Cannabis Ruderalis

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G11s in Draft Space

I'm not sure if anything has changed or if I'm simply having more Drafts on my watchlist but I've been noticing a lot of Drafts deleted under G11. As a new page patroller I am no stranger to G11s and regularly use that tag myself. However I've now seen at least a couple occasions where there are good faith efforts at creating an article that are wiped away (or proposed to be wiped away) through G11. These articles certainly weren't ready for mainspace, but they weren't in mainspace they were in drafts and were going to have to go through AfC. Maybe they'd have been approved, maybe not, but I think something is off when these drafts are summarily deleted without any real chance to improve them. I am not in favor of saying no G11 for draft space at all but would love to see more editor caution in tagging drafts as such and admin in approving those tags. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:34, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have seen cases (rarely though) where a draft starts out as promotional PR speak because that's the only text the author has just starting out, and then the draft is improved to the point where it becomes acceptable. In general I don't like seeing a G11 tag on an draft unless the draft has been around for a while and isn't improving. But early on in the life of the draft? No, not really. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:09, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have processed a lot of AfC submissions. Many of them are so clearly G11 I tag them immediately for deletion. Why waste volunteer time rereviewing spam? Legacypac (talk) 03:48, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're definitely an experienced AfC reviewer. But I think there's a big difference between a draft that has yet to be submitted or has been submitted once and one that has been declined a couple of times. Draft space should be, in my thinking, a place where articles can be incubated and improved; it's why we don't allow most speedy delete criteria and why we let drafts sit for six months before being deleted (maybe). Summary deletion feels different there than it does in mainspace where it harms the credibility of the encyclopedia. We invite editors of declined drafts to the Teahouse for a reason - the idea that a draft would need to be fundamentally rewritten to be accepted, which is the G11 standard, doesn't strike me as troublesome or a waste of volunteer time. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 04:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am also for applying a higher G11 standard for drafts. I know some of our AfC reviewers are on an anti-spam jag and are using G11 as part of this. I fear admins are not giving due considerations to WP:ATD for these drafts. No way for me to know though because deleted stuff is in a black hole. ~Kvng (talk) 03:52, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A lot of Draft SPAM is created for the SEO benefits created by the links and mirrors. A Wikipedia link from Draft space is almost as good as from mainspace, and well meaning editors who promote keeping SPAM around in Draft are only facilitating the abuse of the site by Spammers. I'm a big advocate of promoting the less than perfect but notable pages for the big world of editors to work on, but the chances of either a disinterested or connected editor rewriting a topic that meets G11 are slim to none. Legacypac (talk) 07:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How are SEO benefits achieved in these cases? I thought draft space is not indexed by Google and others, so links from there should not turn up? If there are really SEO benefits, maybe we can find a technical solution to prevent that, thus eliminating the incentive to create such drafts. Regards SoWhy 08:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No index links are an important part of sculpting inbound link profiles for SEO. Been that way for a few years now. Legacypac (talk) 09:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Quite a lot of G11 spam in draftspace is lightly edited press releases, i.e WP:COPYVIOs; many or I'd say most are on non-notable topics anyhow; and for things that meet G11 criteria it is better to start anew. The main thing with spam is that even removing the buzzwords and making it not obviously spammy doesn't really fix the issue; it just hides it. To write a neutral article one must start with the reasonable intention of doing so with multiple independent and indepth sources. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:04, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree. Many articles started and start out without sources and with POV language because they are oftentimes created by enthusiasts and fans that want to tell the world about how great this or that is. In many cases, we wouldn't have strong, well written articles if no one had started a bad article first that someone thought worth to improve or that the creator has later returned to fix when they gained more experience. Regards SoWhy 08:22, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this is broadly true. I would normally only go for G11 in draft where there is either sockpuppetry or COI/UPE. Guy (Help!) 08:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
COI/UPE is the root of nearly all G11 drafts. Random 3rd parties don't tend to create SPAM. Legacypac (talk) 08:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Certainly, articles without sources and issues of promotional or fan POV can become good, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more talking about articles like "Bizco provides the best furniture solutions..contact us at" sort of stuff, where it obvious the goal is to spam wikipedia, and not merely an enthusiast writing in a fan perspective; for those articles there is no value in their content because it is better to start afresh, and the editor is very unlikely to be able to rewrite that into something useful (if there is any utility there - the vast majority of companies spammed are not notable). I haven't really found in my experience, or at-least I can't recall any cases of merely an enthusiast or fan creating an article that meets the G11 bar and I'm not going to tag G11 things created by a fan, but most G11able stuff in draftspace is a obviously a COI or UPE editor spamming non-notable companies or similar Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wasn’t there a consensus against COI/UPE being speediable demonstrated on this page earlier this year? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    G11 has and still does require the text to be promotional, not the intent. What Legacypac probably means is that in many cases of COI/UPE, the text screams spam as well, thus making them eligible for G11 in general. Regards SoWhy 09:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think all speedy deletion criteria (other than copyvios and G7s) should be applied in draft space with a very light touch. Certainly nothing in draft space should be tagged for G11 speedy deletion until the author has been given a chance to improve it (i.e. it's had a {{advert}} or similar on it for a month and the concerns have been explained on the talk page) unless there is evidence of bad faith (not suspicion, not absence of evidence of good faith) and . It is far, far better that we have a little bit of spam in draft space for a short while than we throw away good faith articles that start out spammy. Thryduulf (talk) 12:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've tagged several Drafts G11 just today. There is no point trying to get a spammer to rewrite their spam especially when the topic is unlikely to be notable anyway. I don't think anyone is throwing out good faith articles that start out spammy. I see plenty of G11 material just rejected and not CSD'd (on resubmission) and I personally only CSD the most clear cut cases, often after several rejections for being promotional. Legacypac (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have tagged a number of drafts for G11 when they are very obviously never going to be accepted (eg: "Tyler-Courtney Jones is a 16-year old YouTube Instagrammer. He likes Ed Sheerhan and wants to grow up to be a singer like him. His songs are going to revolutionise the singer-songwriter industry, and he is absolutely and supremely confident he will be the next big thing. Tyler-Courtney's next shows are scheduled to be the Royston Vasey Youth Club and St Cuthbert's School for Boys Christmas fair") or a seriously bad idea to exist on Wikipedia full-stop (eg: "Crazy Maisie (b. Chardonnay Aimee Chavwick, 29 September 2001) is a political activist and adult actress who has defended the right of women in the porn industry. She has appeared in [big list of wholly inappropriate and NSFW titles]. She signed an exclusive deal with the Sunday Sport so she could pose nude on her 16th birthday" - with no sources outside two tabloid newspapers) ... anyway, you get the idea. These sort of instances are rare. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 13:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've also noticed on quite a few occasions that spammers/UPEs were using draft space to duck autoconfirmed. They would create the article in ten edits, wait four days, and then promptly either copy and paste or move it to mainspace. Draft space is not for the storage of inappropriate material, including blatant ads. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Seraphimblade, Can they play the same game in User space? ~Kvng (talk) 19:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes Legacypac (talk) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Kvng, yes, and I've seen that done too. Fortunately, at least in the cases I saw, a patroller caught on when it got moved to mainspace and tagged it, but still better that it didn't happen at all. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are lots of ways a spammer can go to get auto or extended confirmed. Having a non-deleted record of their edits does help provide context when investigating someone for the non-admin among us. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 00:58, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Incubation of spam does not seem to be a compelling reason to use G11 in Draft space. What Legacypac said earlier about the noindex SEO loophole is the only strong argument I've seen here. Is it possible to work with Google to close that loophole in Draft space? Arguments about keeping Draft space tidy don't hold water for me because of G13. AfC has recently implemented a reject process which can kill zombie drafts. ~Kvng (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The last handful of drafts I tagged as G11 were Draft:Hannah Sneddon, Draft:Kimberly Minatti, Draft:Connor Murray and Draft:Maggie Claydon - all of which were deleted by other administrators. And as discussed on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red, I'm currently doing a review of biographies of women to see if any declined drafts can be improved and expanded to the point of acceptance. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do delete drafts under G11 but I try to apply a more lenient standard than I would in mainspace. I'd be happy with amending the policy to say something along those lines. Hut 8.5 21:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I use this also, and in fact I urge that it be used a little more. But as I understand it , the standard for promotionalism in Draft this has always been more permissive. Permissive as it may be, still some drafts are going to be complete advertisements, & suitable for deletion as G11. DGG ( talk ) 05:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Test case

I just started reviewing draft articles as part of AfC, and here are a couple test cases:

The first one is written by a SPA with two edits total; in the queue for 7 weeks; non-notable company & very promotional. Would you guys tag is for G11/A7? The advantage of tagging vs declining would be to take the draft out of the queue so that another AfC reviewer can move onto something else. The second draft is pretty much the same situation. None would survive AfD if moved to main space. I would appreciate feedback on these two items. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • HOLLA Group may well be notable. Look at the range of highly credible media coverage and the scale of the downloads they have had. I might approve it with a little more checking.
  • AIPES is an industry association with close ties to the EU and some sort of oversight or advisory role in the EU. Not really a commercial promotion situation, though associations do need to promote themselves to some extent. I'd want to see some independant coverage on them and a trim on the organization details before approving the page. It has promise. I would not tag either G11 - there are tons of better candidates for G11 in Draft. Legacypac (talk) 02:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with K.e.coffman that HOLLA is not notable given lack of articles about it rather than product and my support of WP:INHERITORG as part of WP:NCORP. I would G11 in mainspace and decline in draft.
    I would not tag AIPES as G11 in either draft or mainspace and can find indicators of notability without too much trouble. If I found in mainsapce I would take a weed wacker to much of the article as not encyclopedic but depending on what a deeper investigation of notability uncovered either mark it as reviewed (or reviewed with a notability tag if I thought it a close call) or tag it with notability and leave it unreviewed. It's very unlikely I would nominate for AfD. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are preferred WP:ATDs for both of these. The idea that not deleting these clogs the AfC pipeline assumes that when declined, these will be be promptly resubmitted without substantial improvement. Sometimes that happens. Mostly the author either abandons or makes some improvements and not usually immediately. If resubmitted, it is not too much work for subsequent reviewers to look at the diffs and determine whether to quickly reject again or have a deeper look. This is not clogging, this is what we do at AfC, help authors improve their drafts. ~Kvng (talk) 01:24, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Neither are hopeless. HOLLA offers the choice of writing the article about the company or the product. A more knowledgable promotional editor would in fact have done it on the product, because in article space software is not susceptible to A7. It would be fairly easy to turn the present article into an article on the product, and the worst promotionalism could be removed. whether it will ever end up an acceptable article depends upon someone who knows and cares working on it. For now, it should get declined. the article on the organization is like many other similar ones: they are very hard to find sources for that pass NCORP, and they are hard to write non-promotionally without being directory entries. Sometimes they are kept at AfD nonetheless if the organization is sufficiently important. It should be declined, with a request for references and to tone down some of the claims of importance. G11 is for worse than these two--there enough of them to make it worthwhile to look at the new submissions, now that it is so easy to do so, and get the very worst out of the pipeline as soon as possible. In terms of the spammers, it can have a good effect to reject them as early as possible. DGG ( talk ) 05:27, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think either of those qualifies for speedy deletion in draft space. While both have promotional wording it's not bad enough to avoid giving the author the benefit of the doubt in draft space. The second one is getting very close to the point where I'd be prepared to delete it in mainspace under G11 though, there isn't much text in it which isn't promotionally worded. This doesn't mean they should be accepted or moved to mainspace though. Hut 8.5 10:14, 14 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There seems to be consensus here that these are not great G11 candidates. I hear from other AfC reviewers that their G11 proposals rarely get kicked back by administrators. So, I'm interested to hear what our CSD administrators would have done if either of these had been tagged for G11. ~Kvng (talk) 14:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Weird Question About Questioning G11 Tags on Drafts

While we are on the subject of tagging drafts as G11, which I in general support, I have a question. Occasionally, in reviewing AFC, I see a draft that has been tagged as G11, but is still pending AFC review, and, on my review, I disagree with the G11, but think that the draft is not suitable for article space and may or may not ever be ready for article space. I decline the draft, for notability reasons, and either as 'adv' or as 'npov'. So far, so good. But I disagree with the G11. Sometimes I have contested the G11, but have left the G11 tag on the draft, and it usually then goes away, and without a comment that the challenge was denied. Either the reviewing admin doesn't read the talk page, or the reviewing admin has lower standards of G11 than I do. So, in the future, should I continue to contest the speedy deletion using the button for the purpose (and wonder whether the statement is actually read), or should I actually pull the G11 tag? I am very reluctant to pull a CSD tag that was applied in good faith by another reviewer. I think that if a reviewer thinks that a page should be speedy-reviewed, I should let an admin speedy-review the page. But I now don't know if this means that the admin will actually read the talk page challenge, in which case I should challenge on the talk page, or if the admin only looks at the draft page and the tag itself.

So: Should I continue to question what I think are unduly harsh G11s, or should I pull them?

Robert McClenon (talk) 02:07, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just reviewed language around this today as I had not contested a speedy deletion claim in draft space before. The clearest statement of policy I found came from this very page: "The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag from it. Only an editor who is not the creator of a page may do so." (formating in the original). As I was not the creator of the page I felt I was in the clear to remove the tag and so I did. Best, Barkeep49 (talk) 02:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Admin will need to also delete the talkpage, so hopefully they read it. I'm in the habit of G11ing spam without declining the page first. It seems more direct/less encouraging. Legacypac (talk) 02:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Robert, if you believe the draft does not rise to the level of G11 then you should remove the speedy deletion tag from it. ~ GB fan 10:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you believe that any page tagged for any speedy deletion criteria does noes not meet the requirements of that criteria then you should always (unless you are the author of the page) remove the tag. This applies regardless of namespace or criteria. Thryduulf (talk) 10:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If you do remove a speedy tag but any other speedy tag applies you should retag it. Legacypac (talk) 06:01, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy deletion for circular redirect (WP:SELFRED)

Should this kind or redirect be given its own criteria (example)? A user created some of them only to make the link blue on 2014 Asian Para Games, main article. Hddty. (talk) 07:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No. These are not speedy-worthy redirects. The links can be removed from the main article but these kinds of articles ("SPORT at EVENT") follow an established pattern and the creating editor probably just wanted to emulate this. Plus, those are redirects with potential, i.e. someone might want to create those sub-articles later. Regards SoWhy 08:11, 15 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I believe these should be deleted in order to make the link red (to encourage article creation), but that is a matter for WP:RFD, not for speedy criteria. —Kusma (t·c) 12:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2018

Ttgg66 (talk) 20:27, 24 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Extended content

Use common sense "WP:COMMON" redirects here. For other uses, see WP:COMMON (disambiguation). Shortcuts WP:UCS WP:COMMON WP:SENSE WP:COMMONSENSE Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers. Being able to articulate "common sense" reasons why a change helps the encyclopedia is good, and editors should not ignore those reasons because they don't include a bunch of policy shortcuts. The principle of the rules—to make Wikipedia and its sister projects thrive—is more important than the letter. Editors must use their best judgment.

Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy.


There is no common sense Shortcut WP:NOCOMMON Good sense is of all things in the world the most equally distributed, for everybody thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those most difficult to please in all other matters never desire more of it than they already possess.

— René Descartes[10] When advancing a position or justifying an action, base your argument on existing agreements, community foundation issues, and the interests of the encyclopedia, not your own common sense. Exhorting another editor to "just use common sense" is likely to be taken as insulting, for good reasons. If in a particular case you feel that literally following a rule harms the encyclopedia, or that doing something which the rules technically allow degrades it, then instead of telling someone who disagrees to use common sense, just focus on explaining why ignoring the rules will improve Wikipedia in that instance.

Be careful about citing this principle too aggressively. While it's quite acceptable to explain your own actions by saying, "it seemed like common sense to me", you should be careful not to imply that other editors are lacking in common sense, which may be seen as uncivil. Wikipedians come from diverse ethnic, religious, political, cultural and ideological backgrounds and have vastly different perceptions. Other editors are likely to ascribe very different meanings and values to words and concepts than you, so try to state your arguments as fully as possible. Citing concrete policies and guidelines is likely to be more effective than simply citing "common sense" and leaving it at that.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2018

Under the fourth paragraph in the "Introduction to criteria" section, change "You can copy and paste such warnings to the talk pages of the creators and major contributors, choose from others listed at Category:CSD warning templates, or place the unified warning template, {{subst:CSD-warn|csd|Page name}}, which allows you to tailor your warning under any particular criterion by replacing csd with the associated criterion abbreviation (e.g. g4, a7)." to "You can copy and paste such warnings to the talk pages of the creators and major contributors or choose from others listed at Category:CSD warning templates."

I think this change is a good idea because I noticed the CSD-warn template has been deleted as an "unused template." Therefore, it should not be mentioned here anymore. 24.5.8.227 (talk) 00:43, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This request seems in good faith, but I'm bothered that a substable template was speedy-deleted because it is not in-use. Does anyone watching this page wish to dispute that deletion either with RHaworth or at WP:DRV? --Izno (talk) 00:57, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Courtesy Ping: @RHaworth:. Tazerdadog (talk) 05:30, 28 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: the template has been restored. feminist (talk) 18:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to merge db-blankdraft into G13

Now that pretty much all drafts are under the purview of AfC, it seems unnecessary to have {{db-blankdraft}} separated out into its own category with different deletion criteria from what we're using on draftspace drafts. I think it would be better if we eliminated {{db-blankdraft}} and then add a new criteria under G13 allowing any draft, userspace or draftspace, containing only default placeholder text to be deleted after six months of no edits. That would bring it in line with how AfC drafts are currently being handled. --Nathan2055talk - contribs 07:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • What would be the benefit? When blank or near blank Draft space pages come up unedited 6 months we G13 them anyway. In userspace we use "blank draft" and in Draft space G2 test edit to delete blank submissions. Perhaps we should extend Blank Draft over Draft space in Twinkle so we can more accurately tag the blank pages. Legacypac (talk) 08:00, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @Legacypac: Right now, db-blankdraft requires a full year without any edits from the page creator, while G13 only requires six months without edits to the page. The only policy difference I'm proposing is changing the db-blankdraft requirements to the same "six months without page edits" we're using with G13 and extending it over draftspace as well. Nathan2055talk - contribs 08:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

For reference, here's what I'm proposing as a rewritten G13:

This applies to any pages in the draft namespace, any pages in userspace with the {{AFC submission}} template that are not currently pending review, and any drafts in either namespace with no content except the placeholder text generated by the article wizard that have not been edited (excluding bot edits) in over six months. Redirects are excluded from G13 deletion. Drafts deleted in this manner may be restored upon request by following the procedure at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13.

All it really is is consolidating and slightly generalizing existing deletion policies to make it easier to eliminate pure, unnecessary trash. Nathan2055talk - contribs 08:14, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support totally logical. So we would depreciate the G6 blank draft criteria then. Legacypac (talk) 08:27, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever "db-blankdraft" is, it's not G6. (Except for the folks who consider G6 to be "anything I can delete without anyone except maybe some random influenceless newbie raising a fuss" or "any new speedy deletion criterion I can sneak in without gaining consensus for a new speedy deletion criterion".) I also agree that this is better than mistagging such pages as test edits. —Cryptic 12:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • On a bit more reflection, I'm more in favor of generalizing A3 to apply to most non-talk namespaces. We'd have to identify a few classes of pages to exclude - categories, sandboxes, and galleries of (free) images in userspace spring to mind. I still support this proposal, as written, as a second choice. —Cryptic 13:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Also needing to be excluded would be redirects and soft redirects, files and file description pages (especially for files hosted at Commons), templates (especially ones that don't display anything much/are just a framework + a transcluded documentation page), user and user talk pages. I don't think this would be an improvement. Thryduulf (talk) 15:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. G6 is by far the worst CSD criterion we have for misuse per Cryptic and anything that moves us a step closer to actually make it meet the standards required of new criteria is a good thing. Moving one aspect of it to a different criteria where it fits better is an example of such a step. Thryduulf (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - This is a clear improvement over the status quo. Tazerdadog (talk) 17:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per Thryduulf. Word for word. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 00:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Makes sense, less confusing funplussmart (talk) 15:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support logical. Cabayi (talk) 16:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Q Would this mean blank drafts would wait 6 months before being deleted? I assume I'm missing something... ——SerialNumber54129 16:03, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes. In draftspace and for userspace drafts with AFC templates, that's no different from the status quo. For userspace drafts without AFC templates, this proposal shortens it from sitting for a year (or longer, if the author edits other pages; or shorter, if you can con an admin into deleting it immediately). —Cryptic 16:14, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(Ec) :I am in favor of reducing the wait from one year after the editor has been active" (a silly long time) to "6 months after the userspace blank draft was created." For Draft space blank submissions to AfC I see no reason to retain these test edits for more than a few minutes. The deleted page can always be easily recreated but almost never are. I CSD hundreds of blank pages submitted to AfC every few months to reduce the G13 burden and they never come back. Legacypac (talk) 16:20, 3 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects in the File: namespace G6 → R4

Criterion G6 is overloaded with many different things all lumped together as "uncontroversial maintenance" and is the most frequently abused of all criteria. It would never be approved if proposed as is today. The best way to solve this, in my opinion, is to unbundle the various different reasons into separate criteria that are individually objective. I'm not proposing to do this all at once, but to work on it step-by-step so that objections to one aspect don't derail the whole thing.

One aspect of G6 stands out as being a particularly poor fit with the rest: "Deleting redirects in the "File:" namespace with the same name as a file or redirect at Commons, provided the redirect on Wikipedia has no file links (unless the links are obviously intended for the file or redirect at Commons)." Accordingly I propose to move this criterion, without any changes, from G6 to a new R4 for these reasons:

  • It deals only with redirects, and is thus where someone will look for it
  • The general footer to the R criteria (don't speedy delete redirects with significant history, use RfD for redirects that don't meet the criteria) apply to these redirects equally with others
  • It contains requirements that are significantly different to other things deleted using G6
  • This isn't really "maintenance" in the same sense as other aspects of G6 (e.g. pages created in error/in the wrong place, etc)
  • Deletion summaries will become more useful.

This does not change what can be speedy deleted, just under which criterion is gets speedy deleted. Thryduulf (talk) 12:43, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support - This appears to be a clean improvement. How often are redirects deleted under this particular provision of G6? Tazerdadog (talk) 15:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, but we see several that possibly could be come through RfD. Thryduulf (talk) 17:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just a bit of history here: Back in 2015, there was (or is) a category that listed all of the pages on Wikipedia in the "File:" namespace that had the same name as a page on Wikimedia Commons; the category contained a few hundred or thousand pages. After consensus was established around that time for creating a WP:CSD criterion for deleting such pages that are redirects, I created {{Db-redircom}}. Afterwards, that category was essentially emptied by a handful of editors using {{Db-redircom}}. However, as of present day, I don’t think pages in the "File:" namespace on Wikipedia with the same name as a page on Wikimedia Commons get created that often ... most likely as a result of the 2015 clearing of the aforementioned backlogged category. Steel1943 (talk) 15:44, 6 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Support not an area I work but this appears more logical Legacypac (talk) 20:30, 5 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think that is the point - to be in the Redirects section it has to be split from G6 and given an R designation. I don't know how often this is used. There was mention of a category tracking these cases. Does that still exist? Do we track how many times each CSD is used? Legacypac (talk) 22:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal/RfC - Extend WP:U5 to the draftspace

I am going to propose that WP:U5 gets extended to the draftspace. This is because the draftspace is being abused in a way that there are so many drafts being found daily which are basically WP:NOTWEBHOST. It is mainly point 5 of WP:NOTWEBHOST which I am seeing in loads of drafts. Rule 5 of WP:NOTWEBHOST is "Content for projects unrelated to Wikipedia. Do not store material unrelated to Wikipedia, including in userspace." and I am seeing that new users are using the draftspace in a way so that WP:U5 can be escaped because WP:U5 does not apply to the draftspace at the moment. If this is implemented, there will be less drafts coming to WP:MfD daily that could actually do with being speedily deleted per WP:U5.

My new proposed wording for WP:U5 is:

Pages in userspace or draftspace consisting of writings, information, discussions, and/or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals, where the owner has made few or no edits outside of user pages and drafts, with the exception of plausible drafts and pages adhering to Wikipedia:User pages#What may I have in my user pages?.

Pkbwcgs (talk) 17:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support I also find these Drafts at AfC and otherwise regularly. I'm not sure that new accounts are researching our WP:NOTAWEBHOST policies and choosing Draft space over userspace to avoid U5 but we do channel new users toward Draftspace and a certian portion of these users post U5 type material. We need the ability to CSD this junk without wasting time at MFD even more in Draft then userspace because it often is submitted to AfC, and sometimes multiple times. Legacypac (talk) 17:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment U numbers only apply to userspace. I suggest deprecating U5 and replacing it with a G number, perhaps G15, worded to include userspace and draftspace as proposed. Purely to avoid confusion. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 17:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Need examples - This proposal is based on the idea that MfD is being bogged down by drafts that could be speedied under U5 if it applied to drafts. To support this, we need to see examples a number of recent drafts that would be speedied under the current proposal but cannot be under any existing criteria. @Pkbwcgs: can you give some examples of these "loads of drafts"? A2soup (talk) 17:58, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I have nominated a few of these drafts myself. Deprecate U5 and replace it with G15 as per Frayae. CoolSkittle (talk) 18:15, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Commment indeed G15. Most of this U5 stuff can be speedied out of Article space on some other A? Criteria but Wikipedia, Template and other spaces can be used for webhosting too. The main issue is Draft space though because we channel new accts there. Legacypac (talk) 18:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I suspect this will be used to delete drafts which are just very bad, instead of just those which are NOTWEBHOST violations. Some of the examples cited above are original essays or violations of WP:NOT#HOWTO. In other words they are attempts to write Wikipedia articles by people who just don't know how Wikipedia works. That doesn't make them WP:NOT#WEBHOST violations, unless they've been hanging around for long enough (in which case G13 would apply). Hut 8.5 18:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Solution in search of a problem. MFD does not seem overrun by such drafts with the examples cited having been created weeks apart. Also, what Hut 8.5 said, the potential for abuse seems far too high because new users might very well write bad drafts that get better later. I also fail to see why G13 can't handle them. Where is the pressing need to remove them asap? Regards SoWhy 18:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
SoWhy have you participated in more than 25 MfDs yet? Why are you commenting on an area you have little experience with?
Hut - Any CSD can be abused, all we are talking about is location of the unsuitable material. If it is U5 in userspace why should it be ok in Draftspace which is a more collabertive environment. Legacypac (talk) 19:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Anyone can see that there are not that many MFDs. One does not have to participate in them to do so. SoWhy 19:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, any CSD can be abused, but if a CSD is particularly prone to abuse than that's a reason not to have it. I'm not a particular fan of U5 in userspace, to be honest, but in draft space I think there's a higher chance that the author was at least trying to write an article. Hut 8.5 20:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hut 8.5: Is a WP:NOTWEBHOST violation okay in the draftspace? Why do we have WP:U5 in the userspace but not in the draftspace? The draftspace is easily abused for WP:NOTWEBHOST. I have a question. If I see a personal profile of a user in the draftspace then what should I do? We can't leave these sorts of stuff in the draftspace. Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:43, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You can get inappropriate material in draft space deleted at WP:MFD if it does not qualify for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion criteria are only good for narrow cases where people agree that pages meeting the criterion should be deleted. This suggestion shows a strong likelihood that it will be used to delete content which doesn't actually fall foul of WP:NOTWEBHOST, which makes it a bad idea. NOTWEBHOST doesn't apply to attempts to write encyclopedia articles, at least not unless abandoned, and even in this discussion there are suggestions that this criterion will be used to delete pages of this type. Hut 8.5 21:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Hut 8.5: Thanks for your reply. Yes it is clear that NOTWEBHOST doesn't apply for attempts to write an article. That is certain. However, WP:MFD is becoming flooded when taking inappropriate material there and most of it is WP:NOTWEBHOST stuff which can be eliminated by extending WP:U5 to the draftspace. Pkbwcgs (talk) 21:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's being "flooded" with this stuff at all. There are plenty of people trying to get drafts deleted for being essays, how-to guides, dictionary definitions, etc but none of those equate to NOTWEBHOST. So either the criterion will be useless for those pages or it will be used to bring a criterion of "inappropriate draft" in through the back door. The first option makes it useless and the second one would be actively harmful. Bear in mind that drafts will be deleted after six months unless someone is working on them anyway, there's no particular need to bring them to MfD in the first place most of the time. Hut 8.5 21:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion&oldid=868549832

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