RFC: Alternatives to XFD for creations of banned or blocked users
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
![check](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/fb/Yes_check.svg/20px-Yes_check.svg.png)
- Accepted Wording:--
G5, creation by banned or blocked users, subject to the strict condition that the AfD participants were unaware that the article would have met G5 and/or that the article creator's blocked or banned status was not known to the participants of the AfD discussion.
- Details--
- By a count of heads, the proposal garnered 22 clear support !vote(s), 2 whose votes could not be definitely parsed into black and white and 12 oppose !votes .Given that all-most all the votes were more or less well grounded in different policies and appealing rationale(s), that seems to pass the threshold of enacting policy-changes.
- WP:BMB has formed the central axis of most of the arguments in favor of supporting the policy.Coupled with that, the enormous benefits of the proposed change to tackle paid-editing-farms etc were also heavily mentioned.
- Also, it may be noted that, while many mentioned a convinvcable modus operandi wherein paid editors can just AfD their own articles, use other socks to get it kept and use it as a line of protection against our current policies, no practical example(s) were put forward.
- On the side of the opposer(s), the most significant argument has been that
A CSD criteria should not overturn community consensus
irrespective of any reason and that CSD is solely aimed at non-controversial deletions. - Whilst, the point of the opposers forms the very backbone of the CSD process and could not be over-emphasized enough , a majority of the discussants were of the opinion that BMB must be executed very fiercely, esp. against paid editors and the like even at the cost of ignoring the opinion/consensus of the !voters in a part. discussion and despite certainty of some slight(??) collateral damage.
- Reminder--
- As always, the administrators are reminded to employ common sense in the entire process, to check the merits of keeping vs deleting the article (may-be upon the original cause of the ban) and use their discretionary authority judiciously.
- Signed by Winged Blades of GodricOn leave at 14:54, 7 October 2017 (UTC)
- Accepted Wording:--
As there appears to be some debate on the point, I call the question: Does the change described in this revision accurately represent the currently established policy?
CC Interested editors (Doc James—Bilby—Tavix—Legacypac—Kudpung) as people who have inserted/reverted this diff and a user who seems interested. Hasteur (talk) 12:18, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support yes I believe this accurately reflects long standing actual practice as confirmed in the recent discussion linked in the first change. I do not see this as any kind of policy change although perhaps at some past time Admins were less aggressive at deleting the creations of socks and banned users. Legacypac (talk) 12:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC) (edit conflict)
- Support This seems like a silly question to not support as this is the text of G5 itself. If while the XFD is progressing we discover the page is substantially the work of an editor who was subject to the a block or ban during the time of the creation we don't throw all our policies out the door. I would hope that the nominating user presents clear evidence showing how the user was supposed to be restricted and therefore why G5 is a slam dunk. I'd also expect the admin reviewing the G5 nomination to review and confirm the facts of the case. Hasteur (talk) 12:24, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) @Hasteur: If you want this to be an actual RFC, please follow the steps at WP:RFC, i.e. add
{{rfc|policy}}
to advertise the RFC.
- As for the question, I think the change is correct per WP:BMB because if you are banned, you are not allowed to edit, no matter how great your page is. However, this only applies in cases where the applicability of G5 was not known when the XFD was held. If people knew that the page was created by a banned user and they decided to keep it anyway, G5 does no longer apply. In practice, I can imagine few examples in which pages are still eligible for G5 after an XFD because usually in the course of such discussions substantial edits by others will have happened. Regards SoWhy 12:33, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BMB and the text of G5. -- Tavix (talk) 12:38, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support - I haven't actually inserted/reverted the diff, but I must admit I was sorely tempted to revert this one. However, with one admin already merrily editwarring I thought it best to stay out of the fray. Yes, the cited diff not only reflects what I believe most admins have assumed anyway, including me, but it also appears to be a bit of text that was missing due to simply not having been timely updated. Anyone who claims it shouldn't be there is, IMO, simply Wikilawyering and possibly exploiting the lacuna to defend their own convictions vis-à-vis articles by blocked/banned editors. And that would be counterproductive to our hundreds of hours working at COIN, DRV, and SPI. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk)
- If the most recent XFD has explicitly decided to keep a G5 eligible page and the participants in that XFD discussions were aware that it was G5 eligible then it should not be deleted. In cases where the discussion was unrelated to the ban, G5 applies. (I just realised this is basically what SoWhy just said). —Kusma (t·c) 12:45, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- No - the edit summary for that revision links to this discussion which covers one particular case in which G5 was used in this way and then endorsed by discussion. One-off cases don't make good tests of policy. Generally speaking, if a page has survived a deletion discussion, it has the endorsement of the community and so G5 no longer applies. Perhaps there should be a new criterion for deleting the contributions of editors who are later demonstrated to be undisclosed paid editors, but as far as I know there is no consensus yet that we should indiscriminately mass-delete UPE contribs. Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 12:50, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose I'm concerned about two issues. The first is that I haven't seen instances where this has been applied, so it isn't clear that there is a need for the change. Are there instances where pages would have met G5, were created by an editor banned at the time, but where there was a need to delete them in spite of an AfD? (I'm very aware of the current discussion - in that case, the pages did not meet G5 anyway, so it isn't a great example). For a page to qualify, it would have to have been created by a banned editor, gone to AfD, and have had no significant edits by other editors while at AfD. If this is meant to reflect practice, how often is this practice being performed? However, even if there is a need, CSD is meant to be a quick alternative to uncontroversial deletions where there is no risk that the community would disagree with the decision. If the article has survived AfD, then the community has already considered the article and deemed that it should be kept. Accordingly, the reasons we override the community's decisions on an AfD are limited to legal (copyright or office actions) and purely technical (such as dependent on deleted pages). This provision is neither. It seems better to respect the community's decision in these rare cases by sending it back to AfD, prodding the article, or using some other slightly longer but more transparent process than CSD. And if none of those are suitable, and it absolutely and uncontroversially should be deleted, rely on an one-off exception under IAR.- Bilby (talk) 13:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support as the paid editing issue is a distraction here, as I mentioned at the DRV. It involves WP:BMB and the fact that as described at the deletion review, nominating your own articles for AfD could easily become a loophole to exploit here. TonyBallioni (talk) 14:06, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - the purpose of a ban is to state categorically that it is not worth the community's time to review that editor's work because it is very unlikely to be acceptable. However, once the community has (perhaps unwisely) spent the time to review the work and found it acceptable, it would be backwards to delete it unless there is an actual problem with it. Tazerdadog (talk) 15:41, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Clabby_Forest_-_geograph.org.uk_-_303808.jpg/220px-Clabby_Forest_-_geograph.org.uk_-_303808.jpg)
- So if I circumvent my ban, create something good and the community (unwittingly!) keeps it at XFD, it should be kept even if it was in violation of the ban and the banning policy says "all edits by banned users are forbidden, no matter how good"? Regards SoWhy 15:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. That material improved Wikipedia, even if it was forbidden. The banning policy states that you shouldn't have made the edit in the first place, but deleting good material makes Wikipedia worse. However, if you want to quote fragments of that policy at each other, it also says that "obviously helpful changes ... can be allowed to stand". Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- What I find troubling about the line of reasoning here, is that we have all seen AfDs happen where people show up, glance at the article, do a google search, say "lots of potential references" and !vote keep, saying that the topic is notable in theory. AfD is not cleanup.
- This is about cleanup. This is about dealing with the page that actually exists, and is about carting away industrial waste that has been dumped into Wikipedia; it says nothing about whether the topic is notable or if a decent article could be generated.Jytdog (talk) 19:11, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Believe it or not, I actually understand you position and at one time I actually supported it as well. And for non-banned users I still do because the goal should indeed be to create a better encyclopedia if possible. However, while keeping such material might be achieving this goal in the short run, the encouragement for such editors to ignore bans will hurt the project in the long run. Regards SoWhy 20:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ultimately it comes down to a balancing act between the damage done by deleting an acceptable article and the damage done by weakening our banning policy. I believe that the proper venue for weighing these factors is a XfD discussion, not CSD. On a different note, Cabayi's and Hut8.5's positions below seem to be a workable compromise for this issue, that I can support as a second choice. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- True and good point, however, won't any keeping of such an article not embolden other banned users? As for the last part, I think what Cabayi and Hut8.5 are saying (and what Kusma and I said above as well) is what most supporters of this proposal are agreeing with. Of course G5 - like any speedy criterion - does not apply if the possibility was discussed and explicitly rejected. This proposal is as far as I understand it only for cases where the eligibility for G5 was not known at the time of the XFD. Regards SoWhy 06:05, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- As a matter of interest, could this situation actually arise? If it is discovered before AfD, the article will be killed under G5. If it is discovered after, the commentators in the AfD couldn't have known anyway. So the only possibility is that it is discovered during, but in those cases we normally just speedy close the AfD and delete under G5 anyway. I suppose a really, really intense discussion would possibly be kept open even if the banned editor was found during it, but they always result in substantial changes to the article if things are that intense. - Bilby (talk) 09:42, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- True and good point, however, won't any keeping of such an article not embolden other banned users? As for the last part, I think what Cabayi and Hut8.5 are saying (and what Kusma and I said above as well) is what most supporters of this proposal are agreeing with. Of course G5 - like any speedy criterion - does not apply if the possibility was discussed and explicitly rejected. This proposal is as far as I understand it only for cases where the eligibility for G5 was not known at the time of the XFD. Regards SoWhy 06:05, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Ultimately it comes down to a balancing act between the damage done by deleting an acceptable article and the damage done by weakening our banning policy. I believe that the proper venue for weighing these factors is a XfD discussion, not CSD. On a different note, Cabayi's and Hut8.5's positions below seem to be a workable compromise for this issue, that I can support as a second choice. Tazerdadog (talk) 23:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Believe it or not, I actually understand you position and at one time I actually supported it as well. And for non-banned users I still do because the goal should indeed be to create a better encyclopedia if possible. However, while keeping such material might be achieving this goal in the short run, the encouragement for such editors to ignore bans will hurt the project in the long run. Regards SoWhy 20:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes. That material improved Wikipedia, even if it was forbidden. The banning policy states that you shouldn't have made the edit in the first place, but deleting good material makes Wikipedia worse. However, if you want to quote fragments of that policy at each other, it also says that "obviously helpful changes ... can be allowed to stand". Cheers, Tazerdadog (talk) 17:55, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- So if I circumvent my ban, create something good and the community (unwittingly!) keeps it at XFD, it should be kept even if it was in violation of the ban and the banning policy says "all edits by banned users are forbidden, no matter how good"? Regards SoWhy 15:53, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support except where the block was known & mentioned prominently in the deletion discussion BEFORE the bulk of the keep !votes - as already specified by SoWhy & Kusma. Cabayi (talk) 15:59, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support if the article creator's status was not known to the participants of the AfD discussion, oppose otherwise. If the creator is revealed as a sockpuppet of a banned user after the AfD then we are in basically the same situation as with newly discovered copyright violations, as new information proves the page qualifies for speedy deletion. Edits by banned users can be kept if adopted by other people but the fact a page survived but an AfD doesn't mean that has happened. Hut 8.5 18:46, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Comment if I had a promotional sockfarm I'd have one of my socks nominate my facorate page for deletion with a really poorly written nom, then vote with my other socks, along with unwitting editors fooled by my bad nomination, to keep it. Far fetched? I bet this happens every week. Legacypac (talk) 19:08, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- This is an impossible scenario. Most articles created by paid editors are borderline notable at best. Nominating them for AfD is a quick method of loosing your clients. It is far better for them to act as they do now and just stay under the radar. The vast majority of paid editing is never noticed. - Bilby (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Not impossible at all. Most AfDs get very low participation. All you need is one sock to nominate and the creator and another one or two to vote keep. This would protect pretty well against future AfDs for once Kept at AfD the page is unlikely to be AfD'd again and many voters just say keep or make procedural objections that it was recent kept before. The paid editors are far more modivated than us and it took me seconds to come up with this scenario. Legacypac (talk) 06:24, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- It isn't viable. By nominated an article you were paid to create you have two outcomes - one is that it is kept, which would save it from G5 if you are identified as a banned editor. However, it would still risk being deleted via something other than G5 - such as being renominated for AfD, prodded, or killed under IAR. However, if you fail, not only do you see the article deleted, but you can't recreate it as it would fall under G4. In which case you need to explain to your client that not only did you fail to keep the article, but you made it that much harder for them to create a new one. Try and recreate it anyway, and you are at risk of salting for repeated recreation. Alternatively, just do what they always do - throw away the account, don't draw any attention to yourself, and hope the article survives for a couple of days so you get paid and get the positive review. After that, who cares? You've been paid, and if it is deleted you just blame it on those evil Wikipedia admins. - 07:36, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Not impossible at all. Most AfDs get very low participation. All you need is one sock to nominate and the creator and another one or two to vote keep. This would protect pretty well against future AfDs for once Kept at AfD the page is unlikely to be AfD'd again and many voters just say keep or make procedural objections that it was recent kept before. The paid editors are far more modivated than us and it took me seconds to come up with this scenario. Legacypac (talk) 06:24, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- This is an impossible scenario. Most articles created by paid editors are borderline notable at best. Nominating them for AfD is a quick method of loosing your clients. It is far better for them to act as they do now and just stay under the radar. The vast majority of paid editing is never noticed. - Bilby (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support. Banned or blocked users (or paid socks) will find ways to get their articles into Wikipedia after they are banned. We can close the loop hole rather than continue to argue about this. See WP:BMB. If banned editors create good material that is no excuse to get around a ban or keep the article. Others can also create good material without the radioactive waste being unloaded into Wikipedia. QuackGuru (talk) 20:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support It is a good thing to clean up industrial waste that has been dumped into Wikipedia. Jytdog (talk) 20:09, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Strong support Without it we leave a large loop hole. Paid editors can just AfD their own articles, use other socks to get it kept, and than if they are someday discovered the article is "protected". Agree with User:Cabayi Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Has this ever occurred? - Bilby (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Responding to both of your questions... according to one source in the Orangemoody article, on at least some occasions they would nominate the article for deletion themselves, then extort the article subject, and then come here argue to "save" it with other socks. And who ever would have thought anyone could be that devious on such a scale? The floor has fallen off what paid editors might do to make money off WP. Jytdog (talk) 01:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- That wasn't nominating articles in order to protect them from deletion. The rather over the top claim being made here is that paid editors will nominate what in almost all cases is a borderline-notable article in order to protect it, with the additional claim that this is may well happen every week. I don't mind if people want to support the proposal, but I wish the scenarios remained realistic. Nominating an article for AfD is far too risky a move to be a viable means of protecting it. - Bilby (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Tell that to orangemoody! They apparently found it a profitable enough strategy. I do agree with you, that the risk of this risk of this becoming a widespread way to game the system seems pretty low... but on the other hand who would have thought that black hat paid editing of Wikipedia would become such a viable marketplace that it gets written up in Time] and elsewhere? This is like taxes -- throw up a barrier and people are motivated to find a loophole. So it is worth closing it. Jytdog (talk) 05:41, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- It needs to be a viable loophole before it is worth considering - Orangemoody was using AfDs as a threat, not as a means of protecting articles. I just get a tad frustrated when people throw up near-impossible scenarios without any evidence that they've ever occurred as justification for more restrictive rules. We need to avoid falling too far into a bureaucracy, and sometimes the best solution is just to keep things as they are with an IAR out if it is really needed. - Bilby (talk) 05:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I am baffled by what you are writing. Orangemoody wanted to get paid for saving articles. Payday is saving articles from AfD - they actually nominated some. (Am I getting that wrong, or are you missing that?) Yes it is risky. Jytdog (talk) 08:38, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Your description of Orangemoody's actions was that the articles were nominated for AfD in order to force subjects to pay so that he save it. However, the scenario being put forward here is banned editors nominating articles for deletion in order to protect the articles from being deleted under G5. They seem like two different situations. Either way, both would be incredibly rare, and I have never seen any evidence of a paid editor nominating an article they created for AfD in order to protect it, nor do I suspect has anyone else. The Orangemoody situation was a good case for using IAR, the lack of any other similar situations shows why we don't need to specifically allow for the faint possibility that they might one day occur.
- The rhetoric around paid editing has become bad enough that we need to stay at least a little grounded when we look at the issues. - Bilby (talk) 09:19, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I appreciate your desire to keep the community grounded on this. I know you are view undisclosed paid editing as a serious thing; you were on of the first admins I saw indef somebody on their own authority for violating PAID and directly adding a lot of bad promotional content to WP. I went and looked at some point and you have done that three times.
- We trust admins to prevent our community norms and processes from becoming a suicide pact. This gives discretion to admins to clean up these tires dumped in the forest. You may view the "industrial polluter" metaphor as overblown rhetoric but to me that is exactly what almost all UPE is - exploiting our openness to dump industrial waste here, that has nothing to do with the mission. (I write about that a bit on my userpage here if you have a minute). We do end up with these ugly piles of content created by serial SOCKers like the case that sparked this. We need admins to be able to use the mop to clean them up, lest the community spend yet more time in laborious processes when we could all be doing constructive stuff instead. Jytdog (talk) 17:03, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, I clearly said that wrong. I have no problem with your view of paid editors and wasn't complaining about that. My problem is with people ascribing greater and more serious activities to paid editors, stretching the definition of paid editing, and overstating the extent of activities without evidence. How people feel about it is absolutely fine, and how they describe their feelings is absolutely fine, and not a concern at all - I have strong feelings about it as well, so why should I object to other people feeling similarly? This isn't the place for the wider discussion, but my concern is that I'm seeing people move further and further away from policy in how they act against paid editors, and as there are so few people working in the area, there is little effective oversight that can keep anti-paid editing activities within policy. - Bilby (talk) 23:01, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I am baffled by what you are writing. Orangemoody wanted to get paid for saving articles. Payday is saving articles from AfD - they actually nominated some. (Am I getting that wrong, or are you missing that?) Yes it is risky. Jytdog (talk) 08:38, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- It needs to be a viable loophole before it is worth considering - Orangemoody was using AfDs as a threat, not as a means of protecting articles. I just get a tad frustrated when people throw up near-impossible scenarios without any evidence that they've ever occurred as justification for more restrictive rules. We need to avoid falling too far into a bureaucracy, and sometimes the best solution is just to keep things as they are with an IAR out if it is really needed. - Bilby (talk) 05:46, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Tell that to orangemoody! They apparently found it a profitable enough strategy. I do agree with you, that the risk of this risk of this becoming a widespread way to game the system seems pretty low... but on the other hand who would have thought that black hat paid editing of Wikipedia would become such a viable marketplace that it gets written up in Time] and elsewhere? This is like taxes -- throw up a barrier and people are motivated to find a loophole. So it is worth closing it. Jytdog (talk) 05:41, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- That wasn't nominating articles in order to protect them from deletion. The rather over the top claim being made here is that paid editors will nominate what in almost all cases is a borderline-notable article in order to protect it, with the additional claim that this is may well happen every week. I don't mind if people want to support the proposal, but I wish the scenarios remained realistic. Nominating an article for AfD is far too risky a move to be a viable means of protecting it. - Bilby (talk) 01:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Responding to both of your questions... according to one source in the Orangemoody article, on at least some occasions they would nominate the article for deletion themselves, then extort the article subject, and then come here argue to "save" it with other socks. And who ever would have thought anyone could be that devious on such a scale? The floor has fallen off what paid editors might do to make money off WP. Jytdog (talk) 01:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Has this ever occurred? - Bilby (talk) 22:35, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Mu This is a nonsensical change, because nothing that is ever AfD'ed will have had "... no substantial edits by others." If the author AfD'ed something itself, G6 would have applied. If another editor placed an AfD template, that by itself is a substantial edit, leaving alone that in the process of an article being kept, there are typically many other substantial edits to the page being AfD'ed. Jclemens (talk) 04:28, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Is placing a maintenance template really a "substantial" edit? After all, once the AFD is closed, the template will be removed and nothing will have changed. And it's not unheard for an article to come through AFD the same way it went in with no changes made by others. Of course, if people edit the article during the AFD to keep it, then G5 no longer applies. Regards SoWhy 06:09, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I suppose one could define 'substantial edit' as a term of art to exclude templates, but I would call nominating something for AfD pretty substantial. But so far, no one appears to be engaging with the restrictive nature of G5, in that if ONE good faith editor makes ONE substantial contribution, G5 is off the table anyways. Well, until the next time someone decides that eliminating a UPE product demands that Wikipedia's safeguards be eliminated for the sake of efficiency... Jclemens (talk) 06:17, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Is placing a maintenance template really a "substantial" edit? After all, once the AFD is closed, the template will be removed and nothing will have changed. And it's not unheard for an article to come through AFD the same way it went in with no changes made by others. Of course, if people edit the article during the AFD to keep it, then G5 no longer applies. Regards SoWhy 06:09, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Saint_Paul_and_the_burning_of_pagan_books_at_Ephesus.png/220px-Saint_Paul_and_the_burning_of_pagan_books_at_Ephesus.png)
- Oppose This should be for non-controversial deletions. If an article has survived an AfD, then that cannot be the case. I realise that a deleted page can be re-created, but I am very reluctant to do so, as it goes against consensus. G5 is completely anomalous on this list. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 07:02, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Comment How bout we move them to a holding pen, perhaps in a distinct namespace? in order to allow them to be fundamentally rewritten, and remove the socking editor's name from the history. It gets rewritten on a new page, peer reviewed (perhaps, if that's necessary), moved to articlespace, and the original then G5'd. That would seem to square the circle- we get to keep any good works the sock might have done, whilst equally denying all recognition to the part they played in its creation. Slightly 1984 perhaps, but-. — fortunavelut luna 07:35, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately that is contrary to the CC BY-SA and GFDL licenses, which require every contribution to be attributed. Only if the article gets fully rewritten from scratch so that it is not derivative could you remove attribution, but then you don't need the original article for that. Diego (talk) 08:54, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- But the original article might give sources and other meta information. On the legal side of things one might argue that they would need to sue first and uncover their identity. Agathoclea (talk) 09:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- There is already a great holding pen for all these articles and it is deletionpedia. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:09, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- But the original article might give sources and other meta information. On the legal side of things one might argue that they would need to sue first and uncover their identity. Agathoclea (talk) 09:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Unfortunately that is contrary to the CC BY-SA and GFDL licenses, which require every contribution to be attributed. Only if the article gets fully rewritten from scratch so that it is not derivative could you remove attribution, but then you don't need the original article for that. Diego (talk) 08:54, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support with the proviso that there is an exemption if at the time of the AFD the fact of such article creation by a banned user was known Agathoclea (talk) 09:34, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support It's a very small procedural change and I regret that so much volunteer time has to be spent on it. I assume, though not explicitly covered by the change, that it would also help avoid situations where, when a large G5-eligible sockfarm is detected, the articles at AfD at the time of detection are somehow exempt and survive longer than the rest of the lot (examples [1], [2]), despite being probably the worst. Rentier (talk) 09:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support WP:BMB is at odds with G5 so there is a problem; if they are making good enough content, why not declare properly. jcc (tea and biscuits) 11:29, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BMB. ~ Rob13Talk 21:54, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support per WP:BMB Smallbones(smalltalk)
- This is complicated. It has a history and a context, and I suggest that participants here should read Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2017 September 3. The community needs a more effective means of dealing with prolific promotional sockfarms but I'm not sure expanding G5 is the best way to do it because that could have unintended side effects. I'd prefer to leave G5 as it is and enact X3: Cleanup of articles started by checkuser-confirmed prolific sockfarms. But what isn't an option is to do nothing. If surviving AfD makes a sockfarm-created article immune to G5, then what we're actually doing is creating an incentive for sockfarms to AfD their own articles with one hand and then !vote keep with their others.—S Marshall T/C 18:08, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yes it accurately represents the currently established policy that "an editor who is site-banned is forbidden from making any edit, anywhere on Wikipedia, via any account or as an unregistered user, under any and all circumstances." Negating a ban by allowing contributions of banned editors to remain on the ground that they improve an article short-term encourages further abuse. Such abuse causes substantial long-term damage to the project and wastes resources that are better allocated elsewhere. Mduvekot (talk) 19:10, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
- Strong oppose. I completely understand the frustration over sockpuppets and paid editing farms, but (assuming the XFD process was not affected by any socking), G5 is no reason to override the decision to keep an AFD. If the community says the subject should stay, then it shouldn't matter who wrote it. Sro23 (talk) 13:05, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- In the cases that triggered this the socks in question were involved in the XFD process. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:07, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- And socks are often involved in XfD, sometimes very obviously and sometimes harder to spot. Legacypac (talk) 17:14, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as this would bypass the community consensus that was established at the given AfD in a way that doesn't happen with the other exemptions (except for G12, but then complying with copyright legislation is much more important as a countering factor than is the merit of enforcing the letter of one particular aspect of the ban policy). In practical terms, there are a variety of reasons that users get banned for, and the best course of action would be different in each case and most of the time deletion isn't needed anyway - for example, if the user was banned for behavioural reasons then this has no bearing on their content creation (and deleting the content just to enforce BMB is tantamount to cutting off the nose to spite the face), and if the user was known for contributing unreliable content, then that content can simply be edited away. However, I acknowledge that there is the problem of banned users creating articles on non-notable topics and then socking the AfD, and there has to be some solution in this case: I would support allowing the use of G5 on the condition that all the keep !votes in the AfD were made by socks of the banned user. – Uanfala 12:13, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- We do not have a good ability to detect socks. CU is not pixie dust unfortunately. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:02, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- There's no silver bullet for detecting socks (and CU is, and should be, used only in a minority of SPIs), but in practice most of the time it's pretty clear if the participants in a given discussions are socks. And in the borderline cases, a second AfD is always an option. To restate my previous point more succinctly, if established editors have reached consensus that an article should be kept, then we shouldn't create loopholes to bypass it. Respecting community consensus is more fundamentally important to the project than the literal enforcement of an aspect of the ban policy. – Uanfala 11:05, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
- We do not have a good ability to detect socks. CU is not pixie dust unfortunately. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:02, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support -- with the exception that if the AfD specifically considered whether the ed. was banned and decided not to delete it , then a speedy on the same grounds would be against the prior consensus. My support is rather reluctant, because this is a problem for which there is no good solution--any way of handling it has its disadvantages. At this point we are under so much pressure from undeclared paid editing that we need to try this. It might work better. DGG ( talk ) 03:12, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support We need to be clearer about deleting paid edits — implementing this proposal would be of major help. Carl Fredrik talk 14:33, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- Strongest possible oppose. G5 is only for pages with no significant involvement by other editors; barring an AFD that gets closed as "no consensus" because nobody showed up, there's always significant involvement by one or more editors in keeping the article. Aside from copyright infringements and office actions (required for legal reasons), it's never for overturning the result of an AFD; the "normal" exceptions are all for things that are housekeeping to some extent. Moreover, if you read down a couple of lines, you'll see the following: These criteria may only be used in such cases when no controversy exists; in the event of a dispute, start a new deletion discussion. Hint: if the article's been kept at AFD, controversy is going to exist. If this gets enacted, this section is going to contradict itself — you couldn't ask for a more fruitful place for breeding disputes. Nyttend (talk) 00:38, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose, with note - A CSD criteria should not overturn community consensus (like that which happens in an AfD). I do think, although, that when the banned/blocked status of the creator is discovered, that there should be another AfD, with a note that the creator is banned/blocked, so that a new consensus can be established. Also, closers of AfDs should take notice of the age of the accounts; if all of the accounts are below autoconfirmed status, then the AfD should probably not be closed. This would help prevent most socks from taking advantage of this "loophole". RileyBugz会話投稿記録 00:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. If a page has survived an AfD then there is consensus that it should exist, and almost certainly has non-trivial contributions by editors other than the original creator and their work should not be deleted without further discussion. Per RileyBugz, the newly discovered status of the creator would be grounds for another AfD if anyone desired it though. Thryduulf (talk) 22:25, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Depends what they were banned or blocked for. If it was for repeated underhand behaviour in articles, like sneaky vandalism and hoaxes, or referring to fictitious sources or misrepresenting sources, then any further articles by them would be under great suspicion despite having survived AFD and should be eligible for G5. If it was because they couldn't control their argumentative tendencies in discussions, then that doesn't necessarily reflect on their articles, which should be considered on their merits: Noyster (talk), 08:38, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
- Support Admins have to use judgment when deleting a page so there should be no concern that a great article with significant contributions from other editors will be deleted. Deletion review is always available. WP:DENY is the only tool available to deal with persistent problematic editors and this change would assist that. Johnuniq (talk) 03:03, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. It sounds a lot like a reaffirmation of G5, but it has too much appearance of allowing admins to ignore community consensus at AfD. Appearance, not necessarily reality, but appearance matters. A better solution, where an AfD was closed as keep/no concensus, and subsequently it is discovered that the creator and all major authors were banned, there being no mention of it at AfD, then the thing to do is to ask the closing admin to re-open the AfD. If it was a NAC, any admin may re-open. If the admin is now inactive, any admin may re-open. The participants of that AfD must be notified. I fear that this is leading to broad discretion to G5 pages retrospectively, delete articles written by later banned editors, especially by editors later banned due to TermsOfUse violations (undisclosed paid editing), and while these deletions are generally a good thing, it is not a good thing for it to be done not-openly. AfD should be used. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:48, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per RileyBugz, Noyster, SmokeyJoe for overbreadth. CSD shouldn't trump a community discussion where there was consensus to keep and where there was a presumably reasonable level of due diligence in examining the article. The appropriate role would be to start a new XFD and note the situation, especially if the issues with the ban/block were about their article content. This would help ensure that the article gets proper scrutiny in light of the new information. An exception would be say the user was blocked for making hard to detect hoaxes, and a diligent search by the admin found that it was a hoax (in which case a dual G5, G3 rationale could work), or other edge cases. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 15:18, 23 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the "per" but I'm not sure it was merited here. My view is that we shouldn't be tasked to do "diligent searches" on the further productions of editors who have already demonstrated their ill-intent, and are presumably now socking into the bargain. And AfD isn't a grand jury and can be determined by just a couple of "keep" votes from unknown sources: Noyster (talk), 08:31, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
- My per was to acknowledge your correct statement that G5 deletions, especially for pages that have survived and XfD, are very context dependent, which isn't the case for the other provisions in that section. Someone could have been topic banned from X and blocked at the same time because they created sub-par, non-notable X articles (or as you say, were angry in discussions about X articles). If they then create an acceptable, article on a notable X subject kept in good faith at AfD, by a strict application of G5, it could be speedied once the socking was discovered. This RFC was opened to !vote on whether the change in the linked edit at the top of the RFC, and without any additional context, I have to !vote to oppose it. ---- Patar knight - chat/contributions 05:34, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- Thank you for the "per" but I'm not sure it was merited here. My view is that we shouldn't be tasked to do "diligent searches" on the further productions of editors who have already demonstrated their ill-intent, and are presumably now socking into the bargain. And AfD isn't a grand jury and can be determined by just a couple of "keep" votes from unknown sources: Noyster (talk), 08:31, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
Deletions are superflous
Why not just blank page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.21.56.82 (talk) 07:35, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- Because even if we did so and the page was protected to prevent a revert to the last version, the page's history would still exist and viewable by everyone. The better question would be: Why keep pages that don't belong here? Regards SoWhy 07:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
- This has been proposed previously, see Wikipedia:Pure wiki deletion system. But it failed to get accepted. – Uanfala 09:39, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
Clatification for G5
"To qualify, the edit must be a violation of the user's specific block or ban. Pages created by a topic-banned user may be deleted if they come under that particular topic, but not if they are legitimately about some other topic." Does that mean that in the absence of a specific ban or block that would prevent an editor from creating an article on said specific topic, article created by blocked/banned editors who have no specific topic bans cannot be deleted under G5? In other words, if an editor has been let's say permbanned from Wikipedia for some random disruptive behavior but has no topic bans, and then their sock creates an article on some random topic - is G5 applicable or not? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:33, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
the edit must be a violation of the user's specific block or ban
. If their specific block or ban is being indef blocked or banned from editing en.wiki at all, they're violating their ban by socking to create new articles, so anything their sock creates can be G5'd. It checks out fine as written. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:36, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- To answer your specific question: yes. If a community banned or indeffed user who creates an article or other page, that article or page is subject to G5 assuming the other conditions are met. This is because of WP:BMB. TonyBallioni (talk) 16:59, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
- What purpose is served by deleting perfectly good, well-written articles? Doing so amounts to nothing more than vandalism by consensus. It's also worth noting that the language is permissive ("may") and does not create a requirement ("shall"), which many admins and other users fail to grasp. Simply put, if a deletion is controversial, it shouldn't be speedied. And deleting a perfectly good article for no reason other than who created it is certainly controversial. G5 needs to be scrapped entirely IMO, or at least amended to allow restoration of G5 articles upon request of an unblocked (or perhaps autoconfirmed, to make sure they're not another sock) user, like we do for PRODs. Smartyllama (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
New criterion - T4, aka Template PROD
I've been mulling this one over for a while now. One stalled discussion in January made me pause, but it's been mentioned to me a few times (most recently by Nihlus) and I think I'm going to put the question to rest.
At current we have no PROD-like system for Templates. We (obviously) have PROD for articles and F11 for images, but no way to quietly delete an unused template other than to clog up WP:TFD with nominations that almost everyone will !vote "delete" on.
I propose a new criterion, T4: If template is unused and shows no likelihood of being used, the item may be deleted seven days after notification of the creator.
Templates deleted under this criterion would be refundable just like PRODs. This keeps some of the clutter out of TFD, still allows the creator to protest the nomination, and avoids gaming the system (one of my main issues that brought on the January discussion was the fact that users were nominating under G6 and G8 for unused templates).
Thoughts? Primefac (talk) 02:47, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support – Looks like you beat me to the punch, so it stands to reason that I completely support this. My drafted wording was:
Templates that are unused–that is, are not transcluded in any pages, are not being actively substituted, are not used as a preload for another template, and are not used in any editnotice–may be deleted after being tagged for seven days.
In addition, I was going through and gathering data on any TfD that used the "unused" argument. None of them were kept, and all but one was deleted. One resulted in no consensus. Nihlus 02:58, 5 October 2017 (UTC)- I like your wording better, though I think the
after notification of the creator
bit needs to stay in. Primefac (talk) 12:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)- Let's try:
Templates that are unused–that is, are not transcluded in any pages, are not being actively substituted, are not used as a preload for another template, and are not used in any editnotice–may be deleted seven days after notifying the creator and being tagged.
- Gets a little wordy but gets the point across. Nihlus 12:37, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Let's try:
- I like your wording better, though I think the
- So just add templates to the list of things that can be prodded? Why is this here? -- Tavix (talk) 03:01, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Tavix: See the wording of T3. Nihlus 03:08, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- So add templates to the list of things that can be PRODed and we won’t need T3 either... That would help a lot more than adding another criterion, and it’d simplify the system too. -- Tavix (talk) 03:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- A PROD is a very vague "I don't expect issues" deletion. One could (in theory) set a prod tag on a sidebar or infobox that is in use with a perfectly valid rationale and it very well could be deleted. The point of this criteria is specifically for unused/never-going-to-be-used templates. Of course if a consensus develops to modify the wording of PROD, then that's what we'd go with, but I was looking for something a bit more specific. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- A PROD is simply for uncontroversial deletions, which seems to be your objective with the criterion (ie: to reduce the load at TfD). Adding templates to PROD would solve that issue, without muddying the waters further between PROD and CSD. -- Tavix (talk) 21:41, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- A PROD is a very vague "I don't expect issues" deletion. One could (in theory) set a prod tag on a sidebar or infobox that is in use with a perfectly valid rationale and it very well could be deleted. The point of this criteria is specifically for unused/never-going-to-be-used templates. Of course if a consensus develops to modify the wording of PROD, then that's what we'd go with, but I was looking for something a bit more specific. Primefac (talk) 11:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- So add templates to the list of things that can be PRODed and we won’t need T3 either... That would help a lot more than adding another criterion, and it’d simplify the system too. -- Tavix (talk) 03:12, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Since F4 to F7 and C1 have a seven-day horizon, in addition to F11 and T3 already mentioned, it seems too late to achieve a clean separation between PROD-like processes and true speedy deletion: Noyster (talk), 12:10, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Tavix: See the wording of T3. Nihlus 03:08, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support so as to help free TfD of discussions with 10+ days between relistings. J947(c) (m) 03:04, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Question: How can you tell whether a template is being actively substituted? Doesn't substitution remove backlinks to the template? Regards SoWhy 12:25, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: {{Substonly}} should be transcluded on the documentation page. ~ Rob13Talk 12:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- This relies on the documentation being done correctly, which is not necessarily true. —Kusma (t·c) 12:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Which is fine, because we give notice to the creator and a 7-day hold. If they're actively using their poorly-documented template, they can just remove the PROD. From experience, the vast majority of orphaned templates are not substitute only, and if they are, the majority of those are documented. The rest are usually pretty obviously substitute only. We then have to consider the trade-off between maybe having to undelete 5 templates that should have been documented better versus literally thousands of useless TfD discussions that require closers we don't have. The choice is pretty obvious. ~ Rob13Talk 12:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) I understand that but Nihlus' suggestion is to exempt templates that are
not being actively substituted
, so does that mean to exempt templates that have the {{Substonly}} tag on it (no matter if they are still used or not) or to exempt templates that are still being substituted? And if it's the latter, how can you tell? Regards SoWhy 13:02, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- This relies on the documentation being done correctly, which is not necessarily true. —Kusma (t·c) 12:41, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- @SoWhy: {{Substonly}} should be transcluded on the documentation page. ~ Rob13Talk 12:33, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support per my comment above. ~ Rob13Talk 12:51, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
- Only if... Ideally, PROD shouldn't be used for templates for the simple reason it's not used for redirects: they don't have enough watchers. In practice, however, I don't think this is going to lead to less scrutiny in the deletion of templates, given the low participation at TfD and its overall bias for deletion (e.g. a discussion consisting only of the nomination and a comment expressing doubts about the validity of the nominator's rationale, is as likely to be closed as "delete" as it is to get relisted or closed as "no consensus"). If a PROD-like process gets adopted, then it should have two explicit requirements: 1) The nominator should have made the effort to notify interested parties. Minimally, this should involve notifying the creator as well as a relevant wikiproject (for example by project-tagging the template's talk page, provided the wikiproject is active and subscribed to the article alerts). 2) An explicit check for substitutions must have been made by either the nominator or the deleting admin. This check is important for two reasons: a) most of the regular TfD nominators so far don't seem to have had the habit of checking for substitutions and that burden has traditionally been with the participants in the discussion (and no, the template's documentation is not enough: hardly any of the subst-only templates that get nominated as "unused" are documented as being subst-only); b) a check for substitutions will be able to pick the occasional case where template content has been merged into an article (or another template) and its history will need to be preserved for attribution. – Uanfala 10:24, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- If projects want to keep track of their templates, they must tag them themselves. We cannot be responsible for knowing every WikiProject out there; such a requirement is crazy. ~ Rob13Talk 10:38, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Crazy would be to expect projects to keep track of stuff they have no way of know of knowing it exists. Projects can come into the picture only once a page has been tagged. – Uanfala 10:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Uanfala, which project should be notified for e.g. Template:AFv5 hidden, or Template:Acd (now up for deletion), or Template:Agent? Fram (talk) 11:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- In the few cases when there are no relevant projects, then no projects should be notified. Aren't we supposed to use common sense when applying the rules? – Uanfala 11:12, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Incidentally, Template:AFv5 hidden is within the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings, and Template:Agent is relevant for Wikipedia:WikiProject Infoboxes (I don't know how active these are). Of course, it can be argued that if there's no way to make a nomination noticed by wikiprojects (or by other interested editors), then TfD should be the way to nominate the template for deletion. – Uanfala 11:22, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not going to search around if there is perhaps some project which may or may not be related to a template created years before and never used. Rules making it harder to do simple maintenance, without a clear benefit, should not be imposed, as we are not a bureaucracy. Fram (talk) 11:31, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Uanfala, which project should be notified for e.g. Template:AFv5 hidden, or Template:Acd (now up for deletion), or Template:Agent? Fram (talk) 11:07, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Crazy would be to expect projects to keep track of stuff they have no way of know of knowing it exists. Projects can come into the picture only once a page has been tagged. – Uanfala 10:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Projects interested in monitoring certain templates should use the WP:Article alerts system. --Izno (talk) 12:51, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- If projects want to keep track of their templates, they must tag them themselves. We cannot be responsible for knowing every WikiProject out there; such a requirement is crazy. ~ Rob13Talk 10:38, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support with no requirement to notify some morbid wikiproject about some template no one is using. Lighten the kiad at TfD. Legacypac (talk) 20:50, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose unless there is are explicit requirements that: (1) the nominator and deleting admin both check for templates being actively substituted, and (2) all substantial editors to the template (not just the creator) are notified, and (3) all projects that have tagged the template and/or are clearly relevant are notified. Article alerts are not enough imo and alerting inactive projects is not a burden. I don't expect nominators to do a deep search of all potentially relevant projects, but if a template is related to e.g. a geographical place then the project for that country should be notified even if they haven't tagged it, similarly anything that gives a warning to editors is relevant to Wikipedia:WikiProject User warnings even if they have never heard of it before. Thryduulf (talk) 11:34, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as proposed. The opinion about a template's likelihood of being used can vary from editor to editor. That, and unfortunately, we have no way to determine substitution counts to validate how useful a template might be in regards to substitutions. Best to keep template deletion proposals at WP:TFD so that editors can determine if an unused template can be saved or used appropriately. Steel1943 (talk) 20:37, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as proposed. I've been thinking about this for a bit, but I don't think it makes sense to insert a PROD-like process into CSD. I would, however, support the addition of templates to the list of things that are PROD-able since it seems the reason for this is to help unclog TfD. -- Tavix (talk) 21:24, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Tavix: As explained above, F4, F5, F6, F7, F11, C1, and T3 all have the seven day window. This PROD-like process you speak of was introduced into CSD a long time ago. Nihlus 21:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- This is literally a "Template PROD", as nicknamed from the header. It would be less complicated to simply add templates to WP:PROD (like what was done with files a few months back) rather than a new CSD blurring those lines even further. -- Tavix (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Your argument seems to rely solely on semantics. T3 exists so it is essentially a template PROD already. There's no metaphorical line to be blurred as it already has been defined. Nihlus 21:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- If "template PROD" already essentially exists, as you claim, then there should be no issues with adding templates to PROD. If "Template PROD" is actually added, then we can simplify the CSD list by deprecating the "un-speedy" criteria if desired. Instead, you're trying to add more criteria to CSD, which in my opinion is not the right way to achieve the objectives stated above. -- Tavix (talk) 21:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Your argument seems to rely solely on semantics. T3 exists so it is essentially a template PROD already. There's no metaphorical line to be blurred as it already has been defined. Nihlus 21:38, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- This is literally a "Template PROD", as nicknamed from the header. It would be less complicated to simply add templates to WP:PROD (like what was done with files a few months back) rather than a new CSD blurring those lines even further. -- Tavix (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Sorry to be pointing out the obvious, but there's a substantial difference between the PROD-like process proposed here and the kinds of speedy deletion criteria that happen to incorporate time delay. F4, F5, F6, F7, F11 are there to deal with likely copyright infringements and so are need for the fundamental purpose of staying on the right side of the law; T3 is for the removal of duplication (and hence the template-space flavour of A10); C1 is for empty categories, where this is virtually a technical deletion, where the non-technical and potentially controversial part of the process has already been done by its emptying (and hence anyone would have already objected before this point). These are all inherently uncontroversial deletions, which is definitely not the case for templates that appear unused, at least not any more than it would be the case that it's uncontroversial to have a speedy deletion criterion for orphaned articles. – Uanfala 22:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Tavix: As explained above, F4, F5, F6, F7, F11, C1, and T3 all have the seven day window. This PROD-like process you speak of was introduced into CSD a long time ago. Nihlus 21:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- The definition of CSD, from the very first sentence of WP:CSD is "The criteria for speedy deletion (CSD) specify the only cases in which administrators have broad consensus to bypass deletion discussion, at their discretion, and immediately delete Wikipedia pages or media" (my emphasis added). If we have a seven-day delay, then it's not immediate—let's not add another violation of this. Thankfully, the addition of File PROD has rendered the F time-delay criteria redundant. That leaves C1 and T3. I understand the delay for C1, but even empty categories can be a controversial deletion if there's articles to populate them, so I rather have a category PROD than C1. I don't see the point of having a time delay for T3. If there is substantial duplication of another template, that's still going to be the case seven days later, so I would support removing the delay for that criterion. -- Tavix (talk) 22:23, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - This one doesn't seem to qualify as "speedy" to me. There are enough, if not too many, criteria using the seven-day period, like F7, which I think are starting to become more redundant to me. I'm thinking that "Template PROD" can be re-proposed with slight tweaks, Primefac, at either WT:PROD or WP:VPP. It doesn't have to be part of the CSD, does it? Thoughts? --George Ho (talk) 05:59, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
- Mostly technical oppose: Isn't this a proposal to expand PROD to templates? I think WT:PROD would be a better place. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:26, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Template:Db-nn
Template:Db-nn was nominated at RfD which reached a consensus to deprecate (discussion). There was no discussion about how it should be deprecated though, so I've done a quick and simple job (as a normal editor) that I encourage other editors to look at and improve if they see fit. Thryduulf (talk) 11:24, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
- Looks good, I merely tweaked it a bit. Regards SoWhy 12:18, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Draft remaining after article was created by copy/paste
See Draft:Brabble, and Brabble.
Seems to me that Draft:Brabble should be somehow speedy deletable, but I don't see how... Jytdog (talk) 00:22, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- No. The draft should not be deleted. The copy-paste was a WP:Copyrights infringement, albeit merely a Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia failure that can be fixed. If anything is to be deleted, it is the copy-pasted article, per Wikipedia:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#G12. It should be fixed by Wikipedia:History merge. The copy-paster, Ralum23 (talk · contribs), should be educated. Ideally, attempts to save a very large amount of new content should invoke a software check for it being a direct copy-paste from another page, resulting in an interruption and warning if true. Even if not true, large new content saves are often copyright infringing. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:53, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks, history merge requested. Jytdog (talk) 02:45, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Jytdog: this is
Done. — xaosflux Talk 03:01, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
- Thanks! Jytdog (talk) 03:30, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
What if all speedy deletion criteria except G12 were abolished?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
What if almost everything were sent to AfD instead of CSD? I think:
- It wouldn't require too much extra effort over at AfD, because (1) the slam-dunk cases typically don't take a lot of time to review and (2) situations where someone creates a whole slew of deletable articles could be listed together as one group
- In more marginal cases, the AfDs would create a record of the best arguments for keeping the article, which people considering recreating the article could then review to see if they have any better arguments than what were rejected before, thereby avoiding pointless re-creations while encouraging helpful re-creations
- Some articles that currently get deleted under CSD would get rescued instead by being improved to the point where they could be kept, during the process of the AfD
It seems like CSD has become the new AfD, i.e., we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD. For example, if a topic seems non-notable, usually it will be nominated as A7, even if it doesn't really fall under A7. Then all it takes is one admin out of 851 to decide it should go, and it's gone.
If it really is a slam-dunk case of non-notability, wouldn't people at AfD be able to tell at a glance, and not have to spend a whole lot of time looking at it before saying "delete"? But if it isn't a slam-dunk case, then it's more likely that as a group of people is reviewing it over a week, someone will notice that it is in fact notable, and make an argument for it.
From the point of view of people who misuse the CSD, there's not really any downside to tagging the article as a speedy just to see if that flies. Unless someone is going to impose a consequence for CSD misuse (which, as people have pointed out, is hard to do, because of the lack of after-the-fact transparency in a lot of these cases, plus a lack of "constituency" for looking after an article's survival if the original author is no longer around), it seems like the only answer is to mostly just scrap the CSD system. Maybe use prod instead for those cases that are expected to be uncontroversial, and accept the tradeoff of having to wait a week as the cost of restoring the integrity of the deletion process.
CSD probably worked better back when the wiki was small and Jimbo could personally oversee all the admins to make sure processes weren't being misused. I think the wiki has outgrown CSD, because there's no longer that mechanism for accountability. Smooth alligator (talk) 18:49, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Special:Log/delete indicates to me that you'd need A LOT MORE deletion discussions in such cases. Also, don't forget G10. I get the idea of accountability but in the real world there is only so much manpower and attention. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:54, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- I've just today deleted about 50 cross-namespace redirects as a result of userfying a bunch of templates. If I had to send all those to RfD rather than just G6ing them that would be a right ballache. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 19:04, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- If an editor misuses CSD some Admin or other editor will come down on them like a ton of bricks. I was accused of having low CSD accuracy based on some declines, but when I finally managed to turn on User:Legacypac/CSD_log I proved the declines rate was extraordinarily low - the odd decline against thousands of accepts is just as likely to be an Admin mistake as mine. Legacypac (talk) 04:05, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- (ec) Looking at the logs, there were something like 2000 (two thousand) pages deleted in the last 24 hours—the vast majority of which weren't G12. Just reading the list of page titles would break AfD, even if most were "slam-dunk" cases.
- It's also worth noting that a deletion via application of a CSD template effectively requires two consecutive, affirmative "votes" for deletion: one from the editor who applies the template, and a second from the admin who reviews the CSD request. And any editor (admin or not) can effectively veto the CSD request by removing the template; except in cases of abuse, that prevents CSD from being used to delete the article going forward. That's likely substantially more oversight than any two-thousand-articles-per-day AfD process would get. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 19:06, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, although if an admin sees the article first (e.g. as he's patrolling), he can delete it unilaterally without anyone else's placing a tag on it first. Smooth alligator (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- He (why he? We even allow women to have the mop and bucket now you know!) can, but outside of the obvious cases of G3, G10 and G12 (where "get rid of it now" really is imperative) it's really poor practice to do that. Similarly, when you want to project a page, you're better off going to WP:RFPP first unless it's an obvious case like persistent vandalism. And woe betide the admin who blocks somebody they're in an edit war with. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Poor practice? I have been doing this for 10 years or so, without many problems. Has saved other admins a lot of time, and prevented a lot of problematic articles of getting longer exposure here. Of course one needs to be careful, and in case of doubt tag it (or prod, or just pass) instead, but in most cases unilaterally deleting isn't a problem. Fram (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with Ritchie333 that direct deletion is not good as a standard practice. It helps to get a sanity check in, especially with A7 and G11. But an admin who tags something for G10 instead of deleting it should give their mop to someone else. —Kusma (t·c) 11:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Poor practice? I have been doing this for 10 years or so, without many problems. Has saved other admins a lot of time, and prevented a lot of problematic articles of getting longer exposure here. Of course one needs to be careful, and in case of doubt tag it (or prod, or just pass) instead, but in most cases unilaterally deleting isn't a problem. Fram (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- He (why he? We even allow women to have the mop and bucket now you know!) can, but outside of the obvious cases of G3, G10 and G12 (where "get rid of it now" really is imperative) it's really poor practice to do that. Similarly, when you want to project a page, you're better off going to WP:RFPP first unless it's an obvious case like persistent vandalism. And woe betide the admin who blocks somebody they're in an edit war with. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 20:14, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, although if an admin sees the article first (e.g. as he's patrolling), he can delete it unilaterally without anyone else's placing a tag on it first. Smooth alligator (talk) 19:52, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose If there is misuse the focus should be in fixing and preventing it, not in abolishing a system that works and prevents a lot of extra time from editors having to vote delete for all those new articles we would have at AFD. I personally think that time has better use elsewhere in the project. --Crystallizedcarbon (talk) 19:15, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- On a historical note, there was never a time when Jimbo oversaw all admins - unless you when those first months when Jimbo employed Larry who was the only authority. Rmhermen (talk) 19:19, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- This is a really bad idea. I did once write a program which attempted to classify mainspace deletions according to the reason for deletion. I haven't kept it up to date so the most recent figures I have are from 2012, but nevertheless they suggest that the number of pages deleted through CSD is something like four to five times the number deleted through AFD and PROD combined. And the vast majority of those articles are rubbish, so we'd waste loads of time putting them through more thorough review. AfD does require more overhead than speedy deletion, it requires somebody to nominate the article, some people (usually at least two) to comment on it and then someone to close it. This can last for up to a month. Imagine if we had to do that every time somebody wrote an article which said "dfjkdjadkadsjf" and was intelligent enough to contest the PROD. Furthermore this would hurt the chances of articles which are worth keeping, because they would be a lot harder to find amidst the tidal wave of crap this proposal would unleash on the AfD and PROD processes. Hut 8.5 19:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Comment I think I'd like to keep G3 and G10 myself. "we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD" Utter poppycock. Do you have any actual evidence to back that up? I've done something in the region of about 4,000 CSDs I think and the only one I have ever knowingly done outside policy was Micaela Schäfer, and even then I announced it on WP:AN immediately afterwards explaining why. If you've got actual logs of admins deleting stuff out of order, ping them to this discussion and I'll try and find out why - except 1) speedies like U5 and G11 in particular can be controversial and objective and 2) if you were going to say RHaworth, I can't think of very many, if any, speedies he's actually done outside policy. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 19:51, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- If there's a way to search the deletion log for edit summaries, just look for T2. – Uanfala 00:03, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose I was here when the criteria were much narrower. AfD (well, it was called VfD back then) had, relatively speaking, much more traffic. The problem was that then, as now, most deletion cases don't get much serious, insightful review, and so we'd get dozens of boring articles on non-notable subjects. It was, at best, a high-effort process that was a drain on the volunteer resource, and at worst, it was inconsistent and empowered creators of marginal articles since the process was slow and the outcome uncertain. I occasionally follow the logs and I don't see abuse, and I see little in the way of creeping expansion of the criteria that isn't supported by discussion here. The Uninvited Co., Inc. 20:45, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
- Comment
we're at a point where if an admin thinks an article wouldn't survive an AfD, he will usually just speedy it even if it doesn't meet the CSD
Sadly, I think you're right, assuming by "survive" you mean an AfD resting in keep (remember, there are other possible AfD outcomes, such as merge and redirect). I frequently see articles that have obvious merge/redirect targets deleted under A7. This AfD is a good example in which two editors (one of whom is an experienced admin) insisted it was an obvious A7 per WP:INHERITWEB (don't get me started on that and its "connexion" to A7. For my views on the matter, you can read this), despite having a blindingly obvious merge/redirect target. The irony here is that it was kept as notable. Adam9007 (talk) 20:59, 18 October 2017 (UTC) - Oppose I've speedied thousands of pages in the last few months that don't warrant the effort of AfD or MfD. The OP is either very inexperienced in deletion process or trolling. Legacypac (talk) 00:30, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose . Not trolling but with only 341 mainspace edits and barely 3 months, Smooth alligator would be well advised to get significantly more experience before considering getting involved in serious maintenance areas and talking about what used to be done years ago. A good start to their Wikicareer would be to enroll at the WP:CVUA and do some vandalism patrolling and leave article deletion topics alone for a while. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:50, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Advice noted. Although if you look at the contribution histories of some of the people who are very active in patrolling and deleting articles, or who spend a lot of time weighing in on policy and incidents and such, and filter by article creations, a lot of them have created virtually no articles other than redirects. Or they haven't created articles in a very long time. So they don't encounter speedy deletion from the perspective of the article creator. I'm sure a lot of article creators too spend little or no time patrolling and tagging articles. It's just not their cup of tea.
- The different sides of the debate on deletion policy tend to lack a full and balanced perspective because they've specialized so much in their areas of interest (either article creation or article deletion or policy/incidents or whatnot). I see this too in the RFAs sometimes; people will say, "I can't support you because you have no experience in x" even if what they've said they want to do with the tools has nothing to do with x. People naturally tend to think that whatever area they're involved in is important and that everyone should try it. Smooth alligator (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not concerned if you try working deletion or not, but if you have no experience in deletion work it is inappropriate to give opinions about overhauling it in drastic ways. Legacypac (talk) 03:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- The different sides of the debate on deletion policy tend to lack a full and balanced perspective because they've specialized so much in their areas of interest (either article creation or article deletion or policy/incidents or whatnot). I see this too in the RFAs sometimes; people will say, "I can't support you because you have no experience in x" even if what they've said they want to do with the tools has nothing to do with x. People naturally tend to think that whatever area they're involved in is important and that everyone should try it. Smooth alligator (talk) 03:04, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose What benefit would this have? Filling full of spam is what killed Google Knol, and in fact IMO we need more methods to prevent this not less. Those who appear to support undisclosed / disclosed paid editing work very hard to make sure no deletion steps an iota over a very strict reading of policy. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 10:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose, but somewhat more articles could go through PROD instead of speedy deletion. A lot of things need to be deleted, but there is no urgency. —Kusma (t·c) 11:36, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Prod does have the significant merit that the proposer provides a rationale, thus letting the article creator know what is needed and allowing them to respond. I have sometimes chosen it over CSD for that reason. But there is no merit in encouraging false hope and effort in situations which have no chance of demonstrable notability (the one-person business creating web pages, the newly self-publishing writer, the local insurance broker, etc.) where A7/G11 are appropriate. AllyD (talk) 12:06, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose: There are no "slam-dunk cases" at AfD. It takes each participant's time and effort to (a) read the AfD rationale, (b) read and evaluate the page, (c) conduct searches in the standard and other case-specific locations, and (d) provide a rationale. A case is generally not closed without more than one "delete" opinion, however detailed, so there is the additional re-listing effort. It is a process creaking with an ever-present load whose increase would not serve the project's interest. AllyD (talk) 12:19, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose, mainly per AllyD, but a few others as well. "Removing" CSD actually causes more problems than it solves, as XfD is actually EXTREMELY complicated. Note to proposer: Please come back once you've read more on Wikipedia's deletion process. ToThAc (talk) 17:21, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per Kudpung. To the cynical, the suggestion could come across as — fortunavelut luna 17:33, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - speedy deletion was created specifically because the large volume of "slam-dunk" nominations to AfD was overwhelming the process. There is no reason to think the problem wouldn't be worse given the higher rate of creation and deletion now. VQuakr (talk) 18:37, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
Add a baseless claim extension
I was wondering if a "baseless claim" extension to either G3 or G10, leaning G3, can be added. It's already partially covered by G6, but I think some additional parameters can be added in order for pages to qualify under the extension:
- The extension would apply to WP:ARBREQ, WP:LTA, WP:RFC, and WP:SPI, to name a few.
- To qualify, the filing user must have had little or no prior experience in the given administrative area, or have had a generally bad reputation there.
- To qualify, practically everything presented by the filing user must be baseless, subject to a few exceptions.
- To qualify, the targeted user (if there is one) must have a generally good reputation on Wikipedia.
Administrators can check out Wikipedia:Long-term abuse/Oshwah, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jimbo Wales, Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/NeilN, and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Oshwah as a few examples. ToThAc (talk) 17:54, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- G6 is fine for the links you posted. G3 also covers it. G5 probably also covers these particular ones. G6 is already kind of the catch-all for "this should obviously be deleted but none of the criteria fit exactly". Ivanvector (Talk/Edits) 18:01, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
- Agree with Ivanvector that G6 covers all this. TonyBallioni (talk) 01:11, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
- I think G3 covers it since WP:Vandalism is defined as "intentionally making abusive edits to Wikipedia" and creating obviously baseless SPI reports surely can be considered abusive. Regards SoWhy 09:19, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
- G3 and G10 cover this well. Delete, block and WP:DENY are the correct answer here, not any changes to our criteria. —Kusma (t·c) 09:30, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
Proposal: replace A11 with G14
I propose that criterion A11 be replaced with a new criterion, G14. This is because the criterion (that the subject was obviously made up) can be reasonably applied to spaces such as template: and draft:. The proposed new text is similar to the existing A11 text, and would be:
This applies to any nominally encyclopedic content that plainly indicates that the subject was invented/coined/discovered by the article's creator or someone they know personally, and does not credibly indicate why its subject is important or significant. The criterion does not apply to any article that makes any credible claim of significance or importance even if the claim is not supported by a reliable source or does not qualify under Wikipedia's notability guidelines. Note: This is not intended for hoaxes (see CSD G3).[1]
References
Thoughts? VQuakr (talk) 03:52, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- It seems sensible. "Obviously made up" should be speediable in any namespace. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:28, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Quite reasonable. Support. J947( c ) (m) 04:55, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose as written. Doesn't seem to be solving an actual problem, while causing some new ones. Draft space may be a good place for such topics in borderline cases, even when they are speediable in main space. User space should be left alone. I haven't seen any cases where this could have been applied in other spaces. —Kusma (t·c) 06:58, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Kusma: the idea was prompted by the discussion at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:The Republic of Myhös. VQuakr (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- I don't dispute that this happens, but I don't think this happens frequently enough to be a CSD. —Kusma (t·c) 08:59, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Kusma: the idea was prompted by the discussion at WP:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:The Republic of Myhös. VQuakr (talk) 08:12, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support. We should not have to go to MfD or wait six months for G13 to kick in in order to delete something that we could speedy as clearly made up if it were in mainspace. Kusma, I recognize that userspace is traditionally given more leeway for borderline or even personal topics but we already have U5 for WEBHOST violations, so I think your concern is somewhat misplaced as there's clearly a precedent for getting rid of inappropriate content from userspace. That being said, I don't have an objection to carving out a "no userspace" exception for this one if we really have to. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:38, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- U5 has an important exception for real long-term contributors, who are allowed to keep otherwise inappropriate stuff in their userspace. —Kusma (t·c) 09:00, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose--Unless and until user-space is left out of it's purview.Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 11:30, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support WP:U5 is used to delete such material in userspace now, but this crieria would be easier for new users to understand. There is no reason any page should be hosting stuff a user made up one day. We need this for Drafts for sure and we should being CSDing such Drafts instead of rejecting them at AfC. Legacypac (talk) 11:34, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- @Legacypac:--Well, will the new expanded criterion cover User:Catherine de Burgh/Catherine Bonkbuster?Regards:)Winged Blades of GodricOn leave 12:21, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Support - It makes a lot of sense to extend this beyond just article space.- MrX 12:16, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - First, I think it's important to remember that deleting something doesn't actually do anything other than hiding it, and most of the content in draft or user space is pretty well hidden already. Second, drafts and user pages aren't just areas for creating future articles (although ideally they are primarily for that and that alone). For a lot of new users, it's also a safe space to more or less tinker with the software and figure out how it works, which is not an easy thing to sort out. Even though those of us who use it every day are want to forget the steep learning curve. It's also in many ways a space to tinker with policies, and figure out exactly why a draft or a subject isn't acceptable. Third, most editors, especially new ones, don't actually fire up Wikipedia before they've had their morning coffee, and check their watchlist before they go to bed. That's why six months is six months: because it's realistic that a good faith editor might only return to work on a draft after several weeks of absence.
- Overall, I think it's a recipe for WP:BITE, and while it might solve a problem from our perspective, it seems doubtful that most readers will ever at all notice any difference, and I don't think that's a level of potential improvement that justifies really much of any level of acceptable risk. GMGtalk 12:39, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose Draft space is where such articles could be drafted to eventually indicate why they are significant, and there is no requirement for them to immediately do so. In fact, draft space is exactly where such a thing should be done when it was created/invented by someone the author knows personally, or themselves. Smartyllama (talk) 12:41, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
- No Draft space and userspace is NOT where people should be writing about the drinking game or micronation they invented last week. Facebook or their own blog or nowhere are better places. No such page is ever kept a MfD. Also note the page must not assert notability.Legacypac (talk) 17:22, 26 October 2017 (UTC)