Manual of Style

This page falls within the scope of the Wikipedia:Manual of Style, a collaborative effort focused on enhancing clarity, consistency, and cohesiveness across the Manual of Style (MoS) guidelines by addressing inconsistencies, refining language, and integrating guidance effectively.Manual of StyleWikipedia:WikiProject Manual of StyleTemplate:WikiProject Manual of StyleManual of Style articles This page falls under the contentious topics procedure and is given additional attention, as it closely associated to the English Wikipedia Manual of Style, and the article titles policy. Both areas are known to be subjects of debate. Contributors are urged to review the awareness criteria carefully and exercise caution when editing. For information on Wikipedia's approach to the establishment of new policies and guidelines, refer to WP:PROPOSAL. Additionally, guidance on how to contribute to the development and revision of Wikipedia policies of Wikipedia's policy and guideline documents is available, offering valuable insights and recommendations.

(moved from talk 'Naming conventions clergy') I've recently been extending 'St.' to 'Saint' in the text in several long editing runs. The guideline (EDIT: at the above, now removed) stated in its lead that this application would apply not only to titles but "on how to refer to them in the article body". Although I've made a few mistakes in titles and in text, it seemed pretty clear that in the text, when 'St.' refers to the individual (and not, of course, to a church, artwork, or other proper name) that it should be extended to 'Saint'. The abbreviation 'St.' doesn't even appear on the Saint page itself except for one proper name. Most pages that I've edited per this guideline are inconsistent, and include both 'Saint' and 'St.' when referring to individuals (often in the same sentence), and I've been editing out those inconsistencies by using 'Saint' (have stopped for the time being after an objection on my talk page). Consistency and the title guideline seems to suggest that 'Saint' is preferable in text to 'St.' when referring to a person, especially when Wikipedia usage is now so mixed that both forms are not only used on the same page but in paragraphs and even in the same sentences. A clarity discussion seems the next step. Randy Kryn 13:52, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• example of a messy state of affairs: the first one-and-a-half paragraph of Augustinians has (in this order): "... Augustine of Hippo ... St Augustine ... St. Augustine ... Saint Augustine ..." – some guidance would be welcome, but disagree that expanding it all to "Saint" would be anything near to a solution. Also the naming conventions guideline should emphatically *not* be interpreted as applying here, that would only further muddy the water. --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:18, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose this change, and interpreting the existing naming conventions text to cover article text too. Over-prescriptive. Appart from consistency within body text, I see no big issue here, and we should avoid instruction creep. I can see people (in general, & in future) itching to break WP:COMMONNAME here, & we shouldn't encourage it. I think even inconsistency within the text can be ok, for example when different people are referred to, or with "Saint" only at a first mention. The difference between "St." (American) and "St" (British) is often a matter for ENGVAR also, which might be noted somewhere. I don't think we need to change policy to allow harmonization within articles like Augustinians. Johnbod (talk) 12:22, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Personally, I don't like "St." (with full stop), because (in British English, at least) full stops are used to indicate abbreviations (letters dropped from the end of the word, possibly also within) but not contractions (letters dropped only from within the word). If we are to use a shortened form, it ought to be "St", without full stop, because with "Saint" → "St", the dropped letters "ain" are all within the word. But I have no opinion on whether we should write "St" or "Saint", except where there might be confusion, as with St John St, etc. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:35, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Even within BrEng full stops are a changing fashion. For instance do you write "Mr. Jones" or "Mr Jones" on an envelope? The former is how I was taught at school, but the latter seems more common recently. Within text it would be better to use "Saint" to avoid US/UK and traditional/modern arguments, plus (as you show) Saint John Street. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 14:49, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oops, just harmonized Augustinians, per Johnbod's suggestion above,... to "St." ([1]). I chose "St." because the first link with a "Saint", "St." or "St" in the article ticle, Rule of St. Augustine, uses that abbreviation in the current article title... Well, obviously, harmonization without additional guidance (as Johnbod suggests) would be tricky business. I remember Jr./Jr discussions not so long ago: for that reason, under current guidance, it seems best to leave this untouched if one doesn't want to be accused of tendentious style editing... --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:09, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'll agree there should be a general preference for "Saint" in text, but it partly depends on how thick the mentions of saints are. If there are just a few in an article, say on the early history of a place, then fine, but in dense articles on Catholic or Orthodox topics, with various saints cropping up a lot, I think most sources go to contractions, & I think our editors should be able to do the same. In any case, implementing any change properly would be a colossal task, involving editor time that could be better spent - I dread to think what a bot would do. Johnbod (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

? Nobody suggested you do this, and even less that this would be left to a bot. From where I stand Randy volunteered their time: don't see why we can't help them with a few good rules supported by consensus. Whatever your priorities, Randy is allowed to have theirs (this is a volunteer project). --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:26, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Opposed - Instruction Creep. I would support something that aimed at consistency within any given article... but there is no need for project wide consistency. If there is a dispute, it can be settled by local consensus. Blueboar (talk) 16:47, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support using "Saint", except in a specific proper name (usually of a place or institution named after a saint) for which the majority of reliable sources use "St.", "St", "Ste.", "Sta.", etc., as applicable. Agree that whether to include the "." in such names is a WP:ENGVAR matter, but it is is one that need never arise except for that narrow class of "named after saints and always abbreviated" things. Rule #1 of MoS (in its lead) is to rewrite to avoid dispute, and using "Saint", instead of a "St." versus "St" disputed abbreviation when possible, complies with that instruction. It also complies with the separate MOS:ABBR guideline, which has us avoid unnecessary abbreviation.

  Also, the entire point of a manual of style on any site like this is site-wide consistency, and virtually every line-item in our Manual of Style is intended that way; the few exceptions are explicitly worded to defer to per-article local consensus. It's time to put this silly "MoS is only for in-one-article consistency" myth to bed, since it's self-evidently false. If it were true, we would have no MoS, MoS could never be cited at RM or any other discussion about site-wide consistency practices, and what we would have instead would be innumerable topic-specific competing style guides all in conflict with each other, plus a great deal of reader and editor confusion. The fact that things were heading in that direction already in WP's early days is the reason that a centralized, site-wide MoS was instituted at all. So, let's just drop the pretense.
   — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:28, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Generally I would write 'Saint' for a name of a person (eg 'Saint Paul') but 'St' for the name of a place (eg 'St Paul's Cathedral'). --Sb2001 (talk) 20:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have supported WP:ANDOR a number of times, but I have found it to be problematic as well. Regardless of what MOS:QUOTE states about not changing quotes unless necessary, I've seen editors change quoted "and/or" text. And that includes an annoying WP:AND/OR sock who applies the rule to our guidelines as well, such as WP:TALK; see this discussion. He goes around calling "and/or" harmful. I have never seen it as harmful on Wikipedia. Instead, I've seen it as very helpful in that it gives precision to a matter that some people can find ambiguous because of how they view "or" and because it is not as cumbersome as stating "[this], [this], or both." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:38, 6 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Any opinions on this? Do editors think that this guideline should stay exactly as it is, instead of being softened? Guidelines are meant to guide; they are not meant to be policies. Use of "do not," or "avoid" in this case, as if there are never any exceptions, is not necessarily helpful. This guideline should at least be amended to note that quotes should be left alone (or generally left alone) in this case. NewsAndEventsGuy, Noyster, Alanscottwalker, Rivertorch, North8000 and Tvx1, you participated in the aforementioned discussion. Any opinions? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:41, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it alone. "Avoid" doesn't mean "absolutely never", and preserving quotes applies everywhere -- if someone's confused enough to not know that, then calling that out here may lead them to conclude changing quotes is OK elsewhere. One confused gnome isn't a reason to further bloat the guideline. EEng 22:49, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We can easily point editors to MOS:QUOTE in the section about and/or. And while "avoid" doesn't mean "absolutely never", it's usually taken that way on Wikipedia when it comes to guidelines. Our guidelines are treated as policies often enough without restrictive language such as "avoid." And it's not just one editor applying the and/or guideline strictly and/or inaccurately. I see it often enough, especially since I use patrol programs like WP:STiki. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:26, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also about changing quotes, there are exceptions; these exceptions are noted in the "Original wording" subsection of the MOS:QUOTE section. Fixing an uncontroversial typo or needing to use a bracket for a clarity matter are the only times I change quoted material in a Wikipedia article. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:40, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I also omit at times, per the guideline, but I always indicate this with an ellipses unless an ellipses is not necessary (such as when not including the rest of a quote unless the rest is important to include). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:46, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• And/or is now in the dictionaries, it's a widely used word, it serves a useful purpose, and there is no word that is a substitute. I see no reason for the MOS to conflict with that. North8000 (talk) 00:29, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• As written now, the guideline is ridiculous:

  "Where more than two possibilities are present, instead of x, y, and/or z write one or more of x, y, and z or some or all of x, y, and z."

  Try parsing that if you're in a hurry or preoccupied. More to the point, pity the reader left to parse what you've written when you've followed it. As for the sentence that comes before all that gibberish, I think it could say something to the effect of "Avoid writing and/or unless ambiguity would result or unless other constructions would be too lengthy or awkward". And then kill the gibberish. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 02:45, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When I said to leave the guideline alone, what I really meant was that nothing should be added about leaving quotes alone. I wouldn't mind seeing and/or allowed, if that's the consensus of the wisest of our style experts. Ping Tony1. EEng 03:22, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

EEng: that's very kind of you, but undeserved—I've been guilty of heinous crimes against the language. I agree with your posts: "avoid" is fine, and doesn't mean "never allow". The supposed connection with quote provisions in MOS is null. Of course "and/or" should be retained in quoted text. Tony (talk) 02:31, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, Tony1, I figured it takes a thief to catch a thief. EEng 03:08, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1, what is your opinion on what others have stated? For example, what Rivertorch stated? As for messing with quotes, you call it null, but my point is that this guideline is used strictly throughout Wikipedia. The guideline says "avoid," and that is exactly what editors do each and every time after becoming aware of the guideline...even when "and/or" is the better option and sometimes even when it is within a quote. I do not see that "and/or" should be advised against the way it is advised against now. Starting with Rivertorch's wording and improving upon that would be very helpful to the encyclopedia. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it could be explicit: "avoid wherever possible", or "avoid unless there's a good reason not to". In addition, I think we could probably fine-tune the guideline a little, but that's probably a matter for another day. Tony (talk) 05:23, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tony1, yeah, "avoid unless there's a good reason not to" is a good option. It's similar to Rivertorch's wording, which, as noted below, I support. I think one or two examples would suffice after that. As for "avoid wherever possible," I don't think that solves the issues. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:30, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, I support Rivertorch's proposal. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:44, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That stated, Rivertorch, the current wording is giving examples of what to do in place of "and/or." Do you want all of the examples killed or re-worded? I don't think they should all be killed. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 03:47, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not so sure we need examples, but I'm not intrinsically opposed to them. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 18:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the ping Flyer. The challenged sentence at WT:Talk page guidelines reads You may quickly find your questions and/or objections have already been answered if you try searching all the archives... Substituting "and/or" for "or" in that sentence is relevant only in the case of someone who has both questions and objections. If you have a multiplicity of concerns, though, you are unlikely to resolve them all "quickly" by hunting through all the archives. "A or B" is what is meant in such a case, not "A or B or A-and-B". But I'm not going to go to the stake about it: Noyster (talk), 08:52, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The current wording also takes a wrong case (3 items). And/or is used for 2 items. North8000 (talk) 12:16, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Noyster, do you support a change to the current wording of the WP:ANDOR guideline, like what Rivertorch stated above? Or do you should feel it should stay as is? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:47, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, go with "avoid unless..." – no advice on style should ever be seen as a commandment. That's not to encourage indiscriminate use of "and/or" where "or" is adequate: readers are usually well capable of telling whether an exclusive or or an inclusive or is meant in a given passage. The "good reason" for insisting on "and/or" would be a necessity to make it quite clear that "both A and B" was one of the options to be included. Or, of course, that the "and/or" appeared in quoted material – and if you feel a need to convey "well of course I would know better than to write that" we have {{sic}}: Noyster (talk), 08:44, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, Rivertorch, North8000, Noyster, Tony1 and EEng, there appears to be consensus to soften the guideline just a bit. So should one of us go ahead and try a different version or should we have an RfC for this because it is a guideline? I know that changes are made to this page all the time without RfCs, but I'm just asking in case some editors view this as a change that needs substantial discussion. If we are all on board with changing the guideline, what wording should we use? We have Rivertorch's proposed wording, Tony1's and Noyster's. I prefer something along the lines of "Avoid unless." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:16, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I hope an RfC will be unnecessary. (Maybe if someone reverts the change.) I don't have strong feelings on the exact wording. "Avoid unless..." makes sense. Even if the change is unchallenged, it won't be set in stone. We can always tweak it, if that seems desirable. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 22:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, did I miss where some actual new guideline text has been proposed? I think what we need is "avoid unless needed to clarify/emphasize that inclusive or is meant". EEng 22:47, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that it's clear that and / or should be allowed, but I'm not overly concerned about the outcome. I've just been showing up when pinged. North8000 (talk) 23:57, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

EEng, Rivertorch made a wording proposal above; it is pretty much "avoid unless." Tony1 suggested "avoid wherever possible" or "avoid unless there's a good reason not to". Noyster stated "go with 'avoid unless...'" and elaborated on his line of thinking. I noted that I support "avoid unless" wording. And you've just stated that you think we need "avoid unless" wording. So I'm asking if one of us should go ahead and implement it, and what else do we state after that? Do we change anything else about the guideline, per what Rivertorch and Noyster stated?

North8000, I see. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:25, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: What is the semantics of "and/or" supposed to be? It strikes me as legal faux precision: a sign says "These seats reserved for passsengers who have a broken leg or are carrying a baby", and someone tries to claim this means that a passenger with a broken leg who is carrying a baby may not sit on them. So all that "and/or" does is clarify that "or" means "or", not "exclusive or". It should never be necessary in carefully written prose; contrary to a comment above, it is plainly not a word, it is two words separated by a slash. Can anyone give an example where the best written form of some statement has to include it? Imaginatorium (talk) 02:00, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Take the Sexual orientation article, for example. It currently states, "Sexual orientation is an enduring pattern of romantic or sexual attraction (or a combination of these) to persons of the opposite sex or gender, the same sex or gender, or to both sexes or more than one gender." It does this cumbersome "or" thing partly because of the WP:AND/OR guideline. It would be much better with some instance of "and/or" used for it. The American Psychological Association uses "and/or" (as seen with this link) when speaking of sexual orientation, but we shouldn't? We don't use the American Psychological Association's initial definition due to past discussions about how to begin the introduction; this includes the fact that many people these days don't identify as men or women, and the fact that some of the sexual orientation sources are in line with the sex and gender distinction.

The Sexual identity article currently states "with identity referring to an individual's conception of themselves, behavior referring to actual sexual acts performed by the individual, and sexual orientation referring to romantic or sexual attractions toward persons of the opposite sex or gender, the same sex or gender, to both sexes or more than one gender, or to no one." Some instance of "and/or" would help in this case as well. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 02:50, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Sexual orientation is an enduring pattern of romantic or sexual attractions to others, according to their sex, gender, or both." Tony (talk) 08:26, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo Tony! I think the choice of subject matter almost exemplifies what I am getting at, but I would genuinely be interested if anyone can show an example of good, clear expository writing including the "and/or" construction, and explain the distinction in semantics between "or" and "and/or" (or "and" and "and/or", depending on context). The length of this discussion itself is relevant: in the MOS, it is always going to be easier to agree on writing "and/or" than trying to sort out what is really being said; this does not make it good writing. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are other issues with the "and/or" restriction. And it is a restriction. See more below. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• How about Avoid writing and/or unless ambiguity would result and/or other constructions would be too lengthy and/or awkward. All in favor, raise your hands. OK, seriously...

I've changed my mind. I'm not sure we need to change the guideline at all. I'd like some examples of text that can be best written using and/or and no other way. EEng 03:37, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There are two questions here: (1) What do we think of "and/or"? Do we advocate avoiding it altogether, avoiding it unless clearly better in context than plain "or", or remove any guidance? (2) Should we soften language in the MOS to accommodate those who would otherwise over-interpret its guidance as "must" and "prohibited"? I think the answer to (2) is "no", and we should decide the matter according to (1) only. Opinions differ: "and/or" is never indispensable, and is often sloppily used to avoid thinking whether "or" would meet the case; but there are some who prefer it to "A or B or both", and I don't see it as harmful if properly used, i.e. to specify that the "both A and B" case is to be included where that would otherwise be in doubt: Noyster (talk), 09:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I finally looked at the actual text. I suggest that the first sentence is fine; it says "avoid", not "banned", or anything like it. The top of the MOS page has a clear statement that this is a styleguide, not a set of military orders. The second sentence, however, is, as already remarked, ridiculous, and should be deleted: "...suffering from burns, smoke inhalation, or trauma" is utterly clear. Imaginatorium (talk) 10:05, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

____________

Current text:

Avoid writing and/or: Instead of Most suffered trauma and/or smoke inhalation, write simply trauma or smoke inhalation (which would normally be interpreted to imply or both); or, for emphasis or precision, write trauma or smoke inhalation or both. Where more than two possibilities are present, instead of x, y, and/or z write one or more of x, y, and z or some or all of x, y, and z.

Proposed text:

Avoid and/or. Instead of trauma and/or smoke inhalation, write simply trauma or smoke inhalation (which would normally be interpreted to imply the possibility of both). For special emphasis or precision, write trauma, smoke inhalation, or both. Avoid especially cases like x, y, and/or z. The intention is not clear. In the rare cases where it is necessary, some more precise and complex form can be used: one or more of x, y, and z; or some or all of x, y, and z.

Tony (talk) 14:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The "and/or" restriction sometimes gets in the way of straightforward writing. Another example is the current lead sentence of the Sexual intercourse article. It used to state "into the vagina for sexual pleasure or reproduction." But because editors occasionally interpreted the "or" as exclusive and because the WP:ANDOR guideline advises us against using "and/or," it was changed to "into the vagina for sexual pleasure, reproduction, or both." Why must we state "sexual pleasure, reproduction, or both"? It doesn't flow as well as "sexual pleasure and/or reproduction." In fact, it's a little awkward. When I see it, I'm like: "Or both? Well, duh." But when I see "and/or," it just seems like a seamless statement. Why not just "sexual pleasure and/or reproduction", which is something else editors would change the text to when they felt that the "or" was exclusive?

I can point to a number of examples where the WP:ANDOR guideline gets in the way. I know that I've pointed to sexual topic examples so far, but that is because I mainly edit medical and sexual topics. The guideline says that "or" would normally be interpreted to imply the possibility of "both." But people too often interpret the "or" as exclusive. And adding "or both" can have the awkward, unnecessary feel. Imaginatorium stated that the first sentence says "avoid", not "banned", but, like I noted above, "avoid" is interpreted as "don't ever." Anyone who has been editing this site for a significantly long time knows that our guidelines are often treated like policies. People enforce the guideline at every turn, as though there is never any leeway; this comes up enough at the WP:Words to watch guideline talk page, for example. That guideline is used so strictly so often that it led us to state "The advice in this guideline is not limited to the examples provided and should not be applied rigidly." at the top of that guideline and put the "should not be applied rigidly" aspect in bold. And yet editors still interpret the guideline rigidly. Most of the time, they don't even read the lead because they are only looking at a section of the guideline via a shortcut. Usual MOS editor SMcCandlish would support me on how strictly that guideline is used, but he hasn't edited since March 17. Either way, see what he stated here.

Tony1's latest suggestion doesn't allow for as much leeway as the "Avoid unless" proposals do. Editors were on board with "Avoid unless." We have two so far who seem to be against it. Are you against it as well, Tony1? If so, why? Why not soften the guideline a bit when it really is interpreted as "never use and/or"? Any time "and/or" is used, it is removed, even if it's better. During its removal, the editor points to this guideline for their justification of removing it. I have done the same. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 19:08, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still waiting for a piece of well-written, sounds elegant when read out, expository text in which "and/or" adds something semantically. Why are the only examples given on subjects which are not being neutrally described, but are weighed down with political baggage. I mean, really, "The reason for the insertion of his and/or her penis and/or penises in her and/or his vagina is: ____" (complete in your own words). Imaginatorium (talk) 12:35, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rivertorch, since everyone above in this section except seemingly two (Imaginatorium and EEng) supports "Avoid unless," the next step should be an RfC, right? Obviously, there are different opinions on this matter, and Noyster's "09:32, 13 April 2017 (UTC)" comment above highlights that. I'd rather start an RfC and see what the community decides on, rather than let this issue go stale. Like Noyster stated above, "Opinions differ: 'and/or' is never indispensable, and is often sloppily used to avoid thinking whether 'or' would meet the case; but there are some who prefer it to 'A or B or both', and I don't see it as harmful if properly used, i.e. to specify that the 'both A and B' case is to be included where that would otherwise be in doubt." I'm certainly one of those who prefers to it to "A or B or both." I've only unnecessarily gone with "A or B or both" because of this guideline. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 18:21, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I'd support Tony's proposed text above. EEng 21:13, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Flyer22 Reborn: If you think it's important enough for an RfC, go for it. To be frank, I'm dubious. You've pointed out—correctly, I think—that the current "Avoid" wording is suboptimal in practice because, for whatever reason(s), some users take it to be a blanket prohibition. In those instances, if the replacement wording is unclear or ungainly and cannot be elegantly fixed, I'd be inclined to restore "and/or" with explanation. One would be justified on at least two levels in doing so: first, because MOS is a guideline, not a policy, and second, if necessary, per WP:IAR, because clarity is way more important than style. I'm guessing such instances would be few and far between, and that in most cases local consensus would be easy enough to attain. If I'm wrong about that, then maybe an RfC would be best, but I predict that an RfC at this time would not result in clear consensus to amend the wording as you and I might prefer. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 04:08, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rivertorch, thanks. I'll wait a day or two and see if anyone else has anything more to state on this matter. After that, if it still appears that the guideline will start off with the restrictive "Avoid" wording instead of an "Avoid unless" wording, I'll start a wide-scale RfC on this topic...in a similar vein to the wide-scale RfC about the four-paragraph standard for the lead of our articles (but not that setup, obviously); I will alert those WikiProjects and likely others. Not sure yet if I will start the RfC here or at the WP:Village pump (policy). As for the guideline not being changed as a result of the RfC, I think it will be. And for the better. I don't think that most editors will want to retain such restrictive wording. I could be wrong, but we'll see. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 05:12, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. My powers of prognostication in these areas are often flawed. Sometimes the community surprises me, and in a good way. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 12:14, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I don't particularly dislike saying "avoid unless..."; above I agree with Tony's sentiment in the draft, but I am sad to see that it makes the whole thing longer. I would really prefer to see something like "Generally avoid metalinguistic constructions such as 'x/y', or 'a (b)'...", where there are surely other very similar ones to "and/or", and there are (sorry, no good example springs to mind) cases of "something (some-other-name-for-it)". I call these "metalinguistic", because this is what they are: they tell the reader to choose either of the words to insert in the space. I do not think good writing does this. At the same time, of course it is better to write "and/or" if the political baggage makes it impractical to write anything else, but as I said at the beginning this is legal "faux precision". The semantics of "and" and "or" in real language are not the clearcut equivalences of the logical operators with the same names. Imaginatorium (talk) 12:43, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we often see such legalistic "faux precision" in contributions from tyro writers, such as "25 (twenty-five)", "if and when", or "including but not limited to...", all cases like "and/or" where such usages are sometimes justifiable but very often not: Noyster (talk), 08:55, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• (edit conflict) To me, the increased length of the proposed text has little or no payoff since it adds context that is already implied, e.g. The intention is not clear. If anything, I think the rule could be softened, at least a tiny bit. In many cases inclusive-or is the natural interpretation of "or". Where it is not, adding "or both" or some such can be a natural way to disambiguate. However in some cases "and/or" can be quite reasonable when the workarounds turn out to be clunky, and it's in abundant use today -- just look at Google News. Manul ~ talk 13:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To make this more concrete, sometimes the inclusiveness of "or" is not obvious and you don't want the emphasis that "and both" gives. Flyer's example of "sexual pleasure and/or reproduction" is pretty good. There is some inclusive-or vibe to "sexual pleasure or reproduction", but it still sounds a bit odd. However adding "or both" here seems like overemphasis: humans, generally, don't need it pointed out to them that making a baby can also be fun. Manul ~ talk 13:26, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I concur with 'Leave it alone. "Avoid" doesn't mean "absolutely never", and preserving quotes applies everywhere', other than I support Tony1's copyediting proposal for the section. "And/or" is vastly overused by the average amateur writer, and usually redundant. There are technical contexts in which its use is meaningful, and MoS does not preclude them absolutely, but already shows how to rewrite them to be clearer. Trolling and socking behavior is a disciplinary/behavior issue for admins to deal with, and has nothing to do with the question. Same goes for disruptively changing the text of quotations intentionally. Both of those behavior issues are red herrings.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:01, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Avoid" without "Avoid unless" is not good enough, per what I and others argued above. The problem is that "Avoid" is interpreted strictly and is not allowed any leeway. It just isn't. I've gone ahead and started the RfC below. As noted above, I will advertise it to the pages seen in the aforementioned WP:Lead dispute (in that order), and probably at other pages. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RfC: Should the WP:ANDOR guideline be softened to begin with "Avoid unless" wording or similar?

One view is that the WP:ANDOR guideline is too restrictive because there are some instances where using "and/or" is the better and less cumbersome or less awkward option. Editors have noted that stating "and/or" can be more concise and less awkward than stating "[that], [that], or both," or some more elaborate construction. There is the argument that the guideline beginning with "avoid" is usually interpreted to mean "don't ever" when it comes to applying "and/or," and that this has resulted in an unofficial ban on "and/or" on Wikipedia. It has also been noted that the guideline is sometimes interpreted as applying to quotes as well, despite what MOS:QUOTES states about not usually tampering with quotes. The other view is that the guideline is fine as is, and that "avoid" doesn't mean "never." This view argues that "and/or" should usually be avoided or is rarely needed. This view argues that most and/or constructions can be easily rewritten. If someone is applying the guideline too strictly, then it's a matter that can be worked out on the article's talk page, or handled at an appropriate forum like WP:ANI. To resolve the dispute with the guideline, softening the guideline to begin with "Avoid unless" instead of "Avoid," has been proposed. One suggestion has been to change the initial wording to the following wording: "Avoid writing and/or unless ambiguity would result or unless other constructions would be too lengthy or awkward."

Do you support or oppose softening the WP:ANDOR guideline? And why? For those viewing this from the RfC page or from an alert on their talk page, see the initial main discussion above for further detail. As noted above, a number of Wikipedia pages will be alerted to this RfC since this RfC affects Wikipedia on a wide-scale level. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

Discussion

According to § Images, bullet-point 3:

• Each image should be inside the major section to which it relates (within the section defined by the most recent level 2 heading or at the top of the lead section), not immediately above the section heading.

(emphasis mine) but if there are subsections (level 3 or deeper) and we have more specifically relevant images for them, shouldn't each image go in its specific subsection rather than stacking them all in the level-2 intro? I think the goal is to avoid dangling images down from an earlier section when we want them to appear at the beginning of any section, not to hoist images to a higher-level section than appropriate for content reasons. I propose changing "major" to "specific" and removing "level 2" in this guideline. DMacks (talk) 14:15, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would agree with DMacks. I'm wondering when that "major" wording was added and whether there had been discussion about it. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:24, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it dates back to March 2010‎, mainly this change based on this discussion. I don't had time to read it now, will follow up later... DMacks (talk) 16:46, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The points made in that 2010 discussion about edit links becoming separated from their headings no longer apply. The problem (part of which is covered at WP:BUNCH) was fixed a few years ago, circa 2011 IIRC. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:04, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer what it says at MOS:IMGLOC (which I think I might have written, actually): An image should generally be placed in the most relevant article section; if this is not possible, try not to place an image "too early" i.e. far ahead of the point in the text discussing what the image illustrates, if this will puzzle the reader. People know without being told, from seeing in existing articles if no other way, that heads of sections are the default placement., EEng 22:47, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We should still say something about putting images after rather than before the section heading, so they go inside the section. Some editors (me before I knew better) may have an aesthetic preference for an image that starts at the same line as the section title, but accomplishing that involves putting the image into the wrong section in the logical structure of the document, and that will likely mess up other formatters (such as the one for the mobile app) that use that logical structure to produce a different placement for images. But I agree, there is no reason to avoid putting images into sub-sections. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:27, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Apart from aesthetics, the main reason for not putting images at the bottom of the preceding section/subsection is accessibility. If a user of screen-reader software navigates the article using the table of contents, they are taken directly to headings, and not to a prior point. The heading is read out to them, and then any content that follows the heading - that content might be images, text or both. Although they might not be able to "see" the image in a visual sense, they are still made aware of its presence, and the caption (if present) plus any alt text are read out. They miss all this if the image is before the heading that they had jumped to. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:19, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but the same is true if the image is anywhere else in the article. Images aren't always in the pertinent section, because there are other considerations for image placement. EEng 08:27, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So we can drop a couple of words and a figure to give

• Each image should be inside the section to which it relates (within the section defined by the most recent heading or at the top of the lead section), not immediately above the section heading.

We can mention accessibility here too. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can we please say, "Ideally, an image should be ...", so it sounds less rigid? EEng 09:30, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That seems like a reasonable clarification, since it is technically not feasible to do so in many articles.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:19, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Following a discussion at the Language helpdesk, I propose 'eg', 'ie' and 'etc' should be written for British English articles, whilst 'e.g.', 'i.e.' and 'etc.' are used for US English articles. This means US articles can follow the guidance of US style guides and UK articles can follow the guidance of UK style guides.

See the following; Guardian style guide - 'eg no full points' UK government style guide - 'eg, etc and ie' Economist style guide - 'ie and eg' University of Oxford style guide - 'etc', 'eg' and 'ie'

Also (as contributed by Alansplodge) University of Cambridge educational style guide: "Do not use full stops in these common abbreviations: eg, am, pm, op, no, cf, ie, ed, etc or after Mr, Mrs, Prof or Dr".

And again, BBC NEWS STYLE GUIDE: "Eg ie no full stop".

And finally Editorial Style and Writing Guidelines - NHS Connecting for Health: "Common abbreviations such as, ie, eg and etc should be written without full stops".

As 'The Rambling Man' comments, 'there seems to be good evidence to support an ENGVAR split in punctuation'.

'Jnestorius' summarised that 'style guides for web publications are more likely than those for hardcopy printing to favour eg over e.g'. Since Wikipedia is a website, it would make sense to apply this split here. I would - however - note that the Guardian and the Economist are printed publications. --Sb2001 (talk) 15:15, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting that HMG warns that screen readers get confused (e.g. -> egg) and that Oxford justifies the change on the basis of saving ink! Martin of Sheffield (talk) 15:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about whether to support an ENGVAR split on this, but I just have to say that to my American eyes, all these abbreviations without periods (full stops) look amazingly odd. I can understand, perhaps, leaving out the periods after "Mr", "Dr", etc., but with eg, am, pm, op, no, cf, ie, ed, and etc, some of them look like words, which can cause some confusion to a native speaker of English but even more to a non-native speaker of English. The abbreviations without periods/full stops provide fewer clues that the letters represent separate words and assumes that the reader knows the Latin words of which they are abbreviations. I wonder whether the practice of leaving out the periods/full stops on titles and abbreviations arose when people were using manual typewriters to type, and it meant one less key to punch on the typewriter, saving not only time but actual physical effort. Now that we have ergonomic computer keyboards that only require a light touch on the keys, perhaps we have no excuse to leave the periods/full stops out. I know that it all comes down to what you're used to, but also, I know that Wikipedia has developed its own style in some things, including punctuation. We are not necessarily bound to follow prevailing style guides.  – Corinne (talk) 16:16, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Corinne: well, to my aging British eyes, many of these also look very odd without stops. There is a well established and principled British style that only uses a stop at the end if that's where letters are omitted. So "Mr", "Mrs", "Dr" because the omitted letters are internal, but "Prof.", "e.g.", "ed.", etc. because the omission is at the end. There's a case for "am" and "pm" in forms like "2 am" by analogy with "2 cm". Personally I wouldn't go beyond these in British English articles. There's no good reason to decrease consistency. Peter coxhead (talk) 16:35, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This British English editor makes a point of including those dots in her own writing. Of the sources that give a MoS, it should be noted that saving ink is irrelevant to wikipedia (Oxford), and gov.uk has a policy of writing to the lowest education level practical in order to avoid being accused of making essential government reports and services inaccessible. The NHS MoS would simply repeat the gov.uk MoS, as it is still (for the time being at least) a government-controlled body. Listing their MoS separately is just padding the claim. It seems reasonable to assume that wikipedia isn't writing to the lowest education level that doesn't fit the legal definition of mentally disabled. The simple fact is, there is not actually a consensus regarding dots in these abbreviations. Rhialto (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Peter, excpet for the fact that I still tend to use the older style of full stops after Mr., Mrs. or Dr. It's the way I was taught way back in the year England won the World Cup (which is a bit of a hint which side of the Atlantic I come from). Martin of Sheffield (talk) 17:50, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The assumption this is about saving ink is just wrong. It is also wrong that it is about typewriters. As someone in education rather more recently than the rest of you seem to have been, I can tell you that in the UK it is no longer recommended to abbreviate with full stops. Part of the educational process involves referring to style guides, grammar books, etc and I can tell you everything I have read which has been recently published says not to include full stops. The point of this discussion is to come to a conclusion as to whether Wikipedia should follow the more up-to-date way of writing these common abbreviations in British English. In response to @Rhialto 's claim that 'eg', etc is about making things accessible to all, for one - why should Wikipedia not be accessible to all, and my education certainly was not of poor quality - I was told to write with no full stops. These rules have only been adopted recently, so may seem unfamiliar to some. I can say that examination boards in the UK all (or at least that I have come across) include examples using 'eg' for their associated paperwork. Part of the reason I started this discussion is as some instances of 'eg', etc in UK articles were removed in favour of 'e.g.'. A potential solution to this could be to allow both, maybe with the aim of moving towards the new standards. --Sb2001 (talk) 18:12, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Rhialto: The inclusion of the NHS' style guide was to demonstrate support from other users, not to pad the claim. I was not aware the NHS had a style guide until this discussion. It is actually quite different to that of the government, including what it says about 'eg', etc. --Sb2001 (talk) 20:05, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't attempting to make any comment on the education levels of other editors here - simply on the official intent of the gov.uk manual of style. As a former government employee, I had access to the documents that explained the official reasoning behind their MoS decision-making process. I'd love to point you to them, but those documents were on an intranet and not to my knowledge public. Rhialto (talk) 21:02, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The comment about saving ink is from Oxford: "If there are multiple (correct) ways of doing something, choose the one which uses the least space and the least ink" (page 1), so if you are quoting them as an authority you shouldn't dismiss it as "just wrong". I think you have also misunderstood the HMG advice: "eg can sometimes be read aloud as ‘egg’ by screen reading software. Instead use ‘for example’ or ‘such as’ or ‘like’ or ‘including’ - whichever works best in the specific context." To make it plain, they are saying that not using punctuation renders the text so unclear that it is best avoided. If you look at the "E" page the title "eg, etc and ie" is about as unclear as it can get, it reads as "eg, etcandie". I wonder if a screen reader would say "egg ate candy"? I discussed this with an secondary school English teacher and although she wouldn't employ full stops after "Mr" would certainly use them in "i.e." or "e.g.".

Your assumption that a modern trend is necessarily either permanent or better than the traditional way is a common fallacy of journalism and other ephemera. Interestingly at a concert at the weekend the lyrics of 60s and 70s pop sounded far more dated that that of Thomas Weelkes (1576 – 1623), and personally I always find the KJV sounds less stilted than horrors like the NEB. Since the Americans seem to have retained a form which you understand, yet your form looks jarring and ill educated to older British readers perhaps we should employ a style which is accessible (vide HMG), easy on the eye (also HMG) and common to the greatest number of readers. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:01, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm amazed no one here seems to realize that "saving ink" here is figurative. "Ink" is just the opposite of "whitespace". No one's actually talking about saving actual, literal, physical ink. While I'm here, I completely agree with Martin -- dropping the dots/periods/stops may be hip, but to a lot of readers it looks completely daft. EEng 22:43, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I also agree with Martin's well-expressed opinion.  – Corinne (talk) 02:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the "whitespace" point, I suspect that's a red herring. The nature of wikipedia is that the text flows to fill the available space. Making the overall text shorter (by removing the dots) won't increase the total amount of whitespace; it merely makes the overall article length shorter. In fact, contrary to expectations, including the dots, by spreading out the spacing of those letters, would actually increase the total amount of whitespace (since a dot will force in a bit of whitespace around itself in the middle of the paragraph). Rhialto (talk) 05:14, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, current gov.uk MoS for eg/e.g., ie/i.e., and etc/etc. is "do not use". See here: https://insidegovuk.blog.gov.uk/2016/07/20/changes-to-the-style-guide-no-more-eg-and-ie-etc/ Rhialto (talk) 05:19, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think that should be more than an aside. HMG point out that there's an accessibility issue with these aperiodic abbreviations: software for the blind reads them wrong. This should also be a concern for us. —David Eppstein (talk) 05:58, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, as the author of that blog notes in the comments section of the blog, "It's a government website. Users shouldn't need to use a dictionary to understand it." This is an example of what I mean when I say there is a conscious decision to write to the lowest education level practical on government websites. As an encyclopaedia, this site does not have the same mission briefing. Rhialto (talk) 08:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

General comment: (I'm British, though I have not lived in the UK for 25+ years, and sometimes have difficulty reading what is supposed to be "English"). Many abbreviations in UK style use fewer dots than American ones (Mr Smith, am/pm (though isn't US generally small caps?), etc). But "ie" to mean "i.e." is just a (confusing) error. Citing millions of government documents is of no relevance: they cannot spell, they cannot punctuate, they cannot (actually) think; I know, because I have been struggling with incoherent questions from the DWP amongst others. WP uses "formal writing", which should mean no unecessary showoff jargon etc, but "written English", so "I am", not "I'm". Written English has completely disappeared from the language of government and commerce, but that doesn't (me, ok) mean we shouldn't use it. I just looked at the "Style guide" above, and it finally dawned on me that the people writing the style guide think that "eg" is an abbreviation (even while they recomment not using it). Grrrrmph. Imaginatorium (talk) 09:11, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what the current official policy is on such abbreviations, but the past general Wikipedia tendency has been to allow national variants in spelling, but not usually in punctuation. So Wikipedia follows British practice in that commas etc. are not automatically reordered before quote marks, but follows American practice in that outer quote marks should be double (not single) -- and so on. We probably shouldn't change this without a good reason... AnonMoos (talk) 09:35, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe it is a good idea to stop people writing these abbreviations, and instead write 'for example', etc as everyone can understand them. I have become used to seeing 'e.g.', but was very confused at first as it is not what I saw first. Some people are taught the other way around. A simple solution would be to not use them at all.--Sb2001 (talk) 13:07, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it is a good idea to use the full words such as "for example" when possible, but I don't think it's necessary to write out "that is" instead of "i.e." or "post meridiem" for "p.m." (and no, I don't see small caps used for that in the U.S.). I'm just curious: what do British academic journals and university presses use? Regarding the changing usage in journalism, I am increasingly seeing contractions in newspaper articles. I agree with Imaginatorium that government documents and any government style guides are not the best guides to good writing, and that in Wikipedia we should be using formal written English, but not so overly academic or obscure that articles will be incomprehensible to the average reader. Regarding the use of periods/full stops in abbreviations, does it make sense to make a distinction between the need for periods/full stops in titles (Mr, Mrs, Dr, etc.) in articles using British English and the need or periods/full stops in the other abbreviations? Can we say that, if the article is written in British English, it's all right for no period/full stop to be used in titles (with the understanding that periods/full stops will be used in articles written in American English) but that there will be a general policy of requiring/recommending periods/full stops for all the other abbreviations such as e.g. and i.e.? (I've kind of gotten used to seeing, and using, no periods/full stops for "am" and "pm", but wouldn't be opposed to requiring/recommending them for consistency.)  – Corinne (talk) 14:26, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

perhapswikipediashouldlookaheadandtrytosetatrendforachangeforhundredsofyearswevebeentyrannisedbypeopleinsistingonallsortsofridiculousextraneousstuffwhenallweneedis26lettersoopsand10numeralsisupposedidyouknowthataboutthetimeoftherussianrevolutiontheydecidednottobotherwiththeletterъwhichappearedattheendoflotsandlotsofwordsrepresentingasortofnullvowelwhichwasntpronouncedanymoreasaresultrussiannewspapersshrankby7%orsomethinglikethatwellthisisourbigopportunityareductioninpaperelectronskeypressesandeductinalstandardswillriseovernightImaginatoriumtalk201704111520utc

The MoS used to explicitly discourage use of i.e., e.g., and other Latin abbreviations per WP:NOTPAPER. I'm not sure why that was removed as it seems like good advice. Kaldari (talk) 18:04, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it was removed in 2005. Guess I'm getting old. Kaldari (talk) 18:10, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would oppose any change. This is not universal. As an English person who always writes most abbreviations without full stops, I wouldn't dream of writing eg or ie! It looks very weird to me. Claiming this is standard British usage is just not true. This is not an ENGVAR issue. It's a personal style issue only. I also agree, though, that generally these abbreviations shouldn't be used on Wikipedia at all. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would I be right in saying that people here do not - generally - oppose 'etc' being used as a BE equivalent to 'etc.'? This could be advised for UK articles, and then people can be asked to avoid using 'eg' or 'e.g.' and 'ie' or 'i.e.'. Many people seem to support this. Can I assume that this change is to go ahead unless there are a significant number of objections by, say, Sunday at 1.00pm UK time? --Sb2001 (talk) 20:44, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose not universal in BE and increasing ENGVAR differences is undesirable. Peter coxhead (talk) 20:54, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What is 'etc'? I write '&c'....RGloucester — ☎ 21:10, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Peter coxhead: I do disagree that 'etc' is not universal as I see it far more frequently than 'etc.' (which I actually only see on Wikipedia) and it is what is taught in educational establishments. Yes, you are right in saying regional splits in language are to be avoided, but surely UK articles should be written in a style which most people in the UK would understand, and apply themselves. I am willing to accept 'eg' and 'ie' are possibly as common as 'i.e.' in certain places, but do not accept the argument that 'etc' is not the generally accepted way of writing this abbreviation. I would just like to clarify the change I proposed at 9.44pm (UK) doesn't ask people to write 'eg' and 'ie', only 'etc'.--Sb2001 (talk) 21:11, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's demonstrably not universal. See here and here, as just two examples. It's clear that there's a strong trend in British English is to reduce or remove the use of stops with abbreviations and contractions, but it's far from universal. Peter coxhead (talk) 22:16, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose it's not universal in British English: it's sloppiness. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 12:23, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly not sloppiness, @Redrose64: most British style guides recommend it, and it is what you are taught to write currently in English. Would you and other editors be happy with both 'etc' and 'etc.' being options? --Sb2001 (talk) 13:17, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose: I think this discussion has made it clear that there is currently no strong consensus. Both dotted and non-dotted versions appear to be standards in use, and if there is a pattern at all, I suspect it is a generational issue. I certainly recall that it used to be taught that the dotted version was the correct one. For now, as long as every article is internally consistent on which is used, we should allow either version to remain in an article. Rhialto (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Updated change: 'etc' and 'etc.' are acceptable in UK articles. 'eg' or 'e.g.' and 'ie' or 'i.e.' should not be used in any articles. This means existing instances of this can be gradually removed from Wikipedia. People should avoid changing 'etc' to 'etc.' and vice versa in UK articles. --Sb2001 (talk) 00:08, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. Definitely keep the periods/dots/stops, whatever you like to call them. Even British/Commonwealth usage is not consistent in dropping them, and these constructions are difficult to interpret as abbreviations rather than words, unit symbols, and other stuff, especially by non-native English speakers. Many British/Commonwealth publishers that drop them are violating their own style guides by doing so, since Fowler's, New Hart's Rules, etc., typically advise dropping them only for abbreviations than start and end with the original letters of the full word ("Dr" from "Doctor"), and retaining them for truncations ("etc." from et cetera, which obviously does not end in "c"). The habitual dropping of all of them is a British/Commonwealth journalism practice, adopted for expediency (like dropping of capitalization in acronyms after the first letter, as in "Aids" for AIDS, an even more confusing and awful practice). Dot-dropping has been spreading, somewhat and inconsistently, to other forms of publishing in many non-North American parts of the "Anglosphere". But it's lazy and sloppy, and WP is not written in news style as a matter of policy, anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  It is most certainly not restricted to journalism. This view completely ignores what the University of Oxford and the University of Cambridge require. People who wish to write 'etc.' in UK articles will still be able to, however they may also write 'etc'. I do not understand why editors have an objection to this. There is some evidence to support both inclusion and omission of full stops. I will note that I have never commented on how US English teaching is wrong, and have never said spelling 'colour' as 'color' is 'lazy and sloppy'... --Sb2001 (talk) 02:09, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Didn't say it was "restricted" to journalism, I said it originated there and has since spread inconsistently, which is correct. See comments in series by Peter coxhead, Rhialto, and Martin of Sheffield, above; even some British readers/writers (apparently the majority of them participating in this discussion) prefer the stops (including for constructions like "Dr.", the only type for which the main British style guides actually advocate dropping the dots in the first place). Colour versus colour is completely unrelated, being a nationalistic spelling divergence introduced by Daniel Webster's dictionary and enthusiastically adopted in the early United States for anti-British political reasons, along with "theater" and other alterations. That has nothing to do with whether punctuation – a matter of sentence structure and parseability – is being dropped for reasons of expediency at the cost of the material's intelligibility to a broad audience.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:28, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Dropping the dots was advice I first noticed in a book by the (British) author who first developed "plain English", in the 70s. I do not think there's a neat trans-Atlantic divide, just like internal/external quote-final punctuation. If copy-editing a WP I'd probably correct to "i.e." and "e.g." simply because they're more easily recognisable; but I'd not object if editors wanted to keep their dotless variety consistently throughout an article. I don't like the dot after "etc" because it's more easily recognisable than "ie" and "eg". But I don't think MOS should be insisting on anything but within-article consistency in these matters. Tony (talk) 04:31, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I second User:Tony1's opinion of consistency within an article, but not across articles. One thing that will quickly annoy some editors is if a rule on this is put into the MOS that is then adopted by AWB and bots causing semi-automated/automated change to many articles. -- PBS (talk) 05:14, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose the proposal as stated. As SMcCandlish notes, even in BrE this dot dropping is not so prevalent or consistent. If there are articles that do this, with some consistency, I would not object, but I would not say push in that direction. So that's more like Tony1's position. Either way, I don't see a need for the MOS to take a position. I'd rather see us work together on what we've already got in the MOS than to add more stuff that's less likely to be respected. Dicklyon (talk) 05:55, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do sometimes wonder if all the time and effort spent trying to make MOS agreeable to every editor ought to be spent in article creation. In general readers (and remember WP:RF) want information, not rigorously standards-conforming typographical masterpieces. We should primarily be generating the world's best encyclopaedia, not an international style guide. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 10:53, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It appears some users have not noticed the most recent motion I presented: 'Updated change: 'etc' and 'etc.' are acceptable in UK articles. 'eg' or 'e.g.' and 'ie' or 'i.e.' should not be used in any articles. This means existing instances of this can be gradually removed from Wikipedia. People should avoid changing 'etc' to 'etc.' and vice versa in UK articles. --Sb2001 (talk) 00:08, 15 April 2017 (UTC)'. A consensus seems to have been reached that the MoS should be changed to something like this. --Sb2001 (talk) 18:39, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Who says there's a consensus for this? I don't see it. When similar issues have been raised before, e.g allowing different quotation styles in articles using different ENGVARs, the consensus has always been not to vary punctuation by ENGVAR. What makes this different? Or shall we start discussing punctuation in quotations yet again? Peter coxhead (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Peter coxhead: If you read the thread you will see people agree it is reasonable for both 'etc.' and 'etc' to be options for UK articles. This involves compromises from both sides of the argument. And I do think Wikipedia should allow different quotation punctuation. I am not raising it, however. I do not appreciate being told my points are not relevant/inappropriate for a discussion if other editors are going to raise issues such as quotation punctuation. We are discussing abbreviations. The last several comments support the idea of both versions of 'et cetera' being options. --Sb2001 (talk) 20:39, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sb2001: I have read the thread. The point of the reference to quotation styles, if you read what I wrote, is that this offers a key test of attitudes to allowing punctuation to vary by ENGVAR, and the consensus was firmly that we don't, as Justlettersandnumbers says below. It's not a "compromise" to allow some variation by ENGVAR; it's a concession on a key principle. If accepted it would certainly be reasonable for American editors to say that always placing periods before quotation marks regardless of logical quotation should be allowed in articles written in American English. Why would one be allowed and not the other? Peter coxhead (talk) 17:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per MHRA Style Guide, third edition; London: Modern Humanities Research Association, 2013, page 43. Also because we don't need any more rules, and we don't make punctuation rules based on ENGVAR. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 21:59, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Justlettersandnumbers: There are plenty of style guides which advise otherwise (the Guardian, the Economist, the NHS, the University of Oxford, the University of Cambridge are just some examples). I think it is wise to allow people to write both in order to avoid this sort of 'my style guide is better than yours' debate this seems to be turning into. --Sb2001 (talk) 22:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sb2001 Do I understand you correctly? It sounds like you want explicit permission to use "etc" (without the period/full stop) in articles written in British English. I think you realize by now that you haven't persuaded others to institute a new rule requiring no period/full stop in these abbreviations. I think the general feeling here is that consistency within an article is very much desirable, but there is a reluctance to put into place a new set of rules. I'm not sure whether other editors here would prefer to see these abbreviations written with periods/full stops, or whether (at least in British English articles) they would find either style (with or without periods/full stops) acceptable. Regarding your other proposal, to establish a rule or guideline saying that "i.e.", or "ie", and "e.g.", or "eg", cannot be used in Wikipedia articles, I don't think that's a good idea. I think articles that substitute "that is" every time "i.e." might be used would make for some wordy articles. For "e.g.", I think that in many cases another phrase can be used ("for example", "such as", "including"), but that an occasional "e.g." ought to be allowed.  – Corinne (talk) 03:16, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rewording to avoid Latin abbreviations is always my preference; but I don't think we need new guidelines at this time. Dicklyon (talk) 03:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I found out about this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Accessibility#Abbreviations for exempli gratia, id est, etcetera, where the screen reader angle was mentioned. As discussed above, English speech synthesisers (which speak the text sent to them by screen readers) do indeed read "eg" and "ie" as "egg" and "e", with some variations; notably the British version of eSpeakNG reads "eg" as "for example" while reading "e.g." as "e dot g". However screen reader users will just get used to whatever's thrown at them, and I don't think the use of "eg"/"ie" versus "e.g."/"i.e." is a big deal for us in the grand scheme of things. Graham87 16:44, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - the fact that it's not universal among British English and that there are plausible accessibility concerns. The possible benefits of the proposal (reader comfortability) do not outweigh the possible-to-likely drawbacks. EvergreenFir (talk) 17:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:EvergreenFir: I am interested to know why you think a less common way of writing 'et cetera' ('etc.') should be adopted over the widely used 'etc'. I would like to again point out that we would - under this change - be making Wikipedia more accessible by advising people to write 'for example' and 'that is' (or words to that effect) instead of 'eg' or 'e.g.' and 'ie' or 'i.e.'. As User:Graham87 seems to be saying, screen readers have trouble with 'eg' and 'e.g.', so it would make sense to avoid using them in my opinion. I think we should allow both 'etc' and 'etc.' to end this dispute, which seems to be going round in circles. Do any editors have a reasonable objection to the barring of 'eg' or 'e.g.' and 'ie' or 'i.e.' and permission to use 'etc' and 'etc.'? --Sb2001 (talk) 19:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, they do; see above. You are trying to be both the proposer and the closer. This is not acceptable. A change of this kind needs to be treated as a proper RfC and closed by a non-involved person. Peter coxhead (talk) 19:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Peter coxhead: You are effectively dismissing this side of the argument. The number of editors in favour of both being allowed seems about equal to those against. If both are recommended, why disallow one? Please, also, speak to me as an equal: your tone (and use of bold text) comes across as somewhat rude. I did not bring this to the talk page to cause an argument. Other editors and I find the MoS restrictive in the way it demands 'etc.' rather than 'etc'. You may not have this issue. As someone who was taught to write 'etc', I find it quite strange to have to write something I was taught is no longer common in UK English. I have backed down, and been persuaded by some editors to not use 'eg'/'e.g.' and 'ie'/'i.e.', so is it really that unreasonable for you to accept the opinions of some? I am not asking you to write 'etc' with no full stop. I am just asking for those who prefer this style to be give the option of doing so. In regards to the proposer/closer point, if this is a rule, I was not aware of this. I have never used this talk page before. I would appreciate it if you could show some understanding of this. I do think we have had an array of comments from people of many opinions (including one who writes '&c'), so am not quite sure what you mean when you ask for a 'proper RfC' - can you please explain? --Sb2001 (talk) 20:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there an exception for this sort editing. A sports season has ended so is it acceptable to say that the "season was", or keep it in the present tense: the "season is"? Similarly, wan a musical group disbands, do we keep present tense or not? Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:02, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We've thousands of sports team season articles using "was" for past seasons. Been doing this for years, just to let yas know. GoodDay (talk) 17:08, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And we have a few bots that can address it in less than a day, but the question for me is not how many articles there are that have it, it's whether it's correct or not. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:16, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Would appreciate it if you'd stop reverting at 2016-17 Vancouver Canucks season article, until issue is settled. Having one article different from the 13 other non-playoff bound 2016-17 NHL team season articles is annoying. As for bots? Don't change anything until the issue here is settled. BTW: I've contacted WP:HOCKEY, WP:BASEBALL & WP:BASKETBALL about this discussion. GoodDay (talk) 17:25, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I reach WP:3RR just after you so I won't be changing. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:04, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We also use "will be" for team 'future' season articles, during off-seasons. GoodDay (talk) 18:21, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BTW: We also have been using "was" for past league season articles & "will be" for future league season articles. Examples: 2012-13 NBA season & 2017-18 NHL season etc. GoodDay (talk) 18:29, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would consider a concluded sports season to be a past event, and appropriately referred to in the past tense. It's not like a work of art that continues to exist indefinitely.--Trystan (talk) 18:38, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Keeping articles in the present tense seems to be inconsistently applied. I easily found Juan Carlos I of Spain (who is still alive) and Netherlands Antilles (which many people might be surprised to find no longer exists) both opening with sentences in the past tense. I have a feeling that if I were to change either of those sentences, I'd find myself immediately reverted. --Acjelen (talk) 22:19, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

While it is grammatically correct to say that "Juan Carlos was King of Spain until his abdication"... using the past tense could make the reader think he is dead. So, I would agree that it is poor wording for an opening sentence. Suggest that something like "Juan Carlos is the former King of Spain, having abdicated in..." would be both grammatical and prevent that potential confusion. The Netherlands Antilles article is fine in past tense, since it no longer exists as a political entity. As for sports seasons, once the season is over they are indeed historical events... and so should be discussed in past tense. Blueboar (talk) 22:41, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually "reigned as King of Spain" is best. PS - Let's get back to the topic though - Sports team season articles. GoodDay (talk) 23:04, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would consider a sporting event that is finished to be a "past event" which the MOS says to use the past tense for. Additionally, the question was asked about a musical band that disbands. The example of the beatles from the MOS seems to answer exactly this point:"The Beatles were an English rock band that formed in Liverpool in 1960."18abruce (talk) 23:07, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Since the issue is the recent nature of the team's season being over, a better musical group example would be Black Sabbath, which disbanded last month. If you look at the revert exchange in the article's history and the archived talk section, the issue seems to be the veracity of the disbanding and reliability of sources rather than MOS issues or whether Black Sabbath still 'exists' since you can still listen to their music. --Acjelen (talk) 23:40, 10 April 2017 (UTC) Sorry, buried the lede. Article is currently "Black Sabbath were", beautifully combining both past tense and plural agreement. --Acjelen (talk) 23:50, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

the issue seems to be the veracity of the disbanding and reliability of sources rather than MOS issues or whether Black Sabbath still 'exists' since you can still listen to their music – this was not the issue. The issue with Black Sabbath was that nobody really knew if they actually disbanded or not after their last concert. As for sports articles – if the season is over then it is a past event and MoS clearly says that past tense should be used for historical events. – Sabbatino (talk) 04:36, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So a sports season is a collection of events. Understood.

And "Black Sabbath were an English rock band" while "Black Sabbath is the eponymous debut studio album". Got it. Simple enough. Thanks. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:54, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A concluded sports season is definitely a past event and should use past tense. Kaldari (talk) 17:56, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• There's no reason to do anything weird or different. If the season is over, use past tense. If it's ongoing, use present. If it's forthcoming, use future. Just like with everything else. The only place WP does anything some people think is unusual (but which nonetheless makes perfect sense) is using present tense for creative works ("Starsky and Hutch is an American television series"), except in the rare case that the work has been totally lost, as is the case with various ancient manuscripts and many early Hollywood films. This is because, aside from lost exceptions, the work has not ceased to exist, so it still is, in the present. It is usually still publicly available in some form (reprints, DVDs, etc.) or by some manner, even if just by going to the institution housing it, when it comes to obscure manuscript materials. Publishing companies/operations that have ceased are given in past tense, like sports teams/squads that have disbanded and players who have died. Pretty simple stuff.  :-)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:08, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This relates specifically to MOS:QUOTE. Should the published title of a ref be reproduced verbatim (i.e., typos and hyphens left untouched) or corrected accordingly? Example here, used in this article. Is it up to us to fix the "decison" typo? MOS:QUOTE says to do so for quotes in prose, but nothing is mentioned of ref titles, unless they are assumed to form part of quoted material. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 18:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If it is clearly just a typo, as in this case, I think it can be fixed. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree, suggest quote exactly + [sic]. Reader will need exact spelling if e.g. searching for article in a darabase. That may not apply here (where there's a link) but I think that principle of passing on bibliographic info exactly as seen in the wild should be adhered to consistently. EEng 21:49, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is the main reason I highly oppose correcting typos in ref titles. When doing a Google search to retrieve a new URL for a dead link, an artificially corrected typo may make it trickier or more time-consuming to find. No problem with fixing straight/curly quotes and those double-arrow thingies, but fixing word-based typos I absolutely would not like to see mandated as a WP rule. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 01:04, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What about capitalization? While some newspapers and web sites use all-caps titles, it's been my habit to change these to title case, as it takes less space and looks more consistent. Is this also frowned upon? Pburka (talk) 22:00, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See MOS:ALLCAPS. Martin of Sheffield (talk) 22:23, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this is the wrong talk page to discuss references; they should be discussed at WP:Citing sources. Jc3s5h (talk) 22:25, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, that's where I'd previously asked this question before. I knew I had, somewhere, but couldn't for the life of me remember where. Mac Dreamstate (talk) 22:28, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is only partially a WP:CITE matter. We generally don't change title case to sentence case or vice versa, but use the title as-given. Few people will revert you if you force them all one direction or the other, but it's a waste of editorial time (I stopped doing it years ago, and readers just DGaF about such nit-picks). We do, however, fix obnoxious ALL-CAPS titles, normalize curly quotes to straight, normalize varying emphasis styles, etc., per MoS. The original question: I agree with EEng that using [sic] is useful in running prose to identify a typo-bearing title as such, but this can't be done in citation templates (unless a parameter has been added for that). Using a template or other markup in the title parameter will break the COinS metadata output. It's permissible per MoS to just fix it if it's obviously a typo. There are cases where we don't want to do this, e.g. because it's not really a typo, as in Charles Cotton's The Compleat Gamester (an Early Modern English work, from when some spellings were different), or perhaps because the version with the typo has become well known, or because the typo is intentional on the part of the creator. The solution then is to add a note, after the {{cite ...}} but before the ending </ref>, if it seems important to say something about it. If no note is desired, the entire cite can be wrapped in a hidden sic template to prevent bots or gnomes from messing with the spelling:

{{sic |hide=y |reason=Apparent typo in the title is intentional and should not be "fixed". |1=<ref>{{Cite book |title=I Cant Spel |...}}</ref>}}

 — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  01:42, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Title as given" by whom? E.g. when I am citing a mathematics book, do I use the capitalization given by the publisher (often title case) or the capitalization given by the MathSciNet database I got the citation from (always sentence case)? And what capitalization do I use when the printed version in the book itself is all-caps? My own preference is to choose a consistent capitalization convention (I like title case for books and journals, and sentence case for journal articles) and stick to it. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Users who watch this page may be interested in this RFC: Wikipedia:Requests for comment/MOS:GENDERID for genderqueer people. —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:48, 16 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The merger proposal on {{infobox song}} and {{infobox single}} is discussed at WT:WikiProject Songs. I invite you to comment there. --George Ho (talk) 10:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In grammar, is the use of hyphens and dashes a matter of punctuation, spelling, or something else? If something else, what? Thank you.--John Cline (talk) 11:01, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Few people will disagree with you if you say that "mis-spell" is misspelled. OTOH, if you ask someone to list possible misspellings, few of them will list "mis-spell" as one of the options ... it's not the first thing that leaps to mind. You can also say that the hyphenation or punctuation is wrong, or more broadly, that it's an orthography violation. - Dank (push to talk) 20:22, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hyphens are used in spelling (eg the noun 'check-in'), whilst dashes are used in punctuation - like this - or to separate a subordinate clause (as demonstrated). --Sb2001 (talk) 20:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]