The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

Mainland China is an important and common usage as an alternative to the PRC in WP:RS. I have given several sources to prove this. The previous version didn't fulfill WP:OR obviously.芄蘭 (talk) 05:47, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of RS:

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2020/09/is-south-korea-involved-in-taiwans-indigenous-submarine-project/

South Korea terminated its diplomatic relation with Taiwan in 1992 and asked the ROC embassy personnel to leave within 24 hours and the ROC properties to be transferred to PRC (mainland China).

https://www.rfi.fr/en/international/20200925-is-mainland-china-gearing-up-for-an-invasion-of-taiwan

According to Taiwan News, the exercises by the mainland’s People’s Liberation Army involved dozens of transgressions into Taiwanese territory.

https://jamestown.org/program/china-u-k-relations-grow-more-strained-over-huawei-and-hong-kong/

Hong Kong to be an “international gateway to mainland China and Chinese investment in the U.K.” (U.K. Government, October 15, 2015).

https://www.gisreportsonline.com/taiwan-and-chinas-relationship-with-the-west,politics,3305.html 芄蘭 (talk) 06:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's clearly WP:UNDUE in the lead sentence. The PRC has lots of other names (Red China, Communist China) that can't be included in the first sentence of this article. There's possibly something about Mainland China to be mentioned in the Etymology section, though it may be sufficient to discuss in Names of China. power~enwiki (π, ν) 06:31, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. Mainland China is important because China for PRC only is obviously a non-neutral name just in case of Chinese people's enforcement of Taiwan's independence or the relationship between the Holy See and the R.O.C.. Futher more, if you google "communist China", there are only 74,900 results. If you google "mainland China", there are 3,990,000 results. 13,500 for "communist China" "taiwan", 163,000 for "mainland China" "taiwan"芄蘭 (talk) 06:58, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If we go by your logic, we have to put "Chinese Taipei" and "Taiwan Province, China" on Taiwan's wikipedia page lead. Over a billion people do call Taiwan those names. But of course that is not appropriate. Wikipedia is a neutral website. China is the name of the country and its official longform name is PRC. We don't need to add supplementary non-neutral nomenclature. Yeungkahchun (talk) 18:45, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A link to Mainland China in a sentence would be of interest to many readers. Not sure about other terms listed above that don't have articles or sources here.--Moxy 🍁 19:37, 27 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there should be some distiguishment.芄蘭 (talk) 02:41, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. What Taiwan Province, China? Don’t you know that parts of Fujian, Guangdong, and Hainan province are also controlled by Taiwan(ROC)? Don’t you know that the Chinese mainland’s standard term for Taiwan is Taiwan Region?^[1] If you live in China, you will know that Taiwan Province isn't more widely used than that. Chinese Taipei is not better than "Taiwan Region", either. Neither Taiwan Region, China(basiclly used by PRC's MFA) or China Taiwan(basiclly used in Chinese and some international organizations, it's OK but not better than that.) 2. According to WP:NPOV, apparently you can not decide whether PRC or ROC is legal. Isn't it? Wikipedia is a neutral website, but the introduction only regards PRC as CHINA without any distiguishment.芄蘭 (talk) 02:16, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

<< What Taiwan Province, China? Don’t you know that parts of Fujian, Guangdong, and Hainan province are also controlled by Taiwan(ROC)? >> Where did I imply that those places aren't controlled by Taiwan (ROC). Don't put things in my mouth.

Exactly! So in the wikipedia pages of Fujian, Guangdong, and Hainan province, we do not refer to Fujian Province, Guangdong Province, and Hainan province as ROC in the lead of those respective wikipedia pages even though components of those province are controlled by ROC because we go by universally colloquial terms. Just in the same fashion as we do not refer to the PRC as just "Mainland China". Just in the same fashion as we do not refer to Taiwan(ROC) as "Taiwan Region / Taiwan Province / Chinese Taipei etc" We go by univrsally colloquial terms. To avoid controversy with respect to disputed territorial claims, we only refer to the universal colloquial terms.

<< Don’t you know that the Chinese mainland’s standard term for Taiwan is Taiwan Region? >> According to the official Constitution of the People's Republic of China the correct formal longform term is: 中华人民共和国台湾省.whcih translates to Taiwan Province of the People's Republic of China in English. Terms such as Taiwan Region are used as well. http://www.npc.gov.cn/npc/c505/201803/e87e5cd7c1ce46ef866f4ec8e2d709ea.shtml Even Wikipedia's very own page for the PRC's claim for the island of Taiwan refers to it as a province: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_Province,_People%27s_Republic_of_China https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%8F%B0%E6%B9%BE%E7%9C%81_(%E4%B8%AD%E5%8D%8E%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%91%E5%85%B1%E5%92%8C%E5%9B%BD Anyways, my point was that having "Taiwan Province/Region/Prefecture/whatever" would NOT be appropriate on the Taiwan Wikipedia page, you should agree with this.

<< Chinese Taipei is not better than "Taiwan Region", either. >> I wasn't saying that. Chinese Taipei is the Olympic and other international organizations (such as beauty pageants) terminology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Taipei Chinese Taipei is often used in international settings at the request of the PRC. It would not be appropriate to include that in Taiwan's lead as per WP:NPOV.

<< If you live in China, you will know that Taiwan Province isn't more widely used than that. >> I just used the correct constitutional term, I wasn't saying that other terms aren't used for the PRC's claim of Taiwan, I wasn't taking anything off the table respect to nomenclature. This doesn't take away from the fact that my point was that: regardless of what the PRC calls Taiwan, it should not be in the lead of Taiwan's article. Please recognize this.

<< According to WP:NPOV, apparently you can not decide whether PRC or ROC is legal. Isn't it? Wikipedia is a neutral website, but the introduction only regards PRC as CHINA without any distiguishment.>> You are correct here, according to WP:NPOV, apparently you can not decide whether PRC or ROC is legal. And the introduction does just that. The introduction regards PRC as the universally acclaimed colloquial term for the country, which is China. It doesn't need to distinguish between PRC's common-name term for the PRC (China) or ROC's common-name term for the cPRC (Mainland China). It doesn't need to distinguish because this would be showing a bias for the Taiwan (ROC) side. PRC is universally commonly called China, and ROC is universally commonly called Taiwan. Leave it as that. Let's not add in controversial things. WIkipedia is NEUTRAL. A distinguishment is inappropriate because what we don't want to be doing here is differentiating anything besides the universal common names of China and Taiwan. Having a distinction between ROC's " mainland China " or PRC's " Taiwan Region / Province / Chinese Taipei " would be controversial to those respective readers with different views. When people universally think of the word China they think of PRC. When people universally think of the word Taiwan they think of the ROC. The fact that we are even having this debate proves the controversy which I'm talking about.

<< Wikipedia is a neutral website, but the introduction only regards PRC as CHINA without any distiguishment. >> Because this Wikipedia article refers to the sovereign state of the People's Republic of China and not the continental landmass of mainland China. This sovereign state of China includes mainland China, Hong Kong SAR, Macau SAR, and various claimed islands in the South China Sea. Hong Kong, Macau, aren't considered part of mainland China. China is oftencolliquially called Mainland China, but that is not the appropriate term for the entire country of the People's Republic of China. The PRC jurisdictionally & nominally isn't just mainland China. The country we're talking about here includes much more than geographic mainland China, such as its special administrative regions and various islands (both legitimate and illegitimate claims). Although China is colloquially referred to as Mainland China by individuals, The special administrative regions and the islands are not geographically and geopolitically part of mainland China.

Referring to China as Mainland China / Dalu / Neidi / etc on China's wikipedia page would go against WP:NPOV as it takes the ROC side (PRC claims the island of Taiwan). Referring to Taiwan as Taiwan Region / Taiwan Province / Chinese Taipei / etc on Taiwan's wikipedia page would go against WP:NPOV as it takes the PRC side (ROC claims the mainland landmass of China).

In conclusion, TLDR; to avoid controversy with respect to disputed territorial claims, we only refer to the universal colloquial terms and their full official conventional longform names = China & People's Republic of China (PRC). Taiwan & Republic of China (ROC). Adding anything else besides the common names & longform names could generate controversy.

Yeungkahchun (talk) 04:12, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

1. Taiwan province is Taiwan province. But Taiwan contains four provinces(all claimed by PRC). You should agree with this. Why "Taiwan Province/Region/Prefecture/whatever" would not be appropriate?? Just like you said, over a billion people do call Taiwan those names. Or are u saying that it isn't a common usage in English? But mainland China has no such a problem.
2. I don't want to talk the term Taiwan Province anymore. It has nothing to do with the subject discussed today.
3. I'm glad we have a consensus on the third point, so adding these words or Mainland China is very important. Or, the readers would believe the pro-PRC points only.
4. Like you said, we should not name the Taiwan article as Taiwan, because that Wikipedia article refers to the sovereign state of the Republic of China and not the islands. But the truth is they are just their informal names, we can use them according to Wikipedia:Article_titles. More importantly, according to your point, we should call the Republic of China China in accordance with the Constitution of the ROC. I noticed that this entry was previously named PRC, China is not its formal name just like Mainland China.
5. The special administrative regions Hk and Macao sometimes belong to mainland China(when means 大陸), sometimes not(when means 內地), you should read the Exit and Entry Administration Law carefully.
6. As we all know, the PRC and the ROC are contradictory in terms of sovereignty.If you have to say that go against WP:NPOV, well, referring to PRC as China on PRC's wikipedia page would go against WP:NPOV too, because Taiwan(ROC) doesn't admit Mainland China as a country. So, at least to balance the two, we should add Mainland China.芄蘭 (talk) 05:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

<<referring to PRC as China on PRC's wikipedia page would go against WP:NPOV too, because Taiwan(ROC) doesn't admit Mainland China as a country. So, at least to balance the two, we should add Mainland China.>> No. Wikipedia must use the official self-proclaimed longform names for all sovereign states ex: Russian Federation, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Republic of Korea, United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland etc Countries have to be listed their official constitutionally self-proclaimed names, regardless of any external sovereignty disputes. You do realize that if we can't call China the PRC then we can't call Taiwan the ROC either right? You're going against your own point here. North Korea and South Korea don't constitutionally recognize each other, so do we remove South Korea's label of Republic of Korea and North Korea's label of Democratic Republic of Korea? Absolutely not. You seem to have a huge bias against PRC here. I'm not pro-China or against Taiwan in anyway so please, understand Wikipedia only uses the universally acclaimed common names and the official longform names. Example: South Korea, officially the Republic of Korea China, officially the People's Republic of China Taiwan, officially the Republic of China Russia, officially the Russian Federation Spain, officially the Kingdom of Spain etc

<<Like you said, we should not name the Taiwan article as Taiwan, because that Wikipedia article refers to the sovereign state of the Republic of China and not the islands. But the truth is they are just their informal names, we can use them according to Wikipedia:Article_titles. More importantly, according to your point, we should call the Republic of China China in accordance with the Constitution of the ROC. I noticed that this entry was previously named PRC, China is not its formal name just like Mainland China>>

actually my stance is that the Taiwan article should be named Taiwan, and the China article should be named China. My position is aligns with wikipedia's policy: to use the most common universal name (the informal name) and the constitutionally self-proclaimed longform name. Yeungkahchun (talk) 17:24, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

<<Wikipedia must use the official self-proclaimed longform names for all sovereign states.>>First of all, you violated WP:NPOV. You seem to be saying that PRC is a sovereign state and ROC is not. Second, is this sentence your original or it comes from Wiki policy? WP:Article titles never mentioned it. Third, don’t you know that China is the abbreviation that complies with the Constitution of the ROC, and using Taiwan is just a helpless act?

<<You do realize that if we can't call China the PRC then we can't call Taiwan the ROC either right?>>No, I never said that the PRC cannot be called China.

<<You seem to have a huge bias against PRC here. >>No, you seem to have a huge bias against me here. I just added common abbreviations to help readers distinguish and maintain neutrality. Where does Wikipedia only uses the universally acclaimed common names and the official longform names come from?

<<actually my stance is that the Taiwan article should be named Taiwan, and the China article should be named China.>> That's very good, but this cannot prevent other editors from joining mainland China.芄蘭 (talk) 04:02, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

<<Wikipedia must use the official self-proclaimed longform names for all sovereign states.>>First of all, you violated WP:NPOV. You seem to be saying that PRC is a sovereign state and ROC is not. Second, is this sentence your original or it comes from Wiki policy? WP:Article titles never mentioned it. Third, don’t you know that China is the abbreviation that complies with the Constitution of the ROC, and using Taiwan is just a helpless act? >>

Yes, Wikipedia must use the official self-proclaimed longform names for all sovereign states that have some sort of recognition and even states that have no recognition from countries will be provided with the longform names. For example, Republic of South Ossetia (South Ossetia) is claimed by Georgia and virtually no country recognizes it as an independent sovereign state, but it its full name is included in the lead of the article. Please familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy, and also, don't take this too seriously. At the end of the day, we are all human beings. Let's both hope for the prosperity of both communist China and democratic Taiwan, and world peace for the whole planet.

<<Wikipedia only uses the universally acclaimed common names and the official longform names come from>> Take a look at every country 's wikipedia article. I don't hold any biases towards you. If you want really want to add what you want to add, you can try to gain consesus from the whole community, rather than acting unilaterally and engaging in edit wars with others. "China" is not an "abbreviation", an abbreviation is a group of letters that is shortform for a specific phrase or sentence. China is a proper noun because it is the name of a place. What phrase is China an abbreviation for? An abbreviation would be like "e.g." = for example. Anyways I will withdraw from this as I don't see this as productive. Have a nice day.

<<You seem to be saying that PRC is a sovereign state and ROC is not. >> No? My official personal stance is ROC is a sovereign state. I am saying it right and right now: ROC is a sovereign state. I repeat, I believe ROC is a sovereign state in my view. This is my personal stance and I don't allow it to effect my neutral editing. I won't not vandalize the PRC article even if I recognize ROC.

You are correct when you say: the special administrative regions Hk and Macao sometimes belong to mainland China(when means 大陸), sometimes not(when means 內地). Note: sometimes. Since the SARs aren't always categorized to mainland China, we cannot refer to the entire country of China as mainland China since it would exclude the SARs which are constitutionally under PRC jurisdiction. This is similar to the notion, we cannot exclude ROC's jurisdiction in places such as Fujian Yeungkahchun (talk) 18:41, 30 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I am glad that we have a broad consensus this time. But you made a mistake:

China is not only a place name, but also an abbreviation (please refer to this source). This abbreviation has a special meaning for Chinese Mainlanders and Taiwanese. It means the competition between communism and liberalism (please refer to this source), and it also means the competition between separatism and national unity (I am a Chinese, this is a common sense).

Cross-strait relations are special, not ordinary. Since the restriction you mentioned earlier does not come from the Wiki policy, then we should add mainland China to deal with this special issue (note that I absolutely did not say to replace China, I just want to clearly distinguish the two issues and maintain neutrality, so that it will be more in line with Wiki policy：Foreign names and anglicization, too). Like User:Moxy said, adding the term Mainland China is in line with readers' interest, too.芄蘭 (talk) 12:11, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Include in lead section, not lead sentence. All names common in sources (including older ones) should appear in the lead section and boldfaced, per MOS:BOLDSYN. That includes "Mainland China", "Communist China", and "Red China". However, none of these are prevalent enough that they need to be shoehorned into the lead sentence.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]