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== Assists/Clean sheets ==
== notes in infobox ==


It appears that assists/clean sheets are not included in the template table. Does it mean that we need to help remove the assists and clean sheets columns in all of the football player articles?--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 23:12, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be noted to avoid adding notes or citations to the info box? Note 3 give an alignment issue to start with. Info box is suppose to be clean, clear and precise information, it really is not good to convolute it with citations. I recommend we remove those bits on the example. [[User:Govvy|Govvy]] ([[User talk:Govvy|talk]]) 07:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
:Have you read the notes? Notes 1 to 3 are there to further explain our conventions for player pages. Only note 4 represents an example of a note that could be found in an article. [[User:Robby.is.on|Robby.is.on]] ([[User talk:Robby.is.on|talk]]) 09:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)
:Assists and Clean Sheets should be removed per [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#Assists WP:FOOTY] [[User:JMHamo|JMHamo]] ([[User talk:JMHamo|talk]]) 00:23, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::If that's the case, then why my edits to Cesc Fabregas were undone? I removed the assists cells based on what you said.--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 16:13, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::Robby, maybe you should delete this thread and ignore my stupidity, I posted that at 7:23am, so probably wasn't quite awake yet. [[User:Govvy|Govvy]] ([[User talk:Govvy|talk]]) 16:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
:::Heh. No problem! These things happen. :-) [[User:Robby.is.on|Robby.is.on]] ([[User talk:Robby.is.on|talk]]) 19:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)
:::I included the old version and the new version below.


== EFL prefix and when to em dash ==
'''Old Version'''
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
|-
!rowspan="2"|Club
!rowspan="2"|Season
!colspan="4"|League
!colspan="3"|Cup<ref>Includes [[FA Cup]], [[Football League Cup|League Cup]] and [[FA Community Shield]].</ref>
!colspan="3"|[[UEFA|Europe]]
!colspan="3"|Total
|-
!Division
!Apps
!Goals
!Assists
!Apps
!Goals
!Assists
!Apps
!Goals
!Assists
!Apps
!Goals
!Assists
|-
|rowspan="9" valign="center"|[[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]
|[[2003–04 Arsenal F.C. season|2003–04]]
|rowspan="8"|[[Premier League]]
|0||0||0||3||1||0||0||0||0||3||1||0
|-
|[[2004–05 Arsenal F.C. season|2004–05]]
|33||2||4||8||0||1||5||1||0||46||3||5
|-
|[[2005–06 Arsenal F.C. season|2005–06]]
|35||3||5||2||1||0||13||1||2||50||5||7
|-
|[[2006–07 Arsenal F.C. season|2006–07]]
|38||2||13||6||0||2||10||2||1||54||4||16
|-
|[[2007–08 Arsenal F.C. season|2007–08]]
|32||7||20||3||0||1||10||6||2||45||13||23
|-
|[[2008–09 Arsenal F.C. season|2008–09]]
|22||3||11||1||0||0||10||0||5||33||3||16
|-
|[[2009–10 Arsenal F.C. season|2009–10]]
|27||15||13||1||0||1||8||4||3||36||19||19
|-
|[[2010–11 Arsenal F.C. season|2010–11]]
|25||3||11||6||3||1||5||3||2||36||9||14
|-
!colspan="2"|Total
!212!!35!!77!!30!!5!!6!!61!!17!!15!!303!!57!!100
|-
|rowspan="4" valign="center"|[[FC Barcelona|Barcelona]]
|[[2011–12 FC Barcelona season|2011–12]]
|rowspan="3"|[[La Liga]]
|28||9||10||9||3||6||11||3||4||48||15||20
|-
|[[2012–13 FC Barcelona season|2012–13]]
|32||11||11||8||2||1||8||1||0||48||14||12
|-
|[[2013–14 FC Barcelona season|2013–14]]
|3||0||5||2||0||0||0||0||0||5||0||5
|-
!colspan="2"|Total
!63!!20!!26!!19!!5!!7!!19!!4!!4!!101!!29!!37
|-
! colspan="3"|Career total
! 275 !! 55 !! 103 !! 49 !! 10 !! 13 !! 80 !! 21 !! 19 !! 404 !! 86 !! 137
|}


From the 2016–17 season the English Football League has been known as ''EFL'' Championship, ''EFL'' League One etc. rather than just Championship, League One etc. I've noticed a few career statistics including the EFL prefix in the Division column, what is the consensus on whether to include it or not? I like to include it, but I want to go with the consensus and keep it consistent where possible.
===Fabregas new stats table===
{| class="wikitable" style="text-align: center;"
|-
!rowspan="2"|Club
!rowspan="2"|Season
!colspan="3"|League
!colspan="2"|Cup<ref group=lower-alpha>Includes [[FA Cup]], [[Football League Cup|League Cup]] and [[Copa del Rey]] matches.</ref>
!colspan="2"|[[UEFA|Europe]]
!colspan="2"|Other
!colspan="2"|Total
|-
!Division
!Apps
!Goals
!Apps
!Goals
!Apps
!Goals
!Apps
!Goals
!Apps
!Goals
|-
|rowspan="9" valign="center"|[[Arsenal F.C.|Arsenal]]
|[[2003–04 Arsenal F.C. season|2003–04]]
|[[Premier League]]
|0||0||3||1||0||0||colspan="2"|—||3||1
|-
|[[2004–05 Arsenal F.C. season|2004–05]]
|Premier League
|33||2||7||0||5<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL>Appearances in [[UEFA Champions League]]</ref>||1||1<ref group=lower-alpha name=comm>Appearances in [[FA Community Shield]]</ref>||0||46||3
|-
|[[2005–06 Arsenal F.C. season|2005–06]]
|Premier League
|35||3||1||0||13<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||1||1<ref group=lower-alpha name=comm/>||1||50||5
|-
|[[2006–07 Arsenal F.C. season|2006–07]]
|Premier League
|38||2||6||0||10<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||2||colspan="2"|—||54||4
|-
|[[2007–08 Arsenal F.C. season|2007–08]]
|Premier League
|32||7||3||0||10<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||6||colspan="2"|—||45||13
|-
|[[2008–09 Arsenal F.C. season|2008–09]]
|Premier League
|22||3||1||0||10<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||0||colspan="2"|—||33||3
|-
|[[2009–10 Arsenal F.C. season|2009–10]]
|Premier League
|27||15||1||0||8<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||4||colspan="2"|—||36||19
|-
|[[2010–11 Arsenal F.C. season|2010–11]]
|Premier League
|25||3||6||3||5<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||3||colspan="2"|—||36||9
|-
!colspan="2"|Total
!212!!35!!28!!4!!61!!17!!2!!1!!303!!57
|-
|rowspan="4" valign="center"|[[FC Barcelona|Barcelona]]
|[[2011–12 FC Barcelona season|2011–12]]
|[[La Liga]]
|28||9||8||3||9<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||1||3<ref group=lower-alpha name=UEFASuperCup>Appearances in [[UEFA Super Cup]]</ref><ref group=lower-alpha name=CWC>Appearances [[FIFA Club World Cup]]</ref><ref group=lower-alpha name=ESPSUP>Appearances [[Supercopa de España]]</ref>||2||48||15
|-
|[[2012–13 FC Barcelona season|2012–13]]
|La Liga
|32||11||7||2||8<ref group=lower-alpha name=UCL/>||1||1<ref group=lower-alpha name=ESPSUP/>||0||48||14
|-
|[[2013–14 FC Barcelona season|2013–14]]
|La Liga
|3||0||0||0||0||0||2<ref group=lower-alpha name=ESPSUP/>||0||5||0
|-
!colspan="2"|Total
!63!!20!!15!!5!!17!!2!!6!!2!!101!!29
|-
! colspan="3"|Career total
! 275 !! 55 !! 43 !! 9 !! 78 !! 19 !! 8 !! 3 !! 404 !! 86
|}
{{Reflist|group=lower-alpha}}


Secondly, a bit of advice on when/when not to merge and "em dash" some of the apps/goals columns. I'll give you an example; if a player joins a team on loan, say from a Premier League/Football League club to a non-league club, and they join ''after'' the team they're joining has been knocked out of the FA Cup, should the FA/National cup column be merged and em dashed? Likewise with the "Other" column - if they play for the team while they are knocked out (or even ineligible) of say, the FA Trophy, should that also be merged and em dashed?
--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 16:59, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


Edit: oh and of course I realise if a player plays for a non-league team then the EFL/League cup should be dashed out.
== Note for European competitions ==


Many thanks! [[User:Pascopedral|Pascopedral]] ([[User talk:Pascopedral|talk]]) 19:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)
Is it necessary to add a note that states what European competition a player played in like the [[Carl Jenkinson]] article does? I removed the note because no other articles do that but it was put back by the administrator. So do we need to do the same for every other applicable article? Thanks.--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 23:26, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
:Yes is the short answer. If a player plays in many European competitions over his career, it's important to be able to see quickly what they were involved in that season. [[User:JMHamo|JMHamo]] ([[User talk:JMHamo|talk]]) 00:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::But it seems like few of the 'good articles' have that kind of information in them. Is it that they should not be considered as 'good articles' or it is just unnecessary to include that information?--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 00:48, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
:::See [[#Citation for stats table]] above re good articles and gradual improvement. It's "unnecessary" to include a stats table at all. If we're including one, it makes sense to include information helpful to the reader. The informative notes below the tables are a fairly recent introduction, and are being gradually adopted. cheers, [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 09:02, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


== Stats table template needs to be updated ==
== Custom template for goalkeepers ==


I don't think "Goals" column is particularly helpful in player's data (appearances, team, year, goals) if the player is a goalkeeper. "Goals conceded", "Penalties saved" etc. makes more sense. [[User:BurakUeda|BurakUeda]] ([[User talk:BurakUeda|talk]]) 01:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)
1. Is a 'Total' row needed if the player has only played for the club for one season (e.g. one-year loan spell)? What if it is the current season?<br />
2. Do we need to add multiple 'Total' rows if a player has 2 or more spells at one club? For example, if the player has 2 spells at a club, should the second 'Total' be the sum of the first 'Total' and the second one? What if they have 3 spells at the same club?<br />
3. Shouldn't the league cells/rows be merged if it's the same league?<br />
4. Shouldn't the template include a Continental(e.g. Europe) column?<br />
5. How are we supposed to indicate what cups the player has played for?<br />
6. The situation where cup or other is not applicable is not demonstrated in the template.<br />
7. What should the seasons link to? For example, should we link 2000–01 to 2000–01 Premier League or 2000–01 Template United F.C. season? What if none of the two exist?<br />
8. Should season cells be merged if the player played at 2 or more clubs in one season? If so, what if they played in different leagues?<br />
--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 04:04, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


:[[WP:NOTSTATS]] applies. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 12:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
:1. Not in my opinion.
:2. If they're physically adjacent in the table, e.g. a loan immediately above a permanent spell, I'd have just one total row for the lot. If they're physically separate, I'd have separate, independent totals rows, i.e. the second/third totals would '''not''' include figures from previous spells.
:3. No. It's easier for a sighted reader to read '''along a line'''; if there are multiple rowspanned columns, particularly if the player has had a long career with several years at each of several clubs and changes of division don't coincide with changes of club, the eyeline goes up and down like a [[yo-yo]]. Also, I was told once by a reviewer with expertise in accessibility issues that many [[screen reader]]s can't cope with rowspans after the first column, so mislead their users; don't know if that's still the case, but assuming it is, we shouldn't be recommending a structure that some users can't access.
:4. Whatever's appropriate. Most players don't play in continental competition.
:5. That layout, like the rest of the page, only gives a rough idea. Most editors would separate "Cup" into [[FA Cup]] and [[Football League Cup|League Cup]] for players playing solely in England, or National Cup and {generic) League Cup for players playing in several countries. Whatever's appropriate. As with the European or Other columns, we can always add footnotes if necessary.
:6. See 5. Omit whatever's inappropriate.
:7. Assuming the club season article would be independently notable, i.e. club playing in a top or fully professional league, then definitely club season. It's considerably more likely to be relevant to the player, and by extension to the reader looking at the table and wanting further information, than the league season. If a notable club season doesn't exist, still link to it. [[WP:REDLINKS|redlinks are good]]; they encourage people to write the missing article. Link to league season '''only if''' the club season isn't notable.
:8. No. See 3 and 7.
:Another thing some editors do is to format a cell pair as <code><nowiki>colspan="2"|—</nowiki></code> (instead of zeroes) when the club didn't play in the relevant competition while the player was registered with them: e.g., as at [[Chris Burke (footballer)#Career statistics]].<p>Thank you very much for setting out such a constructive set of questions. Not sure whether I should format my replies like this, or intersperse them with the questions. If people think interspersed would be better, please feel free to reformat, and copy my sig up to each reply, or ask me to do it, whatever. cheers, [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 10:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::Very well answered [[User:Struway2|Struway2]]. I like your approach. Can I just give a visual example of a career stats table, which I think is perfect and should be the template for ALL player articles that include a stats table.. [[Matt Green (footballer)|Matt Green]] has a long career, played in many different leagues and cups and the way his table is formatted allows me to see what I need quickly. This is the standard we should be reaching to achieve in my opinion. [[User:JMHamo|JMHamo]] ([[User talk:JMHamo|talk]]) 10:26, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
:::I just saw [[Chris Burke (footballer)|Chris Burke]]... a perfect example for European competition stats. [[User:JMHamo|JMHamo]] ([[User talk:JMHamo|talk]]) 10:30, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
::Alright. Thanks so much for answering! I am sorry but I do have a couple more questions regarding the stats table. Please refer to tables I posted in the Assists/Clean sheets section.<br />
::9. Where should we include competitions like the FA Community Shield (1 round), the Spanish Super Cup (2 rounds), FIFA Club World Cup, UEFA Super Cup, and DFB-Ligapokal (abandoned)? 'Cup' or 'Other'?<br />
::10. It seems that people do not agree on whether or not assists/clean sheets should be removed. Assists are not included in [[Chris Burke (footballer)#Career statistics]], but when I removed the assists columns in Cesc Fabregas, it was considered as nonconstructive and my edits were undone. So, what should we do?<br />
::Thanks!--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 17:17, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


== Order of items in the medals table? ==
:::My 2 cents:
:::3. & 8. I prefer merged cells. It's then easier to see (especially if the player has a long spell in one league) that it was each season the same league.
:::4. Only necessary if the player (or at least the club) took part in a continental competition.
:::9. Other.
:::10. Remove both.
:::For the others I agree with the answers above. --[[User:Jaellee|Jaellee]] ([[User talk:Jaellee|talk]]) 18:07, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


Is there a standard for the order of items in the medals table? It looks like the FIFA World Cup is listed first, with items decreasing from there in order of significance, and with the Olympics thrown in at the end. Is there a more defined list of how they should be arranged? —'''[[User:C.Fred|C.Fred]]''' ([[User_talk:C.Fred|talk]]) 21:23, 11 December 2023 (UTC)
::::Thank you! I strongly agree with you on merged cells. Let's take [[Ryan Giggs]] as an example, it looks much cleaner and much easier for readers to see that he's only been playing in the Premier League since his third season at Man Utd because we used merged cells.
::::Could you please help improve the template I provided for Cesc Fabregas and migrate it to the actual article? Thanks.--[[User:Miunouta|Miunouta]] ([[User talk:Miunouta|talk]]) 20:50, 11 September 2013 (UTC)


:As far as I am aware, no - nothing at [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players]] - but the general rule is, again as far as I am aware, that yes it is in significance of the trophy. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 12:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
== Division in career stats ==


== On Loan Vs Signed in Club Stats ==
In the career stats table in the Division cell we write [[Premier League]], [[Liga BBVA]] and all.But how it is possible?Division should be like English first division,French second division etc.[[User:Royroydeb|RRD13]] ([[User talk:Royroydeb|talk]]) 06:16, 22 October 2013 (UTC)


When a player is on loan, and then is signed by that club, should the club stats subtotal reflect both the loan season and the signed seasons, or should there be separate subtotals? [[User:Froglife94|Froglife94]] ([[User talk:Froglife94|talk]]) 02:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
== Division column: to repeat name or not ==
:I'm now wondering the same thing, as nearly every article I've seen follows the "loan is not included" practice, and yet recently, my edit to bring [[:Martin Ødegaard]] to that standard was reverted [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Martin_%C3%98degaard&diff=1210259326&oldid=1210257750] by an experienced editor saying "includes loan spell". Has the consensus changed without me noticing—and without pretty much any other article following suit—or is Ødegaard's article somehow different? [[User:Anwegmann|Anwegmann]] ([[User talk:Anwegmann|talk]]) 04:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

::They should be separate. Matty got it wrong at Ødegaard. [[User:Robby.is.on|Robby.is.on]] ([[User talk:Robby.is.on|talk]]) 23:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
From the discussion above, and the recent change reverted by myself as without consensus, it's clear that many people prefer not to repeat the division name on every row. However, what we ''can't'' do here is override Wikipedia's [[WP:Manual of Style|Manual of Style]] by recommending a style that fails [[WP:ACCESS]] because [[screen reader]]s don't read rows with rowspanned cells properly, if that's still the case. It might well not be. Perhaps someone who supports this change could get confirmation from the accessibility project as to whether it's OK or not, then ''if it is'', the change could be proposed and discussed here. Thanks, [[User:Struway2|Struway2]] ([[User talk:Struway2|talk]]) 16:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC)
:::Fully agree with Robby - they are separate spells and should be treated as such. The only exception is when a player has two separate loan spells with the same club in the same season, from the same parent club. [[User:GiantSnowman|Giant]][[User talk:GiantSnowman|Snowman]] 08:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Latest revision as of 09:19, 17 March 2024

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notes in infobox[edit]

Shouldn't it be noted to avoid adding notes or citations to the info box? Note 3 give an alignment issue to start with. Info box is suppose to be clean, clear and precise information, it really is not good to convolute it with citations. I recommend we remove those bits on the example. Govvy (talk) 07:23, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Have you read the notes? Notes 1 to 3 are there to further explain our conventions for player pages. Only note 4 represents an example of a note that could be found in an article. Robby.is.on (talk) 09:05, 26 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Robby, maybe you should delete this thread and ignore my stupidity, I posted that at 7:23am, so probably wasn't quite awake yet. Govvy (talk) 16:59, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Heh. No problem! These things happen. :-) Robby.is.on (talk) 19:32, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

EFL prefix and when to em dash[edit]

From the 2016–17 season the English Football League has been known as EFL Championship, EFL League One etc. rather than just Championship, League One etc. I've noticed a few career statistics including the EFL prefix in the Division column, what is the consensus on whether to include it or not? I like to include it, but I want to go with the consensus and keep it consistent where possible.

Secondly, a bit of advice on when/when not to merge and "em dash" some of the apps/goals columns. I'll give you an example; if a player joins a team on loan, say from a Premier League/Football League club to a non-league club, and they join after the team they're joining has been knocked out of the FA Cup, should the FA/National cup column be merged and em dashed? Likewise with the "Other" column - if they play for the team while they are knocked out (or even ineligible) of say, the FA Trophy, should that also be merged and em dashed?

Edit: oh and of course I realise if a player plays for a non-league team then the EFL/League cup should be dashed out.

Many thanks! Pascopedral (talk) 19:22, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Custom template for goalkeepers[edit]

I don't think "Goals" column is particularly helpful in player's data (appearances, team, year, goals) if the player is a goalkeeper. "Goals conceded", "Penalties saved" etc. makes more sense. BurakUeda (talk) 01:54, 22 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTSTATS applies. GiantSnowman 12:07, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Order of items in the medals table?[edit]

Is there a standard for the order of items in the medals table? It looks like the FIFA World Cup is listed first, with items decreasing from there in order of significance, and with the Olympics thrown in at the end. Is there a more defined list of how they should be arranged? —C.Fred (talk) 21:23, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I am aware, no - nothing at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Players - but the general rule is, again as far as I am aware, that yes it is in significance of the trophy. GiantSnowman 12:06, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

On Loan Vs Signed in Club Stats[edit]

When a player is on loan, and then is signed by that club, should the club stats subtotal reflect both the loan season and the signed seasons, or should there be separate subtotals? Froglife94 (talk) 02:46, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm now wondering the same thing, as nearly every article I've seen follows the "loan is not included" practice, and yet recently, my edit to bring Martin Ødegaard to that standard was reverted [1] by an experienced editor saying "includes loan spell". Has the consensus changed without me noticing—and without pretty much any other article following suit—or is Ødegaard's article somehow different? Anwegmann (talk) 04:47, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They should be separate. Matty got it wrong at Ødegaard. Robby.is.on (talk) 23:50, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fully agree with Robby - they are separate spells and should be treated as such. The only exception is when a player has two separate loan spells with the same club in the same season, from the same parent club. GiantSnowman 08:57, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football/Players&diff=1214168093&oldid=587827925

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