Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

Okay, given folks here are (presumably) interested in lead sections, why not amble over to Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Medicine-related_articles#MEDLEAD and chime in to whether there needs to be a separate guide on medical leads Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:02, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See discussion at Talk:Shadow_the_Hedgehog#MOS:FIRST. I'd consider just boldly making a change, but this example has been there for awhile, so best to double-check if there's any comments from the wider community. This wouldn't be a change to the guideline at all, just to the example given.

• If the article is about a fictional character or place, say so.<ref>For example: {{block indent|'''Homer Simpson''' is a fictional character in ''The Simpsons''.}}</ref>

The issue is that "fictional character" is redundant. A wikt:character is already understood as a literary device and thus not real; barring the rare scenarios where there's a risk of confusion (Stephen Colbert (character) or Grigori Rasputin (Hellboy) perhaps, both of which use different phrasings anyway), there's not really any need for the word "fictional". On the other hand, "fictional" is a good clarifier for something that could plausibly be read as real ("fictional hedgehog", "fictional soldier").

• If the article is about a fictional character or place, say so.<ref>For example: {{block indent|'''Donkey Kong''' is a fictional ape in the ''Donkey Kong'' and ''Mario'' video game series.}}</ref>

This wouldn't have any impact on wider Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Writing about fiction concerns - just this specific one case of wordcruft. Pick some other example of a "fictional (foo)", not "character". SnowFire (talk) 15:24, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I would replace "say so" with something along the lines of "make that clear/evident". "Say so" is informal and imprecise. Axem Titanium (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No objection to "make that clear" here. SnowFire (talk) 15:51, 14 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support Axem's idea. enjoyer -- talk 02:08, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm all for this. JOEBRO64 13:04, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. "Fictional character" is a long-standing problem. Popcornfud (talk) 14:37, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I went ahead and made the change. SnowFire (talk) 04:57, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Section "Editing the lead section" of this article does not appear to be correct. I visited my preferences and discovered that the "Add an [edit] link for the lead section of a page" option was already checked, yet I don't see any way to edit just the lead of an article. My test article is Hydrodynamic quantum analogs. David Spector (talk) 13:41, 2 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a MoS line on whether to include footnotes within the bold section of the first sentence? The Gangulphus article opens with "Saint Gangulphus^[1] of Burgundy is venerated as..." (the footnote offering other spellings of his name), which feels similar to MOS:TITLEABSENTBOLD, but I can't see that it's covered here. --Lord Belbury (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That seems preferable to the alternative of cluttering the first sentence by listing out all name variants in the first sentence of text. CUA 27 (talk) 19:41, 11 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely. Would seem better to put the footnote after "of Burgundy", or after the next mention of "Gangulphus" in the text, to me, I was just wondering if the style guide had a take on it. --Lord Belbury (talk) 08:14, 12 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am trying to follow the standard of:

If an article's title is a formal or widely accepted name for the subject, display it in bold as early as possible in the first sentence

I am editing mathematical articles such as S-Matrix and placing the article title before the referenced article where possible; isn’t this what I should be doing? UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 07:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

UHT seems to take the view that the name of the article ought to be the first word of the first sentence, and that any prepositional phrase must be placed after it. See changes like this at Root for an example, there are many more such changes. I see this as an extreme reading of 'as early in the sentence as possible' and believe it makes for some awkward constructions. Girth Summit _(blether) 07:37, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any prepositional phrase should be placed after if possible. Not must. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 07:40, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, placing the title first makes it easier for others to expand on it in such ways as, for example, to elaborate on the root of the word.

Please see:

Mathematics (from Greek: μάθημα, máthēma, 'knowledge, study, learning') UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 08:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For example we don’t start that article as:

In language, mathematics is… UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 08:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There isn't a need to on that case - mathematics isn't a branch of linguistics. Certainly not all first sentences need any kind of prepositional phrase, and I have no problem with someone judiciously removing them when they aren't necessary. What I object to is someone coming along and moving them en masse, so that we end up with lots of little parenthetical prepositional phrases getting in between the subject and the verb. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:18, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Then those prepositional phrases should probably be moved further down in the article, eventually, with the help of the wiki community, and expansions on more solid definitions of the article topic can be more easily developed. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 08:21, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's give others some time to review what you have been doing, and comment on whether they feel it was an improvement. I do not, but maybe others will. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:26, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Expanding on the root of the word is much easier if you open with the word as opposed to having it mid sentence; for example giving the Greek form of the word. This is an improvement. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 08:29, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

For example having the root of the word available, such as Set (/sɛt/; Egyptological: Sutekh - swtẖ ~ stẖ[a] or Greek: Seth /sɛθ/) helps people understand the word and the article. It also helps things like Google find priority topics more easily. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 08:35, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@UniversalHumanTransendence: I agree with Girth Summit that many of your edits (maybe all) on articles' initial sentences weren't improvements. I prefer to start with a context (e.g. "In physics,"), then name the articles' subject (e.g. "an S-matrix"), and then give its definition ("... relates the ..."). this way, the flow of thought needn't go from the subject back to its context, and then forward again to the subject's details. To my experience, most mathematics articles start following this scheme, indicating that a majority of editors like it, too. More generally, typesetting the subject in boldface wasn't necessary if it always should appear at the very beginning of the lead. And if you edit sentences, you should try to keep them grammatically correct; the subject of a sentence usually requires an article (or something similar) before it. BTW: it is not a purpose of Wikipedia to help Google. - Jochen Burghardt (talk) 15:09, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So you’re saying context should precede the article title if possible? Does this mean the article Ra should start with:

A diety, Ra 

And link to diety? UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 15:59, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

No - that's not a context, that's part of the definition that the rest of the sentence would deal with. You might choose to write 'In Egyptian mythology, Ra...', that would be a choice you make depending on whether or not you feel the subject requires context for the reader to understand it. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. I do not believe in Egyptian mythology, is required to give context just as in mathematics is not required to give context when on the Set (mathematics) page. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 16:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I do not believe 'in Egyptian mythology' is required before Ra; just as 'in mathematics' is not required before Set. If those were place in front, it would distract you from the article and redirect you elsewhere before you have even begun to read the definition. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 16:54, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Jochen Burghardt and Girth Summit that the formula "In <field>, a <term> is ..." is a good way to start an article. It immediately tells the reader the context, so we have "In agriculture, a field is...", "In mathematics, a field is...". The in phrase is context for the rest of the sentence and indeed the rest of the article.

This formulation is widely used and stable on Wikipedia, and so far, no one has come to support your position. So I suggest you stop beating a dead horse. There's no reason in making extended arguments; you've made your point and haven't succeeded in convincing others. --Macrakis (talk) 17:36, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well then we should add In Egyptian Mythology, to the beginning of the article Ra. UniversalHumanTransendence (talk) 19:19, 30 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If there were multiple common(!) subjects named Ra, with unrelated meanings, then I would probably agree with you. The example from @Macrakis of the many common(!) meanings of field is a good one. One wouldn't wish for someone to begin reading "a field is a set on which addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division are defined" and wonder whether the page will later describe a place where farmers grow food, or the place where a sporting event takes place, or a way to indicate various subjects of academic study.

However, in the case of Ra, it isn't necessary or helpful to pre-specify that this is the page about Egyptian mythology, because there aren't multiple common(!) subjects under the same name. Either you're looking for the article about this Ra, or you're looking for an uncommon subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Change Ahmadiyya Muslim Community to Ahmadiyya Community". Ahmadiyya Community is not a Muslim community they are non-Muslims. 2400:ADC5:181:6C00:314B:A01B:CFEA:DB2B (talk) 19:23, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Place this request on the talk page of the article you want to have the change in. You have accidentally posted it to the MOS talk page RudolfRed (talk) 19:46, 28 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]