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Should the Torneo Federal A be listed here? It's one of the two third-tier Argentine professional leagues, the other being Primera B Metropolitana, which is listed here at FPL. Has there ever been any consensus to include or to exclude this league? I couldn't find anything when searching 'Torneo' in the archive search box. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:28, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, both are, since in the divisions below it players also work part-time. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 15:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How can we judge a league by the degree of work in the tier below it? Geschichte (talk) 17:43, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Geschichte: I can only assume that you didn't read the article I provided. There, it's pretty clear that players in Torneo Federal A and Primera B Metropolitana only play football for a living, while the divisions below it have multiple part-time players. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 20:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Spanish league re-organised in summer 2021, and now there is the old La Liga and Segunda División as well as new Primera División RFEF, Segunda División RFEF and Tercera División RFEF. Has anything changed with the professionalism? GiantSnowman 19:14, 11 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No real change. Primera and Segunda remain fully professional. Primera División RFEF and Segunda División RFEF are semi-professional, and are basically the heir to the old Segunda B. [1] [2] Angelo (talk) 12:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. That Mundo Deportivo article makes that very clear. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:30, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Angelo.romano: @Spiderone: @GiantSnowman: well, not really. According to the RFEF, Primera RFEF is a professional category (Dicha nueva categoría, denominada Primera RFEF, tiene la consideración, a los efectos federativos y de su regulación normativa, como de competición oficial profesionalizada). Earlier in the very same paragraph, they cite that both Segunda RFEF and Tercera RFEF are not pro (Los órganos competentes de la RFEF aprobaron la configuración de una nueva estructura competitiva donde, además, de la Segunda División B (Segunda RFEF) y de la Tercera División (Tercera RFEF), ambas competiciones de ámbito estatal y carácter no profesional,[...]), which is in accordance to the old Segunda B and Tercera, but since Primera RFEF is a completely new division, I can't say that it's not pro, from what I could gather, neither both articles provided by Angelo say so. Plus, if you take a look at the Primera and Segunda División regulations in the RFEF, the description is basically the same (El Campeonato Nacional de Liga de Primera División y el Campeonato Nacional de Liga de Segunda División son competiciones oficiales de ámbito estatal y carácter profesional [...]). BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 04:12, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, players demanded a professional contract and a minimum wage basis before the season started, and the regulations establish that a yearly salary between €20,000 and €30,000 should be paid to all over-23 players in the league. After a short research, I found out that the cost of living in Madrid, the capital, is around €1,600 per month, which would make the yearly costs in around €19,000, less than the very minimum wage established by the RFEF. The national minimum wage is also established in €1,125.8 per month or €13,510 per year, so therefore is another condition that goes in the FPL criteria (adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income). BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 04:21, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So it looks like at least 18 players out of the 23 or 24 must be on professional contracts as per the Footters source. I suppose the question is whether we as a community ought to consider that sufficient to list at FPL or whether it would be better to have that enforced on the entire 23 or 24 and not just those designated as senior players. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 05:34, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are the 6 players left 'youth' or simply not professional? GiantSnowman 07:58, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, I want to stress out the wording from the RFEF document. They specifically use the word "profesionalizado" instead of "profesional" (which is instead used here to refer to Primera and Segunda https://www.rfef.es/sites/default/files/images19/001_primera_y_segunda_division.pdf), which has a subtly different meaning in Spanish, basically hinting at the fact it is not mandatory to be a fully professional club in order to play in the Primera RFEF. Angelo (talk) 10:15, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: They can have youth contracts since they are under the age of 23, but most of them have a professional contract from what I could see. @Angelo.romano: The wording is different, so is the treatment o Primera RFEF to a non-professional division (such as Segunda RFEF and Tercera RFEF), it's very clear in the regulations. It goes into what @Spiderone: said: if the community consider sufficient enough to say the division is a FPL or not. Votes? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 15:08, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: @Angelo.romano: @Spiderone: Any thoughts over this? BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 13:21, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no requirement to be professional then it is not a fully-professional league. GiantSnowman 15:50, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: There is no such statement in the RFEF regulation which says that is "not mandatory" to be a fully professional club, as Angelo stated. I quoted before exactly what the RFEF regulation stated, and it says that the division is professional. If you consider the minimum wage established and the regulations, I see no further evidence that the division may not be considered fully pro. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:42, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Aside from that, I could not find the "subtly different meaning" mentioned before. "Profesionalizada" (or "profesionalizado") means the same as "profesional". Both means "professional". BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That is not true. "Profesionalizado" means "professionalized", as in "on a path toward professionalism", but not inherently professional. I have been living in Barcelona for over five years and I am pretty fluent in Spanish so I am aware of the distinction. The document from RFEF says the league is "professionalized", not "professional", and other links provide to documentation where it explicitly says up to five squad players (regardless of their age) are not required to be under professional contract. Here is one article (in Spanish) digging in detail into the difference between "profesional" and "profesionalizado" [3]. Another one making clear the distinction between the two terms [4] or here [5] where it is defined as "competitions that are not yet professional but have the requisites". Angelo (talk) 07:45, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the wording is different as Angelo says, then it is not professional, is it? GiantSnowman 09:52, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: Sorry about the delay. Even though the wording is different, the standards of the league aren't enough to consider it pro? I'm not doubting @Angelo's response, not even close to that, but if you analyze the facts (minimum wage established, all adult - 23 or older - players under a contract which is enough for them to live by, etc), this is not enough to consider the league professional? Cheers, BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:15, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Adnan Darjal, a candidate for Iraq Football Association presidency, announced his plan to make the Iraqi Premier League fully-professional by the 2022–23 season (source). This obviously implies that the league isn't fully-pro yet. Despite having been the one to advocate for its inclusion in the list in this discussion, I would remove it for now. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:18, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. GiantSnowman 15:00, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that we should remove it until its professional status is confirmed. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:32, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Only issue is that this now means that we have several upon several articles like Ahmed Mohsen and Khudhor Ali that don't meet WP:NFOOTBALL. Not sure what the best course of action is for these. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:36, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've already nominated a few for deletion. Unfortunately, Mohsen and Ali's articles were undetectable under PetScan, as they are incorrectly categorized under Category:Iraq international footballers. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:39, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

5 Reasons Why We Don’t See More Iraqi Footballers In Europe it states that the Players in the Iraqi league receive on average $120,000 a year. and IQD 17,009,645 average salary Iraqi players are full time football players do think it is fully professional.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:01, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Pharaoh of the Wizards: It doesn't necessarily mean that virtually all players in the league earn a livable wage. We just know the average figure. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:15, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The average is an indicator of the league and Iraqi players are full time players do have a livable wage and in Iraq Football is the most popular sport and did compare this wage with the wages in 64 leagues here.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 18:43, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: and @Spiderone: 120K average salary in a league is fully professional.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:02, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If your questionable source says 120k, why has the administrator said it is not fully pro? GiantSnowman 09:30, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hassanin Mubarak, an author of Iraqi football books, has also noted that the plan to make the league professional by 2022 is ambitious (source). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 09:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iraq has a wealth of recourses, but they suffered and lost a lot in the last two decades. It will be a while to rebuild a lot of the countries infrastructure let alone want to have a fully professional top football league in a few years. Govvy (talk) 11:13, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your replies it is fine then that the consensus is that the league is not fully professional. The average football salary in oil rich Iraq is higher than many other countries.Hassanane Balal who stated it is 120k is a London-based journalist and editor who writes on Iraqi Football for over 9 years he is quoted in the media including the Jerusalem Post and is the owner of the website IraqFootball.me.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 15:31, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Guys, I thought a right indication could be made by looking at the AFC Champions League. Iraqi clubs earned licenses to participate. Isn't that enough to be considered 'professional'? Steel Dogg (talk) 16:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently not, according to the now-president of the Iraqi FA. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:43, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So how can we determine if a league is 'fully professional'? What are the criteria? Steel Dogg (talk) 15:03, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per here, an average salary per year stands in approximately 17,000,000 IQD, while the minimum wage stands in 250,000 IQD per month, exactly 3,000,000 per year. From that, we can establish that football players in the country can live comfortably by playing football, and replying to @Steel Dogg:, per the own WP:FPL: A fully professional league is one in which virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income. This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage. The professionalism of the league should also extend to sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport.

From what I could see, there's no indication to prove that the league may not be considered fully-pro per the nation's standards. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 17:52, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Other than the Iraqi FA president stating that the league isn't pro? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:10, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, an average salary isn't the best indicator, as it could be affected by outliers. We don't know what a player in a newly-promoted team earns. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 18:14, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: This conflicts to what is stated in WP:FPL. According to the text on WP:FPL, this league meet the criteria to being considered fully pro. However, this goes under a dillema: the president says the league is not fully pro, so if we consider what he says, then it will open breaches to "overrule" some extensive researches just because the president and/or the federation says so. In the other hand, if we go through and consider this league fully pro, is the correct manner of approaching when the president is saying a different thing? I honestly don't know what to think about this. I would say if we look straight to facts only, this league is in the criteria, but as you said, the president's line may confuse the evaluation of the league as a whole. I would wait until new facts arise, but for now I would remove the league from the main project page. BRDude⁷⁰ (talk) 18:41, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would consider it professional for the reasons mentioned above. Also, the teams are playing in the AFC Champions League again since 2019. Clubs are earning licenses, that means they fulfil the criteria. Steel Dogg (talk) 21:15, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What are your thoughts regarding the president of the Iraqi FA's statement, alongside the fact that we don't have a "minimum" figure, rather an average one? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:20, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Clubs earning AFC CL licenses is just that - some clubs in the league. It doesn't mean the whole league is fully-pro. Look at Uzbekistan, they are playing in CL for ages, yet their league is not considered fully-pro.--BlameRuiner (talk) 13:31, 9 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Santosh Trophy is a national football match conducted in India, which competing with several states in India. "sources"1, 2, 3, 4, 5 Santosh Trophy will have similar compensation standards and structures as Indian Super League (both are same type, but different leagues). And many of the players are common and players from Santosh Trophy get selected to ISL (Indian Super League). All the players are playing for wages & getting payed around approx. 100,000 rupees yearly. As a fully professional league, they are supported by All India Football Federation and I recommend to add this Santosh Trophy league. So unless you also question the inclusion of those two leagues, I don't see any reason why Santosh Trophy wouldn't be included. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 16:22, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@0"cleopatra"0: Only leagues are included here, not knock-out tournaments. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:15, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's a league too. So whats about players in Santosh Trophy? The are also paid but can't write about Santosh Trophy players in wikipedia??? This league is similar to Indian Super League. Please consider & find a research about this Santosh Trophy. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 02:30, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@0"cleopatra"0: By league I mean a competition part of the Indian football league system. It seemed to have been the top-level national league between 1941 and 1996 though. A player playing in a Santosh Trophy game (today) is notable per WP:NFOOTY if both teams are either in the I-League or Super League. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 02:59, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: Santosh Trophy is not a tournament and it is a league match conducted by All India Football Federation (AIFF) under Indian football league system. Compared to Indian Super League, Santosh Trophy has the same value & recognition rather than I-League. Players from Santosh Trophy is getting selected to other 2 Indian national leagues. The teams in Santosh Trophy may vary from other ISL or I-League with team names. Because this is a match with more than 30 teams & Santosh Trophy was started in 1941 as official fully professional national football league in India. 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 17:23, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@0"cleopatra"0: I would wait for other people's opinions before adding it to the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok.take your time and discuss it with other users or administrators. We need other people opinions and public view response about this league, while decision need to be after a high research & confirm me the response in a weak! ASAP Thanks. Regards, 0"cleopatra"0 (talk) 17:54, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The current WP page clearly states that Santosh Trophy is a "knockout competition"; if it's a cup competition, it's not for here. Seany91 (talk) 18:13, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed that it should not be included. GiantSnowman 18:46, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a league, so not for here. Also, the OP has been blocked as sock. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:22, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am still having issues getting my article for Georgia Storm FC approved. According to... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Notability the team should should meet requirements as they have participated in the US Open Cup. 90% of NPSL teams have articles so the "fully professional" requirement appears to not be valid. I know the argument of if ___ has a page, ___ should as well is not a valid point, but I am asking for help determining what is getting the other teams approved but this article is not, especially when the team is meeting one of the requirements. I pointed this out to my reviewer but they haven't responded. Here is my draft: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Georgia_Storm_FC Kevinw33 (talk) 21:02, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevinw33: - the 'fully professional' requirement refers to player notability, not clubs. There are hundreds and hundreds of articles about notable amateur clubs. GiantSnowman 21:07, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GiantSnowman That's what I keep hearing, but my article has been rejected for not passing the phantom "fully professional" requirement by three different reviewers. Kevinw33 (talk) 21:13, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

pinging reviewer @Eternal Shadow: to read this discussion here. 10:51, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Eternal Shadow: Giant, The article was approved and now it has been flagged for possible deletion due to lack of notability. Lol, I feel like I'm being picked on now. Kevinw33 (talk) 12:46, 21 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was the one who moved your draft to mainspace. Another editor added a notability tag, but you can improve or remove on your own. No one has initiated a PROD or AfD proceedings. Seany91 (talk) 06:34, 22 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A somewhat related point is that WP:RA's football section contains many requested NPSL teams, and many of them are redirects. Is it beneficial to have these redirects, or should they be RFD'ed? Geschichte (talk) 17:39, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am confused how the source provided suggests that the league is fully pro. [6] , can someone explain that to me, I was checking because this 2020-2021 Ashanti Gold S.C season popped up in the new page feed. Govvy (talk) 12:12, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article strongly suggests that the league isn't fully-pro ("if a player is receiving GHC 500 or 1000 and that person has rent to pay and has a girlfriend or wife with kids its a difficult situation to combine"). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 13:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The quite suggestive that the Ghanian Premier League shouldn't be in the full pro list. Govvy (talk) 15:34, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I searched through the archives to see if a discussion ever took place prior to inclusion but couldn't find one. Interestingly, if you check Archive 12, you can clearly see that User:ArsenalFan700 raised it as a dubious inclusion but it didn't get discussed further. I would support removing the league from the list unless a better source comes forward. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:43, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the time, there wasn't even a mention of the league in the source at all. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:48, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Happy for its removal. GiantSnowman 20:13, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ye, I think it should be removed also. Govvy (talk) 20:32, 25 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy:, @GiantSnowman:, @Nehme1499:, @ArsenalFan700: are you happy if I boldly remove this league from the list for now? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:41, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. GiantSnowman 19:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've removed it for now. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499, Based on the sources, the Ghana Premier League has been a professional league since 16 September 1993. [7][8][9] The 1993-1994 season on wards has been was a professional league. [10], Using the article which talks about GHC 500 or 1000, can not be a reference to take off the article. That amount is the minimum wage in Ghana. The player who made that statement is someone who has moved out of Ghana and is playing outside Ghana so would definitely say the minimum wage should be raised. That doesn't mean that the league is not a professional league. Ampimd (talk) 10:49, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499 @Spiderone, Based on sources provided by Ampimd,The Ghana Premier League is actually a Professional league and only one reference cannot guarantee that the League should be delisted. Players who play in Ghana do not do any other additional work for income and that the amount stated is a minimum wage in Ghana Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I looked through the sources, the first talks about going professional, and others just mirror that first one. The league themselves saying they are professional is a primary source, however it doesn't really tell us how professional they are. From the evidence provided I am inclined to believe the league operates semi-professional. Govvy (talk) 11:17, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the sources presented here are insufficient to confirm the fully-professional nature of the league. GiantSnowman 11:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you explain what you mean by the league is not fully professional? If the sources are saying the league is professional? Ampimd (talk) 11:22, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

[11] Page 134 of this book talks about the league being a professional league since 1993. If there are about three sources, Two from the Ghana Football Association, one from Modern Ghana, one from a book. What other sources would be needed to show that the league is a professional league. Obviously the Ghana Football Association are the authority to make the league a professional league by making the laws. I actually dont know what other sources you would want to prove that its a professional league. The league was initially a semi-professional league but in 1993 it was made a professional league just as the sources state. Ampimd (talk) 11:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The source from Modern Ghana is not a mirror of the other kindly check the dates. Ampimd (talk) 11:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The one from the Ghana Football Association, talks about the particular day the first match was played. The one from Modern Ghana talks about when the law was passed and the people on the Professional Premier League Board. I would also like to find out why you are basing all your statements on just one source talking about GH500 or GH 1000. Ampimd (talk) 11:28, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the paragraph written in the first cite you gave. "It also said that with effect from the 1993/94 season all first division clubs shall enter into a contractual agreement with their players, to bring them to a non- amateur status. Furthermore it urged first division clubs to register not less than 16 non amateur players for the 1993/94 season." Hmm, "non- amateur status"! And does that also imply they can still have a number of players without actually needing to pay them??

Not mirrored? It's the same image and the same word for word of the first paragraphs! Govvy (talk) 11:29, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly it states that non-amateur status that means professional. The players were initially amateur players until this law was passed and there for they became professionals or non-amateur players. It did not say amateur players. It said non-amateur=professional. Ampimd (talk) 11:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's all suggested, that does not mean it has been done know. Govvy (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@ArsenalFan700 @GiantSnowman @Govvy @Nehme1499 @Spiderone, How exactly? I personally do not get the point of the league not being a professional league when references have been provided to show it is. Who would be in the best position to state something? If the Bundesliga official page says that they are no more a professional league would you wait for another source to state it before you take it off?

Because the best people to say the league is a professional league and has moved from the amateur level to professional level is the people who organise the league. In this case the Ghana Football Association. They have stated that since 1993 the league is no more an amateur league. But you are not convinced, which I don't understand. It may be a primary source, yeah but it is a reliable source. We reference a lot of the premier league statements with references from the premier league, especially the history, the stats, awards. I think if the organizer is stating that the first professional league was the 1993-1994 due to a law they passed in September 1993 why are you then saying it is not true and that the league is not professional and that they are just suggesting it is. I can hardly get your point in this case. The complete history of the Ghana Football League, 1958-2012, states also that the league has been a professional league since then. The league or board or the association is not waiting for another time to state that the league is a professional league because that was done in 1993 and has been reiterated over the years including those articles and references I gave. Everything about the league is being organized as a professional league not an amateur league or a soon to be professional league or semi professional league. If it is concluded that the league is not an professional league that would be harmful considering the number of content that has been added due to it being a professional league because there wouldnt be anytime in this life where the league, board, association or anyone would put out a statement to say that the league is not professional league when it has been done already. That's what I have to say. I don't know which other means to prove it. Ampimd (talk) 12:25, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Govvy, Kindly check this article [12] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Robertjamal12: They article may say Premier League and Professional, however have a look at our list and see how many Premier Leagues there are that are semi-professional. I am not saying you're wrong, I don't see enough defined statements in those citations to suggest that the league is fully professional. I would need to see clear defined documentation for that to happy. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Govvy (talk) 11:50, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy:, The statement clearly said it is professional and please can tell what kind of reference or defined statement you need. If there is any source or other suggestions that state that it is not professional, I'm happy to know because the League became professional in 1993 and operating as a professional league. -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 11:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - @Robertjamal12: If you can verify the statement Players who play in Ghana do not do any other additional work for income and that the amount stated is a minimum wage in Ghana with a source then surely the league will be added back Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 12:26, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone: The minimum wage in Ghana is ¢12.53 per day, if this is multiplied by the number of working days per month mostly between 20-22, if 20, then means ¢250.6, if 21=¢263.13, if 22=¢275.66. Meanwhile, the initial article you stated said they earn between ¢500-¢1000. That amount is more than the minimum wage per month across the country and also fixtures are played every week sometimes including mid week till the end of the season. Kindly check this [13].[14] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 13:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I just came across this talk thread and I must say our measure for what a fully professional league is has not even been backed by any sources from Fifa or all the various countries running those leagues. If Wikipedia wants to be truly inclusive we must listen to people with lived experience in places that they speak about. Life in Ghana is completely different from Europe, America and Asia more so Ghana is a developing country so we cannot first of all be setting certain standards which is completely unfair to countries from some part of Africa. Ghana runs a fully professional league and we can verify that by visiting the pages of GFA the body mandated by Fifa to run our league.[15]. Also here is a link to the champion of Ghana's league participating in the CAF Champions League just two weeks ago[16] I wonder if by that standards too then CAF Champions League is not a professional league too.[17]. In my humble opinion the definition of what a Fully Professional League is must be looked at again.Owula kpakpo (talk) 13:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well there you have it, @Spiderone per what @Robertjamal12 just provided. I made an initial statement that, Richmond Boakye Yiadom's statement cannot be used as the basis to take off the article. The player has played across Europe where the minimum wage is higher and players salaries are higher. Based on that he sees the wages in Ghana as being low. But considering the minimum wages in Ghana, the amount the players receive is higher than the minimum wage in Ghana under the labour act. Meanwhile this review of the labour wages review was done in 2021, whilst Boakye Yiadom's statement was made in 2020 when the wage was ¢11.82 per day. Considering that then the players were receiving over 50% of the minimum wage then. The statement he made was relative to wages in Europe. Its very subjective. Ampimd (talk) 14:14, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It's the original cite next to the league name on the list that bothered me, it appears that striking it off the FPL list seems to have produced some better sourcing from you guys. Even still, as long as there is sufficient citation towards showing the League is fully pro, I don't mind it going back on. I do feel the link Ghana Premier League players will be paid monthly salary of GHC 1,500- NDC much more valuable to variability that the league is more professional than I thought. Govvy (talk) 14:34, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I understand the fact that the initial cite was problematic. But basing the removal on Boakye Yiadom's is also problematic in my opinion. That was his views and they are subjective. The wages or standard of living in Ghana is different from living outside Ghana. There is a constant talk of increasing the general wages across all fields in the country everyday on radio, television, seminars, parliament and the likes. Which is valid every one wants a better life and wants to have more. The league is professional. I hope the it would relisted. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 14:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it just me, or is it a bit weird that right after the Ghana PL was removed from the FPL, two other Ghana-based editors suddenly participated in this discussion? Is seems as if Ampimd asked a couple of friends to pretty much reiterate what he has already said (without really adding other points of view). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:13, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499:, but why should this be weird? Ghana based editors giving reliable sources about a Ghana-related article?. Every one of us has an interest in one thing or another, so if Ghanaian editors are interested in Ghana related articles, what's weird about that? Moreover, I created the article that led to this discussion and it's better we all come to one understanding rather than pointing fingers which you can't prove.Why should you even just say without any evidence that he reached out to us. Please lets all follow the thread and have a conclusion. Thank you--- Robertjamal12 (talk) 15:59, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499:, This article This article does not suggest that the league isn't fully-pro as you say. Kindly check the minimum wage in Ghana [18] and [19] -- Robertjamal12 (talk) 16:09, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do not get it wrong. I have been editing Wikipedia articles for a while. I have encountered all of you on other discussions, this is not the first time. Kindly do not redirect this issue and belittle it in such a way. In this case it is an about Ghana Premier League which I have edited extensively on and so affects me directly. The other editors, @Robertjamal12 is the creator of the 2020-2021 Ashanti Gold S.C season, I believe is the reason he is taking part in this discussion.

I would respectfully ask that you do not connect their involvement in the discussion to your interpretation. @Govvy @GiantSnowman @Spiderone or even you @Nehme1499, is the this the first time you have come across any article created by me or edited by me or my involvement in a discussion? I have been busily trying to add up contents related to African football, Ghanaian football, African Women's football and realizing that the articles I have created a dozen of them have a connection with the Ghana Premier League. I have given my views and citation of what makes it a professional league.

The two others I believe have given their points based on statements they have gotten or found. or what they believe it is. I am not sure it is just based on what I added. We are all here for neutrality, kindly do not conclude in such a manner. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 15:33, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to be clear: my "suspicion" comes from the fact that two new editors (who aren't really involved in football-related articles on Wikipedia), participated in this discussion after the league has been removed, rather than while the discussion was ongoing. It just felt a bit like WP:FORUMSHOPing to me. Regardless, my lack to WP:AGF is unwarranted, so I apologize. I'm neutral regarding the professional status of the Ghana PL given the sources at hand. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:21, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So the My Joy Online article says Some top flight players earn as little as GHS 400 monthly. but my understanding from the calculations above is that this is still above minimum wage, am I right? There's probably enough of a case for the league to go back on then. As someone who patrols new articles quite regularly, I am quite familiar with User:Ampimd and their extensive work on Ghanaian football biographies. I don't see anything suspicious about their involvement or Robertjamal's in this discussion. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 17:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone Exactly, based on that source along with the calculations it means the that it is still above the minimum wage. Ampimd (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone Over here you made it clear that then that the information provided is enough of a case for the league to go back on then

So what changed? Are we disregarding every information given? I figured there had been progress but then all of a sudden back to zero. Ampimd (talk) 19:53, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499 apology accepted. I am aware you are ensuring the right thing is done, so am I. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 17:43, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy, @GiantSnowman, @Nehme1499, @Spiderone, I believe a consensus has been reached now and so the league would have to be relisted as a professional league to make it easy to create articles related to it. Ampimd (talk) 22:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, there is no such consensus. GiantSnowman 11:48, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kindly keep page, we can't say the league is unprofessional because of only a comment made by a player concerning remuneration. The Ghanaian League has been function for a long time as a professional body and it has birthed great player who we need not to talk about their salary when they started before they moved to higher heights like Ibrahim Sunday,Osei Kofi, Abedi Pele,Tony Yeboah,Stephen Appiah,Charles Taylor, Bernard Dong Bortey,Nana Arhin Duah, Joe Hendricks,Stephen Oduro and more,they made a huge impression on our league before moving out. Some of them won huge or major titles like CAF Champions League and CAF Confederation Cup so if the league was not professional how would these tournament not be recognized by FIFA as a body.Jwale2 (talk) 14:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Where are the reliable sources confirming categorically that the league is fully professional? GiantSnowman 15:00, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you disregarding all the factors and all the statements I proved above? The definition of What is a "fully professional" league? does not say that it must be written somewhere categorically. Moreover I have given you facts to prove that it was a professional league.

The statement from the Ghana Football Association may be a primary source. If that is the case why do you use statements from the Premier League to reference statements on the Premier League page. Is it that their statement is more reliable? and when the Ghana Premier League says theirs it is not? Ampimd (talk) 15:10, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This decision was made in September 1993. Digital media was not even available here but you have been given facts and statements to prove that it was Ampimd (talk) 15:12, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have proved even that the guys statement is subjective. You can not use one person's statement to take it off. Not even from the Ghana Football Association president or CAF president, interesting, from a footballer. Ampimd (talk) 15:14, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone At the moment I am waiting on a consensus to make it easy to create articles in relation to the Ghana Premier League if not then all my efforts in the past and draft articles would all be a waste. Anyway, [20] this article also talks about Ashanti Gold S.C. being the first team to win the league when it went professional. I made it clear that if this is insisted on and taken off entirely, then never in this life would anything related to the Ghana Premier League be created on Wikipedia because there would never be a day when the Ghana Football Association would state that the league is now professional. That action has already taken place.

In terms of wages, that has been proven and cleared based on the wages and minimum wages in Ghana. There is no way the wages in Ghana would be the same as the wages in England, Serbia, China, Italy which are countries that Richmond Boakye has played in. His statement can not be the basis to remove the League from the FPL list, his statement is subjective. Notwithstanding, per what is above the wages are above the minimum wages in the country, which is what the FPL defines a Professional Football League. It states as 'This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage.' In this case it is above it. With this I do not which other way to prove that the league is actually a professional league.

The administrators of the league are the ones who declare, from the above and other discussions, I noticed that per the statements of the administrators of the respective league, the league is either removed from the list or maintained. In this case the administrators also state that the league has been a professional league since September 1993, with the first match being played in December 1993.

[21] This article also talks about the league going professional in 1993. I wish a consensus can be reached on this if not then it would be hard to create articles regarding Ghana Premier League, which in turn would mean my subject of interest would be unavailable. Thank you. Ampimd (talk) 13:06, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone, In most of the Leagues listed on the FPL list, their timeframes are not even added, in this particular case the timeframe has been confirmed and rectified in terms of when is became a professional league. I am finding it hard on exactly why it is not being accepted and what other things to add up to show that it is a professional league. Ampimd (talk) 13:26, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ampimd I have no objection to it being reinstated with a source clearly stating the minimum salary and preferably another to confirm that the players are all full-time. This FIFA report makes for some interesting reading - there are 1608 professional players in Ghana and there is a player association. Interestingly, this report has no record of a minimum salary. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 18:27, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quite interesting how that report actually states that the Ghanaian league is a professional league as well, with Ghana having the most number of professional clubs in Africa. Which is actually the truth and confirms that Ghana Premier League is a professional league Ampimd (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because the report states the leagues which are not professional and are amateur. Ampimd (talk) 18:38, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@SpideroneI just found this particular article kindly check it out if this satisfies it. [22] The article confirms my point, the amount is the minimum but obviously can get better and so its subjective. This article states that's a monthly salary of $100. Ampimd (talk) 18:42, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone,[23],[24], all these two articles and books, talk about the monthly salaries being at least $100. This is the same amount as GH¢400, depending on the exchange rate. Based on that that is the minimum salary and as I made it clear the minimum salary is above the wages. Ampimd (talk) 18:49, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - @Spiderone, I want to find out that if FIFA lists the Ghana Premier League as a professional league, and lists the Niger Premier League as a semi-professional league, why are we trying as much as possible to list the Ghana Premier League as a semi-professional league? This does not look right. If the regulators have classified all the leagues per the report you shared then why are we saying then that it isn't? Ampimd (talk) 19:34, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499 can you kindly let me know your opinion and please go to the sources I have provided above along with the points I have made. Ampimd (talk) 20:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Spiderone this article Football in Asia: History, Culture and Business edited by Younghan Cho page 116 refers to basic salary received by Ghanaian Footballers. Kindly check. Ampimd (talk) 14:42, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ampimd: That's the average, though. It doesn't indicate that everyone earns a liveable wage. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 14:49, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can you give me a reference of any of the other leagues that points out that the amount given is a liveable wage? I went through the FPL list, a lot of them do not provide these sources or reference to show whether its a liveable wage.

In anyway, This is from the definition ''This salary should be a living wage in the nation where the league is based, and preferably around or above the average or median national wage.''

Above I provided evidence to show that the amount is a liveable wage and that the statement was from someone who had played outside the country and would definitely say wish the wages were as in the Western World. After I provided that evidence that the wage is beyond the liveable wage by giving the average or median national wage, you guys still insisted it was not enough. I provided evidence of the average or median national wage along with others and placed it against the wages of the footballers. Kindly check above.

Cultural Sport Psychology By Robert Schinke, Stephanie J. Hanrahan This also talks about the basic salary. Ampimd (talk) 14:59, 19 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To me it sounds a bit dubious that Albania can support two tiers of fully professional football. The second tier is listed at FPL because of one mention in a rulebook: "A player can be registered to a team participating in the Albanian Superliga or Albanian First Division only as a professional player". However, I think the use of the standalone word professional, which can mean several things, is too vague to prove full professionalism. I think it's so strange that Albania is listed with two fully professional tiers whereas Montenegro, Macedonia and Latvia have none - that I think it the claim should be substantiated further. How is the economy really on the Albanian second tier? Geschichte (talk) 21:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that a source saying that a league is "professional" isn't enough. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 21:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In my eyes, economy is tied to club income, which has different sources; sponsors, media revenue and match attendance. Weltfussball has match attendance from the last pre-covid season, of which I've sampled a few from different stadiums: 800, 700, 800, 500, 300, 1200, 700. Seems pretty low, though much higher than e.g. the Baltic countries, it's on par with the biggest teams in the Faroe Islands. It can also be reiterated that all the teams need to have a professional economy in order for a league to be fully professional. Geschichte (talk) 09:11, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Should we remove it from the list then? Geschichte (talk) 18:35, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly. We need a better source, in any case. I'm pinging a few regular Albanian contributors to see if they can prove that this league is fully pro @Oltianruci:, @MercedesBenz240:, @BalkanianActuality: Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:40, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am pretty certain that the top divisions of countries like Montenegro and Latvia are fully professional. On the other hand i have no clue how that FPL list works, i see a lot of pro leagues missing there. What would you consider as a proper source? MercedesBenz240 (talk) 15:44, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MercedesBenz240 we're looking for something that confirms that every player in that league is full-time and that they don't need to have a 2nd job just to have a decent living. This is why Geschichte is looking at the figures above and not sure if this league is truly professional. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 16:11, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, i will try to find something. MercedesBenz240 (talk) 18:03, 13 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MercedesBenz240 did you manage to find anything? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 20:00, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No, sorry. I personally know for a fact that players in this division are full time professionals, but i couldn't find anything that specifically proves it on the internet. MercedesBenz240 (talk) 23:29, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, thanks for taking a look. Geschichte and Nehme1499 do you have any further thoughts? On one hand, we should always AGF where we can but, on the other hand, it seems difficult to keep a league on the list without a valid source. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 08:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

My biggest thought is how the league would be fully professional. What supports it economically? Since it may not be the attendance, sponsors and owners are other options, and it shouldn't be impossible to find sources about that. On another note, Mercedes Benz iterated that "players in this division" are pro, but there's a difference between that and the entirety of the player base being pro. Geschichte (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, I think that's it. No doubt there are a large number of professional players there but it seems doubtful from the information above that all players are full-time and making a good living from football. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 21:59, 8 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, I also have my doubts about whether regular players in the Albanian second tier actually pass GNG. Take Artion Alillari and Mateo Allkja. Would any reasonable interpretation of GNG give them a pass? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 23:19, 23 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Bangladesh Premier League can be considered as "fully professional" since it fills the criteria's required, such as player salary and spornsorships:^[1][2][3][4].The league also fills the "fully professional" criteria by having the required facilities and equipments ^[5].Red004 (talk) 11:13, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This confirms that foreign players get paid a good salary, but not all players; the other sources only confirm there is sponsorship in the league. That is irrelevant, sponsorship happens at most levels of football to some degree. Where is the source that says all players are paid a full time wage? GiantSnowman 11:40, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

^[6] this article should confirm that even the domestic players get paid full time wage.Red004 (talk) 15:34, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That same source that says "All the footballers are not getting big amounts. The number of players getting big paycheques is very small [...] While the top names in domestic football, especially the national team players, are drawing big bucks, the ones who are usually not on the fringes of the national team are getting much less, which is also reflected in the total payments of clubs which usually occupy the mid and lower part of the table" and therefore does not confirm the fully professional nature of the league? GiantSnowman 15:47, 8 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Coming in a little late, but the whole point of according presumptive notability to a league is the presumption that each and every player who has ever so much as taken the pitch for five minutes can reasonably meet the GNG. This shouldn't be just handed out like so much popcorn. As GiantSnowman accurately states, damn near every level of sports has sponsorship: Little League kiddie teams in America have been having uniform sponsors for many decades. Ravenswing 11:37, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, just bring Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Drilon Ajeti to people attention as the author Ardihaliti2000 has claimed that the league is now fully professional citing https://www.ffk-kosova.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/rregullorja-statusi-lojtareve-2021.docx as evidence of this. Regards KylieTastic (talk) 19:56, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Ardihaliti2000: Would it be possible to quote the relevant section here and translate it? --SuperJew (talk) 21:11, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A small point regarding the "regulatory status" which is my offhand translation of "rregullorja statusi". There's a huge difference between legal professional status and actual professionalism in our sense. In Norway for instance, the third highest tiers for men and the highest league for women constitute the "top level of football" operating with so-called professional contracts. However most of these players work other jobs, so they and 3/4 of the mentioned leagues are not fully professional. Geschichte (talk) 21:17, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Agree; ideally we need a reliable, third-party source clearly stating the league is fully-pro, not questionable wording from the organisation itself. GiantSnowman 22:18, 6 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Having had a look through the list of non-pro leagues, a lot of the sources provided for African leagues are weak/outdated; I feel there are multiple African leagues that could possibly pass the FPL criteria and there is a need for stronger sourcing to categorically distinguish these leagues into those that pass or fail the guideline.

This Goal.com article quotes average mnothly salaries for multiple non-FPL African leagues: Angola's Girabola pays $25,000, the Linafoot in DR Congo averages $20,000, Sudan averages $15,000 and the domestic leagues in Zambia, Ethiopia, Mozambique, Tanzania and Botswana all have average salaries between $3,000 and $10,000, which suggests players receive a decent living wage in those leagues. The standard of sourcing for these leagues being non-fully pro varies greatly:

• Girabola (Angola) - a link to an archived article is seemingly provided, but the page doesn't exist, so there is no source.
• Linafoot (DR Congo) - BBC Afrique article provided states that working conditions for players are poor, but this seems too tangentical to the league's professionalism to be able to categorically state that the league is not professional
• Sudan Premier League - the first source is a Goal.com article from 2009 that writes that 'the stakeholders have to be a lot more professional', but appears to be using the word in a very general sense. The second is from 2011 and the quoted text highlights two points: the dominance that two teams exert over the league (irrelevant to FPL status) and heavy government funding for the league (somewhat relevant perhaps, but not enough on its own for me).
• Zambia Super League - sourcing is enough to suggest that it wasn't an FPL as of 2015, but more recent sourcing may be helpful.
• Ethiopian Premier League - link is dead but archive link works and is sufficient to show non-professionalism
• Moçambola (Mozambique) - first article is a dead link, but archived page exists; it seems to say half of clubs don't own their stadia before going off on a tangent, but its in Portuguese so idk. no comment on second ref as its in portuguese and I dont understand it.
• Tanzanian Premier League - google translate of article suggests there are concerns over standards of stadia and refereeing
• Botswana Premier League - first source quotes then national team manager Peter Butler in describing the league as "semi professional" in 2016; second source, also from 2016, asserts league transitioning to be professional.

I am happy to accept the sources for Zambia and Ethiopia to be sufficient, and the Botswana source is probably good enough, but I'd like to see better sources for the other leagues. Language barriers and lack of reporting prevent me from finding good sources myself, so am asking if anyone can provide sources to support or contradict these leagues being fully-pro. Many thanks, Microwave Anarchist (talk) 20:40, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think your analysis is very well-done (I'm blindly trusting that what you have written above is true). Given the info presented, I would have no issues moving the leagues above (bar Zambia, Ethiopia and Botswana) to fully-pro. Keeping a league as non-FP just because of a 2009 article that says that "the stakeholders have to be more professional" is ridiculous, especially when presented with a more recent source that shows the league to pay $15,000 a month (on average, though, which is a slight problem). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 20:57, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: I would probably want something more substantive than average wage figures before considering moving them to fully pro, especially given the goal article is only one source and the fully pro definition requires things like "sufficient contact hours, and facilities, equipment, expenses and other support", but these seem difficult to find or source. I would support removing them from the not-fully pro list until better sources can be located however. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 21:08, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think that every league which is not demonstrated to be fully pro, belong in the non-fully pro by default. Geschichte (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Geschichte: Why? If the source cannot demonstrate that the league is not fully-pro, we should not claim that that is the case. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:29, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Because if it's not fully professional, it is necessarily non-fully professional. It doesn't make sense to place some borderline leagues in a "void" or "limbo" between f-p and n-f-p. Geschichte (talk) 12:47, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You cant say it's not fully professional if there are no sources to say that is the case. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:32, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The onus is on you to prove that it's fully pro, not the other way around. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 00:37, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, but if it can't be demonstrated to be either fully-pro or not fully-pro, it doesn't belong on either list. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

And for the record, I don't care which category these leagues belong in; I just want to ensure that it is correct and verifiable. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 00:44, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So the average player in DR Congo earns 1 million dollar in 4 years? (240,000 a year = 960,000) Hmmmmmm... This CNN article states the wages at TP Mazembe (2010) were 3,000 a week, i.e. 156,000 a year, and that this kind of "money dwarfs every other team on the continent". Most of the other Linafoot teams obviously trail behind, Vita Club and Daring Motema Pembe maybe not that far behind, but many other teams astronomically far behind. Geschichte (talk) 12:56, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Geschichte: How are wage values from 2010 relevant? The wages have likely increased significantly in 10 years so it would be patently absurd to use figures from one club 10 years ago as evidence here. I'm a little dubious of the figures cited by this article but if the source says that "the average player in DR Congo earns 1 million dollar in 4 years", we need to disprove that with more than blind assertions. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 16:37, 9 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Had a quick search for some more refs that may be useful: this interview suggests that Zambia Super League players earn significantly more than in the Nigerian Professional Football League, and this cites wage figures around $5,000/month for many Zambian sides; this suggests, as of 2016, that many smaller Congolese sides only pay "200 to 300 dollars per month", which is low but above the average income there, though also that many clubs are financially insecure. This suggests some players in Angola are on a wage of $28, but doesn't specify whether this is a weekly or monthly value, though that below what one would expect of an FPL either way. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 01:03, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This will be a difficult subject to find sources for, but I was reading an article from a South Korean website, interviewing a defector(?) to South Korea in 2002, and he says that North Korean footballers do not need to work, and are paid more than the average worker - source. This source also says that "different salaries are paid to all selected players according to the player rating criteria".

Obviously the average wage in North Korea is very low, but isn't the parameter for "fully professional" just that all senior players are paid, and that they are making above the national average? I'm also aware of the two sources on the main project page claiming the league to be amateur, but this is clearly contradictory, and I don't see why South Korean sources would lie about the league being professional. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 19:18, 28 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I whole-heartedly believe that the Super League Greece 2 ceased to be fully professional in 2021. The league was expanded from 12 to 32 teams. While the economy might very well have been good enough to support 12 pro teams in 2020-21, this can surely no longer be the case. Up to 10-15 pro teams, ok, but I'd say that a claim of 32 pro teams is in dire need of verification. The 2021-22 edition includes two teams with a stadium capacity of 600 and 700. I'm having difficulty finding the actual match attendances. Geschichte (talk) 11:11, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fully agree. GiantSnowman 15:24, 8 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Have to also agree on that assessment, Greece has been having a lot of trouble financially so it's easy to see problems within the Greek leagues. However you didn't provide any sources to backup your post here. Govvy (talk) 10:59, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't looked for any, since I only employ common sense here and don't read Greek, I asked a Greek editor to attend to this discussion though. We probably don't have a source to back up that the league is professional in 2021 either... Geschichte (talk) 12:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Swiss Challenge League is fully professional and should be added to the list. Together with the Swiss Super League, it forms the Swiss Football League, which is responsible for professional football in Switzerland. They work in conjuction with the Erste Liga — semi-professional as per article 1(3) and 1(4) — and the amateur levels of the pyramid, each governed by their respective bodies.

In addition, as per the official regulations, specifically article 6(1), players must be in possession of a work contract to be eligible for registration. It essentially excludes amateur players from competing. --Cslk (talk) 20:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any regulation about the players needing to be full-time footballers (i.e. not relying on a 2nd job to support their income) or about a minimum salary? Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 13:14, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There's only a distinction between "non-amateur" and amateur and from the articles I could find, a minimum wage has been discussed but not yet introduced -- note this applies to both the Super League and the Challenge League, since their regulations are identical. Instead I have an article that states footballers on average earn a living wage, admittedly in the case of the smallest clubs one that's closer, but still above the poverty line (= earning enough to train full-time).

Additionally the regulations use the same wording as the sources German 3. Liga and Austrian 2. Liga reference (both of which are on the list). Incidentally, judging by this article, Austrian 2. Liga players were actually right on the poverty line before covid. Let me know if I gotta translate anything. Cslk (talk) 00:03, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

There is implicitly a minimum wage laid out the regulations, however it's so low that I highly doubt anyone is actually being paid that little. At article 2(3), the regulations refer to the Wettspielreglement of the Swiss Football Federation (found here) to distinguish between amateur and non-amateur players. These in turn say, at article 139, that an amateur player may receive reimbursement of their actual expenses, plus an expense allowance of up to 500 francs per month. Anyone earning more, is considered a non-amateur. Both regulations also require a labour or employment contract (arbeitsvertrag) for non-amateurs, and I'd like to think paying someone as little as 500 francs per month would probably run afoul of Swiss labour laws. I'd say the regulation do allow for possibility that the league is not within the scope of this list. Whether or not it actually is, is another question entirely. Sir Sputnik (talk) 00:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]