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Though it's not a glaring flaw, the toxic/dangerous effects section has a very optimistic and supportive tone to it. Although it is only using what I'll assume are factual figures, it presents them in a skewed way.

I agree, for an illegal drug it makes it look kinda like it was no big dealAvatar of Nothing 23:33, 2 April 2007 (UTC)Avatar of nothing[reply]

Legal status has absolutely no bearing on potential harm, and is invariably completely arbitrary. e.g. see [1] Nick Cooper 07:09, 3 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, anyways, it wouldn't be the first time the US Govt Was behind the times Avatar of Nothing 21:49, 16 April 2007 (UTC)Avatar of Nothing[reply]

I think that the total lack of information about the possibile negative effects of MDMA use is completely inexcusable, irresponsible and most importantly incorrect. No, whether or not a substance is illegal has very little relationship to how dangerous it is. It has nothing to do with how behind the times the US government is, their policies and actions have little to do with research findings on safety. The truth can be found somewhere between the kind of pro-MDMA propaganda in this article and the drug war rubbish the government puts out. MDMA isn't some evil drug that fries holes into your brain, nor is its use risk free, an attitude that this article seems to have been written to encourage. Is there a problem with knee jerk pro-MDMA folks reverting any change containing negative information about MDMA use, whether or not it is truthful, supported and sourced? Is this a Scientology article or something? The current article isn't good for anyone- it doesn't inform those doing research on MDMA and its effect of real possible risks, it doesn't help MDMA users in harm reduction, but worst of all it doesn't present the truth. --Revaaron 01:54, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think labeling this article as "propaganda" is inappropriate, particularly since you have not offered any suggestions as to where such propaganda can be found in the article. The health risks are duly noted in the article, as well as the "Effects" article linked in that section. Your claim about this article's use in "research" is specious: as an encyclopedia, we cite published research, not the other way around. Do you have constructive suggestions for improvement? Simishag 02:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have made some constructive improvements. This article was entirely ignorant of the past 10 years of MDMA research and I have been careful and put a few hours into updating the risk and safety sections (which seem like they should be callapsed into one section). I cited several sources as well. I am not sure if the downplaying of MDMA's negative effects was propoganda and misinformation or if it was ill-informed wishful thinking- anyway it wasn't factual and that is what I have attempted to correct. This will always be a difficult compromise when users and researchers contribute to the same wiki-entry. Users have a tendency to be in denial of the costs while researchers have a tendency to be moralistic and not interested in the [potential] benefits. jben78wi 6:08, 15 July 2007 (CST)

I'm not particularly impressed with your edits, since you seem to be making a number of claims that can't be checked directly, due to the absence of free links to the articles you're citing. In addition, what is available in article abstracts don't always seem to corroborate the interpretation you place on them. Few people would claim that MDMA is risk free, any more than they would claim alcohol is risk free, but you seem to be making great play of citing sources that document quite marginal effects and blowing them out of all context, as if the effect someone drinking a bottle of absinthe every day has any bearing on the potential effect of one glass a wine a week on someone else. Considering the levels of MDMA consumption in certain countries - even what seem to be conservative official estimates - there seem to be remarkably few "casualties." Nick Cooper 12:06, 15 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I concur, and I'll also note that much of this information is already present in Effects of MDMA on the human body, a fairly well-cited article about the specific physiological effects of MDMA. Everyone keeps complaining about the lack of info here, but no one's even edited the "Effects" article in almost a month. Please try to add highly specific health information to "Effects" instead of here. This article is already way too long, and it needs to cover more than just health risks. Simishag 18:31, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Researchers tend to have an interest in getting grant money as well, much more so than being moralistic. --Funkbrother3000 03:20, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This is an ad hominem circumstantial argument. In the absence of specific evidence of fraudulent or biased research, we should endeavor to give proper weight to peer-reviewed studies, without underhanded accusations of bias towards a POV. A source of funding, alone, is not evidence of bias. Simishag 18:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

On Nick Cooper's comments:

1)These claims can be directly checked, any research-level university library will carry these journals and as a tax-paying citizen you are welcome to visit the library. It is OK to cite peer-reviewed academic articles on wiki-pedia, just as it is okay to cite books that are currently under copyright.

2) On "marginal effects": The effects are not "marginal" effects; massive axonal death of serotonergic neurons is a very acute and specific effect. I think what you mean is "unknown" effects, because the data only suggests that these biological effects may have correlate mental effects in humans.

3) On "bottle of absinthe every day": The Fischer study uses a single dose on a squirrel monkey. Again the data is suggestive. I reworded some of what I wrote to make it more conditional.

4) On "there seem to be remarkably few 'casualties.'": How do you define casualty? These effects are subtle!! I can remove a non-negligible part of your frontal-lobe (where these 5-HT neurons lie) and you and many others will not notice the difference. The potential effects of axonal death here are not going to lead to physical health problems, they will adversely affect memory and decision making in subtle ways.

On Simishag's comments:

1) I didn't know the article Effects of MDMA on the human body existed. I agree that most of these details can be rolled into that article, but I also think there should be a link to that article at the beginning of the MDMA article and at least a summary of it in the MDMA article, because frankly these effects were not mentioned in the safety section of the MDMA article.

2) thanks for moderating.

On Funkbrother3000's comments:

The point on a researcher's interest in grant money. Yes this motivation is an issue but the peer-review process and replication studies usually take care of this. Generally studies with contaminated data come to the fore eventually... for example it was revealed that in one study on dopamine neurons (Principal Investigator: GA Ricaurte) used data from animals administered methamphetamines and not MDMA. It is notable that the authors themselves brought up the issue after their results failed to replicate- it is much worse to have another researcher discover your mistake than for you to discover it yourself.

jben78wi 9:52, 21 July 2007 (CST)

On your comments to me:

1) Please don't make patronising assumptions of what people have access to based on what may be true where you live, but is not necessarily so for every user of English-language Wikipedia.

2), 3) & 4) Whatever they may mean in a specific scientific context, "chronic harm" and "subtle effects" do not sit well together with most people. "Unknown" is a great red herring, but the fact is that MDMA use has been widespread in certain countries for the last twenty years, with more sporadic use going back a further twenty years. To take a specific example, the Home Office's (very conservative) estimate is that it was used by just over half a million people aged 16-59 in England & Wales in the 2005/06 financial year, and that 2.3 million had ever used it. In the full possible range of usage from a single dose to multiples over many years, this has not manifested itself in widespread physical or mental health (or indeed social) problems attributable to MDMA use.

On your comments to Simishag:

1) The effects article was already appropriately linked on this page when you made your edits. Nick Cooper 08:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

1) The effects article was already appropriately linked on this page when you made your edits. Nick Cooper 08:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

To Nick Cooper: Again, it is OK to cite peer-reviewed academic articles on wiki-pedia that are no free to all, just as it is okay to cite books that are currently under copyright. I understand that "chronic harm" and "subtle effects" do not sit well together with most people, but their specific scientific context matters. A drug can cause chronic physical harm and have subtle effects at the same time. Let me explain: chronic physical harm as opposed to acute physical harm (like overdose and death) means that the physical effects can show up from chronic use, e.g. there is more axonal death in serotonernergic neurons of the orbitofrontal cortex through repeated administration of MDMA to laboratory animals and less regeneration after withdrawal of the drug. Now the behavioral effects (not the physical effects) are subtle, an untrained eye will not notice a difference in behavior in these laboratory animals and I am not aware of any study that has investigated the behavioral changes in these animals after prolonged withdrawal. Likewise in humans, it is reasonable to assume there will be chronic physical harm (axonal death), but we know that the behavioral effects in humans are subtle and only obvious to the undiscerning eye in the most extreme cases of MDMA abuse. Nevertheless human users underperform non-users in the subtle tasks used to draw out these behavioral differences such as memory deficits and impulsivity (I cited those in the article). So there exists both chronic physical harm and subtle behavioral effects arising from MDMA. Now what does this mean for MDMA user 20 years from now? The data is only suggestive, so we have to say that the long-term effects in humans are "unknown". Your data citing the widespread use of MDMA without the widespread physical and mental health effects is off base for two reasons: 1) in principle this is not how public health studies are done, you have to control for covariates, 2) the effects of MDMA in all but the most extreme cases do not appear to cause much more than memory impairment and impulsivivity. A raver is much more likely to visit an otolaryngologist for hearing loss than for these subtle effects. We probably both agree that decision makers whether public policy makers, doctors, or users need a clear picture of the risks and potential risks and what evidence there is for this just as they should also know of the benefits and potential benefits. I am not sure what our disagreement is about but I think it is one of emphasis, is relegating this information to the safety and risks sections not enough? In my opinion if you look at the article before I made my entry, the safety and risks section served the purpose of minimizing the research that suggests that even in moderation MDMA may long-lasting effects. Many decision makers would only want to favor a drug in which there are clear and present benefits that outweigh all the risks and uncertainties (unknowns). We both (and Simishag) obviously feel like devoting some of our time towards this article so let's come to some agreement about what the risk and safety section should look like. We might want to break down harm into categories like the recent UK report by Nutt, D. and King, LA and Saulsbury, W. and Blakemore, C. where they have 3 categories of Harm: Physical Harm, Dependency, and Social Harm, each of which have subcatagories, Acute physical harm, chronic physical harm, psychological dependency,physical dependency, intoxication, health care costs, etc... What do you think?

jben78wi 12:27, 22 July 2007 (CST)

I've archived the old discussions and I'm starting a new section for this. The first thing I want to note is that these discussions usually break down along the lines of politics, opinions on the drug war, debates over the perceived emphasis or de-emphasis of this study or that one, including incredibly detailed analyses of why this study or that one belongs or doesn't... Honestly, it's getting old. If you need to get some sleep, read the archived talk pages and see how many times these arguments have been rehashed. Let's all try to assume good faith.

Second, I think we all need to step back for a moment and refocus. This article is fairly long already, although not as long as it once was. It is likely to be the first place a reader looks for information on MDMA, and it needs to cover a wide range of topics. We simply cannot include every single study or every single health risk in this particular article. To do so would unfairly reduce our treatment of: MDMA's history, supply, legal status, importance in the rave subculture, etc. There are many ways of linking to subarticles or additional content that don't involve dumping it all right here.

In response to User:jben78wi on citing sources: Yes, peer-reviewed sources are acceptable regardless of whether they are accessible online. However, it is the responsibility of the editor to cite sources appropriately, and more importantly, to avoid paraphrasing sources unnecessarily. Most of us are not qualified to paraphrase highly technical sources such as the ones used here; this is why the source usually includes an abstract. You have written an incredibly detailed response above on various studies, but how do we know you're representing the sources accurately? It is far more appropriate to quote the source or its abstract, and to let the reader draw their own conclusions. The editor's responsibility in this regard is enhanced when the source itself is not easily available to the average reader. Readers do not necessarily have access to university libraries, nor should they be expected to track down all of the academic sources listed here, nor should they be expected to understand the fine points of every academic study. There is a fine line between providing accurate, concise, encyclopedic summaries, and overwhelming the reader with information. Simishag 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is unclear to me why anyone still advances this "I don't have access to the research articles" red herring. The MAPS database is free to all with an internet connection and has a VERY good collection of the relevant research articles.Blackrose10 08:00, 14 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The current "Health Risks" section focuses too much on long-term unclear risks, and IMHO, constitutes original research, in that it synthesizes the results of a number of sources into new conclusions. If nothing else, the section should be reordered to put the short term risks first. There are well-known, potentially fatal interactions between common MAOI drugs and MDMA; why aren't these noted first? Simishag 20:39, 23 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have a small problem with the part that says that the health risks are ranked "lower than even alcohol". It is insinuating that alcohol is the safest drug, with the lowest risk. Not only is this not impartial, it is flat out untrue. heatsketch, 0804, August 9th

I would presume the only "insinuation" is to compare an widely illegal drug with a widely legal one. Which bit exactly do you think is "untrue"? Nick Cooper 13:04, 9 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Good point Simishag. I also agree with your earlier point. Perhaps there should be a section for known risks and a section for potential/speculative risks... Jben78wi 04:23, 12 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

would using dimethylaminium instead of methylamine make Methylene-dioxy-dimethyl-amphetaminium andif so would it be more potent than MDMA?

Nope —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.117.188 (talk) 10:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

From "Purity" section:

Recent surveys of seized Ecstasy pills indicate that purity levels are generally high, and that adulterants are rare.

The "Health Risks" section includes the following:

The MDMA content of Ecstasy tablets varies widely. They usually contain other substances

These are in direct contradiction of each other. Only the first is sourced. Perhaps the second should be deleted. drone5 09:40, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't necessarily agree. High purity levels doesn't mean 100 percent purity.

Rbuttigi 03:26, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Depends what you mean, i guessPhil Ian Manning 02:21, 10 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could this be made? it would be related to MDMA the same way 4-MTA is to PMA. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.161.0.177 (talk) 04:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

After the introduction, and right before the table of contents, you may notice that the word "JEWS" is written. It does not appear there when editing the page. I find it might be offending and sould not be there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.1.131.205 (talk) 23:11, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand the meaning of PMID in the reference: "Roland W. Freudenmann, Florian Öxler, Sabine Bernschneider-Reif (2006). The origin of MDMA (ecstasy) revisited: the true story reconstructed from the original documents. Addiction 101, 1241–1245. PMID". Is some PMID number missing? Ulner 22:06, 10 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]