Archives

18 March 2006 - 15 April 2006 15 April 2006 - June 3 2006 April 2006 - Jun 2006 Jun 2006 - Aug 2006 Sept 2006 - April 2007 April 2007 - July 2007 July 2007 - September 2007 September 2007 -

This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III.

If article writers are using GA to hop to FA, should we request that they just skip GAC and go straight to FAC? The reasoning is that if you nom an article here, waiting times are three to four weeks. FAC offers a community discussion about issues with the article and it would be more helpful for them to fix them than wait for GAC. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:53, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I think there are plenty of people who are using GA simply as a peer review before FA, and that's really unacceptable right now because it devalues GA and slows down the process for those who have articles nominated that aren't headed for FA. But there's really no way we can enforce a "no stepping stone" policy in my mind, I can see it quickly devolving in to rampant assumption of bad faith on the part of those trying to weed out future FACs and creating plenty of bad blood. We might place a note on this page to try and discourage such folks, but I don't really think it'll work. Besides, at the slow times stepping stone nominations help boost our activity and provide a valuable service for article improvement. It really sucks at backlog periods though... VanTucky 22:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Right. My latest of my 3 GA's I sent to FAC purposely in order to evade the backlog, it was only after it failed that I tried here for some input. Wizardman 01:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't agree that using GAN as a stepping-stone to FA in any way devalues GA. FAN isn't as back-logged as GAN, but that's largely down to the efforts of one individual. Each one of us can make a difference to both processes, just by doing a review this week, instead of whinging about the backlog. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:36, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree strongly with giving this advice. Agree with Malleus (strongly, especially about the whinging), and also, sending a stack of extra articles to FAC will cause it to be massively backlogged. If they're sent because "GAN said so", it'll lower our rep even further. Bad idea. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 06:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Malleus and DHMO. For many articles GA is intended as a stepping stone on the way to FAC. This does not devalue it at all. On the other hand, as a matter of pragmatism, more experienced editors may be better off (in terms of time) skipping GA and going straight to FAC, preferably after a peer review. However, that is a matter for the discretion of the editors involved with the article and I'm against GAN making any requests or giving advice on this matter. Geometry guy 11:34, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I say 'turn a blind eye'. Some editors see GA as an end-point. Some editors see it as a stepping stone. Either way, GA is one of the best things about Wikipedia in that it fosters the writing of good articles...so obvious! Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 16:57, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Wassup puts it best. It improves articles, and that's a good thing. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 10:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we had something called "GA Sweeps" to get rid of the hoge backlog. Did it get stopped or something? D.M.N. (talk) 17:27, 22 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of "GA Sweeps" isn't to clear the backlog at WP:GAN. The purpose of sweeps is to review existing GA articles to see if they still meet the criteria, delisting them if necessary, or referring them to WP:GAR.

To clear the backlog, we have done review drives, which have been reasonably successful. The last such drive was in the summer of 2007. Dr. Cash (talk) 15:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I appreciate people's willingness to review articles, and I've reviewed a few myself, but are there any plans to have a similar drive in the future? Thanks, GaryColemanFan (talk) 22:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to have one real soon, because the backlog is currently the largest its ever been. Noble Story (talk) 00:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

These drives usually take place during the summer because reviewers tend to have more free time.--Yamanbaiia^{(free hugs!)} 01:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If every member of the GA project reviewed just one article in the next week, the backlog would almost be cleared. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:06, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm up for it... --Kakofonous (talk) 01:20, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've decided to do what I can with GA reviews, so I am up for this if people want to go through with it. SorryGuy  Talk  01:31, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't need any co-ordinated effort, just pick an article and review it. :-) --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 01:41, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was made to understand there were grilled cheese sandwiches here.--Yamanbaiia^{(free hugs!)} 02:08, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I wish, feeling quite peckish now. If I had some bread I'd make a grilled cheese sandwich for everyone who reviewed an article this week, but I've got no cheese. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:23, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• What might suck is the Bio wikiproject's doing another assessment drive. Good for them, but while doing so one comes across some nice articles. I already nommed one here and almost did for a second just based on what I saw while going through them all. This may mean that we will have to work harder at reviewing. (or i could just not nom them here i guess ..?) Wizardman 02:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• There's got to be a little bit of give and take. I'm a big fan of the GA process (and the FA process as well), and I do what I can with reviews in both places. You're also an experienced editor, so as well as nominating, why not also help with reviewing? --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 02:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• I could, and actually did, just review one. I would, but it's best to read an article in one sitting for a review, which due to my schedule is often tough to do. I do help out when i can though, particularly when the sports section if over 35, like it is now and has been for a while. Wizardman 02:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's always said that if editors reviewd one article a week, the backlog would be cleared. But that never happens, because there are never enough editors. So I guess a drive would be in order sometime. And they have been rather successful. I see that last summer there was at one time only 40 articles nominated. But right now I think getting the page down to about 150 would be quite an achievement. Noble Story (talk) 04:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If there aren't enough reviewers, then the drive ought to be to recruit more reviewers, not to pressure the currently active reviewers to review more articles. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 04:30, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What about asking for reviewers directly? For example, there are currently about 30 unreviewed "Sports and recreation" articles. If someone split the articles up among the different relevant projects, a note could be left of the project talk pages asking for members to review articles over the next week. WikiProject Rugby league could be assigned specific articles like Ottawa Senators, Alan Kulwicki, and English Channel (horse). Anyone from the project could review those articles over the following week. Other projects would be assigned specific articles as well. I'm assuming that there wouldn't be a 100% success rate and not all of the articles would be reviewed, but I would guess that at least half would get done. GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting idea, and perhaps worth a try. The problem though is of course that this is a volunteer project, and so I'd hazard a guess that none of the allocated articles would get reviewed. Why would anyone want to review any article? The reward for the nominators is clear, but what's the reward for the reviewers? Too often it's a bucket full of abuse, or their review is completely ignored. Hardly an encouragement to review another article. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 06:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, it's a volunteer project, but there is no harm in asking for volunteers. Admittedly, there is no reward, but many projects take pride in the work they do for Wikipedia. Finding two people from each project who are willing to say, "Why the hell not?" might not be as hard as you think. I did some counting, and there are 28 unreviewed Sports and Recreation articles. If we chose two for each of the following projects, we could at least see what gets done: hockey, basketball (cross-posted between college basketball and pro basketball), American football (again, cross-posted), baseball, football/soccer, rugby, tennis, car racing (cross-posted on the various specific projects), wrestling, boxing, running, sports, swimming, equine. I'm not an administrator or a WP:WGA member, but I'd be willing to make a few posts and see what gets done. Would it be worth it for me to bring this idea up at the WP:WGA talk page? GaryColemanFan (talk) 06:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I said, perhaps worth a try. So try it. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 06:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The backlog in Sports and recreation is now down to 11 unreviewed articles, so it looks like things are working. GaryColemanFan (talk) 05:13, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe in mentioning the "nominate one, review one" idea, we should emphasise that if you don't contribute at least a little bit, then any articles you eventually take to GAC will take a long, long time to get reviewed because of the backlog. But if you review at least one a week or something like that, the backlog will be reduced, and any future GACs, including yours, will go through faster. So you might not see any rewards now, but you will in the long run. Noble Story (talk) 14:00, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The GA Reviewer for Miguel Ángel Asturias has left - see Talk:Miguel Ángel Asturias#GA Reviewer. Anyone want to take over? Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 13:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that means they've left; no one took the responsibility from them, after all. Perhaps they just need a reminder that either it's still in their hands or they should request a second opinion with the proper template on the GAN page. Have you tried contacting them on their talk page? María (habla conmigo) 15:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Good idea about the second opinion. Obvious. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 16:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just about to review this article, only to notice that it is semi-protected after a recent bout of IP vandalism. Also, several paragraphs in the San Fransico Giants section are unreferenced. Would this qualify for me to quick-fail it? D.M.N. (talk) 13:13, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:WIAGA, "Vandalism reversion...do[es] not apply [to not being stable]". So don't quick-fail it for that. As for not having references, that's not a reason to quick-fail. Merely address it in your review, and the nominator should be able to come up with something. Noble Story (talk) 13.51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. D.M.N. (talk) 14:22, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In case you didn't see the Signpost article,I'v copied this bit. Article flagging is being tested. An open beta of article validation is in progress, in English. Registered users can grant themselves one of two statuses: "Editor", which allows a user to flag a revision as being checked for vandalism and obvious nonsense, and "Reviewer", which allows a user to flag a revision as a "good" or "featured" article. When implemented, these statuses will likely be granted manually by administrators, but for the purposes of the test, any user can make themselves a "reviewer". Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DM is out a bit so I'll ask somebody to re-evaluate "Confessions Part II" he recently put on hold. Thank you. --Efe (talk) 04:29, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another: Positive Black Soul. --Kakofonous (talk) 21:14, 27 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's OK, both are  Done. dihydrogen monoxide (H₂O) 23:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Recently 24: The Game and Battle of Gettysburg, First Day were nominated (by the same editor, kaypoh). However, both are already A-class articles. When I inguired on the talk page of 24: The Game, I was told that an article could be a GA and A-class article at the same time. Is that true?

It doesn't seem too logical to me, as an A-class article is supposed to be judged with higher standards than a GA article. Noble Story (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Stub, Start, B, GA, A, FA-Class system is a rating system run by individual WikiProjects. There is no requirement that different WikiProjects should give an article the same rating and WikiProjects have their own schemes for designating articles as A-Class: typically these schemes concentrate on the quality of the content, so articles can be A-Class without being good articles. Similarly GA-Class is a WikiProject rating which just happens to coincide most of the time with whether the article is a good article or not. Please try to discourage editors from using "GA-Class" as a synonym for good article; this will help to avoid this confusion arising. The two concepts are logically distinct, and sometimes differ in practice. Geometry guy 15:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Articles at WP:MILHIST are frequently both GAs and A-Class at the same time, but they also usually become FAs rather quickly as well. For example, here are two GAs under WP:MARITIME which are also A-Class: Benjamin Franklin Tilley and USS Siboney (ID-2999). -MBK₀₀₄ 21:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the other wikiprojects that I participate in, I usually treat A-class as sort of a GA+ rating. I think that all A-class articles should meet, at a minimum, the GA criteria, and then go above and beyond, providing additional details and fulfilling a more subject area based assessment. They should mostly be meeting the FA criteria as well, but obviously don't have to meet all of them. As such, I don't have a problem with articles being listed as GA and also assessed as A-class by one of their wikiprojects. But I do have a problem with A-class assessments on articles that do not meet the GA criteria and are not listed at WP:GA. Dr. Cash (talk) 17:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I GA nom'ed Jack the Ripper purely 'cause it was listed as A-class and there was no way it could meet GA criteria. It failed and is now more reasonably a B-Class. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 18:22, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't change WikiProject A-Class ratings to B for failed GAs. This is a matter for the WikiProject: leave a note on the WikiProject talk page. A better mental picture (although this is still a simplification, for the reasons I mentioned above) for the structure of article assessment is:

Stub - Start - B - A
               |   |
               GA- FA

For many WikiProjects, A-Class is a content decision, based on comprehensiveness: it does not cover minutiae of presentation. It is not our job at GA to tell WikiProjects how to do their job. Geometry guy 19:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely agree with that. In just the same way that it's not for a GA reviewer to re-assess an article's project allocated B-class to GA if (s)he decides to list it. That's down to how each project interprets its own GA assessment. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So which project takes precedence when there are four or five banner tags on the talk page? Seriously, other than military history and maybe film, which projects have active assessment 'departments'. Nine out of ten times, A-class is a vanity class given by a contributing editor. And, quite often that contributing editor is long gone. In the case of Jack the Ripper, it seems the active contributors agreed with the down grade. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No project "takes precedence", as Geometry Guy's little graphic was meant to demonstrate. The GA process has absolutely nothing to do with whatever any project may choose to call GA, other than having (perhaps unhelpfully) the same name. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 20:55, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Each individual WikiProject banner is the responsibility of the WikiProject which created it. Anyone can change any banner, but WikiProject assessments are reached by consensus of those interested in the article from the point of view of the WikiProject. It is completely reasonable for different WikiProjects to have different assessments for the same article (see e.g. Talk:John von Neumann, which is great as a Game theory article, not comprehensive as a mathematics article, and needing further work as a biography). Remember: WikiProject assessments are for editors, not readers; they help editors keep track of and improve article quality. Geometry guy 20:58, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Is it? It doesn't seem to of been reviewed properly to me. D.M.N. (talk) 21:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article is pretty awful: half of it is references! I suggest you delist it following the delisting guidelines: in the case of this article, criterion 3(a) (broadness) clearly fails because this biographical article only discusses the subject's sporting career. If you run into problems delisting the article, use WP:GAR. Geometry guy 21:39, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to disagree with this article being "pretty awful". I find that insulting to the work I placed into it and as being very unfair. Also, there are plenty of football GAs which do not cover aspects of the subject not related to their sporting career, with an example including the newly-promoted Michael Symes. The criteria itself states "articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic". Mattythewhite (talk) 22:04, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article you cite is possibly worse. I suspect these articles were passed because they meet WP:V. However, GA is not a citation check. WP:V is an absolute policy requirement, which all articles must meet. GA is a broad assessment in terms of the good article criteria. This may have been misunderstood in the past, and such misunderstandings may continue. Your work is great, and it is no insult to it that it does not currently meet the good article criteria. Good luck improving the article further. Geometry guy 22:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that it failed GA I find insulting, but the manner in which you described it. I mean, the article describes the whole career of Leo Fortune-West to a fairly comprehensive degree, I fail to see how it makes it "pretty awful". As you implied, it's not particularly long, but I don't believe that is a requirement of GA. Just that it "addresses the major aspects of the topic", which I believe it is successful in. This goes into further detail by stating "articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic", meaning it is not a necessity for it to go into detail on his non-sporting career. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise for my choice of words. Geometry guy 09:06, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It was not reviewed properly at all and clearly fails GA. I was tempted to just revert it, but instead have delisted and left a note about the improper review on the talk page. Collectonian (talk) 21:53, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think you should give a proper review so Mattybywhite knows what he must do to improve the article so it can be a GA next time. --Kaypoh (talk) 09:20, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Its already been delisted. I'd recommend they start with a peer review before renominating it. Collectonian (talk) 09:38, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hey guys, sorry about that review. I haven't done to many reviews yet, and I guess I need to re-read the criteria, because after a second look, I see that this article should not have passed the way I passed it. I apologize for this. iMatthew 2008 22:27, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry too much. After this baptism by fire, you will be one of GA's best reviewers, I am sure! Good luck! Geometry guy 22:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I had similar concerns about the GA review of Kenwyne Jones and put that up for GAR, but it's been passed. At least Jones' article does go into some of his background.

I have to agree with Mattythewhite and agree with some of Geometry Guy's wording. "Pretty awful" doesn't really beat around the bush. It's a very damming verdict even if you didn't quite mean to use those words. Peanut4 (talk) 10:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But still, I'm not quite sure how it fails criterion 3. It reads "addresses the major aspects of the topic", which it has done by documenting his sporting career. It also reads "articles that do not necessarily outline every part of the topic", telling that it is not necessary for it to detail his non-sporting career. Mattythewhite (talk) 11:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I'm just starting to review articles, and I see that this is not the way to do it. I've re-read the GA criteria, and I will review another article in the near future. iMatthew 2008 17:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not commenting on your reviweing, I'm just trying to find out how it exactly fails GA. Mattythewhite (talk) 18:11, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most obvious shortcomings are with respect to criteria 1a and 3a. For instance: "He again gained with the promotion with the side in 2002–03 after they won the play-offs"; "He was to be offered a new deal in April and finished the season with seven goals in 28 appearances." So far as 3a is concerned, it is difficult to argue that a biography that doesn't include any biographical detail meets the broadness requirement. I'd suggest peer review and/or a request to the League of Copyeditors as the next step for this article. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 18:47, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I stumbled across this situation and thought I would bring it up here for broader input (am also notifying the editor in question). Noble Story does GA reviews in User:Noble Story/sandbox, with just a link to the sandbox from the article talk page. When the GA review is done, the sandbox is cleared and used for the next review(s), so that someone looking for the GA review details would have to dig through the sandbox history. This defeats the purpose of having the GA review on the article talk page. Such reviews are helpful for future editors and for things like FAC.

Specific example: Stuart McCall is a GA, but on Talk:Stuart McCall there is a very minimal review and a link to the sandbox. This was blanked here diff to add the review for History of Bradford City A.F.C., which is also now gone.

I also wonder about the level of changes being asked for relative to GA criteria. While it is clear Noble Story is a careful, thorough and detailed reviewer, I think this practice of doing reviews in the sandbox has to stop. I also think the complete reviews have to be "dug up" and put in their article talk pages. Looks like there are 11 articles to date [[1]].

I also think the directions need to be made more explicit as to reviews being done in the article talk page only. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 16:46, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with everything you said. I brought this up with NS in regards to Portland Trail Blazers, but did not pursue it too hard. But I do think it should be made clear that reviews need to be made on the talk page where they are prominent and easy to find, both during and after the fact. -Pete (talk) 17:07, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I should add, that review was very thorough, and will serve as a great guide to improving the article even if the article doesn't pass. -Pete (talk) 17:09, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Pete. My own requests are the two above, Stuart McCall and History of Bradford City A.F.C. The reviews were very thorough and an enormous help in making great strides forward with the articles. I'm not sure if they'd be too long to add to the talk page. Just an after thought, would it not be possible to add a link to the old page on the Sandbox when passing or failing the GA? Peanut4 (talk) 19:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am not disputing the thoroughness or helpfulness of the reviews, but they need to be on the article talk page, then if too large they can be archived as a talk page archive so they are easily accessible. They should be one click away, not a long hunt through the sandbox history - it took me a good 5 minutes to find the final version of the Stuart McCall review, which is useless for future reference. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:06, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]