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weight based on primary sources?

I was surprised to see that WP:WEIGHT doesn't mention anything about primary vs. secondary sources (or, alternatively, about sources being independent of the subject). Isn't it fair to say that, in general, weight is established by secondary sources (and/or sources independent of the subject)? There are exceptions, perhaps, but it seems like a common theme in many disputes over weight. For example, a non-notable award given to a person, covered only in press releases from either the award organization or the recipient, would not have sufficient weight to include in an article about that person. That seems fairly straightforward. We would need secondary sources independent of the subject to cover it first, otherwise there's nothing separating it from an award I invent tomorrow and send out press releases for. Is there a reason I'm not thinking of not to include something along these lines? — Rhododendrites talk \\ 04:55, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the sources, although primary, are independent of the recipient, then this is different from a self-conferred award. and if the awarding entity is notable, or close to notable, even if the particular award is not, that gives it some weight, in my view. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 22:27, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion about moving the Genderqueer article

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Genderqueer#Requested move 1 August 2017. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:44, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Labeling people correctly

I'm proposing a new policy that would also affect the BLP policy. I suggest that there be a policy that forbids articles from describing a living person's political views differently from how the person himself describes them in a direct statement. In other words, we shouldn't be able to call Donald Trump a liberal even though he clearly isn't one. We shouldn't be able to call Richard Spencer a white supremacist even though he rejects that label. We shouldn't be able to call MLK a black supremacist and so on. My policy wouldn't necessarily require a person to embrace the label for it to be acceptable, but if the person says "No, that is not what I am" to a certain label, we should be forbidden to call that person that. I strongly encourage any editors, before opposing the rule, to suggest how to make it better. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 21:38, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update: I don't think that we should refrain from acknowledging that a person had been called that label, I just think that if they've rejected the label, then we shouldn't call them that in Wikipedia's voice (as a direct statement). THE DIAZ talk • contribs 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Update 2: The term "terrorist" would not be in this rule's purview. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 21:01, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

  • Support as the maker of this proposal. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 21:38, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Some people, particularly on the far right, describe their ideology in more moderate terms than informed experts. Instead of calling themselves white supremacist, holocaust deniers, fascists, etc., they are liberals, conservatives, skeptics and free speech advocates. Vladimir Zhirinovsky for example who is often described as a fascist and is certainly populist and nationalist, calls his party the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. The center-right party in Portugal calls itself the Social Democratic Party. The terms "conservative" is considered derogatory in France and many other countries so no one calls themselves that. Current policy however allows us to mention when people reject the mainstream description of their views. TFD (talk) 14:36, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per fundamentals of NPOV, multiple areas of NOT, and principles from probably every related ArbCom. --Ronz (talk) 21:05, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose For all the reasons already stated. While I think it's important to note self-identification, and to take it under advisement, it should not trump the reliable sources. Because political views are subjective, even as to one's own beliefs, this simply cannot work. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support somewhat - as written is not a finished form and goes too far, but WP content shows clear need for some additional or more explicit guidelines. Left-wing or right-wing, mud-slinging is neither useful nor reputable. Markbassett (talk) 20:14, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support somewhat The problem is that when it comes to politics, wp:"reliable" sources are often biased and thus unreliable. But then self-assetions by the individual can also be unreliable. Probably a good middle ground is that saying that when there is a conflict between the two, you need particularly strong, quality, objective sourcing to describe someone in conflict with their own description. North8000 (talk) 21:44, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose: a number of political figures claim speciously to adhere to movements to which they do not subscribe, or that they have nothing to do with movements in which they are major actors. This has always been true: compare Alcibiades to Milo Yiannopoulos or Cataline to Mark Levin. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:43, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support (with comments): Take two cases:
  1. "Terrorist": The term is most commonly used in a legal or official capacity by representatives of the state. This is actually less subjective than "conservative" or "liberal" and I'd have no problem echoing official designation if readers would interpret it similarly. No doubt many subjects would dispute this designation.
  2. Alt-right: I detail the problems with our application of this term in my comment below and I believe we should be cautious with its usage especially when contradicted by the subject.
The difference in these two cases suggests application of this policy would be highly dependent upon the label applied, thus a list of labels to which is applies would be necessary. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - A person should be described how the bulk of reliable sources describe them. Same goes with anything in Wikipedia, which is the general gist of the NPOV policy. Stickee (talk) 02:21, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per NPOV; that a white supremacist doesn't like being called a white supremacist is not Wikipedia's problem. Their beef is with the reliable sources, not us. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 19:04, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This would make problems for you, the Leftists who are reading this, and that's why I support this, because screw you. But of course, because this would make problems for the Left, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of getting anywhere, so actually making a legitimate argument for it here is pointless. If it was to the Left's advantage then no argument would be needed. --BenMcLean (talk) 19:06, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Actually I think there is already protection with WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV saying you can't label without attribution, WP:BLP saying you can't force in contentious material without consensus, WP:WTW saying you should be extra careful with pejoratives, WP:NPOV saying you have to balance etc. etc. but it takes long effort to explain. For example I and other editors spent multiple futile hours working on reversing 109 BLP articles labelled denier all at once). Anything that makes it more emphatic "you can't add pejorative labels just because some opponent says so and RS doesn't trump this" would be welcome. Is there a notice about this on a page related to WP:BLP? Peter Gulutzan (talk) 21:47, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - Didn't oppose when I first saw this because it seemed like a non-starter. Doing so reluctantly now that, to my surprise, it has some support. (That's not to say I think the RfC is in bad faith or preposterous -- it just seems like a particular aspect of NPOV that we talk about fairly frequently). In nearly all things, if the weight of reliable sources describes a person one way and the person describes him/herself differently, we go by reliable sources (WP:PRIMARY is relevant). That said, it should be noted if reliable sources also document that the person disagrees with a particular characterization and we should reflect all noteworthy perspectives (again, based on WP:WEIGHT). — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - I am also surprised this proposal has garnered any support. What a person calls himself or herself deserves a mention but one's own self-image isn't relevant to the content of the article. I can come up with plenty of examples of people who call themselves "feminists" but aren't, people who are widely viewed by reliable sources as "alt-right" but never refer to themselves that way, people who call themselves "progressive" but give only lip service to that label. President Trump probably truly believes he is an honest man, yet his falsehoods and flip-flops are well-documented. I could go on and on. Bottom line, we give due weight to what reliable sources say. I do agree that a Wikipedia article shouldn't express such descriptors in Wikipedia's narrative voice, but should always attribute them to the sources. ~Anachronist (talk) 17:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support somewhat - include their POV with inline text attribution. The same applies to MSM's opposing view - must be compliant with WP:LABEL and WP:REDFLAG. The opinions of deflectors must not be written as statements of fact in WP voice. Provide information in a dispassionate non-judgmental tone so readers can make their own determination. Atsme📞📧 11:30, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • strong oppose this falls at the intersection of NPOV, V, and BLP. Wikipedia content should be based on independent, reliable sources - this is what every policy and guideline says. Those policies and guidelines also say that we can use primary/SPS sources, but only with great care. WP:BLPSPS and WP:PRIMARY (and what a person says about themselves, is going to be one or the other) are each very clear that we use statements a person makes about him or herself with care. It is OK to use them (to say, for example, that Spencer denies he is a white supremacist) but excluding what reliable, independent sources say violates just about everything we do here. The WEIGHT is given to what independent, reliable sources say. With BLP matters t is important that those are high quality sources, of course. Jytdog (talk) 18:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Jytdog. Knowledge in WP is based in published sources; this encyclopedia is a compendium of information found in reliable publications. I would agree that a primary source that describes what the person says about themselves and per weight, with in line attribution, could be a good inclusion and would cover the contingency where reliable sources and a person's view of themselves differ. (Littleolive oil (talk) 19:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC))[reply]
  • Oppose. We follow the sources. Many political figures describe or label themselves more moderately than their actual views would indicate, as TFD and MarkBernstein point out above. Our project needs take no part in the "brand management" of controversial political actors.
Further, I request a procedural close as WP:FORUMSHOPping. We already had an RfC on whether we should describe Richard B. Spencer as a white supremacist, just this past March, which closed by Winged Blades of Godric as "Near unanimous consensus to maintain status quo i.e. refer to Spencer solely as a "white supremacist" in the lead.In general, the terms used by WP:RS takes a preference and precedence over personal interviews irrespective of WP:BLP concerns…." The discussion was rehashed the next month, and when it went stale the proposer of this RfC revived it again, and then came close to a topic ban for referring to our use of the term white supremacist as "libel", in reaction to which they opened an ANI filing, which resulted in no action, and included in the close the text "The Diaz is advised to drop the stick on Richard Spencer…". I advise them again here. No reliable sources call Donald Trump a "liberal" or Martin Luther King Jr a "black supremacist", or James II of England a "neo-Confucianist" for that matter. On the other hand, [t]here exists a consensus that sufficient reliable sources describe Spencer as a white supremacist that it is NPOV and due weight to describe him as a white supremacist, as NorthBySouthBaranof already said over a month ago. We do not need to have this discussion a fourth time, and frankly I'm not sure why it's such a big deal in the first place, since a solid ninety-nine per cent of our readers are likely to interpret the terms white supremacist and white nationalist identically as horrible racist.
Lastly, User:BenMcLean is kindly invited to strike their clearly bad-faith notvote. Snuge purveyor (talk) 20:02, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong oppose You basically want to invent a case in which primary sources take presidency over secondary sources. This is (another endless) request for Wikipedia's core policies to be altered to accommodate the opinions of people who want racists and racial idealists to look warmer and fluffier. Edaham (talk) 04:33, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose this often would result in false balance, although there are situations where I think attribution is good. I see at least one comment suggesting that this only matters for the left; I think that it matters to the world: people should correctly be informed rather than only being fed self-descriptions which are often misleading. We can read the public relations material and propaganda on the relevant party's web site already, Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. This also implies that material contradicting self-descriptions does not merit mention unless it is notable and reported by reliable sources. And only if the person/party are notable enough to have an article. If this passed, would we also eventually include religious self-descriptions in Wikipedia's voice and stop using established theological terms to describe and categorize faiths (i.e. millenarist, etc)? The Four Deuces's comment is also very relevant. —PaleoNeonate – 06:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose we are here to regurgitate what reliable sources say......if there is a contradiction or opposing view also in RS this should be stated. We are here to inform readers.....not omit valid info.--Moxy (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Setting aside the POV issues, this is just a senseless hoop to make editors jump through: try tracking down an interview where Alberto Fujimori explicitly describes himself as a "neoliberal", or a clip of Narendra Modi describing himself as "right-wing". Maybe you'll find one, but what's the point of doing this rather than consulting an expert source? Nblund talk 02:47, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Oppose This proposal flies in the face of the very ethos of Wikipedia itself. That this would completely gut the NPOV policy has been established. On a purely practical level, not only would it prevent us from labeling political theorists with their own inventions it would prevent, not stifle but flat out prevent, our ability to accurately write biographies. Take for example Josef Stalin. As far as I know, Stalin never described himself as a Stalinist. This proposal would strangely prevent us from using the label, in reference to him. Hitler probably never described himself as a fascist. Also, if we allow this hermeneutical virus to vitiate NPOV it will spread to other places. We will have chiropractors and homeopaths described as medical practitioners; creationists described as scientists; Scientilogists described as mental health experts. After all, why should this proposal stop at political ideology and not extend to all ideologies.--Adam in MO Talk 09:36, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose While laughing, just no. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:40, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose as on WP:LABEL we already have "widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject", with my stress on "widely". Perhaps the problem is that this policy is not being applied appropriately right now, and may need clarification. --Nanite (talk) 03:44, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose -- suggesting that WP only "describ[es] a living person's political views differently from how the person himself describes them in a direct statement" is a bizarre requirement. WP editors are expected to follow reliable sources, not the claims by the subject's of the articles. K.e.coffman (talk) 06:23, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Absolutely not. We reflect the array of reliable sources. Where reliable sources make characterizations in their own voice, so too should we make a statement in the encyclopedia's own voice. Neutralitytalk 18:56, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose and No way - this is a very badly thought out proposal. It would be in direct conflict with our policy on reliable sources, WP:RS, which is a non-negotiable part of WP:NPOV and one of the FIVE PILLARS. Basically even if somehow magically this proposal would get support here (which it ain't gonna), you still couldn't implement it. To get this to work, you would have to change the five pillars. Good luck with that.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:50, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also wanted to note that RfCs should be worded neutrally. The title of the section is not neutral.Volunteer Marek (talk) 09:52, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Super Mega Humungous Thundersneeze Oppose we should use the label WP:RS use and remember that a RS must be secondary which means that neither the person of the article nor anyone who is even remotely involved in the ideological conflict is not allowed to apply labels on Wikipedia. Which means that an activist academic cannot be used as a WPRS because of a vested interest in the conflict. AadaamS (talk) 10:30, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose -- privileging one viewpoint (the individual's) over others from reliable sources makes no sense for an encyclopedia. Shelfpea (talk) 11:54, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose favoring self applied labels over those of Reliable Sources ... Support requiring attribution of labels applied by Reliable Sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Note to whoever determines the consensus in the future:

Any editor who is voting no because of NPOV fails to realize that:

1. Verifiability isn't the only policy

2. This policy would be part of NPOV.

That's all. Keep discussing! THE DIAZ talk • contribs 21:13, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While I support the idea in principle, I don't think this is appropriate it the right way. I think it is important to stress a neutral description of a person before going into anything dealing with labels (favorable or not, self-claimed or not) particularly in the lede sentences, but once a neutral description is established, then attributed claims can be included as long they don't otherwise violate BLP. The neutrality part of this is making sure we don't weigh subjective labels of any type over objective, neutral terms. --MASEM (t) 22:00, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • This proposal is contrary to several established provisions of our NPOV policy: Specifically WP:POVNAMING and WP:WEIGHT.
Yes, labels can often be seen as being pejorative... and yes, we should respect the self-identification of a BLP article subject... However, that respect can be out weighed by the identifications and labels used by reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject. If the majority of independent sources routinely apply a potentially pejorative label when describing the subject, we need to mention that... even if the subject himself/herself rejects the label. It would actually be non-neutral of us to favor the subject's self-identification and ignore over the labels used by independent sources. Sure, if the subject himself/herself has explicitly rejected a label applied by others, we can (and probably should) note that rejection in the article... but we still have to mention how others label the subject.
To give an extreme example: I doubt anyone would self-identify as a "terrorist" ("Don't call me a 'terrorist' I am a freedom fighter"), but if a significant majority of independent sources routinely apply the label "terrorist" to that person, then we can not (and should not) ignore those sources. We should apply that term here in WP, even though the subject may not like the term. Blueboar (talk) 12:05, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, for something like "terrorist", we should consider if a legal authority has made that statement, which is not a label when applied by a legal definition since it allows the legal authorities to treat the situation far differently (similar to calling someone a murdered once they have been convicted of that , but not before). I've seen RSes use the word "terrorist" for actions that are far far different than what one normally would consider as a terrorist (actions of words, rather than actions of warfare), so when used that way it is still a label and should be treated as such. --MASEM (t) 14:52, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
"Terrorist" falls under WP:LABEL anyway. I disagree with WP:LABEL stating "in which case use in-text attribution" when the term is widely supported for the individual or group. I disagree because this is a misleading use of in-text attribution since it implies that only that one source has referred to the subject as a terrorist. If the person or group is well-established as a terrorist or terrorist group, we should not be using in-text attribution. I've challenged this wording in the WP:LABEL guideline before and I've been meaning to do it again. I was reverted by an editor when I changed the text, but I never got around to pursuing the matter beyond an existing section on the talk page at that time. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:08, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Flyer22 Agreed - I reiterated this twice below to different replies before I saw your post.
First , keeping in mind that by definition, a label is a subjective term, there are a few labels that also have objective definitions - "terrorist" is one of those. If legal authorities have cited someone as a terrorist, that's the objective version; if the NYtimes does the same but without the legal authorities corroborating, that's the subjective version. But most labels do not have any objective element, such as "racist" - there's no objective measurement of this, it is purely subjective.
To that end, whenever one of these labels are used, particularly towards a BLP, it should always be given some type of attribution. If it is a wildly-held stance by the media, then it should be stated that way "John Q Smith is considered a racist by many sources." If it the opinion of a few, more explicit attribution is needed. It's the problem when editors, though rightly identifying a widely-held label on a BLP by the media, want to state that as fact in WP's voice, which must be avoided. And importantly, this should not be pushed into the article before establishing neutral, more objective aspects first. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I view labeling someone a racist as different than labeling someone a terrorist. I've also seen people debate what is racist a lot more than I've seen people debate whether a certain action is terrorism. I would not support stating "John Q Smith is considered a terrorist by many sources." I would state the matter in Wikipedia's voice unless there is a valid suspicion that the general consensus is flawed. And as far calling someone a racist, I would be wary of that unless it's an analysis matter that is widely supported by reliable sources (especially if a historical matter) or is referring to one or more comments the person made. Mel Gibson comes to mind; see this section, which, in addition to what it states, points to The Passion of the Christ#Allegations of antisemitism. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It all depends on the independent sources. If the label is applied by a few sources... then it is an opinion, and we should use in text attribution (if we mention it at all) - and not use the term in WPs voice. If, however, the label is routinely applied by a substantial majority of independent sources, then there is no need for attribution... there is a consensus demonstrated by the totality of sources which indicates that the label is considered accurate and factual (not just opinion). Blueboar (talk) 23:01, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is where there's problems because of how we have sliced what part of the media we consider RSes. It is very easy in the current days to find notable persons being called some type of label typically associated with the right, with the bulk of left-leaning sources - the ones that make the bulk of our RSes - using that label. We need to be aware of this media bias, and take a conservative (as in middle-ground, not political) route to use attribution for that. If the person was long since dead, and that's how sources today reported on that person, that would be different. It does no harm to WP to take this approach, while if we do repeat blindly what RSes say without considering the big picture, we get into problems when it comes to labels. --MASEM (t) 23:51, 6 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
User:Masem - it's an old saying that one nations 'freedom fighter' is anothers 'terrorist', and really we can simply focus of state a fact, not your opinion. WP:LABEL says to state the label and attribute it. The attribution serves WP:V as well as keeping WP to an WP:NPOV, and what that label source is part of the data. If it has a legal basis like terrorist list is different from just a speech name-calling. Markbassett (talk) 20:22, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Completely fair point and doing so (identifying which nations consider so-and-so a terrorist or the like, or saying John Q Smith was convicted of murder rather than being a murder) is better in the long run. --MASEM (t) 02:26, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
NPOV states clearly in WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV (my bold) Biased statements of opinion can be presented only with attribution. For instance, "John Doe is the best baseball player" expresses an opinion and cannot be asserted in Wikipedia as if it were a fact. It can be included as a factual statement about the opinion: "John Doe's baseball skills have been praised by baseball insiders such as Al Kaline and Joe Torre." Opinions must still be verifiable and appropriately cited. The latter refers back to inline text attribution per WP:LABEL, and WP:REDFLAG which is in WP:V policy. When BLPs are concerned, we are obligated to exercise even greater caution.
The arguments and misunderstandings I've seen with regards to WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV have been consistent with no attribution needed, or that it's ok to state it in WP voice. Attempts to define terms like "widely viewed", etc. as weasel words are also invalidated by WP:NPOV which clearly states that expressed opinion cannot be asserted in Wikipedia as it were a fact. The policy also tells us to Avoid the temptation to rephrase biased or opinion statements with weasel words, for example, "Many people think John Doe is the best baseball player." But "Who?" and "How many?" are natural objections. An exception is a situation where a phrase such as "Most people think" can be supported by a reliable source, such as in the reporting of a survey of opinions within the group. I've seen arguments for weasel word and claims of whitewashing misused repeatedly as a result of trying to use it as a standalone which changes the context for how it was used in that policy. Also stating the opinions of others (particularly biased ones) as fact in WP voice is, according to NPOV, noncompliant. Neutrality, I would appreciate your input as you have expressed a strong opinion in support of stating opinion as fact, including biased opinions in WP voice, which I find confusing. Atsme📞📧 20:20, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That is a complete, 100%, distortion of my actual view. Neutralitytalk 20:33, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oh my...it was not my intention to distort your actual view. My apologies if I did so inadvertently. You stated in your reason for opposing: Where reliable sources make characterizations in their own voice, so too should we make a statement in the encyclopedia's own voice. That follows in line with what you stated here, so I actually believed my question was aptly phrased regarding my confusion. It is my understanding that the word "characterization" (appraisal, valuation, assessment, regard etc.) is synonymous with "opinion", so when we use Wiki voice to state a person's characterization of something or someone, we are obligated to state it as such per the examples we've been provided in the policy. If we state it in WP voice as you suggest, then it becomes a statement of fact because WP is not a person; therefore can only express the opinions of people and not make statements of fact per WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV. If I'm wrong, please explain and help clear up the confusion, because I'm not the only editor who believes this to be true. Please also keep in mind that the policies and MOS guideline I quoted above support my position unambiguously. I have spent hours trying to find the policy that supports yours, and would be very appreciative if you would simply cite them for me as I did mine...whenever you have time, of course. Atsme📞📧 21:43, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've made my views clear, and the vast majority of editors comprehend them. It is not a good use of my time to be pulled into a lengthy discussion with you marked with walls of text. At the Jared Taylor article, you spent more the better part of a a week trying to get the article to downplay Taylor's white nationalist/white supremacist stance—which is literally the only thing he is notable for—despite multiple university-press published works, respected broadsheet newspapers, etc. directly and prominently describing him as such. That Taylor espouses white nationalist/white supremacist views is not contested among the universe of authorities on the subject. (In other words, it is not a "seriously contested assertion"). Accordingly, the vast majority of editors roundly rejected your view, and I'm not going to re-litigate it here. Neutralitytalk 02:27, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Consensus doesn't overrule policy, and opinions stated in multiple RS are still opinions. Enjoy your weekend. Atsme📞📧 02:58, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Something more is needed, because despite guidance being supportive of this generally, the failures of name-calling and vague pejoratives being given prominence are happening. I think there is guidance to be neutral in naming WP:POVNAME; that WP:LABEL as well as WP:BLP emphasizes to be conservative in wording and do so with attribution; that WP:LEAD has structural guidance that directs one to start by identifying the subject; that WP:OFFTOPIC should keep the focus of a BLP to the life of the person rather than some abstract label, and so on.
Yet WP articles do start with a pejorative (subjective opinion) being stated as WP position and as fact, and as a major part of the article. Restraint needs some more help here.
The examples given included one that diambig shows as "Richard B. Spencer (born 1978), American white supremacist" and the article starts with "Richard Bertrand Spencer (born May 11, 1978) is an American white supremacist.[9 cites]" followed by 3 paras of picked quotes and then the article itself is 11 screens of material that is not Biographical -- his daytime job is hard to see and family is barely mentioned in 3 lines at the end. This is just not giving the appearance of factual or complete biography nor a coverage of RS on the topic, this is reading like a WP:ATTACK rant of hunted criticisms by a POV group with a strong emotional investment.
I'd suggest that WP should strengthen the guidances restraining namecalling and emotionalism. Specifically I'll suggest start by more explicitly saying (1) The BLP subject must be identified in the initial line and mention otherwise made only of their birth date, nationality, or occupation. (2) Any judgemental label should be no sooner than the second paragraph, with the source of the labeling in attribution rather than WP voice, and include immediately after that any denial of the label by the subject.

Cheers Markbassett (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

p.s. The area of politics and controversial issues seem particularly fraught to derailing BLP into a Proxy war of Guilt by Association . For that, it may be necessary to offer the stronger guidelines of WP:BLPCOI, WP:PAID, and WP:ARBAPDS. Also may refer to Wikipedia:WikiProject Politics, or look at essays Wikipedia:Politics and Wikipedia:Political dispute Markbassett (talk) 00:10, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Izno: @Blueboar: @Masem: @Flyer22 Reborn: @Markbassett: @The Four Deuces: @Ronz: @Dumuzid: @North8000: Please note my explanatory update at the top that rules out any suppression of content. Hope it clears some things up. THE DIAZ talk • contribs 12:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the update. I understand the impetus, but I still think it's unworkable simply because I think the Reliable Sources should always hold the trump card (no pun intended). Thus, to take a silly example, say every reliable source on Earth says "Dumuzid is a far-right fascist." I say "no, actually, I am a liberal based on my idiosyncratic 19th century definition." In that instance I believe it's proper to call me a fascist in Wikipedia's voice and note my self-description. I guess in essence I believe in the power of consensus (some might say the "wisdom of crowds") and I am hesitant to embrace something as counter-majoritarian as self-description in a subjective field like this. That being said, I am wrong plenty. Cheers! Dumuzid (talk) 12:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd rather simply be much more middle-ground, and that anytime a subjective label is used, regardless of the weight of sources, we simply make sure it is clear it is an attributed label, since by the very nature of "subjective" there's no factual way to prove that the label actually fits. It's what we do for "positive" labels, and we shouldn't change that for "negative" labels either. If nearly all RSes call something by some label, we should say "John Q Smith is considered (label) by most analysts." Where self-identification comes into play is how to frame the self-identification relative to the broader opinion towards the label as well as other factors, eg continuing: "John Q Smith is considered (label) by most analysts, but he had denied this and instead states he is (something else)." It's easier to apply evaluation of RSes and self-identification issues if you start from the stance that we should never assign a label factually in WPs w/o proper in-text attribution. It avoids tons of tone and neutrality problems, while still being able to stay true to the balance of RSes. --MASEM (t) 13:03, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem... out of curiosity (and to see where you might draw the line).... would you rewrite the lead of our article on David Duke with attribution... Or is that a case where applying the labels in WPs voice is OK? Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No, the clarification doesn't clarify. Basically, this is an argument for a specific type of WP:SOAP, giving WP:UNDUE weight to a source regardless of it's quality, violating WP:BLP, and reducing the weight given to other sources regardless of their quality. --Ronz (talk) 15:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the ping. I haven't felt the need to vote, though; this is probably because I don't think your proposal will pass. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 16:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
To Blueboar: "David Ernest Duke (born July 1, 1950) is an American politician and former Louisiana State Representative (1989-1992). He was the former Imperial Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan and is widely considered as a white nationalist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and Holocaust denier." There would be more to change but that keeps the lede otherwise intact and addresses the label issue I'm talking about without burying the wide perception about it. --MASEM (t) 16:49, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
When commenting above, a person such as David Duke came to my mind. I wouldn't include "widely considered as." I mean, what sources are stating the contrary? Is he denying that he is a white nationalist, for example? I don't see that he is. So I'd go with what the lead currently states. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's not a lack of issue of contrary sources, or availability of self-statement. It is that they are subjective terms, period - that's the whole issue of labels. Even if every possible RS we find uses a certain label on a person or the like, we should not presume it is fact, and at least adding clarifying language that "widely considered as" avoids that but doesn't diminish the weight of sources using that label. Moreso, labels should not be in a lede sentence, because that affects the article's tone off the bat. We do have to get to the fact he was connected to the Klan, you can't hide that, and that's why the second proposed sentence, grouped with labels frequently applied to the Klan, works. The first sentence is 100% objective, and sets a neutral tone to start the article, while the current sentence immediately gives a negative impression, which we should not be doing at all.
I realize there are some labels, like "Holocaust Denier", which may seem obvious, but you have to remember that because it still is subjective, the "bounds" of whom gets included shift. There have been debates, for example, of what the objective difference is between a "climate change skeptic" and a "climate change denier", and you'll find commentators that like to shift people that some consider as "skeptics" to "deniers" by twisting a few words. That's why we need to be fully aware of how these subjective labels work, and outright avoid stating them as unattributed fact. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree in this particular case (David Duke). Duke quite clearly supports white separatism, for example. Plenty of things are labels, including "runner," "feminist," "radio host," "actor," and similar. Some people have subjective feelings about what an actor is as well; for the more extreme side of that debate, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Pornography/Archive 7#Preferred disambiguator: "actor/actress" or "pornographic actor/actress"?. But, with the exception of "feminist," which can be a contentious word, we don't refrain from labeling subjects by these terms ("runner," "radio host," "actor," etc.). I don't see that it should be any different for a number of the more controversial terms, especially if the labels are accepted as fact (not just widely accepted as fact) and the subjects do not dispute the labels, and especially if they even embrace the labels. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:40, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
And, yes, I'm aware that things like "radio host" and "actor" are occupations. Duke has made a career out of white separatism. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree that things like "radio host" and "actor" are labels. Yes, people can self-apply them, and I know there was a case somewhere on a BLP who was self-stating they were a philosopher, despite having no recognized qualifications for it. The thing with terms like "runner" or "actor" or the like is that we can actually make objective determination if that is what they do. Did they star in a film or TV show? They're an "actor". Did they regularly compete in an organized race event? They're a "runner". We have clear objective line for these. Further, these are neutral terms. ("Feminist" is a label nowadays because there are definitely different schools of thought of what feminism is, and I've definitely seen cases of people mis-categorized here). Nearly every subjective label instead is trying to guess on a person's motivations, and then how other people interpret those motivations, and that is the recipe for subjectiveness. Even if someone self-identifies with the same stance that most other RSes agree with, it's still better to give that attribution: "John Q Smith is a self-identified Holocaust denier...". A core point of NPOV is that we never should be saying for any topic "X is (subjective language)" without clear attribution of whom that subjective language is coming from. --MASEM (t) 20:17, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just don't see that some of these controversial terms are subjective, at least in most cases. If we are going by the WP:NPOV policy, which applies neutrality differently than we do in common discourse, then stating some of these labels in Wikipedia's voice is fine (and I don't just mean cases where the law agrees). I can't see any WP:NPOV violation with stating that David Duke is a white nationalist, antisemitic conspiracy theorist, and Holocaust denier. And if a subject embraces being a white nationalist, I don't think we should use qualifiers such as "considered to be." I'm fine with "self-identified white nationalist," but I don't think it's needed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:27, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's the emotional loading, and extra implicit meaning behind the labels that makes them subjective. Some labels are fine, because they don't have the emotional loading behind them. Things like White nationalist don't have the same cultural emotional loading as actor. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the "emotional loading" argument. I'm not automatically okay with a controversial label being used. I've noted my feelings a little higher up too. But a case like David Duke's? Certainly not subjective as far as "white nationalist" goes. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:47, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Can you define what exactly are the conditions we use for a "white nationalist" label? Likely not - either you can, and it will then be relatively easy to find cases of people called "white nationalist" in RSes that don't fit that objective definition, or we agree that its definition is entirely subjective. Yes, there will be people, like Duke, that will be very much at the center of that perceived definition of "white nationalist". However, it is more recognizing that when you get to people that are at the periphery of that perceived subjective definition that are more questionable, like those cases that James Lambden is describing below. And there is no easy way to distinguish between the "easy" cases of Duke, for example, and the edge cases to make a clear call, particularly considering the modern-day media leanings, and thus it is better to simply denote clearly where subjective labels are use and give attribution. We still maintain the NPOV's UNDUE (we're not hiding that label), but just using a more impartial, clinical tone. --MASEM (t) 21:13, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Conditions? A case-by-case matter, like many other things on Wikipedia. In these cases, we should analyze what the factors are, what the sources state, and how common it is or isn't for the subject to be described that way. One factor would certainly be any sources that disagree. Another would be self-identification. Duke's case is easy. He is a white nationalist. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Whenever we deal with case-by-case situations, that leads to further subjective decision, now in our hands, and there's very little doubt that certain articles will gain editors that have implicit biases in either direction. Duke may seem like a case where there's no issues, but the problem exists far more often with very little obviousness elsewhere that makes the problem worse throughout WP. Again, James Lambden has identified one area where editor bias readily prevails to push highlight subjective levels chosen by editors, banking on a number of opining RS sources to be able to make these assertions. If we flat-out said that labels should be treated as subjective language and per NPOV, all subjective language should be clearly marked as some type of attributed opinion, then editors cannot play these types of games. It make seem to add a few extra words to someone like Duke where there is no seemingly apparent issues, but it also creates a simple rule that avoids the problem where the issues do arise. --MASEM (t) 13:52, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think it might be worth pointing out the example of Genocide on the main policy page. From the page "For example, an article should not state that "genocide is an evil action", but it may state that "genocide has been described by John X as the epitome of human evil."". I don't know anyone who would not consider genocide as evil, but the policy calls out attribution of something that seems uncontroversial to me. Further, it calls it out for a non-blp subject, whereas we're dealing with BLP's which should be held to a more conservative standard. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:03, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, you know I am always open to your perspectives, but it's clear that we don't fully agree on this matter. I do not think some of these terms are as subjective as you believe them to be. There are different definitions of "terrorist," but it's pretty straightforward for the most part. And if the subject (whether it's a person or a group) is by and large referred to as a terrorist in reliable sources, I think we should do that as well. Qualifiers like "considered to be" is unnecessary WP:Weasel wording, especially when no source exists challenging the label. It's adding unnecessary doubt to the term. We don't label living people "racists," unless reporting on the commentary/analysis of reliable sources (and in those cases, we give the subject's side of things if they have argued against the descriptor). But we do label people "white nationalist," especially when they embrace the label, as is the case for Duke or Craig Cobb. All in all, I understand what you are arguing, but I don't fully agree.
Kyohyi, calling things evil in Wikipedia's voice is foregoing an impartial tone; that's why we don't do things like that. "Evil" not only has its roots in religious beliefs (and I and many others are not religious), it's relative for some things (despite the fact that many people agree on a lot of things being evil). I don't see how it goes against being impartial to label Duke or Cobb a white nationalist. What is evil is more of an opinion; Duke and Cobb being white nationalists is a fact. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
What I'm trying to stress is that focusing on David Duke as an example is perhaps not a great place to emphasize the issue because some of these labels he has self-identified with, and I would certainly agree that the other labels being applied to him do not seem to generate controversy; in other words, it seems to be no problem to describe him in these labels in WP's voice. The issue is when you get people at the periphery or grey area of where these labels are applied where it becomes very important to attribute those labels. Especially nowadays in areas of left-vs-right political or ideological areas; it's clear that some commentators on the left want to use terms like "alt-right" or "white nationalist" to funnel more people into these terms that, on the current moral compass, are considered "bad", just as commentators on the right like to push people to be "bleeding heart liberals", "social justice warriors", and "anti-fascists". This is a natural human behavior of trying to taint the position of an opponent by using negative-loaded terms, it's standard practice in op-ed journalism, but it has grown worse as the quality of today's journalism degrades. This is not to say we should ignore this if a reasonable proportion of commentators ascribe a label to a person (to do that would violate UNDUE) but we shouldn't presume that to be a fact stated in WP's voice. I can fully appreciate that the same natural behavior to belittle people ideologically against you would lead us as editors to want to focus on the negatives for a person or group and justify including those labels, but we need to rise above that per our neutrality to put our personal biases away and make sure that subjective and biasing language made by the media is at least attributed to the media, taking WP out of the picture of the situation otherwise. This may seem a pointless exercise for someone like Duke, but because that gray area for labeling is extremely large and continually growing as this culture war persists, we should adopt an approach that is universal that attributes any subjective term regardless if it is appropriate or not.
I will say that there are two exceptions that should be made: self-identification, and for long-dead people or groups that have long since ceased to exist, where scholars have settled on how that person/group will be remembered. But it is surprising that when I go back to look for examples in this area, on historical figures known to have "bad" qualities, we rarely touch on any labels in the lede section. So I think a lot of this is also related to editors writing too much for WP:RECENTISM and not working towards the longer-view. That is, consider how we'd right Duke a decade out from after he died? We wouldn't be emphasizing these labels in the lede if we follow the trend of other bios of deceased people. --MASEM (t) 16:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I'm sorry. I really don't mean to beat dead horses, and Flyer22 has been aptly representing my viewpoint. But again, I think you're on a slippery slope to the proposition that we must correct inherent errors in the reliable sources, and that to me is unacceptable. With that I'll wish you and everyone else a good day, and I'll try to mind my own business! Dumuzid (talk) 16:43, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I never said that RSes were wrong. I said that they have inherent biases (which has gotten worse over the last decade) which per WP:BIAS we are not supposed to follow. Attributing a subjective claim to an RS does no harm (and strengthens our sourcing policy) while blindly repeating a subjective claim as fact just because an RS said it can possible be harmful to us. --MASEM (t) 17:02, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, what a blatant misrepresentation. Attributing statements is not "correcting". Attributing statements is the most neutral way to say something. We're not here to adopt the viewpoint of "reliable sources" we're here to document the viewpoint of "reliable sources" (this is quoted because what counts as reliable is debatable and consensus can change) --Kyohyi (talk) 18:19, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Blatant misrepresentations are far better than the subtle variety, if you ask me! Dumuzid (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, believe what you will. However, in my experience subtle misrepresentations are often the result of misunderstandings. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:25, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Masem, I would state more, but I think we (you and I) are arguing in circles at this point. Like I stated, we don't fully agree. "Fully" is the key word. And, for the record, I do think we would be very clear, in the lead of Duke and Cobb's articles after their deaths, that they were white nationalists; both are mainly known for their white separatism (what others would call racism, especially in their cases). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IMHO, when one gets to characterizations of individuals in broadly contested political areas:

  • WP:"reliable" sources are generally not reliable on that statement, they are just biased political opinion (I.e. a primary source on their own opinion, not a secondary source on the individual that they are commenting on.)
  • Characterizations are just characterizations, in these cases they not usually encyclopedic information. When in doubt leave them out and put in actual information about the individual instead.

Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 16:33, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • A good example of abuse of labels is alt-right which the press (and wikipedia) has applied to: Baked Alaska (entertainer), Steve Bannon, Mike Cernovich, Charles C. Johnson, Alex Jones (radio host), Jack Posobiec, Milo Yiannopoulos and others. I don't know many of these people intimately but as far I know none are white nationalists. Yet our article on alt-right, linked in each of their opening paragraphs, defines it at a "group [...] with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism." Through a combination of poor journalism and poor policy and application the uninformed reader would believe all of these subjects are white nationalists when most (none) of the mainstream press supports that description.
Even worse, the text: "Popular Ideas: Dark Enlightenment - White Nationalism - White Supremacism" is displayed prominently in the category box at the bottom of each of their articles.
I see the main problem in this instance as application of an ill-defined label which many of the subjects reject, as opposed to say "conservative", which is rarely rejected. A potential solution would be to create a list contentious labels not to be used unless embraced by both the press and the subject. James J. Lambden (talk) 20:06, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is a good example, while sources use the term, are they using the term in the same way we're defining the term on Wikipedia. If not, than the wikilink and the loaded language that comes with it creates a BLP violation. --Kyohyi (talk) 20:44, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@James J. Lambden: @Kyohyi: these are very good points --- with evolving or ill-defined labels that are value-laden, we run into serious problems when using RS that were not even written with the reader's definitions in mind. ("White supremacist" is indeed an interesting example because many people seem to use it as a placeholder for "white nationalist".) It should be considered a violation of WP:IMPARTIAL tone and/or WP:VAGUE when a label is used in wiki voice according to its mildest definition, considering that many people will read it according to the average or strictest definition.
What may be important is an update to WP:LABEL specifying that Value-laden labels—such as calling an organization a cult, an individual a racist, terrorist, or freedom fighter, or a sexual practice a perversion—may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution. Vague and value-laden labels should only be used in authoritative voice ("terrorist John Smith" or "John Smith is a terrorist" when widely used by reliable sources in the same way ("terrorist John Smith" or "John Smith is a terrorist") and when it is clear that these labels were intended to take their standard definition (which should be reflected on the wiki article describing the label).
--Nanite (talk) 04:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nanite ...in which case use in-text attribution. I think there are exceptions to this and I disagree that it should be a policy to which we default - see my last post in on this notice board (far below). Attribution can potentially be misapplied to create problems of its own, namely giving the impression of a narrower range of sources than that from which a quote or term has actually been derived - or in the case where attributions are listed, giving the impression that an attack piece has been compiled from list of sources compiled to cast the subject in a negative light. In cases where use of a word is widespread, using the word without in-text attribution but with sufficient citations is preferable to maintain impartiality and encyclopedic language and style. Edaham (talk) 05:12, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Edaham - Ah yes I saw that, it was a good point. For example if a wide variety of sources say "Richard Spencer is a white supremacist" where they literally mean "Richard Spencer believes that white people are superior in many ways to people of other races and that therefore white people should be dominant over other races" then in that case we should certainly not use in-line attribution, because we are reliably informed that he's a white supremacist (no matter that it's a nasty term). By the way in this particular case I've read a few of the sources and I don't think that's what they mean, and so I think it's an equivocation error to just repeat their label. That said, I am very aware of the subjectivity of my interpretation as an editor and how much that should matter for wikipedia. ;-D   --Nanite (talk) 05:45, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there is a dispute about a description of a person or group then obviously we cannot use it without qualification, but when there is no dispute then we can use it. See for example Golden Dawn. The article says it is "far-right" and "Scholars and media have described it as neo-Nazi." While there is certainly that it belongs to the far right party family, there may be a question whether a group that denies links to Nazism can be described as neo-Nazi. But the distinction has nothing to do with how the party describes itself, but reporting in reliable sources.
I think terrorism is outside the scope of the discussion because it is not a political view but a tactic. It rightfully comes under guidelines which we are obliged to follow except where there is good reason not to. There is consensus for example that Abu Nidal and Osama bin Laden were terrorists and occassions when avoiding or qualifying that term would cast doubt on the consensus or require stilted language. Also, conviction by a U.S. court of something Congress has decided to call terrorism is insufficient to call someone that. That's the whole point of adding the term to WP:LABEL.
TFD (talk) 01:37, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion arbitrary break

Wikipedia's mission to 1. provide a neutral point of view and to 2. rely exclusively on reliable sources are mutually exclusive goals, because sources considered reliable in mainstream press and scholarship do not provide a neutral point of view. --BenMcLean (talk) 19:12, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very true. But until Wikipedia evolves to require actual reliable sources (those which are knowledgeable and objective regarding the statement which cited them) another good enclyclopedic article content concept helps which is, for borderline situations, provide information about the person, not opinions/ characterizations. North8000 (talk) 00:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
No. Your comment misunderstands NPOV policy. Some people wonder why we are called editors, it's because we are not authors of original thought, much less authors of our point of view. What is central to NPOV is we are purposefully presenting others' views -- not our own, that's the first sentence of NPOV policy. Is it difficult, surely, but your "mutually exclusive" argument makes no sense, as it is fundamentally based on a fallacy of what neutral point of view is. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:33, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So what you're saying is that "neutral" doesn't mean politically neutral. (a.k.a. the only kind of neutrality which would actually matter for an encyclopedia) It just means written in the third person? --BenMcLean (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This is actually a really important point. NPOV does not say to what vantage "neutral" is to be taken. There's probably lots of intermediate points but I suspect most editors read this either as being "neutral to the sources", or "neutral to a political/ideological stance". I note that NPOV does not specify either, it ends at the word "neutral"; only via interpretation of other policy do editors make a distinction. (eg With Alanscottwalker's statement above, since we can't engage in NOR and that we are not here to right great wrongs, that must mean neutrality is to what the sources say, whereas I would argue that with language like YESPOV, BLP, and LABEL that we are meant to be neutral to the political/ideological stance.) That has been a debate driving WP for many years now. In a perfectly ideal world, sources themselves would be objective and neutral on political aspects, so those two views then become one and the same. We're not in that world, and topics like this one clearly show there's an extremely large gap to try to cross, if not impossible to bridge. I'm not saying via this which is "right", but this is a way to frame the situation to understand where one side is coming from compared to the other, to understand the nature and origin of this gap, and how to deal with it. --MASEM (t) 23:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This discussion begins with:
Any editor who is voting no because of NPOV fails to realize that:
1. Verifiability isn't the only policy
2. This policy would be part of NPOV.
Are we seriously entertaining this farce? This discussion has nothing to do with NPOV and everything to do with a select group of people wanting to have a means to exclude reliably sourced material when it suits them for whatever reason. We've expended tens of thousands of words in the last week because some people don't like the fact that the word white supremacist ended up in Jared Taylor's article, owing solely to the fact that an immeasurable quantity of text from sources we commonly use to gather information describe him in this manner. There's another RfC on his page which originally began with a disclaimer to the effect of:"If you vote for option 1 you are in violation of wiki-policy" and was followed by cajoling and threatening of anyone who voted to describe him according to RS. Any one receiving this RfC notice should take a look at article talks for talk:Jared Taylor, talk:Identity Evropa, Talk:Richard Spencer as well as This RS notice board discussion etc and take a few moments to familiarize themselves with the reasons for people wanting to invest so much time to curtail the use of terms in common parlance in reliable sources. Edaham (talk) 05:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you mean Talk:Richard B. Spencer. Richard Spencer is a dab page. Snuge purveyor (talk) 15:02, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
many thanks, yes I did mean that. Edaham (talk) 05:57, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The Communist Party of China has (officially) never really deviated from Maoism. Kim Jong Un insists that his economic policies are exactly the same as Kim Il-Sung's. Gaddafi refused to even admit he was in charge of Libya, and constantly gave himself made-up titles and descriptions. This is a very short-sighted proposal that would put editors in the position of deferring to self-serving and intentionally obscure self-descriptions by the subjects of articles rather than relying on high quality sources. Nblund talk 16:03, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps the same high standards that are followed by WP:MEDRS should be applied to a newly authored guideline for WP:POLRS - disallow all breaking news within the first 5 days, place restrictions on partisan sources as we do alt med, fringe and pseudoscience, restrict the use of partisan sources, exclude bait & click and fake news, and emphasize NPOV, BLP, and V. There is no reason that wouldn't work except, perhaps, as a result of objections from partisan advocacies. Atsme📞📧 00:48, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
There's a very distinct pattern emerging in the debating style at work here... "Only vote "yes" if you're wrong", "I'm only wrong if partisan objections are an issue" - and of course the favorite - "if you object to my debating style you're attacking me personally". That aside. The issue of attribution seems to have taken center stage and the problem with attribution when a descriptive term is applied very widely throughout press and academia is that you have three options, all of which fail in some way 1) you can choose to attribute the most notable source, in which case you make it seem as if only that source applied the label 2) you can use weasel words like, "the subject has been widely described as...", which is a specific MOS issue and makes the article sound crap and un-sourced or 3) you can make a comprehensive list of attributions which makes the article unwieldy and risks making it sound even more like an attack page on which the author has scoured for negative sources and cherry picked them. The current decision is to unabashedly use the word which describes the subject best in an unsympathetic way without the intention to disparage. Someone made the point that we shouldn't be ruining this chap's life. That's true, but we also have no duty to save it if he goes and gets himself firmly and publicly entrenched in a category which evokes distaste among many people and indignation in others. Edaham (talk) 04:40, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I think that you "The current decision is to unabashedly use the word which describes the subject best in an unsympathetic way without the intention to disparage." is the real answer, if by "describes" you mean provides information about the person. At one end of that spectrum you have "John Smith is a bad person"...., at the other end "John Smith is a professional baseball player....". In the middle are political characterizations. The idea that the answer arises collectively from wp:reliable "reliable" sources is un-usable at best. Even if one methodically cataloged what sources say and extracted an answer, such would be synthesis. In reality, it's often done by cherrypicking, finding a biased (= unreliable) source that meets the wp criteria for a "reliable" source that says what one wants to put in the article. For characterizing people, one safer route is to stick to characterizations that are informative and truly widely held. North8000 (talk) 11:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That the word lies along along any kind of subjective pejorative scale is not the job of Wikipedia to discern. There are reliable sources which say the word moron is a pejorative term. As far as I know there's no such source which determines that white supremacist is a perjorative. The only thing I've been able to discern from my time researching the subject is that white supremacists don't like it and want to be called something else. All of this is noted in our articles which use this term. Synthesis would be to to treat the word as a pejorative according to the views of a fringe group and accordingly limit its use on Wikipedia without a source which clearly defines it as such. People keep bringing up wp:terrorist as an example. In this example the word casts the subject as a belligerent perpetrating violence outside the scope of a war. The word white supremacist does no such thing. It is used interchangeably with other terms like "idententarian" or "white nationalist" by the media and with distinctions by those who feel it sabotages the promotion of their ideology. Wikipedia makes this clear in several articles and I can see no reason to shy away from the term. Wikipedia isn't in any camp and doesn't need to rate this word in terms of its offensiveness. The only reason it's viewed as a pejorative by some people is because it more clearly connects meaning to action, and those actions if clearly described are distasteful to an enormous number of writers on this subject. Edaham (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Agree, but I think that you mis-understood my post and specifically the "scale" in my post. The scale was the degree that the label provided information, with "good/bad person" being the lowest. North8000 (talk) 16:17, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I see. Your use of "bad person" as opposed to baseball player made it seem like the scale was intended to differentiate between perjorative and non perjorative. I'm glad we find ourselves in agreement despite the confusion. Edaham (talk) 17:11, 18 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Blueboar There is a chilling example in the article Operation Entebbe that highlights you bracketed comment ("Don't call me a 'terrorist' I am a freedom fighter"). It is "As they did so, a Holocaust survivor showed Böse a camp registration number tattooed on his arm. Böse protested "I'm no Nazi! ... I am an idealist"." -- Wilfried Böse was a leading intellectual member of Revolutionary Cells (and clearly had the myopic view of a fanatic who had no understanding of how the rest of the world would see Germans of any political persuasion segregating people like this within living memory of the Holocaust).-- PBS (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@user:The Diaz you write "we shouldn't be able to call Donald Trump a liberal even though he clearly isn't one"? What do you mean by liberal? Was Lloyd George a liberal was Winston Churchill sometimes a liberal? It seems that you are being American language centric. -- PBS (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think some of comments in this conversation shows a lack of understanding of systematic bias in news media and academic discourse (often in part due to the Zeitgeist of the time). The section "Terrorism#Pejorative use" in the Terrorism article highlights many of these problems. One it highlights is that of historical perspective, eg what reliable source written about Mandela today would now label him a terrorist -- yet that was fairly common label in the Western media prior to his release form prison). Another of how sections of the American government and media were leery of labelling members of the IRA terrorists, while the vast majority of the UK media did. I found it ironic that when the US was bombed with IDEs (a favoured weapon the the IRA) then of course the American media almost without exception labelled such attacks terrorism. How does that sort of behaviour sit with the idea that just because lots of reliable sources label someone something that Wikipedia is not contributing to a systematic bias? In that "Pejorative use" section there is a quote that includes "generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore. ... if one party can successfully attach [a label] to its opponent, then it has indirectly persuaded others to adopt its moral viewpoint". This has been going on for centuries in politics see for example the origin of Tory, Whig and Prime Minister (the latter was an accusation levelled at Robert Walpole) or the use of "Patriot" by some Americans. -- PBS (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

During the last few months of last year and the first half of this year the Labour party in the UK (particularly those that live in the intellectual bubble of the chattering classes in London), had been frothing at the mouth over alleged antisemitism in the Labour party. I am not well enough versed in the internal workings of the Labour party to know if this is a genuine problem, or a political bludgeon to attack some close supporters of Jeremy Corbyn who is in a faction of the party that has expressed anizionist views (here are a couple of sources on the issue NYT Guardian book review). However the cynic in me has noticed that since the labour party's good showing in the recent election, there has been little in the press about the issue. So does that mean that Wikipedia biography on Ken Livingstone by simply stating in the lead that "In 2016, accused of bringing the party into disrepute, he was suspended from Labour." without mentioned the reasons is being biased in favour of Corbyn and would mention of antisemitism in the lead be biased against Corbyn? Ie would the use of the label "indirectly persuaded others to adopt its [proponent's] moral viewpoint"? -- PBS (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that this RfC is being approached from the wrong point of view. If there is not general consensus among reliable sources as to the political leanings of a person, then it is probably better to use the formula that is used for for contentious descriptions like terrorist, and do not use labels in the narrative voice of the article but use in-text attribution instead (per WP:LABEL) — This seems to work well in articles like Al-Qaeda. The old advise that used to be in WP:NPOV probably is the best approach "let the facts speak for themselves". -- PBS (talk) 14:24, 19 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Neutral_point_of_view&oldid=796246752

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