Some people mentioned The Boat Race in the discussion of the college football championship at WP:ITN/C, pointing out that it is a competition between university clubs and is primarily of interest only in the United Kingdom. Looking at all the things at WP:ITNSPORTS, it does seem to stand out as different. Everything else there seems to be either a major international competition, or the championship of a top level national professional league, or the most prestigious events in a professional sport. The Boat Race seems to be the only thing there that is neither professional nor international in nature. The Boat Race also seems to differ from the other entries in that it is a competition between two specific universities, while all the other listed events determine who is the best in the world or the best in a nation at a sport. While I do understand that it is very heavily watched in the United Kingdom, it just doesn't seem to have the same degree of importance as most of the other ITN/R sports events. I'm therefore proposing that The Boat Race be removed from ITN/R. Calathan (talk) 08:29, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm withdrawing my own support for my proposal. When I posted this, my concern was that culturally significant events in different countries be treated equally. However, on reflection, I think that the best solution isn't just to get rid of one because another was disallowed, but to allow them all. If something is important to the people in one country, we should post it, and who cares if it isn't of interest to everyone else. I really do think The Boat Race, and college football and college basketball, and anything else that is a big event in one country should be posted. Calathan (talk) 19:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose removal. This was just added in May of last year. There are no requirements that an event be professional or international in nature; we discourage the latter on the ITNC page as we post many single-country events("do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one"). I'm not aware of any professional rowing competitions that could be posted, nor any international ones aside from the Olympics, and even if there was one it doesn't get the attention of this race. Further, it does get some worldwide attention and participation; if the viewership just in the UK was spread out among several countries, I don't think we'd be having this discussion. Over 200,000 people watch it live as well, how many events can you say that about? 331dot (talk) 11:45, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

While there aren't requirements that an event be professional or international in nature, we should only be posting the most significant events. The argument that something restricted to only one country is less significant is a valid argument, and that position is regularly brought up in ITN/C discussions, suggesting that the page instructions not to make that argument don't represent an actual consensus. Also, it only gets 200,000 people watching it live because it is held in a river where anyone can walk up and see it, not in a stadium with limited seating and where you have to pay for admission. Plus, the argument that we wouldn't be having this discussion if the viewership were spread out among multiple countries is totally irrelevant, since the viewership isn't spread out among more countries. Obviously it would be more important if many countries cared about it. However, other countries don't really care about it, which is one of the main reasons why I'm saying it isn't significant enough to be ITN/CITN/R. Calathan (talk) 14:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean "ITNR" because this is the talk page for that. What is your definition of "the most significant events"? Regarding attendance, an event followed by millions shouldn't be penalized because many of those people are in a single country. As stated on the ITNC page. "Please do not complain about an event only relating to a single country, or failing to relate to one". We post many single country events; if you want a restriction against such postings, please propose one. Further, there are very few events where that many people gather to see it live, regardless of paid admission or not. "Not caring" about it is not an argument, as there are people who don't care about the Super Bowl, World Series, Olympics, and even US Presidential elections- all of which are posted. Part of the mission of both ITN and Wikipedia is to educate people about things like this. This is a significantly covered, notable cultural event. 331dot (talk) 14:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed my typo. Thanks for pointing it out. Anyway, the college football and college basketball championships have been repeatedly rejected from appearing at ITN based primarily on the argument that they are only of interest to Americans. This is despite the fact that they are watched by tens of millions of people and receive extensive news coverage extending over many weeks. I think the position that we should cover things of great interest to one country is reasonable, and I also think the position that we should only cover things of international interest is reasonable. However, of those two positions, the latter is the one that the majority seem to support (despite the page instructions saying otherwise), at least based on the college football/basketball discussions. If you feel strongly that things specific to one country should be at ITN/R, then please bring that up the next time one of these college sports discussions happens at ITN/C (which they inevitably will . . . someone seems to nominate at least one of the two of football/basketball every year). Calathan (talk) 16:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support removal. It's an amateur competition between two schools. To quote some of those who opposed the recent college football nomination "nobody outside the UK would understand why this is even remotely important," "I get that it is a massive deal for some people who follow this single country amateur sport, but that doesn't translate into being relevant to the front page of a general purpose encyclopaedia," "I have trouble believing this is serious," "one-country competitions really don't deserve to be featured here," "this British shit cannot go on the main page," "amateur sport, limited interest." Which of those arguments wouldn't apply in this case? -- Calidum 13:15, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not featuring one-country competitions would mean the upcoming Super Bowl XLIX would not be posted. We feature many single-country events. Someone believing the nomination or entry is not serious is not relevant, nor is people not understanding why something is important; that's the purpose of the article itself(to educate) and the discussion process. "British shit" doesn't even merit a response. 200,000+ people in person and millions on television is hardly "limited interest". 331dot (talk) 14:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Unless gaelic football is removed this should be kept at ITNR. Rowing is an olympic sport, and this is the only event featured here. Gaelic football is not olympic but it is featured here. Nergaal (talk) 13:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Inter-varsity rowing is not an Olympic sport, however. Formerip (talk) 15:35, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would probably support removing Gaelic football as well. While it is popular in its home country, it does seem like the entry on the list that has the least popularity and significance on a worldwide basis other than The Boat Race. Calathan (talk) 14:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Very interesting that The Rambling Man used the pro-NCAA arguments to get The Boat Race listed here in the first place, and yet he opposes listing the NCAA events. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Not really. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• You guys do realize that the only way college football and basketball are ever going to make it, there's something similar to it that's being posted, right? #bringbackhurlingtoITNR –HTD 15:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• College football and basketball get enough publicity in the United States that it is refreshing to come to Wikipedia and see something else. If we are going to feature those sports, why not other college sports and women's college sports? It's just a slippery slope and the easiest thing to do is draw the line. I would support removing some of the niche professional sports that have very small audiences and receive hardly any news coverage, but that's another discussion for another day. The Boat Race should stay because it's the highest level of competition; there isn't any higher level of this sport that I'm aware of. As for "inter-varsity rowing is not an Olympic sport", the Yale varsity team went to the Olympics and won gold in 1924 and 1956. We still cover the NBA even though basketball is an Olympic sport. I don't see the difference. Jehochman ^Talk 16:00, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • This. While there is the Olympics, the boating events are trivial elements of that and rarely get significant coverage compared to some other specific events; Boating like the Boat Race is a sport primarily limited to universities, and this seems to be the highest caliber match for it. --MASEM (t) 16:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why college football and basketball but no others? Because the NCAA championships in gridiron football and men's basketball are majorly huge deals (as evidenced by ratings, TV contracts, etc.) and the other college sports are not. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:08, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Supposedly the highest level of the sport of rowing is the Olympics. Fun fact: at the same time the Boat Race was being discussed at ITNR, the Olympic ice hockey final was also being discussed there, and it was defeated. I dunno if there are any "major" differences between varsity and Olympic rowing, but the differences between college and professional American football (and basketball) are well documented. –HTD 16:09, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fun fact - the Boat Race was discussed in April 2014, the hockey discussion was in February 2014. You may have been thinking of the 2014 NCAA Men's Division I Basketball Championship Game, which was discussed around the same time as the boat race and which was posted. Bencherlite^Talk 20:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
• Support removal Why do we need these minor events on ITN/R? Whether a minor event like this is posted should depend on the quality of the update, significance of the events that occurred that occasion, and amount of other important news stories at the time. Items on ITN/R are considered to have always satisfied the 'importance' criterion for inclusion on ITN. That does not seem to be the case here, as evidenced by this divided discussion. The next time this event occurs, feel free to nominate it under the normal process. Mamyles (talk) 16:31, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• @Mamyles: Please explain how an event watched live by over 200,000 people and watched by millions, with an extensive history, is a "minor event". 331dot (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• To be clear, I'm not necessarily against posting this to ITN. It has been posted before, and will likely be posted again. However, I don't think that this meets the criteria in ITN/R as always satisfying the importance criteria for inclusion to ITN.

As a comparison (though viewership is not a requirement for ITN or verification of importance), 15 million viewers is less than the number of viewers the college football Sugar Bowl had on January 1st. The Rose Bowl also had more viewers. I would not support a nomination of either of those results, even considering that viewership level, unless there was something extraordinary that year. They are minor events. The Boat Race more so, since it is a competition between just two schools and not even a tournament final, much less a national final. Given that there is an extensive history, Boat Race would likely be deserving of a recurring spot in On This Day. Mamyles (talk) 19:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Nonsense, I'm afraid. The event is hosted annually (as it has been on and off since 1829). OTD is not the place for recurring sporting events which have different results every year. That's what ITN is about. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The founding of the race would qualify as an OTD item, at least in my opinion. The results would be in the linked article, not necessarily in the OTD text itself. Mamyles (talk) 20:19, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. Why would a sporting event which is broadcast in 160 countries and watched by 7 million local television viewers and 250,000 live viewers be OTD? I'm afraid you're not really making sense. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Support removal using immediate pointed revenge strike by disgruntled editors I don't need this dramafest in my life. We'll go through it all again in April when the 161st Boat Race takes place, so there's no need to prolong the agony here. Those individuals who harp on about "this wasn't posted so that can't be posted" when comparing completely different items are barking up the wrong tree altogether, but what do I expect from a readership that's more than 50% American? Of course they want their minority sports represented, who wouldn't? And then we move, inevitably, onto the money. Who cares? Then the back-handed digs at "the Commonwealth". And the "just two schools rowing". It's all a little bit too much really. I opposed this playoff nonsense because the blurb was so unclear to me and presumably others as to its significance (and still is) that it shouldn't be posted. Then come the stats, ooh, 30 million watched the playoff. So what? America's a big country, it has a lot of people watching a lot of televised sport. I'll be glad to see the Boat Race removed because, as Howard The Duck has stated, this is cutting off your nose to spite your face. Sideline the "minority" sports (some of which are broadcast in 160 countries and watched by 250,000 live and 10% of the population of the country it's taking part in, if you really keep dreaming of stats) and live with the consequences. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• I can't say I blame TRM for feeling that way.331dot (talk) 18:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man, you obviously care a lot about The Boat Race (based on a quick check of your talk page, which currently mainly consists of replies about your nominations of Boat Race articles for GA status). I also can tell that you are upset by a perceived anti-British or pro-American bias. However, I too feel a strong bias when I see people rejecting college football or college basketball with words like "American Shit" or saying "of course" it shouldn't be posted (and those sort of comments come up every time they are nominated, not just this time). You mention that the boat race is watched by 10% of the British population, but seem to not care that 10% of the American population watches the college football final. You don't seem to care that college football and college basketball are major cultural institutions in the US, that they get major news coverage for many months, that people really care about them here. I understand and accept that The Boat Race is a major cultural event for British people, even though I don't understand why (the same is true for The Ashes for that matter . . . I really don't get cricket at all, but I do recognize that other people care about it). Can't you please accept that the same is true for college football and college basketball in the US, that these are big events that we really care about, even if you don't understand why we care about them. Can't you see that these events aren't so different in terms of cultural importance, and recognize that you are being hypocritical? I'm not asking for The Boat Race to be removed from ITN/R out of spite, all I'm asking for is consistency. Either being a culturally significant event in one country is enough, or it isn't, and we shouldn't be treating each country differently. Can't you please just allow my country's events to be treated the same as yours? Calathan (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't "care a lot about The Boat Race", I have an interest in increasing the coverage of it and making each article as good as I can. I recognise that most Americans will never see the significance, even though two of their own Ivy League universities try to replicate the contest every year. I recognise that it's a contest between two "schools" (as you insist on calling them), but generally the crews contain international-class rowers from around the world. This removal nomination is purely a revenge strike, it's as plain as the nose on your face, which you're now spiting as the removal of such will intractably set a precedent to disallow other "minority" sports events (which are broadcast in 160 countries). The Boat Race is not "for British people", it's a global phenomenon. College football is not a global phenomenon, but it does have serious local support in terms of viewership and money. So what? This is "In the news" not "In the Financial Times". I completely accept that a portion of American society cares about college football. But I cannot accept that it is significant enough to warrant posting on the main page of a global English language encyclopedia. This removal will, it appears, will become an unhealthy precedent demonstrating that all these kinds sports should be rejected at ITN. And for that, I'm sad. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:07, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I am sympathetic with your position on this issue, but can you see how someone reading your above post might not be able to square your position on this with your position on college football being posted? I would add that I don't think the use of the term "schools" is a sleight against the universities involved in the Race, in the US it is common to refer to a university as a "school". 331dot (talk) 19:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not really too fussed. Over the last nine or ten years, it's become obvious to me that niche items which have global interest will be overlooked by American items which have introspective interest. My vote stands, remove the BR, and reject it in April, it's not that important. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to reply that 331dot is right about "schools" being a common way to refer to universities in the US ("college" is also commonly used to refer to universities in the US). Though I can't speak for them, I would assume that the people who used the term "schools" didn't mean it as a slight. Calathan (talk) 19:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I refer to my own alma mater university as a "school" in colloquial conversation, and do not mean any offence by the term. Additionally, my support for removal of this from ITN/R is also not a slight at any particular editor, nor reactionary of any comments (I was neutral for the recent football nomination). Mamyles (talk) 19:57, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I've withdrawn my own support for my proposal above. After seeing your comments, I reflected on what I really thought about the situation, and personally I think it is fine for everything of great interest to one country to be posted. However, I still hope you realize how biased your comments are. The points you bring up in favor of The Boat Race, and the points you reject in favor of college football, aren't in any way stronger than each other. I have no idea how many countries the college football championship is broadcast in, but I'm sure its a lot. Is the game widely watched and widely talked about in most of those countries . . . well no, I bet it isn't. I'm sure the same is true for the Boat Race, where it is available lots of places, and in many of those countries rowing fans will watch it, but only in Britain is it a big event. In both cases though, that's irrelevant. The reason these events should be covered at ITN is because they are a big news story in their country (as you say, this is "In the news", after all). Can't you see that your comments aren't driven by any true differences, but by the fact that one thing is yours, and the other isn't. I understand that in many places on Wikipedia there may be a bias towards American subjects, because a lot of the contributors are American. But that is no reason to respond with bias of your own. Please, just realize that what you have been saying is total hypocrisy, and please try to accept that something you don't personally understand can still be important. Calathan (talk) 19:42, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Enough of the personal attacks, let's keep the nomination for removal open as your pointed closure statement is beyond the pale. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:54, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not trying to offend, and I'm sorry if my comments upset you. I don't think you are being intentionally biased, and I'm not accusing you of any intentional wrongdoing, but I do think you are subconsciously biased. To me, your comments are hurtful, and come off as a personal attack on me, though again I don't think you meant them to be. All I'm asking is that you please think deeply about what you are saying, and keep an open mind about what others are saying. Calathan (talk) 20:01, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I have and I've explained plenty of times. Your comments don't upset me, they simply disappoint me. What I haven't done is suggested that others have spoken with "total hypocrisy" nor have I suggested that anyone doesn't "personally understand" the issue at hand. You need to think more clearly before making such charges. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:11, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. The proposer of the idea being discussed has withdrawn their proposal; perhaps this should be closed. 331dot (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Disagree. Now we're here, let's get it sorted once and for all. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:30, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep listed per my previous comments at ITNC and ITNR. To start with, given the number of international-level rowers (including Olympic and World Championship medallists) who compete (some moving to England to study just to be able to compete in the Boat Race), to say that it is a "amateur competition between two schools" rather misses the point. It was first held in 1829 and has been held virtually every year since the 1840s. It has been televised since before World War II and has been the subject of significant competition between the BBC and ITV to broadcast it - if it was just of interest to boaties, or to Oxbridge graduates, it wouldn't be covered. Despite or perhaps because of its status, it is the most high-profile rowing race and so deservedly it is the only rowing item at ITNR. (In the UK at least, interest in rowing even at the Olympics has depended more on who's in the boat with the best chances of winning, so that in the days of Redgrave and Pinsent for example attention would follow them from the fours to the pairs and back). And while it's a rowing race between two universities rather than two countries, if any two countries, or even two other universities, can set up an annual rowing challenge that gets similar national and international coverage and interest (not just in one country or among a small group of alumni, of course), I'll support that for ITNR too. It's worth pointing out that Trenton Oldfield chose to disrupt the 2012 race for his ill-defined protest against whatever it was because he knew he would get massive publicity for doing so, rather than (say) interrupting the Oxford-Cambridge football match or even a Premier League football match. Let's avoid the sour grapes and the tit-for-tat comparisons of apples and concrete blocks. Bencherlite^Talk 20:32, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  They don't understand. Nor do they bother trying. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  So I guess my support for posting The Boat Race is chopped liver? 331dot (talk) 21:12, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Only if you believe that you are the "They" I noted. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:44, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• Admin requested. I again call for this to be closed by an uninvolved party, as the nominator has withdrawn their proposal(which I support) and TRM only seeks to take the discussion and use it as a platform to make a point. 331dot (talk) 20:33, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  No I don't. I seek to continue the discussion so we don't do it all over again in April when the woodwork dwellers come back out to whinge about "two English schools in canoes". How pathetic. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:04, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Is that why you said "Support removal using immediate pointed revenge strike by disgruntled editors"? You'd rather pull TBR from ITNR rather than permit American college football from being posted even though you actually support posting TBR. 331dot (talk) 21:10, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  The two items are conflated. This nomination is nothing more than a pointed revenge strike by someone who has no idea about the Boat Race, its history and its cultural significance, its international flavour, its global audience, etc etc, but that's evidenced by many of the less-educated commentators (e.g. it's a canoe race). I'd rather pull The Boat Race so I don't feel obliged to go over this ground again and again and again with people here who don't even do any research or reading into it. It's a pointless pursuit. And there's nothing about me "permitting" anything. You should rephrase that. And re-read, I stated clearly several times that I objected to the college football story blurb because it wasn't meaningful to anyone outside college football. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  If it makes you feel better you can substitute "see" for "permit". If people aren't doing research on this subject, I think their opinion should be weighed accordingly; but this is hardly the only issue where that happens. 331dot (talk) 21:28, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  "If it makes you feel better"? I came to expect much more from you 331dot. Ignorance is a blight on the encyclopedia that should be disallowed. We can educate as much as we possibly can, but when opposition includes describing the Boat Race as a race between "canoes" there seems little point in trying to help those deliberately inclined to ignorance. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:43, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  I apologize for giving offense; to me the two words in that context were somewhat synonymous. That's why I worded my reply that way. 331dot (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  If only the nominator had spoken up in favour of removing the listing from ITNR and had then withdrawn his suggestion, then a quick closure might be warranted. But in circumstances where others (leaving aside TRM) have supported its removal, then it makes sense to get a conclusion based on consensus rather than speed. Otherwise, as TRM says, this will just come up again in a few months. And I say this as one of those who supports the Boat Race remaining ITNR. Bencherlite^Talk 22:00, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  Thank you for giving your view; what mattered to me most was someone heretofore uninvolved making a determination. 331dot (talk) 22:18, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• (Non-administrator comment) - I've reverted the close. Unilaterally closing a discussion with this many contributors in the first couple days results in the appearance of a SUPERVOTE and doesn't appear to be in the best interest of the encyclopedia being able to achieve a WP:CONSENSUS. Feel free to add a comment that you think it should be closed or you withdraw or whatever, but it's inappropriate to dictate to others that they can't discuss the topic any more. — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 02:31, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  I closed it because the nominator withdrew, there was a request to close this before tempers flared, the removal "votes" are exceptional weak (Essentially saying "American football wasn't posted, so this should be removed"), and because it was pretty obvious no consensus to remove can come from a discussion provoked by emotion about an unrealted item. But, by all means, waste tons of time on pointless bickering about American football not being posted if you like. --ThaddeusB (talk) 05:13, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• So... has anyone made the 4 billion/400 million/100 million global audience of The Boat Race argument yet, of which 10 million is from the UK? –HTD 02:36, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Someone made a > US population one and a 7M/15M domestic/total one on ITNC. But,

No delete there's too much deletionism on ITN Sports. College football championships are obviously ITNR, the sides are roughly equal (in numbers of Wikipedians and vociferousness), therefore the Boat Race is approximately equal significance. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 02:47, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

• • I brought that up because that should be what sets up The Boat Race from the NCAA championships: "global audience" (the basketball championship could arguably claim "some global audience", but not 4 billion/400 million/100 million). The Rambling Man supplied reference for this supposed "global audience", plus the domestic audience. And the only way the numbers would stack up is if it's twice as popular in places such as China and India than in its British homeland. –HTD 03:02, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • The 4 billion was a joke by you and not a reference, right? That is just ludicrous. There aren't that many members of the ape superfamily Hominoidea in the Commonwealth. There aren't that many non-rural humans on Earth. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:52, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Looking at the May 2014 discussion, it was @GoldenRing: that suggested that the "potential audience" of 4 billion. –HTD 04:22, 15 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]