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Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. Click here to purge this page (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Shortcut WP:WQA Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
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Hey,

I'm having problems with Colonel Warden at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ann Barker (Civil Servant). I am struggling to believe he is assuming good faith (excuse the irony!) and he is more interested in attacking me and the steps I followed than discussing the matter at hand. I am worried I will lose my cool and would appreciate intervention.

Looking at his talk page, I see other people have had problems too. Computerjoe's talk 15:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just notified. Apologies if I don't sound very neutral. I am just somewhat annoyed. Computerjoe's talk 15:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I have some opinions about this situation, but I would like to wait for his response to your posting to make any further comments. The Seeker 4 Talk 16:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• The AFD process, by its nature, is adversial. Nominations to delete the work of other editors undergo challenge so that this work is not removed improperly. Asking whether a nomination has followed the process laid out at WP:BEFORE is a proper question in this context and editors should not take this personally. Colonel Warden (talk) 16:15, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pretty sure I posted this link to AfD etiquette not that long ago about a different WQA. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • My issue is that what I went through doesn't matter. The article's notability does. We should argue that, not steps taken. Computerjoe's talk 17:31, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • The steps taken before a nomination are how one determines notability. If an editor hasn't done the necessary work before nomination, xe has zero grounds for stating that something is not notable. So asking whether you did the requisite work, when you state nothing about doing so in your nomination, is a perfectly valid question, and an issue that has taken editors to RFC before now. Your nomination was a bad one. It stated no deletion-policy-based rationale for deletion at all. Make good nominations, and you won't have people questioning you. If you want something deleted via AFD, explain why you think that deletion policy applies. Follow the recommendations at User:Uncle G/On notability#Giving rationales at AFD and head off the questions before they are even asked.

        If you want to ask "Is this notable?" the correct template is {{notability}}, not {{subst:afd1}}. AFD is where you come after you have determined, by doing your homework beforehand, that something is not notable. And if you've done your homework beforehand, then for goodness' sake state what you did in your nomination! The rest of the world are not mind-readers. Uncle G (talk) 11:34, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

    • Also, the editor made several implicit personal attacks (such as presuming I was ignorant). Computerjoe's talk 17:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• Being disputatious at AfD is not a wikiquette issue and editors are free to cite things like WP:BEFORE (not relevant in this case, but...). I don't really see a personal attack. The nomination is fine (I agree with it, in fact), but other editors are free to disagree and disengagement is probably the best course of action. Eusebeus (talk) 17:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dispute is obviously fine but 'I question whether you have done the slightest work on this topic per WP:BEFORE or whether this is just a drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance?' does strike me as a little rude. I shall disengage, following your advice. Computerjoe's talk 17:56, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes you are right, it is rude and others may think it a valid WQA issue. My view is that with editors like Colonel Warden, who see themselves as committed to a righteous fight to save content and ramp up their OTT rhetoric accordingly, this kind of slur is best ignored. It doesn't convince; don't let it shouldn't provoke. Eusebeus (talk) 18:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
• I don't see anything wrong with him asking you that sort of question at all. Not rude at all. And you shouldn't nominate something that has already been nominated, without reading all the discussion from previous. Dream Focus (talk) 19:26, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you don't think language like "drive-by deletion grounded in ignorance" is at least problematic, I urge you to review our policies on engagement with other editors. Eusebeus (talk) 19:45, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The problem here is a disagreement over the use of the term "ignorance". Officially it means "lack of knowledge", but the word has evolved to mean "stupidity" and/or "rudeness". As such, based on the typical action of the Colonel the word may have been carefully chosen to be ambiguous. We're not fooled. If a warning does not already exist on his page, it will very shortly. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 10:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – to RfC or mediation. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hiya!

I wonder if someone (or ones) can stop by East-West Schism and Talk:East-West Schism. We're having several issues over there:

• Editors who believe that NPOV is achieved by inserting POV content into the article to encourage other editors with differing POVs to balance it out.
• Editors who make 5-10 minor edits to the talk page of the article rather than using the Preview button.
• Editors who label any disagreement with them "Edit Warring," and other failures to WP:AGF.
• Editors who use the talk page of the article as a forum.
• Editors who act as if they own the article.

It'd be great to get a few new sets of eyes to look this one over. Thanks a lot! LOL^thulu 22:54, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I didn't read this page carefully enough. The editor I have specifically in mind is User:LoveMonkey. LOL^thulu 22:59, 5 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide diffs for the specific civility issue. Most of your list does not apply here. --HighKing (talk) 13:51, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Read the talk page. He fails to AGF from the very top. LOL^thulu 03:37, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To be frank, most of your list suggests that you should try filing an WP:RFC of some sort; an article RFC ideally. Mediation is a good alternative to an article RFC if you're having trouble talking to each other, but you'll both need to consent to this step. Good luck! Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:20, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – RfC, mediation or an admin noticeboard if there's still issues. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Outnumbering users in a dispute is not an excuse to edit war to hide or downplay the seriousness of the dispute. It's obvious on that discussion page that there are multiple disputes regarding the guide, by multiple users, that have yet to be concluded. Multiple advocates for a guide that is obviously WP:CREEP removed tags before discussion has ended to downplay the seriousness of the discussion [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8]. At one point a User:Kotniski modified the tags refusing to accept that there were multiple disputes[9] [10] [11]. I was falsely reported of violating WP:3RR just for fulfilling that same users request to complete his modified version of the tag [12] [13]. And then he reverted what he requested after all that [14] which was more of a violation of WP:3RR than my fulfillment of his request. He also removed the original RFC before the 30 days[15] since the only response hasn't been in favor of the guide[16]. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:58, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The diffs provided indicate an article dispute not a lack of civility. Citing a 3RR posting which resulted in the complainant being blocked[[17]] does not make a compelling case. Gerardw (talk) 22:41, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It wasn't just me that they were edit warring. User:Termer put the dispute tag there. Should I report it at the administrators notice board? Oicumayberight (talk) 23:53, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't understand what this is about. I've just been trying to focus the discussion - and the tags - on the section of the page that the "dispute" is actually about, in order to actually get somewhere. If every page that one or two users have some minor problem with is going to be marked at the top as disputed, then we might as well put a disputed tag at the top of every policy/guideline/essay page as a matter of routine.--Kotniski (talk) 09:17, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't worry Kotniski. I guess this is about nothing. Since I got a 12 hour ban for fulfilling your request, I have no business complaining. There can only be one guilty party in this case. Since the administrator didn't have time to investigate the case closer before banning me, then I guess I'm the only guilty one here. Oicumayberight (talk) 02:04, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see an issue of civility here. Avoid edit-warring and try a dispute resolution mechanism. It may so happen that mediation or an article RFC is all you need. :) If there is still a lot of edit-warring, then of course, go to an admin noticeboard. Ncmvocalist (talk) 13:25, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I came here a few days ago after being accused of lying by User:Headbomb (and the claim was repeated here also by User:Fnagaton). I was asked by gerardw to take the discussion back to the talk page, where I have now been accused of harassment by Fnagaton [18] and invited to sell leprosy by User:Greg_L [19]. What should I do now? Thunderbird2 (talk) 17:47, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think this is actionable, although I agree that they are being impolite. Probably they are frustrated and offended by the squelching noises coming from your horse. Dropping the stick might bring this to an end. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 18:34, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Watch out Scheffield, the Thunderbird will unleash WP:WQA/SheffieldSteel on you for your "personal attack"!Headbomb {^ταλκ_{κοντριβς} – WP Physics} 18:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thunderbird, I suggest you simply walk away from the whole dispute and begin working on improving other areas of Wikipedia. Walking away is the best option as trying to continue the debate is only going to increase tempers on both sides, and you apparently have no chance of gaining consensus for your position. That said, I have no opinion about the actual proposal, and this is not the place to discuss it anyway. The fact remains that the only thing you can do now is to disengage. If you continue trying to argue about it I don't see any other possible outcome than you eventually being blocked for disruption, as your continued arguments are not changing anyone's mind. Don't take this as an attack on you or your position, this is simply how I see this playing out if you don't simply walk away from the debate. Is it really that important after all? The Seeker 4 Talk 18:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• T-bird is using Wikilawyering and misrepresentation to portray himself as a grieving victim of incivility. He, as well as anyone else, knows I was not seriously suggesting that he go into the business of selling a contagious bacterium to rogue nations. I was employing a facetious metaphor to tell him that no one is interested in his proposals, which, by the way, amount to nothing more or less than WP:tendentious and endless haranguing on an issue that was settled long ago. Now…

  T-bird: You are without a doubt a WP:Single-purpose account (your contributions and your user page) dedicated to a lost cause and are purely WP:disruptive to Wikipedia. If you persist at this, I can certainly abandon employing glib, dismissive humor in my dealings with you, and will be more than pleased to deal with your disruption in the manner befitting here. Greg L (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Thunderbird2 is again using misrepresentation against other editors and forum shopping, both actions are in violation of the RfC/U findings about Thunderbird2's behaviour. To Thunderbird2, when are you going to remove the uncivil harassment and misrepresentation content on your talk pages which is documented in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2? To others, how long are constructive editors like Greg, Headbomb and myself going to have to be subjected to the continued misrepresentation, harassment and disruptive forum shopping behaviour of Thunderbird2? Fnagaton 03:32, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Thunderbird2, listen to User:Theseeker4 because "you apparently have no chance of gaining consensus for your position" and you should "walk away" because "if you continue trying to argue about it I [The Seeker4] don't see any other possible outcome than you [Thunderbird2] eventually being blocked for disruption.". Please, Thunderbird2, listen to other editors when they tell you to stop. Fnagaton 03:41, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regardless of alleged provocation, these posts [20][21] by Greg_L contain abusive taunts. They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor" Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:42, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• They cite diseases in an attempt to make "facetious metaphor". Oh dear! And if Wikipedia talk pages were frequented by 2nd-graders, mentioning leprosy might not be appropriate. Too many editors try to hide behind the apron strings of “civility” and come whining to WQA or start an RfC as an insincere battle tactic when they are loosing and their ideas or behavior have been criticized or mocked. The result? Some editors here trip all over themselves in an effort to write posts that are inoffensive when admins are doing “Monday morning quarterbacking.” Your criticism, Cuddlyable3, is absurd and insincere.

  I’m thinking that you are still smarting over my adding this animation to the Mandelbrot set article and you deleted it. Splendid *contribution* there; I spent hours with three separate programs to make it and keep it ultra-compact for fast load times ,and your *contribution* is to hit the “undo” link. So, we editwarred over that, and you came here to WQA to whine about a post of mine, and got soundly rejected and the blame placed on you for creating the conflict in the first place. That seems to be what you do: create editing conflict with others while simultaneously hiding behind a veneer of wikiword civility. Looking at your contributions, you seem to make frequent use of WQA’s as an editwarring tactic as you were here only eight days ago. Perhaps you’ve honed this tactic and find it a useful. However, it reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting at Coalition forces (oops, I did it again: I used a “war” metaphor).

  Finally, all this was back in November; get over it. I note your block log, where one admin wrote Continued Disruptive editing despite warnings and opposing consensus from editors and/or administrators. So, just pardon me all over the place for not endeavoring to be more like you in my editing behavior and interactions with others; it doesn’t impress. Greg L (talk) 18:08, 7 February 2009 (UTC)Re. strikeout on 14 February 2009, see below[reply]

Greg L, your sarcasm and unique metaphors/similes towards others are truly provocative. Agreeably, they are rhetorical and not meant to be taken at all literally. However, how you say things is causing the problems here. Are you admitting above that you may have "criticized or mocked" someones "ideas or behavior"?? If yes, welcome to the land of WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 20:34, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh dear! Sarcasm too has been outlawed on Wikipedia? Bwilkins, it honestly seems to me that you have confused en.Wikipdia with Red China. Our talk pages are marketplaces for the exchange of ideas. Wikipedians pitch ideas on talk pages and debate them and see if there are any takers in an effort to arrive at a community consensus on editorial content and MOS and MOSNUM guidelines. I demand that you point out where it is against Wikipedia policy on civility to “criticize” bad ideas or other editors’ bad behavior. Patently absurd. And you hope to be an administrator one day?? I suggest you go and actually read policies you linked to above. But…

  On second though, you just might be right about this. Perhaps Wikipedia is a venue where even really, really bad behavior should not be criticized because everything is relative—even *truth*. So, although I don’t exactly completely wholeheartedly agree with your belief system wherein it is improper to criticize others’ tendentious and disruptive behavior here on Wikipedia (doing so might make them feel poopy about themselves), I give you an A+ for effort! Thanks. I’ll try to do much better next time.

  And, to (finally) answer your question directly, yes; I freely admit that I have criticized Thunderbird’s behavior here. (*sound of audience gasp*) Greg L (talk) 22:46, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sarcasm is against community standards when used to attack others. Wikipedia is not a public US forum with free speech rights (it is privately owned by Wikipedia Foundation). It is possible to discuss content and other editors behavior while remaining civil. Gerardw (talk) 23:31, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Sarcasm is against community standards when used to attack others. I absolutely agree with that statement. No one should be subject to “personal attacks”. And what does that policy actually say since there seem to be a few editors here who are oh-so anxious to link to stuff in an “if I made it blue, it must be true” fashion?? The following paints a clear picture of the nature of conduct that is considered to be a “personal attack” on Wikipedia:

There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
• Racial, sexual, homophobic, ageist, religious, political, ethnic, or other epithets (such as against people with disabilities) directed against another contributor. Disagreement over what constitutes a religion, race, sexual preference, or ethnicity is not a legitimate excuse.
• Using someone's affiliations as a means of dismissing or discrediting their views—regardless of whether said affiliations are mainstream.

So with regard to my post being “used to attack others”, there is no evidence that I did this because non exists. Any reasonable interpretation of what I wrote that passes anyone’s *grin test* here reveals that I was not “attacking” Thunderbird with the equivalent of “you are a one-eyed, baby-killing palestinian homosexual” or some such nonsense; everyone deserves the right to participate here on Wikipedia and not be subjected to such treatment. I didn’t even suggest T‑bird has bad breath. My message clearly was (and is) quite simple: “no one is in the least interested in your proposal.” That much is plainly obvious and I utterly reject disingenuous or misinformed attempts to paint it as anything other than that. Notwithstanding T‑bird’s protestations, he didn’t really think for a nanosecond that I was seriously suggesting that he go into the business of selling a contagious bacterium to rogue nations (which would be a career suggestion, not a personal attack, if interpreted literally).

If someone here wants to make it against Wikipedia policy to employ facetious and glib metaphors to tell another editor that no one likes his or her idea, first go revise WP:No personal attacks. I conform my behavior to the community consensus on what constitutes a personal attack; not your interpretation of it. Now…

T-bird’s professing being “attacked” is pure wikilawyering to circumvent the inconvenient truth that he is being tendentious and disruptive and wants to persist at it. Anyone who has had the misfortune of having had to deal with T-bird understands this. User:Theseeker4 hasn’t had to deal with T-bird and still managed to write an extremely insightful post that hit the nail right on the head.

Now, no one is really that thin-skinned here; they just pretend to be in order to create wikidrama or to impress others with how they can write absurdly politically correct ramblings in hopes that it somehow qualifies them to be an admin. It doesn’t. Either that, or they are spouting off here without fully understanding the basic facts. Either way, I’m quite done here. Goodbye.

P.S. I don’t care if you drink beer, Gerardw; I doubt anyone does, but I will defend your right to proudly proclaim that fact on the privately owned Wikipedia Foundation. Greg L (talk) 01:54, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see what the problem is with Greg's comments. They are clearly meant to draw attention towards Thunderbird2's weak unsubstantiated point of view and not personally directed at Thunderbird2 himself, therefore they cannot be a personal attack. It would be a sad day for Wikipedia when it is against policy to use a sarcastic metaphor when drawing attention to a fallacious statement. Wikipedia is not there yet and I hope it never will be. It is disengenuous when someone screams "personal attack" each time their weak unsubstantiated point of view is highlighted by sacrasm. It is also against guidelines for that person to beat the same dead horse and continuously forum shop their weak unsubstantiated point of view all over the place. For example when someone uses a forum like WQA citing "incivility" when actually there isn't any invility and wastes everyones valuable time and effort. Fnagaton 02:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two more of Fnagaton's unfounded accusations of lying: [22] [23]. It seems he is unable or unwilling to follow WP:AGF. Thunderbird2 (talk) 11:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above post is another example of the user misrepresenting the situation because the diffs cited do not support the claims made by the user. In actual fact the diffs cited above are further evidence to demonstrate how the user is continuing to forum shop the same issue in multiple forums and continuing to misrepresent the situation, this bad behaviour is documented in the RfC/U Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Thunderbird2. WP:AGF does not mean an editor has to assume good faith when there is obvious and repeated overwhelming evidence of bad faith actions, this situation applies to Thunderbird2's repeated violations of guidelines and policies which are also documented in the RfC/U. The only remaining question is when is Thunderbird2 going to comply with the findings of the RfC/U? Fnagaton 02:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And my question is when can this be closed and archived?--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not likely for a long time. Sarcasm used to undermine someone's input (and even to discourage it) is uncivil. All the rhetoric in trying to defend such actions are really allowing them to dig a big deep hole . I keep waiting for one big action that might help them fill it in and actually join the Wikipedia Community. Until then, I see a light at the bottom of that hole ... is that ... China? Nobody is blameless here, so a couple of people need to start accepting their role, and changing their ways (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:35, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Changing their ways would be Thunderbird2 agreeing to comply with the findings of the RfC/U and modifying his beahviour and removing the harassment content. Then people can move forward.Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bwilkins I generally approve of your role on this noticeboard. To date you have not struck me as someone who accepts naively any claim of incivility. Please consider whether the complainant is not frivolously and vexatiously being disruptive by claiming to be personally injured by what is, in reality, nothing more than gruff straight talk.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 15:55, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

GMW ... I appreciate the comment. I agree the complainant is pushing the envelope, however, as acknowledged, one of the "offenders" has, indeed, acted sarcastically towards them in order to dissuade additional input or put them down. Admission, and contrition are two separate things. I sincerely believe that once the sarcasm stops, everyone can move on...that's all I'm looking for from my POV. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Acted sarcasticly towards the point of view, not the person.There is a world of difference. I think you need to read the RfC/U against Thunderbird2 with all the evidence and then you might see that Greg's comment about the single purpose position Thunderbird2 keeps on beating (for months and months, constantly) is actually really quite reserved. Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you were to draw up a list of "speech acts" you don't want to see on Wikipedia, with 1 being negligible and 10 being the worst, where would you put death threats?¹ Where do you put racial slurs? Where do you put garden-variety insults ("moron", "asshole")? What level is the cut-off for when a user incurs sanctions? What's at level 1, and what's at level 10? Where does sarcasm rate on the scale? And where is sarcasm specifically prohibited by WP policies?

¹ user:EVula does get some creative ones, though, so even death threats can have redeeming features.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 12:55, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thunderbird2 is "frivolously and vexatiously being disruptive by claiming to be personally injured by what is, in reality, nothing more than gruff straight talk." - I completely agree with that quote. So what can be done about Thunderbird2? Fnagaton 13:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once you accept responsibility for your role, and then cut it out, then I expect Thunderbird will stop being "vexatious". If he doesn't, then I expect to see an RFC/U that involves both of you together. It's the easy and adult way, isn't it. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 13:43, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"your role"? I accept all I did was: 1) Provide a stronger argument than Thunderbird2. 2) Refuse to accept Thunderbird2's lack of answers to direct questions. 3) Refuse to accept Thunderbird2's violation of guidelines and policies followed by Thunderbird2's harassment and misrepresentation when it involves other editors and myself. 4) Provided part of the evidence in the RfC/U which several other editors, involved and uninvolved, certified. Basically, I'm not going to say I'm sorry for being part of the group that helped change the guideline text for the better by developing consensus with other editors while Thunderbird2 repeatedly became disruptive to the process of consensus building. Are you trying to insinuate I'm somehow not being adult with your last remark? The fact is there is an RfC/U standing against Thunderbird2 and he needs to accept his role and modify his behaviour first of all. Fnagaton 13:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're correct, Thunderbird has had an RFC/U to do with handling of arguments and consensus. Your role was to include admitted sarcastic comments to demean and dissuade further editing by Thunderbird. You fail to see that those comments were an issue, and attempt to both laugh them off, and you also attempt to justify them. If you fail to see that this is the what appears to be the final issue in the resolution of this WQA, then I'm not sure how much clearer this can be made. The two are separate - whether you believe someone to be an SPA or a "pain in the ass", does not give you the permission to act untowards in their direction. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:18, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That was not my role at all and I don't think your summary is even slightly accurate because you are trying to call into question my motives by incorrectly asserting what you think I meant. Since you do not know my mind then you are incorrect to keep on trying to claim you know my mind better, especially when I have already stated the accurate interpretation. i.e. Any comments posted are there to draw attention to a fallacious point of view, not to demean or attack anyone personally. Also your summary misrepresents the situation because nowhere did I "admit" that any comments were "demean and dissuade", if you have any link supporting that claim then please post it, otherwise retract your unsupported assertion. Indeed I see Greg's comments as meaning to try to get Thunderbird2 to stop beating the same dead horse and to stop Thunderbird2 from violating guidelines and policies. I do agree with Goodmorningworld that the comments are gruff straight talk. I note you have not answered the question put directly to you about your "adult" related comment. Why is that? Please answer the question made above. However, applying your own (incorrect) strict interpretation regarding sarcasm back onto your own words (to demonstrate how fallacious your point is): I take your lack of answer to mean that your comment is intended to insinuate something against me personally by making a sarcastic comment intended to demean me and inhibit further editing. This means, of course following your own strict interpretation, you don't appear to follow the same "high standards" you expect for others. Now then, I see two future actions for you. 1) You answer the question and correct what you really meant such that you state that what you meant to write was not in any way a personally targetted comment, with a retraction of the original comment. I would then accept that correction, of course since to continue to call into question someone's motives in that situation is counter-productive and churlish. The conclusion from that is therefore that questioning the motives of someone after you've been corrected with respect to those motives is wrong. Which of course means you retract your incorrect assumptions about what you think "my role" is above where you call into question my motives. 2) You then drop this meta-debate here about sarcasm (it isn't the correct forum) and move it to the relevant policy talk page instead. Then if you really want to apply very strict no-sarcasm to the relevant policies then you'll have to persuade others that your argument has merit, which currently your argument does not. Fnagaton 14:58, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I thought your "adult" question was rhetorical due to the obvious nature of the meaning. The comment as intended was "as we are all adults" - an inclusive word meant to show collegiality and brotherhoodliness. No attacks, no incivility, merely stating what I thought to be obvious. You may be a 15 year old girl, I don't know; however in that case I was wrong to assume, but it would not make any of us less equal than others on Wikipedia. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I accept your apology and take it to mean that you have now retracted your unsupported claims made above. Fnagaton 23:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I invite anyone with the time and patience to read this discussion and this one and ask themselves whether either can form the basis of a legitimate consensus. While you are reading, please also consider whether there is any evidence there (or anywhere else) for the alleged provocation of which I am accused. Thunderbird2 (talk) 19:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thunderbird2 this is not the place to forum shop the same issue that you have been forum shopping for the past months. In the RfC/U there is the evidence and it was concluded that you have forum shopped the same issue and that the link you have posted has already been refuted by much stronger arguments presented in the full archive (note not the cherry picked diffs you made above) of the discussions Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)/Archive/Complete rewrite of Units of Measurements (June 2008). You have already been told by multiple editors to stop forum shopping otherwise it will lead to your block. As can be seen in the full archive link I've just posted and in the RfC/U you need to correct your bad behaviour with respect to the harassment, misrepresentation and forum shopping. When are you going to comply with the RfC/U? Fnagaton 23:50, 12 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've had enough of this one. It's obvious by Fnagaton's "holier than thou" attitude that they will never admit to having been part of this issue. Thunderbird's recent addition to the WQA did nothing but harm his "case". Based on your actions, the two of you are not meant for a community. There's not much more I can do than to recommend RFC/U's against the both of you for your actions, as at this point they're not blockable. Good luck to you both. If someone else wants to take up the mantle with this one, please go ahead, but to me, neither of these two actually want to become good community editors of Wikipedia. I'm out. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 00:08, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I note that you have again made an unsubstantiated personal attack by trying to question my motives. The comment about "holier than thou" is nothing but a personally directed attack intended to demean me and therefore tries to inhibit me making further edits. However I don't run away from people who try to misrepresent me, instead I challenge their statements and in so doing expose the weak unsubstantiated points of view to the bright light of day. The "they will never admit to having been part of this issue" misrepresents the issue because obviously I have acknowledged my part to the extent that is detailed in my "13:52, 12 February 2009 (UTC)" comment above, obviously there is nothing for me to "admit" as you put it. It is now up to Thunderbird2 to now ackowledge the RfC/U and to comply with it. This is against the backdrop where in another comment [24] you wrote "Maybe I'm off base expecting people to treat others fairly", well I don't see much evidence of you treating me fairly with your attempts to misrepresent me and personally attack me. I on the other hand have treated Thunderbird2 fairly because I followed the guidelines and created the RfC/U giving everyone an equal oppertunity to comment. The conclusion of the RfC/U certified by several involved and uninvolved editors is that Thunderbird2 needs to correct his behaviour. I think you need to acknowledge your part in this and accept that your point of view about sarcasm (when it is used to expose a weak unsubstantiated point of view) is not supported by the current policies and guidelines. The fact that I agree with earlier comments made by Goodmorningworld (the one I quoted) and disagree with your point of view (regarding sarcasm) does not deserve an RfC/U and does not deserve the personal attacks from you directed to me. I think you've made some comments while angry and when you cool off you can consider retracting them. Fnagaton 00:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bwilkins is correct, the seemingly never ending saga is not adult. WP:CIVIL says no taunting, and Wikipedia says Sarcasm is intended to taunt. So there. But Wiki-Lawyering is not the point. And an inconclusive RFC/U isn't a magic talisman to excuse one's own substandard behavior. You're not getting any support from third party editors, so WQA is probably not going to be helpful to you. Gerardw (talk) 02:19, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bwilkins is not correct because using a personal attack is not a valid argument. Therefore your claim is also incorrect, firstly about the use of "sarcasm" for the above mentioned reasons and also because you are incorrect about "not getting any support from third party editors" since there are the comments: From Theseeker4 (about Thunderbird2 beating a dead horse), Goodmorningworld's comment about Thundebird2 being "frivolously and vexatiously being disruptive" and the comments actually being "nothing more than gruff straight talk", then of course there are the uninvolved editors who certified the RfC/U. Thus the RfC/U is not inconclusive and there is plenty of support here and in the RfC/U. Not to mention the current sub talk page where once again the consensus is demonstrated that Thunderbird2 should drop the stick. Fnagaton 03:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've warned User:Greg L about civility and left a warning for User:Thunderbird2 about tendentious editing and forum shopping. Gwen Gale (talk) 11:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Something tells me I didn't get through to him. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)\[reply]

A bit frustratin' ain't it? (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:59, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See User_talk:Gwen_Gale#Suggestions.3F_.28if_you_have_a_few_moments.29. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:25, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Libellous claim

Greg_L has chosen to make claims above about me though I am uninvolved in his dispute. I commend editors here who see that as irrelevant. Greg_L's claim that I deleted his animation is untrue. (In fact I edited[25] 4 words of text he wrote. That edit has not been contested, not even by Greg_L.) A libellous falsehood goes beyond incivility and is not tolerable. Greg_L is aware that WP:Civility states “[incivility includes] Lies, including deliberately asserting false information on a discussion page in order to mislead one or more editors.” I take the direct action of STRIKING (though not deleting) Greg_L's falsehood above. I do this on my own responsibility and refer to the record[[26]].

I see no reason to respond to Greg_L's inspection of a block log from 2007.

This latest dispute

Greg L continues to post at voluble length his taunts, gratuitous references to diseases, his pet phrases such as "excuse me all over the place", continual assumption that his opinions represent "we" not "I" and presumption that Wikipedia is the place for his efforts at "dismissive humor" and "facetious metaphor".[27]. Examples of Greg_L's abusive comments include: "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine about how other editors failed to leave an after-dinner mint on your pillow.." later exacerbated[28]with an ilustration as "it would also make it look like you were more of a grownup if you didn’t come here to whine." and "..reminds me of insurgents in Iraq who hide behind women and children in the streets while shooting..". This behaviour follows the WQA[29] (which follows a previous WQA [30]) that I raised about Greg_L's incivility, which one hoped had put an end to Greg_L's ad hominem name calling such as balled[sic] faced, Mayor of the M-set and censor. I do not see that warnings to Greg_L have achieved the necessary improvement in his behaviour. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 12:24, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – to AN or AN/I; filing party advised to avoid forum shopping.

I've discovered discussions by users User:Spotfixer, User:RolandR, and User:Eleland, on User:Eleland's talkpage: Link.

I know rules on userpages are more relaxed than article talks, but this kind of anti-Israeli grouping has become quite common with the mentioned people. I don't mind if users who share similar opinions talk with each other, bu comments such as Jewish and obsessively Zionist admin baited me until he ran out of his 3 reverts, This confoems to a pattern of systematic abuse of anti-Zionist Jews, and vandalism of related articles, and Everywhere in the world it seems the law fucks the poor, weak and marginalized and supports the already rich and powerful. One would have thought a people's encyclopedia would be different.. User:ChrisO, an admin often involved in similar disputes hasn't responded to my message. He previously wanted user User:Brewcrewer temporarily blocked for this I understand your frustration. Since ChrisO was so experienced with these kinds of violations, I assumed he would be very concerned about my message: Questions but unfortunately, he hasn't responded.

I'm just honestly tired of some group of users being allowed to group up and talk about the evil Zionists while others continue to be warned/blocked for doing the same. This is all per Wiki not a battlefield and Wikihounding, though I'm sure some of you could find other rules that apply to this situation. Eleland has already been blocked for incivility for a separate incident but he continues to act inappropriate in his talk page. And, other editors have followed him.

Anyways, I don't know the exact punishments and to be honest I don't care...I simply want people to know what's going on. Cheers! Wikifan12345 (talk) 04:21, 8 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's not a lot can be done for discussions on a user's own Talk pages where he is discussing among other editors that aren't objecting. Wikipedia is not censored and 3rd party incivility complaints usually result in being told to "avert your eyes". Most of the rant is devoted to kicking off at his 2 week block. My advice is to keep away from discussions on his Talk page that you're not involved in. --HighKing (talk) 13:47, 9 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – Filing party advised that warnings were a little bitey

Resolved

 – Escalated to Wikipedia:ANI#User:Tom_Lennox; blocked.

Resolved

 – Blocked; see also Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Incivility:_ThuranX. Ncmvocalist (talk) 05:12, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Amanda and I have been making progress on the layout of images on the Leonardo da Vinci article and posting on each other's talk pages, unfortunately this suddenly escalated when Amanda came to my talk page and posted: "PLEEEASE stop stuffing around...You have never worked as a layout artist, that is patently obvious!....I'm really busy and I get sick of having to revert layout edits that are a) not good solutions b) look bad c) diminish important pictures d)cause gaps in text when viewed on a wide screen." Amanda did also say that "I know you are meaning to be helpful. But too strenuous application of a set of rules can make things worse not better. You have editorial skills in other areas! Please use them!" I responded here [36] Although well-intentioned, the editor has preferences regarding having large images in articles, regardless of accessibility. I have brought this here because, in spite of the warm words at the end of her post, the earlier attacks were sufficiently unjustified. Tom B (talk) 15:21, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Amanda is a straight-talking Australian, don't take offence: keep talking. The essence of this is image size, and that's just a matter of preferences, not worth fighting over. The guideline is only that, though it is a criterion at FAC, when it becomes enforceable. My suggestion is: put image sizes aside for the time being, because winning such a small argument is no big deal in itself; you both have a lot to offer on a subject you share an interest in, so continue to work cooperatively on other aspects of the article, and the issue will probably resolve itself in time. In my experience, images sizes are often changed from thumbs to pixels to thumbs and back again by a series of editors and are impossible to nail down permanently. qp10qp (talk) 16:24, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

cheers qp, on image sizes there are some constraints outlined by wp:mos regardless of individual preferences and screen sizes...as you say, it is an FAC criterion. i'm sure A has a lot more to offer on the subject of the article in question, for me it's not about winning arguments but collaboration to develop a better encyclopedia. the most straight forward way i've found to stabilise image sizes is to remove all pixels and then to adequately justify any forcing. Tom B (talk) 01:00, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from WP:AN/I. --MZMcBride (talk) 18:53, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I came across E dog95 (talk · contribs · logs · block log) at the end of January when I observed the editor issuing 4im warnings [37], [38], [39] as a first warning for typically petty vandalism [40] [41], [42] and left a polite note about it. The editor pretty much rejected my advice stating he/she disagreed with WP:BITE and warns "losers". Ensuing coaching on civility was also rejected. Looking further, I realized a general problem with bad reversions: of cited edits because of non-english sources and edits labeled as vandalism that shouldn't be [43]. However, the editor thinks I'm the one with the issues so I backed off. However, since then, the editor has been blocked for 3RR, continues overzealous reversions/mislabeling vandalism: [44] and BITEing [45], [46].

I think this user is a prolific vandal fighter, and wants to contribute constructively, but doesn't want to accept (at least my) feeback about not understanding our policies/culture. I think having other folks weigh in and some focused coaching would be very helpful here. I thought about recommending removal of TW, but if we can get this editor using it correctly, it would be better. Thoughts? Toddst1 (talk) 18:41, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Let me introduce you to the "Preview" button ;-P (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 18:48, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This one looks like Wikiquette more than ANI material. Thoughts? Edit Centric (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why this was brought here; Toddst's message was no different to what we would've posted had we come across the same issues. If an editor doesn't understand the policies/norms, or doesn't accept that his interpretation is way off, then what can we do? There's only so much education that can be given for an editor who's been here since 2007.

Biting newbies by using 4im warnings as first warnings is not acceptable because it can deter good contributors from this project, who are just unfamiliar with wiki-conventions. Referring to other editors as losers and new editors are useless, is not just uncivil, but an assumption of bad faith too. Assuming good faith and being civil are not optional; you're expected to do so at all times. Why? Because the purpose of this project is not just to build a high quality free encyclopedia, but to do so in an atmosphere of camaraderie and mutual respect among contributors. Failing to assume good faith, engaging in uncivil discourse, biting newbies, and so on, all go against this purpose. Ncmvocalist (talk) 19:34, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be a problem here for sure - reverting this edit [47] which appears to be a simple layout change with this edit [48] with the edit summary "m (Reverted 1 edit by 128.243.253.113 identified as vandalism to last revision by E dog95. using TW)" is a serious no-no. Exxolon (talk) 22:00, 10 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The talk page of that IP address, shows it has committed many vandals, several different editors giving warnings. Was that taken into consideration? When you find someone vandalizing something, don't you check their history to see what else they have done? Dream Focus (talk) 00:56, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An IP's history has nothing to do with reverting individual edits - especially when we know it's shared, like that one. Toddst1 (talk) 01:34, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:99.243.228.15 This person just kept vandalizing. If it was an honest mistake, something minor, then you should politely talk to them. If they did something specifically for vandalism, no sense saying "do it a few more times if you want, we never block anyone until the 4th offense, and even then the ban won't last but for a day or so, then you can start vandalizing again." The user you claim he was too harsh with, went on to keep on vandalizing, even after being blocked once. Dream Focus (talk) 00:19, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question: You lost me. What does that have to do with this discussion? Toddst1 (talk) 00:28, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The complaint was he was too harsh on some first time offenders. One of those listed as an example, was later blocked for other things. So just giving him a few warnings, wouldn't have stopped him. I would also like to point out, that I found here he has in fact given polite warnings to people before. This editor doesn't seem to just give out harsh warnings to first time people unless he believes it is justified. Is there anyone he gave out a last chance warning to first, which was not later banned for disruptive behavior? Dream Focus (talk) 00:44, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Clarification: I don't believe I mentioned that editor above. It's not a consistent problem occurring in every instance, rather it's a recurring one with issues of WP:CIVIL and WP:BITE. I also pointed out that the editor is a prolific vandal fighter. Toddst1 (talk) 01:31, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Level 4 warnings are never given straight off. It's not a question of them being justified. It's not the way wikipedia works. Level 1 warning are used first because they contain instructions and guides on etiquette which we are required to assume will help an editor become productive. Assuming that an editor is 'doomed to fail' (demostrated here) violates civility policy. There are some issues of not assuming good faith and misuse of scripts here that the editor needs to acknowledge and correct. --neon white talk 01:26, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the editor in question is directly violating policy. However, I would be careful about saying that level 4 warnings are never justified as an only warning. Certain cases such as very serious BLP violations, serious threats and personal attacks, etc. may justify a level 4im warning. Likewise, an established editor who makes a personal attack, blanks a page does not need the instructional warning, so would be due a level 4 right off. That said, neither of those situations apply to the editor of this WQA so in this case the level 4 warnings are NOT justified, regardless of whether editors warned in this manner repeated their vandalism. The Seeker 4 Talk 01:36, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's all personal opinion but i personally believe a level 2 or 3 is more appropriate for those situations. I think this editor could be reminded that vandalism only accounts (we're talking about obvious blatent disruption here) are often blocked without any warning so they aren't entirely necessary. --neon white talk 18:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It should be noted that the user specifically told me that he has no intention of giving anything but [last warnings]198.161.173.180 (talk) 15:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) It looks like E dog95 hasn't editing in a few days, hopefully taking a break to recharge the batteries and his sanity :). Seriously, the edit about not giving multiple warnings and that attitude is troubling. I am no saint and I am happy to call folks bad faith editors or trolls after dealing with them repeatidly, but we do have to remember that there are true noobies around here and lots of good faith IP editors, ect.(i actualy would prefer to edit as an IP but dont) and that gently 1st warnings can't hurt. I am truely amazed when I vistit a talk page and it has like 30 warnings on it, come on! The level of frustration at having to deal with "stupid" people and vandals I am sure gets to all of us at times, but that is what wiki breaks and others imput is needed for. Anyways, just my venting. Cheers, --Tom 16:27, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was bold, and used a Single Issue WARNING about improper use of templates, with an extensive discussion of why. Driving off newbies is disruptive overall, as is a failure to WP:AGF on each individual occasion. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 16:59, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Another major point that didnt occur to me originally is that these could well be shared ips at least one of the above seem to be a school. The editor has never posted a shared ip template on a talk page so the potential for an completely innocent user to get a level4 warning is there and could easily be misunderstood to be in reference to good edits they have performed. --neon white talk 18:25, 11 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – Blocked

In White Brazilian Talk Page: [49] [50] Is it possible for someone to talk to this user about this behaviour? Donadio (talk) 01:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is it that you object to? Toddst1 (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is one of those "here we go again's". At this point, we need to dig through the last Wikiquette discussion, and possibly revisit some of those items. Toddst1, lemme grab the links and I'll be right back here... Edit Centric (talk) 02:17, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay. Evidently, there's still issues happening since the last interaction for edit warring. The applicable discussions already engaged in;

• 8 Feb from WP:AN3
• 1 Feb from WP:ANI
• 8 Feb from Wikipedia talk:Disruptive editing
• Donadio Has been blocked twice already this year for edit warring and article disruption.
• Opinoso Last blocked Sep 2008 for edit warring at Italian Brazilian.

At this point, the edit war and edit incompatibility between these two editors might be best taken to RFC. Edit Centric (talk) 02:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Updated links to show history. Before an RFC process, perhaps these editors would consider formal mediation? Edit Centric (talk) 05:03, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I object to him removing Fact Tags where the links are broken, and then, when called on it, making completely unrelated comments, including misconstruing my positions, that constitute ad hominems.

I am open to formal mediation. Donadio (talk) 11:16, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, his aggressions and attempts to put words in my mouth seem to have escalated:

[51]

[52]

[53] Donadio (talk) 18:57, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved

 – Blocked

by user:NawlinWiki indef

Hello,

User:Wiki libs keeps on deleting sourced material without trying to discuss with me or find compromises. Also he uses offensive comments and tries to belittle me because of my language skills. English is not my mother tongue, so I may make mistakes. But still I think my english is comprehensible. Besides, if my english is wrong anyone is free to fix it. I don't see why this sourced passage should be deleted just for that.

But for some reasons this user keeps on belittling me because of my language. I tried to discuss and find a compromise, arguing that anyone can fix my english if it's so wrong. But he just seems to ignore and keeps on deleting and making condescending comments to bellitle the relevance of my edits:

[54] [55]

I don't want to engage myself into a dispute or an edit war, so please, can anyone help or tell me what to do? Frankely speaking I consider the disputed passage is relevant for the article plus it is sourced with reliable scolar and referential published sources, so I don't see why it should deleted without any serious explanation.Fred D.Hunter (talk) 18:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For future reference, remember to notify a user you file complaint against on their talk page. I have already left them a note that this complaint exists. Thank you. The Seeker 4 Talk 18:50, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, sorry Fred D.Hunter (talk) 19:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In his original edit summary, the editor never claimed to write the poorly written content... he stated that he was replacing it after it had already been removed. So the comment about the poor quality of the text... or the fact that it was off topic and useless within the article in question.... was not directed at him. It was a general comment directed at the non-quality/off-topic aspect of the text... text which was likely added by several inexperienced users over a stretch of time where it started out bad... was never improved on... and ended up being a very un-required trivia tidbit within the song article. If the user felt that that my comment on the poorly written content was directed at him then I am sorry he made that mistake. His edit summary should have indicated that he wrote the text rather than just say he was re-adding it after it was justifiably deleted a long time ago for several reasons. As I have suggested in my own edit summary. A separate article about this so-called triad should be created. And if it were, then I would gladly help to improve it there. But it has no place in the article about the song so it was not worth working on there. The best overall edit was to simply restore the article to its earlier state. The Real Libs-speak politely 19:33, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

• Ignoring the conflict here, as that should be discussed on the talk page and use other DR if needed. Calling something 'poorly written' is not incivil it's one editors opinion and fair comment. Commenting on edits is fine under the general 'Comment on content, not on the contributor' rule. I see no real civility problems here and urge all involved parties to discuss and refrain from edit warring/reverts until the matter is resolved. --neon white talk 20:20, 13 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This user has been using uncivil language on Talk:Pink Floyd#Sales (a section which he initiated) while discussing what may be a legitimate complaint about another issue being discussed on Talk:Led Zeppelin. He has been warned by other editors including myself, and clearly regards these warnings as hostile, and feels the need to counter-attack; see especially his latest post [56] which I reverted. I would also like to apologize for my edit summary on my revert of this; in a previous post I warned the user his posts look like trolling (but not actually saying this is his intention), and on the edit summary I mentioned "trolling" as a reason for the revert, and may have been out of line making that accusation (which, of course, I can't undo). --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 11:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I second the above statement, including the excuse.--Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 12:14, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide some more diffs. What warning were given and what were they for? I cannot see any recent warnings given on the talk page. --neon white talk 14:19, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If there were several recent warnings, well, there's WP:AIV for such cases. This is a site to resolve cases and not to just block, right?--Avant-garde a clue-hexaChord² 14:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's a good idea to discuss matters with the problem editor on his/her talk page as a first step in resolving an issue. From what i can see this editor misunderstands how wikipedia works, the problem is he/she isnt a new editor, in fact one who's many edits dating back to march 2007 should demonstrate a far better underestanding than the one demonstrated on this talk page. --neon white talk 14:40, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

WP:AIV is not for incivility, it's for vandalism - and only where it's been warned properly. WP:ANI is for horrific cases of incivility, again where they have been properly warned. The last warnings on this specific user's page are more than 6 months old. Step 1 in dispute resolution is to discuss with the other party first. Step 2 is to visit us at WP:WQA for some informal assistance/some neutral pairs of eyes. Step 3 may be WP:ANI or it may not be. (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 14:44, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In response to both of the posts above, do you think there is any hope in trying to discuss this further with the user? His posts have a trolling style, and all advice being given to him has been ignored. I already consider myself done talking to him, unless he tries to edit articles with insincerity again (changing an article in a way he knows is wrong, because he couldn't get the right edit in sync with a different article). --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:55, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I did not mean "warning" as a precursor to admin action, which would belong on his talk page, but advice given within the discussion, warning he was exceeding the civility rules. He was told his accusations that others posting to him are admins, or people trying to assert authority unfairly, are out of line [57] [58] [59] [60] and previously warned that his posts resemble trolling [61]. He has been uncivil in most of his posts to this section, mocking previous replies; surely that is evident? My reason for posting this alert is that it has reached the stage where a post needed to be reverted, which should only be done in extreme cases. If it's extreme enough for that action, it's also extreme enough for an alert. This is not a request for a block, it is a request for a warning to be posted on his talk page by an admin, an action which for which I do not have authority, but which should accompany a revert of this type. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 14:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Ok, most of the diff's you provided are your posts, and not the "offensive" ones. However, I have been able to see a few of the editors comments. So far, I fail to see any of them as violations of WP:CIVIL or WP:NPA. If he thinks you're an admin, then he simply doesn't understand how Wikipedia works. I see valid discussions of sources and article inclusions, and cannot see any points of incivility. Maybe I'm blind, or maybe I'm too neutral to see what may be perceived nuances? (talk→ Bwilkins / BMW ←track) 15:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I posted diffs from myself and another editor because I was asked what I was referring to by "warnings" given to the editor. The only really problematic post that I'm asking for help on, was the one I reverted: [62]. In case I'm not being clear: as I understand it, a revert like this should be accompanied by a user talk page message similar to: "Your edits have been reverted for (reason)... if you continue, you may be blocked", which I should not be posting because I don't have the ability to block. But I think I do have the right to revert an attack against me, and this revert should be accompanied by a talk page warning from somebody. That's what I'm requesting at this time. --A Knight Who Says Ni (talk) 16:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. I tend to agree with Bwilkins here, I don't see anything that would quantify the incivility assumption. "please keep your shallow amateur analysis to yourself" hardly qualifies as incivility. I've read through all of this, and come to the healthy conclusion that no action is warranted. Knight, I understand that you've been with Wikipedia not but a year. Something I've learned over the past three years here is that you have to have a "thicker skin" on some things. Now, if the user had typed something like "Your edits are s^&%, go pound sand!", then I'd say you definitely had something there. In this case, nah. Revan's only error here was mistakenly identifying non-admins as admins, which is moot point at best. Edit Centric (talk) 18:58, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, consider him advised. (Bwilkins, check me on this, apropos? Edit Centric (talk) 20:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If its appropriate to request this and you have time, would you please check out comments made at Talk:Python_reticulatus#Debate_regarding_length_claims_made_by_various_zoos and Talk:Python_reticulatus#Verifiability. It is my position that I've endured days of personal attacks and incivility from User:Mokele and User:Jwinius.

• User:Mokele has told me "Cry me a river. I see absolutely no reason to listen to a mere amateur. Come back when you have a graduate degree in herpetology. Until then, stop wasting our time" and represents his editorial standpoints as "I don't give a crap if the news articles meet some overly-vague WP rule...we should stick to peer-reviewed scientific journal sources ONLY" and has referred to my good faith edits as "unencyclopedic crap" (all comments at [63]). Please also note this edit summary by User:Mokele "Put up or shut up, amateur. Show me this mythical "outside arbitration", because you seem to lack the balls to use the talk page anymore."
• User:Jwinius has informed me that I am "silly", [64], "petulant" , "irritable", "thin-skinned", etc. [65] etc. Each time I have specifically reminded this user about WP:Civility.

I've lost count of how many times I've encouraged courtesy in these users. Ultimately, this dispute is about a claim made by User:Mokele and User:Jwinius to disallow certain content at Python_reticulatus#Captivity that they deem unencyclopedic. Thanks for considering my comments. -- --Boston (talk) 20:51, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now this is something. Let me read through this stuff. (could you please provide the specific diffs, so we don't have to rifle through the whole talk page looking for the specific referenced examples? Saves a LOT of time with things like this! :-D ) Also, did you notice both editors on their respective talk pages that you had posted a Wikiquette about this? Edit Centric (talk) 21:01, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I've hit a "waitaminute" here, and it has the odiferous emanations of edit warring on the part of User:Boston. Boston, you've already violated the Three revert rule today. I would first advise you to stop the edit warring. It's definitely not apropos to engage in edit warring, then post a Wikiquette alert. If you're going to bring something substantive to WQA, make sure you're in the right before doing so... Edit Centric (talk) 21:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, Boston has not informed us, nor did he on prior instances when he tried to use the 3RR to force his changes into place. I'm only aware of this page because I suspected he'd try something behind our backs in order to avoid letting us express our views on the topic. Mokele (talk) 21:23, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I reverted the article twice today (Feb 14th) in my timezone (EST). The appearance of a third time is me correcting my edit summary. If I did in fact violate this rule, it wasn't my intention. If I violated the spirit of this rule in recent days (I don't think I did but...), I'll own responsibility for that. I'm happy to sit back and wait for Administrator involvement. I'm not interested in more conversation with these users until the profanity, incivility, and personal attacks stop. Comments from User:Mokele are particularly inappropriate:

• User:Mokele edit summary Put up or shut up, amateur. Show me this mythical "outside arbitration", because you seem to lack the balls to use the talk page anymore
• User:Mokele comments Cy me a river. I see absolutely no reason to listen to a mere amateur. Come back when you have a graduate degree in herpetology. Until then, stop wasting our time.
• User:Mokele comments And frankly, I don't give a crap if the news articles meet some overly-vague WP rule - by that rule...we should stick to peer-reviewed scientific journal sources ONLY.

Comments from User:Jwinius aren't relatively minor breaches of civility:

• User:Jwinius comments Boston, stop being so petulant. It was your choice to enter into this discussion, so either defend yourself or move aside.
• User:Jwinius comments If you believe otherwise think of a better argument, but don't go making silly accusations.
• User:Jwinius comments You are "petulant" as in "irritable:" to so quickly accuse someone else of being uncivil, simply for pointing out perceived flaws in your arguments, is thin-skinned to say the least.

Thanks for considering this situation. --Boston (talk) 21:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, how dare we get frustrated by a user who repeatedly inserts garbage into a page in spite of being given very good reason not to, fails to provide any worthwhile reasoning on why it should be included, refuses any attempt at compromise, and still drags this out. It's like dealing a creationist. Mokele (talk) 21:34, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]