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I thought I'd compile a list of all of the current FIFA member countries (and their top divisions) which are currently missing from the list, hopefully this can serve as a point of reference so that all of these leagues may be added in the future. S.A. Julio (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Total missing: 0 (92 at initial posting)

I'm not sure I understand why we need both a list of FPL leagues and also a list of leagues which aren't FPL. Clearly if a league is not on the FPL list, it's not FPL, so what's the point? --SuperJew (talk) 19:19, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not being on the list may also mean status is unknown or that references cannot be found (there are a few countries that almost certainly have fully-pro leagues, but it's been difficult to source). I think your statement is probably applicable to women's leagues though, as a league being fully-pro would be unusual and probably highlighted somewhere. Number 57 20:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume the main (if not only) use of this list is to know if a league is FPL in relevance to WP:NFOOTY. In that case, if a league is not on the FPL list, it doesn't matter if it's because it's confirmed as not FPL or if it's unknown, a player playing in the league wouldn't be considered notable. --SuperJew (talk) 20:23, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if I'm misunderstanding it, but your point doesn't seem to make sense. If we have a player in a league whose status is currently unclear, we don't know whether they pass WP:NFOOTY or not. Number 57 20:56, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Number 57: Say for example there's a player who's only played in the Ecuadorian Serie A at an AfD. Would you say keep or delete based on WP:NFOOTY? --SuperJew (talk) 22:10, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No-one would be able to !vote either way on the basis of WP:NFOOTY because we don't know the league's professional status. Number 57 22:26, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If only the verified fully professional leagues were included, that would imply all other leagues missing from the list are not fully professional, which isn't necessarily true. Having two lists is helpful in knowing which leagues are still undetermined. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:16, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So what's going on with the Ecuadorian Serie A, is it a FPL? I want to know if I can create a page for a player. Cam (talk) 11:49, 4 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Based on this guideline, no. However that doesn't mean an article can't be produced if you can cite sufficient third party coverage to satisfy GNG. Fenix down (talk) 09:43, 22 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't say, that a player has to be a pro (in most league in Europe a player can make an apperance even if he is not a pro, eg a junior). It says that only professional contracts can be signed. There is no such thing as an "amateur contract" in slovenian first league, all contract listed in the pdf are professional contracts. That is the vast majority of players in the league. Ludost Mlačani (talk) 10:35, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I've always scratched my head on why it's so difficult to find Honduran and especially Costa Rican references about profesionality (one way or another). And watching such teams play, and knowing that they are televised internationally, I've scratched my head on how the top league isn't fully professional. Someone recently brought this 2016 reference] about the Costa Rican Liga FPD to my attention. I'm told that these are monthly salaries, and the minimum reported is equivalent to that of an average rural wage. But there's only 4 teams here, I don't really know how far down the depth the minimum salary is, etc. But it's the best information one way or another I've seen. I'm not providing a recommendation - just passing on what I've seen. Nfitz (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a heads up, Costa Rica was added to fully-pro list (along with their second division) a month ago, although there was no consensus reached here on talk page. Not sure how good is the provided reference since I don't know Spanish. It looks like official regulations for 2019 domestic leagues.--BlameRuiner (talk) 07:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have no idea where the Segunda Division even came from, considering the source is just the UNAFUT statutes, which only says that the clubs and players and staff of the first division are professional (without confirming fully pro) and literally does not mention the Segunda at all. Costa Rica has a strong league though and picking a couple redlinked players on Saprissa it takes a couple Google pages to confirm (thanks transfermarkt) but the top of the league at least should all pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 07:50, 18 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For anyone with the time and knowledge of the Spanish language, there is a lot of details on the Liga Nacional de Fútbol Profesional de Honduras website - a list of notes from the president, which may give clarification can be found here - and even better, a list of league regulations can be found here. The Honduran league is often referred to as professional in Honduran media,^[1][2][3] though I don't know if this is enough to grant it a place on the list. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:11, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Further to this, this document confirms the professional status of the league:

ARTÍCULO 14.-
Los Clubes Afiliados se obligan a:
...
6) Celebrar contratos por escrito en el formato autorizado por la LIGA debiendo
ser su contenido impreso con todos y cada uno de sus jugadores, cuerpo
técnico, los cuales deberán ser registrados obligatoriamente en la Secretaría de
la Liga. Requisitos que están regulados en el Reglamento de Registro de
Jugadores y Cuerpos Técnicos de la Liga Nacional de Futbol Profesional.

A rough Google translation tells us that all affiliated clubs in the league must enter into written contracts with each and every one of your players, technical bodies, which must be registered with the secretary of the league. If this isn't enough to confirm professional status, I don't know what is. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 10:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Quick ping to those involved to get this pushed through quicker: @S.A. Julio: @SuperJew: @Number 57: @Fenix down: @Nfitz: @BlameRuiner: @SportingFlyer: Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:39, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That would confirm professional status, User:Davidlofgren1996. It wouldn't confirm fully-professional status. The difference is, can the entire squad (or at least the top 20 or so players) fully support themselves playing football, or are they just semi-professional (which is still professional). A good question, is what is the 20th player paid, on the lowest-paid team in the league , as there's always going to be an exception or something. I've no doubt that the Motagua, Olimpia, and Marathóns are going to be fully professional - and all their players receive no end of media coverage. But what of Honduras Progreso? My gut feel is that they are ... but sadly we need more than my gut. Nfitz (talk) 16:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: I believe this source would cover that. Article 3 states (roughly) that "The professional player must consider playing soccer a way of life." (El jugador Profesional debe considerar la práctica del fútbol como medio de vida). This says to me that it would have to be their only source of income, as this document is specifically relating to contracts. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 17:41, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I understand this form of Spanish, and while your translation is correct, I read this more as "you can't play people as players who aren't players." I'd like some salary levels before I draw any conclusions, but that's not the worst rule. SportingFlyer T·C 18:45, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@SportingFlyer: Hmm I see your point, but I think besides the top European leagues, average player salaries will be very hard to come by. So far I've managed to find this source which states the Honduran players at the 2014 World Cup earned an average yearly wage of £339,498, with 11 out of the 23 players playing in Honduras. With the Honduran national salary being around £10,931 a year^[4], it's almost guaranteed that these players are earning a considerable amount more than that.

Another source is this, a news article from 2009 claiming that Deportes Savio owed a player by the name of Lenin Suárez 38,000 lempiras (£1222.73^[5]) as a monthly wage. This would amount to a yearly wage of just over £14,750, putting his earnings above the national average.

Finally, this source, again from 2009, is about a former Honduran league player Allan Lalín, who was asking for $8000 a month. As a forward who had scored 13 in 57 for his club, he doesn't strike me as the best player in the league, but I think this gives a good range for a decent player. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 19:52, 26 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I kind of agree with Nfitz here, if there are fully professional leagues in Central America, Honduras is morelikely than others to be one of them, but im not seeing confirmation of that here. What I am seeing is quotes indicating a desire for the league to be professional in spirit and attitude, not necessarily fully-professional in terms of salaries. I'd also be wary of drawing conclusions on a league based on one players reported salary demands. As mentioned earlier, we need to see some reporting on the level of salaries across the league. Fenix down (talk) 07:34, 27 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: @Fenix down: Okay, I have had a look and I have found a few articles that may shed some light on salaries for footballers in Honduras:

1) This article from El Heraldo Honduras is an interview with a former footballer, who has switched to a legal profession. The article states that (rough translation) "In Honduras, it is estimated that no less than a thousand soccer players in different categories play "professionally" (that is, they live on it), with those from Division A (LNP) being the most privileged to have full salaries and dedicate themselves exclusively to it." To me, this clears up any confusion over whether the league is fully professional in terms of spirit and attitude or in terms of salaries.

2) This article from Diari Mes seems to claim that the average salary of a second division side is 77,500 euros(?). I'm not sure if it means lempiras when it says Euros, but besides that point, it states (rough translation) "Thus, the cost of a staff of 25 men where all of them had exceeded 23 years and were limited to the minimum wage established by the LFP would exceed 900,000 euros. The agreement that regulates working conditions in professional football activity establishes a maximum working time of 7 hours a day for players, who have the right to use a full month of vacation with at least 21 days that "they enjoy continued form »." From what I can gather, this seems to imply that the second division also operates at a certain level of professionalism.

3) This source from Vavel claims that "The professional teams in Central America do not give figures of the players' salary, in some cases it is for security in countries such as Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala." This to me implies that it is a salary better than the national average, and the protection is from people looking to steal from them. Even better, it goes on to say "The average salary in the Honduran League is $ 1,800 to $ 18,000". (I am presuming this is monthly, as the next sentence describes the Guatemalan captain's salary as monthly). This would be a minimum of $21,600 and a maximum of $216,000 a year. Both are above the £10,931 average yearly wage cited above. The source also confirms that "All the leagues in Central America have a professional profile, even that of Nicaragua."

I hope this is enough evidence to support my claim. Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 21:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent work. I've been looking for references like that on and off for years! That's more than enough for Honduras as far as I'm concerned. Does anyone object? Nfitz (talk) 21:22, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Nfitz: It’s been just over a week now, safe to say there’s no objections? Davidlofgren1996 (talk) 11:24, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sure ... be bold and add it to the list, with the references. Nfitz (talk) 13:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ecuador

Any update on whether the league is fully-pro or not? Nehme₁₄₉₉ (talk) 19:34, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've added (and sourced) Ecuador. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 05:31, 12 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With UE Lleida season pages being purged, I was trying to work out when the top two Spanish leagues turned pro. I was trying to get a feel for that to help analyse the UE Lleida seasons, so I know which ones can be kept and which ones should go. Govvy (talk) 10:47, 17 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I know this isn't what you asked, but I doubted Liga Portugal 2's credentials, given some teams have 'stadiums' with capacities under 2,000. It turns out they are currently (just about) "fully professional" as reading between the lines they are subsidised by the gambling industry: User:Bring back Daz Sampson/Professionalism in Portuguese football Bring back Daz Sampson (talk) 17:48, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

On the page it says "The Challenge League is fully professional" but its not on the list...witch one is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexanderalgrim (talk • contribs) 22:04, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Alexanderalgrim: Generally speaking, this page, as all fully-pro leagues are sourced. If you can find a source to prove that the Swiss Challenge League is fully-pro (virtually all players in the league earn enough from football to not have to work a second job), then it can be added to the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 22:09, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) @Alexanderalgrim: I would work under the assumpion that it is not fully-professional unless you can find a source stating otherwise. I have restored content from an old version of the page that stated it was semi-professional, as the claim that it is fully professional didn't have a source. It'd be nice if Doug521 could explain this edit, as they failed to provide a source to back it up. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 22:12, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just wondering what the status of the USL Second Division was during the 2000s. @Keskkonnakaitse: Hack (talk) 16:35, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I am aware, the current status in the US is tier 1 and tier 2 (MLS and USL Championship) are fully pro, everything else is not. This includes USL 1/2 and NISA. The rationale is that while players are paid in USL 1 and NISA (maybe in USL 2), it's not what one would call a living wage, and the teams rely heavily on volunteer work. I think there's an argument to be made that USL Championship doesn't meet "fully professional" standards as well, but that's a can of worms I am not prepared to open given the fallout (in the form of loss of notability) is not something I have scoped out. Given this, I don't think the older USL 2nd Division would be more "fully professional" given how much the sport (including wages) has advanced in the last 20 years. Pirmas697 (talk) 18:11, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I was going through the archives and noticed that in archives 30, 32, 33, and 34 there seems to be some consensus that USL League One (tier 3 in the US/Canada pyramids) didn't meet fully professional status and shouldn't be on the list? These discussions were often framed against the similar tier 3 league NISA. Now to be clear my opinion is that NISA does not meet FP standards and won't argue that, but I guess I'd like some background onto why USL League One is included, or if it's inclusion on the main page is now erroneous as it appeared that by the end of 2020 in the archives, users were treating it as if it had been removed. It was noted that the citations given on the main page are all from the USL League One itself, and just as NISA's similar statements, don't really mean much. Maybe I'm just misreading it? Thanks everyone! Pirmas697 (talk) 18:58, 27 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, is anyone ever going to address this comment and issue? There isn't any doubt, if we are being objective, that both US D3 leagues do not meet FP. However, usl League One continues to show up on the list. Frankly, failure to act on this calls into question the standard itself and the editor's willingness to apply those standards objectively. If people are not going to use them to differentiate pro leagues from semi-pro/partially pro leagues, then why have the standards or this list at all. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:21, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you can provide some sources that would be a start. GiantSnowman 15:25, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So, I need to prove a negative, that usl L1 isn't fully pro? I can only start by saying that the evidence that they are is very weak. It's a list of articles that cite the league as professional which I am sure is based on nothing more than the press release from the league itself. It's certainly not based on any analysis of the player's pay. So, it shouldn't have ever been included in the first place. You can also refer to the comments above from Pirmas697. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:34, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did a quick google search and came up with this: https://kfoxtv.com/sports/locomotive/usl-players-association-issues-counterproposal-to-usl. USL players have asked for the *new* minimum to be $20,000 (and that is for the championship). Is that a livable wage? Because that suggests that there are players now making less than that and, if you think that a D3 franchise would pay less than a D2, then you'd have to guess that many usl L1 franchises pay way less than the $20,000. ChattaGooner (talk) 15:38, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just to give a couple of figures: the minimum yearly wage in the US is $14,500, while the median yearly wage is $40,000. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 16:13, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To further add on, there was an Athletic article released back in 2018 that calls into question multiple tenets of the USL Championship's (then United Soccer League) "fully professional" status. It is paywalled however I want to call out a few parts and I would be more than willing to screenshot the whole thing and put it on Imgur if I need to just to show I am not cherry picking.

1: There's an agent, Patrick McCabe of Stellar Group, saying players for Reno 1868 FC "that are earning zero-dollar contracts".

2: It also states "some USL players are working for nothing other than housing." That isn't livable.

3: There are players who will drive ride share (Uber, Lift) after games or on weekends to make extra money because of the low wages. That to me borders on the team not paying enough and them needing a second job, which is a strike against "fully professional."

To also expand on one of the links ChattaGooner, there's another article from last year by the Tampa Bay Times. I think there's something to say when the players are asking for a minimum of $20,000 (when the U.S. Government denotes a family of two earning less than $17.2 is under the poverty line), but also there's this line:

"Players say they can’t take more of a hit. Steinberger tells stories of players out of college who end up getting cut from MLS camps and latch onto USL rosters on deals that sometimes include only housing and game bonuses.

Rowdies center back Forrest Lasso, who is in his sixth professional season, once was of those players just trying to get by. While playing under his rookie contract with the USL’s Charleston Battery, he picked up a second job as a soccer coach to supplement his income. And in the offseason, Lasso — who studied business economics at Wofford and considered law school — picked up a part-time marketing job that netted more than playing soccer."

Overall, there's holes in this whole thing. There needs to be a whole evaluation of USL (both leagues) as being "fully professional" and if that means either removing them from this list or altering the criteria. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 16:21, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Most of these leagues have season-only contracts, too, and playing in them doesn't mean you necessarily pass WP:GNG. SportingFlyer T·C 16:53, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the above, I am happy to remove USL 1 from the 'fully pro' list. GiantSnowman 16:59, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hm, I'm not sure I would remove it yet. A lot of the above seems really harsh. Forest Lasso being on his rookie contract and supplementing his salary. First, we don't even know how much he was paid on that contract, whether it was small enough that he couldn't live on that salary, and what his full motivation was for coaching (starting preparation for post-playing career). Also, I wouldn't take quotes from Zach Steinberger seriously. It's his words and not confirmed and also this article is about the players working on a Collective Bargaining Agreement which probably means talking in a way to strengthen their position to the league. We also don't know if these are guys on short-term deals or full-time deals... both of which are common in USL. Going with the Athletic article, the quote by McCabe is also without context, not knowing which players were on zero-contracts. Just above we have quotes about these being for backup goalkeepers or backup squad players and again we don't know if full-time or part-time deals. The uber line is also not fair as we again don't know whether this is out of pure need or just to supplement their salaries. A lot of this is no different to say Premier League clubs playing young players (generally backup players) without professional contracts. None of this is proving that the starting players in these leagues or even the immediate backups are not being paid a livable wage or are in trouble of being in literal poverty.

Also, I think there is enough to satisfy WP:GNG. USL League One clubs definitely get enough coverage in their local markets and newspapers and even nationally League One gets a good amount of coverage. And finally, I think it should be brought up that the editors here are those who generally edit the National Independent Soccer Association and are probably not happy with NISA not being added to the list. Also User:ChattaGooner was just created and oddly enough, has only ever participated in this discussion. That should probably be looked into. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 18:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So when users bring up information that goes against WP:FPL, that's being "too harsh"? Additionally, I want to address the NISA comment (which feels like WP:OTHERSTUFF). I am of the opinion that neither NISA nor USL League One (or USL Championship) neatly fit into the "fully professional" standard. There's issues with contracts, issues with GNG, and plenty of other things. When these discussions about NISA have taken place there's been plenty of arguments saying it isn't much different than USL, but then those statements are taken as OTHERSTUFF (since saying "why does that get to stay on but not this" isn't a valid argument) and the whole process moves on. Now, when USL is being evaluated to those same standards in it's own discussion the editors get questioned as being bias. That's not fair. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 19:27, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is information that isn't that specific or details enough to go against What is a "fully professional" league?. What would be that, is showing a comprehensive article which shows that all or the majority of players need a second job because they can't live at all on their salary, that they are not being paid at all. Not that they might uber or that the back-end of the roster might be on smaller deals. Also, it isn't really OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to point that out about editors. NISA wasn't considered so USL League One was gone after and there was consideration for USL Championship to show that all leagues under Major League Soccer are not fully-professional. I don't see the arguments that NISA is no different that USL. There definitely is a difference in terms of payment for the majority of the squad in NISA and general coverage of the league and nothing has come up to refute that. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 19:56, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"There definitely is a difference in terms of payment for the majority of the squad in NISA" I'm going to need some citation here. I'm sure that's how a lot of folks feel about NISA vs. usl, but I've seen nothing that shows the difference. There's certainly not been any "comprehensive article" showing a difference. ChattaGooner (talk) 20:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If the main argument is that the sources "aren't specific," my counter would be that the sources proving USL League One as Fully Professional aren't very strong. The bar to clear isn't that high and USL1 shouldn't have added in the first place then. Pirmas (the editor who introduced this) even said this has been brought up before and it's been said to remove USL League One before. See Archive 30. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 20:19, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. this says that the average USL salaries range between $25,000 and $30,000. That doesn't specify between Championship or League One and doesn't talk between pre- or post-tax (which the monthly's pretty much insinuate but we don't know for sure). This is also an average. The Athletic says that there are a few guys earning above $100,000 while the grand, grand majority earn five-figures. The Athletic also makes a point in regards to USL USSF sanctioning, the "League must demonstrate adequate financial viability to ensure continued operation on a season‐by‐season basis" which includes "player and staff salaries and wages, stadium lease commitments and third party vendor obligations in addition to commitments by each team to the league". NISA has provisional sanctioning, not full. These salaries are fine to work on full-time without the absolute need to take on a second job beyond something to generate some more income. It isn't amazing or glamorous but it's enough to go by, especially for the players who are senior players beyond the back-end or youth/rookie players (who still can get paid okay). No one needs to take on an actual second job like being a banker, lawyer, baker etc. like leagues listed in not fully-professional. The league has also demonstrated it's professionalism by extending to "facilities, equipment, expenses and other support as necessary to allow full-time pursuit of the sport" with other support counting as housing etc.. Additionally, we have plenty of coverage on both leagues, just look it up for the club's and their coverage in local news. Look, I am not against NISA being added but in all of this, I have not seen any articles reference an average salary, anything to do with general standards around teams, or proof of greater coverage. At least for USL League One clubs, even the II sides, I can find articles outside the league covering recent matches and other stories surrounding the sides, whether about specific players, pre-season etc. For NISA, I can't find that beyond Chattanooga FC (lots of coverage) and Detroit City FC (also lots of coverage). Maryland and Stumptown have a bit as well. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 22:08, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Please stop bringing up NISA in this argument like it strengthens your case. I replied to a specific allegation. Anything else that has to do with that other league does nothing in this argument. As for your salaries argument, saying the median is around $25k would mean there are players getting lower than that (possibly including those getting paid nothing mentioned previously) and once again that would be close to the poverty line for a family of two. That article talking about El Paso says the players want a minimum of 20k, does that mean they are not getting that much for the most part? However, if that is enough to prove FPL for the Championship - fine. Everyone else can have a say in that. But I'm still not sold on League One. ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 22:28, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It's the average, not the median. I'm bringing up NISA because it isn't the same as USL League One. --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 01:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Just a note: NISA received full membership at the 2020 USSF AGM. They have to meet the same PLS that all other pro leagues in the US have to. That has nothing to do with the issue that I have with usl league one being mentioned when there is no evidence that players in that league (not uslc) receive a living wage. ChattaGooner (talk) 03:51, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For this grievous mistake, I shall resign from my post on the wiki-council --ArsenalFan700 (talk) 04:47, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, not sure what you mean by that, but please "look into me". I'd be happy to give you all of my other socials and I'll go ahead and admit that I have ZERO love for usl and am a supporter of a NISA club (I'm not, by the way asking for NISA to be included, only that the standards be applied in an objective fashion). That doesn't change any of the facts that there's ZERO proof that usl league one teams pay a living wage. None. There never has been any evidence. The cited "evidence" provided is weak at best. The league should have never been included here. Do they get local coverage? Sure, as do several NISA clubs. Does usl L1 get national coverage? Not a whole lot TBH. Now, people are asking others to prove a negative, that usl players aren't paid a living wage. I will just respond in kind. Provide ANY proof that usl league one pays its players a living wage and I'll concede. ChattaGooner (talk) 19:46, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm out. Clearly, any evidence I provide will not move this forward. Instead, I've been told offline that I'm just doing damage to the case. So, I'll leave it to others to decide. However, it's fairly clear to anyone who follows the lower leagues in the US that neither of the D3 leagues are "fully professional" using FP standards. Several people have defended that and provided at least some evidence in support of that case. Absent any other evidence to the contrary, league one should be removed from the list. ChattaGooner (talk) 01:40, 27 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Checking back in on this - do we think we have a consensus or enough to further the discussion? ColeTrain4EVER (talk) 00:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I came across Draft:2021 Kathmandu Rayzrs FC season and it brought me to the article on the Nepal Super League, which was formed a couple months ago. The league claims to be professional, (though I suspect the article may have been written by the league itself) but I don't know if it would be seen as fully professional per FPL's standards. Anybody have a better sense on where they would be? Bkissin (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bkissin: It's not conclusive by any means but given that the All Nepal Football Association president describes the Martyr's Memorial A-Division League, a non-FPL, as "the major league"^[1], I would very much doubt it. Also, it only takes place over one month which is geerally an indication that it is not an FPL. Microwave Anarchist (talk) 19:17, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If it passes WP:GNG, and it looks like it does, you can accept it. SportingFlyer T·C 16:54, 24 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This planned European League of Football was officially created in November 2020, and is scheduled to kick off on 19 June 2021 (pandemic permitting). Will this new league be recognised here as a fully professional football league? Will it be admissible with regard to notability? --Whiteguru (talk) 06:57, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Whiteguru: wrong sport. Seany91 (talk) 07:19, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, I see. Feckless American football!       'scuzi --Whiteguru (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've searched the archives and haven't found an up to date discussion pertaining exactly to what I'm asking. Will players contracted to next season's reserve teams in the 3. Liga (Borussia Dortmund II, SC Freiburg II), who haven't yet made an appearance in a fully professional league or between two fully professional clubs in a cup, become notable upon making their first appearance in the league? Beatpoet (talk) 15:19, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Beatpoet: Yes, they would pass WP:NFOOTY. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:22, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there are reserves teams playing in 3. Liga, how can it be considered "fully pro"? Seany91 (talk) 15:26, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Seany91: Because all players are contracted on a full-time basis, and don't have secondary jobs. For the Serie C for example, where Juventus' reserve team play, there are minimum salary figures, meaning that all players contracted are under professional contracts. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 15:29, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes - they are just senior teams that play in the national league system, but happen to be the 2nd XI of a bigger team... GiantSnowman 18:33, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand the "fully professional" reasoning to be a mandate for a page. There are NPSL teams that draw 1000s of people to games and have players that have wiki pages. I think this would be notable enough to warrant a page. On top of that, many NPSL teams DO have pages, will they be removed since they are no longer professional? Kevinw33 (talk) 16:58, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevinw33: Clubs don't need to be professional to have a Wikipedia page. There is no correlation between the notability of a club and that of a player. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:09, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme: On my draft submission one of the reason it was declined was because it did not qualify to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Football/Fully_professional_leagues Kevinw33 (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Georgia_Storm Kevinw33 (talk) 17:18, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Kevinw33: The reviewer was wrong, this list has nothing to do with club notability. Clubs must pass WP:GNG (like any other article on Wikipedia). Generally, per WP:FOOTYN, teams are presumed notable if they have played in the top level of their country's football structure (for the US, the MLS), or if they have ever played in the country's domestic cup (so, the U.S. Open Cup). Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:21, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme: Thank you! I was able to link the notability guidelines to the reviewer saying the team can qualify for the US Open Cup through their league so hopefully he will accept that. Now... I need sources! Kevinw33 (talk) 17:31, 8 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme: nevermind, he declined again because it says "has played in" the US Open rather than "can qualify for" the cup. Back to the drawing board. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kevinw33 (talk • contribs)

I got a player who played only in a league that is listed in the WP:NOTFPL. He had played two matches in the OFC Champions League. I also saw writing in this citation saying, 'None of the top-tier domestic competitions in Oceania is fully professional.' So can I conclude that he fails WP:NFOOTY. I think I can. Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 11:54, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If a player has not played in a competitive match between two clubs who both play in fully-professional leagues, they will not meet WP:NFOOTBALL. However, they still might be notable per WP:GNG if they have received significant coverage. GiantSnowman 11:57, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@GiantSnowman: This person fails WP:GNG. However, he played in OFC Champions League. What about that? Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 13:50, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If they fail GNG then passing NFOOTBALL does not matter (especially if they only made one or two appearances) - although this person appears to fail both so is definitely non-notable! GiantSnowman 14:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you GiantSnowman for your help. Ken Tony ^{Shall we discuss?} 14:58, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the Russian Professional Football League should be included in the list of fully professional football leagues. Since all players are paid a salary (and they do not need additional sources of income), and a work record is also required for employment. Mish-FCTM (talk) 19:27, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mish-FCTM: Can you provide a source that states that (virtually) all players in the PFL are paid a livable wage, close enough to the minimum salary and/or average salary of Russia? Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:15, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: https://www.sports.ru/football/1032153036.html PFL President: "The average monthly salary in the league is 55-60 thousand rubles", https://www.euro-football.ru/article/146172/1004361756_utkin_futbolistyi_pfl_poluchayut_po_30-50_tyisyach_vozmutitelno_im_sokraschat_zarplatyi Mish-FCTM (talk) 20:38, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Mish-FCTM: There's a sentence (Во втором дивизионе на всю жизнь не заработаешь) which Google Translate translates to "You can't make money in the second division for a lifetime"; what do they mean? Also, Russia's minimum wage is 90,000 rubles a year, which is about 2 to 3 times more than what an average PFL player earns. Another thing: those articles state the average wage of a player in the league (which is already much lower than the minimum wage figure); this implies that players in lower-tier clubs are earning even less. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 17:57, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: In Russia, the subsistence minimum is 11,510 rubles, and the average salary in 2020 is 35,361 rubles (according to official data from Rosstat). I live in Russia and I can assure you that a small number of people receive 90,000 rubles. Mish-FCTM (talk) 21:33, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Nehme1499: The source you brought says Russia's minimum wage is 7,500 Russian rubles per month, while Mish-FCTM's source says The average monthly salary in the league is 55-60 thousand rubles, which is 7-8 times the minimum wage you quoted. --SuperJew (talk) 18:51, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I misread. I thought that it was 55-60,000 per year, not month. In that case yes, I would include the league in the list. Nehme₁₄₉₉ 19:03, 30 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence that footballers who have played in the RPFL as their highest achievement can come close to satisfying the GNG. There are a host of AfDs prior to the removal of this league from WP:FPL a few years ago to back this up. I strongly oppose returning this league to the list. Jogurney (talk) 18:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Per this conversation, the league seems to meet this list's criteria virtually all adult players are paid a salary that they can live on and do not need additional sources of income. Whether this criteria is correct to presume notability or not is another discussion you can open, but seems that as it stands currently, the league should be added to the list. --SuperJew (talk) 19:52, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Have to agree with SuperJew here - but I'd support a change in the criteria to move more towards GNG-supported list. GiantSnowman 20:00, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Changing the criteria would just make the list redundant because it would no longer align with the guideline. What you need to change (if you so wish) is the guideline itself. Number 57 20:14, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Number 57: How so? The guideline says Players who have played, and managers who have managed, in a competitive game between two teams from fully professional leagues will generally be regarded as notable. Or are you referring to a change such as to make it "players who have played 10 competitve games etc."? --SuperJew (talk) 20:40, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm talking about GS's suggestion to change this list to be "GNG-supported" rather than a list of leagues that have fully-professional status. Number 57 20:42, 6 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]