I have more than once recently seen a draft or article page deleted as G6 because it contained unnecessary personal information about a minor. This isn't really housekeeping or technical. It was a situation where an administrator chose to ignore the rules to find a reason to do something that needed doing. I submit that we need a criterion G14, which is pages containing personal information about minors for whom there is no credible claim of significance. I am willing to see some tweaking of the wording, but we really need a new criterion, because it clearly isn't G6, but it clearly has to be done. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:29, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the above, and will comment further, but I still think that minors really are a case that requires a criterion, because G6 really is not applicable, and one can almost hear the chalk squeaking on the slate. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:31, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Minors absolutely do not need a criterion, and should not really be speedied. See The OS FAQ for the proper procedures. Nominating something for speedy deletion increases the number of eyes who will be seeing the page - trim it down if necessary, contact oversight/an oversighter, and let us deal with it. Primefac (talk) 12:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As Primefac said, this is a textbook example of content that should be WP:OVERSIGHTed. If there's no CCS, then just tag it with A7 (or some other criteria) if the oversighter keeps the article up. Iffy★Chat -- 12:15, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do we need to include some bit of text on the page as to when to use oversight instead of speedy deletion? Seems like some people might be unclear on this. Oiyarbepsy (talk) 12:59, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any problem with an admin using G6 in this situation as long as Oversight is notified. This would be similar to the provision in Revision deletion about revision deletion prior to oversight. ~ GB fan 13:19, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, A7 will apply to such articles anyway (or U5 if it's a userpage), so admins seeing this on patrol can delete it (G6 is fine if something else really doesn't fit). The problem with having a criterion, as Primefac points out, is that this will lead to people tagging the page, thus increasing the number of people seeing it. Non-admins finding such pages should remove the personal information and contact oversight immediately. They usually react quickly anyway. Regards SoWhy 13:34, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Per the above, after removal our chief goal is to not draw attention to this sort of thing; a speedy category would be a very easy way to find material that nobody should see. This is a case where the more opaque, the better; having a category would be counterproductive at best. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Not needed - an admin finding revisions containing personal information about a minor should revdelete the revisions (WP:RD4). If revdeleting this info leaves no visible revisions, this already falls under WP:G10 or WP:G6. As SoWhy said it's recommended in the revision deletion guideline to avoid revealing information about edits requiring this treatment, which is possibly why you see G6 being used (it's a catch-all for uncontroversial deletions). Creating a new criterion works against that guidance. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 13:45, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

O hell no! Such privacy violations need to disappear as quickly and quietly as possible. Planting any kind of flag designed to attract attention on such a page is absolutely the stone-cold least desirable thing to do to such a page. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:34, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are some entities out there that are actively patrolling Category:Candidates for speedy deletion and are automatically copying down the contents of nominated articles before they are deleted. Sometimes, they even get posted to an external website. As others have mentioned, when removing personal information in general, we should take care to do it discreetly, and since "non-public personal information" in general is already a criterion for oversight, it would be redundant as a criterion for speedy deletion. Mz7 (talk) 19:16, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is it worth explicitly noting that any page where all versions of the page would be subject to WP:REVDEL can be deleted G6? power~enwiki (π, ν) 20:21, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think G12 covers RD1, G10 covers RD2, and G3 covers RD3. I would say RD4 and RD5 would be better off as WP:IAR-type deletions rather than something explicitly enumerated. Mz7 (talk) 20:51, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd even go so far as to say it's not even really WP:IAR since proper use of RD (or OS) in these cases is following the rules to a T. Perhaps it is in the case of deleting the page rather than revdeling, but even so, it's more of a non-CSD deletion than an IAR-deletion. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 22:32, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Recently, I came across an editor (no names) who had added a phone number, email address and their date of birth (which was not earlier than 2002) to several talk pages, one of which did not previously exist. I reverted all these edits (except the page creation) and applied WP:REVDEL (except to the page creation) and then sent the lot to Special:EmailUser/Oversight per WP:OVERSIGHT. When doing the job, they blanked the page that did not previously exist before suppressing the edit that created the page. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:56, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A seperate criterion is a terrible idea. The last thing we should do is wave a big flag pointing out material that needs to be suppressed. Use whatever existing criterion seems best, use revdel, contact the oversight team. This is how we’ve been doing it for some time and I don’t see a problem with it. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps some guidance in §Non-criteria along the lines of Wikipedia:Revision deletion#Hiding oversightable material prior to Oversight - i.e., admins shouldn't use a "Personal info on a nine-year-old" delete log, non-admins shouldn't tag for speedy deletion at all, and both should mail oversight instead of just walking away afterward, thinking they made things better instead of worse. —Cryptic 00:17, 14 March 2018(UTC)

I'm working with drafts a lot, so maybe it's different there but when I find oversightable material it is usually in a page that contains zero useful content. Removing a birthday does not solve the overall problem the page should be gone. Legacypac (talk) 00:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Remove the information with no edit summary or an edit summary of “x” if the whole page needs deleted I’ll either unilaterally G10 or A7 (both are often applicable) or failing anything else, G6, and then contact oversight. The best thing for non-admins to do is remove what is possible discreetly and contact oversight. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:11, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Blank. Suppress. Delete like normal. No specific CSD needed here. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 23:50, 23 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I mentioned an idea very similar to this (specifically for drafts) in a recent AN kerfuffle, and the consensus appeared to be that the existing guidelines are sufficient. I do feel that, if an expansion is necessary, it should be phrased as allowing A7 deletions in other namespaces (specifically draft space). power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:13, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a pre-proposal; I won't support or propose this formally until ACTRIAL is permanent.

I think there's a reasonable argument that A7/A9 (the two somewhat notability-based deletion reasons) should be limited to new articles. Now that there is a reasonable amount of review and control on newly-created articles through NPP and ACTRIAL, having an article that was not proposed for deletion for a significant period of time (something between a month and a year) is enough of an indicator of notability/importance/significance that something with more review than a CSD should be used. Any thoughts? power~enwiki (π, ν) 02:18, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirects get turned into NN articles all the time. How would you handle a 5 year old redirect that might have been an article at some point (or not) turned into an article? Legacypac (talk) 03:06, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I would support this, but if it is considered, the time should be longer than a month. NPP often has a backlog of longer than a month. Natureium (talk) 03:17, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ideally, an old redirect recently converted to an article would be always recognised as a recently created article. SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:45, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In general, a redirect turned into a non-notable article should be restored as a redirect, not deleted outright. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, that’s right power. Sometimes I muse, all old mainspace redirects should be soft-protected. It is more tedious dealing with bad new articles created on top of them. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:35, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting idea. I doubt it would pass, but it is in the spirit of ACPERM. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:02, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would not support this at all. An A7 is an A7 regardless of the age of the article. We can make no assumptions about the quality or appropriateness of an article based on its age. Jbh ^Talk 03:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If anything we should expand these criteria to cover AfC submitted drafts. The editor submitting the Draft intends for it to be included in mainspace. HAd they moved it to mainspace themselves we would A7 it. Legacypac (talk) 05:08, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• • • Support CSD#A criteria applied to any submitted draft, even if still in either draftspace or userspace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:20, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. I find all kinds of A7'able garbage in the depths of the orphaned articles categories from as far back as 2009 (and actually farther, since that's the earliest those things were tagged, many were created earlier). Just because we didn't have a review process back in the day doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to tag those things when we find them now. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 06:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a lot of crap; based on my experience with the "Random article" button I'd estimate 10000 old pages that could be speedy-deleted, and significantly more that don't meet any CSD but would certainly be deleted at AFD. A good portion of the CSD articles are G11. I don't think an extra 10 PRODs per day for 2 years would be an excessive burden. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak support. While I agree with PMC's comment above in general, WP:SILENCE teaches us that for articles that have existed for years the assumption is generally in favor of keeping the article. So while a hard-and-fast rule makes no sense considering that some articles might actually have not received any edits for years, in most cases admins should decline speedy requests for old articles except in the most obvious cases. We still don't need an AFD for a 2008 article about some teenager's high school band though. In the end, I would suggest adding some advisory language to the policy that admins should consider an article's age in their decision and send all but the most obvious cases to AFD instead. On a side note, please do not make this discussion about applying A-criteria to drafts again. This has been rejected multiple times now and if you really want this, start a separate RFC. Regards SoWhy 10:26, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • For another thread, yes, but A* criteria to apply to *submitted* drafts is a new idea that I think has strong merit. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:51, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

SoWhy - your extremely narrow reading of CSDs and inexperience in Draft management strain the credibility of your statements. Legacypac (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Legacypac, that is all of rude, unfair, and inaccurate. SoWhy is a very experienced old Wikipedian with interests more wider than yours. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:27, 8 April 2018 (UTC). Maybe “old” is not literally correct, he claims to be a jurist, which explains his long term considering wise-style commenting. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• • (edit conflict) WP:SILENCE states that silence is the weakest form of consensus, and that it can be interpreted in a number of different, contradictory ways. The fact that nobody speedy-tagged a given junk article doesn't mean that a consensus exists to keep it. It could mean that nobody ever saw it in the recent changes queue, nobody cared to look at it, nobody knew enough to decide, or any number of other things. Per WP:SILENCE, "Wikipedia is huge and our editors' time is limited." A lack of prior attention does not automatically mean that something passes our notability criteria - it just means that the project is so big that things fly under the radar. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 11:02, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

    Actually, we agree on that. Often such old articles will have had edits by multiple experienced editors and if all of them did not consider the article speedy-worthy, then it might be better to err on the side of caution. Examples from my own experience include Confederación Empresarial de Sociedades Laborales de España (kept at the AFD that followed), C2 Education (PROD that followed was contested by experienced editor, Softlavender), Sheffield One (multiple edits by experienced editors, including three current admins) and Andrew Cope (multiple edits by experienced editors, including five current admins). Of course, if the article has not received such edits, time is irrelevant. Regards SoWhy 12:48, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A number of those edits are automated edits like DAB fixing or category adjustments, meaning the editor in question likely wasn't even looking at the article or judging its quality. And, sorry, but nowhere in our CSD criteria is there an exception for "articles which have been edited by experienced editors" anyway. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that (non-automated) edits by multiple experienced editors usually indicates that they read the article and did not consider it worthy of speedy deletion, thus also indicating that speedy deletion is not the "obvious" path to take. Per the actual wording of the policy, speedy deletion should only occur "in the most obvious cases" though. The examples I mentioned above have actual content-based edits by experienced editors, indicating that they (at the time) felt the article is worth existing. Regards SoWhy 09:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose basically per PMC. I don't see why it should be harder to deal with obvious trash just because it has hung around undetected for a long time. Reyk _YO! 10:32, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose any narrowing of A7/A9 based on time. Legacypac (talk) 11:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• The problem with old articles isn't the time they've existed; it's the number of revisions they've had. For an article with many revisions, it's often better to take to AfD anyway, for a somewhat more permanent result, rather than spend 20 minutes digging through diffs to see if there's something keep-able, when you may have to just turn right around and spend another 20 minutes on BEFORE anyway. But these criteria already set such an exceedingly low bar that I don't see an obvious reason to lower it further. If it can be easily verified that every revision of an article meets A7/9, then we're still saving community time by getting rid of if with only one or two people in involved, rather than potentially dozens. GMG^talk 12:28, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment as a separate point not in response to any specific comment, while PROD of newly-created articles often doesn't work because a POV-promoting editor that created the article can decline it, this is much less frequent for old crap. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:04, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as it just seems to cause more work. An old article with prod on it will probably get no attention from anyone, so there won't really be a benefit. However I would not support admins unilaterally deleting pages under A7 or A9 without nominations, as it reduces the chance for revision old checking or just ignoring claims of importance that were there. Are there any examples of old articles eligible for A7 that should better have been AFD'd or prodded? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Per PMC, nothing else to add. Still, I trust SoWhy, particularly when it comes to A7, and would heartily endorse adding a line to the effect of Old articles with significant history should probably be considered through AfD instead. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 14:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Old articles that meet speedy deletion criteria are not that uncommon. We should not give extra privileges to articles that have managed to fly under the radar. However, Amory's suggested text would be a reasonable addition (and probably consistent with common practice already). -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:34, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• My initial suggestion clearly isn't happening any time soon; if the volume of old crap feels substantially lower in 2020 I may float the idea again then. The suggestion of adding a comment to A7 Old articles with significant history should probably be considered through AfD instead. may still find a consensus. power~enwiki (π, ν) 17:02, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A proposal was made in the section above about discussing the wisdom of applying all, or possibly a subset of, the CSD-A? criteria to submitted drafts and one of the participants requested that discussion on that topic not take place within the original thread.

• Comment No immediate opinion the matter. Just opening a section to facilitate discussion. Jbh ^Talk 17:38, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I'd like to support something like this for A7, but don't see a workable option. Specifically, new editors should get at least one chance to find offline sources, etc. if their initial proposal is declined, as well as to let them know that deletion is a possible outcome (in case they may want to maintain a copy elsewhere). Requiring at least two (or three) declines before a CSD occurs limits the "speedy"-ness of the action, but might be reasonable. power~enwiki (π, ν) 18:11, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• I think that many of the article criteria are unsuitable for drafts. For example, I don't think that it's a good idea to delete a draft only because there's no evidence that the subject is notable; the user should be allowed to correct the draft instead. If the criterion is changed so that the draft only is deleted after the user has been given a reasonable amount of time, then it's pointless to use notability article criteria as the page eventually will meet criterion G13 anyway. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:37, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This proposal needs to be properly workshopped and presented. Comments are welcome but let's not go too far down the road of judging it yet. We get a lot of pages about random high schoolers that shoild not be left untagged for deletion for 5 minutes after a responsible editor sees them. There is a large increase in AfC submissions (over 5 times more year over year) because of how we now direct new users who want to create new pages, and that is with ACTRIAL turned off. We are in different circumstances today. See Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/Submissions for some interesting stats. Legacypac (talk) 21:03, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Reviewers know when the topic is completely hopeless, just look at some example. Submission of the draft means they are trying to put it into mainspace, and when it is a fantasy story based on their mine craft experience one day, it is impossible that a new source will help. NPReviewers already have the judgement and discretion to know when to draftify an A7 and when to simply tag it. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Ever since ACTRIAL started, the deluge of new content went from NPP to AfC. However, it doesn't seem right to, say, A7 a submitted draft on it's first submission. That said, we need measures to deal with 8-times-declined drafts, nonstarters, and other problematic drafts. What about expanding PROD to draftspace? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Prod. Drafts are not watched, draft prod amounts to a nonobjective CSD. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • True, but so is G13 to an extent. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 23:42, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • G13 is completely objective. Prod is assumed to be subjective. A speedy deletion need not be “speedy”, it can have a delay time, but is expected to meet the four new criterion criteria, listed at the top of this page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:47, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • I mean, G13 gives carte blanche to admins to delete any page that hasn't been edited in six months. That's the only criterion. Also, I retract the DraftPROD idea. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 23:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Ultimately this comes don to a balancing act between not wasting our AfC reviewer's time reviewing Ax eligible pages over and over again, vs not biting the new comers. The question then becomes how many times we let them resubmit before we put our foot down and say enough. I trust everyone can see why both deleting after the first submission and allowing dozens of virtually unimproved submissions are both very bad ideas. I'd propose three submissions as the line between those two bad things, After three Ax eligible submissions, just delete it.Tazerdadog (talk) 23:57, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Good point. I think that drafts that are Ax worthy and not being improved at all, should be deleted. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 00:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • When a draft submission is so unsuitable that it immediately fits A7 or A11, and there are many of these, the kindest thing to do is to give the author a timely message. Timely means immediately. A submission about their minecraft cave system for example, it is to no one's benefit for them to be told a reviewer doesn't think is it suitable, but they are encouraged to edit it to improve it and then resubmit it. Deletion, immediate deletion is the best thing for the content, it was the wrong way to go. The automated A7 / A11 sorry text that the author receives is politely, positively and constructively worded. The newcomer needs to focus on that response, not on the unsuitable text they submitted. At AfC, they are working on a harder "Rejected" response, which will help, but that is for things that are in the opinion of the reviewer not notable, but not so bad as to be speediable. Much is speediable, or should be speediable. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft:Apartment 220, for example. Clearly should be deleted, with the author messaged accordingly. There are many of these. They are always SNOW deleted at MfD, where they waste time and space, creating and consuming more space and editorial time that even close to what the author invested in the page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft:Neon Habari (bio and background) is another. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Some web content examples. Brand new (at time of submission) facebook page.Draft:IdsView no amount of editing is going to help that. Another brand new website Draft:KickNtheBalls. Draft:Loki doki and to get another reviewer Draft:Loki Doki Draft:Mind Bending Thumb Bending and Draft:Never Have Ever Legacypac (talk) 01:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some, not all, of them are G11-eligible. G11 doesn't require the authors intent to be promotion, but if the sole effect of the page is to promote a facebook link, that's G11. A7 has the advantage of not impugning an author's intention intention to promote and brings up the A7 threshold of te indication of importance as the starting point for a new article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• A small group of admins want to interpret CSD very narrowly while many absolutely non-notable pages are a stretch for G11 simply because there is nothing on the page that is worth promoting. Legacypac (talk) 03:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• The problem with expanding any A-criteria to draft-space (except the fact that Draft-space was conceived as a place to work on stuff in peace without risking deletion) is that we cannot trust all users and admins to really only tag and delete the problematic drafts that have no chance of ever becoming an article. What some might bemoan as a "very narrow" interpretation is actually an attempt to prevent mistakes. If only 1 out of 10 deletions is a mistake, it also means that we lose 10% of content that should be included and (likely) 99% of the editors who created those pages. Personally, I find this too high a price to pay, considering the fact that we keep losing editors anyway.
  Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that we should keep all those drafts per se, although no one has so far given a good reason what the harm would be in just waiting until they become stale and then G13'ing them, considering that those pages are not indexed and thus not seen by the outside world (people resubmitting a rejected draft without changes is not a problem with the draft and should be handled by sanctioning the editor). But I don't see a way to objectively codify this in a way to prevent the aforementioned mistakes. For example, someone recently raised the case Draft:Steve Negron on my talk page which so far has five rejections despite the subject meeting WP:NPOL#1 as a state legislator. As such, it would now meet the suggested criteria for deletion (see above) and would likely be deleted by an admin with a "loose" interpretation of speedy deletion (despite never ever meeting A7 if it were in article-space). In the end, this seems a solution that might lead to babies being thrown out with the bathwater and considering the amount of A7-mistakes made in article space, it's hard to envision that there will be less such mistakes in Draft-space. Regards SoWhy 09:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • User:SoWhy, the harm would be in just waiting until they become stale and then G13'ing them is the lack of timely response to the author. Especially kid vanity and trolling, A7s and A11s that don’t deserve a week at MfD, but are patently unsuitable. It is not kinder to not tell the author what we know, and the auto-messaging of A7 and A11 is exactly what they need. Making submitted drafts eligible for A7 and A11 doesn't mean the reviewer has to speedy delete, but it is easy for reviewers to see that to leave the page live in draftspace is the wrong message and can only waste further time, whether author time, or reviewer time. G13 is for abandoned, it is not meant to be slow deletion for things that need immediate deletion. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:57, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • @SmokeyJoe: But don't they get a response that their draft is unsuitable when it gets rejected? So they are getting informed, aren't they? The question was, is there a reason why we have to delete them if those pages are not visible to the outside world anyway. After all, all speedy deletion carries the risk of good content being removed mistakenly so the benefits have to outweigh those risks significantly. Regards SoWhy 07:02, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • User:SoWhy, I’m largely working off the reaction of others who feel the patently hopeless crap (see the examples I have listed) is so offensive to them that they feel the need to dump it on mfd, where it takes up space, dilutes the quality of work there, and gets SNOW deleted, but in balance I think they are right. Currently, DraftSpace errs far on the side of preserving patently hopeless crap, at least for the six months following the author giving up. I am bothered by how slow that giving up process is. The fact that the patently hopeless made up story does not get deleted, but remains live with functional “edit” tabs, means to some patent crap submitters that they can continue to play the game. The number of good topics deleted I think is very small. Even the afc promoted articles are pretty mediocre, mostly orphan permastubs that don’t really pass notability but are so boring no deletionist will bother. The article about the high school dormitory bathroom, or the minecraft tunnel experience, it hurts the sanity of the reviewers to have no disposal route for them. If it were me, I’d make a {{Userpage blanked}} version for draftspace and replace the patently hopeless submission, easily reverted if I make a mistake, an abundantly clear message to the author, but I’m pushing for the sanity of the reviewers. Some make coherent arguments for why blanking is not good enough. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:39, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• How many are we talking about? I have MfD'd hopeless drafts before now, it doesn't seem to cause much burden. Guy (Help!) 09:57, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• As with previous proposals, I 1. remain unconvinced that there is any need for this, and 2. believe it to be antithetical to the whole point of drafts. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 14:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• The draft namespace is for allowing editors time to work on a proposed article without the possibility that it will be summarily deleted. The AFC submission is to allow the editor to get feedback on how to improve the article so it won't be summarily deleted in the main space. If we give a new editor one shot at getting a draft right we might as well shut down the draft namespace and AFC. ~ GB fan 14:36, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are thousands of declines, often multiple declines, that are clear A7 material where no amount of editing will help them. Draft space is for working on potential articles, not for developing and submitting material with zero chance of having a place in mainspace. Removing the junk helps us find and work with the promising much easier. Editors with almost no experience at AfC or MfD will raise uninformed philosophical objections unfortunately which just makes the work of ArC harder. Legacypac (talk) 17:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think you've mixed up your criteria; you say clear A7 material, but no amount of editing will help is fundamentally a statement about notability. A7 is not "not notable." ~ Amory (u • t • c) 18:30, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think he meant there is no way to write a credible claim of significance because there is no claim of significance for the person/organization/whatever. From what I've seen, many articles tagged under A7 pertain to a subject that has essentially no significance and "no amount of editing will help". However, there are definitely a few articles that fail to state significance, but a bit of research shows they are: deleting those submitted drafts under A7 would be damaging. I don't know whether we can say any new editor can find a 'credible claim of significance' in three tries, especially with the limited guidance given in the templates of declined draft submissions. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is arguing one shot to get it right, we're arguing three shots to get it non-speedyable. Surely you see the opposite side where submitting hopeless drafts over and over again is a wasteful drain on the community's resources? Tazerdadog (talk) 17:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Tazerdadog editors are clearly arguing one shot to get it right. SmokeyJoe uses Draft:Taylor Evans as an example of why we should do this. It has been submitted and declined once. Legacypac uses Draft:Greenwich Music School as an example and it also has been submitted and declined once. I do see the drain if pages are submitted multiple times with no or little improvement. That is a user conduct issue and can be dealt with as disruptive editing. ~ GB fan 18:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• As people have noted above these proposals miss the point of draft space. The whole idea is that if you need to work on a page without the threat that it will be deleted due to failing standards XYZ then you can work on it in draft space until it is up to scratch and then move it to mainspace. Deleting pages in draft space for failing standards XYZ makes this meaningless. This proposal wouldn't allow people any time at all to address certain decline reasons because the draft would be deleted shortly after it was declined. Anyone saying that these pages are causing loads of work at MfD needs to actually have a look there: as I write this there are a whopping 36 drafts nominated for deletion, many of which wouldn't qualify for this anyway. AfC reviewers are in my experience very harsh, I wouldn't conclude that a topic is hopeless from the fact that one has declined a submission. Hut 8.5 18:05, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, and this is still true for the "three-strikes" or "n-strikes" ideas. If I were new and didn't understand A7, being told I have one more submission before the article could be deleted unilaterally would be threatening: the point of draft-space is to avoid those situations. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:48, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one is talking about a full notability test A7 is "A7. No indication of importance (people, animals, organizations, web content, events)" which is a much lower standard. Reviewers are not typically sending the pages to MfD but declining them, then declining again, until someday it hits G13. Legacypac (talk) 18:42, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's the intent, but A7 is misapplied all the time in mainspace. Its bar often strays closer to "notability" than it really should. In mainspace this can be justified to some extent: there is a standard of quality. In draftspace, that isn't true anymore. Appable (talk | contributions) 18:53, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No one is talking about a full notability test as "A7. No indication of importance (people, animals, organizations, web content, events)" which is a much lower standard. Reviewers are not typically sending the pages to MfD but declining them, then declining again, until someday it hits G13. Admins would use the same A7 standard with no change so it would not be up to afc reviewers only. Legacypac (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• discussion seems to have wandered from the OP which was about submitted drafts. Please don't discuss as though "any old draft" were being considered. thx Jytdog (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but some people may be unclear as to what a submitted draft actually is - they may assume that it means a page saved to draft space, as opposed to a page in draft space that has had a {{AFC submission}} added to it. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 20:22, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• See Draft:The Bucket Wars at MfD. It should not be allowed to be submitted two more times. It is bad faith, it is trolling. Per WP:DENY, I argue that it should not be given its weeks at MfD. An immediate response is demanded. By submitting the draft, the author is asserting its move to mainspace, it is no longer in pre-development. In mainspace, A11 exists for things like this. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:27, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• I believe we need a way to expediently get rid of drafts that can never be article material, but expanding A* criteria to draftspace defeats the purpose. There must be a better way. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 09:37, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with your recent propensity to MfD weak worthless harmless drafts. Before submission, it can be very hard to tell what the author was thinking, there can be insufficient information to tell. Once Submitted, the author implicitly believes and asserts it is ready, that they would have it in mainspace. Treating it as a mainspace creation is appropriate. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:44, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Right, my reasoning is that "the author is probably gone, and a google search didn't turn up any reliable sources. This draft isn't going anywhere, therefore delete". I can see your point for submission to AfC and whether or not it is ready though. (Somewhat related, I oppose G13 on principle, as I believe it is way too broad and gets too much workable content in its dragnet.) Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 09:50, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• See Draft:Taylor Evans. Submitted. There is no doubt it needs deletion. G11 fits at a stretch, but A7 is the more appropriate. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:48, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • That one's pretty bad, no doubt. However, I *generally* oppose applying A* criteria at first submission. Three unchanged submissions, however, and I would say you have a point. Though it would be best if other contributors helped fix these submissions, some drafts just aren't going anywhere, and it isn't really our job to fix low-quality submissions. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 09:54, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - It may be useful to clarify exactly what User:SmokeyJoe and User:Legacypac are saying. These two editors have been often disagreeing at MFD, but have come to agreement. Submitted drafts are drafts that have been submitted to AFC for the AFC review process. They aren't anything else. If an author-editor Submits an AFC draft, they are requesting that it be accepted into article space, and so the author-editor is saying that the draft is ready to be judged by the standards of article space. These standards include that the article should have a credible claim of significance. We aren't suggesting that a full notability test be applied, but only that people, bands, companies, events, and whatever have a credible claim of significance and not have been made up. A submitted draft means a draft that has been Submitted to AFC for review and for which acceptance into article space has been requested. Robert McClenon (talk) 10:25, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - In my opinion, the exceptions for sandboxes for G2 and G1 also should not apply to Submitted drafts. That is, when the author-editor Submits the draft to AFC, they are saying that it is ready for article space, so it isn't a test edit and it isn't Patent nonsense. ~~
• Comment - Submitted drafts means drafts for which acceptance into article space has been requested, and therefore not crud. Robert McClenon (talk) 10:25, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• another example: Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:Greenwich Music School page is not G11 promotional but a local music school is simply not notable and this one was started in January 2018. It's a submitted draft which means we asked to put it in mainspace where it would be immediately CSD'd Legacypac (talk) 16:54, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment – I'm somewhat opposed to extending A* CSD to drafts. My impression is that the concern is wasting reviewers' time with repeatedly-submitted unsuitable drafts. I assert that a solution to this problem has to address the user behavior that is causing it, without being too WP:BITEy. Along the lines of the three-strikes proposals, I suggest that a thrice-declined and throroughly unpromising draft may be summarily userfied, something any reviewer can do, with a warning. What should that warning say? And what should the user be required to do before submitting again? I'd require at a minimum that the user engage in a discussion on the now userspace draft's talk page or at the AfC Help Desk with, preferably, the declining reviewer or, at least, any AfC reviewer, where the deficiencies of the draft that would cause it to be speedied if it were in articlespace are addressed. Submission without this discussion would be blockable tendentious editing, vaguely akin to various DS regimes. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:56, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Alternatively, for the benefit of not messing with automated tools, we could create CSD#D1 corresponding to A7, and D2 corresponding to A11, for author submitted drafts that would meet A7 or A11, with the explicit note that tagging is not mandatory, the reviewer may tag, or may reject, on their own judgment, potentially distinguishing “fundamentally hopeless” from “currently hopeless looking”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:10, 12 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  Perhaps we could use matching numbers - D7 corresponding to A7, and D11 corresponding to A11. Should any more of the A criteria be demonstrably useful for drafts, they can readily be slotted in where appropriate - I can see a potential for parallels of WP:CSD#A3 [No content] and WP:CSD#A9 [No indication of importance (musical recordings)], and we would call these D3 and D9. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 18:17, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I like that idea. We sometimes use G2 test on No Content Draft pages but it's not a perfect fit. Legacypac (talk) 18:23, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment 2 points:
  1. There's no real problem with letting pages that are in draft space and not submitted for AFC review (and potential promotion to mainspace) lie there and let G13 capture the stragglers. Concievable if the page is being edited it's being improved. If an editor stumbles across a draft that isn't in AFC and isn't being updated, the question of the draft
  2. I suggest not circumscribing or perscribing a "If X, Do Y" CSD rule regarding drafts. I would prefer a "AFC submission declined multiple times with no improvement" CSD rule so items that are slam dunks in MFD can short circuit the process. Hasteur (talk) 11:45, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• I would like to see A11 being applied to submitted (or any, for that matter) drafts - A11 is designed to deal with pages that have no redeeming value whatsoever. A7 is more tricky -- there are the hopeless A7s and those that may be on notable subjects but notability was not established. I would support a CSD for drafts being resubmitted multiple (2-3) times without improvement. MER-C 12:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also support the application of A3 to submitted, blank drafts. MER-C 19:22, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft:Havin' a snat. If you don’t believe in speedy deletion A11 style in draft space, what process do you think should deal with this draft? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:48, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • A11 for draftspace is actually a good idea. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 04:53, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I support allowing A11 for drafts submitted to AfC, and am neutral on allowing it for all drafts. I'm still not comfortable with A7/A9 deletions on articles submitted to AfC only once, though. power~enwiki (π, ν) 00:37, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Have to agree with you on A7/A9 (which should be merged anyway). Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 03:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Draft:Taylor Evans? Should be speediable, not put through three rounds before deleting. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Owenblist/sandbox clear A7 not promotional not vandalism but not worth taking to MfD or even keeping in AfC categories. Should be able to tag for deletion and done. Legacypac (talk) 00:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User sandboxes, the user’s main sandbox, is a special page users are pointed to for testing. They should be blanked, not deleted, so the user can find their testing. AfC scripts should auto-detect their placement on a page titled “sandbox” and respond differently. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:02, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes in this case I'm comfortable blanking the sandbox but the example is exactly on point for the type of content we shoudk be aboe to speedy. Legacypac (talk) 01:28, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Was pinged by Joe - A* should apply to drafts, Limiting CSDs just means drafts get declined for the umpteenth time or their MFD'd - Whilst MFD is fine IMHO it shouldn't be used for the most obvious (It'd be no different to coming across something very poor in articlespace and then AFDing it even tho it's CSD-able) - If editors want a final chance in saving it then they can contest the speedy and put something like "Will source in x days", So I agree drafts should be included in the CSD criteria. –Davey2010^Talk 01:59, 15 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Currently, R2 states:

Regarding that second sentence, it will not surprise you to know that practically all R2 deletions are a result of Main->Draft/Usersandbox moves, mainly the former, being tagged immediately upon creation. These are usually created by a patroller "draftifying/incubating" articles they deem not ready for mainspace. A number of scripts have made this process much easier with the end result being that people are not waiting a day or two before tagging or deleting such redirects. By means of example, here are 50 R2 deletions from January; of these 50, 49 are Main->Draft/User redirects and one was made in error. After being moved, only 2 persisted for longer than 24 hours; 10 were deleted >12 hours after moving, and after being tagged, nothing lasted longer than 9 hours. I also perused 100 each from March and December, and found only redirects to Draft with maybe a half-dozen to userspace.

While this is just a slice of R2 deletions, it's actually a major undercount: sysops and pagemovers are allowed to suppress redirects for cross-namespace redirects per WP:PMRC#6, which theoretically is in direct conflict with the printed suggestion in R2. That specific language is an unchanged holdover from a 2005 rewrite, well before the Draft: namespace existed, when the intent of R2 was for Main->User redirects (actually it goes further back, to 2003). The project has matured, and it's clear the community has never wanted redirects to Draft or User space polluting mainspace, so R2 is an outlier compared to the explicit prohibitions against speedy deletion after page moves we see in G7 or R3. Regardless, the end result is that we are ignoring the second sentence of WP:CSD#R2 roughly 100% of the time. As such, I think we have three options:

• Option 1: Remove the sentence. Changes: none.
• Option 2: Keep the sentence and continue ignoring it. Changes: none (status quo).
• Option 3: Enforce a waiting period before deleting. Changes: Main->Draft/Userspace redirects linger for a day or two, extendedmovers can no longer suppress when draftifying.

I like the idea of waiting a bit out of kindness but am clearly in favor of option 1 as it matches current community practice. The movelog entry is clearly visible on the page and, if it is draftified, there will be a notice saying "A draft exists at..." so I'm not worried about users finding "their" page. Option 3 leaves items to fall through the cracks unless we create a PROD-like system (RPROD? XNRPROD?), surely isn't worth the bureaucracy. Option 2, in addition to institutionalizing a system of ignoring suggestions, would allow any jerk of a sysop to follow the letter of the law and POINTedly request a reversal of any R2 they see. We've been ignoring this suggestion for a while; it's time to finally remove this holdover from a different era. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 19:05, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Option 1 the box with heading "A page with this title has previously been moved or deleted." contains the link to the new location, which is sufficient for all purposes I have considered. power~enwiki (π, ν) 19:09, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• If the redirect is not instantly tagged for deletion, there's a risk that it will be forgotten and that it will remain for a long time. --Stefan2 (talk) 19:44, 8 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support option 1, not opposed to option 2. I don't see the benefit in leaving a redirect for a few days. If needed, it's not a lot of effort to recreate. Natureium (talk) 02:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Agree with option 1, aligning deletion reason with practice. We can also encourage page movers to notify the writer why it moved. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Support option 1. It reflects the reasonable current practice. -- Ed (Edgar181) 14:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1. Current practice. I feel like it's also kinder? In that the redirect will need to be deleted by an admin if the author wants to put their draft back in mainspace anyway (the extra edit nominating the redirect for R2 will disable the ability for just anyone to move over the redirect, since there will be more than one revision in the history page). The quicker we delete the redirect, the quicker the draft can be reintroduced as a proper article; not sure I see the sense in waiting. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 14:35, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 1 this is actual policy per practice; we just need to catch up the writing. Jytdog (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• The consensus here seems sufficiently clear that I went ahead and removed the sentence. Tazerdadog (talk) 20:25, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support removal. Waiting is against the idea of speedy. Legacypac (talk) 20:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support the edit made by Tazerdadog I also don't see any reasonable advantage to the waiting restriction.--Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 10:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Support option 1 as already implemented by Tazerdadog. Redirects from articlespace into draftish areas should always be speedily removed. — jmcgnh^{(talk) (contribs)} 17:26, 10 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Option 4. Retain the sentence but don't ignore it in all cases. Waiting isn't necessary in all cases, but it is appropriate in some which is why it is phrased as "consider" not "you must". How we enforce consideration I don't know, but deleting the sentence is certainly not the answer. Thryduulf (talk) 00:34, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm wondering what you all thinkb about applying CSD A9 to podcasts. I think blatantly non-notable podcasts fall under the spirit of A9, but I can see how from a different perspective someone might say A9 applies only to musical content. What do you think, and maybe A9 should be rewritten to apply to all video and audio recordings? --Pstanton (talk) 03:47, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If you ask me, A7 and A9 are redundant, but I think the spirit of them covers podcasts. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 03:49, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's a good point. Why are all the other specifications of no indication of importance (people, animals, organizations, web content, events) deleted under A7, but musical recordings deleted under A9? Natureium (talk) 04:32, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A9 has the additional specification that the artist doesn't have an article, which isn't found in any of the A7 categories. I suppose we could fit that into A7 but the wording might be a bit awkward. Hut 8.5 10:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Read the criteria. A9 specifically does not apply to other forms of creative media, so no, it doesn't apply to podcasts. However, if you read the material linked by webcontent, aka Wikipedia:Notability (web), you'll find that [w]eb content includes, but is not limited to, blogs, Internet forums, newsgroups, online magazines, other media, podcasts, webcomics, and web portals. Emphasis mine. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 11:53, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd summarize podcasts under A7 (web) as well, although like with A9, if the podcast is made by someone who has an article, WP:ATD tells us to merge/redirect there instead. That's the reason A9 exists separately, to avoid people tagging recordings by notable artists which can and should be redirected/merged instead. Regards SoWhy 12:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes podcasts would all fall under A7, and so could be deleted if that applies. Many podcasts will have notability independent of their creators though, so A9 seems quite wrong. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, does a page need to be tagged G13 tag before it can be deleted or can an admin just delete it outright if it's eligible? I ask because I've been tagging and waiting for others to delete but I've noticed some admins just delete them instantly. Cheers, Anarchyte (work | talk) 11:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anarchyte: This page should probably say it explicitly, but if admins are sure that a page qualifies for any criterion, then there is no need to tag it - see "How to do this" at Wikipedia:Deletion_policy#Speedy_deletion Administrators can delete such pages on sight. In practice, I know we often do tag the more subjectove one's for a second opinion, but if we are sure, then there is no need to add an extra level of bureaucracy. SmartSE (talk) 15:19, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note Anarchyte, in AFAIK all cases of CSD, the tag doesn't actually have anything to do with the deletion itself. It's just categorizing pages by eligibility so that they're easier to find by reviewing admins. This is in contrast to PROD and BLPPROD, where the tag is itself material to the deletion process. The only exception to this would be G7 where the only request from the author is a tag, but any request would do. It just happens to come in the form of a CSD template. GMG^talk 17:48, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree if an admin had a good reason to believe that a page is eligible for speedy deletion I see no reason for them to need to wait for someone to tag it first. Also, G13 seems to be a fairly straightforward criteria so it should not be difficult for an admin to know if it applies.--67.68.161.151 (talk) 19:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, thanks everyone! I always thought a page had to be tagged before it could be deleted (except G3, G11, G12, and similar). I'll continue to tag A7s and such because I think a page's author should know why and how to fix notability issues but I won't bother tagging G13s in the future. Anarchyte (work | talk) 01:03, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Anarchyte: If you find a page that is G13 eligible and you're not an admin, go ahead and nominate it. The worst that could happen is you push the date for re-nomination down the road 6 months because you acted hastily. Some editors believe that "trivial" edits don't reset the G13 clock, however as the operator of the primary mover of G13 nominations I tend to take the more conservative view "6 months unedited means 6 months unedited". I would also note that the templates for AFC also bear out the more conservative view of the rule. There's nothing preventing an admin from stumbling into a page and deleting it outright. Hasteur (talk) 01:21, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly support people leaving all normal cases of G13 deletions, which are housekeeping regardless of content, for User:HasteurBot. That bot does the checks, and posts well worded notifications. Individuals tagging and deleting G13 manually are not saving anyone time or improving on any process. If HasteurBot has problems or room for improvement, tell its owner. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:40, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Happy for the bot to do nominations but when a human does them the Admin knows the human looked at them. When reviewing G13able I tag G2, G11 etc where applicable to close off the REFUND of inappropriate pages. I also tag non-saveable Drafts I find that had a bot edit or DAB fix or non-free file removal automated stuff that did not improve the page but pushed off the date from HaseurBot's point of view. That is allowed by the G13 wording and has never been declined. Legacypac (talk) 01:56, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's possibly OK, but when you do a manual G13 tagging due to a preceding bot edit, does the author get the pre-G13 warning notification? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:23, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The bot does not notify many page creators and there would be no month ahead nomination in the case I describe. The creator gets notification of the nomination. Presumably the bot notofies some creators and then the page gets a nominal edit and not deleted. So nothing is perfect. Legacypac (talk) 03:35, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@SmokeyJoe: In the typical case, bot drops a "Your draft will soon be eligible for CSD:G13" notice at approimately 5 months unedited. The task only runs over pages that are in the Articles for Creation based on memership in Category:AfC submissions by date (and it's subcategories) that are in Old Draft space (Wikipedia talk:Articles for Creation/) or Draft Namespace. Pages that are in the Draft namespace that don't have even one AFC submission banner are never considered by HasteurBot. Hasteur (talk) 01:23, 19 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is annoying for admins to just delete pages with G13 without notifying or having the page tagged for others to see if it is worth rescuing. When these pages are undeleted on request, it is then not clear that it went through G13, and extra dummy edits are needed to avoid it being redeleted immediately. So I agree that User:HasteurBot should handle it, or failing that another user nominates it, at least that gets an extra eye on whether the page is worth preservation. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 12:13, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• In all normal cases doing single-handed CSD deletions is a very dangerous practice. I've been doing over a thousand deletions a year for many years, and I have a 2 or 3% error rate at speedy--I think there are a few admins who are somewhat more accurate, but 1% is about the human limit. Two people looking at a deletion is much better. Some admins have been known to have biases or not-standard views, and requiring 2 people is a necessary check which has the merit of reducing conflict and confrontation. There are sometimes emergency cases, there are sometimes utterly trivial errors to fix. But for anything substantive there should be two people.

I would especially apply this to G13s. Whether a G13 is appropriate is not mechanical--I have come across G13s where the draft can instead be immediately accepted as an article. Relying on undeletion on request doesn't deal with the possibility that someone other than the original editor may want to rescue it. DGG ( talk ) 00:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What is the status of the content translation tool cleanup? Anecdotally I haven't seen this used in quite some time (maybe a year or so ago I deleted a few pages tagged with this), but I'm not sure what the people most involved in this think. I'm pinging the two users I can think of as most active in this cleanup, @S Marshall: and @DGG:. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I remember it well – this discussion was taking up a lot of space on the Administrators' Noticeboard for a long time: first all the articles on this list were going to be deleted straight off, then they were going to be converted to drafts and then deleted... Various deadlines came and went, and in the end no mass action was taken. I think No such user's comment at the very end of the thread had it about right, and I wouldn't want to see the issue raked up again at this stage. Happy to see X2 go: Noyster (talk), 16:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the ping. I have nothing to add to that comment, except that I'm happy that the matter silently went archived from AN without action (it was poorly thought out from the outset), and that I'm also happy to see X2 go. No such user (talk) 17:40, 16 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• My main activity was in trying to rescue the 20% or so pages that seemed notable, and were translated from a language I could attempt to deal with or which could be easily corrected from readily available English source, & trying to at least indicate the even greater number which seemed worth working on but for which I had not the ability. There are some topics and languages where aa WP article is in such a stereotyped format that a machine translation is a reasonable start, but this has to be judged by actually looking at the translation and the original, and atthe sources. The situation was not an emergency, and should not have been treated as one. We should remove X2 also, and I thik we know nbetter than to try again a project that involves deleting articles without reading them. DGG ( talk ) 01:08, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @Mathglot: as another major contributor to the cleanup. Tazerdadog (talk) 02:36, 17 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We already have P1 so we may extend it to redirects. R3 already covers the Portal namespace, but R2 is only for redirects from the (Main) namespace. I propose that we extend R2 criterion to redirects from the Portal namespace. This would avoid unnecessary MfD bureaucracy. wumbolo ^^^ 20:37, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So change to read: Cross Namespace Redirects: This applies to redirects, apart from shortcuts, from the main and Portal namespace to any other namespace except the Category:, Template:, Wikipedia:, Help: and Portal: namespaces. "See also Wikipedia:Cross-namespace redirects and Category:Cross-namespace redirects." ?

• Support Portals, which are linked from mainspace, should not link into Draft space, which is likely going to happen quite a bit as the Portal clean up continues (assuming the whole name space survives). Legacypac (talk) 21:07, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose, not frequent, and portal pages are sometimes redirected cross-space to article space. I generally oppose moving portals to draft space, as they require their entire subpage structure to be moved around. It is much better to use Category:Portals under construction instead of moving to draft space. —Kusma (t·c) 21:14, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose as per Kusma. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:19, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - A portal may be associated with one or more WikiProjects; unlike a WikiProject, however, it is meant for both readers and editors of Wikipedia, and should promote content and encourage contribution (from Wikipedia:Portal). Thus, a case may be able to be made for redirects from the portal space to the projectspace. Also per Kusma. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 23:38, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Godsy: what is projectspace? wumbolo ^^^ 13:03, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

​ The "Wikipedia" namespace, see Wikipedia:Project namespace. ~ Amory (u • t • c) 13:31, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Godsy: the criterion actually explicitly forbids tagging redirects to projectspace. wumbolo ^^^ 13:36, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Wumbolo: Amorymeltzer is correct, however, on this occasion it was my intention to convey that redirecting a portal to the draft or userspace (i.e. any space outside the mainspace or portalspace) would be arguable under the current description provided about portals (whereas it is not for mainspace pages which are intended, in essence, solely for readers). SoWhy alludes to another good point that, currently, the userfication or draftification of portals without the consensus of a deletion venue is deleting a title out-of-process. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 20:27, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes the wording I posted would preclude a Portal->mainspace redirect. We need better wording than. Category:Portals under construction does nothing to hide the Portal from public view, unless I'm missing something, its basically a maintenance tag. Now if the page was tagged at the top with a big UNFINISHED DRAFT box that would be better. Legacypac (talk) 21:22, 24 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• I have no problem with having a box on top of portals under construction. That could also include warning against linking to the unfinished portal from mainspace and portal space. —Kusma (t·c) 08:44, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose at this time. Such a change makes only sense iff the Portal namespace survives at all and there is consensus that portals should be moved to Draft-space to be worked on. At this time, there is consensus for neither. If this changes, a change of CSD to address redirects left by legitimate moves to Draft-space can be considered. Regards SoWhy 14:10, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Question from Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:Captain-tucker/Emma Hunton.

Does the {{userspace draft}} tag make a userpage an AfC page? Should it? User:Hasteur? I think if not, the tag should not create the AfC big blue “submit” button. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it does not. The criterion is clear ... any rejected or unsubmitted Articles for creation pages with the {{AFC submission}} template in userspace .... {{userspace draft}} is not equivalent to {{AFC submission}}. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 23:28, 25 April 2018 (UTC). Will you please stop with this bloody annoying unreadable minimum contrast failing font colour. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:53, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On a review of the many pages in categories of userpage drafts dating back many years, I think they need to be cleared. Either by expanding G13, or applying {{Inactive userpage blanked}} to the lot, subject to the same age and activity criteria of G13. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:55, 25 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

{{userspace draft}} merely designates something as a draft in the userspace. Either all "drafts" in the userspace should be eligible for deletion, or not; doing it based on which arbitrarily bear a purely descriptive template (as opposed to one that explicitly places it within the AfC process and thereby its regulation) is inappropriate. Furthermore, the distinction between a userspace and a draftspace draft would also largely be lost. I would oppose such an expansion of the criteria and I believe such a widening has been shot down at least once in the past. That aside, the button in question makes it convenient for authors to induct pages into the AfC process, if they desire, so I would oppose removing it. — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 00:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would call that a !vote for blanking most of them using {{Inactive userpage blanked}}. Most of them being forgotten drafts of very dubious notability. I would recommend every reviewer to decide between (1) Any applicable CSD criteria, starting with G11 then U5; (2) blanking; (3) moving to mainspace if OK; or (4) leave it alone. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:09, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm neutral in regard to such pages remaining as is or being blanked then tagged with {{inactive userpage blanked}} (the pros and cons of obfuscating the content are finer points I don't desire to address). — Godsy ^(TALK_CONT) 01:20, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Few items: CSD is a bypass that we have agreed that given certain circumstances a MFD nomination succeeding is a foregone conclusion. Usersapce drafts are not currently in scope for G13. Displaying the "Submit for AFC review" button when a user uses the Userspace draft is a good thing as it potentially makes userspace work have a path that could lead to mainspace. The perenial argument of "Something needs to be done with the reams of stale content in draft space" is a good one and when a widely sourced crystal clear consensus (preferably hosted at Village Pump) that has sollicited WT:UP, WT:CSD, WT:DRAFT to get feedback then something could be done. Until then any consensus discussions here run the risk of being violently overturned when someone gets upset about it. Hasteur (talk) 04:41, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Can someone explain why we should waste our time cleaning up such pages? They are not indexed and no normal reader will ever see them. WIth the backlogs, especially at AFC, as huge as they are, should we really add more work to the backlogs? On a side note, I myself have a couple of userspace drafts on my to-do list that I have been meaning to finish for 8-9 years now. They never bothered anyone but me. And I'm sure I will get to them soon... Regards SoWhy 14:14, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with the maxim that volunteers should not tell other volunteers how to choose to volunteer their time. I agree that fiddling with the never viewed old userspace drafts of inactive users is a low value task. If others really want to look for rough gems there, and bury the dust while at it, I much prefer that they use {{inactive userpage blanked}}, because there is far less harm done if done with error, than if done with deletion, and because deletion is a high cost process not justified by the low value of the task. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• No. Also ditto SoWhy. I guess they can be blanked with {{inactive userpage blanked}} -- but what's the point if there's no way someone can find it without searching userspace? — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:43, 26 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • @SoWhy: Some people like writing FAs, some people like resolving copyright issues, some people like trolling the DramaBoards for the misery and suffering of other wikipeidans, and some people like crossing off backlogs. The collective wiki-We don't have to do anything. Either the pages will be actioned or they won't. If it offends you that much, don't think about it. Hasteur (talk) 23:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC) PS: Don't edit under the unfluence of a tasty adult beverage kids. It' makes your witty remarks less.... witty[reply]
• If someone is inactive (never coming back), why would we keep their content in that state at all? Either promote it to draftspace if it's at least somewhat workable, or if its total trash CSD it and be done with it. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 03:18, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Disruptive attitude. How do you know they are not coming back? Will your deletion of their notes be unwelcoming to them when they do return? If they meet WP:RIP we do not delete their subpages, we archive at most. Promoting to mainspace without a champion who actually cares is detrimental to mainspace. Sending to draftspace is just a slow route to deletion, draftspace has no advantages except in keeping the inept out of mainspace. Total trash CSD-worthy should be CSD-ed per applicable criteria regardless of author activity. In your real life workplace, do you make a habit of cleaning up others' desks? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:13, 27 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone termed a disambig Cosmic energy (disambiguation) to a redirct to and copied the disambig material to Cosmic energy (disambiguation).

Does that qualify as an a3? Or any other kind of speedy delete? TantraYum (talk) 06:43, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Decided to AfD it, if it meets speedy delete, please come along and do it TantraYum (talk) 07:14, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Ask at WT:RM. It’s the RM people who care about DAB pages. It looks to me like an attempt at a WP:CONCEPTDAB. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:59, 28 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• Draft:Eyu Kassa for example. Already G11-ed twice, recreated again. I notice because I auto-watchlist what I tag. It has been created by a registered user, but recreations are by an IP. What should I do to alert admins to the repeated recreations post G11? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:51, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  When you tag it, also add {{salt}}. Primefac (talk) 12:24, 1 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]