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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources#News_organizations

I notice that "editorial oversight" or "editorial control" is mentioned elsewhere, but here, in this section, where, it would seem, it would be most relevant.

I would also like to see more guidance about how to evaluate non mainstream news sources. Benjamin (talk) 15:04, 11 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Don't archive this yet. Benjamin (talk) 04:39, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Are there any WP RS news media that refer — in reporter’s voice — to their own country’s intervention in other country’s electoral (or other) affairs as ‘interference’? Humanengr (talk) 17:21, 13 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

By way of example, U.S. news media considered as RS in WP rarely (if ever) refer to U.S. intervention in other countries as ‘interference’. Thoughts? Humanengr (talk) 03:00, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good question! Writing from memory, several members of the Indian press were critical of the Indian takeover of Sikkim. (India had been "interfering" in Sikkim for a long time, apparently legally, but the last election before the take-over was controversial.) Similar sitation applies to allegations of interference in Nepal, esepcially when there are allegations of a blockade. I am sorry that I don't have any references handy, but I can dig them up if it is important. (Mind you that non-interference in other country's affairs is a core principle of India's foreign policy from the days of Jawaharlal Nehru.) -- Kautilya3 (talk) 09:37, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. That would seem to run directly opposite to what my searches show for U.S. news media regarded as RS on WP. Any such refs would serve as useful counter-examples, so if you happen across them, great. And thanks for the cite to Nehru’s foreign policy; I see here that he “described the five pillars to be used as a guide for Sino-Indian relations, which were first put forth by Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai Called Panchsheel (five restraints), these principles would later serve as the basis of the Non-Aligned Movement. Jawaharlal Nehru was the architect of the Non-Alignment Movement.” Principle #3: “Mutual non-interference in domestic affairs” invokes ‘non-interference’ explicitly.

But my primary interest is to see if any here can identify similar use of the term ‘interference’ by a U.S. (or, if not that, any Western or allied nation) RS reporter to characterize U.S. intervention abroad? Anyone? tia, Humanengr (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, indeed. See also Non-Aligned Movement, of which Nehru was a champion. The Parchsheel agreement did not do much good for India because China still blamed India for CIA's interference in Tibet.^[1] This (mis)perception was one of the causes of the Sino-Indian War. Some scholars still believe that India was involved in Tibet. Knowing Nehru, I think it would have been highly unlikely.

The principle of non-interference had its roots in the anti-colonial movements, because colonialism was nothing but interference in the extreme. So, the former colonies would appreciate the worth of non-interference. The former colonial powers probably think it is a yawn. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 07:38, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And they continue to yawn while effectively pursuing similar ends under the heading of ‘foreign intervention’ (a neutral or positive term) rather than labeling it ‘interference’ (a more negative term). (Thx for the various details re Soviet, China, Tibet, India, CIA; that all rings bells.) Humanengr (talk) 10:23, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Please remember that the question asked is not: “Did country X interfere in country Y?” ... but “Did the media of country X use the term “interfere” when talking about what X was doing?” Most media would use more positive sounding terms if they approve of what X is doing... and would only use “interfere” if they disapprove. So... you would have to look at opposition media for the usage. Blueboar (talk) 12:13, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thx, Blueboar, and you’re exactly on point that the question is “Did the media of country X use the term ‘interfere’ when talking about what X was doing?”. Also thank you for the phrasing “if they approve” and “if they disapprove”. Using that, imagine two situations: 1) nation A takes action in nation B, and 2) nation C takes action in nation A. Media in nation A overwhelmingly approve #1 and characterize it as ‘intervention’ and disapprove #2 as ‘interference’. Just checking that makes sense before proceeding further. Humanengr (talk) 16:28, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, "intervention" does not necessarily indicate approval... but "interference" almost always indicates disapproval. I would suggest you explore media reports from the late 1960s regarding the US involvement in Vietnam... I doubt many US media outlets would have used "interference" in the early 1960s (when involvement was generally approved of in the US). However, by the late 1960s or 1970s attitudes had changed, and the chance that an outlet used "interference" goes way up. Do I know of a specific instance of the word being used? No... but I would be surprised if no one used it. Blueboar (talk) 17:58, 15 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Basically agree re ‘intervention’ and ‘interference’; the former typically neutral or positive, the latter negative. Also, thx for enunciating the temporal element.

Backing up a step, I’m realizing I should amend the § title to “National bias in WP RS re foreign ‘intervention’”. I struggled with the title as it is a compound topic, bringing in effects of national bias in news media, WP criteria for identifying media as RS, and weighing of RS for use. Your statement of the question captures the first part of that, but I wanted to indicate the broader context. Will write after further research. Humanengr (talk) 16:48, 16 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Blueboar and all, Offered for consideration:

A WP search for <"Russia interfered" OR "Russian interference”> yields 470 hits, the phrase appears in 3 as an article title; in many of the news media sources cited therein; and in the title of a WP ’Sister Project”, … . The phrase is freely used by U.S. reporters and editors to describe Russian actions.

In contrast, a WP search for <"America interfered" OR "American interference" OR "U.S. interfered" OR "U.S. interference”> yields 61 hits. In 0 of those 61 does the phrase appear with a supporting citation of a U.S. reporter using that phrase to characterize U.S. actions. Where it does appear, it is used, e.g., to characterize foreign perceptions of U.S. actions; with citation not to news media but to a book or an academic work; or without citation to a source.

(A search for <Vietnam “American interference”> yielded 5 hits, one of which was relevant. The mention was, again, that of foreign perception of U.S. actions.)

For further context, note that, per Foreign electoral intervention,

A 2016 study by Dov Levin found that, among 938 global elections examined, [fn: These covered the period between 1946 and 2000, and included 148 countries, all with populations above 100,000.] the United States and Russia [fn: including the former Soviet Union] combined had involved themselves in about one out of nine (117), with the majority of those (68%) being through covert, rather than overt, actions. The same study found that "on average, an electoral intervention in favor of one side contesting the election will increase its vote share by about 3 percent," an effect large enough to have potentially changed the results in seven out of 14 U.S. presidential elections occurring after 1960.[cite; fn: This is, as the author points out, "Assuming, of course, a similar shift in the relevant swing states and, accordingly, the electoral college." Others cites have argued that foreign electoral intervention is likely to have the opposite effect.] According to the study, the U.S. intervened in 81 foreign elections between 1946 and 2000, while the Soviet Union or Russia intervened in 36.[cite to Levin]

Further searches welcome.

To what does anyone attribute the above discrepancy between “Russian interference” and “American interference” in WP? Humanengr (talk) 02:52, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

People not creating articles.Slatersteven (talk) 15:56, 17 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And to what do you attribute the dearth of U.S. news media articles that characterize U.S. ‘interference’ as such? Humanengr (talk) 02:05, 9 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Slatersteven, How can users create articles that indicate the U.S. ‘interfered’ when so-called ‘Reliable Sources’ characterize U.S. actions as ‘intervention’ rather than ‘interference’? Humanengr (talk) 21:34, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Which sources, what exactly are you talking about?Slatersteven (talk) 22:03, 11 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that, AFAICS, there are -no- U.S. news media cited in WP that refer to U.S. actions in other nations as ‘interference’ rather than ‘intervention’. As I said above:

a WP search for <"America interfered" OR "American interference" OR "U.S. interfered" OR "U.S. interference”> yields 61 hits. In 0 of those 61 does the phrase appear with a supporting citation of a U.S. reporter using that phrase to characterize U.S. actions.

Can you find any instances where U.S. news media are cited in WP to refer to U.S. actions in other nations as ‘interference’ rather than ‘intervention’? Humanengr (talk) 01:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Slatersteven, Does that clarify? Humanengr (talk) 16:54, 12 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Slatersteven or anyone, Do you dispute that Russian actions are consistently characterized in WP as ‘interference’ whereas analogous U.S. actions are not? Humanengr (talk) 21:47, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is not what we say but what the sources say that matters. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly...and so what. RS in each language will tend to have a national bias. The Russian Wikipedia no doubt has the opposite bias because it uses Russian sources. So what? Just document what RS say. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:57, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The 'so what' is that it needlessly fractionates 'RS' as a standard and promotes conflict. Who does that serve? Humanengr (talk) 05:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:PRESERVEBIAS (essay). -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:59, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Should such gross bias be indicated or remain hidden? Humanengr (talk) 06:22, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would violate NPOV to interject editorial opinion or to hide it through censorship. Editors are supposed to remain neutral and faithfully document what RS say. Direct quotes are obviously what they are, and paraphrases should not deviate from a quote by whitewashing out any bias. It should be preserved. A lot of what we do here involves documenting bias, without taking sides. It is editors, not sources and content, which must be unbiased and neutral. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:PRESERVEBIAS: "This does not mean that no attempt should ever be made to rectify gross imbalance …". We seem to agree there is persistent national bias. To expect readers to accept such biased characterizations — when presented persistently — as 'verified' much less 'true' seems to be asking a lot. Humanengr (talk) 21:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that type of bias exists, cannot be avoided, and it is our job to document it, not neuter it, hide it, censor it, or even point it out (with our own comments or way of including it). That bias just might be the correct POV, because the correct POV is rarely in the middle. It's nearly always somewhere off-center. BUT, whether it's true or the correct POV or not is not our concern. We document all POV.

Each country, culture, and language will tend to have its own biases, ways of looking at things, and ways of expressing biases (IOW its view of what is true). Sometimes those biases are built right into the language. It is not our business to interfere in that. We must remain neutral and simply document it. We literally document a worldview. At the English Wikipedia, we document the worldview as presented primarily in English language sources, although no wiki is bound to only use their own language sources. We are allowed to translate and use sources from other languages.

Regarding "as 'verified' much less 'true'", we must prioritize "verifiability, not truth". That phrase used to be part of policy, and is still a fundamentally important concept to understand. There is an essay about it: [[WP:VNT. Our job as editors is not to allow our own ideas of truth (which are subjective) to influence our editing. We are not here to "right great wrongs". See the policy about that: WP:RGW. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re your 2nd para: A claim of 'verifiable' is quite an overreach when 'worldviews' conflict across 'countries, cultures, and languages'. 'Reliability' is certainly not assured. For such cases, the guidance in WP:NEWSORG and WP:SOURCE is inadequate. (Aside: Do you have a reference for the 'worldviews' term in WP policies, … ?) Humanengr (talk) 19:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"Interference" to some extent implies not only the action but success at it. For all of these cases, why not just neutral words that still convey the information? E.G "Efforts to influence".North8000 (talk) 15:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Because that would violate NPOV. We must preserve the meaning, bias, and intent of our sources. Articles are not OUR articles. We can use our own websites, blogs, Facebook, and Twitter for that. No, our job is to neutrally present biased content, warts and all. We aren't allowed to remove the warts first or put make-up on them. We must present content accurately to readers, without the content being affected by our filters. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 02:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If a notable figure says something, why is it considered more reliable if a newspaper quotes him than he appears in a YouTube video saying it? A newspaper might misquote him, or quote him out of context, but a video is extremely hard to alter, especially if it's livestreamed, for example, or from the figure's own account? (I think this has been brought up before?) Benjamin (talk) 05:00, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You have to keep in mind copyright violations when using YouTube videos. Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 10:21, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Besides that? Benjamin (talk) 10:38, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the publisher. If it's a news network or any other source with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, it's fine. A publication's reputation is established through other published works about that publication. Generally there is no problem citing YouTube videos unless original research or fringe views or isolated studies are involved. Bright☀ 12:10, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• As someone who has worked in video and photographic forensics, let me assure you that a video is not necessarily hard to alter to change someone's words or actions. It sometimes takes a certain level of skill, but said skill is rather easily acquired through practice, and the actual work of making such edits ranges from difficult-but-doable-for-a-professional to a-child-could-do-it. Producing a video that says the exact opposite of what the filmed subject actually said and which could fool the average person completely can and has been done by literal children with little to no experience.

That being said, video altered in that way is actually extremely uncommon, because a decent professional can usually spot the signs of editing and expose it as a fake. So it's actually perfectly acceptable to cite a YouTube video of person X making claim Y to support the statement that person X said Y in a youtube video. The problem is that such videos are primary sources. So we can make the edit I just described, but we can't use that source to say Y in wikivoice, except in very rare cases.

But to directly answer your question: Because of the reporter/interviewer and editor. Both of them can add tremendously to it; they can fact check Y, add contextual information that X may not have mentioned, correct misstatements that X might have made in saying Y that imply something which X absolutely did not intend, add information (such as caveats or pertinent details) given after the fact by X, etc, etc, etc.

Basically, it's the difference between a published newspaper article and a person telling you about the accident they saw. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:08, 22 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarrely there aren't a lot of sources for detailed info on this film but I've come across the below blog and associated document that go into amazing levels of detail on the behind the scenes goings on. Can anyone weigh in on your opinion as I really love the info there but I don't want to put it into the article if it's just gonna get knocked back at a GA or FA nomination. Thanks. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 21:34, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

• http://theoriginalfan.blogspot.co.uk/
• https://www.dropbox.com/s/8vq99ed4gwmdb7a/The%20Making%20of%20The%20Thing.pdf?dl=0

"This page is for discussions about the Identifying reliable sources guideline. For questions about the reliability of specific sources, see Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard." --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:38, 28 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Would WWI/WWII US draft registration cards be considered reliable? I'm attempting to track down a long deceased subject's actual birth date and place. The draft cards in question are definitely for the subject, but if they aren't considered reliable per standards, then I need to know so that I can discard them and continue my search elsewhere. Thank you! Syko1096 (talk) 04:52, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Where did you find them? The reliable sources policy says that sources must be available to the public. If this is some kind of publicly available government database, then it might be acceptable so long as the person's death has been confirmed in a reliable source. (If the death has not been confirmed, the BLP policy presumes that the person is alive for 115 years from the date of birth and this section of that policy says that public records cannot be used to establish facts about living persons.) If, on the other hand, you're looking at the original draft cards found among the person's personal effects, those don't meet the publication requirement of the policy and cannot be used as a source. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:02, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found them via ancestry.com's copy of the originals from the National Archives.

Ancestry.com. U.S., World War I Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations Inc, 2005. Original data: United States, Selective Service System. World War I Selective Service System Draft Registration Cards, 1917-1918. Washington, D.C.: National Archives and Records Administration. M1509, 4,582 rolls. Imaged from Family History Library microfilm.

I think this would count as publicly accessible (from the National Archives) and the subject has been deceased since 1976 (he'd be 123 if alive today). Thanks for your help! Syko1096 (talk) 22:08, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would seem to me that they're an okay source in this instance. Others may disagree. There might (or might not) be some issue about the information routing through Ancestry, I've seen some discussion about issues with using Ancestry (which may not apply in this particular instance; I don't really remember the issues which were raised), but a link to the original National Archives record ought to be okay. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 22:52, 19 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I would be concerned about the legitimacy of the records if they were transcriptions, but these are pretty high quality scanned images of the actual cards (front and back). so I think they're pretty safe to use. I appreciate all of the discussion and feedback! Syko1096 (talk) 12:16, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What a interesting and informative discussion. I'm sure I will need to refer to this someday, thanks!Sgerbic (talk) 19:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find any concrete info on this on Wikipedia. Ads are usually not fully accurate and reliable but sometimes users use them for citation. What's wiki's stance on them? Eddmanx (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Depending for what statement exactly is sourced, maybe (e.g. a release date). But in general no, especially since most important information about something will have been picked up elsewhere. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 23:22, 18 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It depends... An advertisement would be a reliable PRIMARY source for a statement about content of the advertisement itself... but not a reliable source for the accuracy of the content.

To give an example... an advertisement for Lucky Strike cigarettes dating from the 1950s and talking about how “healthy” their cigarettes are, would be absolutely reliable for the statement: “In the 1950s, Lucky Strike cigarettes were advertised as being healthy”... but it would NOT be reliable for the statement “Lucky Strike cigarettes were considered healthy in the 1950s”. Blueboar (talk) 21:22, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is a good example, and for the record, most of the times (all of the times?) I've seen advertisements uncontroversially accepted as a source they have been from the pre-internet age, and probably mostly from around the mid 19th to early 20th century... or even earlier. GMG^talk 21:29, 22 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Since people who are interested in the subject of reliable sources tend to flock here, I'm just placing this here for your enjoyment.

This popular chart, created by patent attorney Vanessa Otero, is very carefully researched. Yes, it's not a RS here....yet, but it's the best I know of.

• "How does your favorite news source rate on the 'truthiness' scale? Consult this chart" is a short article about the chart.

Since then she has created an even better version. Her article about it is located here:

• The Chart, Version 3.0: What, Exactly, Are We Reading?

Although it's possible for a source to be fairly partisan and still factually accurate, there comes a point at which partisanship and spin begins to twist and distort facts. The chart shows the intricate relationship between opinions and facts, and how partisanship affects them.

The more one allows opinions to dominate facts, the further away from the purely-factual center and the raw-news-reporting top one moves. That's why Fox News rates both low and extreme. Even sources like CNN, where analysis isn't as high as some others, still remains fairly close to center. Note the colored boxes. Have fun exploring this. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 06:08, 20 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Official documents of USA are disclosed and placed public domain after a certain period. They are archived at National Archive and Record Agency and available to anyone upon request. Are they considered to be reliable source, or the original research? Are they less reliable than papers published by historians? Wordmasterexpress (talk) 09:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC) Wordmasterexpress (talk) 09:20, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

they are reliable PRIMARY sources, for which detailed rules apply. Interpretation of what they mean is strongly discouraged--wiki uses reliable SECONDARY sources (vetted by independent experts outside the government agency). see WP:PRIMARY. Rjensen (talk) 10:50, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

And they cannot be used at all as sources for information about living persons or some deceased persons, see WP:BLPPRIMARY. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:35, 13 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This plea was submitted to the help desk, however I think it is also relevant here as it is a relevant case for questioning the validity of internet forums as a source of information: Hello all,

The article Geoff Green was denied today as it lacked reliable sources. At this point of time, I would simply ask Wikipedia to reconsider their position that references relating to the source, phogue.net as being unreliable. Phogue.net is a very critical source and important in creating the article's notability beyond being a simple eSports gamer. Firstly, I would like to say that phogue.net is a primary source that is directly relevant to Green's achievements. This source can be verified by cross-referencing to the other sources provided in the original article.

My case in defending this source's validity is based on the accountability that is provided on the website. This isn't a simple opinionated blog, it was a hub for everything concerning the official Procon product. I would like to point out that over 1087 pages of users who have registered with the website. This is a demonstration of the interest surrounding Green's business. I would like to point out that all the sources I provided from this website were directly relevant and were the source of official news for this product. Green's announcements only ever specifically focused on providing updates to his consumer base regarding his product's releases or updates on the development of the product. Considering for his niche market within the community of the Frostbite engine he was extremely notable. Based on his success of Procon, he was the subject of an interview within the Battlefield Communities (sourced). I also have demonstrated his product being recommended externally on Cybergamer, Australia's leading eSports organisation since 2007.

When concerning the article that is being created, he was a notable public figure to both software developers and consumers within the Frostbite community. His success was determined by what is a marketing piece, not an opinion piece for his product. It is also important to note, that users have the ability to discuss directly with the developers as either commenting on the news articles or posting on the forums.

This leads me to my next point. Currently, Wikipedia doesn't seem to want to recognise an internet forum as a legitimate source of credible material. However, I disagree with this assertion. Both eSports and eCommerce are a growing field which are rapidly integrating various technological elements. This is no doubt evident by phogue.net to whom is difficult to classify as it has integrated various referential material into a single source. I am a supporter of the idea that an internet forum has the same sort of legitimacy as either a video or an audio recording, however it being only in virtual reality. The only difficulty in its validity is it can be difficult to establish the true identity of whom the users involved in the discussion.

However if sufficient evidence is demonstrated between a link with a forum user and a real life individual (to which I think I have a very strong case between the link of Geoff Green and the pseudonym, Phogue) then I cannot see any reason why internet forums should not be considered a valid source. Especially since it was the hub for which a business owner could have a public and direct conversation with their consumer base. In fact, if it is possible to establish a link between a pseudonym and a real life individual, then I am of the opinion that internet forums should be classified as an incredibly reliable source of information.

Thankyou for reading and I eagerly await your response.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 13:10, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Video and audio recordings are often not a terribly reliable source, in that they depend on the interpretation of individual editors to describe what is being seen or heard, and we would normally defer to secondary sources who themselves summarize what is happening in the primary source of the recording.

Internet forums are not a reliable source because no one exercises editorial control over the content, in a way which ensures a sustained history of fact checking and accuracy. Anyone can post anything there, and then claim their own post as the source for the content. As with video or audio, if the content of an internet forum is itself examined, and then published about by a reliable secondary source, then we may use the content of that publication as a source for information about the forum or related topics, because it has been vetted and fact checked by the secondary source, and found to meet their standards for accuracy and relevancy. GMG^talk 13:20, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

EyesoftheFlash makes the point that an internet forum can be reliable if the link between the user name in the forum and the real person can be firmly established. However, read WP:RSPRIMARY, WP:SELFPUB and Wikipedia:Notability (people). Forum posts would usually be primary sources and self-published sources, so the situations in which they could be cited in Wikipedia are limited. Also, secondary sources are required to establish that a person is notable enough for Wikipedia to have an article about the person. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:56, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thankyou for the responses. Firstly I would like to say that most forums do have regulation as they usually overseen by an administrator or a moderator whom ensure the conversation doesn't breach the rules or guidelines of the forum. Secondly, forums are usually sectioned off into discussion boards to ensure that the threads that are created remain relevant to a specific topic or train of thought. I can see the point about primary sources, my article had an over-reliance on a single primary source which is probably why it was rejected. However I still think that the internet Forums can help redeem the article and the source.

I'll make mention of the concept of integration which is rapidly increasing in most modern technologies. An internet forum would be both a primary and secondary source. The primary source would of course be the individual of whom the topic is being directly referred. However, every other post that is not posted by the primary source would be a secondary source. Now I completely understand that interpretation could really harm certain threads validity. Particularly if a user posts opinions that are vague or are too opinionated (blogging). What truely regulates a thread topic is how relevant the posts are to reacting what is in the original topic.

For sure, some threads wouldn't be relevant. Blogging threads like, for example a thread that's titled 'Who's better, Obama or Trump?'. However for example in my case, I am attempting to publish an article about a software developer. If this developer posts a thread that is asking about something that is directly relevant to his notability such as a thread titled 'New Release. Post here for known bugs' is more valid. The secondary sources will thereafter directly respond to what the primary source has posted. Thereafter if the secondary sources all are reliably consistent in their responses ( such as known bugs ) which are then cross-referenced by the primary source, this in my opinion enhances validity. Of course, it will be very difficult or nearly impossible to validate the real life personas in most cases for the secondary sources, however it is my opinion that in this case it is more important about what is said rather than who said it.

Certainly when using an internet forum, its information and how it is used on Wikipedia should be very closely scrutinized. However, I certainly think that given the context and how the forum source has been utilised , then under certain situations a forum thread can be classified as a credible source.

Regards,

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's... not what "secondary source" means. Citing a discussion on an internet forum is no different for our purposes than citing mail correspondence your grandmother wrote, that you found in a box in the attic. One is in your attic, and the other is online, but they're both essentially just personal correspondence, and they're both primary sources regardless of how many people are involved in the exchange. Neither contributes to notability regardless of how much personal correspondence you can unearth. GMG^talk 15:11, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Its contextual and adaptable. If I was making an article about the product, then the whole thread 'New Release. Post here for known bugs' would be a primary source. However, if I was looking for a reference specifically for an individual then they are the author and creator of their own user profile. They therefore have direct control over their own profile and are the primary source. So for example, you could make an official announcement or declaration of the topic to which that user controls, however what that user does not control is the reaction or the authorship of the other individuals who comment in the topic. Forums are an active source of influence.

For example, a secondary source could start a forum thread discussing a particular user's (primary source) skill in-game (eSports reference here). A number of secondary sources could be discussing the skill of the individual who is considered the primary source. The primary source is not responsible for controlling what others have said (or haven't said).

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 15:45, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Summary of the above replies you got, adding mine to it, is that your suggestion to change guidelines is not accepted, for the reasons given. As a request to vet the sources proposed for Draft: Geoff Green according to current guidance, this isn't the place for it: WP:RSN is. Nonetheless, the sources are rejected as not contributing to establishing notability of the article subject and as too unreliable to base Wikipedia content on them. On this basis the draft should be either shredded, or if they want to give you another chance at AfC, be rebuilt on a totally different basis. RSN would not normally yield a different result: going there may likely precipitate the abortion of the draft. Sorry for not being able to bring you more joyful news: forum post in the sense you describe them above are always primary sources, and generally unreliable, in Wikipedia context. --Francis Schonken (talk) 16:04, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) In the case of something like a verified official Twitter account, we can and do use things like that for mundane personal details, things like what town someone's from or what college they went to. But it doesn't contribute to notability, since anyone can register a Twitter account.

Other than that, you're still confusing the meaning of primary and secondary sources. An internet forum, regardless of how many people participate in a thread, is still a primary source. A secondary source would be something like this Washington Post story, talking about Reddit, which is itself an internet forum. GMG^talk 16:05, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, heading off to bed after this one.

If you read my information more carefully you will have noticed, I was referring to this talk page as an example for how internet forums could be used. I plan to rewrite that article a few more times before I give up on it. I am bringing up this topic to give a better chance for internet forums to be accepted as reliable pieces of information. There is a reason why I submitted this article in both the help desk and in this topic. My topic of expertise is eSports to which is a growing field that Wikipedia in its current state has limited knowledge. Its history is incredibly chaotic and is very hard to present on Wikipedia as reliable evidence.

People are starting to build the history of eSports ever since it began to take off internationally only a few years ago. However much of its early history is incredibly grey, chaotic and is very difficult to form a clear picture. Being able to build a history of what is happening in the realm of eSports is largely only possible through internet forums. You mentioned in Wikipedia context, the current definition of a primary source, although due to integration I personally now think that term is disputable. If we run with the current definition then the forum is a primary source and should not be used as it is not reliable. However lets say there is a scenario where a secondary source wishes to discuss a notable event that occurred on an online forum. They make an article discussing the primary source, however in doing so that article is less reliable, even if it is a well reputed source, because it is not the direct primary source. Internet forums are very easily accessed primary sources and can in circumstances be grounds for demonstrating how one became actively notable.

For Wikipedia, I am primarily focussing on eSports. In my field, I guarantee most eSports players began their careers on forums. Particularly the earlier generations. Furthermore this could extend to programmers ( the subject of my article is both notable as an esports gamer and programmer ). Lets think about the context instead of an individual. What if you could find some groundbreaking software designer's old forum profile and you could actively see through the forum posts as to how he / her met fellow individuals and their interactions that potentially helped build for success. That is certainly grounds for notability. It would be less reliable evidence if you went through some news article as a source when you could just get the direct forum post.

Regards and good night,

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If the content of the forum is covered in a secondary source, is it more reliable, and not less. This is because the person who is writing for that secondary source, writes for a living and writes for an institution that exercises editorial oversight over what they produce. You and I do not, and that is why we use their research, and not ours. GMG^talk 16:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quite frankly that's absolutely ridiculous. That just demonstrates deficiency in Wikipedia's reliability and validity methods if that is truly the case. Primary sources are always the most valid and reliable. You learn this stuff at your high school library...

Wikipedia is a public source to which is perfectly capable of establishing its own accountability methods (and has done so), you basically mention that Wikipedia should rely on other's validity and reliability methods when it has its own? If that is the case, then every time we use a secondary source, Wikipedia has to ensure that it complies with their validity and reliability methods rather than its own...

Oh and I did lay down in bed. Does that count as going to bed?

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 18:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relying on other's validity and reliability methods is Wikipedia's validity and reliability method. And yes, every time we use a source we need to verify their reliability. You may think that is ridiculous, and that's perfectly fine. That doesn't change the fact that we are not publishers of original research, and primary sources are the lowest form of sources, and can only be used sparingly if at all on Wikipedia. GMG^talk 18:58, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Wikipedia,

You see this article?

Sigmund Freud.

Check the sources, you'll find nearly the entire page is comprised of entirely primary sources. This is not reliable information and you should probably delete this entire page.

Maybe you should get some new policies...???

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 19:31, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

No, it looks like most of those are books, about 70 of them. Another at least 20 or so seem to be peer reviewed scholarly publications. GMG^talk 19:43, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah. If they have original information. Its a primary source. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 19:45, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Have you actually read Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources before coming here to complain about the policy? GMG^talk 19:46, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You can't argue your way out of this one. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So no. Here's the down and dirty. Web forums are not a reliable source, period. We're not changing that for your article. You need to go and take the time to read the actual definitions of primary and secondary sources. Then you should find some secondary sources for your draft. If they do not exist, then the subject is likely non-notable, and an article will have to wait until these types of sources do exist.

If you want be a detective and scour internet forums to find out the "real story" so you can write about it, the appropriate place to do that would be in a blog, or a related industry publication. If you want to use high quality sources to help build the most valuable resource for access to free knowledge in the history of our species, the appropriate place to do that is Wikipedia. GMG^talk 19:58, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with GMG. There are zillions of reliable secondary sources out there, and if they all seem to be avoiding topic XYZ that's a good reason for Wikipedia to avoid it. The news these days is full of manipulated fake news--the Russians have spent lots of rubles (and dollars) with hundreds of programmers to influence political attitudes in Europe and the USA, for example. It's a dangerous world and Wiki needs to keep very high standards so that we will be trusted more. Rjensen (talk) 20:08, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yep GMG is getting it correct. EyesoftheFlash we all understand that there are internet communities out there and people in them get information that is important to them from whatever chat forum they have picked, whether that is a company website or something like a reddit subpage. That is where you are coming from, clearly. But Wikipedia is not part of the blogosphere or an extension of those kinds of chat forums. WP is on the internet and is open to all comers, but part of coming here means actually reading our manual. A lot of stuff here doesn't make sense at first, but the policies and guidelines were built by this community over the past 16 or 17 years (!) to make this place possible - on the internet, open to anyone, editing pseudonomously if they wish. High quality independent sources are the basis for everything there. Think about some group you really don't like, and think about the internet forum where they gather. Do you want them to be able to come here and source stuff about their heros using stuff from their forums? That would be a nightmare for you I am sure, and you would want to bring content from some forum of people who think different... and this would devolve into a shouting match over whose forum was better at one end of bad - a nightmare of warring, low quality "bubbles". At the other end of bad the page would just be fancruft, all sourced from within one bubble. Neither thing is what we do here. We are not part of that whole mess, by design. Please look for high quality independent sources about the person, and write the article based on them (not what you know). This is laid out at greater length in User:Jytdog/How which I wrote to explain what we are up to and how do things to new users, all on one page. It has a section on creating a new article, after the foundational stuff is explained. Jytdog (talk) 20:31, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is way off the point

@EyesoftheFlash: -- Back to the top of your post: article Geoff Green was denied today as it lacked reliable source. - Sorry, you missed important points. The declining notice in full says:

"published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject—see the guidelines on the notability of people, the golden rule and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue." In other words, the major issue is not the reliability of the sources, but lack of independent coverage.

Please go back and click on all wikilinks in the notice. Geoff Green may be famous in his gaming microcommunity, just as my grandma is famous for best pancakes in the county, but this is not enough for a wikipedia article.

That said, primary sources may be used in wikipedia, and the the subject's bio may use posts of this subject about himself, per WP:PRIMARY. But this was not the point of the problem with Draft: Geoff Green; the point is that nobody knows him outside his game buddies. Staszek Lem (talk) 21:51, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ummm, no offence but my page is actually more verifiable than Albert Einstein's. How many of those primary sources can you actually verify that what the information in it is said to be true. Particularly as I have given you unquestionable evidence that Wikipedia reliability methods are completely unchecked. The only "fake news" is actually coming from Wikipedia. If you look at the original publication of my article, it is in fact easily cross-examined for the evidence. It is reliably consistent. How much of Freud and Einstein as well I don't want to think how many other pages rely on private primary sources to which Wikipedia cannot verify. If what you told me is true about the use of primary sources, then if Wikipedia is correct then I think it has to delete almost all the information on the site. I think the above posts are doing everything they can to avoid the true point.

That would be terrible if Wikipedia was legitimately purged, I am not at all suggesting that. However, I have given you clear evidence that Wikipedia's reliability and validity methods are not working. I have also been constructive and suggested a particular area on how Wikipedia could improve this. Its not me and my article thats being unreliable, its Wikipedia. However I warn you, if a rogue Admin went around and deleted all of Wikipedia's major pages, then they would be well within their guidelines as they only have to refer here to this post to justify their reason for doing so.

I want to make the standpoint that I am entirely against this. But Wikipedia has got to the point that it can no longer control its reliability and validity methods. The influx of information is too great.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 04:59, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also since people keep wanting to talk about my article. Its quite normal for people to have Wikipedia articles when they are notable within only a small section of society. Geoff Green is a public figure and set significant precedent over what is classified as a "professional" eSports gamer. He came from the preceding generation to the current generation whom have been given significantly more publicity. For historical purposes as well as understanding the greater debate over the legitimacy of eSports, Green has a valuable contribution to make. The article was supported by the eSports Taskforce. I know its not relevant here, but I remind you I only used it as an example for the above debate. I'm not the one who kept bringing up its contents. But thankyou :)

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 05:08, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

What you have made clear so far, is that you are firmly rooted in your way of thinking about knowledge. You are not dealing with Wikipedia as it is, and what it is. Again all I can do is point you to what everyone else here has said to you, and the orientation I linked to above.

Please be aware that while Wikipedia is open to anyone, that openness is contingent on user's learning the policies and guidelines and following them - not just their letter but their spirit. People who refuse to engage usually get themselves in trouble, and leave angry or have their editing privileges restricted or removed. Instead of trying to change everything before you understand it, please take the time to understand this place. It is for your own benefit and that of everyone else here too. Jytdog (talk) 05:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Don't put this on me, I wasn't the one who started spouting invalid information. I was making a legitimate query, which has subsequently escalated once I have noticed that other users have provided false information. I have a very specific agenda here on Wikipedia and that is to improve the website's eSports knowledge. It is undoubtedly a weak area that needs to be developed. However my original problem was that is hard to publish this information as Wikipedia doesn't regard certain sources that are necessary for its history as legitimate. I was subsequently told by Wikipedia that reliance on primary sources is against the guidelines. However most major articles, particularly in academics or science are in direct contravention of these guidelines. This is unquestionable, you may as well just admit and develop from there. Its not fair or just that some articles are given special treatment just because of their level of notability ( which in itself is subjective ).

I am not at all suggesting Wikipedia has malicious intent. I'm not sure how long its policies have existed, but the internet has significantly evolved since 2005. I keep mentioning the concept of integration where knowledge and technology are increasing being merged together. Furthermore, Wikipedia is ever expanding and its simply not being regulated properly. This may be unavoidable, however it is instead a legitimate warning that it currently says Wikipedia cannot control itself. However it also works in reverse as rogue admins could now delete numerous pages due to the precedent has been set here. There is absolutely no doubt of contradictory behaviour coming from Wikipedia.

It wouldn't wise to delete my permissions, that just says you are reacting out of fear of the problem. I am being constructive, especially as my whole purpose is to develop a section of Wikipedia's knowledge. I am fighting for the eSports corner of Wikipedia and have demonstrated I have a legitimate concern. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 05:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nope, you have no legitimate concern. You do have 51 edits in Wikipedia and are demonstrating no understanding of our policies and guidelines or why they are structured that way or any interest in gaining an understanding of them.

You are like the American in Paris being all angry that nobody speaks English and that nobody will accept his dollars when he tries to buy stuff.

Try understanding the place you are in, instead of trying to make it into the place you came from.

I have no more to say here. Jytdog (talk) 06:13, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Okay I'll look into more detail concerning the policies. Let's start with 'No original research'.

"Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources." - So why is it acceptable that some articles are based entirely off primary sources? Particularly Sigmund Freud to whom as an example is largely referenced by books to whom user's are likely to be unable to be accessed publicly. Albert Einstein is somewhat more legitimate as he at least has external links to which he can be verified more easily. However both articles have the common factor in that they have an over-reliance of primary sources. Particularly with Freud there is a huge grey area concerning whether an original analysis has been used. Freud has a demonstration of private information being used to source on a website that is a public encyclopedia.

Concerning my article, noone has questioned its verifiability, however its reliability was somewhat questioned. As I have said in my original post, I think there are grounds for Wikipedia to take into account internet forums as a more reliable source than what is currently being considered. I refer to my original post for my reasoning there. However even if it is a primary source, Wikipedia has set notable precedent here that it largely relies on primary sources despite its recommendations that it shouldn't. However an advantage in my favour, that unlike a journal article or a book it is in fact much easier to verify an internet forum as to whether original research has been undertaken. In my article, when quoting a forum I do not make any individual stand-point, I simply convey the necessary information that is relevant to the subject of the article. Any user can easily verify if what I said is the true standpoint in the original source. Although the reliability of the information is debatable, its verification is not. I would argue that articles like Einstein and Freud (particularly Freud) have their sources as more reliable but is more difficult to verify.

In regards to notability, do I have to mention the articles that have 2-3 lines at max? I'm willing to bet there are one sentence articles out there. The subject of my article was undoubtedly a public figure.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 06:55, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

TL;DR – the answer is no, as well regarding the proposal to change current policies and guidelines (please don't misrepresent these by selective quoting or trying to superimpose a rationale foreign to the actual policies and guidelines) as regarding the rejection of Draft: Geoff Green in its current state. Please also familiarise yourself with WP:TPG, regarding indentation, conciseness, etc. --Francis Schonken (talk) 07:24, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How would you know if its a misrepresentation if you "TL;DR". Its a direct demonstration of your policies...

If you re-read your posts, you have lesser understanding. I don't blame you for wanting to save your reputation.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 07:36, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I apologise, just realised English isn't your first language.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 07:40, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On one of your points, "Particularly Sigmund Freud to whom as an example is largely referenced by books to whom user's are likely to be unable to be accessed publicly." WP accepts that to access a source you may have to buy it, pay for it or visit a library and we're good with that, see WP:SOURCEACCESS. Free online sources are practical, but interesting and useful stuff is also found elsewhere. Books can be very interesting. And English is not my first language either. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, however regardless of whether Wikipedia accepts that it is acceptable to provide an unlinked source, its still marked against verification. If someone wanted to question a passage on the article for original thought, the article will either have to be verified with the original source (may be difficult or not possible) or the article may lose legitimate information (because its been questioned and isn't verifiable). I still maintain the position that Wikipedia is having difficulty controlling its sources. As this will help people like myself whom want to introduce a new field of information to Wikipedia, I would suggest that Wikipedia be more open to accepting new information.

That being said, if Wikipedia becomes more liberal in accepting new articles and information, it should be much harsher on unsourced passages. There are plenty of examples ( I know I don't need to tell you ) that there is plenty of unsourced material on Wikipedia. I also think the page should have a public rating as to how reliable the sources are considered. Even such notable pages as Sigmund Freud should remind users that whilst its heavily sourced and is undoubtedly notable, the information is difficult to verify.

Wikipedia simply needs an update. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 08:11, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the internet is vast and there are alternatives like Everipedia and Infogalactic. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:48, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I somewhat agree with you. Whilst I am new to Wikipedia, I have managed the F1 Wiki as the most active administrator since 2009. The reason I did not use Wikipedia is because I wanted to focus on developing what would be considered minor pages on Wikipedia with much more detail. Take at the comparison between the size of the Wikipedia article of a particularly minor racing driver and the F1 wiki article:

• Joe Fry
• http://f1.wikia.com/wiki/Joe_Fry

This very minor F1 driver, if that data were to be transferred to Wikipedia would far surpass much more notable racing drivers articles. However, I am starting be of the opinion (particularly after the Geoff Green article) that if someone of minor notability surpasses the size of a person whom is technical more notable. Then that more notable person is simply incomplete. Also you'll note the reliance on primary sources in my F1 article, much like many of Wikipedia's most notable articles. Also yes, I am allowed to be lazy on the formality of referencing on a minor Wiki :)

But in all seriousness, just as you failed my article for not technically not having reliable information, I could investigate any article to which relies on sources that are private information and are unlinked on the grounds of validity. If you cannot publicly access the sources, then there is very reasonable grounds that the author has used original thought in the topic. This could be potentially be very damaging for Wikipedia's reputation. If someone were to question these sources given Wikipedia's current policies as well as if the sources are unable to be verified, then they would have to be removed on the grounds of potentially be original thought.

This is why I think Wikipedia needs to be more open to accepting sources. Rather than simply preventing pages from being created or removing private sources, Wikipedia should allow the posting of these sources, but regulate and publicly reveal the pages validity and reliability rating.

EyesoftheFlash (talk) 09:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@EyesoftheFlash: could you have a look at the WP:SPA guidance? I'd like to see more edits of you in other topic areas than Geoff Green, which might help you to catch up on how RS and notability guidance is applied throughout Wikipedia. If you have a broader interest in eSports/video games there is for instance Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games (see also its talk page) which might give some worthwhile suggestions. Thanks. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:34, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Good point but I'm not single purpose, as I've said, I've also demonstrated and have even more expertise in Formula One. I am potentially interested in transferring my Formula One work to Wikipedia (which in many cases has more valid and reliable information than Wikipedia's current understanding). Also I am aware of notability. I would say Geoff Green covers notability under "Persons who are notable due to public responsibility" as quoted from the article. Also the notability articles has multiples grounds to have some of its information on the grounds of original thought. :) EyesoftheFlash (talk) 09:43, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Formula One: in that case Wikipedia:WikiProject Automobiles might be of help. Don't know whether there's a separate project about racing (haven't found it anyway). About notability of Geoff Green: as said, according to current policies and guidelines, and there's no reason why these would need changing, the answer you have got is no. Now drop the stick on that one, thanks. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:56, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This could potentially come back to bite you. This is a serious chink in your armour. For a starting point, a lot of Sigmund Freud's information is invalidated and has grounds for being original thought. If the sources can't be publicly accessed, then they will have to be removed based on heresay. Exactly the same reasoning you would have used for not permitting my article to be published. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 10:09, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Re. Freud: there's currently a {{refimprove}} tag at Sigmund Freud#Early psychoanalytic movement, so there's surely room for improvement of the references in that article. If you'd like to work on that one, please go ahead, but would advise to do so via Talk:Sigmund Freud to get collaboration from others. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:21, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You know I don't want to delete information. That's not why I am here, but that information deserves to be deleted if Wikipedia is not consistent in applying its policies. As do all references without validation or information that is not sourced. I am sure you are aware that is quite easy to cripple Wikipedia whilst still playing within the rules. A public purge is certainly not unreasonable due to Wikipedia's inconsistency. This is why I think it legitimately is time for an overhaul of Wikipedia's policies. That way there is fairness for all. Notability is subjective, if one performs a public duty then they have notability. So long as you can link a person's public actions with their true persona, then you have a demonstrated evidence that a person's actions are valid to be on Wikipedia. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 10:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your rationale for overhauling guidance is at this moment, excuse my French, flimsy at best. Please, do get some more experience on how policies and guidelines are operational in practice, i.e. by editing articles, collaboration with other editors, etc. If by the time your account is extended autoconfirmed you still feel the same, we might talk policy again, but at the time such discussions seem way too premature. --Francis Schonken (talk) 10:53, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough, it was a polite suggestion to ensure consistency and integrity throughout Wikipedia. What is not flimsy, is the case I have made for purging invalidated sources for original thought. I could quite easily delete much of Wikipedia's information without reason for being banned. If there happened to be a movement behind me, a lot of "notable" articles are going to be much smaller. Then again I am not going to act rashly, I'm going to take a break. I've got a life to get back to and I'll take some time to set up my account for you. EyesoftheFlash (talk) 11:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Original thought in reliable secondary sources, that is, before the thought is adopted in mainstream reliable sources on the topic, can often be retained in Wikipedia (that is: if carrying enough weight) via a technique called in-text attribution. Example, last paragraph of this article section: Bist du bei mir#History. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:32, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Any source, be it primary or secondary that is not publicly accessible through the internet is subject to be removed on grounds of original thought given the current policies. Wikipedia is now experiencing conflict in freedom of information. Integration will either destroy or remake Wikipedia. The new era has began. *Calls virtual reality trumpets and banners* EyesoftheFlash (talk) 11:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The other users in this discussion have combined, more than 50 years of experience editing Wikipedia, and each of them have told you that you are wrong. You can choose to listen, or you can choose not to, but we're not going to carry on this discussion for another four pages so that you can simply refuse to get the point. GMG^talk 11:52, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not wrong, why do you want to slowly kill Wikipedia? EyesoftheFlash (talk) 11:54, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]