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GAN might be a list

I think that Cher filmography would probably belong in WP:FLC. Does anyone agree?--Edge3 (talk) 01:59, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it could go either way (don't know what the FL people would say). - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:01, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I dropped a note at WT:FLC. --Edge3 (talk) 02:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, I think that a filmography is essentially a list with accompanying info. Therefore, it's ineligible for GA status. It's just too bad that the article had to sit in the queue for two months, when it should have been going through the quicker FLC process. --Edge3 (talk) 02:15, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it depends on the amount of prose vs. the list (although there's no fixed number). Smallville (season 1) is an article for instance. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:26, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, and the FL people will sometimes say "too much prose, go to GA". - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:27, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm...well the ambiguity in prose vs list policies is certainly confusing.--Edge3 (talk) 02:29, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Coming from an FL reviewer's perspective, the article is leaning more towards a list than an article, as the Motion pictures section can be shortened, and besides, most of the information in that section are already in the main article. -- [[SRE.K.A.L.|L.A.K.ERS]] 02:32, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Umm. Filmography or discography are traditionally classified as list imo.—Chris! _t 02:36, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Usually filmographies are lists, although they usually don't have as much prose as this one (see Clint Eastwood filmography for a more normal example). However, I still don't think the queried filmography is an article. For example, we have Michael Jackson filmography, which has substantial prose and is still an FL. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:09, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The nomination was failed. --Edge3 (talk) 22:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beekeeping

What would it take to nominate Beekeeping for GA? Arlen22 (talk) 17:50, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The lead needs to summarise all the important points in the article, acting as a stand-alone summary of the topic. Also needs many more citations, large swathes of the text are not cited. Merge all single-sentence paragraphs into longer paragraphs. Tim Vickers (talk) 18:08, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Inactive user

User:Kathyrncelestewright has some articles in the queue for review: Les Fêtes Chinoises and Curly Top (film). However, she has no edits since 28 August, and did not conclude revisions to a third article which was reviewed in early September. Would other editors support removing these from the queue? She can always renominate them if she comes back, and I would happily assist in reviews at that time. hamiltonstone (talk) 00:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What was the third article? She just might be waiting for the reviews to begin. --Edge3 (talk) 00:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Flore et Zéphire was failed after there was no action for a while. I don't think she's just waiting for the reviews. Ottava left a message a couple of days ago asking if she was still around, and there was no reaction. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do make sure that someone posted on her talk page. Once a note's been there for a week, unanswered, then I'd say yes, remove them without prejudice. I wouldn't even record them as GA fails, actually. Jclemens (talk) 01:26, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point - i've left a specific message. hamiltonstone (talk) 02:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thumbelina might have to be failed, though, but I think we should leave that entirely up to Scott Free (who isn't very active either). --Edge3 (talk) 01:35, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Scott Free, the reviewer, has been notified of the situation.--Edge3 (talk) 03:48, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, thanks for the note - actually, there had been a good bit of work done on the article just prior to Kathryn's inactivity - although of course it would be nice to have the article submitter available for comment, I feel that it's nonetheless in good shape for an assessment - I should be able to get on it this weekend - but if anyone's else feels inclined to assess it or remove it or fail it, feel free to do so - --Scott Free (talk) 16:28, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wonderful. I think it would be great if you could complete the assessment. If there are any minor issues that need fixing, then I'd be happy to help. --Edge3 (talk) 17:19, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is one little thing - the Live action subsection in the Adaptations section could use some references - so if you have a chance, that would be a big help. --Scott Free (talk) 21:45, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can do. --Edge3 (talk) 02:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Order of reviewing articles

I'm might be playing devil's advocate here in what I'm about to say, however, I strongly feel it is something that needs to be looked into slightly.

I have noticed that there is a huge backlog in the GAN process, which is understandable, as many users are wanting to submit article for GA review over periods of time. The only thing that strikes to me as puzzling is the fact that people carrying out reviews are cherry-picking, instead of reviewing the next one in line, depending on the category they have chosen. Is there any reasons as to why this happens? If people cherry-pick, then we will end up with cases that have been waiting for months, while the ones nominated recently are getting looked into with qualms. All you have to do is take a look at the entire nomination page, and you will see throughout each category, articles part-way through a list that are under review, while others above have been ignored the chance. Surely this isn't diplomatic nor fair in justice to those waiting? I look forward to seeing everyone's opinions in this matter. Pr3st0n (talk) 08:06, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And why indeed the next in the Philosophy list, when there are much older Sports nominations? Reviewers are volunteers, not paid employees, and tend to review according to their interest in an article. The lists are not formal queues and any review is better than no review. See also the FAQ above.

I agree that long wait times are a problem: I encourage those who really want to make a difference here to keep an eye on User:VeblenBot/C/Good article nominees awaiting review, which lists nominations without a reviewer by date, independent of topic: go to the bottom of the list and review one of those! Geometry guy 08:17, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe this has been discussed before, and a problem is that we don't want to deter any more people from reviewing by adding too many limitations!

Categories are rough groupings to help us find articles to work on, but they're not narrowly defined topics, and not all articles are always comparable in those categories. The "Transport" section looks like a fairly obvious example of that; a reviewer might well look at it and think "well, I know nothing at all about American roads; I have no familiarity with the topic in question, no idea of what the articles on such topics are conventionally expected to include or look like, no chance of passing intelligent comments. On the other hand, I do know something about airlines, so I'll review #12, which is forty days younger but I can say something intelligent about".

Whilst encouraging people to work on older stuff is good, it shouldn't be done in such a way as to prevent people stepping up and doing stuff out of the nominal sequence - because the alternative is often that they won't do either, rather than do the one we would prefer. People are volunteers, and they'll do what they want to; if they're the sort of people who'll happily work on anything, they'll already be willing to work on older nominations, whilst if they're the sort of people who'll only work on topics they feel comfortable with, and are told those are unavailable, they'll just walk away and find something else to do. Shimgray | talk | 08:24, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can agree with all aspects of that - I myself am in the middle of reviewing 2 article on US military units. Although I have no background knowledge into these subject, I am using that factor as an added justification in completing a fair review. If I know nothing about these topics, makes it a lot easier IMO to carry out a thorough review. We all have our own ways to review things I suppose, which I can sympathise with, and respect with upmost gratitude. It just niggling at me that some pick and choose, while others just get on with it, and work on what ever comes next. ***nudge, nudge, wink, wink, for any barnstar issuers wanting to throw one in my direction LOL***. Keep up the good work guys, and "happy reviewing". Pr3st0n (talk) 08:39, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)I concur very much with Shimgray and Geometry Guy. This is not only relevant to GAN, but to the entire project, I think. What would happen if we made a rule that disallowed people from working on articles deemed to be "mid"- or "low"- importance before all the "top"-importance articles had been improved to good or featured status? I admit that I'm a "cherry-picker", but for me it's either that or no reviewing at all. I'm simply not comfortable with reviewing an article on any topic, and I'm sure many people feel the same way. Regards, decltype (talk) 08:45, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ditto. IMO the "broad coverage" criterion requires some knowledge of the subject area. In addition there are some types of subject in which I have no interest whatsoever. --Philcha (talk) 10:53, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Firsly, it this a serious question or just a newish reviewer angling for a Barnstar (for two reviews)?

Secondly, it is worth pointing out that not all GANs are the same, even although they supposedly meet the criteria:

I have no interest in certain categories so I don't tend to review GANs in them;
Some articles are very short and some are quite long so the amount of effort needed to review them is different, so I reserve the right to choose articles to suit my needs;
Some editors consistently submit good GAN's, so I reserve the right to show them some preference;
Some articles have been resubmitted as a result of poor GA reviews, so I reserve the right to show them some preference;
Some nominators never have the curtesy to add a thank you note to the review page, the article's talk page or the reviewer's talk page, they merely add another notch to their list of GA's on their talk page; and some do;
Some nomiators very quickly carry out improvements to "problems" highlighted during the review; and some don't;
Furthermore, I would suggest that in order to carry out an adequate review, the reviewer aught to have access to the sources (web pages, books, articles, etc). If reviewers take on articles in areas outside their experience (and I admit that I do) it can difficult to verify WP:Verify, broadness and also to check that the article has not been "lifted" in chucks from an acknowledged or unacknowledged source.

Pyrotec (talk) 12:58, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've switched to FAs. GA takes to long now, although FA has been getting longer too. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 14:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do think we should find ways to encourage reviewers who work on older nominations, especially when these are outside the reviewers' comfort zone, because of the extra effort required to check criteria such as broadness. Barnstars provide one approach (the GA Polymath Award perhaps, for reviews in multiple unrelated subject areas?) Any other ideas? Geometry guy 21:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not happy about "outside the reviewers' comfort zone", because there's a risk of reviews that are all style and no substance. Some examples:

Another paleontology and I took apart a GA passed by a non-paleontogist, and it was demoted on the basis of our comments at the Talk page, without the formality of a GAR.
I'm very comfortable with paleontolgy and zoology, and just started reviewing a mycology article (taking the magic mushrooms), but I'd be afraid of making a serious mistake at a medicine article.
There are several subjects in which I just won't invest the time to learn the territory. But without that knowledge I could be passing something that's just plain wrong.

Hence I doubt the usefulness of "Bold reviewer of the month" awards. --Philcha (talk) 22:18, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I understand your point of view, especially with regard to medicine articles. However, the major issues we are dealing with here are things like roads, military units and operations, TV episodes, sports events and seasons, music groups and albums and so on. This is out of the comfort zone in an entirely different sense. The sources are mostly online and one of the main jobs of the reviewer is to check that they are reliable and that the material in the article is supported by the material in the sources. That's tough work, and deserves to be rewarded. Geometry guy 23:27, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't mind handling the Military GAN cases. I'm not in the military myself, but know many people who are, and plus I was dating a British Royal Marine for a while, so have some basic knowledge on what to look for - and if I'm in doubt, I could always ask the "marine" ex for his opinion (good job he and I still have some form of good contact). Pr3st0n (talk) 23:34, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not necessary that you be an expert. In fact, Wikipedia was founded on the basis that anyone can edit, and we don't give preferential treatment to experts in a particular subject. Therefore, I believe that reviewers don't have to be experts as well.--Edge3 (talk) 23:46, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Plus, there are many articles that have already passed FA and GA that can be consulted to assess what needs to be in a topic to be considered "broad in its coverage" (which is significantly weaker than the "comprehensiveness" required of featured articles). --maclean (talk) 04:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:GAN bot

I've automated WP:RFC, WP:RM, WP:MFD archival, and now I would like to bring my services to WP:GAN. The discussions already take place on the various article talk pages, so why have humans update a list that a bot could do instead? @harej 21:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Great idea! Would you please explain in detail how a bot would affect the nominating and reviewing procedures? Would it affect the backlog in any way?--Edge3 (talk) 02:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hope to make the revised process as similar to the current one as possible. The biggest change I imagine is that instead of the central list being updated, the role would be decentralized with a tag on the GAN discussion similar to {{rfctag}}. Instead of the list being updated whenever there's a status change, there would be a status parameter that would display the state of the nomination on the page and on the central list (via the bot). When the discussion is over, the tag can be removed, and the bot will remove it from the central list. I don't know how much it would affect the backlog, but it would definitely make trudging through it less daunting (since you no longer have to edit a massive list). Can you link me to a closed GAN discussion that I can use as a reference? Also, out of curiosity, why are GAN discussions given separate pages? @harej 03:27, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, harej (talk · contribs), I think that more automation in the manner similar to the WP:RFC process, the way you are explaining it, would be a very helpful development. Cirt (talk) 03:30, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. Here's a better idea: why not use {{GA nominee}}, which already has parameters and is included on the talk page of every GAN? And instead of having a separate discussion page, have a section= parameter so the discussion can be directly linked to. @harej 03:47, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the info, I think the bot would really simplify the current procedures. There are plenty of closed GAN discussions. One I recently did could be found here. That review had the following statuses: on review, on hold, second opinion requested, then failed (in chronological order). Also, I think GAN discussions are given separate pages so that locating the discussion would be easier. I find it very hard to search for old GA threads among the archives, so I highly support the use of separated pages. --Edge3 (talk) 20:49, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There can also be multiple GA reviews, i.e that article was resubmited and the next GAN review is at here. Pyrotec (talk) 20:55, 25 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm done coding the first version. 451 lines and 30.1 kilobytes. This is easily the largest script I've ever written. Thank you for making WP:GAN such a simple process. ;] @harej 16:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a problem. We try our best! :) --Edge3 (talk) 16:37, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Something to bring up when we reconsider putting the GA sign on article pages

Here's an interesting fact: Of the ten largest Wikipedias after English, 5 of them not only have the GA sign on the article page, but display a Good Article on the Main page! That's right: the Spanish, Polish, Chinese, Swedish, and Russian Wikipedias all do. I'm just sayin'... Diderot's dreams (talk) 03:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have always thought there should be a way to feature some GAs on the main page as we do with FAs, DYKs etc. I would be keen to see a way of doing this. If other editors here at GAN thought it was a good idea, does anyone have a view about the next step in having that discussion? A discussion at Talk:Main Page? hamiltonstone (talk) 10:57, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would support having the green GA sign on the corner of the article page, as with FAs. bridies (talk) 11:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've always thought that having a GA sign might be arbitrary, but I would support it. Not sure about the main page bit though, what about articles that haven't been cleaned up lately? ceranthor 12:15, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(response on the "what about articles that haven't been cleaned up lately?" issue). That would be addressed through a nominations and vetting process. Just as Raul checks out FAs, and editors clear DYKs for key policy issues, we would have a vetting process for GAs prior to promotion. One idea would be to put them in through GAR, or they could go through a separate process like DYK entries. There are a few options - any of which could ensure that what goes forward is sound. hamiltonstone (talk) 13:02, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. GAs are understood to be imperfect articles. No vetting process is necessary. --Edge3 (talk) 13:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would support having the GA sign as well. As for your other point, imperfect GAs just emphasize the fact that they still have a lot of room for improvement. --Edge3 (talk) 12:28, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would certaintly support showing GA on the main page so that just like FAs and DYKs, people's hard work can be shown off and improved.--Giants 27(c|s) 12:30, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think having the GA sign in the corner would be great and would encourage people like me, who often feel an FA is out of reach, to contribute more. Spiderone 12:48, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also support a GA icon. OTOH I think a spot on the main page may be a lost cause, as IIRC more than 1 FA is being promoted per day. --Philcha (talk) 13:07, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So are you suggesting that we may have 2 FAs on the main page soon?--Edge3 (talk) 13:11, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to see the green circle in article space. Don't think we can get consensus to put GAs on the main page, though. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 16:34, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We might have to open a WP:DRV on Template:Good article. What do you guys think?--Edge3 (talk) 17:03, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we need a DRV. They would just say get consensus to use it, and you can have the template back. We probably need to put something on WP:CENT pointing to a discussion here, or on VPP or somewhere. Make sure everyone who would support it knows about it, becuase it's going to get a ton of opposes. It's been tried before, but I can't remember where. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 17:12, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes DRV is irrelevant. As for any future !vote on the issue, I would suggest a completely independent page, like an RfC. I would also suggest waiting until the end of Sweeps. The greater the time before the next !vote on this, the better the chance that editors have moved on (both literally and metaphorically) since the last one (approximately 1 year ago). A premature !vote will likely result in an unilluminating conclusion (and that is a likely outcome anyway, so don't get your hopes up). Geometry guy 23:09, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Without wishing to burst anyone's balloon, I've come to terms with the fact that it's very unlikely that there will ever be a GA sign on the article page, but that doesn't mean the issue isn't worth raising again though. I do very much agree with G-guy's comment about waiting for the end of GA Sweeps; there's no point in handing out to the inevitable opposition the stones to throw. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gallery showing cast list of cartoon series Phineas and Ferb

The main editor of Phineas and Ferb, which I'm reviewing, has just added a gallery showing the cast plus the 2 creators. Commnets on the gallery? --Philcha (talk) 20:39, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Separate biology and medicine?

The Biology and medicine section is getting pretty massive, does anyone think it might be a good idea to separate it into two, i.e. 'Biology' and 'Medicine'? (On the other hand, only a few are medicine, so this might not help with organization, but I can't think of another way to divide it). delldot ∇. 01:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's actually a medim one. I'd be more receptive to merging some of the small ones, or splitting some of the big ones. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 02:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a bit of a slowdown currently, but maybe its size serves as a hint for folks to review :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Review by consensus

Instead of having individual editors review GANs, why don't we have reviews completed by consensus, similar to the FAC and FLC processes? This would encourage more people to review articles, since they wouldn't have the burden of carefully inspecting all aspects of the article against all GA criteria. --Edge3 (talk) 16:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is a good idea, I'll grant you that. However, it would slow down things a lot. Cirt (talk) 16:04, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It may take longer to finish the reviews, but all of the reviews would begin sooner. Right now, I'm so busy that I'm willing to review one article at a time, but if we have reviews done by consensus, I would happily pick up about 5 to look through. --Edge3 (talk) 16:10, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FAC and FLC are chronically under-attended. Adding more levels of bureaucracy to GAN would, as Cirt says, further increase the backlog. –Juliancolton | ^Talk 16:07, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia as a whole already moves slowly because of the fact that everything is done by consensus. What harm will a slower GAN process do to the project?--Edge3 (talk) 16:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This has already discussed above (and is in the archive), possibly in response to poor quality reviews. Pyrotec (talk) 16:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well it is also a review of a lower-level of quality, so it makes sense to have less reviewers, then on to more reviewers for peer review, and finally (hopefully) more reviewers at WP:FAC. Cirt (talk) 16:13, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I like the proper reviews done in GAN (though not all are like that), it gives the subsequent process something "good" to work with. I find doing reviews tiring too but at least I think one can help really improve the article by making sure the basics are covered. Hekerui (talk) 16:18, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think that a group of reviewers working together is capable of making a better review than one individual person. --Edge3 (talk) 16:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are probably right, but how many articles in the last year have had more than one reviewer? I'm aware of at least four, and that is because in all four cases the nominator(s) refused to accept the verdict of the first reviewer. Realistically, multiple-reviewer reviews are not going to happen. If you read the comments above, nominators are complaining about the time it takes to get an article reviewed. Your suggestions make the problem worse: (1) there is the administrative problem of arranging multiple reviewers, (2) dilution of responsibility - no one is responsible so, no one takes responsibility. I can review about one short article per day or two/three days to do a long article; and I have several reviews going on in parallel. If I have to arrange for other reviewers to review the article and then come to a consensus; that will slow the process down. Don't forget, there are discussions above about adding the GA symbol to both the front & back of the article and re-reviewing all the existing GAs, these changes will stop the system dead. You are more than welcome to make suggestions, but you must consider the potential consequences and the inconsistencies that each change will cause. Pyrotec (talk) 16:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with your point that "multiple-reviewer reviews are not going to happen." Removing the burden of reviewing the whole article would actually encourage more people to provide comments on GANs. --Edge3 (talk) 18:53, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To throw in my two cents as an economist: the time we use to review is split in two: half the time (or whatever fraction) goes to reading and understanding the article and half the time goes to thinking and feedback. I agree that the more people who review an article, the better feedback and review we will get, but there is, excuse the technical term, a declining marginal value for each review—each new reviewer needs to spend a fair amount of time to read the article, but each new reviewer will add less and less constructive feedback because there will be an overlap between their feedback and that of the previous reviewers. In addition comes the time cost to coordinate the reviews. This may be necessary to establish and reach featured status, but it is not necessary for this amount of scrutiny to establish if an article is good or not. After all, there is in my experience little disagreement as to what is a good article, and more disagreement, or rather different solutions, to what feedback and advise to give to an author to improve the article to good status. If there is one thing this project lacks, it is reviewers time. I spend a given amount of time reviewing articles, as I think most other people do. If the total time to review an article increases (which it undoubtedly will do with a concensus approach), then the number of articles going through the system will be reduced and the backlog will increase. It is already dangerously high. Arsenikk ^(talk) 22:42, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a nice analysis Arsenikk. The GA criteria are pretty straightforward; it doesn't take a jury or an Act of Parliament to decide whether an article meets them or not. And unlike FA, we have a quick and simple reassessment process if mistakes are thought to have occurred. I'm also reminded of something that Ling.Nut said some time ago. Perhaps GA is at least about the education of editors as about raising standards per se. If so, then we need more and quicker reviews, not new bogs of ever-increasing bureaucracy. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:03, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Malleus (there's a standard clause that comes into effect here, for those who know it).

I have been consistently and firmly against any change to the one-reviewer-decides principle. It is not as reliable as the consensus model, but it is more efficient, in that extra resources only need to be involved when the one-reviewer-decides model leads to a poor or disputed decision. Multiple reviewers are welcome to comment on any GAN, but the initial reviewer decides. A consensus model would essentially mean that GA duplicates the role of FA with watered down criteria, with an instant loss of its main benefit to the encyclopedia: the one-reviewer model means that GA has more potential than any other process on Wikipedia to address the problem that over 2.5 million of our articles are crap. Geometry guy 23:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bot is ready to take over

Please see the draft at User:RFC bot/Sandbox 2. The reason why that list looks different from the one at WP:GAN is because of the discrepancies that exist between the list and the data within the {{GA nominee}} tags used on talk pages. I am good with updating the documentation and retrofitting the existing GANs unless there is something very egregiously wrong that I need to fix before I can proceed. @harej 19:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks great! We will have to revise all of the procedures when you are done, though. Shall we tell everyone to stop nominating, passing, or failing articles for the next few hours?--Edge3 (talk) 19:52, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry about any of that. When it's time to temporarily shut down GAN, I'll make it known, and once the bot has fully taken over the process, you will be able to tell. @harej 21:50, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is great work, but please do not rush to implement. Automating WP:GAN is on a different scale from RfC: WP:GAN is very active 24/7 so any automation needs to be very robust. Also, WP:GAN serves a purpose, and one of those purposes is to see at a glance which nominations are under review by which reviewers. Capturing the reviewer is a tricky one: if you can do this, then your automation may fly.

This is something I have thought about a lot, and in my opinion, any proposed automation of WP:GAN should set it up in user space (as you have done) so that it replicates WP:GAN as closely as possible, and then let it run for several months, fixing glitches on the way. Once it has several months of smooth operations, we can discuss making the transition.

I hope this doesn't sound discouraging. Believe me, I am a huge fan of automating GAN and really hope we can make it work. Geometry guy 22:19, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. I understand the magnitude of this process and I don't want to rush into things. While I will definitely be doing more testing, I don't find it necessary to test it for several months before integration unless it actually takes that long to come up with a working product. Here is how I see it. The current process places a lot of emphasis on the list, and the replacement process is based entirely on what {{GA nominee}} says. To have both processes running at the same time would increase workload without any of the benefit of an automatically-updated list. To run both while recognizing the current process and mostly ignoring the replacement process as a sideshow would mean that we would have to continually work to retrofit nominations until we decide to finally settle with one process. Yes, we must test it to make sure it works, but there is no reason to embargo a working process. @harej 23:24, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your reply. You haven't commented on capturing the reviewer in an automated list. Geometry guy 23:31, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My mistake. Would a reviewer= parameter be any problem? All it would add to the template would be |reviewer=~~~| @harej 23:40, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That would be a sensible approach, and is also why we need some time to make the transition: guidelines and templates need to be changed to accommodate the new process. Please bear in mind that many editors are not (understandably) wiki-code experts, and will not always do what we expect them to do in response to changes. It can be annoying to maintain the replacement process as a sideshow (that's my preferred approach) for an interim period (I did it with WP:Peer review, so I know from experience) but the benefit is worth the effort. I'm willing to help. Geometry guy 23:56, 27 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah! You are the one who automated WP:PR. I am impressed at your work (and was going to do that if you had not done it already). You are definitely more deliberative than I am; my approach to automating has consisted of suddenly changing things and throwing up signs everywhere. After the culture shock subsides, it works. Your approach just might be better. Let's come up with a way of weaning people onto the new listing system. @harej 00:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the PR bot is coded, operated and maintained by Carl(CBM), so it would be an overstatement to say I automated it! As for approaches, yours is often a good way to go, but in this case, culture shock would lose reviewers and add a hundred articles to the backlog! Introducing "reviewer=" into GAnominee is straightforward enough; we also need to track nominators with a "nominator=" parameter, but that is even easier, since it can be done automatically by {{subst:GAN}}. If you can get your bot to capture this information, then the auto-generated page will become a convincing avatar for the manual one and the transition will be relatively straightforward. Geometry guy 07:56, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have updated the templates to support a reviewer and nominator parameter, and I have updated all the other templates. @harej 20:53, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed. Do you want us to fill them in, or will those parameters be automatically filled in future reviews?--Edge3 (talk) 21:13, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From now on, {{subst:GAN}} will fill in the nominator automatically. The guy who decides to review it will have to put in his name in the template manually, but at least the parameter will be there. In the meantime, we should fill in the blanks manually. Really we should begin to update the documentation so that when the switch is made to the automatic list, we'll be ready. @harej 21:36, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The first person to edit the review page is usually the reviewer. Could you use that information to automatically insert the reviewer's name into the parameter?--Edge3 (talk) 22:00, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]