I am a non-admin, and having just been chastised for tagging an article with G4 wrongly, I think the guidance for its use should be expanded as follows:

Non-administrators do not have access to articles that have been deleted as a result of an Articles for Deletion discussion. They should therefore only nominate an article for speedy deletion under the G4 criteria if there is certainty that the new article is substantially identical, for example through familiarity with the article prior to its deletion.

See also archived discussion here. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is pretty well assumed most of the time. Usually the best course of action is to reach out to your friendly neighborhood admin and get them to do a quick check to see if they are sufficiently identical. GMG^talk 20:18, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That suggestion could also feature in the guidance. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 20:22, 20 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Shifting perspective to the editing flow when a new instance is created by the name of a previously deleted page, the red-highlighted instructions are clear: ”If you are creating a new page with different content, please continue. If you are recreating a page similar to the previously deleted page, or are unsure, please first contact the user(s) who performed the action(s) listed below.” If contributors follow those instructions, a repost susceptible to CSD G4 should never arise. But it does.

The proposed definition combines “certainty” with “substantially identical” in a responsibility on the tagger. That remains interpretive and easily gamed against non-admin editors. I see no virtue in constructing another situation which can result in negative feedback on the judgment of reviewers seeking to deal honestly with reposts which are often system-gaming by people with a direct interest in achieving a published article.

If non-admins are going to be susceptible to negative comments after proposing CSD G4, then I suggest the second sentence of the proposed guidance should instead become ”Instead of nominating the new article for speedy deletion under the G4 criteria, they should open a new Articles for Deletion discussion, with a rationale which suggests that it may be a repost of the article previously deleted under this or a variant name.” The downside is an(other) uplift in AfD workload, but the merit is that it provides the non-admin with a decisive above-board process. AllyD (talk) 09:42, 21 November 2017 (UTC),[reply]

• If a new page patroller believes in good faith that something is a recreation (standard case: something that was deleted just minutes ago), they should tag the new page for G4. The reviewing admin should also assume good faith, and either delete or un-tag without making the tagger feel bad about it. It is not reasonable to expect perfection from the tagger here, and it is explicitly an admin job to check whether something is or is not a G4. (There are cases when it is clearly wrong to tag something previously deleted as G4: say, something was deleted as lacking sources in 2006, and there are reliable sources from 2017 about something the subject did in the past ten years cited in the article). —Kusma (t·c) 09:50, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  In other words, I think Nyttend is wrong about the general principle that you should only tag when you are sure that it is a repost (i.e. only when you are an admin and don't need to tag). However, I don't think the grumpy reply Curb Safe Charmer received necessitates any change in procedures. They tagged something in good faith, they were wrong, the page was not deleted, no harm done. In any case, the main mistake Curb Safe Charmer made here is the following: The existence of an AFD for a person does not mean we should have to delete a draft about the same person. If any "abuse" of process occurred here, it is in the fact that drafts are not usually covered by a previous AFD, only by a previous MFD. —Kusma (t·c) 10:02, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  not sure this worked, so pinging @Nyttend: with my apologies for any double pings. —Kusma (t·c) 10:03, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  This would be a very good addition. The policy is clear, and should remain clear, that this is for reposts, not different pages on the same topic, let alone different pages on a different topic with the same name, as I've periodically seen. If someone comes to me and says "Would you compare Page X against the deleted version, and let me know if they're identical", I'll happily look into the situation and answer; sometimes this doesn't require admin rights, since a page with more than a few major edits has no chance of being a repost, but I'll always be happy to answer the question. I am not at all happy to see people abusing the criterion by tagging without a shred of evidence, as was done here (you might as well just tag a music article for A9 without checking to see whether the musician has an article), but if you're asking, I'll always be happy to help, whether it's "here's the answer" or "please glance at the article history; it's changed too much to be a repost". I would make some changes to the proposal, also: first, G4 is for everything, so it should refer to XFD not AFD. Non-admins sometimes can find deleted content; you can find pages on archive.org, and the last "you shouldn't have speedied this" objection I received came from someone who based his argument on a Google-cached version. Perhaps the proposal should say something like "for example through familiarity with the article prior to its deletion, or through viewing an archived version, or by virtue of in-article evidence such as maintenance tags that predate its creation." Nyttend (talk) 12:16, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  On the contrary, this would be a very bad addition. Nyttend's proposal undermines G4 whichever way it plays out.

Nominator leaves a note on Admin's talk page suggesting Article may be a G4 recreation. Admin investigates & confirms.

At this point what happens? Does Admin, knowing the article is a recreation, officiously confirm this to Nominator and insist that Nominator tags the article with a G4 notice, which Admin then responds to by deleting the article? A two step process has now become a five step process.

Or does Admin delete Article? A public, open process has now become a private deletion-on-request process which is prone to WP:ADMINSHOPping.

Far better that Admin accepts that, in the two-handed process which all CSD nominations are, the balance falls more heavily on the Admin than the Nominator when assessment of G4 is concerned.

So long as the material in the article still has the flaws mentioned in the AFD discussion which led to the original deletion G4 is appropriate. Only where the new article is obviously different to the article discussed in the AFD is any admonishment appropriate.

The guidance proposed fundamentally changes the nature of G4. For that reason, I oppose it. Cabayi (talk) 19:07, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• The specific example given (Draft:Jeffrey Guterman) was a draft tagged for G4 because an article on the subject was deleted in mainspace, which isn't an appropriate use of the criterion. Even if the content was identical to the deleted version it still likely wouldn't qualify for G4. If some content isn't considered suitable for mainspace then it's perfectly OK for someone to work on it in draftspace to bring it up to standards, and the wording of G4 says that drafts don't qualify for G4 unless the material was moved there in order to evade deletion. I don't think the suggested change is a good idea, I think a better course of action is for admins to be aware that non-admin taggers haven't got all the evidence in front of them. Hut 8.5 19:17, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fully agree, also with what Cabayi said above. Tagging for G4 basically means "I think this is a recreation, could you check please?" which is a good idea imho if done in good faith. After all, all taggings are merely a user asking for an admin to check whether the page meets a certain criterion and if so, act accordingly. Restricting non-admins in the proposed way makes NPP harder, not easier, without any real benefit. Regards SoWhy 19:26, 21 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could change the SD-G4 text to make it sound less certain. or even add a SD-G4? template to say the tagger thinks it might apply. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:52, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It already says "This page may meet Wikipedia's criteria for speedy deletion" (emphasis mine). No speedy deletion template is a definite claim, they are all potential. Whether a page meets the CSD or not is always ultimately decided by the admin working through CAT:CSD, not by the tagger. —Kusma (t·c) 08:50, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You must not tag a page for any sort of speedy if you can't provide evidence that it qualifies, and I'm routinely encountering tags that are placed with no evidence whatsoever. That's not good faith: it's recklessness at best and deception at worst. We need to make a firmer statement that this is inappropriate and give some examples of what a good-faith user does. Nyttend (talk) 12:56, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm as strict when it comes to speedy deletion as they come but even I think that's a too strict interpretation of policy. As Kusma points out, the speedy templates use the wording "may meet" since 2005, so I think it's pretty clear that the community has always considered tagging a request to check applicability of the speedy criteria. Regards SoWhy 13:11, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong: You must not tag a page for any sort of speedy unless you can't provide evidence for why you believe it qualifies. Evidence, in this case, is the link to the previous AfD. What is reckless is not non-admins tagging pages without definite proof (just based on the best of their knowledge), it is admins deleting tagged pages without checking the evidence and page history. —Kusma (t·c) 17:37, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do a lot of CSD tagging but G4 is essentially useless to a non-Admin as we can't check the deleted page and I perceive the stand to be "identical" to the deleted page based on Admin's actions when I tried to use G4 in the past. I've had too many Admins come down on me for alleged "incorrect tagging" even though my CSD accept track record is extremely high. Therefore I don't even use G4. I never see an Admin sanctioned for bad accepts or declines on CSDs yet I've seen Admins make such mistakes. This discussion shows there is a wide range of Admin opinion on how to treat G4 anyway. Legacypac (talk) 18:45, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I agree that there's a power differential here. The "substantially identical" wording applies to the admin making the deletion decision, not to the editor tagging it. Tagging a draft as G4 is already wrong, per the current wording of G4, but we shouldn't expect editors to compare articles to Deletionpedia before placing a G4 tag. Good faith on the part of the tagger should be enough; the admin has the tools, and the buck stops with them. Jclemens (talk) 19:40, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In my pre-admin days I sometimes applied G4 on the basis of archived copies of the deleted page. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:44, 22 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:C2

Hi, this page should mention WP:C2 (speedy rename), which is currently available only in a section of WP:CFD. 165.91.12.213 (talk) 03:15, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

CSD A7

Maybe explicitly state that fictional characters, organizations, etc. (besides hoaxes) do not qualify for A7? The same would also be true for A9. 165.91.13.204 (talk) 01:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

New criterion: C4

I’m proposing a new criterion for:

recently created categories that unambiguously duplicate the scope of an existing category and where all members unambiguously fail the inclusion criteria, are already in the other category, are themselves nominated for speedy deletion, or can be uncontroversially added to the other category.

Categories like these sometimes come up in WP:CfD, and this criterion could mitigate some of the trivial nominations. The case where addition to the category would be uncontroversial is called speedy merge. It would also be in line with WP:A10. I’m open to suggestions. 165.91.13.204 (talk) 01:22, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. This page, for the most part, is set in stone. I've been here for years and I bet if I made these changes without getting consensus, they'd be reverted by the very first admin who happened by. You're an ostensibly new user and you're trying to get a wide range of unprecedented changes via edit requests. Maybe instead, would you mind creating an account then starting a discussion here? CityOfSilver 06:18, 29 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've added C2; it's just a housekeeping note for an established thing, unlike tweaking the wording of existing criteria or adding a new criterion. Nyttend (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We're all familiar with "The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag from it." Of course, we don't apply this in 100% of cases; nobody will complain at you if you remove a U1 or G7 tag, in particular. But how do we apply it to files that have been tagged with delete-in-several-days tags if the problem has been resolved? For example, let's say I upload an own-work image with no license, so you tag it with {{nld}} and notify me, and I go and add a license. May I remove the tag, since the problem's been resolved, or must I leave it, since I'm the uploader? Whether in the intro or somewhere else, we ought to say something about such a situation; it's hardly an uncommon occurrence. Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 5 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This is mostly inspired by abuse of redirects from radio stations' "branding", but it applies in other areas too...

There are some redirects to radio station articles where the name of the redirect is the station's "branding". For example, WBZ-FM calls itself on-air 98.5 The Sports Hub. And there is a redirect to WBZ-FM from that name.

I propose that such redirects are inappropriate, much as the radio fan crowd loves to create them. Redirects are supposed to be a convenience for readers, but it is very unlikely that anybody is going to type "98.5 The Sports Hub" into the search box. Nor are these "common names" for the stations - I guarantee you that nobody in Boston goes around saying "I listen to 98.5 the sports hub", nor in my town do they say "I listen to Newsradio 600 KOGO". These "brands" appear only in the station's jingle package and on the sides of their vans.

Just about everybody outside the station's coverage area will be completely unfamiliar with the "brand", further reducing the utility of these redirects.

Worse, radio stations change their "branding" often. This results in a detritus of useless redirects. NewsRadio 99-1 redirects to WDCH-FM, but the actual article does not even mention the term "newsradio".

Not all "brands" are bad. It would be fine for, say, "Pontiac" to rd to "General Motors" (if it didn't already have its own article). But these very transient "brandings" are far less worthy. They are really nothing more than the station's most-often-repeated slogan. And we don't redirect from slogans. Do we?

I suggest a new CSD for redirects, "redirect from transient branding". Jeh (talk) 23:18, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't think this is a CSD case, it fails uncontestable and I think also fails objective. I can think of two radio stations near me which are known by branding like this, CHTN-FM "Ocean 100" and CKQK-FM "Hot 105.5" (neither have these sort of redirects, though). And I'd argue they are useful search terms (WP:RFD#K5). Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 23:33, 6 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree with Ivanvector; when I was in college, I worked at a place that played "Froggy [frequency]" on its sound system, and I wouldn't have had a clue how to look it up, except by searching for that branding or by looking at a directory of radio stations and checking the ones with similar frequencies. Some of these are trash, of course, but there's no way to determine trash-or-useful easily and reliably, so these ought not be deleted without discussion. Also, aside from really obvious stuff like transwikied pages or worthless portals, please remember that CSD is only for common occurrences; I doubt that problematic branding would be worth its own criterion, even if we could easily determine what did and didn't qualify. Nyttend (talk) 03:45, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In my sandbox, I used infobox country for the fictional country of Kekistan. My sandbox was later deleted for being a hoax. I am curious, if is there a consensus that hoaxes shouldn't be in sandboxes?SpanishSnake (talk) 01:36, 7 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There has recently been some back and forth about whether an editor needs to be established in order to remove a CSD tag from a page they did not create. The disputed text follows in context.

The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag from it. Only an editor who is not the creator of a page may do so. A creator who disagrees with the speedy deletion should instead click on the Contest this speedy deletion button that appears inside of the speedy deletion tag. This button links to the discussion page with a pre-formatted area for the creator to explain why the page should not be deleted. However, if the sole author blanks a page (other than a userspace page or category page), this can be taken as a deletion request, and the blank page tagged for deletion with {{Db-blanked}} (see G7). If an established editor other than the creator removes a speedy deletion tag, it should be taken as a sign that the deletion is not uncontroversial and another deletion process should be used.

Should the word established be used, and what should it mean in practice if it is?

Pinging those who have recently added or removed this text: @TonyBallioni: @Lourdes: @Patar knight: @Winged Blades of Godric:

Tazerdadog (talk) 17:46, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]