similarly, replacing "Image-Class" with "Image-Type, NA-Class" is pure make-work unless there is a tangible benefit to be gained from the transition. Images, like other non-article content, cannot be assessed on the stub/start/c/b/ga/a/fa quality scale, so there is no disadvantage in that scale being unavailable. What you are essentially proposing is that every non-article page is marked as NA-Class on the quality scale and that a whole other scale is created to compensate for that loss of semantic clarity. That is completely unnecessary. Happy‑melon 18:05, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sympathetic with the above comment up to a point. The likes of Template-Class, Category-Class et al have got sod all to do with article assessments; personally I'd rather lump anything that isn't an article into NA-Class and do away with the rest, but I suspect that's a minority opinion. :) But I'm also against this idea of adding a third "Type" section, which I've already seen implemented in some banners. Why do we need anything in the banner to tell us what namespace we're in? It all seems a bit pointless to me. PC78 (talk) 00:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Has there ever been any thought on adding an "Archive-class articles" classification? This would be useful on the many archive pages across WP. Just a suggestion, --Jeremy ( Blah blah...) 03:09, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What advantage would it have to the wikiprojects involved over and above either Project-Class or NA-Class? Happy‑melon 08:39, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{editprotected}} Can someone please update the following templates with the code in each respective sandbox:

• {{Top-importance}} with {{Top-importance/sandbox}}
• {{High-importance}} with {{High-importance/sandbox}}
• {{Mid-importance}} with {{Mid-importance/sandbox}}
• {{Low-importance}} with {{Low-importance/sandbox}}
• {{NA-importance}} with {{NA-importance/sandbox}}
• {{-importance}} with {{-importance/sandbox}}
• {{-Class}} with {{-Class/sandbox}}

In each case all this basically does is create a default link to the main category for each importance/class type, which will make them consistant with all other -Class templates such as {{FA-Class}} etc. Other changes are the removal of code defining the colours (these are now defined at MediaWiki:Common.css) and updated documentation. PC78 (talk) 01:10, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Let me know if there are any problems. --CapitalR (talk) 12:09, 5 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

About a year ago, a concern was raised that the dark grey colour used for Portal-Class makes the text a bit hard to read, especially when the colour of the text turns purple after the linked page has been visited. The discussion trailed off without any changes being made, but as this is a perfectly valid issue I would like to raise it again. :)

I've tried out a number of different colours to see how they look alongside other class/importance colours and when set against the background of a banner template, and settled on puce which is quite distinct from anything else we currently use. Alternative suggestions are, of course, welcome. Thoughts? PC78 (talk) 16:27, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

{{class example}}

Support — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me. Happy‑melon 18:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yummy, looks like beetroot. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:31, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

 Done. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 09:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget {{Portal-Class}}. I'd edit it myself except I can't :P Tothwolf (talk) 16:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I mistakenly thought that all these were using {{classcol}} now. Is there any reason why they aren't? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:00, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More to the point, why are they not all using {{Class}}? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AFAIK {{Class}} is not compatible with the individual -Class templates. PC78 (talk) 18:09, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, yes, I knew that really ;) But the td versions should be. I'll have a look into it. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. The category parameter is not compatible. However there is no reason why they can't all use {{classcol}}. I believe the definitions in MediaWiki:Common.css are not being used now, but I have asked happy-melon for clarification. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:18, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's probably a good idea. {{Class}} uses {{Classcol}}, as do all the -Class td templates; it would probably be prudent for the -Class templates to follow suit, then colours need only be adjusted in the one place. PC78 (talk) 22:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't do that; now all the templates will have multiple parser function calls that are unnecessary and which will slow down the display of the summary tables. :( Titoxd^{(?!? - cool stuff)} 22:06, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Hmm, I'm not sure whether this is the problem you're making it out to be. The aim of this was for consistency, and to avoid the need to change multiple templates the next time it is agreed to tweak the colour of a certain class. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 22:20, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Current		Proposed
FA	Merge	Merge
#9cbdff	#add8e6	#add8e6
Start	Category	Category
#ffaa66	#ffdb58	#ffdb58
Mid	Template	Template
#ffc1ff	#fbceb1	#fbceb1

At a glance, the colours used for Merge and Category-Class look pretty close to those used for FA/FL and Start-Class, while the colour used for Template-Class is identical to that used by Mid-importance. In a bid to get each Class type using it's own distinctive colour, I would like to propose the changes as illustrated in the table to the right. No radical departures from the colours we're already used to, just a bit of refinement. :) Alternative suggestions (should anyone have any) are of course welcome. Thoughts? PC78 (talk) 16:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question Is this really the most appropriate place to discuss these changes? I know the talk pages redirect here, but as pointed out before, this template doesn't even mention a lot of these classes! I don't really have a better solution though ... — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Template:Class example[reply]

Dunno, really. Last time I posted comments at Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment and Template talk:WPBannerMeta linking to the discussion, but only you and Melon had anything to say so I've not bothered this time (I can do, though). Template talk:Cat class, maybe? Village Pump? I can't see it being worth an RfC. PC78 (talk) 16:34, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we should retarget all those redirects to Template talk:Class. I like the changes, and I approve of the general shift towards more pastel colours; some of the old colours (Cat, Merge and Current in particular) are really rather glaring. Happy‑melon 16:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also support the changes. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 16:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've posted a link to this discussion at a few of the places mentioned above. Where the discussion is held is less important than people actually knowing about it, after all. :) PC78 (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well I guess Template talk:classcol is the place, since that is the template which will be changed! I would still wish for a more descriptive name like class color or class colour, but I suppose the name was chosen to avoid the American/British thing? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 18:24, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but I imagine there aren't too many eyes on that template with it being relatively new; it doesn't even have a talk page yet! :) "col" was chosen primarily because of the old -Class col templates which it was meant to replace, but yes, it does also neatly avoid "the American/British thing". PC78 (talk) 18:35, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Although unless I'm much mistaken, we're all three of us Brits... perhaps we should strike a blow for proper English before anyone notices :D Happy‑melon 19:08, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]