<!-- [[User:DoNotArchiveUntil]] 19:01, 11 May 2024 (UTC) -->{{User:ClueBot III/DoNotArchiveUntil|1715454067}}
== G11s in Draft Space ==
Should there be a new R5 criteria for incorrectly formatted redirects to DAB pages? {{tq|Redirects to disambiguation pages with malformities qualifiers such as [[Foo (desambiguation)]], [[Foo (DISAMBIGUATION)]] and [[Foo (Disambiguation)]], this excludes redirect using the correct [[WP:INTDAB]] title namely [[Foo (disambiguation)]] or any title that has useful history. Redirects with incorrect qualifiers that don't target disambiguation pages can be deleted under G14.}} '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 18:50, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' as proposer and the discussions at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 26#London (Disambiguation)]] and [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 24#"Title (Disambiguation)" redirects to disambiguation pages]] these redirects are a nuisance to editors trying to fix disambiguation errors and search takes readers to the correct title if deleted anyway. I would be open to moving the redirects to pages ending in the (correctly formatted) "(disambiguation)" that point to pages that aren't DAB pages here if people think that's a good idea. 1 objective, most agree they should be deleted though a significant minority disagree as is sometimes the case with other criteria, 2, uncontestable, per the 2 linked discussions there is a consensus that they should be deleted, 3, frequent, although not extremely frequent they are frequent enough IMO, 4, nonredundant, these may be able to be deleted under R3 or G6 as it was argued in the 2022 discussion but given the discussion it would be clearer to have a separate criteria. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*Pinging people from the 2 linked RFDs {{Ping|Nickps|Certes|Thryduulf|Steel1943|PamD|InterstellarGamer12321|Utopes|Cremastra|Shhhnotsoloud|CycloneYoris|Explicit|Hqb|Sonic678|Neo-Jay|Station1|Axem Titanium|Mellohi!|Chris j wood|CX Zoom|Mx. Granger|The Banner|MB|Paradoctor|J947|Tavix|A7V2|Uanfala|Eviolite|BDD|BD2412|Compassionate727|Respublik|Legoktm}}. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. These shoot basically be deleted on sight. [[User:BD2412|<span style="background:gold">'''''BD2412'''''</span>]] [[User talk:BD2412|'''T''']] 19:11, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose alternative capitalization of first letter being included''' – These are not harmful and Wikipedia is not improved with their deletion. It's entirely predictable that someone would miscapitalize a disambiguator. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 19:42, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. As the only non-article pages in mainspace, disambiguation pages and redirects are each special and somewhat obscure from a reader viewpoint, and redirects to disambiguation pages are doubly so. The correct versions of these redirects are a technical measure to assist editors and the automated tools they use. The incorrect versions, including capitalised variants, serve no purpose and help no one. Shoot on sight. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 19:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Entirely unhelpful to keep these around. Might as well keep any and every misspelling as entirely predictable that someone at some point will make such an error. Better to make it clear that it is an error than to let an editor think they have created a correct wiki link. [[User:Bkonrad|older]] ≠ [[User talk:Bkonrad|wiser]] 20:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' deleting "(<u>D</u>isambiguation)" redirects if they redirect to a disambiguation page-someone might miscapitalize the D (like in the case of holding the {{key|Shift}} key for too long), and while it may not necessarily be helpful, it's not harmful either. '''Support''' deleting those with misspelled "disambiguations" and those that have "disambiguation" yet don't have appropriate disambiguation pages that exist-those ones are search bar clutter and might annoy or mislead people respectively. '''Neutral (tilting support)''' on deleting the "(DISAMBIGUATION)" ones though-this error (e.g., holding the {{key|Caps Lock}} key) does happen, but not very often. Those ''may'' help some people, but they're mostly an annoyance, so Wikipedia may be safe without the fully capitalized disambiguators. Regards, [[User:Sonic678|<span style="font-family:Racing Sans One; color:#0F45D2">SONIC</span>]][[User talk:Sonic678|<span style="font-family:Vivaldi; font-size:83%; color:#D4AF37">678</span>]] 20:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*:{{tpq|those that have "disambiguation" yet don't have appropriate disambiguation pages that exist}} Redirects ending in "(disambiguation)" (with any capitalisation) that don't point to a disambiguation page and cannot be retargetted to an appropriate disambiguation page are already covered by R4. Those that don't end that way need discussion to determine what, if anything, the best target is. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 07:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. These are harmful because linking to them from anywhere except their RfD nomination is ''always'' a mistake per [[WP:INTDAB]]. They should all be red links so its immediately obvious to the editor that tries to add them. In fact, this is precisely why we should delete "(Disambiguation)" redirects since those are the most likely ones to make editors trip up. The very few editors that hold down Shift for too long while searching for disambiguation pages (I'm guessing people don't search for dab pages too often in general so imagine how rare those mistakes are) will be taken care of by search anyway. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 20:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*:By that logic we shoudn't have any redirects pointed to dab pages. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 03:45, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::No, that doesn't follow from my comment. What I said only applies to the redirects included in the CSD proposal. Linking to e.g. [[doing]] instead of <nowiki>[[do (disambiguation)|doing]]</nowiki> is wrong but the redirect should still be kept since it's useful for searching. [[Do (Disambiguation)]] is not useful because it's an implausible search term and anyone who nevertheless searches it today ends up in the correct page yet it looks close enough to the correct version that an unsuspecting editor might think it's fine per [[WP:INTDAB]] even though it's not. Keeping it would provide no benefit to the readers <del>but would cause problems to the editors</del> <ins>and the problem it would cause to the editors outweighs any potential benefits</ins>. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 12:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)<ins>;edited: 12:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)</ins>
*:::I guess I just really disagree that it's an implausible search term to have the alternative capitalization. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 14:22, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::Well, who types "(disambiguation)" in the first place? Almost all (if not all) our readers would type the name of the thing they are looking for and click the hatnote. I'm guessing (but I admittedly don't know for sure) that a lot of editors do the same. So, when even the correct capitalization is implausible, imagine what the incorrect one is. And again, for the very few people who do type the whole thing instead of clicking on the correct suggestion, and the very few times they get it wrong, search will find the right page anyway. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 14:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::Some people do search directly for disambiguation pages, e.g. when they are looking for a list of things called X, or when they know or suspect that the X they are looking for is not the primary topic but don't know what the article is called. As far as I am aware, it is not possible to know how many people "some" is, other than it's greater than zero.
*:::::Regarding the capitalisation, everywhere outside of disambiguators there is a very strong consensus that redirects from plausible alternative capitalisations (such as Title Case) are a Good Thing. I've never seen any remotely convincing evidence for why disamiguators are different. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
* [[File:Wikipedia search box screenshot for use in en.Wikipedia talk-Criteria for speedy deletion-RFC new R5.png|right]] '''Support''' Nothing has changed since the RFCs. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 21:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC) <ins>; added image 21:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)</ins>
*:As pointed out every time search suggestions (the image) are brought up at RFD, this is only true for a subset of ways people navigate Wikipedia. Users, including but not limited to those following links, entering the URI directly, or using some third-party search methods will not end up at a page that doesn't match the capitalisation of their search directly. What happens then depends on a combination of multiple factors, but some will be one click/tap away from the page they want others will be up to at least three clicks/taps away. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*::Maybe you find it so frustrating because others don't find your argument convincing? This may be a case of touring the sticks.
*::{{tq|third-party search}} Just for kicks, I tried a few external search engines with the query "London (Disambiguation)". Unsurprisingly, all of them returned [[London (disambiguation)]] as their first hit. If you go through the search API, you go directly there. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 00:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::You not being convinced doesn't mean others weren't, so please don't act like they're silly for saying their peace. Thryduulf's argument in a previous RfD actually made me reconsider my view and realize how silly I was for supporting the deletion of alternative capitalizations of disambiguators. As if editors would never accidentally or mistakenly capitalize one, eh? As if these capitalizations are somehow detrimental and damaging, or unhelpful. I think what's silly is to act like they're saying something ludicrous. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 03:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::{{tq|like they're silly for saying their piece}} Please [[WP:FOC|don't put words in my mouth]]. Thryduulf complained in their edit summary about not getting through to others with their argument. I suggested that they might not have given enough consideration to changing their approach, which hasn't worked. It's one of my more hard-earned lessons from contributing in this place that being Right™ and being agreed to are different things. As Lonestone put it, doing the same thing again and again and expecting to get a different result is not ''[[wikt:zielführend|zielführend]]''. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 04:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::There is a difference between not being convinced by an argument and pretending that argument does not exist. It's fine to think that disadvantaging a proportion of readers is OK, what is not fine is claiming that nobody will be disadvantaged. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 07:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Again, words are being put in my mouth. {{em|Where}} did I say that "nobody will be disadvantaged"? Maybe you were thinking of somebody else? Maybe I should now complain about not being understood? <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 07:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Saying "nobody will be disadvantaged" is implicit in your posting of the image directly above when it has been explained, multiple times, why arguments relating to search suggestions are incorrect and/or misleading (depending how they're phrased). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::No, that is you reading stuff into my words. All I did was let some air out of your argument. You don't have to like it, but don't misrepresent my words. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 19:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::You let no air out of my argument, because my argument has always explicitly acknowledged that search suggestions exist and help some people but because they do not help everybody they are not evidence the redirect is unnecessary. Pointing out that search suggestions exist adds nothing to that at all. Pointing out search suggestions exist in combination with an argument that says such redirects are unnecessary is misleading. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::It is [[WP:SATISFY|not my job to convince you]]. {{tq|It is not necessary or desirable to reply to every comment in a discussion.}}
*::::::::::That I have not rebutted your every point is because I don't deem it necessary. I've argued to the point where I let the process do the rest. It may not satisfy you, but it does {{em|not}} give you licence to impugn my words as misleading. That is inappropriate. You believe you're right? Fine. Then wait for the close. Or talk to someone else. The only thing you can achieve here is badgering me. <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 21:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::I'm not asking you to convince me, or to agree with me. I'm asking you to acknowledge the existence of arguments that refute yours rather than pretend they don't exist. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::::Again for the hard of hearing: [[WP:BADGER]] {{tq|The fact that you have a question, concern, or objection does not [...] mean that others are obligated to {{em|answer}}}} (added emphasis) <span style="display:inline-block;position:relative;transform:rotate(-3deg);bottom:-.1em;">[[user:Paradoctor|Paradoctor]]</span> ([[user talk:Paradoctor|talk]]) 21:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::Depending on the search method of I use, you're 100% correct. The lack of the alternative capitalization has been a hindrance at times. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 03:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Strong oppose''' "Disambiguation" redirects per my arguments at the linked RfDs. These are useful redirects and deletion harms the encyclopaedia, speedy deletion would be even more harmful. Almost all implausible misspellings of "disambiguation" can be speedy deleted under G6 and/or R3 already, I've not seen any evidence there are enough that can't to justify speedy deletion. ''Plausible'' misspellings should be kept like any other plausible misspelling redirect. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' per Thryduulf. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 21:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''' As far as I know, obvious and unlikely names can already be speedy deleted. <span style="border:1px solid green; padding:0 2px">[[User:The Banner|<span style="color:green">The Banner</span>]] [[User talk:The Banner|<i style="color:maroon">talk</i>]]</span> 22:36, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*:When a case which R5 would cover goes to RfD, some editors say that it should have been deleted speedily but others oppose the deletion. I'm not sure whether those who oppose disagree that the case is obvious and unlikely, or that CSD includes obvious and unlikely redirects. Either way, it seems that we need to clarify the consensus on this matter. However, if another CSD criterion already covers this case, please suggest a clarification to it rather than creating R5. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 22:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*::CSD is explicitly only for the most obvious cases. If there is disagreement about whether it should be deleted at all then it's not suitable for speedy deletion. The cases where there is agreement are already unambiguously covered by existing, uncontroversial criteria (G6*, R3 and R4). <small>*G6 isn't completely uncontroversial, but the "unambiguously created in error" part that is relevant here is not controversial)</small> [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::There is clearly disagreement about whether R5 should become a CSD. Does that make it not a CSD? Is unanimity required for this sort of change, or just consensus? [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 08:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::It needs to be uncontroversial that every page which ''could'' be deleted according to criterion ''should'' be deleted. When the discussions show substantial disagreement then it is clearly controversial. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::If an editor states that alternative capitalizations should have been speedy deleted then they're wrong. They do not qualify under the existing R3 and G6 rationale, as I've explained to Crouch when they've CSD tagged alternative capitalizations in the past. They're possible search terms, which makes them ineligible for R3, and frankly I'd love to see AnomieBot or something regularly create the alternative capitalizations, similar to how it does with hyphens and en dashes. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 03:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::I hope there is no way that systematically cluttering the namespace with more erroneous redirects would gain consensus. Where do we stop? Do we also create 356,000 redirects for each plausible misspelling of "disambiguation"? How about duplicating every qualified article title by creating redirects from miscapitalisation Foo (Film), Foo (Footballer), etc.? [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 08:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::Sure, why not? It doesn't make Wikipedia worse. They're possibly search terms. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 14:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Comment''': I don't want to bludgeon the discussion, so I'll back off after this. But can anybody give me one example of how pages with an alternative capitalization on the disambiguator are a net negative and worth spending our time on fighting against? Those are typically piped anyways, so people wouldn't typically notice anyways. I'm always open to changing my mind and view, but over the last year where I've been following that disagreement, I just don't get it, and I really want to. The justification I end up being led to is a a user essay, not a guideline, and [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. If someone convinces me I'll happily change my view and help clean up. But I just genuinely don't get it and feel like I'm taking crazy pills when people are steadfast against alternative capitalizations. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 04:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:Suppose we have a page that intentionally links to more than 7 dab pages like [[Joey (name)]]. That page was tagged with {{tl|dablinks}} by [[:User:DPL bot]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Joey_(name)&diff=prev&oldid=1217075152 here] because the links didn't end with "(disambiguation)" like [[WP:INTDAB]] says they should. Once that was fixed, the bot removed the tag. However, had a well meaning editor used "(Disambiguation)" instead in an attempt to fix the problem, the tag would have stayed and the bot would readd it if someone tried to remove it. In that case, the editor trying to fix the problem would be at a loss since all the dab links are correctly marked as such from their perspective. [[User:JaGa]] (who should have been notified of this discussion from the beginning) can correct me if I'm wrong.
*:Now, considering the hypothetical I described above as well as the fact that the number of people who will be inconvenienced by the absence of such redirects is vanishingly small, is it worth it to keep them? [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 13:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::@[[User:Nickps|Nickps]]: Would we not have the page link to the proper dab location instead? People linking a redirect by mistake (of say a plausible misspelling) would not be reason enough for redirect variations not to exist. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 14:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::If a tool used to maintain the encyclopaedia encounters something that makes it behave in an undesirable manner then it needs to be either fixed or replaced with a tool that works properly. We should never degrade the reader experience (such as by breaking links) just to make life easier for editorial tools. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::The tool does not behave in an undesirable manner. This is what is supposed to happen. [[WP:INTDAB]] says {{tq|'''the community has adopted the standard of routing ''all'' intentional disambiguation links in mainspace through "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects'''}} (emphasis in the original). This isn't just a faulty assumption by a bot author, there is consensus behind it. Even if we decide that we should keep redirects of the form "... (Disambiguation)", "... (DISAMBIGUATION)" etc., there is no reason to change INTDAB or [[User:DPL bot]]'s behavior. We will just have to replace every mainspace link that points to such a page with the correctly capitalized version. The reason I still want to delete those pages is because I don't think such a process is worth it. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 19:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::If the bot is failing to recognise intentional redirects to disambiguation pages as intentional redirects to disambiguation pages that is undesirable. {{tpq|Even if we decide that we should keep redirects of the form [...] We will just have to replace every mainspace link that points to such a page with the correctly capitalized version.}}{{fake citation needed}}.
*::::The purpose of routing intentional links to disamiguation pages via redirects is so that they can be distinguished from unintentional links to disambiguation pages. The capitalisation (or indeed spelling) of the redirect is completely irrelevant to that. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::I think INTDAB should stay exactly as is since if we changed it to allow alternative capitalizations, that'd cause intended dab links to be inconsistent with each other, which would look unprofessional. All lowercase "disambiguation" should absolutely be a house style for dab links, even if we allow alternate capitalizations to exist. At best, we could have a bot recognize that those links are intentional and change them to the correct version, but we should not let them stand. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 20:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::After carefully re-reading that comment three times, I can't believe that I understood it correctly. Is it seriously suggesting that any old qualifier that looks a bit like "(disambiguation)" will do and, rather than correcting such errors, we should leave them in place and rewrite our processes and software to allow anyone to misspell the word however they like? [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 20:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::You have not understood the comment correctly. I'm saying that we could choose to allow any string that resembled "disambiguation" and still achieve the goal of distinguishing intentional and unintentional links to disambiguation pages. This means that if we want to restrict it to a subset of that then it has to be for other reasons than simply achieving the goal. Personally I think "disambiguation", "Disambiguation" and "DISAMBIGUATION" should all be identified as correct; other capitalisations and any commonly-encountered misspellings (if there are any) should be changed to one of those three by a bot, and misspellings should be flagged for human attention.
*::::::What I didn't say, but should have done, is that regardless of what we choose to accept for internal links that is completely independent of which redirects should be kept for the benefit of people searching or following links from external websites (in the same we keep almost all other redirects from plausible but incorrect capitalisations despite not linking to them internally) [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Thanks; that's clearer. I think that any hypothetical bot should correct other capitalisations in links along with known misspellings, as we currently do manually. That is a discussion for another place but, if we find consensus that INTDAB links to Foo (DISAMBIGUATION) are a good thing, then we should retain redirects of that name rather than deleting them speedily (or slowly), and possibly create the 99.999% of them which are currently missing. That is indeed a different question from whether we should retain such redirects for searching or external links. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 21:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::Its quite simple, if you think "Foo (Disambiguation)" or even "Foo (DISAMBIGUATION)" redirects are useful then get consensus to have a bot create all of them. Either readers and editors find them useful, in which case they should all be created or they don't, in which case they should all be deleted unless an exception applies. And if we think things out well as you said in the London discussion (its not clear if you're referring to the individual or mass creation as "well thought out") then we would realize that it is not good use of editor time to create and patrol random DAB redirects rather than create them when a bot. Again this is different to other types of redirects like where one redirect for an alternative name is used while the other isn't. All DAB pages have the same function and the (im)plausibility applies to all such titles regardless of if someone arbitrarily creates some. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]]: What makes alternative capitalizations on disambiguators any different from alternative capitalization redirects? I don't see people up in arms about alternative caps used for a wide variety of redirects. I'm not arguing for the full caps by any stretch, but I'm not sure consensus is even required for alternative capitalizations. As for, "{{tq|..then we would realize that it is not good use of editor time to create and patrol random DAB redirects}}", the bot which automatically patrols a number of redirects typically automatically marks a wide variety of alternative capitalizations as patrolled as well. I don't believe this would add much, if any, burden to the NPP team. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 20:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::RDAB gives the reasons for DAB pages with incorrect qualifiers and if we wanted them they would be created with the correct templates etc. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 14:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::{{od}}RDAB is an essay that expresses opinions. Some of those reflect widespread consensus, some of those opinions do not, and it makes no effort to distinguish them. It also makes no attempt to justify most of those opinions - e.g. it doesn't give any reasoning why "(Disambiguation)" should be regarded as less correct than "(disambiguation)". [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]]: I've read the [[WP:RDAB]] essay, but I fail to see how disambiguators using a different capitalization are harmful to the encyclopedia but redirects using alternative capitalization without a disambiguation are not (not that I want other alternative capitalizations deleted, just wanted to ask this again since it wasn't addressed). In short, I'm looking for an explanation and justification other than because a user essay says. I'm trying very hard to understand how the disambiguations in brackets, such as "(Actor)", "(Politician)", or "(Singer)", make the site worse, but no one has offered up a good explanation. Capitalization after the opening bracket certainly isn't unlikely, someone may have just held the shift button a slight bit too long. Newer users also usually aren't familiar with our naming conventions, so it doesn't seem implausible that someone may capitalize what's in brackets not knowing that we don't do so. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 15:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::Bots which mark redirects as patrolled just look at who created them rather than attempting to triage their title, target, rcats, etc. Being patrolled in this way simply means that a trusted editor thought it should be created (or made a mistake). [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 17:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::@[[User:Certes|Certes]]: That's actually not true, the bot will mark certain kinds of redirects as patrolled, even if you aren't on the [[WP:RAL|redirect autopatrol list]]. See some of the rules for the bot listed at [[User:DannyS712 bot III/rules]]. You'll note under bot task #38, point B, focuses on the target and the redirect, comparing the two for differences in capitalization and marking them as patrolled. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::Ah, thanks for the correction. I remember making suggestions when Danny was writing the bot about what sort of redirects could safely be passed, then I ended up with mine being passed based on author, but I didn't realise both measures were in place. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 18:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::If you have any more suggestions about redirects you think that should be autopatrolled I'd love to hear it @[[User:Certes|Certes]]. We recently reached consensus to autopatrol the redirects left behind by page movers when a page is moved (based on the threshold to receive the page mover permission, we should be able to trust the moves made by these users). [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 18:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::Thanks, I'll have a think and reply somewhere more relevant. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 18:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::A bot would still make fewer mistakes than a human if programmed correctly and would manage to create consistency. {{Ping|Hey man im josh|Thryduulf}} [[WP:AFFINITY]] says {{tq|or a disambiguated title with one parenthesis missing (the last is an example of an unnatural error; i.e. an error specific to Wikipedia titling conventions that would likely not be arrived at naturally by readers, thereby adding to the implausibility)}}. A title when the error is in brackets (or commas) is generally implausible as its very unlikely anyone will make use of it and as [[User:BD2412|BD2412]] said in the 2022 RFD {{tq|as it stands these excess incoming links are a nuisance to editors trying to fix disambiguation errors. Deleting these will only enable access to the links with the proper capitalization}}. So with almost no likelihood of use by readers (and if it is likely we should create all) but an inconvenience to editors who's efforts would be better spent of improving other things for our readers I think this along with the 2022 and 26 March RFD that there is a consensus (though weak) that these should not exist. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 22:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::Note that [[WP:AFFINITY]] is just a different section of the same essay so you haven't actually answered the question asked. No evidence is presented for the assertion that {{tpq|A title when the error is in brackets (or commas) is generally implausible as its very unlikely anyone will make use of it}} - indeed in multiple AfDs evidence that people ''do'' use some redirects that have "errors" within the parentheses. {{tpq|Deleting these will only enable access to the links with the proper capitalization.}} As repeatedly explained, this is false - some readers will access the content they are looking for via other links, other readers will not.
*::::::::As also mentioned multiple times, the inconvenience to editors can be solved at a stroke by changing the programming of the bot to stop flagging the redirects as errors (and/or by changing them itself). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::No evidence has been presented to support the claim that readers will benefit from a few random qualified redirects to DAB pages while multiple editors who fix DAB linked have expressed the point that they inconvenience editors. In a few cases evidence has been presented that they get a few views and have a few links but that doesn't show the viewers would actually have been inconvenienced as its likely the readers would have landed on the correctly capitalized version first time and the links would be corrected/wouldn't have been made to the incorrect title "A redirect that has other wikipages linked to it is not necessarily a good reason for keeping it. Current internal wikilinks can be updated to point to the current title.". '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 21:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::"No evidence presented" – Seriously? There absolutely has been evidence that these can be useful. It's funny considering the crux of your argument is a user essay and [[WP:IDONTLIKEIT]]. As mentioned, the bots can be tweaked. Please ping me when you propose another rationale to delete all alternative capitalizations on Wiki because of people mistakenly linking to a redirect. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 21:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::{{Ping|Hey man im josh}} From what I can see leaving aside the linkrot arguments that were presented in the 2022 discussion (but obviously not in the 2024 discussion) the main reason for keeping them was that some people navigate using direct URLs rather than the search box but there wasn't any reason to believe that its likely many will do that for the very small number of them that exist. And I didn't write the essay which is in the project space not userspace though I did add a "See also" to an essay I write years ago and have commented on the talk page, see [[WP:PERESSAY]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*::::::::::::When asked for a reason other than "this user essay, that presents no evidence to back up its assertions, says so" you point to... a user essay that doesn't even discuss the topic, let alone present relevant evidence? Why do you think that is relevant?
*::::::::::::Your other argument is "evidence was presented in discussions that people use these redirects" as evidence for your assertion that people don't use these redirects. That's not convincing me you are listening to what people are saying to you. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 20:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::::::::::::{{Ping|Thryduulf}} [[WP:RDAB]] is ''not'' a [[WP:User essay]] (yes it was a user essay in the past but its been in the project space for nearly 8 years) its a project essay that as noted I haven't really contributed to and most people support even though a significant minority oppose it. I'm just going by the consensus of which COSTLY has been cited in hundreds of RFDs over many years so its not my personal preference I'm going by what the consensus is which appears to be that they should be deleted. RDAB specifically discusses redirects with incorrect qualifiers. That's not a case of IDONTLIKEIT. If you want a reason other than based on the project space essay then I'd argue that those created accidentally (and were moved to the correct case) are [[Special:Diff/1106385203|borderline G6]]. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*::{{od}}Those which are G6 can and should be deleted under that criterion so a new one isn't needed. Of the rest, firstly there aren't that many (so a new criterion isn't needed) and secondly not all of them ''should'' be deleted reducing the number even further. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*::@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]]:
*::* [[WP:RDAB]] states: {{tq|This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.}}
*::* {{tq|WP:RDAB is not a WP:User essay}} – The point is it's an essay created by a few people, not policy, so the semantics of it don't really matter. These things have a habit of not changing beyond the original's writers intentions, otherwise people encourage someone to write another essay.
*::* {{tq|I haven't really contributed to and most people support even though a significant minority oppose it}} – You may not have contributed to it, but you're using it as the primary rationale when arguing for additional CSD criteria to be added. As you mention though, a significant minority oppose it, meaning this suggestion does not fit the criteria of being uncontroversial.
*::* {{tq|RDAB specifically discusses redirects with incorrect qualifiers.}} – [[Template:R from incorrect disambiguation]] and [[Template:R from miscapitalisation]] both exist as relevant categories and are accepted types of redirects, by and large. It's unclear how a mis/alternative capitalization in brackets makes the search time suddenly in valid.
*::* {{tq|If you want a reason other than based on the project space essay then I'd argue that those created accidentally (and were moved to the correct case) are borderline G6.}} – I've been begging for a reason other than the essay. As mentioned though, I fail to see what makes an alternative/miscapitalization of the first letter of a disambiguator an unlikely search term and an unhelpful redirect.
*::Thryduulf and I have presented numerous examples of how these redirects are possibly useful, but throughout the discussion you keep coming back to RDAB. Whether you want to use the words or not, this absolutely boils down to a case of IDONTLIKEIT. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 19:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*:::{{Ping|Hey man im josh}} An essay that has been endorsed by the majority of people does appear to have consensus. Yes PANDORA is clearly controversial but RDAB appears to be less so even though it is still controversial. CHEAP is also an essay which has existed longer which has also been used by numerous people and IDONTLIKEIT which I don't think apples here is also one.
*:::Yes that is a reason against it but many CSD criteria are also somewhat controversial. If there is a weak consensus it may be useful to have it.
*:::Such templates are used on redirects but redirects with implausible or malformatted qualifiers are also commonly deleted at RFD.
*:::Though policies and guidelines are stronger arguments as noted essays can still be used to argue things on Wikipedia. In any case as noted both the 2022 and 2024 RFDs neither of which were started by me resulted in a consensus to delete. You don't have to agree with that consensus and are free to argue against it but to claim IDONTLIKEIT in face of those RFDs seems a bit odd.
*:::The main arguments you and Thryduulf have presented are direct URL entering and the fact people have thought it necessary to create them but as noted it doesn't appear readers are likely to find them useful due to the qualifiers being WP specific and the way the search box goes. Though I would say its hard to provide evidence either way though I accept incoming links is evidence of this. I'd also give more weight to what users who use/participate in the DAB fixing tools than what I think and as noted multiple such people have complained about them. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 21:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::@[[User:Crouch, Swale|Crouch, Swale]]: {{tq|An essay that has been endorsed by the majority of people}} – Citation needed.
:::::I actually didn't mention the URL stuff. I said that it's easily possible, and likely that it happens all the time, where one user is typing and holds the shift button a little too long when adding a bracket, only to accidentally capitalize the first letter of the disambiguator. I have also said that I fail to see how these are harmful redirects. As we've also repeatedly mentioned when you bring up the search, the auto fill and drop down of options when you've partially typed in the search box doesn't work in every scenario, as you're suggesting. As such, it's then easy to see how a redirect from a typo / miscapitalization could be useful.
:::::I keep going back to IDONTLIKEIT because the focus of this discussion has been largely on the content of an essay that doesn't make any argument for why the redirects are harmful or detrimental. If there isn't an argument besides an essay and "they were deleted before", then that's IDONTLIKEIT.
:::::{{tq|I'd also give more weight to what users who use/participate in the DAB fixing tools than what I think and as noted multiple such people have complained about them.}} – Do you give weight to the people who review the redirects? I see alternative capitalization all the time, and when it's just on the first letter of a word I always mark it as reviewed for the reason that it could be helpful to someone.
:::::Franky I don't care at all about PANDORA in this situation. As an NPP coordinator / the leading redirect reviewer since over the past year and a half, I can attest that it's no extra work for reviewers (alt capitalizations are already auto reviewed) and we could ask Anome to have their bot auto create these like they do for titles with an en dash in the (the redirects they create use hyphens).
:::::In short, the alternative capitalization of the first letter is harmless, it's possibly useful, and it's not an improvement to the Wiki to delete these. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 21:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::Directet URL entry is simply one example of a case-sensitive method of navigating Wikipedia, it is not the only one. Many of these redirects have non-trivial numbers of page views, which is objectively evidence of them being used and, given they lead unambiguously to the only correct target, evidence of utility.
:::::{{tpq|If there is a weak consensus it may be useful to have [a CSD criterion].}} is absolutely incorrect. CSD is explicitly only for the most obvious cases where everything that could be deleted by a criterion should be deleted, according to consensus. Situations where the is only a weak consensus at best cannot meet those requirements. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::{{Ping|Hey man im josh|Thryduulf}} I don't know a huge amount about how DAB fixes work and how these interfere with it but [[User:Certes]] does appear to so may be able to explain better. In terms of caring about readers (or editors) using the redirects I'd argue its more confusing to have such redirects for a small number than not at all and if we thought such redirects were useful we would just get a bot to create all of them meaning such searches would always work rather than working in a small number of cases similar to the comments at [[Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 24#Absolutely every malformed disambiguation without parentheses]]. So if we care about people being able to use such redirects why not do it for all. Personally I'm normally an inclusionist but I think such redirects are outside that, on a similar note just because I think its a good idea to have a separate article on every municipality and census settlement and even other settlements doesn't mean I would think its a good idea to have an article on every farm or building. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::So, basically, because there's not enough of the redirects of this style you're arguing it's more confusing? We could easily request AnomieBot be configured to create these types of redirects. As for the linked AfD, that's an entirely different set of potential disambiguations which are less likely than the likely possibility of accidently using an alternative capitalization. [[User:Hey man im josh|Hey man im josh]] ([[User talk:Hey man im josh|talk]]) 19:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Personally I think helping people find the page they are looking for on some occasions is much better than going out of our way to never help them, but if creating a "(Disambiguation)" redirect to match every "(disambiguation)" page or redirect is what it takes to stop making the encyclopaedia harder to navigate then let's just do that. As for the linked RfD, you will see that I argued to keep those that are navigationally useful so I'm not sure why you think that example of OTHERSTUFF is helpful to your argument? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
:::::::Link fixing is needed after an editor links to a dab such as [[Mercury]] when they meant [[Mercury (planet)]]. Very occasionally, we really do want a link to the dab. (''For other uses, see [[Mercury]]''). To mark such cases so we don't keep checking them repeatedly, we apply [[WP:INTDAB]] and link to [[Mercury (disambiguation)|Mercury]]. Experienced dab fixers know to skip such links, and so do tools which produce reports such as [https://tools.wmflabs.org/dplbot/disambig_links.php Disambiguation pages with links]. They don't skip (Disambiguation), (DISAMBIGUATION) or (Disrandomtypotion), so links to such redirects would have to be checked again and again. Eventually, they would mount up and dwarf the actual errors. At that point, we would have no alternative but to give up and just leave all the bad links for our readers to follow. In fact, if (Disambiguation) redirects are created systematically, I for one will see no point in continuing this work and will give up immediately. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 19:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::{{Ping|Thryduulf}} Yes I know you !voted to keep but Josh !voted to delete which is who I was asking that particular question to. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 19:47, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
::::::::@[[User:Certes|Certes]] alternatively, the tools could just be adjusted so they don't mark "(Disambiguation)" etc as errors - indeed as they ''aren't'' errors they shouldn't marked as such at the moment. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 19:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Support all except capitalisation of first letter''', so I think this should be reworded to exclude that if it passes. As countless RfDs leading to [[WP:SNOW]]-level deletions (and amusing the daily logs to become massive) have shown, these redirects are completely unnecessary, unhelpful to the point that they are [[WP:COSTLY]] and should not exist, and they have clogged up the RfD log from discussions many times in the past. Therefore, this speedy deletion category is needed so that these can be deleted efficiently without wasting time or space at RfD. However, unlike the redirect types outlined at [[WP:RDAB]] and the other categories, there is a ''small'' chance that redirects with the alternate capitalisation can be useful. Even though this chance is small, I still think it is enough to justify a full discussion at RfD rather than speedy deletion. Leaving only this type of redirect for RfD is not enough to clog the daily log up with discussions, so I see this arrangement as a win-win where the unhelpful, unnecessary [[WP:RDAB]]-type redirects are speedily deleted as they should while redirects with a small chance of usefulness get a full RfD discussion without filling the log up with discussions. [[User:InterstellarGamer12321|<b>InterstellarGamer12321</b>]] ([[User talk:InterstellarGamer12321|<span style="color:#157710;">talk</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/InterstellarGamer12321|<span style="color:#e00000;">contribs</span>]]) 11:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*:Also, I think at least some (if not all) of the text currently at [[WP:RDAB]] should be added to the speedy deletion criterion definition to specify which types of redirects fall under this criterion to avoid confusion. [[User:InterstellarGamer12321|<b>InterstellarGamer12321</b>]] ([[User talk:InterstellarGamer12321|<span style="color:#157710;">talk</span>]] | [[Special:Contributions/InterstellarGamer12321|<span style="color:#e00000;">contribs</span>]]) 11:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*If first-letter capitalization ([[Foo (Disambiguation)]]) is excluded, then no evidence has been presented that this happens ''at all'', let alone frequently enough. And [[Foo (desambiguation)]] is either an R3 or needs more than one pair of eyes anyway. No argument to answer. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 12:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
**And the case for first-letter capitalization ''can't'' be made; there's been [[quarry:query/81833|763 such deletions ever]], with more than half on two days in late 2022. It's not because they're not being deleted, either, since only [[quarry:query/81832|four such pages currently exist]]. ([[Ø (Disambiguation)]] isn't a disambig.) This isn't remotely frequent enough to need a speedy deletion criterion. It's frequent enough for another batch rfd in another twenty years. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 13:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
**:It's just 3. [[O (Disambiguation)]] is an {{tl|R to diacritic}} that redirects to [[Ø (Disambiguation)]]. [[User:Nickps|Nickps]] ([[User talk:Nickps|talk]]) 21:21, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
**::Yes, [[Ø (Disambiguation)]] is a [[WP:IAR|IAR]] exception, notorious amongst dab maintainers for coming up as a false positive whenever we check for dodgy titles. Unsurprisingly, there are no pages with a qualifier of (DISAMBIGUATION) in all capitals. [[User:Certes|Certes]] ([[User talk:Certes|talk]]) 21:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' because it is rare for people to capitalise "Disambiguation" or said word in all caps. "desambiguation" is a typo that would obviously be qualified for R3 anyways. [[User:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:#fc65b8;">'''Toadette'''</span>]] <sup>''([[User talk:ToadetteEdit|<span style="color:blue;">Let's talk together!</span>]])''</sup> 10:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*:Things that are rare fail [[WP:NEWCSD]] requirement 3. Also "rare" is not the same thing as "harmful". [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 11:10, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' We already have criteria for the most obvious misspelling issues, redirects are cheap, deleting a redirect using other than CSD isn't exactly a burden on the system. I don't see this as solving a real issue, but it could cause some. [[User:Dennis Brown|<b>Dennis Brown</b>]] - [[User talk:Dennis Brown|<b>2¢</b>]] 06:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Thryduulf and Dennis Brown. R3 suffices for most cases, and the rest can go to RfD. This is simply not a significant problem. – [[User talk:Bradv|<span style="color:#333">'''brad''v'''''</span>]] 15:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Support''' these routinely get deleted at RfD; there is no reason to have the same debate 1000 times when the merits remain the same every single time. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 19:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''': gods, are we still arguing about this? Per Thryduulf and my previous comments. These rarely do any harm. [[User:Cremastra|Cremastra]] ([[User talk:Cremastra|talk]]) 15:44, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
* Wait, aren't we discussing something similar above? It feels like this proposal should have been incorporated into that RfC, perhaps as a secondary question. Regardless, '''support'''; there is consensus from countless RfD discussions, not merely from the wording at RDAB, that these redirects are not helpful and should be deleted. [[User:InfiniteNexus|InfiniteNexus]] ([[User talk:InfiniteNexus|talk]]) 16:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
*:They are properly separate because they deal with different things, only one of which meets the requirements for a speedy deletion criterion. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 16:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
* '''Comment''': I would be okay with this if we limit it to recently created redirects (similar to how A10 and R3 are limited to recently created redirects). Without this qualification, I '''oppose''' the change. For redirects that have existed a long time, the small maintenance benefit of deleting them doesn't outweigh the risk of breaking incoming external links ([[WP:RFD#KEEP]] point 4). —[[User:Mx. Granger|Mx. Granger]] ([[User talk:Mx. Granger|talk]] '''·''' [[Special:Contributions/Mx. Granger|contribs]]) 13:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
== Proposal: new criteria for duplicate drafts ==
I'm not sure if anything has changed or if I'm simply having more Drafts on my watchlist but I've been noticing a lot of Drafts deleted under G11. As a new page patroller I am no stranger to G11s and regularly use that tag myself. However I've now seen at least a couple occasions where there are good faith efforts at creating an article that are wiped away (or proposed to be wiped away) through G11. These articles certainly weren't ready for mainspace, but they weren't in mainspace they were in drafts and were going to have to go through AfC. Maybe they'd have been approved, maybe not, but I think something is off when these drafts are summarily deleted without any real chance to improve them. I am not in favor of saying no G11 for draft space at all but would love to see more editor caution in tagging drafts as such and admin in approving those tags. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 02:34, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
{{atop
| status = withdrawn
:I have seen cases (rarely though) where a draft starts out as promotional PR speak because that's the only text the author has just starting out, and then the draft is improved to the point where it becomes acceptable. In general I don't like seeing a G11 tag on an draft unless the draft has been around for a while and isn't improving. But early on in the life of the draft? No, not really. ~[[User:Anachronist|Anachronist]] <small>([[User talk:Anachronist|talk]])</small> 03:09, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
| result = Just redirecting instead. <span style="font-family:monospace;">'''<nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>[[User:CanonNi]]<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]]) 13:53, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
::I have processed a lot of AfC submissions. Many of them are so clearly G11 I tag them immediately for deletion. Why waste volunteer time rereviewing spam? [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 03:48, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
}}
:::You're definitely an experienced AfC reviewer. But I think there's a big difference between a draft that has yet to be submitted or has been submitted once and one that has been declined a couple of times. Draft space should be, in my thinking, a place where articles can be incubated and improved; it's why we don't allow most speedy delete criteria and why we let drafts sit for six months before being deleted (maybe). Summary deletion feels different there than it does in mainspace where it harms the credibility of the encyclopedia. We invite editors of declined drafts to the Teahouse for a reason - the idea that a ''draft'' would need to be fundamentally rewritten to be accepted, which is the G11 standard, doesn't strike me as troublesome or a waste of volunteer time. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 04:00, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:I am also for applying a higher G11 standard for drafts. I know some of our AfC reviewers are on an anti-spam jag and are using G11 as part of this. I fear admins are not giving due considerations to [[WP:ATD]] for these drafts. No way for me to know though because deleted stuff is in a black hole. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 03:52, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:A lot of Draft SPAM is created for the [[SEO]] benefits created by the links and mirrors. A Wikipedia link from Draft space is almost as good as from mainspace, and well meaning editors who promote keeping SPAM around in Draft are only facilitating the abuse of the site by Spammers. I'm a big advocate of promoting the less than perfect but notable pages for the big world of editors to work on, but the chances of either a disinterested or connected editor rewriting a topic that meets G11 are slim to none. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 07:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::How are SEO benefits achieved in these cases? I thought draft space is not indexed by Google and others, so links from there should not turn up? If there are really SEO benefits, maybe we can find a technical solution to prevent that, thus eliminating the incentive to create such drafts. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:::No index links are an important part of sculpting inbound link profiles for SEO. Been that way for a few years now. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 09:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:Quite a lot of G11 spam in draftspace is lightly edited press releases, i.e [[WP:COPYVIO]]s; many or I'd say most are on non-notable topics anyhow; and for things that meet G11 criteria it is better to start anew. The main thing with spam is that even removing the buzzwords and making it not obviously spammy doesn't really fix the issue; it just hides it. To write a neutral article one must start with the reasonable intention of doing so with multiple independent and indepth sources. [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|pingó mió]]) 08:04, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::I strongly disagree. Many articles started and start out without sources and with POV language because they are oftentimes created by enthusiasts and fans that want to tell the world about how great this or that is. In many cases, we wouldn't have strong, well written articles if no one had started a bad article first that someone thought worth to improve or that the creator has later returned to fix when they gained more experience. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:22, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::: Yes, this is broadly true. I would normally only go for G11 in draft where there is either sockpuppetry or COI/UPE. <b>[[User Talk:JzG|Guy]]</b> <small>([[User:JzG/help|Help!]])</small> 08:44, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::::COI/UPE is the root of nearly all G11 drafts. Random 3rd parties don't tend to create SPAM. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 08:54, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:::Certainly, articles without sources and issues of promotional or fan POV can become good, that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm more talking about articles like "Bizco provides the best furniture solutions..contact us at" sort of stuff, where it obvious the goal is to spam wikipedia, and not merely an enthusiast writing in a fan perspective; for those articles there is no value in their content because it is better to start afresh, and the editor is very unlikely to be able to rewrite that into something useful (if there is any utility there - the vast majority of companies spammed are not notable). I haven't really found in my experience, or at-least I can't recall any cases of merely an enthusiast or fan creating an article that meets the G11 bar and I'm not going to tag G11 things created by a fan, but most G11able stuff in draftspace is a obviously a COI or UPE editor spamming non-notable companies or similar [[User:Galobtter|Galobtter]] ([[User talk:Galobtter|pingó mió]]) 13:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
* Wasn’t there a consensus against COI/UPE being speediable demonstrated on this page earlier this year? —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 09:27, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
*:G11 has and still does require the text to be promotional, not the intent. What Legacypac probably means is that in many cases of COI/UPE, the text screams spam as well, thus making them eligible for G11 in general. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 09:57, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
*I think ''all'' speedy deletion criteria (other than copyvios and G7s) should be applied in draft space with a very light touch. Certainly nothing in draft space should be tagged for G11 speedy deletion until the author has been given a chance to improve it (i.e. it's had a {{temp|advert}} or similar on it for a month ''and'' the concerns have been explained on the talk page) unless there is evidence of bad faith (not suspicion, not absence of evidence of good faith) and . It is far, far better that we have a little bit of spam in draft space for a short while than we throw away good faith articles that start out spammy. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:08, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::I've tagged several Drafts G11 just today. There is no point trying to get a spammer to rewrite their spam especially when the topic is unlikely to be notable anyway. I don't think anyone is throwing out good faith articles that start out spammy. I see plenty of G11 material just rejected and not CSD'd (on resubmission) and I personally only CSD the most clear cut cases, often after several rejections for being promotional. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
*I have tagged a number of drafts for G11 when they are very obviously never going to be accepted (eg: "Tyler-Courtney Jones is a 16-year old YouTube Instagrammer. He likes Ed Sheerhan and wants to grow up to be a singer like him. His songs are going to revolutionise the singer-songwriter industry, and he is absolutely and supremely confident he will be the next big thing. Tyler-Courtney's next shows are scheduled to be the Royston Vasey Youth Club and St Cuthbert's School for Boys Christmas fair") or a seriously bad idea to exist on Wikipedia full-stop (eg: "Crazy Maisie (b. Chardonnay Aimee Chavwick, 29 September 2001) is a political activist and adult actress who has defended the right of women in the porn industry. She has appeared in [big list of wholly inappropriate and NSFW titles]. She signed an exclusive deal with the ''[[Sunday Sport]]'' so she could pose nude on her 16th birthday" - with no sources outside two tabloid newspapers) ... anyway, you get the idea. These sort of instances are rare. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 13:24, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
I've also noticed on quite a few occasions that spammers/UPEs were using draft space to duck autoconfirmed. They would create the article in ten edits, wait four days, and then promptly either copy and paste or move it to mainspace. Draft space is not for the storage of inappropriate material, including blatant ads. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 13:35, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:{{u|Seraphimblade}}, Can they play the same game in User space? ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 19:47, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:::Yes [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:06, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::{{u|Kvng}}, yes, and I've seen that done too. Fortunately, at least in the cases I saw, a patroller caught on when it got moved to mainspace and tagged it, but still better that it didn't happen at all. [[User:Seraphimblade|Seraphimblade]] <small><sup>[[User talk:Seraphimblade|Talk to me]]</sup></small> 20:59, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
:::There are lots of ways a spammer can go to get auto or extended confirmed. Having a non-deleted record of their edits does help provide context when investigating someone for the non-admin among us. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 00:58, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
:::Incubation of spam does not seem to be a compelling reason to use G11 in Draft space. What {{u|Legacypac}} said earlier about the noindex SEO loophole is the only strong argument I've seen here. Is it possible to work with Google to close that loophole in Draft space? Arguments about keeping Draft space tidy don't hold water for me because of G13. AfC has recently implemented a ''reject'' process which can kill zombie drafts. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 17:06, 10 October 2018 (UTC)
* I'm probably one of the more prolific [[User:Dodger67/CSD log|wielders of the G11 stick]] at AFC, I've tagged thousands of blatant [[WP:Vanispamcruftisement]] drafts, very few were turned down by the second opinion admins. Quite frankly this idea can only come from someone who has absolutely no clue at all about the meaning of the "Great Firehose Of Ordure (GFOO)" appellation. [[User:Dodger67|Roger (Dodger67)]] ([[User talk:Dodger67|talk]]) 16:31, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
::The last handful of drafts I tagged as G11 were [[Draft:Hannah Sneddon]], [[Draft:Kimberly Minatti]], [[Draft:Connor Murray]] and [[Draft:Maggie Claydon]] - all of which were deleted by other administrators. And as discussed on [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Women in Red]], I'm currently doing a review of biographies of women to see if any declined drafts can be improved and expanded to the point of acceptance. [[User:Ritchie333|<b style="color:#7F007F">Ritchie333</b>]] [[User talk:Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(talk)</sup>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ritchie333|<sup style="color:#7F007F">(cont)</sup>]] 16:38, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
*I do delete drafts under G11 but I try to apply a more lenient standard than I would in mainspace. I'd be happy with amending the policy to say something along those lines. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 21:10, 9 October 2018 (UTC)
*I use this also, and in fact I urge that it be used a little more. But as I understand it , the standard for promotionalism in Draft this has always been more permissive. Permissive as it may be, still some drafts are going to be complete advertisements, & suitable for deletion as G11. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 05:16, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
===Test case===
I just started reviewing draft articles as part of AfC, and here are a couple test cases:
*[[Draft:HOLLA Group]]
*[[Draft:Association of Imaging Producers & Equipment Suppliers]]
The first one is written by a SPA with two edits total; in the queue for 7 weeks; non-notable company & very promotional. Would you guys tag is for G11/A7? The advantage of tagging vs declining would be to take the draft out of the queue so that another AfC reviewer can move onto something else. The second draft is pretty much the same situation. None would survive AfD if moved to main space. I would appreciate feedback on these two items. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 01:42, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
*HOLLA Group may well be notable. Look at the range of highly credible media coverage and the scale of the downloads they have had. I might approve it with a little more checking.
*AIPES is an industry association with close ties to the EU and some sort of oversight or advisory role in the EU. Not really a commercial promotion situation, though associations do need to promote themselves to some extent. I'd want to see some independant coverage on them and a trim on the organization details before approving the page. It has promise. I would not tag either G11 - there are tons of better candidates for G11 in Draft. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:37, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
*I agree with {{u|K.e.coffman}} that HOLLA is not notable given lack of articles about it rather than product and my support of [[WP:INHERITORG]] as part of [[WP:NCORP]]. I would G11 in mainspace and decline in draft.{{pb}} I would not tag AIPES as G11 in either draft or mainspace and can find indicators of notability without too much trouble. If I found in mainsapce I would take a weed wacker to much of the article as not encyclopedic but depending on what a deeper investigation of notability uncovered either mark it as reviewed (or reviewed with a notability tag if I thought it a close call) or tag it with notability and leave it unreviewed. It's very unlikely I would nominate for AfD. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 02:49, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
:There are preferred [[WP:ATD]]s for both of these. The idea that not deleting these clogs the AfC pipeline assumes that when declined, these will be be promptly resubmitted without substantial improvement. Sometimes that happens. Mostly the author either abandons or makes some improvements and not usually immediately. If resubmitted, it is not too much work for subsequent reviewers to look at the diffs and determine whether to quickly reject again or have a deeper look. This is not clogging, this is what we do at AfC, help authors improve their drafts. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 01:24, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
*Neither are hopeless. HOLLA offers the choice of writing the article about the company or the product. A more knowledgable promotional editor would in fact have done it on the product, because in article space software is not susceptible to A7. It would be fairly easy to turn the present article into an article on the product, and the worst promotionalism could be removed. whether it will ever end up an acceptable article depends upon someone who knows and cares working on it. For now, it should get declined. the article on the organization is like many other similar ones: they are very hard to find sources for that pass NCORP, and they are hard to write non-promotionally without being directory entries. Sometimes they are kept at AfD nonetheless if the organization is sufficiently important. It should be declined, with a request for references and to tone down some of the claims of importance. G11 is for worse than these two--there enough of them to make it worthwhile to look at the new submissions, now that it is so easy to do so, and get the very worst out of the pipeline as soon as possible. In terms of the spammers, it can have a good effect to reject them as early as possible. '''[[User:DGG| DGG]]''' ([[User talk:DGG| talk ]]) 05:27, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
*I don't think either of those qualifies for speedy deletion in draft space. While both have promotional wording it's not bad enough to avoid giving the author the benefit of the doubt in draft space. The second one is getting very close to the point where I'd be prepared to delete it in mainspace under G11 though, there isn't much text in it which isn't promotionally worded. This doesn't mean they should be accepted or moved to mainspace though. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 10:14, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
There seems to be consensus here that these are not great G11 candidates. I hear from other AfC reviewers that their G11 proposals rarely get kicked back by administrators. So, I'm interested to hear what our CSD administrators would have done if either of these had been tagged for G11. ~[[User:Kvng|Kvng]] ([[User talk:Kvng|talk]]) 14:52, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
*Thank you all for the feedback; I will go ahead and decline the drafts on advertisement grounds. [[User:K.e.coffman|K.e.coffman]] ([[User talk:K.e.coffman|talk]]) 02:15, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
===Weird Question About Questioning G11 Tags on Drafts===
While we are on the subject of tagging drafts as G11, which I in general support, I have a question. Occasionally, in reviewing AFC, I see a draft that has been tagged as [[WP:G11|G11]], but is still pending AFC review, and, on my review, I disagree with the G11, but think that the draft is not suitable for article space and may or may not ever be ready for article space. I decline the draft, for notability reasons, and either as 'adv' or as 'npov'. So far, so good. But I disagree with the G11. Sometimes I have contested the G11, but have left the G11 tag on the draft, and it usually then goes away, and without a comment that the challenge was denied. Either the reviewing admin doesn't read the talk page, or the reviewing admin has lower standards of G11 than I do. So, in the future, should I continue to contest the speedy deletion using the button for the purpose (and wonder whether the statement is actually read), or should I actually pull the G11 tag? I am very reluctant to pull a CSD tag that was applied in good faith by another reviewer. I think that if a reviewer thinks that a page should be speedy-reviewed, I should let an admin speedy-review the page. But I now don't know if this means that the admin will actually read the talk page challenge, in which case I should challenge on the talk page, or if the admin only looks at the draft page and the tag itself.
So: Should I continue to question what I think are unduly harsh G11s, or should I pull them?
:I just reviewed language around this today as I had not contested a speedy deletion claim in draft space before. The clearest statement of policy I found came from this very page: "{{tq|'''The creator of a page may not remove a speedy deletion tag''' from it. Only an editor who is not the creator of a page may do so.}}" (formating in the original). As I was not the creator of the page I felt I was in the clear to remove the tag and so I did. Best, [[User:Barkeep49|Barkeep49]] ([[User_talk:Barkeep49|talk]]) 02:16, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
The Admin will need to also delete the talkpage, so hopefully they read it. I'm in the habit of G11ing spam without declining the page first. It seems more direct/less encouraging. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 02:53, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
:Robert, if you believe the draft does not rise to the level of G11 then you should remove the speedy deletion tag from it. [[:en:User talk:GB fan|~ GB fan]] 10:32, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
:If you believe that any page tagged for any speedy deletion criteria does noes not meet the requirements of that criteria then you should always (unless you are the author of the page) remove the tag. This applies regardless of namespace or criteria. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 10:50, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
::If you do remove a speedy tag but any other speedy tag applies you should retag it. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 06:01, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
== Speedy deletion for circular redirect ([[WP:SELFRED]]) ==
Should this kind or redirect be given its own criteria ([https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/2014_Asian_Para_Games&hidetrans=1&hidelinks=1 example])? A user created some of them only to make the link blue on [[2014 Asian Para Games]], main article. [[User:Hddty.|Hddty.]] ([[User talk:Hddty.|talk]]) 07:54, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
:No. These are not speedy-worthy redirects. The ''links'' can be removed from the main article but these kinds of articles ("SPORT at EVENT") follow an established pattern and the creating editor probably just wanted to emulate this. Plus, those are redirects with potential, i.e. someone might want to create those sub-articles later. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 08:11, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
:I believe these should be deleted in order to make the link red (to encourage article creation), but that is a matter for [[WP:RFD]], not for speedy criteria. —'''[[User:Kusma|Kusma]]''' ([[User talk:Kusma|t]]·[[Special:Contributions/Kusma|c]]) 12:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
== Semi-protected edit request on 24 October 2018 ==
{{edit semi-protected|Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion|answered=yes}}
[[User:Ttgg66|Ttgg66]] ([[User talk:Ttgg66|talk]]) 20:27, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
{{collapse top}}
Use common sense
"WP:COMMON" redirects here. For other uses, see WP:COMMON (disambiguation).
Shortcuts
WP:UCS
WP:COMMON
WP:SENSE
WP:COMMONSENSE
Wikipedia has many policies or what many consider "rules". Instead of following every rule, it is acceptable to use common sense as you go about editing. Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective, so there are times when it is better to ignore a rule. Even if a contribution "violates" the precise wording of a rule, it might still be a good contribution. Similarly, just because something is not forbidden in a written document, or is even explicitly permitted, doesn't mean it's a good idea in the given situation. Our goal is to improve Wikipedia so that it better informs readers. Being able to articulate "common sense" reasons why a change helps the encyclopedia is good, and editors should not ignore those reasons because they don't include a bunch of policy shortcuts. The principle of the rules—to make Wikipedia and its sister projects thrive—is more important than the letter. Editors must use their best judgment.
Why isn't "use common sense" an official policy? It doesn't need to be; as a fundamental principle, it is above any policy.
There is no common sense
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WP:NOCOMMON
Good sense is of all things in the world the most equally distributed, for everybody thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those most difficult to please in all other matters never desire more of it than they already possess.
— René Descartes[10]
When advancing a position or justifying an action, base your argument on existing agreements, community foundation issues, and the interests of the encyclopedia, not your own common sense. Exhorting another editor to "just use common sense" is likely to be taken as insulting, for good reasons. If in a particular case you feel that literally following a rule harms the encyclopedia, or that doing something which the rules technically allow degrades it, then instead of telling someone who disagrees to use common sense, just focus on explaining why ignoring the rules will improve Wikipedia in that instance.
Be careful about citing this principle too aggressively. While it's quite acceptable to explain your own actions by saying, "it seemed like common sense to me", you should be careful not to imply that other editors are lacking in common sense, which may be seen as uncivil. Wikipedians come from diverse ethnic, religious, political, cultural and ideological backgrounds and have vastly different perceptions. Other editors are likely to ascribe very different meanings and values to words and concepts than you, so try to state your arguments as fully as possible. Citing concrete policies and guidelines is likely to be more effective than simply citing "common sense" and leaving it at that.
{{collapse bottom}}
*[[File:X mark.svg|18px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done'''<!--template:not done--> This isn't an edit request, it's a text dump from [[WP:COMMON]]. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 20:33, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
== Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2018 ==
{{edit semi-protected|answered=yes}}
Under the fourth paragraph in the "Introduction to criteria" section, change "You can copy and paste such warnings to the talk pages of the creators and major contributors, choose from others listed at [[:Category:CSD warning templates]], or place the unified warning template, {{Tlxs|CSD-warn|{{Var|csd}}|''Page name''}}, which allows you to tailor your warning under any particular criterion by replacing <code>{{Var|csd}}</code> with the associated criterion abbreviation (e.g. g4, a7)." to "You can copy and paste such warnings to the talk pages of the creators and major contributors or choose from others listed at Category:CSD warning templates."
I think this change is a good idea because I noticed the CSD-warn template has been deleted as an "unused template." Therefore, it should not be mentioned here anymore. [[Special:Contributions/24.5.8.227|24.5.8.227]] ([[User talk:24.5.8.227|talk]]) 00:43, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
:This request seems in good faith, but I'm bothered that a substable template was speedy-deleted because it is not in-use. Does anyone watching this page wish to dispute that deletion either with RHaworth or at [[WP:DRV]]? --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 00:57, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:'''<!-- Template:ESp --> the template has been restored. [[User:Feminist|feminist]] ([[User talk:Feminist|talk]]) 18:27, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
== Proposal to merge db-blankdraft into G13 ==
Now that pretty much all drafts are under the purview of AfC, it seems unnecessary to have {{tl|db-blankdraft}} separated out into its own category with different deletion criteria from what we're using on draftspace drafts. I think it would be better if we eliminated {{tl|db-blankdraft}} and then add a new criteria under G13 allowing any draft, userspace or draftspace, containing only default placeholder text to be deleted after six months of no edits. That would bring it in line with how AfC drafts are currently being handled. --[[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 07:21, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*What would be the benefit? When blank or near blank Draft space pages come up unedited 6 months we G13 them anyway. In userspace we use "blank draft" and in Draft space G2 test edit to delete blank submissions. Perhaps we should extend Blank Draft over Draft space in Twinkle so we can more accurately tag the blank pages. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 08:00, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*:{{ping|Legacypac}} Right now, db-blankdraft requires a full year without any edits from the page creator, while G13 only requires six months without edits ''to the page''. The only policy difference I'm proposing is changing the db-blankdraft requirements to the same "six months without page edits" we're using with G13 and extending it over draftspace as well. [[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 08:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
For reference, here's what I'm proposing as a rewritten G13:
{{blockquote|This applies to any pages in the [[WP:Drafts|draft namespace]], any pages in [[WP:UD|userspace]] with the {{Tl|AFC submission}} template that are not currently pending review, and any drafts in either namespace with no content except the placeholder text generated by the [[WP:AZ|article wizard]] that have not been edited (excluding bot edits) in over six months. Redirects are excluded from G13 deletion. Drafts deleted in this manner may be restored upon request by following the procedure at [[Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion/G13]].}}
All it really is is consolidating and slightly generalizing existing deletion policies to make it easier to eliminate pure, unnecessary trash. [[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 08:14, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' totally logical. So we would depreciate the G6 blank draft criteria then. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 08:27, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*Whatever "db-blankdraft" is, it's not G6. (Except for the folks who consider G6 to be "anything I can delete without anyone except maybe some random influenceless newbie raising a fuss" or "any new speedy deletion criterion I can sneak in without gaining consensus for a new speedy deletion criterion".) I also agree that this is better than mistagging such pages as test edits. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 12:05, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
**On a bit more reflection, I'm more in favor of generalizing A3 to apply to most non-talk namespaces. We'd have to identify a few classes of pages to exclude - categories, sandboxes, and galleries of (free) images in userspace spring to mind. I still support this proposal, as written, as a second choice. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 13:08, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
***Also needing to be excluded would be redirects and soft redirects, files and file description pages (especially for files hosted at Commons), templates (especially ones that don't display anything much/are just a framework + a transcluded documentation page), user and user talk pages. I don't think this would be an improvement. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 15:31, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. G6 is by far the worst CSD criterion we have for misuse per Cryptic and anything that moves us a step closer to actually make it meet the standards required of new criteria is a good thing. Moving one aspect of it to a different criteria where it fits better is an example of such a step. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:39, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' - This is a clear improvement over the status quo. [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 17:07, 2 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per {{u|Thryduulf}}. Word for word. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''([[User:Amorymeltzer|u]] • [[User talk:Amorymeltzer|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Amorymeltzer|c]])''</small> 00:52, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' Makes sense, less confusing [[User:Funplussmart|funplussmart]] ([[User talk:Funplussmart|talk]]) 15:58, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' logical. [[User:Cabayi|Cabayi]] ([[User talk:Cabayi|talk]]) 16:02, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Q''' Would this mean blank drafts would wait 6 months before being deleted? I assume I'm missing something... [[User:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''——'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:black">'''''SerialNumber'''''</span>]][[User talk:Serial Number 54129|<span style="color:#8B0000">'''''54129'''''</span>]] 16:03, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
**Yes. In draftspace and for userspace drafts with AFC templates, that's no different from the status quo. For userspace drafts without AFC templates, this proposal shortens it from sitting for a year (or longer, if the author edits other pages; or shorter, if you can con an admin into deleting it immediately). —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 16:14, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
(Ec) :I am in favor of reducing the wait from one year after the editor has been active" (a silly long time) to "6 months after the userspace blank draft was created." For Draft space blank submissions to AfC I see no reason to retain these test edits for more than a few minutes. The deleted page can always be easily recreated but almost never are. I CSD hundreds of blank pages submitted to AfC every few months to reduce the G13 burden and they never come back. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 16:20, 3 November 2018 (UTC)
== Redirects in the File: namespace G6 → R4 ==
{{Rfc|policy|rfcid=B4E556A}}
[[WP:CSD#G6|Criterion G6]] is overloaded with many different things all lumped together as "uncontroversial maintenance" and is the most frequently abused of all criteria. It would never be approved if proposed as is today. The best way to solve this, in my opinion, is to unbundle the various different reasons into separate criteria that are individually objective. I'm not proposing to do this all at once, but to work on it step-by-step so that objections to one aspect don't derail the whole thing.
One aspect of G6 stands out as being a particularly poor fit with the rest: "Deleting redirects in the "File:" namespace with the same name as a file or redirect at Commons, provided the redirect on Wikipedia has no file links (unless the links are obviously intended for the file or redirect at Commons)." Accordingly I propose to move this criterion, without any changes, from G6 to a new R4 for these reasons:
*It deals only with redirects, and is thus where someone will look for it
*The general footer to the R criteria (don't speedy delete redirects with significant history, use RfD for redirects that don't meet the criteria) apply to these redirects equally with others
*It contains requirements that are significantly different to other things deleted using G6
*This isn't really "maintenance" in the same sense as other aspects of G6 (e.g. pages created in error/in the wrong place, etc)
*Deletion summaries will become more useful.
This does not change what can be speedy deleted, just under which criterion is gets speedy deleted. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:43, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
:'''Support''' - This appears to be a clean improvement. How often are redirects deleted under this particular provision of G6? [[User:Tazerdadog|Tazerdadog]] ([[User talk:Tazerdadog|talk]]) 15:02, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
::I don't know, but we see several that possibly could be come through RfD. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 17:16, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
:*Just a bit of history here: Back in 2015, there was (or is) a category that listed all of the pages on Wikipedia in the "File:" namespace that had the same name as a page on Wikimedia Commons; the category contained a few hundred or thousand pages. After consensus was established around that time for creating a [[WP:CSD]] criterion for deleting such pages that are ''redirects'', I created {{Tl|Db-redircom}}. Afterwards, that category was essentially emptied by a handful of editors using {{Tl|Db-redircom}}. However, as of present day, I don’t think pages in the "File:" namespace on Wikipedia with the same name as a page on Wikimedia Commons get created that often ... most likely as a result of the 2015 clearing of the aforementioned backlogged category. [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 15:44, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
:'''Support''' not an area I work but this appears more logical [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 20:30, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. I knew there was a CSD for this, but I was looking in the wrong areas and couldn't find it until [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_November_5&diff=867564944&oldid=867542871 it was pointed out] that this falls under G6. Hopefully moving it over will be more intuitive to prevent this in the future. --[[User:Tavix| <span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">'''T'''avix</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Tavix|<span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">talk</span>]])</sup> 15:14, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
**{{replyto|Tavix}} would a note in the Files: section footer along the lines of "For redirects in the file namespace with the same name as files on Commons, see criterion R4" be useful do you think? [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:17, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
***I certainly would not be opposed to such a note. To clarify, do you want to add it to the notes at [[WP:FCSD]]? --[[User:Tavix| <span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">'''T'''avix</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Tavix|<span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">talk</span>]])</sup> 14:23, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
****I was thinking of placing it at the end of the list of criteria, but if others prefer the top then I'm perfectly happy with that. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 15:29, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''. Whatever gets the concept behind {{Tl|Db-redircom}} more exposure. (Disclaimer: the diff that [[User:Tavix|Tavix]] mentioned in the previous comment was an edit I made.) [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 15:30, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
*<s>'''Neutral'''.</s> I don't think unbundling is necessary - this ''is'' uncontroversial maintenance, caused by incremental software changes over nearly two decades. However, moving this into the ''redirects'' section of CSD does sound like a good idea. [[User:Deryck Chan|Deryck]][[User talk:Deryck Chan| C.]] 16:25, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
*:I think that is the point - to be in the Redirects section it has to be split from G6 and given an R designation. I don't know how often this is used. There was mention of a category tracking these cases. Does that still exist? Do we track how many times each CSD is used? [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 22:24, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
*:{{replyto|Deryck Chan}} I'm not disputing it is "uncontroversial maintenance", I'm saying it's a different sort of maintenance to the examples given, applies to a narrower set of pages and very has different requirements to all other aspects of G6. G6 is not a dumping ground for everything that could be considered maintenance of some description - otherwise we might as well fold in G8, A3, F2, F10, C1 and U2. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*::Changing to '''weak support'''. I don't mind which section and what serial number we put this type of deletion under, but I'm not massively excited about unbundling either. What I don't want to see (in the foreseeable future?) is that we deprecate away G6 altogether. [[User:Deryck Chan|Deryck]][[User talk:Deryck Chan| C.]] 19:07, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*:::Personally I would like to see G6 completely deprecated as that's the only way I forsee the rampant abuse of it by some administrators will stop. Every aspect of it that is required would be transferred to a new, objective and focused criterion - speedy deletion is not and never has been intended to be a routine method of deletion - it is a narrow set of ''exceptions'' to the need to get consensus for every deletion, limited to those situations where consensus will ''always'' be in favour, not just what one admin thinks people probably wont object too strongly too. This is all independent of this proposal though. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom. ---- [[User:Patar knight|Patar knight]] - <sup>[[User talk:Patar knight|chat]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Patar knight|contributions]]</sub> 23:04, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support'''; this changes nothing about our practice and thus will have no practical effect whatsoever, so the only real question is "what will users find to be simpler". Putting it with redirects is definitely simpler than keeping it at G6. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:37, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*Good idea — Thryduulf sums up the benefits nicely throughout the comments. Wholeheartedly agree. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''([[User:Amorymeltzer|u]] • [[User talk:Amorymeltzer|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Amorymeltzer|c]])''</small> 21:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
== Proposal/RfC - Extend [[WP:U5]] to the draftspace ==
{{rfc|policy|rfcid=30DAB4C}}
I am going to propose that [[WP:U5]] gets extended to the draftspace. This is because the draftspace is being abused in a way that there are so many drafts being found daily which are basically [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]]. It is mainly point 5 of [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] which I am seeing in loads of drafts. Rule 5 of [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] is "Content for projects unrelated to Wikipedia. Do not store material unrelated to Wikipedia, including in userspace." and I am seeing that new users are using the draftspace in a way so that [[WP:U5]] can be escaped because [[WP:U5]] does not apply to the draftspace at the moment. If this is implemented, there will be less drafts coming to [[WP:MfD]] daily that could actually do with being speedily deleted per [[WP:U5]].
My new proposed wording for [[WP:U5]] is:
Pages in userspace or draftspace consisting of [[WP:NOTWEBHOST|writings, information, discussions, and/or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals]], where the owner has made few or no edits outside of [[Wikipedia:User pages|user pages]] and [[Wikipedia:Drafts|drafts]], with the exception of plausible drafts and pages adhering to [[Wikipedia:User pages#What may I have in my user pages?]].
[[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 17:21, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I also find these Drafts at AfC and otherwise regularly. I'm not sure that new accounts are researching our [[WP:NOTAWEBHOST]] policies and choosing Draft space over userspace to avoid U5 but we do channel new users toward Draftspace and a certian portion of these users post U5 type material. We need the ability to CSD this junk without wasting time at MFD even more in Draft then userspace because it often is submitted to AfC, and sometimes multiple times. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 17:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
* '''Comment''' U numbers only apply to userspace. I suggest deprecating U5 and replacing it with a G number, perhaps G15, worded to include userspace and draftspace as proposed. Purely to avoid confusion. — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 17:55, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Need examples''' - This proposal is based on the idea that MfD is being bogged down by drafts that could be speedied under U5 if it applied to drafts. To support this, we need to see examples a number of recent drafts that would be speedied under the current proposal but cannot be under any existing criteria. {{ping|Pkbwcgs}} can you give some examples of these "loads of drafts"? [[User:A2soup|A2soup]] ([[User talk:A2soup|talk]]) 17:58, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
**{{re|A2soup}} Things like [[Draft:Take care of your beauty]], [[Draft:How To Pass Nebosh IGC Exam in First Attempt?]], <s>[[Draft:How ICT has an effect on Society]]</s> and [[Draft:How I do control my thinking]] would be examples of drafts which would meet U5 if it were to be extended to the draftspace as they are not related to Wikipedia. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:04, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
***Right now we have to use G11 as a catch all to deal with instruction manuals, product specifications, team rosters, and all sorts of assorted non-articles that could fit this criteria. Anything that might be fictional can potentially be db-hoax tagged but could fit this criteria better. Occasionally someone posts something that is not an advert or hoax but certainly isn't ever going to be an article and then it is just left to get swept away by G13 in six months time. This new criteria would make it more transparent and easier to deal with the material we should not be hosting. — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 18:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' I have nominated a few of these drafts myself. Deprecate U5 and replace it with G15 as per Frayae. [[User:CoolSkittle|<span style="background-color: blue; color: orange">CoolSkittle</span>]] ([[User talk:CoolSkittle|talk]]) 18:15, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Commment''' indeed G15. Most of this U5 stuff can be speedied out of Article space on some other A? Criteria but Wikipedia, Template and other spaces can be used for webhosting too. The main issue is Draft space though because we channel new accts there. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 18:19, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
** {{re|Legacypac}} It is very rare to see U5-related stuff in the mainspace because a user has to be autoconfirmed to create a page in the mainspace on Wikipedia. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:34, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*** I am sure G14 doesn't exist yet? [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:32, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
**** G14 may not exist as enacted policy, but there are so many proposals for a G14 with various different attributes in the archives that I feel it would be wiser and less confusing to go one number up and match U5 with G15. — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 18:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I suspect this will be used to delete drafts which are just very bad, instead of just those which are NOTWEBHOST violations. Some of the examples cited above are [[WP:OR|original essays]] or violations of [[WP:NOT#HOWTO]]. In other words they are attempts to write Wikipedia articles by people who just don't know how Wikipedia works. That doesn't make them [[WP:NOT#WEBHOST]] violations, unless they've been hanging around for long enough (in which case G13 would apply). '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 18:50, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Solution in search of a problem. MFD does not seem overrun by such drafts with the examples cited having been created weeks apart. Also, what Hut 8.5 said, the potential for abuse seems far too high because new users might very well write bad drafts that get better later. I also fail to see why G13 can't handle them. Where is the pressing need to remove them asap? Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 18:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
::SoWhy have you participated in more than 25 MfDs yet? Why are you commenting on an area you have little experience with?
:: Hut - Any CSD can be abused, all we are talking about is location of the unsuitable material. If it is U5 in userspace why should it be ok in Draftspace which is a more collabertive environment. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 19:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::Anyone can see that there are not that many MFDs. One does not have to participate in them to do so. [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 19:31, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::Sure, any CSD can be abused, but if a CSD is particularly prone to abuse than that's a reason not to have it. I'm not a particular fan of U5 in userspace, to be honest, but in draft space I think there's a higher chance that the author was at least trying to write an article. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 20:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::: {{re|Hut 8.5}} Is a [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] violation okay in the draftspace? Why do we have [[WP:U5]] in the userspace but not in the draftspace? The draftspace is easily abused for [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]]. I have a question. If I see a personal profile of a user in the draftspace then what should I do? We can't leave these sorts of stuff in the draftspace. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 20:43, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::You can get inappropriate material in draft space deleted at [[WP:MFD]] if it does not qualify for speedy deletion. Speedy deletion criteria are only good for narrow cases where people agree that pages meeting the criterion should be deleted. This suggestion shows a strong likelihood that it will be used to delete content which doesn't actually fall foul of [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]], which makes it a bad idea. NOTWEBHOST doesn't apply to attempts to write encyclopedia articles, at least not unless abandoned, and even in this discussion there are suggestions that this criterion will be used to delete pages of this type. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 21:40, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::: {{re|Hut 8.5}} Thanks for your reply. Yes it is clear that NOTWEBHOST doesn't apply for attempts to write an article. That is certain. However, [[WP:MFD]] is becoming flooded when taking inappropriate material there and most of it is [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] stuff which can be eliminated by extending [[WP:U5]] to the draftspace. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 21:47, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I don't think it's being "flooded" with this stuff at all. There are plenty of people trying to get drafts deleted for being essays, how-to guides, dictionary definitions, etc but none of those equate to NOTWEBHOST. So either the criterion will be useless for those pages or it will be used to bring a criterion of "inappropriate draft" in through the back door. The first option makes it useless and the second one would be actively harmful. Bear in mind that drafts will be deleted after six months unless someone is working on them anyway, there's no particular need to bring them to MfD in the first place most of the time. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 21:56, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
** {{re|Hut 8.5}} If a user writes about personal stuff in the draftspace then what speedy deletion criterion should be used? U5 is only applicable to the userspace. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 19:07, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*** [[WP:UP#NOT]] says that personal opinions and "Extensive writings and material on topics having virtually no chance whatsoever of being directly useful to the project, its community, or an encyclopedia article" are writings, information, discussions, and activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals which is what [[WP:U5]] is about and I see those things in the draftspace. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 19:11, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
****You're assuming that just because something is inappropriate or deletable then there must be a speedy deletion criterion for it. It doesn't work that way. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 20:28, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Comment''' [[Draft:How ICT has an effect on Society]], an example given above, was ''declined'' at AFC and the author invited to resubmit. Surely in this circumstance speedy deletion would be out of the question. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 19:46, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Hut 8.5. --[[User:Tavix| <span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">'''T'''avix</span>]] <sup>([[User talk:Tavix|<span style="color:#000080; font-family:georgia">talk</span>]])</sup> 21:57, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Hut 8.5.--[[User:Bbb23|Bbb23]] ([[User talk:Bbb23|talk]]) 22:02, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
* This is bound to be unsuccessful like every single proposal I make is. I am pretty useless at making proposals and at everything. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 22:03, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. Complete overlap with G13. G13 works, with good pacing of notifications and ease of REFUND. No need to make speculative negative judgements on thin new unsubmitted drafts. If a draft does not meet any G* criterion, the six month G13 process suffices. NB. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:26, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
::G13 is for abandoned pages. U5 is for webhost inappropriate pages. You don't need to speculate on the pages this will apply too, they are clearly not appropriate. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 22:53, 12 November 2018 (UTC)
::* I have not seen any draftspace NOTWEBHOST violations that are so bad that they can't be left to the G13 process. I have seen draftspace NOTWEBHOST nominations at MfD where the nominator is making quick assumptions about the limited content and an psychoanalysis of the author. A mistake in these assumptions is more damaging to the project than leaving a silly NOTWEBHOST draft violation to expire and get deleted per G13. We created G13 with this exact sort of thing in mind. --[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 06:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' - Unnecessary. Truly problematic examples are covered sufficiently by other deletion criteria (CSD or otherwise). — <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 04:08, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose'''. I agree with the spirit behind this, but [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] is way too broad of a speedy deletion criteria, especially for a process that receives a lot of poorly formatted drafts from people who haven't yet gotten the hang of editing. As others have said, this will almost certainly just turn into an "eject drafts I don't like" button. I'm always going to be in favor of retaining drafts unless they are either obvious corpspam (G11) or it's abundantly clear they are no longer being improved (G13). Other than those two criteria, I'd rather draft deletions go through MfD. [[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 04:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per [[Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Draft:When can you claim that you’ve been in a country or state?]], and other supporting comments here by the editors who actually work in the draft space. I also support promoting this criterion to a "general" criterion. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 13:44, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' per Hut 8.5, SmokeyJoe and Nathan2055. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 18:11, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Support''' per nom and Legacypac. [[User:PrussianOwl|PrussianOwl]] ([[User talk:PrussianOwl|talk]]) 21:59, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*All the people supporting "per Hut" fail to realize we almost never see Hut around AfC or MfD so it's no skin off their back to make those who actually work in these areas do more busy work on NOTAWEBHOST violations. In fact, the regulars at AfC and MfD are mainly supporting based on experience and the Opposes are mostly editors without significant contributions to the AfC and MfD. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 22:09, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*:You say this as though the maintenance of draftspace (or interpretations thereof) is all that's at stake; as though it is separate from the value and usefulness of draftspace itself or the people who actually use it. I'd say that the opinions of people who use, want to use, or coach people through using draftspace (regardless of AfC), are at least as valuable. Nobody is obliged to engage in any particular maintenance task. As this is not articlespace and nobody who isn't looking for them will ever see the overwhelming majority of these pages, the benefit to be gained from deletion is considerably less, but the extent to which editors' experience is affected is the same. So having hoops in place that must be jumped through to delete something doesn't strike me as a bad thing, apart from the most obvious instances. A central problem to me is not whether or not the most egregious examples are pages that should be kept, but about a fundamental disagreement about what constitutes NOTWEBHOST. — <samp>[[User:Rhododendrites|<span style="font-size:90%;letter-spacing:1px;text-shadow:0px -1px 0px Indigo;">Rhododendrites</span>]] <sup style="font-size:80%;">[[User_talk:Rhododendrites|talk]]</sup></samp> \\ 23:36, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*:{{ec}} {{replyto|Legacypac}} the number of NOTWEBHOST (a vague and subjective collection criterion that new editors cannot be expected to know about) violations is not relevant here, the relevant factor is the number of good faith pages that are ''not'' violations that will get swept away and the number of newbies who will be [[WP:BITE|BITTEN]] and never return. Editor retention is already a problem, if the price of not making that worse is more work for some editors then that is a price worth paying ten times over. That you have failed to convince those of us who are not regulars at MfD that this is actually a problem that needs solving (let alone that this is the way to solve it) should tell you something. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:42, 13 November 2018 (UTC)
*: This is called an [[ad hominem]] fallacy--whether we do work there is irrelevant to the question of the work that should be done there. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:01, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
* '''Oppose''': Where the NOTWEBHOST is a critical issue, we have better CSD to apply. Where it is not a critical issue, G13 is sufficient for draft space. --[[User:Izno|Izno]] ([[User talk:Izno|talk]]) 02:04, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*No confidence that taggers - and admins, for that matter - will prove any better at identifying material plausibly intended as drafts in draftspace than they have in userspace. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 04:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{replyto|Pkbwcgs|Legacypac}} I've just had a look through every current [[WP:MFD]] listing. There are 33 pages in draft space, exactly 1 of which could be speedily deleted based on [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]]: [[Draft:Assignment Two(BF)]]. This is evidence that this criterion is ''not'' needed. As [[user:Hut 8.5|Hut 8.5]] notes above, there are many draft-space being nominated at MfD for other reasons - for example being essays, duplicates, covering non-notable subjects, etc. but these would not fall within the scope of this criterion so it would be either unused or abused. Of those others nominated, only around three quarters (at most) have no opposition to deletion - which is much too low for a speedy criterion which needs to be around 99% or greater, and at least half of those with no opposition are being deleted for subjective reasons that are unsuitable for speedy deletion. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 12:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
::{{Re|Thryduulf|Hut 8.5}} I understand that you are against this proposed G15 being implemented. Your arguments apply equally to the existing U5 criteria, and could be applied equally to deprecating U5 without a replacement. What do you say to this? — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 14:35, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::I'm not ideologically opposed to that, but I'd want to look at how often it is currently being used and what it is being used to delete before offering a firm view. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 14:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::{{Ec}} You didn't ask me, but in general I support deprecating U5 if it is not extended to the draft space. Before we had a draft: namespace it made sense that material completely unrelated to Wikipedia posted in an editor's userspace was CSDable, but now that users are just as likely to post this sort of material as a draft, the CSD restriction to userspace strikes me as ridiculous bureaucracy. If I post a plot guide to my [[Dungeons & Dragons|D&D]] campaign at [[User:PEIsquirrel/The Mystical Age Of The One Pine Tree In The Yard With The Good Nuts]] U5 can apply, but if I post the same content to [[Draft:The Great War Of The Glorious Chipmunks And The Vile Felines]] it has to go to MfD, and I find that distinction silly. Either NOTWEBHOST violations are speediable ''everywhere'', or they are not speediable ''anywhere''. [[User:Ivanvector|Ivanvector]] (<sup>[[User talk:Ivanvector|Talk]]</sup>/<sub>[[Special:Contributions/Ivanvector|Edits]]</sub>) 14:50, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
::::I completely agree with Ivan. There is a general opinion here that G15/U5 should not be used on drafts. Logically this would apply to all drafts or no drafts regardless of namespace as Ivan explains. — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 15:24, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::However, some of the opposition to this proposal was based on the fact that we already have a criterion (G13) that will take care of these drafts and that those in favor have imho not demonstrated ''why'' these drafts should go to MFD instead of waiting for them to become eligible for G13. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 15:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::: {{re|SoWhy}} Who wants to wait for six months to get rid of loads of drafts that are basically tons of junk? Basically, what G13 is doing is creating more work for admins as they have to delete tons of drafts everyday that meet G13 and the majority of those drafts are nothing but junk. Some of these are NOTWEBHOST violatinos, some of these are how-to guides, some of these are spam and I even saw a [[Draft:Assignment Two(BF)|homework assignment]] in the loads of piece of junk in AfC. Yes, there are very interesting and good articles created via AfC which is why it is a very useful process. However, it is so sad to see that loads of junk is in the draftspace as well. If you look at [[:Category:AfC submissions declined as jokes]], at least 90% of these can be speedy deleted without waiting six months. [[Draft:Alien exit on earth|Here]] is a classic example of what junk is. I tagged for speedy deletion [[WP:CSD#G3|as a blatant hoax]]. I also see [[:Category:AfC submissions declined as a test]] which is stuff that has zero chance of improvement. Basically, tons of useless rubbish that can be deleted but is [[WP:CSD#G2|G2]] valid for the draftspace? [[Draft:How many films did amitabh bachan did remade from another language|One draft]] which I tagged as [[WP:CSD#G2|G2]] has been deleted but I remember it was absolutely blank when I tagged it for deletion. However, does this mean the others can be deleted? If U5 is not going to the draftspace then we need a general criterion for deletion of junk in the draftspace. Look, [[:Category:AfC submissions declined as an advertisement|over 3,000 junk adverts]], [[:Category:AfC submissions declined as a dictionary definition|around 60 dictionary definitions which don't stand a chance because Wikipedia is not a dictionary]] and [[:Category:AfC submissions declined as blank|around 90 drafts which are blank and hopeless]] and all of these have to wait six months to be deleted? However, I '''oppose the deprecation of U5''' because I still tag web hosts in the userspace for speedy deletion and new users will use the userspace for personal stuff and web hosts which has no place on Wikipedia. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 16:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::I fail to understand your "creating more work for admins" argument. Whether a page is deleted under G13 or under your proposed G15, the work needed to delete the page is the same. Indeed, the workload is probably higher if the admin has to evaluate the draft against a complex set of criteria for "junk" as you call it instead of just checking whether it meets the requirements for G13. However, saying "who wants to wait?" does not really answer the question "why ''can't'' we wait?". As has been pointed out above, the problem is not that people are in favor of keeping "junk" but that "junk" or NOTWEBHOST or anything like that is too vague to serve as a useful criterion because we always have to take into account the potential for abuse. Thryduulf has summarized it pretty well above. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 16:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::: I still don't understand this. Why should junk be allowed in the draftspace but not anywhere else? [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 16:52, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::There is no "junk" speedy deletion criterion. That's why you want to create one, isn't it? But as pointed out multiple times, "junk" is highly subjective and the whole point of draftspace is to allow new editors to work on stuff that some might see as "junk" to the point that useful articles are created from this "junk". If they lose interest, those drafts will already be cleaned up by G13. But if just 1% of drafts deleted under such a criterion were actually viable articles and these editors leave the project as a consequence, this is far more harmful to the project as a whole. Regards [[User:SoWhy|<span style="color:#7A2F2F;font-variant:small-caps">So</span>]][[User talk:SoWhy|<span style="color:#474F84;font-variant:small-caps">Why</span>]] 17:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::: Never in the time I worked in the draftspace have I seen someone successfully create a mainspace article from junk. If a draft looks proper then it is more likely to go to the mainspace. A piece of junk that will not be ever improved shouldn't have to wait six months and what users tend to is to submit the same draft over and over again without any difference so that it won't get caught on the [[WP:CSD#G13|G13]] trap. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:17, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
::::::::::: The tendentious resubmission without improvement that you describe usually leads to deletion at MfD. Why shouldn't a piece of junk wait six months? Drafts are not indexed by search engines and are impossible to find unless you're looking for them, deletion doesn't free up any Wikimedia server space (the data is still retained). There is no benefit to the project of deleting drafts, except in the cases where they pose legal issues, which are already covered by other criteria. If even one draft that would have been improved is deleted or even one newbie that would have become a productive editor is driven away, then your proposal will be a net negative to the project. [[User:A2soup|A2soup]] ([[User talk:A2soup|talk]]) 19:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::::::::: What you said about new users improving a "junk" draft is extremely unlikely based on what I have seen so far in the draftspace. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 19:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*To answer the ping above, I would be quite happy to get rid of U5 entirely as I think it is frequently abused to delete acceptable stuff, but I doubt there's consensus for that here. Genuine NOTWEBHOST violations are going to be more common in userspace than in draftspace, if only because userspace is specifically marked as your personal area and because we do allow some content which isn't related to Wikipedia there. By contrast if you start a draft then you are explicitly setting out to write an article and it's more likely that you will end up with at least an attempt at an encyclopedia article.<br/>My main problem with this expansion though is that it is likely to be interpreted as "junk draft", which is a very bad idea for a speedy deletion criterion. Most of the examples which were cited to motivate this expansion above are not really NOTWEBHOST violations at all, and those are supposed to be the poster children for the criterion. I don't see any need to hurry to delete these drafts before the G13 expiry period. G13 is both more general and easier to assess than U5. The former only requires you to look at the edit history, the latter requires you to read the draft and come to some sort of judgement on it. If a draft is getting repeatedly resubmitted or recreated without any improvement then G13 wouldn't apply, but there aren't many of those cases. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 19:14, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Random question''': Do/did we have a G1'''4''' criterion? I cannot find evidence of its existence or former existence anywhere. [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 20:23, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
**{{re|Steel1943}} {{Tq|G14 may not exist as enacted policy, but there are so many proposals for a G14 with various different attributes in the archives that I feel it would be wiser and less confusing to go one number up and match U5 with G15. — Frayæ (Talk/Spjall) 18:39, 12 November 2018 (UTC)}} If that helps. — [[User:Frayae|Frayæ]] ([[User talk:Frayae|Talk]]/[[:is:Notandaspjall:Frayae|Spjall]]) 20:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
***{{Ping|Frayae}} Yep, sure enough. Either way, IMO, if this somehow turns into an enacted “G” criterion, it should be G1'''4''' since the only G14 that will matter is the one that becomes policy. [[User:Steel1943|<span style="color: #2F4F4F;">'''''Steel1943'''''</span>]] ([[User talk:Steel1943|talk]]) 20:30, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
****Agreed, the only that matters for numbering is what is enacted. I'm sure there were multiple G13 proposals unrelated to our current criteria (and G12s before that) and I know there were several R4 proposals that are completely different to the one that looks likely to gain consensus in the section above. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
Hut 8.5 says "By contrast if you start a draft then you are explicitly setting out to write an article and it's more likely that you will end up with at least an attempt at an encyclopedia article." which sounds like someone with a very different experience in Draftspace than me or a very different idea of what an article looks like.
[[User:A2soup]] your info on Draft is a few years out of date. You are correct Draft is not "indexed" but it is mirrored to sites that are indexed and Google does count links from no indexed pages toward importance. Google actually looks for no index links as part of a well rounded link profile for ranking. Wikipedia links are gold because Wikipedia is a high importance site. Spammers and link builders love your attitude. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 21:06, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*{{replyto|Legacypac}} Spam can already be speedy deleted under criterion G11 so that is completely irrelevant. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 21:10, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*That's good info that I wasn't aware of, thanks. I agree with Thryduulf that anything problematic in this regard is already covered by G11, but it does change my perception of draftspace a bit. [[User:A2soup|A2soup]] ([[User talk:A2soup|talk]]) 21:17, 14 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Note''' I have seen more [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] stuff in [[WP:MfD]] today so I am going to continue with this RfC. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:33, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
** Seriously, [[Draft:My Journey To Photography]] is another example of [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] and still there are so many opposers? Examples have been provided. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 18:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
*** Your examples have not demonstrated the need for this criterion. Per the very top of this page, CSD criteria need to meet 4 tests: Objective (several commenters have stated that they believe [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] is subjective and you have not refuted this), Uncontestable (nobody has even attempted to refute my comments about 75% (at most) of nominations at MFD currently being uncontested; others have also expressed doubts), Frequent (I saw only 1 of ~30 nominations of pages in the draft space at MFD that would fall under this proposed criterion, 1 nomination in ~7 days is ''far'' from frequent enough to justify a CSD criterion. Most of the other "junk" you want to speedy delete would not actually fit, further demonstrating that it is not an objective criterion) and Nonredundant (You have completely failed to convince me and many others that this is not redundant to G11 and G13). Using [[Draft:My Journey To Photography]] as an example: For starters it was speedily deleted as a copyright violation (so fails "non-redundant"), but if it wasn't a copyvio it could have been moved to become the userpage of the user submitting it (fails "Uncontestable"). Before you say that it would have been excessive as a userpage, that is a judgement call that requires consensus to determine (fails "objective"). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
***:{{u|Thryduulf}}'s points are exactly what I was trying to get across. [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] is one of the most subjective [[WP:NOT]] criteria, and we get a massive number of people unsure of how to properly write wiki articles in AfC. While there are blatant cases like [[Draft:My Journey To Photography]] (which still could have been userfied as {{u|Thryduulf}} said), I see absolutely no reason why we should not be encouraging people to write better articles and reformat valid submissions rather than throwing around the CSD hammer immediately. In my opinion, immediate CSD should only be used on drafts for 'blatant' corpspam (G11), copyvios (G12), and BLP violations (G10). There's no reason why we shouldn't wait the customary six months for everything else, bad drafts aren't indexed by Google and aren't causing anyone harm and at best helping someone complete a draft could help someone become a returning wiki editor rather than scaring them off. [[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 23:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
Hi. I'm proposing that a new criteria be added for speedy deletion of drafts, which are duplicated by an existing, rejected draft. Any thoughts? <span style="font-family:monospace;">'''<nowiki>'''[[</nowiki>[[User:CanonNi]]<nowiki>]]'''</nowiki>'''</span> ([[User talk:CanonNi|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/CanonNi|contribs]]) 04:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
::Perfect - userfy these Drafts. Then we can tag and delete them U5. There are plenty of promosing drafts no one works on improving, keeping hopeless ones around helps no one. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 23:37, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
: Just redirect rather than deleting. [[User:Pppery|* Pppery *]] [[User talk:Pppery|<sub style="color:#800000">it has begun...</sub>]] 04:27, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
:::Moving something to a different namespace for the sole purpose of getting it speedy deleted would be a blatant bad faith misuse of both page moves and speedy deletion. Anyone doing that should expect a very swift trip to ANI. It's also a strong argument in favour of deprecating U5. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 00:19, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
:'''[[WP:SRE]]'''. Rejected draft? Redirect to the rejected draft. Do not review, using AfC tools or otherwise, a content fork. If your redirecting is reverted, take it to MfD. Only MfD could generate compelling data to support a [[WP:NEWCSD]] for draftspace, like it did for G13. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 06:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
::::I wouldn't even be opposed to repealing U5 per the reasons given here. [[WP:NOTWEBHOST]] is not an objective criteria, and while I'm unsure of how to search the deletion log to verify this, I can't imagine we use it enough that MfD wouldn't be a substitute for the few cases where it does come up. G11 already covers obvious spam in all namespaces anyway, and outside of stuff G11 already covers, everything else U5 could be used on is subjective violations of [[WP:UPNOT]] that should be deleted through consensus anyway. [[User:Nathan2055|Nathan2055]]<sup>[[User talk:Nathan2055|talk]] - [[Special:Contributions/Nathan2055|contribs]]</sup> 00:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
:::::U5isusedalotinuserspacecleanup. Lotsofrandomjunkleftbynoncontributors.MfDdoes not needallthisworthlessjunkcomingthere. [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 01:02, 16November2018 (UTC)
:I agree with the others here. Redirecting requires no criterion and usually works. Same for drafts that duplicate an existing article (and are not someone actively working on an improvement to that article). —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 08:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
::::::Weneedthoughtohave an ''objective'' way of determiningwhatisandisnotspeedilydeletable"junk"though(andno,"junk"is not an objectivedescriptionofanything). ThemoreIreadinthisdiscussionthelessconvincedIam that U5isfit for purpose. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 01:51, 16November2018 (UTC)
:This isn't necessary. If it's a duplicate of another draft just redirect or merge them, if it's a duplicate of an article (and not an attempt to improve it) then redirect to that article. If it's actively causing problems for some reason, and doesn't somehow meet an existing criterion, then explain that at MfD. In every other case, doing anything other than waiting for G13 is a waste of time and effort. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 13:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
{{abot}}
::::::::<small>[[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]], see [https://www.newswatchman.com/news/article_237d680e-af6d-598c-b624-a6de0758b7cb.html this article] or [[Junk (ship)|this article]]; "junk" is objective descriptions for both :-) [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:46, 18 November 2018 (UTC)</small>
:::::::::<small>{{replyto|Nyttend}} fair point on the second link, but not really that useful for this discussion :P Unfortunately the first link is "unavailable due to legal reasons" in the UK so I'm unable to form a judgement. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:29, 18 November 2018 (UTC)</small>
::::::::::<small>Must be some nutty GDPR thing; I've previously heard of people in the UK hitting GDPR restrictions on ordinary US news reports, which this is. It's a news story entitled "Junk wins prosecutor's race", about the re-election of Robert Junk to office in rural [[Pike County, Ohio]]. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:33, 18 November 2018 (UTC)</small>
::::::: '''Update:''' Today, I came up with a new proposal at [[Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Proposal/RfC: Should we allow WP:PROD in the draftspace?]]. [[User:Pkbwcgs|Pkbwcgs]] ([[User talk:Pkbwcgs|talk]]) 16:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' I don't think there's much of a reason for this - I don't see web hosting issues at all at AfC, and I feel like it will be misused. [[User:SportingFlyer|SportingFlyer]] ''<span style="font-variant:small-caps">[[User talk:SportingFlyer|talk]]</span>'' 11:04, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
== U5timing ==
== G8 conflict? ==
Imagine that I create [[User talk:Nyttend/subpage]]. Assuming that there's no problem with the content I put on the page, it's a perfectly fine page; we wouldn't delete it on G8 merely because [[User:Nyttend/subpage]] doesn't exist. Now, imagine that I create [[User:Nyttend/subpage]] with problematic content, e.g. blatant spam. Someone comes around and deletes it. Should the talk page be deleted (because it's the talk page of a deleted page), or should it remain (because it's a valid subpage in userspace), or is this something we should just leave up to admin judgement?
Hello, just wanted to come here for a sanity check. I just ran across [[User:AviatorTJ/SpaceKraft]] in CAT:CSD; it would definitely qualify for U5 were it newly created, but it's seven years old. Is the criterion meant for pages of any age, or should it be used only for recent creations? The criterion doesn't say anything about dates, but on the other hand I don't remember the last time I saw a page tagged for U5 that wasn't rather newly created. It would help if we expanded the criterion with a date comment, either "should only be used for recent creations" or "may be used regardless of the date when a page was created". [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 20:40, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
Also, imagine that I create [[User:Nyttend/subpage]] with the content <code>#REDIRECT [[ebwtriypnry0tiw5mr4te5]]</code>, or I create the page with valid content and then replace it with the broken redirect. G8 (redirect to nonexistent page), or keep (established user's subpage), or admin judgement?
:There is no reason for any time limits. It takes time for us to find and action pages [[Wikipedia:WikiProject_Abandoned_Drafts/Stale_drafts]] [[User:Legacypac|Legacypac]] ([[User talk:Legacypac|talk]]) 20:47, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
:The criterion does not specify a time limit so there isn't one. It is irrelevant how long people take looking for things. I don't see it as a "Blatant misuse of Wikipedia as a web host" so I don't think U5 applies anyway. [[User:Thincat|Thincat]] ([[User talk:Thincat|talk]]) 21:16, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
:I might actually say the opposite — newer items are more likely to be something that might in good faith get worked on, while a userpage (from an editor that) has been inactive for seven years is unlikely to materialize into anything useful. On this specific case, it seems (from the user talk comments) like a fairly COI-driven attempt at a draft, probably for personal purposes, but not necessarily an explicitly U5-able page. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''([[User:Amorymeltzer|u]] • [[User talk:Amorymeltzer|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Amorymeltzer|c]])''</small> 21:20, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
* In implemention discussions for U5, time was well considered. Age of the page and time inactive of the user. The consensus was that neither was an important factor. This page is actually typical of the driving problem, old drive-by dumped NOTWEBHOST pages. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 21:22, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
** Per Amory, this is a (very poor) attempt at an encyclopaedia article not anything that can be deleted under U5 (nor should be subject to speedy deletion). And the disagreements here about whether it is or is not a NOTWEBHOST violation are a perfect example of why the criterion should not be expanded - it is not objective. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:32, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
***Deleted. Amory or Thryduulf, if either of you wants me to undelete it, I will; just don't call it junk, since "junk" is not an objective description of anything :-) Meanwhile, since ''consensus was that neither was an important factor'' when the criterion was created, I've [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?diff=869485653 expanded the criterion]. Any objections? [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:38, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
****PS, I'm leaving for church in a few minutes. If either of you two (or anyone else) wants it to be undeleted and I'm gone, feel free to leave a request at WP:REFUND, and remember to link this diff as proof that I'm fine with the undeletion. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 22:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
****Every speedy deletion criterion applies regardless of the age of the page, except for the handful which require a waiting period. '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 22:41, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
***** The objection is bloat. It’s a non-information statement. If every non-information statement were included, policy would be useless. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:44, 18 November 2018 (UTC). It also applies regardless of the length of inactivity of the user. Another non-information statement. —[[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:45, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
**** I’d call it borderline. [[User:SmokeyJoe|SmokeyJoe]] ([[User talk:SmokeyJoe|talk]]) 22:42, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
****{{re|Nyttend}} I think {{u|Thryduulf}} was referring to [[#Proposal/RfC - Extend WP:U5 to the draftspace]] above when saying it {{tq|should not be expanded}}. ~ <span style="color:#DF00A0">Amory</span><small style="color:#555"> ''([[User:Amorymeltzer|u]] • [[User talk:Amorymeltzer|t]] • [[Special:Contributions/Amorymeltzer|c]])''</small> 23:13, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
*****{{replyto|Amorymeltzer|Nyttend}} yes indeed my "should not be expanded" comment was about its applicability to other namespaces not the mention of the timing (I'm neutral about that as it's the least of the problems with the criteria). [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
****{{replyto|Nyttend}} That was very much not a U5 candidate - it was an abandoned draft encyclopaedia article. That it wasn't a very good draft and wouldn't have survived MfD is completely irrelevant. U5 is ''only'' for "writings, information, discussions, and/or activities not closely related to Wikipedia's goals" - any attempt at an encyclopaedia article is closely related to Wikipedia's goals. A very bad deletion. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 23:25, 18 November 2018 (UTC)
This just now came to mind as I was deleting spam in userspace; I deleted [[User talk:BassettHousePic/sandbox]] after deleting [[User:BassettHousePic/sandbox]], and I'm not sure this is always right. Here it was (the user's been spamblocked and has no other edits), but that won't always be the case, especially if the userpage is deleted via U1. [[User:Nyttend|Nyttend]] ([[User talk:Nyttend|talk]]) 23:25, 31 May 2024 (UTC)
== Proposal to expand R2 ==
:I usually end up deleting the user talk subpages, and mostly consider it a bug that the "G8: Talk page of a deleted page" option doesn't appear in the deletion dropdown and that there isn't a link to the talk page from the post-deletion screen. I guess the distinction is that [[User talk:Nyttend/Archive 42]] is primarily a subpage of [[User talk:Nyttend]]; while [[User talk:Nyttend/spam sandbox]], which typically consists of wikiproject templates from the article creation wizard, would primarily be the talk page of [[User:Nyttend/spam sandbox]].{{pb}}For a U1, or other ambiguous cases where the deletion would be unobjectionable to the page owner, I'd probably leave a note on their talk page or maybe in the deletion log to ask for deletion of the user talk subpage separately if desired. It hasn't come up. —[[User:Cryptic|Cryptic]] 00:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
::I'd perhaps say user talk pages should be an exception (as opposed to only archives of talk pages) to G8. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 06:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
:Hmm, my impression has always been that "User talk pages" in the "not eligible for G8" list only applies to the main user talk page and equivalents, i.e [[User talk:Nyttend]], but not automatically every talk page of a page in the user namespace. [[User:Jo-Jo Eumerus|Jo-Jo Eumerus]] ([[User talk:Jo-Jo Eumerus|talk]]) 07:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
::That's always been my impression too. Obviously there will be some exceptions (e.g. a theoretical [[user talk:Thryduulf/Subpage/Archive 1]]) that require admin discretion. The easiest (but non-ideal) ways to resolve this are probably using the {{temp|G8-exempt}} template proactively, and having a very low bar to restoration when asked. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 11:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
== Procedure for rejected draftified articles and declined/rejected AfC submissions improperly moved or copies to mainspace ==
One of the key distinguishing features of pages and namespaces is their intended audience: readers (content pages/namespaces) versus editors (administrative/technical pages/namespaces). As a general rule, and with some exceptions (e.g. shortcuts), we avoid redirects that transport readers from a content namespace to a non-content namespace. R2 currently covers the specific scenario of redirects from the main namespace to non-content namespaces (except the Wikipedia namespace).
So, this is something I've seen happen in some cases, usually involving inexperienced editors who have just gotten autoconfirmed.
I think that we should also avoid (and speedily delete) redirects that transport readers from any content namespace to the User namespace. These redirects can lend undue gravitas to user pages (and subpages) and as a result mislead readers into thinking they are part of the encyclopedia proper. Therefore, I propose to modify R2 as follows:
First there is the instance I've dealt with, where an article is draftified (when I've done it, it's usually for lacking references) and the author immediately recreates it by either moving it or, more often, by copy-paste. I haven't seen an exact consensus on what to do in this instance. Some have said db-copypaste might apply, but not all admins will delete in this instance. The other options would be re-draftify, PROD, or AfD.
The other instance would be declined or rejected AfC submissions that are moved or copied to mainspace without improvement. My understanding is that declined AfC pages that are resubmitted without improvement are usually summarily declined. If a submission is declined multiple times, that would indicate consensus that the page, in its present state, is unsuitable to be an article, putting it in a similar position to a page that meets G4. [[User:TornadoLGS|TornadoLGS]] ([[User talk:TornadoLGS|talk]]) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
<blockquote>This {{xt|criterion}} applies to redirects (apart from [[Wikipedia:Shortcut|shortcuts]]) from the [[Wikipedia:Main namespace|main namespace]] to any other namespace ''except'' the '''Category:''', '''Template:''', '''Wikipedia:''', '''Help:''' and '''Portal:''' namespaces{{xt|, and to redirects to the User: namespace from the main or other content namespaces (Book:, Category:, File:, Portal:, and Template:)}}.</blockquote>
:I think straight to AfD is usually the right choice. If it has already been moved to mainspace after a decline, there's strong reason to believe a prod would be contested. And as a contested deletion, it's not really a good candidate for a speedy deletion. That said, AfD is not mandatory. It happens that the draft reviewer can be wrong. Only take to AfD if you still believe it is not notable. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 22:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
If there are good reasons to have redirects from content namespaces to the User namespace, please share them. Thanks, -- [[User:Black Falcon|Black Falcon]] <sup>([[User talk:Black Falcon|talk]])</sup> 02:00, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
::That's unfortunate since AfD takes up a lot more editor time than CSD. Quick question on that. At which point does contesting a deletion count? Since I've seen plenty of authors go for the "contest deletion" option on G11, U5, and at least one A7 but it's ignored by the deleting admin. [[User:TornadoLGS|TornadoLGS]] ([[User talk:TornadoLGS|talk]]) 03:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
*'''Oppose''' as not needed. These almost never appear at RfD, and when they do they are often speedily deleted under G6 (redirects created when pages created in the wrong namespace are moved) or G7 (author requests deletion, e.g. if they're leftovers from swapping pages or after a major rewrite). Of those that are not speedily deleted, most are indeed deleted but some are retargetted. So unless you can show that there is an ongoing problem with these then a change to the speedy deletion criteria is simply not needed. Just because something is undesirable does not mean that it must be speedy deletable. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 02:12, 19 November 2018 (UTC)
:::We are not here to delete as much stuff in as little editor time as we can, but to make proper decisions on whether something is or is not suitable to be an encyclopedia article. G11 and A7 are also possible speedies for some drafts moved to mainspace, but not valid for many of them. —[[User:David Eppstein|David Eppstein]] ([[User talk:David Eppstein|talk]]) 04:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
::::I guess I thought that a draft that has been declined or rejected (especially multiple times) might be sufficiently unsuitable for mainspace to be speedily deleted. I had been tentatively floating the idea of whether a new CSD criterion might be established for this instance, though it seems like that sort of criterion wouldn't work at this point. [[User:TornadoLGS|TornadoLGS]] ([[User talk:TornadoLGS|talk]]) 22:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
:::::Rejected is just the opinion of one editor. On occasion I have moved such pages to mainspace, as clearly the rejection was not appropriate. A speedy delete in the situation you say is controversial, so AFD or other existing speedy delete (eg advertising or no claim of importance) is best. [[User:Graeme Bartlett|Graeme Bartlett]] ([[User talk:Graeme Bartlett|talk]]) 01:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
:{{ec}} Draftspace and AfC are optional. If someone moves a page from draft to article space that doesn't meet an existing speedy deletion criterion, but you believe should be deleted then PROD and AfD are your only options. AfC rejections represent the opinion of the reviewer(s), not consensus. [[User:Thryduulf|Thryduulf]] ([[User talk:Thryduulf|talk]]) 22:31, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
:Just noting that if a copy/paste has been performed, unless the original editor is the ''only'' content editor a {{t|histmerge}} will be necessary. [[User:Primefac|Primefac]] ([[User talk:Primefac|talk]]) 01:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
*Use AFD, there shouldn't be a criteria for deleting such articles as it would discourage people from using AFD in the first place. '''[[User:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Green">Crouch, Swale</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Crouch, Swale|<span style="color:Blue">talk</span>]]) 17:17, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Support as proposer and the discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 March 26#London (Disambiguation) and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 August 24#"Title (Disambiguation)" redirects to disambiguation pages these redirects are a nuisance to editors trying to fix disambiguation errors and search takes readers to the correct title if deleted anyway. I would be open to moving the redirects to pages ending in the (correctly formatted) "(disambiguation)" that point to pages that aren't DAB pages here if people think that's a good idea. 1 objective, most agree they should be deleted though a significant minority disagree as is sometimes the case with other criteria, 2, uncontestable, per the 2 linked discussions there is a consensus that they should be deleted, 3, frequent, although not extremely frequent they are frequent enough IMO, 4, nonredundant, these may be able to be deleted under R3 or G6 as it was argued in the 2022 discussion but given the discussion it would be clearer to have a separate criteria. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:07, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose alternative capitalization of first letter being included – These are not harmful and Wikipedia is not improved with their deletion. It's entirely predictable that someone would miscapitalize a disambiguator. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:42, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. As the only non-article pages in mainspace, disambiguation pages and redirects are each special and somewhat obscure from a reader viewpoint, and redirects to disambiguation pages are doubly so. The correct versions of these redirects are a technical measure to assist editors and the automated tools they use. The incorrect versions, including capitalised variants, serve no purpose and help no one. Shoot on sight. Certes (talk) 19:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Entirely unhelpful to keep these around. Might as well keep any and every misspelling as entirely predictable that someone at some point will make such an error. Better to make it clear that it is an error than to let an editor think they have created a correct wiki link. older ≠ wiser20:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose deleting "(Disambiguation)" redirects if they redirect to a disambiguation page-someone might miscapitalize the D (like in the case of holding the ⇧ Shift key for too long), and while it may not necessarily be helpful, it's not harmful either. Support deleting those with misspelled "disambiguations" and those that have "disambiguation" yet don't have appropriate disambiguation pages that exist-those ones are search bar clutter and might annoy or mislead people respectively. Neutral (tilting support) on deleting the "(DISAMBIGUATION)" ones though-this error (e.g., holding the ⇪ Caps Lock key) does happen, but not very often. Those may help some people, but they're mostly an annoyance, so Wikipedia may be safe without the fully capitalized disambiguators. Regards, SONIC67820:19, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
those that have "disambiguation" yet don't have appropriate disambiguation pages that exist Redirects ending in "(disambiguation)" (with any capitalisation) that don't point to a disambiguation page and cannot be retargetted to an appropriate disambiguation page are already covered by R4. Those that don't end that way need discussion to determine what, if anything, the best target is. Thryduulf (talk) 07:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. These are harmful because linking to them from anywhere except their RfD nomination is always a mistake per WP:INTDAB. They should all be red links so its immediately obvious to the editor that tries to add them. In fact, this is precisely why we should delete "(Disambiguation)" redirects since those are the most likely ones to make editors trip up. The very few editors that hold down Shift for too long while searching for disambiguation pages (I'm guessing people don't search for dab pages too often in general so imagine how rare those mistakes are) will be taken care of by search anyway. Nickps (talk) 20:31, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that doesn't follow from my comment. What I said only applies to the redirects included in the CSD proposal. Linking to e.g. doing instead of [[do (disambiguation)|doing]] is wrong but the redirect should still be kept since it's useful for searching. Do (Disambiguation) is not useful because it's an implausible search term and anyone who nevertheless searches it today ends up in the correct page yet it looks close enough to the correct version that an unsuspecting editor might think it's fine per WP:INTDAB even though it's not. Keeping it would provide no benefit to the readers but would cause problems to the editors and the problem it would cause to the editors outweighs any potential benefits. Nickps (talk) 12:39, 7 April 2024 (UTC);edited: 12:43, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, who types "(disambiguation)" in the first place? Almost all (if not all) our readers would type the name of the thing they are looking for and click the hatnote. I'm guessing (but I admittedly don't know for sure) that a lot of editors do the same. So, when even the correct capitalization is implausible, imagine what the incorrect one is. And again, for the very few people who do type the whole thing instead of clicking on the correct suggestion, and the very few times they get it wrong, search will find the right page anyway. Nickps (talk) 14:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Some people do search directly for disambiguation pages, e.g. when they are looking for a list of things called X, or when they know or suspect that the X they are looking for is not the primary topic but don't know what the article is called. As far as I am aware, it is not possible to know how many people "some" is, other than it's greater than zero.
Regarding the capitalisation, everywhere outside of disambiguators there is a very strong consensus that redirects from plausible alternative capitalisations (such as Title Case) are a Good Thing. I've never seen any remotely convincing evidence for why disamiguators are different. Thryduulf (talk) 18:54, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As pointed out every time search suggestions (the image) are brought up at RFD, this is only true for a subset of ways people navigate Wikipedia. Users, including but not limited to those following links, entering the URI directly, or using some third-party search methods will not end up at a page that doesn't match the capitalisation of their search directly. What happens then depends on a combination of multiple factors, but some will be one click/tap away from the page they want others will be up to at least three clicks/taps away. Thryduulf (talk) 22:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe you find it so frustrating because others don't find your argument convincing? This may be a case of touring the sticks.
third-party search Just for kicks, I tried a few external search engines with the query "London (Disambiguation)". Unsurprisingly, all of them returned London (disambiguation) as their first hit. If you go through the search API, you go directly there. Paradoctor (talk) 00:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You not being convinced doesn't mean others weren't, so please don't act like they're silly for saying their peace. Thryduulf's argument in a previous RfD actually made me reconsider my view and realize how silly I was for supporting the deletion of alternative capitalizations of disambiguators. As if editors would never accidentally or mistakenly capitalize one, eh? As if these capitalizations are somehow detrimental and damaging, or unhelpful. I think what's silly is to act like they're saying something ludicrous. Hey man im josh (talk) 03:53, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
like they're silly for saying their piece Please don't put words in my mouth. Thryduulf complained in their edit summary about not getting through to others with their argument. I suggested that they might not have given enough consideration to changing their approach, which hasn't worked. It's one of my more hard-earned lessons from contributing in this place that being Right™ and being agreed to are different things. As Lonestone put it, doing the same thing again and again and expecting to get a different result is not zielführend. Paradoctor (talk) 04:20, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is a difference between not being convinced by an argument and pretending that argument does not exist. It's fine to think that disadvantaging a proportion of readers is OK, what is not fine is claiming that nobody will be disadvantaged. Thryduulf (talk) 07:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, words are being put in my mouth. Where did I say that "nobody will be disadvantaged"? Maybe you were thinking of somebody else? Maybe I should now complain about not being understood? Paradoctor (talk) 07:59, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Saying "nobody will be disadvantaged" is implicit in your posting of the image directly above when it has been explained, multiple times, why arguments relating to search suggestions are incorrect and/or misleading (depending how they're phrased). Thryduulf (talk) 19:12, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, that is you reading stuff into my words. All I did was let some air out of your argument. You don't have to like it, but don't misrepresent my words. Paradoctor (talk) 19:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You let no air out of my argument, because my argument has always explicitly acknowledged that search suggestions exist and help some people but because they do not help everybody they are not evidence the redirect is unnecessary. Pointing out that search suggestions exist adds nothing to that at all. Pointing out search suggestions exist in combination with an argument that says such redirects are unnecessary is misleading. Thryduulf (talk) 19:51, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is not my job to convince you. It is not necessary or desirable to reply to every comment in a discussion.
That I have not rebutted your every point is because I don't deem it necessary. I've argued to the point where I let the process do the rest. It may not satisfy you, but it does not give you licence to impugn my words as misleading. That is inappropriate. You believe you're right? Fine. Then wait for the close. Or talk to someone else. The only thing you can achieve here is badgering me. Paradoctor (talk) 21:09, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not asking you to convince me, or to agree with me. I'm asking you to acknowledge the existence of arguments that refute yours rather than pretend they don't exist. Thryduulf (talk) 21:18, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again for the hard of hearing: WP:BADGERThe fact that you have a question, concern, or objection does not [...] mean that others are obligated to answer (added emphasis) Paradoctor (talk) 21:33, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Strong oppose "Disambiguation" redirects per my arguments at the linked RfDs. These are useful redirects and deletion harms the encyclopaedia, speedy deletion would be even more harmful. Almost all implausible misspellings of "disambiguation" can be speedy deleted under G6 and/or R3 already, I've not seen any evidence there are enough that can't to justify speedy deletion. Plausible misspellings should be kept like any other plausible misspelling redirect. Thryduulf (talk) 21:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When a case which R5 would cover goes to RfD, some editors say that it should have been deleted speedily but others oppose the deletion. I'm not sure whether those who oppose disagree that the case is obvious and unlikely, or that CSD includes obvious and unlikely redirects. Either way, it seems that we need to clarify the consensus on this matter. However, if another CSD criterion already covers this case, please suggest a clarification to it rather than creating R5. Certes (talk) 22:57, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
CSD is explicitly only for the most obvious cases. If there is disagreement about whether it should be deleted at all then it's not suitable for speedy deletion. The cases where there is agreement are already unambiguously covered by existing, uncontroversial criteria (G6*, R3 and R4). *G6 isn't completely uncontroversial, but the "unambiguously created in error" part that is relevant here is not controversial) Thryduulf (talk) 23:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is clearly disagreement about whether R5 should become a CSD. Does that make it not a CSD? Is unanimity required for this sort of change, or just consensus? Certes (talk) 08:03, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It needs to be uncontroversial that every page which could be deleted according to criterion should be deleted. When the discussions show substantial disagreement then it is clearly controversial. Thryduulf (talk) 18:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If an editor states that alternative capitalizations should have been speedy deleted then they're wrong. They do not qualify under the existing R3 and G6 rationale, as I've explained to Crouch when they've CSD tagged alternative capitalizations in the past. They're possible search terms, which makes them ineligible for R3, and frankly I'd love to see AnomieBot or something regularly create the alternative capitalizations, similar to how it does with hyphens and en dashes. Hey man im josh (talk) 03:58, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I hope there is no way that systematically cluttering the namespace with more erroneous redirects would gain consensus. Where do we stop? Do we also create 356,000 redirects for each plausible misspelling of "disambiguation"? How about duplicating every qualified article title by creating redirects from miscapitalisation Foo (Film), Foo (Footballer), etc.? Certes (talk) 08:01, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I don't want to bludgeon the discussion, so I'll back off after this. But can anybody give me one example of how pages with an alternative capitalization on the disambiguator are a net negative and worth spending our time on fighting against? Those are typically piped anyways, so people wouldn't typically notice anyways. I'm always open to changing my mind and view, but over the last year where I've been following that disagreement, I just don't get it, and I really want to. The justification I end up being led to is a a user essay, not a guideline, and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. If someone convinces me I'll happily change my view and help clean up. But I just genuinely don't get it and feel like I'm taking crazy pills when people are steadfast against alternative capitalizations. Hey man im josh (talk) 04:05, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Suppose we have a page that intentionally links to more than 7 dab pages like Joey (name). That page was tagged with {{dablinks}} by User:DPL bothere because the links didn't end with "(disambiguation)" like WP:INTDAB says they should. Once that was fixed, the bot removed the tag. However, had a well meaning editor used "(Disambiguation)" instead in an attempt to fix the problem, the tag would have stayed and the bot would readd it if someone tried to remove it. In that case, the editor trying to fix the problem would be at a loss since all the dab links are correctly marked as such from their perspective. User:JaGa (who should have been notified of this discussion from the beginning) can correct me if I'm wrong.
Now, considering the hypothetical I described above as well as the fact that the number of people who will be inconvenienced by the absence of such redirects is vanishingly small, is it worth it to keep them? Nickps (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nickps: Would we not have the page link to the proper dab location instead? People linking a redirect by mistake (of say a plausible misspelling) would not be reason enough for redirect variations not to exist. Hey man im josh (talk) 14:27, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a tool used to maintain the encyclopaedia encounters something that makes it behave in an undesirable manner then it needs to be either fixed or replaced with a tool that works properly. We should never degrade the reader experience (such as by breaking links) just to make life easier for editorial tools. Thryduulf (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The tool does not behave in an undesirable manner. This is what is supposed to happen. WP:INTDAB says the community has adopted the standard of routing all intentional disambiguation links in mainspace through "Foo (disambiguation)" redirects (emphasis in the original). This isn't just a faulty assumption by a bot author, there is consensus behind it. Even if we decide that we should keep redirects of the form "... (Disambiguation)", "... (DISAMBIGUATION)" etc., there is no reason to change INTDAB or User:DPL bot's behavior. We will just have to replace every mainspace link that points to such a page with the correctly capitalized version. The reason I still want to delete those pages is because I don't think such a process is worth it. Nickps (talk) 19:30, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If the bot is failing to recognise intentional redirects to disambiguation pages as intentional redirects to disambiguation pages that is undesirable. Even if we decide that we should keep redirects of the form [...] We will just have to replace every mainspace link that points to such a page with the correctly capitalized version.[citation needed].
The purpose of routing intentional links to disamiguation pages via redirects is so that they can be distinguished from unintentional links to disambiguation pages. The capitalisation (or indeed spelling) of the redirect is completely irrelevant to that. Thryduulf (talk) 19:55, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think INTDAB should stay exactly as is since if we changed it to allow alternative capitalizations, that'd cause intended dab links to be inconsistent with each other, which would look unprofessional. All lowercase "disambiguation" should absolutely be a house style for dab links, even if we allow alternate capitalizations to exist. At best, we could have a bot recognize that those links are intentional and change them to the correct version, but we should not let them stand. Nickps (talk) 20:29, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
After carefully re-reading that comment three times, I can't believe that I understood it correctly. Is it seriously suggesting that any old qualifier that looks a bit like "(disambiguation)" will do and, rather than correcting such errors, we should leave them in place and rewrite our processes and software to allow anyone to misspell the word however they like? Certes (talk) 20:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have not understood the comment correctly. I'm saying that we could choose to allow any string that resembled "disambiguation" and still achieve the goal of distinguishing intentional and unintentional links to disambiguation pages. This means that if we want to restrict it to a subset of that then it has to be for other reasons than simply achieving the goal. Personally I think "disambiguation", "Disambiguation" and "DISAMBIGUATION" should all be identified as correct; other capitalisations and any commonly-encountered misspellings (if there are any) should be changed to one of those three by a bot, and misspellings should be flagged for human attention.
What I didn't say, but should have done, is that regardless of what we choose to accept for internal links that is completely independent of which redirects should be kept for the benefit of people searching or following links from external websites (in the same we keep almost all other redirects from plausible but incorrect capitalisations despite not linking to them internally) Thryduulf (talk) 21:07, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; that's clearer. I think that any hypothetical bot should correct other capitalisations in links along with known misspellings, as we currently do manually. That is a discussion for another place but, if we find consensus that INTDAB links to Foo (DISAMBIGUATION) are a good thing, then we should retain redirects of that name rather than deleting them speedily (or slowly), and possibly create the 99.999% of them which are currently missing. That is indeed a different question from whether we should retain such redirects for searching or external links. Certes (talk) 21:24, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its quite simple, if you think "Foo (Disambiguation)" or even "Foo (DISAMBIGUATION)" redirects are useful then get consensus to have a bot create all of them. Either readers and editors find them useful, in which case they should all be created or they don't, in which case they should all be deleted unless an exception applies. And if we think things out well as you said in the London discussion (its not clear if you're referring to the individual or mass creation as "well thought out") then we would realize that it is not good use of editor time to create and patrol random DAB redirects rather than create them when a bot. Again this is different to other types of redirects like where one redirect for an alternative name is used while the other isn't. All DAB pages have the same function and the (im)plausibility applies to all such titles regardless of if someone arbitrarily creates some. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:38, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: What makes alternative capitalizations on disambiguators any different from alternative capitalization redirects? I don't see people up in arms about alternative caps used for a wide variety of redirects. I'm not arguing for the full caps by any stretch, but I'm not sure consensus is even required for alternative capitalizations. As for, "..then we would realize that it is not good use of editor time to create and patrol random DAB redirects", the bot which automatically patrols a number of redirects typically automatically marks a wide variety of alternative capitalizations as patrolled as well. I don't believe this would add much, if any, burden to the NPP team. Hey man im josh (talk) 20:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RDAB gives the reasons for DAB pages with incorrect qualifiers and if we wanted them they would be created with the correct templates etc. Crouch, Swale (talk) 14:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
RDAB is an essay that expresses opinions. Some of those reflect widespread consensus, some of those opinions do not, and it makes no effort to distinguish them. It also makes no attempt to justify most of those opinions - e.g. it doesn't give any reasoning why "(Disambiguation)" should be regarded as less correct than "(disambiguation)". Thryduulf (talk) 14:59, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: I've read the WP:RDAB essay, but I fail to see how disambiguators using a different capitalization are harmful to the encyclopedia but redirects using alternative capitalization without a disambiguation are not (not that I want other alternative capitalizations deleted, just wanted to ask this again since it wasn't addressed). In short, I'm looking for an explanation and justification other than because a user essay says. I'm trying very hard to understand how the disambiguations in brackets, such as "(Actor)", "(Politician)", or "(Singer)", make the site worse, but no one has offered up a good explanation. Capitalization after the opening bracket certainly isn't unlikely, someone may have just held the shift button a slight bit too long. Newer users also usually aren't familiar with our naming conventions, so it doesn't seem implausible that someone may capitalize what's in brackets not knowing that we don't do so. Hey man im josh (talk) 15:11, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bots which mark redirects as patrolled just look at who created them rather than attempting to triage their title, target, rcats, etc. Being patrolled in this way simply means that a trusted editor thought it should be created (or made a mistake). Certes (talk) 17:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Certes: That's actually not true, the bot will mark certain kinds of redirects as patrolled, even if you aren't on the redirect autopatrol list. See some of the rules for the bot listed at User:DannyS712 bot III/rules. You'll note under bot task #38, point B, focuses on the target and the redirect, comparing the two for differences in capitalization and marking them as patrolled. Hey man im josh (talk) 18:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, thanks for the correction. I remember making suggestions when Danny was writing the bot about what sort of redirects could safely be passed, then I ended up with mine being passed based on author, but I didn't realise both measures were in place. Certes (talk) 18:47, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you have any more suggestions about redirects you think that should be autopatrolled I'd love to hear it @Certes. We recently reached consensus to autopatrol the redirects left behind by page movers when a page is moved (based on the threshold to receive the page mover permission, we should be able to trust the moves made by these users). Hey man im josh (talk) 18:52, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A bot would still make fewer mistakes than a human if programmed correctly and would manage to create consistency. @Hey man im josh and Thryduulf:WP:AFFINITY says or a disambiguated title with one parenthesis missing (the last is an example of an unnatural error; i.e. an error specific to Wikipedia titling conventions that would likely not be arrived at naturally by readers, thereby adding to the implausibility). A title when the error is in brackets (or commas) is generally implausible as its very unlikely anyone will make use of it and as BD2412 said in the 2022 RFD as it stands these excess incoming links are a nuisance to editors trying to fix disambiguation errors. Deleting these will only enable access to the links with the proper capitalization. So with almost no likelihood of use by readers (and if it is likely we should create all) but an inconvenience to editors who's efforts would be better spent of improving other things for our readers I think this along with the 2022 and 26 March RFD that there is a consensus (though weak) that these should not exist. Crouch, Swale (talk) 22:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note that WP:AFFINITY is just a different section of the same essay so you haven't actually answered the question asked. No evidence is presented for the assertion that A title when the error is in brackets (or commas) is generally implausible as its very unlikely anyone will make use of it - indeed in multiple AfDs evidence that people do use some redirects that have "errors" within the parentheses. Deleting these will only enable access to the links with the proper capitalization. As repeatedly explained, this is false - some readers will access the content they are looking for via other links, other readers will not.
As also mentioned multiple times, the inconvenience to editors can be solved at a stroke by changing the programming of the bot to stop flagging the redirects as errors (and/or by changing them itself). Thryduulf (talk) 23:15, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No evidence has been presented to support the claim that readers will benefit from a few random qualified redirects to DAB pages while multiple editors who fix DAB linked have expressed the point that they inconvenience editors. In a few cases evidence has been presented that they get a few views and have a few links but that doesn't show the viewers would actually have been inconvenienced as its likely the readers would have landed on the correctly capitalized version first time and the links would be corrected/wouldn't have been made to the incorrect title "A redirect that has other wikipages linked to it is not necessarily a good reason for keeping it. Current internal wikilinks can be updated to point to the current title.". Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:29, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"No evidence presented" – Seriously? There absolutely has been evidence that these can be useful. It's funny considering the crux of your argument is a user essay and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. As mentioned, the bots can be tweaked. Please ping me when you propose another rationale to delete all alternative capitalizations on Wiki because of people mistakenly linking to a redirect. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:48, 12 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh: From what I can see leaving aside the linkrot arguments that were presented in the 2022 discussion (but obviously not in the 2024 discussion) the main reason for keeping them was that some people navigate using direct URLs rather than the search box but there wasn't any reason to believe that its likely many will do that for the very small number of them that exist. And I didn't write the essay which is in the project space not userspace though I did add a "See also" to an essay I write years ago and have commented on the talk page, see WP:PERESSAY. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:46, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
When asked for a reason other than "this user essay, that presents no evidence to back up its assertions, says so" you point to... a user essay that doesn't even discuss the topic, let alone present relevant evidence? Why do you think that is relevant?
Your other argument is "evidence was presented in discussions that people use these redirects" as evidence for your assertion that people don't use these redirects. That's not convincing me you are listening to what people are saying to you. Thryduulf (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Thryduulf:WP:RDAB is not a WP:User essay (yes it was a user essay in the past but its been in the project space for nearly 8 years) its a project essay that as noted I haven't really contributed to and most people support even though a significant minority oppose it. I'm just going by the consensus of which COSTLY has been cited in hundreds of RFDs over many years so its not my personal preference I'm going by what the consensus is which appears to be that they should be deleted. RDAB specifically discusses redirects with incorrect qualifiers. That's not a case of IDONTLIKEIT. If you want a reason other than based on the project space essay then I'd argue that those created accidentally (and were moved to the correct case) are borderline G6. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:53, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those which are G6 can and should be deleted under that criterion so a new one isn't needed. Of the rest, firstly there aren't that many (so a new criterion isn't needed) and secondly not all of them should be deleted reducing the number even further. Thryduulf (talk) 19:12, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:RDAB states: This is an essay. It contains the advice or opinions of one or more Wikipedia contributors. This page is not an encyclopedia article, nor is it one of Wikipedia's policies or guidelines, as it has not been thoroughly vetted by the community. Some essays represent widespread norms; others only represent minority viewpoints.
WP:RDAB is not a WP:User essay – The point is it's an essay created by a few people, not policy, so the semantics of it don't really matter. These things have a habit of not changing beyond the original's writers intentions, otherwise people encourage someone to write another essay.
I haven't really contributed to and most people support even though a significant minority oppose it – You may not have contributed to it, but you're using it as the primary rationale when arguing for additional CSD criteria to be added. As you mention though, a significant minority oppose it, meaning this suggestion does not fit the criteria of being uncontroversial.
RDAB specifically discusses redirects with incorrect qualifiers. – Template:R from incorrect disambiguation and Template:R from miscapitalisation both exist as relevant categories and are accepted types of redirects, by and large. It's unclear how a mis/alternative capitalization in brackets makes the search time suddenly in valid.
If you want a reason other than based on the project space essay then I'd argue that those created accidentally (and were moved to the correct case) are borderline G6. – I've been begging for a reason other than the essay. As mentioned though, I fail to see what makes an alternative/miscapitalization of the first letter of a disambiguator an unlikely search term and an unhelpful redirect.
Thryduulf and I have presented numerous examples of how these redirects are possibly useful, but throughout the discussion you keep coming back to RDAB. Whether you want to use the words or not, this absolutely boils down to a case of IDONTLIKEIT. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh: An essay that has been endorsed by the majority of people does appear to have consensus. Yes PANDORA is clearly controversial but RDAB appears to be less so even though it is still controversial. CHEAP is also an essay which has existed longer which has also been used by numerous people and IDONTLIKEIT which I don't think apples here is also one.
Yes that is a reason against it but many CSD criteria are also somewhat controversial. If there is a weak consensus it may be useful to have it.
Such templates are used on redirects but redirects with implausible or malformatted qualifiers are also commonly deleted at RFD.
Though policies and guidelines are stronger arguments as noted essays can still be used to argue things on Wikipedia. In any case as noted both the 2022 and 2024 RFDs neither of which were started by me resulted in a consensus to delete. You don't have to agree with that consensus and are free to argue against it but to claim IDONTLIKEIT in face of those RFDs seems a bit odd.
The main arguments you and Thryduulf have presented are direct URL entering and the fact people have thought it necessary to create them but as noted it doesn't appear readers are likely to find them useful due to the qualifiers being WP specific and the way the search box goes. Though I would say its hard to provide evidence either way though I accept incoming links is evidence of this. I'd also give more weight to what users who use/participate in the DAB fixing tools than what I think and as noted multiple such people have complained about them. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:30, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Crouch, Swale: An essay that has been endorsed by the majority of people – Citation needed.
I actually didn't mention the URL stuff. I said that it's easily possible, and likely that it happens all the time, where one user is typing and holds the shift button a little too long when adding a bracket, only to accidentally capitalize the first letter of the disambiguator. I have also said that I fail to see how these are harmful redirects. As we've also repeatedly mentioned when you bring up the search, the auto fill and drop down of options when you've partially typed in the search box doesn't work in every scenario, as you're suggesting. As such, it's then easy to see how a redirect from a typo / miscapitalization could be useful.
I keep going back to IDONTLIKEIT because the focus of this discussion has been largely on the content of an essay that doesn't make any argument for why the redirects are harmful or detrimental. If there isn't an argument besides an essay and "they were deleted before", then that's IDONTLIKEIT.
I'd also give more weight to what users who use/participate in the DAB fixing tools than what I think and as noted multiple such people have complained about them. – Do you give weight to the people who review the redirects? I see alternative capitalization all the time, and when it's just on the first letter of a word I always mark it as reviewed for the reason that it could be helpful to someone.
Franky I don't care at all about PANDORA in this situation. As an NPP coordinator / the leading redirect reviewer since over the past year and a half, I can attest that it's no extra work for reviewers (alt capitalizations are already auto reviewed) and we could ask Anome to have their bot auto create these like they do for titles with an en dash in the (the redirects they create use hyphens).
In short, the alternative capitalization of the first letter is harmless, it's possibly useful, and it's not an improvement to the Wiki to delete these. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:58, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Directet URL entry is simply one example of a case-sensitive method of navigating Wikipedia, it is not the only one. Many of these redirects have non-trivial numbers of page views, which is objectively evidence of them being used and, given they lead unambiguously to the only correct target, evidence of utility.
If there is a weak consensus it may be useful to have [a CSD criterion]. is absolutely incorrect. CSD is explicitly only for the most obvious cases where everything that could be deleted by a criterion should be deleted, according to consensus. Situations where the is only a weak consensus at best cannot meet those requirements. Thryduulf (talk) 23:26, 18 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hey man im josh and Thryduulf: I don't know a huge amount about how DAB fixes work and how these interfere with it but User:Certes does appear to so may be able to explain better. In terms of caring about readers (or editors) using the redirects I'd argue its more confusing to have such redirects for a small number than not at all and if we thought such redirects were useful we would just get a bot to create all of them meaning such searches would always work rather than working in a small number of cases similar to the comments at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 January 24#Absolutely every malformed disambiguation without parentheses. So if we care about people being able to use such redirects why not do it for all. Personally I'm normally an inclusionist but I think such redirects are outside that, on a similar note just because I think its a good idea to have a separate article on every municipality and census settlement and even other settlements doesn't mean I would think its a good idea to have an article on every farm or building. Crouch, Swale (talk) 19:05, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So, basically, because there's not enough of the redirects of this style you're arguing it's more confusing? We could easily request AnomieBot be configured to create these types of redirects. As for the linked AfD, that's an entirely different set of potential disambiguations which are less likely than the likely possibility of accidently using an alternative capitalization. Hey man im josh (talk) 19:13, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think helping people find the page they are looking for on some occasions is much better than going out of our way to never help them, but if creating a "(Disambiguation)" redirect to match every "(disambiguation)" page or redirect is what it takes to stop making the encyclopaedia harder to navigate then let's just do that. As for the linked RfD, you will see that I argued to keep those that are navigationally useful so I'm not sure why you think that example of OTHERSTUFF is helpful to your argument? Thryduulf (talk) 19:30, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Link fixing is needed after an editor links to a dab such as Mercury when they meant Mercury (planet). Very occasionally, we really do want a link to the dab. (For other uses, see Mercury). To mark such cases so we don't keep checking them repeatedly, we apply WP:INTDAB and link to [[Mercury (disambiguation)|Mercury]]. Experienced dab fixers know to skip such links, and so do tools which produce reports such as Disambiguation pages with links. They don't skip (Disambiguation), (DISAMBIGUATION) or (Disrandomtypotion), so links to such redirects would have to be checked again and again. Eventually, they would mount up and dwarf the actual errors. At that point, we would have no alternative but to give up and just leave all the bad links for our readers to follow. In fact, if (Disambiguation) redirects are created systematically, I for one will see no point in continuing this work and will give up immediately. Certes (talk) 19:39, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Certes alternatively, the tools could just be adjusted so they don't mark "(Disambiguation)" etc as errors - indeed as they aren't errors they shouldn't marked as such at the moment. Thryduulf (talk) 19:56, 22 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support all except capitalisation of first letter, so I think this should be reworded to exclude that if it passes. As countless RfDs leading to WP:SNOW-level deletions (and amusing the daily logs to become massive) have shown, these redirects are completely unnecessary, unhelpful to the point that they are WP:COSTLY and should not exist, and they have clogged up the RfD log from discussions many times in the past. Therefore, this speedy deletion category is needed so that these can be deleted efficiently without wasting time or space at RfD. However, unlike the redirect types outlined at WP:RDAB and the other categories, there is a small chance that redirects with the alternate capitalisation can be useful. Even though this chance is small, I still think it is enough to justify a full discussion at RfD rather than speedy deletion. Leaving only this type of redirect for RfD is not enough to clog the daily log up with discussions, so I see this arrangement as a win-win where the unhelpful, unnecessary WP:RDAB-type redirects are speedily deleted as they should while redirects with a small chance of usefulness get a full RfD discussion without filling the log up with discussions. InterstellarGamer12321 (talk | contribs) 11:47, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, I think at least some (if not all) of the text currently at WP:RDAB should be added to the speedy deletion criterion definition to specify which types of redirects fall under this criterion to avoid confusion. InterstellarGamer12321 (talk | contribs) 11:52, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the case for first-letter capitalization can't be made; there's been 763 such deletions ever, with more than half on two days in late 2022. It's not because they're not being deleted, either, since only four such pages currently exist. (Ø (Disambiguation) isn't a disambig.) This isn't remotely frequent enough to need a speedy deletion criterion. It's frequent enough for another batch rfd in another twenty years. —Cryptic13:00, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Ø (Disambiguation) is a IAR exception, notorious amongst dab maintainers for coming up as a false positive whenever we check for dodgy titles. Unsurprisingly, there are no pages with a qualifier of (DISAMBIGUATION) in all capitals. Certes (talk) 21:40, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose We already have criteria for the most obvious misspelling issues, redirects are cheap, deleting a redirect using other than CSD isn't exactly a burden on the system. I don't see this as solving a real issue, but it could cause some. Dennis Brown - 2¢06:30, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Thryduulf and Dennis Brown. R3 suffices for most cases, and the rest can go to RfD. This is simply not a significant problem. – bradv15:15, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support these routinely get deleted at RfD; there is no reason to have the same debate 1000 times when the merits remain the same every single time. Elli (talk | contribs) 19:45, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait, aren't we discussing something similar above? It feels like this proposal should have been incorporated into that RfC, perhaps as a secondary question. Regardless, support; there is consensus from countless RfD discussions, not merely from the wording at RDAB, that these redirects are not helpful and should be deleted. InfiniteNexus (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are properly separate because they deal with different things, only one of which meets the requirements for a speedy deletion criterion. Thryduulf (talk) 16:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I would be okay with this if we limit it to recently created redirects (similar to how A10 and R3 are limited to recently created redirects). Without this qualification, I oppose the change. For redirects that have existed a long time, the small maintenance benefit of deleting them doesn't outweigh the risk of breaking incoming external links (WP:RFD#KEEP point 4). —Mx. Granger (talk· contribs) 13:58, 25 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hi. I'm proposing that a new criteria be added for speedy deletion of drafts, which are duplicated by an existing, rejected draft. Any thoughts? '''[[User:CanonNi]]''' (talk • contribs) 04:24, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SRE. Rejected draft? Redirect to the rejected draft. Do not review, using AfC tools or otherwise, a content fork. If your redirecting is reverted, take it to MfD. Only MfD could generate compelling data to support a WP:NEWCSD for draftspace, like it did for G13. SmokeyJoe (talk) 06:36, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the others here. Redirecting requires no criterion and usually works. Same for drafts that duplicate an existing article (and are not someone actively working on an improvement to that article). —David Eppstein (talk) 08:02, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This isn't necessary. If it's a duplicate of another draft just redirect or merge them, if it's a duplicate of an article (and not an attempt to improve it) then redirect to that article. If it's actively causing problems for some reason, and doesn't somehow meet an existing criterion, then explain that at MfD. In every other case, doing anything other than waiting for G13 is a waste of time and effort. Thryduulf (talk) 13:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
G8 conflict?
Imagine that I create User talk:Nyttend/subpage. Assuming that there's no problem with the content I put on the page, it's a perfectly fine page; we wouldn't delete it on G8 merely because User:Nyttend/subpage doesn't exist. Now, imagine that I create User:Nyttend/subpage with problematic content, e.g. blatant spam. Someone comes around and deletes it. Should the talk page be deleted (because it's the talk page of a deleted page), or should it remain (because it's a valid subpage in userspace), or is this something we should just leave up to admin judgement?
Also, imagine that I create User:Nyttend/subpage with the content #REDIRECT ebwtriypnry0tiw5mr4te5, or I create the page with valid content and then replace it with the broken redirect. G8 (redirect to nonexistent page), or keep (established user's subpage), or admin judgement?
I usually end up deleting the user talk subpages, and mostly consider it a bug that the "G8: Talk page of a deleted page" option doesn't appear in the deletion dropdown and that there isn't a link to the talk page from the post-deletion screen. I guess the distinction is that User talk:Nyttend/Archive 42 is primarily a subpage of User talk:Nyttend; while User talk:Nyttend/spam sandbox, which typically consists of wikiproject templates from the article creation wizard, would primarily be the talk page of User:Nyttend/spam sandbox.For a U1, or other ambiguous cases where the deletion would be unobjectionable to the page owner, I'd probably leave a note on their talk page or maybe in the deletion log to ask for deletion of the user talk subpage separately if desired. It hasn't come up. —Cryptic00:29, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, my impression has always been that "User talk pages" in the "not eligible for G8" list only applies to the main user talk page and equivalents, i.e User talk:Nyttend, but not automatically every talk page of a page in the user namespace. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:52, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's always been my impression too. Obviously there will be some exceptions (e.g. a theoretical user talk:Thryduulf/Subpage/Archive 1) that require admin discretion. The easiest (but non-ideal) ways to resolve this are probably using the {{G8-exempt}} template proactively, and having a very low bar to restoration when asked. Thryduulf (talk) 11:23, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Procedure for rejected draftified articles and declined/rejected AfC submissions improperly moved or copies to mainspace
So, this is something I've seen happen in some cases, usually involving inexperienced editors who have just gotten autoconfirmed.
First there is the instance I've dealt with, where an article is draftified (when I've done it, it's usually for lacking references) and the author immediately recreates it by either moving it or, more often, by copy-paste. I haven't seen an exact consensus on what to do in this instance. Some have said db-copypaste might apply, but not all admins will delete in this instance. The other options would be re-draftify, PROD, or AfD.
The other instance would be declined or rejected AfC submissions that are moved or copied to mainspace without improvement. My understanding is that declined AfC pages that are resubmitted without improvement are usually summarily declined. If a submission is declined multiple times, that would indicate consensus that the page, in its present state, is unsuitable to be an article, putting it in a similar position to a page that meets G4. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:01, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think straight to AfD is usually the right choice. If it has already been moved to mainspace after a decline, there's strong reason to believe a prod would be contested. And as a contested deletion, it's not really a good candidate for a speedy deletion. That said, AfD is not mandatory. It happens that the draft reviewer can be wrong. Only take to AfD if you still believe it is not notable. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:30, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's unfortunate since AfD takes up a lot more editor time than CSD. Quick question on that. At which point does contesting a deletion count? Since I've seen plenty of authors go for the "contest deletion" option on G11, U5, and at least one A7 but it's ignored by the deleting admin. TornadoLGS (talk) 03:43, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We are not here to delete as much stuff in as little editor time as we can, but to make proper decisions on whether something is or is not suitable to be an encyclopedia article. G11 and A7 are also possible speedies for some drafts moved to mainspace, but not valid for many of them. —David Eppstein (talk) 04:31, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess I thought that a draft that has been declined or rejected (especially multiple times) might be sufficiently unsuitable for mainspace to be speedily deleted. I had been tentatively floating the idea of whether a new CSD criterion might be established for this instance, though it seems like that sort of criterion wouldn't work at this point. TornadoLGS (talk) 22:33, 2 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Rejected is just the opinion of one editor. On occasion I have moved such pages to mainspace, as clearly the rejection was not appropriate. A speedy delete in the situation you say is controversial, so AFD or other existing speedy delete (eg advertising or no claim of importance) is best. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 01:54, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Draftspace and AfC are optional. If someone moves a page from draft to article space that doesn't meet an existing speedy deletion criterion, but you believe should be deleted then PROD and AfD are your only options. AfC rejections represent the opinion of the reviewer(s), not consensus. Thryduulf (talk) 22:31, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]