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A request for arbitration is the last step of dispute resolution for conduct disputes on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee considers requests to open new cases and review previous decisions. The entire process is governed by the arbitration policy. For information about requesting arbitration, and how cases are accepted and dealt with, please see guide to arbitration.

To request enforcement of previous Arbitration decisions or discretionary sanctions, please do not open a new Arbitration case. Instead, please submit your request to /Requests/Enforcement.

This page transcludes from /Case, /Clarification and Amendment, /Motions, and /Enforcement.

Please make your request in the appropriate section:

Current requests

Virgin America Focus City Dispute

Initiated by 45Factoid44 (talk) at 02:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties


Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`
Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by 45Factoid44 (talk) 02:21, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

We have attempted to discuss for consensus without the page protected which failed, discuss with protection which failed, taken a survey which failed, requested informal mediation where we recieved no mediator but did get help from a third party project editor included in the parties involved who's idea was immediately rejected, and considered formal mediation but due to at least one random AOL IP could not file a request that would fit acceptance guidelines because the AOL user(s) could not possibly be located to agree to it. We also have one or more users who have stated that they will not give up unless their solution is accepted without compromise which basically means mediation where a thrid party can't decide for us and close the case is impossible. This dispute has been going on for at least three weeks. We REALLY need a solution from you if you can provide it. The dispute is over whether or not to LAX as a focus city for Virgin America.

Statement by Statement by Vegaswikian

While I received the notice, I don't consider myself an involved party. Based on a request at WP:AIRLINES I just stopped by to offer some suggestions that might have helped to lead to a resolution. I don't anticipate being involved in this discussion. 05:25, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Statement by Mayalld

This RFAr appears to be somewhat premature, as a WP:MEDCAB request is outstanding on this subject. Regrettably, it sat waiting for a mediator for rather a long time, but I have now opened the informal mediation on it. I would invite Arbcom to reject it at the present time, as other methods of dispute resolution have not been exhausted. Mayalld (talk) 10:53, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (0/5/0/0)

  • Reject, content dispute, premature, etc. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 04:39, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Decline. This dispute primarily concerns the content of the article, rather than user conduct issues that are suitable for arbitration. Speaking for myself, I have no way of knowing what the correct contents of the article that you are arguing over would be, short of my going and researching the article for myself. Therefore, arbitration is not the proper method to resolve this dispute. However, assistance from an experienced administrator to point these users in the right direction would be A Good Thing, and I'd appreciate if one of the arbitration clerks or another admin who reads here would lend a hand. Newyorkbrad (talk) 17:32, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject per jpgordon and Newyorkbrad. FloNight♥♥♥ 12:53, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject per Brad. --bainer (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reject as above; I note that a mediation request appears to be in hand. Sam Blacketer (talk) 22:44, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Abtract-Collectonian

Initiated by LessHeard vanU (talk) at 20:26, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Involved parties

  • LessHeard vanU (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA), filing party
  • Abtract (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • Collectonian (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • Sesshomaru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  • JHunterJ (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [Admin involved in current "Restrictions" review]
  • Natalya (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) [Admin involved in current "Restrictions" review]
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request`

I incorrectly copied over my timestamped sig to the first three parties, hence a discrepancy between the diff time and that on the message. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Confirmation that other steps in dispute resolution have been tried

Statement by LessHeard vanU

Apparently, according to the Abtract RfC, I became involved in this matter around 28th April 2008 when I offered to mediate a dispute between Abtract and Sesshomaru. This did not lead to any resolution, as the matter seemed to have abated. The RfC was created by Collectonian, which I certified as being involved in attempting resolution of disputes with regard to Abtract. On the 16th July 2008 I blocked Abtract indefinitely on the grounds of violation of WP:NPA, and 3 days later unblocked and then reblocked for 11 days (if memory serves for a sanction tariff of 14 days less time "served").

As indicated by the linked archive, I then became further involved in attempting to to resolve issues with the activities of Abtract - initially with Sesshomaru but more recently predominantly in regard to Collectonian. It is Collectonian's stated belief that Abtract stalks her contributions, and edits soon after her in a manner designed to promote unease. My view is that this is certainly a valid impression, and that Abtract should (and especially if the expressed view is in error) have made every effort not to edit in such a way as to give this impression of harassment. It does not appear, however, that this has happened but rather Abtract has persistently argued that his edits were techically permissable. Previously User:Ncmvocalist had attempted to agree a form of words between the three parties (Abtract on one "side", Collectonian and Sesshomaru on the other) to limit how each could edit the other parties areas of interest. Collectonian was then unprepared to agree to the form of words presented.

The problems between Abtract and Collectonian, and to a lesser extent Abtract and Sesshomaru, continued and were brought to my attention as a previously involved admin. I again approached Ncmvocalist to provide a further form of words to restrict the interaction between the parties in dispute, which he did so. I gained the support of two other admins (Natalya and JHunterJ) in imposing (since the last voluntary agreement was deprecated by one party refusing to comply) a set of restrictions on the parties, and to policing the said restrictions.

Since that time Collectonian has complained from time to time that Abtract had broken the spirit of the restrictions, and gamed the wording, in an effort to continue harassing her. I have briefly blocked Abtract for these "violations", and he in turn has questioned my impartiality and credibility in policing the restrictions. I have tried to agree the adoption of more precise wordings of the restriction, although I have been reluctant to do so since I hoped that compliance with the spirit of the wording (as exampled by Abtract and Sesshomaru agreeing not to report each other for minor transgressions, and have an understanding where each other might edit in future) would suffice, but have met with opposition from Abtract and non-agreement from the other admins.

Under the circumstances, all other avenues being exhausted, I request that the Committee accept to take this case to review the history of the parties, to ascertain whether Collectonian is correct (or might reasonably be correct in believing) in stating that Abtract has stalked her contributions in such a way as to harass her, whether Abtract has acted in good faith and in accordance to the principles of consensual collective editing over this period, and what measures might be applied to bring this matter to a conclusion.

nb. I would not be opposed to being made a named party to this matter, should Abtract or any of the other parties or members of the Committee so desire.

LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:15, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to jpgordon

Per Ncmvocalist below, I would further note that a voluntary process was created by Ncmvocalist and administered by JHunterJ and was subsequently terminated and the current imposed restriction is not having the desired effect, an attempt to improve or add to the restrictions wording is being resisted, and my interpretation of the restriction and the proposed additional wording is being challenged as biased. It is because of the impasse now present that I decided to request Arbitration. I should note that all of the parties (including those dissatisfied with the current position) who have so far responded are supporting Arbitration, from which I would suggest that it is felt that we have gone as far as we are able in resolving this among ourselves and the community. LessHeard vanU (talk) 12:48, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request to Committee members

Is is possible to confirm that the imposed restrictions are still in place, outside of the ArbCom pages, both during the Request and the various procedures should the case be accepted? While I would not be inclined to "severely" sanction while these matters are being discussed, I would not wish the situation be allowed to deteriorate because the restrictions are in abeyance. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Response to Flonight; Thanks, I shall do that if the case is accepted. LessHeard vanU (talk) 20:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Abtract

I became aware of Collectonian's ability to see the worst in people and her inability to apologise when wrong, during the bitch episode which I have copied in full below to make life easier for you. I particularly would like you to note that she tells me she has been watching my edits, she never once admits she was wrong or made any conciliatory nods towards mollifying me (nor has she since), and that the editor concerned in my original bitch edits himself thinks I was "stitched up" in his words. Since then I have returned the favour and watched her edits (I presumed that this was ok as she told me she watched mine) just in case she offended someone else as she did me, when I would offer what help I could. I have found her to be a fairly normal editor but with a trigger finger when it comes to warning people, and showing some ownership tendencies (don't we all sometimes). Just occasionally I feel the need to welcome a newbie that she has warned. I have not knowingly broken the restrictions imposed by Less although that's quite difficult to tell as they are vaguely worded and seem to be subject to retrospective change. So far as Sess is concerned, we have had some fun together and probably will again as we are at the opposite ends of the spectrum of editors, but we are getting along ok now and so far as I am concerned he shouldn't really be a party to this. I think that's all I have to say right now. Abtract (talk) 23:04, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Collectonian

Abtract has stalked both myself and Sesshomaru off and on since May of this year, with me seeing to be his primary focus over the last few months. An RfC/U was filed in May which had no results. He was blocked four times for this behavior as a result of multiple AN/I's filed in June and July. Unfortunately, when he was finally another blocked indefinitely in July, he was given yet another chance and his block reduced to two weeks, then removed all together by a third admin. As already noted above, a non-admin attempted to create an agreement, and intimated that if i did not agree to it no one would care if Abtract continued his harassment. However I did not feel the agreement went far enough to keep Abtract from getting around it, as he would always jump through any loophole left in discussions before, so I refused to agree to it, but the agreement was made between himself and Sesshomaru, and Abtract soon backed out of it and returned to his usual behavior.

In late August, he falsely claimed that he was leaving Wikipedia all together, leaving a snarky "goodbye" message on my talk page.[1]. This was pretty much a completely false statement, as he quickly restarted his stalking and harassing edits, following behind my contribs to make minor edits behind me and edit conflicting me. In particularly he did this after I foolishly took his goodbye as the truth and began editing the Oxford Scientific Films article. He had initially created this article as another form of harassment because it was on my list of articles to create and directly related to Meerkat Manor which is a set of articles I am most involved with and he was warned to stay away from. Before editing, I asked JHunterJ, who had rmeoved Abtract's indef blocked, about editing it and he said to edit as normal.[2] So I did so, doing massive amounts of clean up, removing the factual errors and bad writing, expanding it, etc. Whenever I had an editing session, Abtract would pop in to make minor edits, then complain when we'd edit conflict. In one edit summary after I reverted his inappropriate changing of the date format from British to English, he wrote "get away woman."[3].

Abtract watches my contribs and randomly reacts to them, sometimes undoing them, sometimes filing false 3RR reports, such as he did during a disagreement at InuYasha[4]., or welcoming editors that I reverted for bad edits, including a vandal that was already indef blocked when he left a welcome on the user's user page (the talk page was locked!)[5]. While I thank the multiple admins who attempted to resolve this situation through the agreements, Abtract continues finding ways to game the system and break the spirit of the agreement by nitpicking the wording (or claiming its confusing). For half a year now I have had to deal with this stalking and harassment. As I hope can be seen above, Abtract does this purposefully and willfully because he thinks I have some obligation to "mollify him" and has a personal vendetta against me. I find his behavior disturbing on many many levels. I debated leaving Wikipedia, but I abhor the idea of letting such a person "win" by chasing me away from an activity I enjoy and I continue to have faith that Wikipedia will enforce its own anti-harassment and civility policies and put a stop to this once and for all. -- Collectonian (talk · contribs) 00:59, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Natalya

Not a whole lot to say (or, perhaps, so many convoluted things to say that it's probably best not even to try), but I will say that we've attempted all manner of arrangments and rules and agreements between Abtract and Collectonian/Sesshomaru to allow them to still contibute productively to the encyclopedia, while not causing hassle to the other party. Somehow, sadly, none of these things were able to actually work for very long at all, and while I can't speak for JHunterJ and LessHeard vanU, I know that at least for myself, I have become so wrapped up in this (and they're likely more wrapped up in it than I) that I don't think I can even think straight about the best way to go about handling the disputes between the two parties. I sincerely hope that a better solution can be found, and if appropriate, here through Arbitration. -- Natalya 03:03, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by JHunterJ

Beyond what LessHeard vanU says above and Ncmvocalist says below, I believe the chief sticking points now are

  1. Possibility of penalties imposed retroactively against Abtract under restrictions that haven't been adopted.[6]
  2. Abtract->Collectonian stalking perceived by Collectonian

The perceived stalking has lead to some complaints that I consider frivolous: This complaint about a welcome message to a user who hadn't been welcomed yet (but had been warned by Collectonian), or this complaint about an acknowledged good edit. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by uninvolved Ncmvocalist

NB: L=LessHeard vanU, C=Collectonian, A=Abtract, S=Sesshomaru, J=JHunterJ. Unless arbitrators have specific questions for me, this statement is also my evidence.

Introduction

Rather than at the RFC/U, I commented on this dispute as an outside party for the first time during an ANI report, which had been filed by C. L blocked A indefinitely and put the action for review in the report (16 July 2008), and a few users including myself expressed a mixture of agreement with the block, and disagreement with the indef duration (I felt blocks should follow a sequence - eg; 24hrs, 48hrs, etc.) On 18 July, in the same thread, L requested another review on the matter due to A arguing that the block was biased, and on 19 July I reviewed it. I was unconvinced by (and found problems with) C's complaint to justify the duration. L explained his reasoning in a timely manner (within 3 hours). Still, he respected the outside opinion, and changed the block duration to follow that sequence. (See this thread, and the next 2 threads.)

Voluntary restriction

I then wrote out an agreement for A, C and S to follow. A and S agreed, but despite requests by several users including myself, C refused to sign the agreement - this did not help. Anyway, J unblocked A under the agreement. C was unhappy with this and refused to let me close the ANI discussion without some sort of restraining order being put on A, despite the fact I'd explained that it was not possible. In any case, things did manage to die down (or so I thought) and I didn't follow the dispute for sometime after this. Apparently, both A and S violated their agreement and J enforced it against both users (with blocks). After some discussion, A and S agreed to end the agreement: noted by J on 25 August. (See this.)

Non-voluntary restriction

On 2 September, C complained to L (about A). L then requested for my input. I looked into it and gave my view, along with a few proposals on how to resolve the dispute. See C's complaint, and my view in the next thread at 16:38. After discussing it between all parties and myself, L notified the parties of the non-voluntary restrictions that are in effect on 13 September, which went unopposed at WP:AN. Since then, I have not followed this matter thinking it's resolved.

Request for arbitration

Clearly, the problems have not been resolved and the methods we've tried are not working. There's nothing more I can offer - certainly nothing outside of ArbCom - that has a chance of resolving this dispute. I'm fairly confident the wider community can and will not do much more either. This has gone on for months, and it has come to the point where I (like the rest of the parties listed here) think enough is enough. (I don't want to go back to either the wider community or ArbCom anytime in the future regarding this matter - so that's the sort of remedies that I'd favour in this case). I ask that the case be accepted by the Committee to end this matter. Ncmvocalist (talk) 09:18, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to jpgordon
  • Been there, done that, per the non-voluntary editing restriction here which is still in effect. Background/context on the non-voluntary editing restriction is available in my above statement. I'm afraid what users seek here is something more restrictive than that. Ncmvocalist (talk) 10:08, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by non-recused Clerks.
  • Four net votes to accept noted. Unless this net four no longer exists, this case will be opened around 1200 UTC Wednesday 15 October. Daniel (talk) 23:50, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrators' opinion on hearing this matter (5/0/0/0)

  • Accept. I can't even tell what these editors are arguing about, in some instances, but the pattern of interaction between them is unhealthy and needs to stop, and there certainly is ample evidence that dispute-resolution methods short of arbitration are not working. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:10, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment, or rather, question, to all parties: is this not the sort of case most likely to result in a "keep utterly away from each other" ruling? Can a clean break be made? --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 02:40, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept, voluntary and the current non-voluntary restrictions are not working. FloNight♥♥♥ 13:01, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • To LessHeard vanU, perhaps a motion can be voted on (that confirms the editing restrictions) by the Committee shortly after the case opens. You can make the suggestion at the top of the workshop page. FloNight♥♥♥ 20:39, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Accept; other attempts at dispute resolution seem to have failed. Per Flo, some form of injunction might be necessary while the case is open. --bainer (talk) 12:29, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would also accept. Sam Blacketer (talk) 23:55, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clarifications and other requests

Shortcuts

Place requests related to amendments of prior cases, appeals, and clarifications on this page. If the case is ongoing, please use the relevant talk page. Requests for enforcement of past cases should be made at Arbitration enforcement. Requests to clarify general Arbitration matters should be made on the Talk page. To create a new request for arbitration, please go to Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Place new requests at the top. Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/How-to other requests


Current requests

Request for extension: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Episodes and characters 2

Involved users

Statement by Phil Sandifer

TTN was banned from deletion activities for six months for his failure to work "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community" on the area of notability and deletion. Since the expiration of his ban, his contributions have been entirely to "merge" content (I say merge because, in fact, he simply redirects pages without discussion), and mass-nominate articles for deletion. For instance, his mass-redirection of articles with identical edit summaries: [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] and so on. These edits were unaccompanied by any edits to talk pages to garner consensus. Indeed, even as the very policies he cites as justification are under heavy discussion, including an RFC that got a watchlist notice, TTN has made no contributions towards seeking consensus. None. Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise shows no comments by him.

Regardless of the appropriateness of his nominations, this is the behavior he was previously sanctioned for. And he has returned to it. The routine norm, in such cases, is, at a minimum, to restore the sanctions that were actually effective at preventing the behavior.

Therefore, given his continued failure to work collaboratively and constructively, and the fact that he has returned to the exact behavior that got him previously sanctioned, I request that the arbitration committee restore Remedy 1 from the relevant case without expiration. Phil Sandifer (talk) 06:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to some of the comments below, this is not about the accuracy of TTN's deletion nominations. I would vote delete on about half of them myself. The issue is not whether his proposals are within consensus or not - it is on whether he is working collaboratively and constructively with the broader community. That necessarily involves some level of dialogue with said community. As for the suggestion that editors of fiction articles are also working outside of consensus, I do not see extending this remedy as precluding enforcement against other problematic users, and I would be surprised if the arbcom did.
A further piece of evidence as well. I encourage anybody to look at [12]. Those are TTN's talk page contributions. Note that the overwhelming majority of them are redirects or template removals of pages. There are only a handful of cases - once every two or three days - where TTN is discussing his edits. Compare to the 8 edits he has made so far to talk pages making any discussion of his edits in October to the over 250 edits he has made so far to articles either nominating them for deletion or merging them in October. That is in no way, in letter or spirit, complying with the directive to work collaboratively and constructively with other editors. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:29, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Protonk, I'm not pillorying TTN over the deletion or merger. But if we don't have a consensus on these issues, and I agree with you that we don't, we need to try to find one. Please explain to me how over 250 merges and deletions in a week with only 8 comments on talk pages about them constitute attempts to find consensus, or to work with other editors. Please explain to me how TTN is in any way complying with the instruction that previous non-compliance with led to a six month ban from these issues. Because otherwise, this seems straightforward - he was previously sanctioned for something. He is doing it again. What's changed? Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:32, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In response to Bainer's comments, with all due respect, the claim that there is nowhere to discuss these issues except for AfD is absurd. When merging articles, the article talk pages are a fine place to discuss merges. (Or, more accurately, redirects) For the large batch of episodes of the TV show Heroes he recently mass redirected I would think that stopping in at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Heroes might have been effective.
Were TTN interested in discussion and consensus-building, even with the continued contentiousness of a general guideline for fiction, many opportunities were available to him, not least of which was participating in the RFC to work on the notability issues for fiction. That TTN ignored all of these channels and ignored attempts to build consensus on this issue does not seem to me to be a good thing, and I am, frankly, baffled how you can suggest that AfD was the only channel open to him. Phil Sandifer (talk) 23:33, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I am, frankly, dismayed to see the overall conduct of the Arbcom in this - after two rulings that clearly establish a bar for actions in this area to clear - seeking consensus, discussing, and working with other editors - the arbcom seems to, now that the case has made it to them a third time, they seem to be simply backing up from their previous ruling and deciding that the whole thing is a content dispute. While I understand their reluctance to be involved in notability issues, given that they have twice issued a ruling on exactly this issue to decide that suddenly it is a content issue that they cannot rule on is baffling. Perhaps one of the arbitrators could better articulate why mass nomination for deletion has suddenly become a content rather than a conduct issue. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:35, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SirFozzie

You know, I'm beginning to think "Episodes and Characters" is the ArbCom version of the Chinese Water Torture. I think TTN has been working within Wikipedia Guidelines. One can never fruitfully seek consensus to delete or redirect on a talk page, quite frankly, the most interested (or should I say biased) people to keeping an article on that article. I suggest that ArbCom deny this request and tell BOTH sides to continue to work within policy, rather then constantly seeking the heavy hammer of ArbCom to do their work for them. SirFozzie (talk) 07:34, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by sgeureka

...And another E&C arbcom thread aiming to expose TTN as the evil culprit, while fan editors are sooooo totally working "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community", restoring articles that fail WP policies and guidelines left and right instead of fixing the deficiencies to a minimum level so that the messenger (TTN) leaves them alone. (I'd say more but these may-I-say-misguided TTN-arbcom appeals are just getting tiresome.) – sgeureka t•c 11:53, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CBDunkerson

TTN recently nominated Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch for deletion. The discussion was closed as a snowball keep. TTN then immediately placed a merge tag on the article. That's just not 'working within consensus'. There was an overwhelming consensus to keep the article. NOT to make it a redirect to a brief mention in another article, TTN's acknowledged definition of 'merge'... otherwise known as deletion. Continually pressing against the lack of general consensus around notability standards for fictional topics with constant deletion efforts is IMO bad enough... but ignoring consensus when it does form is a problem. When he loses an argument he needs to accept that. NOT try to get the same result people just overwhelmingly rejected through the back door. --CBD 12:50, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Protonk (talk)

This is the same basic request as the previous request for clarification. The answer here should be the same. We don't have a functioning guideline to deal with notability of fictional subjects--specifically those which do not cite any sources. Many, many articles on fictional subjects will either never have sources or will never cite sources (because people can't be bothered). Until we have some community accepted guideline for inclusion it doesn't help to pillory TTN over the deletion or merger of these articles.

His case came to ArbComm because of edit warring over merger tags and redirects. Proposing mergers and nominating articles for deletion isn't the same thing. It is clear that what TTN wants to do is reduce the number of fictional articles we have on wikipedia. I don't think that the result of the previous case should read "TTN cannot work to reduce the number of fictional articles". I agree that people are pissed about the Monty Python thing, although the merger proposal was perfectly reasonable. I have fewer defenses for this copy/paste AfD rationales, but I don't think either act is a refusal to respect consensus. when I say pillory I don't mean you in particular. I mean to say that the debate is larger than TTN and that without some clear resolution of that larger debate we can't blame him for forcing current community standards on articles that people like.

Statement by Kww

TTN is working as cooperatively as possible with people that don't tend to be cooperative. He is bringing the articles to AFD, and participating in the AFD discussions. He is not performing unilateral redirect and mergings, because, even though they are far more efficient, he was told to stop.

As for Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch, there actually is a cooperative merge discussion going on at Talk:Monty Python and the Holy Grail#Merge, where most of the participants are being polite and cooperative. The snowball keep came as a result of a pile-on by fans, not as a result of any policy based discussions.

I think we are at the point where reporting TTN to Arbcom is more of a problem than TTN himself.—Kww(talk) 17:02, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kung Fu Man

TTN is a pain in a great deal of asses here on wikipedia, mine included. However, for the most part he is trying to be cooperative and clean things up and do it by the books: case in point an AfD that was closed by him after two people pointed out quickly the characters in the nominated article were mentioned in other books and notable. I seriously don't think at this point in time this is necessary at all.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:57, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by nifboy

As I complained about in the previous RFAR thread, as well as an AfD filed solely because TTN didn't, this feels increasingly like bureaucracy creep. AfD is increasingly treated like a CYA, discouraging WP:BOLD across the project. Nifboy (talk) 21:15, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Black Kite

"As for the suggestion that editors of fiction articles are also working outside of consensus, I do not see extending this remedy as precluding enforcement against other problematic users, and I would be surprised if the arbcom did." This comedic request for clarification would indicate that the current ArbCom actually do think that. In the end, what do we want Wikipedia to be? If we want it to be a free-for-all without regard to independent notability, feel free to reset TTN's sanction. If we want it to be an encyclopedia, he's going about it in the only way possible - there is intrasigence on both sides here and I don't see that concentrating on TTN - yet again - is particularly helpful. Let's face it, he's not exactly doing it for his health [13].Black Kite 22:56, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by DGG

I see no real evidence of cooperation. Day after day he continues to nominate 5 to 10 articles for deletion without considering the possibility of merge or redirect--if asked about why he has not done so he almost always ignores the question. Day after day he uses the same deletion summary, without indicating anything about the individual article--he does not help the discussion by even indicating what work of fiction it is or what role the character plays; when asked to clarify his deletion summaries he ignores that also. He generally nominates articles at the same time of widely varying importance from different fictions; either he is working indiscriminately, or deliberately making it very hard to defend intelligently: he can use the same deletion argument for everything, since he includes every possible reason for deleting an article, but a defense of the article has to be focused & cover them all in detail. He continues sometimes to redirect without discussion. I'm not going to add to the diffs here-- 99 % of the diffs on his contributions show this, so there's hardly need to select. But as an example, showing his consistent pattern of asking for sources and then, if found, denying relevance, see "Most recent prime-time episodes are reviewed by a number of sources" used by him as a delete argument! The one sensible close pointed out by Kung Fu Man was yesterday, and he's been quiet since--after it became clear this was going to be filed. This matches what to me is the proof of his bad faith is the immediate resumption of deletion activity immediate after the arb com moratorium. His enforced departure from merge/deletion/redirect will not hurt the deletionist cause any more than his previous enforced departure did: there are enough others trying to carry out a rationalisation of the content, generally in a less damaging way. The victory at Wikipedia discussions should not go to the most stubborn. DGG (talk) 00:19, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

the BRD approach requires being willing to enter into Discussion,and only works when people are reasonable about it. There are other editors who sometimes may be unreasonable, but not to this extent. Failing to agree on a guideline discussion is not being disruptive, and not in the same category as making massive afds and redirects. That people did not all want to adopt someone's proposals does not mean they are disruptive. DGG (talk) 07:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC).[reply]

Statement by Sjakkalle

What ticks me off with TTN is not that he has very strict (in my opinion way too strict) standards for fictional topics. It is that he has apparently no interest at all in creating any content whatsoever. His edits are overwhelmingly target towards removing or deleting content. Even while he was banned from AFD-ing or merging fiction topics, his main activity consisted of "trimming" fiction topics.

It also concerns me that TTN has a tendency to fire off AFD nominations at machine gun pace; with several nominations taking place within the space of a few minutes. Has he taken enough time to review each article he nominates, and think carefully through what alternatives there might be to deletion?

I have worked with a lot of users who could be described (sometimes by themselves) as "deletionist", and I can recognize them as excellent contributors; their deletionism is tempered by excellent content writing. Therefore, they realize and can empathize with the challenges in locating sources. They become peer contributors who can discuss and work cooperatively, instead of policemen who hammer down on everything. I can only hope that TTN will redirect his energies towards some article writing. Sjakkalle (Check!) 07:07, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Stifle

I massively oppose any reinstatement of sanctions against TTN. He is doing a very good job clearing up unencyclopedic material, is doing it civilly, and is coming up against entrenched opposition from vested interests. Stifle (talk) 10:09, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MuZemike

As feared, it is my opinion that this (as well as any such discussion involving TTN) has devolved into a inclusionist/deletionist debate. A lot of the AfDs he nominated I happen to agree with, but some I also have disagreed; but that's beside the point. It seems that more than anything many users — which include obviously biased editors, fanboys, and others with extremely vested interests in articles to the point of ownership — want TTN with a proverbial rope around his neck, even to the point that some users have resorted to sockpuppetry and even death threats. I only see this as a ploy to keep bugging ArbCom until they get the result they so desire. MuZemike (talk) 20:26, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by CharlotteWebb

I don't see how TTN's immediate resumption of the same behavior that let to a six-month topic ban (from merging and AFDing articles related to fiction) can be anything other than exhausting the community's patience. He's certainly exhausted mine. I don't usually edit articles related to fiction, but I do often read them whenever I can. Quite frankly it pisses me off when I have to dig through the edit history or look on Deletionpedia to find the information I'm looking for.

I urge the committee to accept this case and consider issuing a ban of greater duration and breadth. — CharlotteWebb 21:27, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Randomran

I just don't see any real policy breach. He's using Wikipedia's process as it has been designed:

  • Be bold
  • Revert edits you disagree with
  • Instead of revert warring, discuss. (For example, AFD or a merge discussion.)

Bold editing is not only acceptable, it is encouraged. "Any changes you make that turn out badly can be reverted, often quite painlessly." And indeed some of TTN's changes were reverted. I disagree with many of his editing decisions, but he certainly has the right to try them out, as much as people have the right to revert them. I would only have an issue if he started revert warring, or canvassing, or waiting around until no one was looking to try the exact same thing again. But so far, he seems to get the WP:POINT whenever the consensus forms. That's good, isn't it?

The other complaints are more dubious. Nominating articles for AFD with an explanation of the policy violation is insufficient? Suggesting a merge after a failed AFD is disruptive? In my view, starting a discussion is almost always a *good* thing. That's where editors get to challenge his view of the content and build a consensus with or against him. Consensus building is always helpful! I repeat for the sake of summarizing and emphasizing: starting a discussion about content is almost always good faith, and almost always helpful.

(As an aside, the same isn't true for starting a discussion about a user's behavior. It seems there are a few editors who have piled in because TTN breached sanctions that expired a month ago. You can't ask to throw someone back in jail just because they're exercising rights that they were previously entitled to.)

The only time when discussing content stops being helpful is where it becomes repetitive, out of step with settled policy or consensus. Where discussion becomes WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT or WP:FORUMSHOPping. But that means that the editor has to be shown that he/she is re-opening the same issue over and over. Someone has to make a good faith effort to educate the problem editor, rather than jumping into accusations or bureaucratic sanctions. For example, the idea that a few reliable third-party sources are insufficient for notability seems to go against consensus -- let alone what WP:N says. I haven't taken a closer look at this particular content dispute, so maybe there's actually a policy reason that justifies TTN's viewpoint. But you won't know until you actually try to discuss it with him, preferably at his talk page away from any specific content.

As someone who just wants articles to meet guidelines -- no more and no less -- I'm sympathetic to people who are frustrated with extreme deletionists or inclusionists, who invent their own standards for inclusion. Even though extremists seldom get their way, it can be frustrating to butt heads with them over and over, after one issue has been settled. I don't think it has gotten to that point yet because I haven't seen TTN trying to re-open settled issues in a WP:POINTy or WP:GAMEy way. But everyone should do what they can to make sure it doesn't go there. That's equally true if people keep requesting new or extended sanctions against TTN without showing a real policy/guideline breach. Randomran (talk) 21:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Masem

If people believe TTN's present actions (which are generally targeting articles that do lack notability, and with methods that follow the WP:BRD approach) are against ArbCom, then we should be bringing up those editors (both inclusionists and deletionists) that are prevent any sort of compromise in the last year and half to resolve issues with fiction and notability. We've tried to offer a middle of the road solution (the current failed WP:FICT proposal), we're trying to work out how to resolve this on the general scale with the general notability guideline, but the same names keep coming up (for opposite sides of the issue) saying these doesn't meet what they want. Given that the second part of the ArbCom decision was to get all involved editors to work cooperatively to revolve the issue of notability and episodes and characters, and these people are not helping towards a compromise, then they are as much at fault as TTN is above by his current actions...

But of course, I'm not going to call these names forward for ArbCom arbitration, just as much as I don't believe that TTN is doing anything against the overall ArbCom case. But it is important to remind those that would like to see nothing less than TTN banned from editing WP forever that the decision was not unilaterally towards TTN's actions; cooperation and compromise are needed as well. --MASEM 23:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by jc37

In general, as bainer notes below, there is really no "common practice" when it comes to such articles. Such AfD results often vary wildly.

Let's presume that someday we do develop some sort of policy/guideline, which most everyone can agree on.

Does that mean that we're then going to have to go back through all these articles which have been deleted/merged/redirected, and restore them? A herculean task, which should never be necessary, but will be, regardless.

I've seen enough fait accompli to understand that while theoretically, deletions (and moves, and merges, etc.) can be undone, it's usually much more difficult in practice.

I think this is just another case of "everyone's got a divergent opinion", and there are those who don't want to see the house burned down before the process of remodeling has been completed.

Incidentally, here's another "start" to such a discussion: Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise. - jc37 08:40, 10 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Y|yukichigai

While I have no particular love for TTN, at this point I'm not exactly calling for his head either. He has nominated a rather large number of articles for deletion and redirected several others in the wake of his restriction lapsing, which I think is a bit excessive, but he doesn't seem to be engaging as much in the same "revert every attempt to restore the article and ignore all discussion" behavior which rallied the figurative Angry Mob With Pitchforks and Torches last time around. The fact that he is still doing it at all is troubling though, because it's causing the same sort of issues that effectively led to a wiki-wide edit war, only this time it's happening slower.

I honestly think TTN has put forth an effort to change, but somehow he's not quite gotten a handle on the whole "you don't have the final say" part of things. At this point I wouldn't endorse an indefinite re-extension of the restriction, but I would endorse a temporary re-extension for a few months just to "gently" re-affirm the point of the last RfArb. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 15:32, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to add that after reading Wizardman's statement I most definitely agree: ArbCom needs to make some sort of definitive statement regarding TTN's behavior, one way or the other. Anything resembling a "no consensus" will simply delay things for a few months (or weeks) whereupon a new request for clarification will show up again. -- Y|yukichigai (ramble argue check) 22:12, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Gazimoff

I raised this same issue at this same venue about three weeks ago. I was hoping that the concerns and issues would be thrashed out, but it's disappointing to see that it's returned to this venue.

To be honest, I do not have a problem with TTN raising articles for deletion, or creating redirects, or merging content. These are a much needed part of the general content editing process that helps promote good articles. Although I would be happier if TTN demonstrated that he searched for sources himself before removing content, I can understand why it takes place.

My primary concern then, as it is now, is the througput or the rate at which he carries out content removal actions or raises AfDs. It is the volume of work that I feel causes concerns amongst the content creators in the community, and which I'm almost certain has brought this back here. It's not a content dispute, as I'm sure we can come to agreeents on content through other processes. It's behavioural - his activity occurs at such a rate that it stretches the ability for other editors to respond to his concerns.

I would encourage TTN to work with Wikiprojects in order to discuss his article concerns becore embarking on mass or large scale actions. I would also urge TTN to throttle or limit the rate at which he removes content or raises AfDs in order to ensure that the rest of the editing community has a legitemate chance to respond to his concerns.

Many thanks, Gazimoff 18:53, 11 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Josiah Rowe

It's been suggested that TTN is operating under WP:BRD. He's certainly being bold, and many of his edits are indeed reverted — but in proportion to his bold edits, there is very little discussion. I don't know if further sanctions are appropriate or needed here, but I do think that a strong encouragement towards more discussion and civil engagement with other editors would be helpful. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 17:53, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Jayron32

I am entirely uninvolved in this situation, I was never involved in any of the deltions, nor any discussions involving this user or this problem in the past. I am merely commenting as someone who has been a passive observer for months. This is not about the deletions of articles of TV characters, this is about the specific behavior of TTN with regard to making WP:POINTs, especially as it comes to these articles and his behavior at AFD and other places. The act of proposing mass deletions of entire groups of articles with little or no rationale is disruptive. That each of his deletions has the exact same deltion reason shows that he has no intention of considering each article on its own merits, the speed of these nominations shows that he isn't considering that there may be some articles which are deletable, and others which DO pass muster. It would appear from his actions that he is merely trying to delete an entire class of articles at Wikipedia, and as such, is attempting to use AFD to create policy. However, this is old news, because this is the exact same behavior that led to the recently expired sanctions. Seriously, the expectation of setting an expiration date on the sanctions is that, after the sanctions, the behavior would change in some meaningful way. The behavior has not, so the sanctions should return. The points made by bainer below may be 100% accurate, but not one of these statements excuses TTN for disrupting the process in this way. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:42, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pixelface

TTN is now on a mission to purge the "video game and anime and manga character categories."[14] I brought up videogame characters[15] in the E&C2 Arbcom case [16], 7 days after Newyorkbrad changed the injunction to be only about TV characters [17]. On February 28, Newyorkbrad proposed the remedy that ultimately passed and that restricted TTN concerning articles about TV episodes and characters [18] — which was 3 weeks after I brought up the issue of videogame character articles. Category:Video game characters has 1,166 articles in it according to this tool, and Category:Anime and manga characters has 2,698 articles in it according to the same tool — for a total of 3,864 articles. Evaluating the articles in those categories may actually not be a bad idea. But I think TTN is the last editor who should do it. Is there not a point where a certain number of AFDs per day started by one user becomes disruptive?

TTN has created the articles Darkrai (a Pokemon), 5 LOCs List of Monsters, Inc. characters, List of Samurai Shodown Characters, List of Histeria! characters, List of Last Blade characters, List of One Piece characters, and 2 DAB pages Konk and Slowpoke. TTN appears to know a good deal about Dragonball, Naruto, and Pokemon, and I think TTN should continue to contribute to those areas. But the speed that TTN is nominating articles for deletion puts a huge burden on editors actually willing to do research — research that TTN himself seems absolutely unwilling to do.

In November 2007 in E&C1, TTN said[19] "I'm just going to be utilizing AfDs more often rather than revert warring." In E&C2, TTN was placed under editing restrictions for six months. During that time he was blocked twice for violating his restrictions. When those restrictions expired, TTN began (and continues) a mass deletion spree with cut-and-paste nominations, using Twinkle. A remedy proposed in E&C2 prohibiting the use of Twinkle to mass nominate articles for deletion was ignored by arbitrators.[20] If the articles in question are really so egregious that they need to be evaluated now, I'm confident that some other editor (one not involved in E&C1 or E&C2} can do it. For example, WikiProject Anime and manga and WikiProject Video games could be of help. You might say that other people are evaluating the articles, because TTN is nominating them for deletion, and other editors are discussing them, but a robot could make the same cut-and-paste nominations at the speed TTN is making them. There is no deadline, WP:FICT isn't even a guideline anymore, WP:PLOT never had consensus to be policy, and WP:N is in flux. Personally I think TTN has continued to fail to work "collaboratively and constructively with the broader community." I think TTN may have learned some bad habits from the suspected sockpuppet (and troll) Wiki-star at Talk:Majin Buu, the talk page of an article about a Dragonball character.

I have personally never seen TTN add any material with citation to any article (although I would happily welcome some evidence of that). It appears to me that someone, somewhere hurt TTN's feelings. Everything to him is "pointless" or "unnecessary." I don't know how old TTN is, but a troll was calling TTN a "bastard"[21] 7 days into TTN's editing and that may have had a big influence on TTN's future willingness to interact with other editors. I think TTN learned long ago that it was much easier for him to just do whatever he wanted without trying to talk with other editors — this is evident on early archives of his user talk page. So the effect is that of a steamroller. TTN is exhausting the community's patience. Although he does appear to have a handful of supporters.

A principle in E&C2 stated "It is inappropriate to use repetition or volume in order to present opponents with a fait accompli or to exhaust their ability to contest the change." I think the volume that TTN is producing new AFDs with Twinkle goes against that principle. I would support an indefinite extension of TTN's previous editing restrictions. I would first support another 6-month extension, but I fear that will only mean another appearance before ArbCom in six months. I think TTN may possibly be helped with some mentorship, which, in hindsight, should have been a remedy in E&C2. --Pixelface (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In response to Thebainer, "One has to begin with the observation that the community has failed to produce a notability guideline particularly for either television episodes or fictional characters", then why is TTN is acting like there is one? I've previously suggested that WP:EPISODE be turned into a notability guideline (since TTN was claiming it was anyway) and during E&C2 I asked Newyorkbrad to designate a place for the parties to "develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question." I also asked about mass AFDs in March [22]. There was an RFC on WP:FICT in June and TTN did participate. But FICT failed to achieve consensus, and it was eventually marked an essay and fully protected. From there, Wikipedia:Notability/RFC:compromise was started. Before that, I suggested to Masem that a survey be started at WT:FICT. I've written up a draft of the survey and I still think it's a good idea. At one point, WP:FICT *was* based on AFD precedents, but the guideline gradually mutated into the mess it is now. It may be that Wikipedia needs a better system of creating and modifying policies and guidelines than the current free-for-all. --Pixelface (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fordmadoxfraud

I edit a lot of comics articles, and I am aware that the community in which I operate, and that of many other media-related subjects, such as anime and television, have not entirely grokked the utter necessity for reliable sources in all that we do. However. This is not a failing that is remedied by wholesale removals of content or by alienating interested editors who need improvement. TTN might be knowledgeable about the subject, but until his production of references for articles (which, so far as I can tell, stands at exactly zero) comes even remotely close to his deletions, merges and nominations, he can only be seen as putting undue weight on the editors already working to improve and ref these articles.

Several editors have voiced fatigue at the return of this subject, of "another" TTN thread at arbcom, and have dismissed concerns raised against him as those of "vested interests" and "fan editors" who have their knives out for TTN because he culls their pet articles. The majority of TTN's nominations and merges are not horrendous bad calls, but that is not the point: when an editor merges and nominates for deletion with such hyperbolic frequency, and in only communities in which he offers absolutely no other participation--or even the barest word of discussion--that editor is a disruptive influence. Particularly when a pattern of behavior which yielded a six month block is entirely resumed with no change in nature or character.

Those who are suggesting that the debate here is bigger than TTN are also missing the point. TTN is not serving as a scapegoat for the community's utter failure to develop generally accepted standards of notability regarding fictional topics. TTN is an editor who refuses to offer even a token level of discourse with the affected communities and editors.Ford MF (talk) 20:23, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response to VasileGaburici: Again no one is saying that the creation of redirects or the bringing of articles to AfD are, in themselves, bad things. These are both valuable services to the community at large. The people demurring here seem to be under the impression that people are saying "this guy redirects and deletes stuff", and therefore is bad, which makes the discussion about inclusionism/deletionism, which is an offramp to nowhere that effectively stymies any discussion of the effects of TTN's behavior. This is not the issue.
The issue is that TTN's entire, prolific (or whatever negative proliferation is) mode on Wikipedia is to remove content with a volume and frequency that effectively blocks the interested communities from responding intelligently to the concerns that he raises. If he can be said to be raising concerns at all, as his talkpage contributions are, putting it charitably, minimal. There is no conceivable way in which TTN can be said to be "working with" the interested communities at all. And to the people who demur "but these communities have a vested interest in the material and cannot be counted on to be impartial in these discussions", all I have to say is "duh". That's why communities exist in the first place. That doesn't mean it's okay to utterly ignore discourse with the communities, which is essentially what TTN does. You would be hard pressed to find, in TTN's voluminous contributions, much of any edits made to wikiproject spaces. His monomaniacal devotion to articles of a very narrow subject range and his utter refusal to address the concerns about his behavior made by a number of Wikipedia colleagues, constitute a pattern of continuous disruptive behavior. The fact that his disruption is caused via the processes of merging and deletion is a non-issue. Ford MF (talk) 18:30, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Wizardman

Seems like every other week TTN's back here, deserving or not. So I ask arbcom, make a ruling. Either permanently restrict his edits the way they were in E+C 2, or don't restrict his edits and bar future discussions to do so. It's going to have to be one extreme or the other just so we can finally put this to rest. A no consensus will see this continue again, and again, and again. Wizardman 21:24, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by VasileGaburici

Reading this new October 12 AN/I thread made me come here. I agree with the statements made by Stifle and MuZemike above. Ironically, the results of the AfDs initiated by TTN often are merge/redirect (see AN/I thread for examples), exactly what he was banned from doing by himself, except that after an AfD some community consensus is established for the article in question. So, in the absence of any guidelines to the contrary, I don't see disruption on behalf of TTN for bringing articles to the attention of the community, as Thebainer pointed out. On the other hand the editors (some of them admins) that are constantly asking for TTN's head are disruptive because they are trying to subvert the well established AfD process. VG ☎ 02:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by How do you turn this on

Since his restriction was lifted on 10 September, TTN has done not much more than create hundreds of XFDs for episode and character subjects, with his first being on the 11th. It seems to me he's sat out the ban fine, but the moment it's lifted, has reverted to the behaviour that started it in the first place. I, like Wizardman, ask ArbCom to make a more permanent ruling on this. It's not that the nominations in themselves are disruptive; it's the appearance that he's held it all in in the six months he was banned from doing it, and has made thousands of edits in the banned area since his ban was lifted, compared to June, July and August when he made significantly fewer edits. A temporary restriction clearly isn't working, and as Phil points out at the top, he doesn't seem particularly interested in discussing, which is really one of the bigger issues here. -- how do you turn this on 20:46, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carcharoth

Just a quick statement in direct response to what Flonight said. I think your position is reasonable, until one remembers that deletion (and nomination for deletion) is quicker than article improvement. It is possible for a small rump of "deletionists" to focus on a particular area and overwhelm the efforts of those wanting to keep poor-quality articles and take the time to improve them. Equally, it is possible for those creating poor-quality articles to overwhelm the "improvement" and "deletion" camps. So what I think you have here is three camps:

  • (1) a fast rate of article production by "fans"
  • (2) an attempt by "deletionists" to stem the tide (foiled by local consensus by "fans")
  • (3) an attempt by "inclusionists" to keep articles and improve them.

Both (2) and (3) are being overwhelmed by (1), since that is the fastest process. (3) is being overwhelmed by both (1) and (2) as it is the slowest process. What is needed here is better management of the workflow. Either turn off (or reduce) the source of new articles (could have unintended consequences) or place strict limits on the rates at which processes (2) [deletion] and (3) [article improvement] take place. The point being that these two processes should not be responsive to each other, but they should both be responsive to the rate of article creation. i.e. If the rate of article creation goes up, the amount of deletion debates should go up (if the articles are good, they will be kept anyway). If the rate of article creation goes down, people should turn their attention to article improvement to allow the rate of article creation to recover. Otherwise, the logical end point is that the rate of article creation will eventually plateau, article deletions will carry on at the same rate (i.e. faster than article improvement) and the endpoint will be that the level of articles will stablise at a level that "deletionsists" would prefer, and not the level at which "inclusionists" would prefer. Eventually, as the good articles get written, the level will increase again to the "inclusionist" level. But a lot of goodwill will be lost in the process. Carcharoth (talk) 22:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • One has to begin with the observation that the community has failed to produce a notability guideline particularly for either television episodes or fictional characters. The best there is is the general fiction notability guideline. In the absence of any specific guidance, there are really no methods available to seek the input of the community at large about such articles other than deletion debates; indeed, that's the approach envisaged by the general guideline. On what has been presented here, TTN is not repeatedly nominating articles, nor being disruptive within the discussions. The Committee is being asked (again) to remedy the community's failure to produce some coherent approach to these articles by banning someone with a particular point of view about them, and I do not think that is right. --bainer (talk) 22:39, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re Phil Sandifer, I should emphasise that I was discussing methods for seeking the input of the community at large, as opposed to obtaining what is usually called the "local consensus" (at the article talk page, or in this context also at the WikiProject page). Really the only alternative to attract a broad array of input other than a deletion debate is a request for comment on the article, and that is even less feasible. --bainer (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Re Pixelface, I agree. The project does need a better method for developing policies, but per Flo, that method is not de facto development by ArbCom ruling. --bainer (talk) 12:46, 14 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is primarily a content dispute, so I reject further involvement as the situation now stands. As I noted in my recent comment on this topic on this page, TNN (nor any other user as far as it relates to this current situation) has not violated any policy or conducted himself in a manner that is disruptive. This is a classic case of one side of the dispute seeing disruptive editing where none exists because they have a difference of opinion with the involved editor. Rather I see this as a two sided issue, with some users thinking that loads of non-notable articles are started and that the Community has trouble keeping up with removing them so many AFDs/mergers are needed. Other users think that too many notable articles are being put up for deletion or merger discussion. Both sides in the conflict feel that the situation will be out of control if the other side is allowed to continue unchecked. As pointed out by bainer, since the Community has not reached consensus on a policy/guideline on the topic, we have repeated cycles of the issue causing content disputes. The Community needs to find a way to write this policy and not look to the Committee to do it through Committee ruling that causes a back door policy decision that one side can link to in future discussions. FloNight♥♥♥ 16:06, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for extension: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Martinphi-ScienceApologist

Involved users

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

Martinphi is under an editing restriction because he " has engaged in a variety of disruptive behavior, including, but not limited to, using Wikipedia as a soapbox, threatening disruption of the project, and making deliberately provocative edits" (Finding of Fact #2, sans links). It is becoming increasingly clear that he has not yet learned proper Wikipedia behaviour. and, as the restriction is due to expire in November, I am asking that it be extended a further year.

For instance, here he claims that WP:NPOV/FAQ#Pseudoscience, a part of NPOV policy that has been part of policy since 2001 in nearly the same form as today [23] does not actually have any relevance, and does not apply to articles on Parapsychology. He then attacked everyone who upheld the policy, declared intent to force changes through,[24] then leapt over to the policy page and attempted to delete the phrasing he dislikes.[25]

Here is a recent Arbitration enforcement thread about his editing of policy.

I think that Martinphi's statements in the Paranormal Request for clarification a bit below this one are also relevant. In the face of every arbitrator clearly stating that the finding of fact does not set out an explicit content ruling, but was simply an effort to understand the party's points, he continues to insist that the arbcom, in fact, made a content ruling, and that he should be able to use it to push his point of view.

Martinphi has a very bad case of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT, which makes him very frustrating to work with. The Arbcom restriction somewhat mediates that, but I don't think he has demonstrated any real improvement in the last year that would justify the restriction's removal. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 03:22, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would also suggest that he be banned from editing policy. Besides the examples from above, back in April, he specifically admitted to editing WP:CIVIL in order to better use it to attack ScienceApologist. [26] [27]. (Background, abridged: he was adding words he had seen ScienceApologist and other people he disliked using to the Civility policy as "actionable" examples of incivility. [28] [29] [30]) Between this, today's editing of WP:NPOV/FAQ (described above), and the more recent WP:NPOV incident (courtesy duplicate link), I don't think he can be trusted to edit policy. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 05:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kww

Wanted to concur that MartinPhi does not seem to have learned the lessons that the original editing restriction was intended to convey. It seems to have driven him towards behaviour that is even more damaging: the constant editing of policy pages to slowly transform them into polices that favor his views. I would fully support an extension of the current editing restriction, and I think an editing restriction on policy pages should be considered.—Kww(talk) 17:09, 8 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Pseudoscience

Party notifications

Statement by Self-ref

Specific Request for Clarification

In Category_talk:Pseudoscience we are setting about refining the applicable pages and subcategories for this pejorative categorical tag, as represented by these two threads. It would, for the purpose of this refinement, be helpful to have a clarification of the Arbcom ruling mentioned above as regards the following:

A) The Specific Treatment of the Astrology Page Within This Ruling

A1) Was it the intention of the Arbcom to explicitly specify the astrology page as an example of a "theory which has a following" AND "which is generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community"?

OR

A2) Is the characterization of "something generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community" something which must ALSO be demonstrated with citation by those with an interest in applying that category tag to the astrology page?


B) The Specific Treatment of the Astrology Category and Its Contents Within This Ruling

B1) Whatever the intention of the above, does this ruling and clarification also apply to the entire astrology category, and also to all the subcategories and pages to which this category is linked?

OR

B2) Should each category and page be separately considered unless their topical areas are identical (i.e. astrology page and category but nothing else until supported by cites)?


C) Restricted, or Unrestricted-but-Challengeable, Pseudoscience Category Tagging?

C1) Should it be a preliminary requirement, before the Pseudoscience category tag is applied, that a theory be demonstrated, through convincing citation to both: 1) have a following and 2) to be generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community?

OR

C2) Should the Pseudoscience category tag be applied to and retained on pages and categories by those who have an interest, regardless of citation or the lack thereof, until and unless challenged and removed due to a lack of substantiation?


Recommendation in General

Having read the Arbcom and become interested in lending a hand to refining the implementation of the Pseudoscience category, I have been apprised as to the force and character of its content, but without clarification on its implementation, it seems difficult to fully act on it. The problem of the changing significance and usage of the term 'science' through time is not adequately addressed by this Arbitration, nor is the differentiation being made between pseudosciencES on the one hand and pseudoscience on the other. Also, no mention is made of the fundamental differences in application of the tag to a page (such as astrology) on the one hand or to other categories (such as Category:Reincarnation research) on the other.

My preference is that this pejorative category be conservatively employed, and only after demonstrating, by citation to reliable, NPOV scientific evaluations, that it is actually warranted. It is also my impression that greater specificity is needed for direction as to how best to add it to pages as well as to categories. Further, i think that it is generally unworkable as stipulated in numbers 15, 16, 17, and 18, and that an amendment may be needed so as to strictly contain its usage to what can be convincingly supported as pseudosciencES (nouns, enterprises representing themselves falsely as sciences) rather than what may be ambiguously characterized as 'pseudoscience' (noun or adjective, confusingly and ambiguously presented).

Statement by Martinphi

Astrology is well sourced as pseudoscience, I believe.

It is my general experience with the pseudoscience category that it is often used without sourcing. The ArbCom seems to have put in place a strict standard, which is that an article with this category should be sourced as "generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community." [31] This seems to be a recognition that this category is pejorative, and needs more sourcing than usual. The pseudoscience category is not usually so sourced when used, I believe. I think it is seldom sourced to the level of generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community. I don't know about all the other stuff in this request, but making it clear how much sourcing is needed, if any, would help: that has caused a bunch of contention, and generally the opinions of editors, rather than sourcing, has determined when it is used. That is generally how categories seem to be assigned, so the contention in this case comes from confusion about what the Pseudoscience ArbCom means. Do we need a source which speaks for the scientific community before we use this category? If not, what quality of sourcing, if any, is necessary?

Related: can you give us more guidance as to what is "obvious pseudoscience?" [32] This is an appeal to the discretion of editors, and there is an extremely wide range of opinion here. I have generally said "the threshold is Time cube, and anything more credible than that needs sourcing." But I do not know if this is correct.

Personally, I don't think categories do much, so I don't care, but this does cause a lot of strife. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:02, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, can you confirm this:

The pseudoscience category is applicable anywhere that a reliable source has asserted or questioned whether the subject contains pseudoscientific elements.

What you're saying seems to be that what we need to look for is significant debate. However, in this case we would use the cat on Psychoanalysis, which is against the Pseudoscience ruling. There are very significant questions about psychoanalysis, as well as many other fields which nevertheless have a following and might be scientific to a large degree. So, I'm still a little confused. What you say seems to indicate a very significant expansion of the current use of the category. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:27, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Orangemarlin

This is a content dispute. ArbCom involvement isn't necessary, since the original decisions regarding Pseudoscience is awfully clear. Can we not waste ArbCom's time, and let them actually help the project along? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 03:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would suggest that FT2 recuse himself from this discussion. His known antipathy towards me in his well-known one-man vendetta to besmirch my reputation, and his well-known support of pseudoscientific concepts such as NLP indicates he cannot provide any valid discussion to this request. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 22:46, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Threaded discussion, including responses from FT2 and further comments by Orangemarlin and Jim62sch, moved to the talk page of the case. Daniel (talk) 13:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by jim62sch

I'm not sure what the hub-bub is all about here. There are accurate definitions of PS in dictionaries, encyclopedias, textbooks, et cetera. Seems to be a case of someone wanting to project certain beliefs that are clearly PS as being scientrific by changng the definition of science. Not likely to happen as WP needs to reflect the reality of the nonce. Ta. •Jim62sch•dissera! 20:35, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by NE2

Are we seriously arguing about whether astrology is pseudoscience? The answer is clearly no, since it doesn't even pretend to be science --NE2 00:36, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nealparr

@NE2 - Yes, astrology is a pseudoscience. It's a system that appears to have a scientific basis -- the water-based body is said to be effected by gravitational pulls like the Moon creates tides (discounted, but that's the idea) -- and it's vastly complex with diagrams and classifications and so on. At first glance, it wouldn't be surprising if one thought it was science. Also, way back when, it actually was the "science" of the day. The learned men, doctors and philosophers, in ancient times practiced astrology. If you read our own pseudoscience article, it mentions that Karl Popper (one of the guys who popularized the notion that some things only pose as science) used astrology as a sort of poster-example of pseudoscience. As such, it's well-sourced; partly because of Popper, it is often used as an example of pseudoscience. It is a really good example. --Nealparr (talk to me) 13:51, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ludwigs2

The correct approach to any article that contains questionable science is to include a properly sourced description of why the science used is questionable, so that no casual reader will be confused or mislead into thinking that it is proper and accepted. The pseudoscience label is a shortcut; it is not objectionable in and of itself, but it should never be used in place of or in the absence of an explanation of the failings of the science. My concern here (which is borne out by the way the category is used in practice by some editors) is that the label can slapped on the article without any justification, sourcing, or attempts to explain its presence, and held there through vague references to the ArbCom ruling. this practice amounts to the legitimization of prejudicial opinion, which is against wikipedia's core policies. Would we allow editors to place buddhism, or judaism, or scientology (or etc.) in a category called 'antichristian religions' without a great deal of discussion and reference to sources? even granting that there are certain religions (like satanism) that are overtly and explicitly antichristian, we would still require proper verification and consensus. so why would we allow this pejorative 'pseudoscience' category to be applied to whatever random article some random editor feels like?

Please let's bring this back in focus. the purpose of categories on wikipedia is to help readers find related information; they are not supposed to be used as a tool to denigrate article topics. Contentious categories like pseudoscience should only be used carefully, with attention to sourcing, and only as an adjunct to proper discussion in the article. Even with something as clearly pseudoscientific as Astrology, the category should be used only after it is made clear in the article that this is an appropriate label, and if that discussion is not there, the category should be immediately and unceremoniously removed. --Ludwigs2 17:23, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Scientizzle

As I indicated at Category talk:Pseudoscience, Self-ref (talk · contribs) should be encouraged to start relevant discusssions at the talk pages of individual articles on the value and accuracy of a pseudoscience categorization. Self-ref has outlined personal categorization criteria that does not jive with current ArbCom-established foundations or general consensus. As such, I would dispute any wholesale de-categorization based upon said personal criteria as I'm certain it would result in editwarring and other nonsense.

Self-ref has recently been making irresponsible large-scale changes to the categorization of pseudoscience. For example, removing Category:Phrenology from Category:Pseudoscience is manifestly ridiculous: phrenology is a classic example of pseudoscience (with important proto-science hallmarks). There has been no discussion attempted by Self-ref regarding phrenology at Talk:Phrenology or Category talk:Phrenology, which would be the appropriate places to bring this up. Even Self-ref's long-winded politicking at Category talk:Pseudoscience barely deals with phrenology...this is a wildly out-of-view location to discuss that proper categorization of phrenology.

I think it's clear that Self-ref can and should initiate discussion regarding the inclusion or exclusion of a pseudoscience category on the talk page of a subject in question. The current activity of making large-scale demands for sourcing in an under-the-radar category talk page is inefficient and unwise at best, and deliberate obfuscation at worst. I agree with the early ArbCom returns that this is a genuine content dispute that should be settled in the typical manner...so I strongly encourage Self-ref to discuss proper categorization of Subject X at Talk:Subject X. — Scientizzle 18:55, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

I think the problem is not so much that Self-ref has questioned the categorization, but that they had neither checkd the articles in question for referencing.

For instance:

SECOND CALL also on the defense of Category:Patent medicines and Category:Reiki as pseudoscience. These are not the same as homeopathy. Without such a defense these will be removed from the category Pseudoscience.-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 18:37, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Give me a break with your "second notices." Read the Arbcom ruling linked to at the top of this page. As long as RS source exists establishing that a V viewpoint exists that a topic is pseudoscience, it can and should be categorized as such. That's the ruling. You need to stop trying to enforce your own rules and start following the Arbcom's. Odd nature (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Does a reliable source exist supporting that view? If so, where? For all three of these categories??-- self-ref (nagasiva yronwode) (talk) 22:42, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I pointed out a source from the National Academy of Science saying that homeopathy was pseudoscience. self-ref's response?

Astrology and homeopathy are obviously perceived as pseudosciences. Are they really such things? I haven't yet seen good clear evidence of it..

WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. They were told about the Arbcom ruling, that didn't allow them to keep bossing around every editor of pseudoscientific topics, so they ignored it. They didn't bother to look at the articles, they wanted every single person involved to get the evidence for them, and to act on their schedules, or they would make controvbersial, disruptive actions.

The ruling is clear:

Generally considered pseudoscience: "Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience."

Self-ref was aware of this, she doesn't care, so long as it lets her continue to bully people around. I would ask for Self-ref to be chastised under the sanctions in question.

Clerk notes

  • I've improved the formatting throughout this thread. Although the adjustments to individuals' comments was minimal, if I have (inadvertently) altered the meaning of any editor's statement, please feel free to revert or tweak my tidying as necessary. Anthøny ✉ 16:45, 9 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • The issue is that a certain kind of dispute seems to exist around pseudoscience. How one draws its boundaries, and where it shades into "general dispute behavior", is a grey area, but the remedy was intended to tackle the kinds of disputes, issues, and (often the same types of) parties as are seen repeatedly in pseudoscience related disputes. The test whether a given article can have those remedies applies is basically, "are the disputes on this article of a kind that is similar in those ways to other pseudoscience-type disputes".

    Examples of "how one might tell":

    • Are there scientific views that the topic is at best unproven and at worst without plausible foundation, and also other significant views who believe in what might be folklore, traditional/alternative/naturalistic/intuitive views, who argue that despite lack of scientific plausibility or proof, it is "proven by experience over the ages" or by some other means which is broadly discounted as evidence by science, or the like?
    • Are there concerns that a scientific fringe theory is being presented as proven or plausible based on "dressing up" -- taking what scientists view as scant, non-existent, or misrepresented (or undue weight) in a scientific sense and trying to make it seem more than it is?
    • Are there similar or same parties, and similar or same themes, in the dispute, as in other pseudoscience disputes?

    I would look to those, primarily. Wording such as "category of pseudoscience" are not intended to be rigid criteria but only suggestive/indicative, not least because category membership itself is changeable.

    It was not the intention to force a decision "is this pseudoscience" on any topic, but much more "do the issues and the lines in the dispute reflect those of other Wikipedia pseudoscience disputes, such that remedies for pseudoscience may be useful to apply".

    So turning to specific questions - (A) yes astrology may well have very similar issues and lines of dispute (commonsense says). If in fact the problems it is having, mirror those that pseudoscience has had elsewhere, and this ruling may help, then it may be usefully applicable. (B) See A. (C) Don't bother tagging (or detagging) articles to get or avoid anything under any ruling. It doesn't help and it won't really affect whether the nature of the topic and its disputes share a lot in common with disputes in "pseudoscience". Category is a useful aid, not a prescriptive rule.

    FT2 (Talk | email) 17:08, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • As FT2, I see two separate questions here. The first is about categorization as pseudoscience; I feel that we have explained our view sufficiently in the prior case and editors and admins should be able to follow that ruling. The second is about how far the sanctions in that case extend. As FT2, I see this as a dispute between people holding two different viewpoints; these groups appear to be able to get into conflict on any page which might be linked, however tangentially, to pseudoscience or anything that might be called such by anyone. Thus, the scope of the ruling is wider than just those pages that can accurately be categorized "pseudoscience" and they apply to any such article upon which such a dispute between those sides takes place, IMO. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:21, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification: Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Paranormal

Involved users
Party notifications

Statement by Shoemaker's Holiday

Basically, I saw (on WP:FTN) that Finding of Fact 11 of this case, "In addition to mainstream science which generally ignores or does not consider the paranormal worthy of investigation, there is a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way...", a content decision, is being used to state that parapsychology must always be treated as a science [33]. That is an explicit, disputed content ruling, and one not supported by most non-parapsychological sources. I think that the first sentence should be vacated.

Basically, this is a milder equivalent of the Arbcom saying that Creationism or Intelligent design must be considered science, because a few professors, such as Michael Behe, support them, as far as I can tell. Yes, a few researches have been done, but they do not have the respect of the scientific community. Here, for instance, is the journal Nature's report on the closing of a parapsychological lab [34] (you can only read the opening, but it'll give you the idea of the tone. Parapsychological "research" is almost entirely published in dedicated journals. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:01, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To Newyorkbrad: Can that be made explicit, then? Because as it stands, that is not clear. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:13, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


To clarify for FT2: I'd rather the Arbcom not get involved with content, but this Finding of Fact was being treated as a ruling on content by Martinphi: For instance, here, in defending his insistence that Parapsychology should be treated as a major part of the scientific community [35] he writes: "I assume the mantle of the ArbCom because the ArbCom was very clear in its decision. I know a lot of people don't like that decision, but till they can get the ArbCom to modify it, I think it should be followed ... As to the status of Parapsychology: We talked long with the ArbCom about that very issue, explained it thoroughly, and that is what they put in their decision. Did they make a mistake? Some think so. Did they do it by accident? No way."

Hence, as Martinphi insists you did make a content ruling, a clear statement - as has been made here - that that finding of fact was not a content ruling, and cannot be used by Martinphi to insist on his preferred phrasings is all that's necessary. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 22:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC) By the way, one P.S. to FT2 - I'm not actually convinced that research within the field of parapsychology is considered at all rigourous by most scientists. Certainly, I've heard some horrible things about the statistical analysis used by the Princeton lab. Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Martinphi

It was not that content should be a certain way, but that content should not be a certain way: that the wording should not imply that if X is a scientist then ipso facto X thinks psychic experiments are no good [36]. Further, the implication was that if a person is a parapsychologist, then ipso facto that person is not part of the scientific community. That's what the wording said, and that's what I used the ArbCom for in that case. I shouldn't have even needed the ArbCom, really, but I think the ArbCom was very clear on this. I don't think it was a content decision. Rather it was a decision that parapsychology cannot be dismissed as pseudoscience a priori, nor scientists within the field as outside the halls of science merely because they are in that field. Nor can sources within the field be dismissed as unreliable merely because they are in that field. If you call that content, yeah, but no more so than other decisions of the ArbCom.

Any clarification, were any needed, should involve Bauder and the other Arbs on that case. We went into great detail about the status of parapsychology at the time. Please note that the major skeptics such as James Randi say parapsychology is a science.

I think the purpose of the decision was to say that one should not edit out of an a priori dismissal. That is where editors were coming from in editing the articles before the ArbCom, and that is what the ArbCom meant to damp down. FYI, the Parapsychology article itself is largely based on an article in Nature. We also discussed with the ArbCom the difference between the scientific core of parapsychology and the outlying pseudoscientists who claim the name.

Nature also once published an article on a parapsychologist's book called "A book for burning?", and the author later stated "Sheldrake's is not a scientific theory. Sheldrake is putting forward magic instead of science, and that can be condemned, in exactly the language that the Pope used to condemn Galileo, and for the same reasons: it is heresy." ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Finding 3:

Yes, NYB I interpret that [37] to be the ArbCom saying (overall in the decision): don't dismiss it, but don't eliminate criticism either. Is that a fair interpretation? I don't see the tension in the Cake finding, though. Can you make that clearer? I think the title says it- there are different aspects:

1. mainstream science which generally ignores or does not consider the paranormal worthy of investigation

2. there is a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way

3. [there are] popular culture concepts which have a following either in historical or contemporary popular culture, but are not taken seriously or investigated even by parapsychology.

4. [frosting] A fourth phenomenon is skeptical groups and individuals devoted to debunking.

This is, in fact, a direct outcome of our discussions with the ArbCom.

If you add in finding 3, I interpret it to mean:

Parapsychology engages in scientific research (is a science) but is also very controversial. I interpret this to be broader than stated, it's controversial in many ways, and criticized on many points. So don't eliminate criticism just because the scientific field which covers the subject has a consensus that psi phenomena exist.

And come on, NYB: a mere summary of the parties positions? No, it can't be that, as it is a finding of fact. That is a really novel way of interpreting a finding of fact, and indicates there is something of which I'm unaware. Are findings of fact often summaries of what one side of the dispute thinks, without including the other side, and not qualified to make it clear that this is a finding of fact about what the parties believe? ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I take it from Fred Bauder's statement below that my deductions are correct: the Three layer cake with frosting finding is not merely a statement of what the parties believe. It is a statement of the "objective situation."

and

Three layer cake with frosting is not intended to determine what content to put in an article, that is, to resolve content disputes. It is merely a statement of the objective situation which undergirds the process by which the actual content of articles are written.

The reason for such a finding would be to lay the basis for the rest of the ArbCom. It is also meant to be used by editors as a groundwork of fact for building articles, but it is not meant to be interpreted to any great degree beyond what it specifically says.

To the extent that it forms a framework, it does have some bearing on the content of articles, since the objective situation always has a bearing on content.

I interpret it this way because if findings of fact and principle have no bearing on the way in which we edit articles, then the entire ArbCom on the Paranormal said nothing, as it is all Principles and Findings of Fact, nothing else. If the ArbCom on the paranormal is relevant at all, it seems to me that it is relevant in the way I have laid out here. Findings 3 [38] and 11 [39] were relevant in the instance where I used 11 [40] (either would have sufficed).

As a general rule, there are many permutations of content which could be in an article, but they should not conflict with the ArbCom's principles and findings of fact. This is how ArbComs, in my experience, are always interpreted.

Please correct me if I am wrong. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:51, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


You stated "the Three layer cake with frosting finding is not merely a statement of what the parties believe. It is a statement of the 'objective situation' [...] Three layer cake with frosting is not intended to determine what content to put in an article [...] It is merely a statement of the objective situation which undergirds the process by which the actual content of articles are written."
If I understand you right, you're saying that you interpret it to be a description of the objective situation (that such views exist), and some detail how they inter-relate, what significance each has, and their foundations, and as an arbcom-stated description, that it should thus underpin how the article is written. If so (which I may have misunderstood) then you might have misinterpreted. It was intended to outline broad features of the background for those reviewing the dispute and interpreting the basis of the decision. It does not mean in any way that arbitrators exhaustively reviewed the topic and concluded as editors what due weight each view should be given, and should not be used for that purpose. I've explained more below. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:11, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I interpret the Paranormal ArbCom to mean that, for example, an article should not say "Scientists discount the existence of any type of Extra-sensory perception" (indicating all scientists discount it). That indicates that if X is a scientist, X is not a parapsychologist (who believes the general consensus of the field). In other words, parapsychologists are not scientists. That is the kind of thing I use the ArbCom ruling for.
Thus, yes, it has relevance for content. All ArbCom decisions have some connection to content, for instance the discussion below about the pseudoscience category. The category is content.
No, due weight is not covered directly by the Paranormal ArbCom. But it does cover whether parapsychology can be summarily dismissed as pseudoscience. It does have great relevance to content in terms of whether we use the word "purported" when referring to psychics, instead of treating a psychic as a "cultural artifact." It does have relevance to content when we use "framing" links such as Paranormal in the leads of articles.
It indicates very clearly that parapsychology does do some serious scientific study (leaving aside any discussion of results). Thus, I think it is not too much of a stretch to think that it indicates that we should not throw out all peer-reviewed sources within the field as unreliable merely because they are within the field. They might be unreliable or they might be reliable, but the fact that they are written/reviewed by parapsychologists does not make them unreliable ipso facto.
The decision does not determine weight, or the general content of articles. But it does have some bearing on them.
The paranormal ArbCom obviously made decisions which have real implications for content, as noted above with the word "purported." I think we need to be very careful not to take it as prescriptive as to which POVs are allowed in articles, or the WEIGHT given those POVs.
Yet, at the same time, if we do not summarily dismiss parapsychological sources as unreliable, that will have a bearing on WEIGHT. I do not think that the decision can be entirely separated from content.
You say "Without determining how the content issue should read, some fairly obvious facts might help to show by way of example how multiple views on the "cake" can be fitted together"
Well, that's content. Your "obvious facts" are actually in great dispute when you say "A minor branch of science, known as "parapsychology", attempts to study psychic matters on a scientific basis." I think this ArbCom needs to be conservatively interpreted and not abused, but it does have relevance to content, and weight, as with any set of principles or facts.

I think we either need to throw out this ArbCom, or admit that its principles and findings of fact will have real implications for writing articles, that is to say, content. It does not determine content strictly speaking, but it sets parameters and gives general guidance. As in the case of Adequate framing, it was obviously originally intended to: "It should not be necessary in the case of an adequately framed article to add more." ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:50, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Current understanding:

The Paranormal ArbCom is meant to give guidance as to when editors are being disruptive or POV pushing. It sets some basic parameters which are not restrictive in terms of article intellectual content. But they do show when an editor is POV pushing or being disruptive.

Example:

"3) Parapsychology has an ambiguous status, engaging in scientific research, but strongly criticized for lack of rigor."[41]

Thus, if an editor denies there is controversy surrounding parapsychology, or attempts to say that the issue of its status or results is decided, that editor is POV pushing. Similarly, if an editor tries to assert that a parapsychologist cannot be a scientist, or that parapsychology as a whole is nothing but pseudoscience, that editor is POV pushing.

Example:

"6.2) Language in the introduction of an article may serve to frame the subject thus defining the epistemological status. Examples include "mythical", "fictional", "a belief", and in the present case "paranormal", "psychic", "new age", "occult", "channeling", or "parapsychological researcher". "UFO", "Bigfoot", "Yeti", "alien abduction", and "crop circle" serve the same function. It should not be necessary in the case of an adequately framed article to add more, for example to describe Jeane Dixon as a psychic who appeared on TV says it all. "Purported psychic" or "self-described psychic" adds nothing."[42]

If an editor of an article which adequately frames and presents differing prominent views in its text is nevertheless insisting that doubt needs to be cast on the subject through means similar to those described by the ArbCom, that editor is POV pushing. Just as, in the opposite case an editor is POV pushing who inserts "Jeane Dixon is known for her amazing psychic powers." ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:36, 12 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nealparr

Regarding the article that Shoemaker referenced in Nature reporting on the closing of a parapsychological lab, it's interesting that he used it because that article actually covers three different views on parapsychology in much the same way that Fred mentioned below when he said "Our articles can legitimately contain all four points of view with appropriate sourcing and handling of each." The author of the article mentions three different views: 1) The view of Chris French, a skeptic and anomalistic psychologist, that such work is worth pursuing, 2) The view of Robert Park, a physicist at Princeton, that such work is "unscientific", and 3) The view of William Happer, another physicist at Princeton, (described as the "middle ground"), that it's within science but a waste of time. The full-text I posted here [43] (though technically I probably wasn't supposed to). This is directly a "viewpoint" question, and no better article demonstrates this than the one Shoemaker referenced because that article, in the respected Nature, treats it as a question rather than an answer, and again presents three different views on the matter. The question, quoted from the article, is: "But the closure highlights a long-running question: how permissive should science be of research that doesn't fit a standard theoretical framework, if the methods used are scientific?" The question both legitimizes the methods as scientific, even as it's questioning the research, but note it posed as a question rather than answer.

On a side-note, I never saw the ArbCom ruling as a definitive directive on content either. It always read as principles to consider. If you read the actual parapsychology article (at least last I checked), it does a good job of presenting all the various views on the topic. Probably not perfect, but definitely not a result of a definitive directive from the ArbCom to write the article a certain way. Several of us bumped heads in writing that article and taking it to FA status, and I don't think the ArbCom ruling had much to do with the final result. Rather it was following the sources. --Nealparr (talk to me) 06:04, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MastCell

Pursuant to this case, the authority of ArbCom has been used as a bludgeon in content disputes (other examples exist, but I'm too lazy to dig them up at present). It would be great if that could stop. A simple reaffirmation that ArbCom does not settle content disputes, and an injunction to sort out these issues through the usual process without recourse to name-dropping, would be enough. MastCell Talk 07:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Ludwigs2 (uninvolved; commentary)

The root of this problem - and related problems in other fringe-type articles - is that it effectively boils down to efforts by wikipedia editors (on all sides) to legislate who can and cannot be considered a scientist. This is not something the 'scientific community' (to the extent that such a thing even exists; that's really a mindless abstraction of a much more complex social structure) ever does on its own, and I'm not sure why it has become such an issue on Wikipedia. Individual scientists may indulge in disparaging criticism of others, yes, and there are practical barriers to membership (academic degrees, access to research funding and equipment, membership in academic associations, etc.) but as a whole scientists accept and reject other scientists and their work mainly on the work's functional and pragmatic merits. if some group of parapsychologists meet basic membership requirements and follows reasonable and rigorous methodological practices, no academic scientist could meaningfully say that these parapsychologists were not scientists or that they were not engaged in scientific research. they might call them idiots, and might suggest that they are wasting time, money, and careers on vapid pusuits, but the fact is that one can do good research on stupid topics, so long as one is willing to admit when it fails; standing as a scientist is based on the quality of the research. Believe me, if these parapsychologists somehow managed to produce some methodologically sound, unambiguous, reproducible result, there isn't a scientist in the world who wouldn't hail them as geniuses; their marginal state is due to the fact that they can't produce such results, and has little if nothing to do with the topic they study.

frankly, it's not our place to try to determine what is and isn't (or who is and isn't) scientific. if there's a group of people who want to say they form "a scientific discipline of parapsychology which studies psychic phenomena in a serious scientific way", then that's ok. We should report that, along with reporting their successes, failures, and any criticisms they've generated. --Ludwigs2 18:53, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Clerk Notes

Arbitrator Comments

  • I read the "three layer cake with frosting" finding as a statement or summary of background information or the parties' positions rather than anything more. There is also some tension between the sentences of the quoted "three layer cake with frosting" finding, as well as between this finding and finding 3 in the same case, which states that "parapsychology has an ambiguous status, engaging in scientific research, but strongly criticized for lack of rigor." I do not believe that any of these observations were intended to control the outcome of any content disputes. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2008 (UTC) Addendum and response to Martinphi By "the parties" I should have been more clear that I mean parties to the overall (on-wiki and real-world) debate surrounding these issues, not just the parties to the arbitration case. I see that Fred Bauder has commented immediately below; he wrote the decision, as I'm sure you recall, so his comments are probably the most reliable guide to what it was intended to mean. Newyorkbrad (talk) 19:10, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • We do not determine content disputes. Three layer cake with frosting is simply a restatement of the objective situation: the attitude of the mainstream scientific community; the small faction of the scientific community that attempts to study parapsychology using scientific methods; parapsychology as popular culture; and skeptics. Our articles can legitimately contain all four points of view with appropriate sourcing and handling of each. Fred Talk 01:37, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The intent of most ArbCom cases is to assist in settling content disputes that are not being resolved because user conduct issues make Wikipedia's usual dispute resolution processes not work. Frequently, ArbCom has to examine the underlying content dispute to understand why articles on a particular topic have ongoing content disputes. In some of these cases, the Committee makes broad observations in our finding of fact that explain the nature of the dispute, and recognize that more content disputes are likely to occur due to underlying issues that are beyond the control of Wikipedia to solve. Articles related ethnic conflicts and articles on pseudoscience (or fringe science) are examples of two topics with ongoing disputes that are not going to solved in short order by following the usual Wikipedia dispute resolution process.
  • In these instances, our ruling does not intend to set in stone any particular set of content facts, but instead the Committee offers a reasonable interpretation of how the issue can be framed based on core Wikipedia polices, in particular Neutral point of view. In these cases, our rulings should be seen as a starting place for sorting out ongoing content issues. It is not our intension for our ruling to mandate a particular point of view be included, or establish the weight that should be given to a point of view. Rather, it is a good faith attempt by Wikipedian's that are knowledgeable about content policy to frame the issues in a way that works with the particular articles in question in the particular dispute that we are addressing. Frequently, but not always, the decision can be reasonable way to settle similar content disputes. In future disputes, uninvolved experienced users might be aided in resolving the dispute by reviewing previous case rulings since they may explain the underlaying dispute. But, our past rulings should not replace new good faith attempts by uninvolved users to sort out a new disputes in different ways. And new or ongoing problematic user conduct that were not resolved in a previous case can addressed through the normal dispute processes or through case sanctions (if appropriate).
  • Specific to this case: The ruling frames the underlying issue (the vastly different views of different groups of people on the topic.) in a manner that is compatible with writing an article on the topic using Wikipedia's core policies as a guide. It remains up to editors to apply the policies to the particular content of a particular article. In this instance, since the involved users have given their input on the topic many times before, it might be helpful for them to step back and let other users give their views. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:17, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not a lot to add to my colleagues words. This case seems to be asking for a content finding, which I would rather not go into. The original decision should not be sought to be used as a finding of content. It was clearly intended far more, as a part of describing the Wikipedia dispute being addressed, and identifying the significant views and in the field that underpinned the dispute. Either way it is not prescriptive in any way of "how we should see the topic" (although it might be a fair description of the views which were being argued over).

    Sometimes the quickest way to resolve an NPOV dispute is to show how different views might be better accomodated with reasonable due weight. Without determining how the content issue should read, some fairly obvious facts might help to show by way of example how multiple views on the "cake" can be fitted together:

    "Psychic" matters are studied both with scientific rigor, and without it, as well as being the subject of beliefs that do not have scientific backing. Mainstream science tends to neither study, nor express interest in psychic matters. This is for various reasons based on professional culture, reputation, publication, falsifiability, conservatism, and past history of the field. A minor branch of science, known as "parapsychology", attempts to study psychic matters on a scientific basis, however the topic is generally treated as controversial and marginal by scientists outside its own field. Research outside the scientific world is usually not considered to meet the basis of formality needed to scientifically prove any given result, although some matters have been studied now and then, and skeptics ("debunkers") are often given credence in demonstrating the need for rigorous evidence-based testing.

    I don't say that is perfect, and it could surely be improved, but it may (if cited) give an indication of how the subject might give a balanced view of the main aspects and each layer of the "cake". It seems my colleagues have covered the dispute issues and principles; I feel it may just help to give an example "how the intro might be done", even though this can in no way be considered part of a "decision" on the dispute. FT2 (Talk | email) 17:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification: editing the Wikipedia:Arbitration policy

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

  • This request is of relevance to every editor.

Statement by Happy-melon

The recent concerns over the provisions of, and adherence to, the Arbitration Policy, discussed at length in the recent Request for Comment, has posed significant questions over the how the Policy and Committee have functioned and how they could be improved. Resolution of what appear to be substantive issues in some cases has been hampered by confusion over how, if at all, the Arbitration Policy can be modified or amended. The only ArbCom statement on the matter of which I am aware is from March 2005, by then-Committee member Grunt, to indicate that "Jimbo Wales has also suggested that Arbitraton Policy is not open to amendment by the community". No evidence is given to support this statement, which nonetheless leaves it open to question exactly who is eligible to amend the policy, and by what method. This unresolved issue had not been a problem for most of the intervening three and a half years because there had been no serious consideration of amendments to the policy. Such modification has now been suggested and appears to have a measure of community support thereto, so it is now necessary to resolve the issue of how modifications to the policy should be enacted. The clarification I am requesting from the Committee, therefore, is an official answer to the question "to what extent, and subject to what restrictions, is the Arbitration policy open to amendment or modification by the community; and by what method should such changes be enacted?". Happy‑melon 16:09, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Barberio

I think it may be unwise to leave the question of "how may the Arbitration Committee's ruling policy" be amended in the hands of the Arbitration Committee it's self. --Barberio (talk) 18:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify my point, the Arbitration Committee certainly have input to the process, and provide a point of view and knowledge of the system that others might not have. And as such they were involved in the current process being used to put up policy, having been invited to take part in the RfC. But it would not be healthy for them to be the sole owners of the Arbitration Policy. --Barberio (talk) 21:44, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note, if the Arbitration Committee decided to alter Arbitration Policy by themselves to add some of the suggested policy changes to it, then I wouldn't object to removing them from the vote. --Barberio (talk) 22:30, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Carcharoth

The first part of the statement is largely a repost of what I posted at the RfC here. The second and third parts are new comments and updates.

(1) Changes to Arbitration policy
repost from 1 July 2008
Extended content
Wikipedia:Arbitration policy is not clear on how the policy should be changed. To quote from the messagebox:

"This page documents an official policy on the English Wikipedia. More so than other policies it should not be edited without considerable forethought and consensus among Committee members."

In the lead section we have:

"These policies are now fully adopted, but subject to amendment. [...] It has been indicated elsewhere (see e.g. the Arbitration policy ratification vote) that the "Arbitration Policy may be tweaked as the Committee gains experience and learns better ways of doing things". Jimbo Wales has also suggested that the policy is not subject to amendment by the community [citation needed] ."

The 'citation needed' tag has been on that page since November 2007. There have also been (very rare) edit wars on this policy page, where the arbitration committee have made clear that they are the ones that decide what the page says (see this one from September 2006: [44], [45], [46], [47], [48]). The policy has also been edited by Wikimedia Foundation officials and board members, such as here, and by arbitration committee members and clerks, as here and here and here and here. At the end of the arbitration policy page, we have the following, under the header of "Unresolved issues":

"Deliberately left unspecified at this time. See the sub-pages for discussion: Election of Arbitrators [and] Procedure for changing this policy"

The subpage Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Procedure for changing this policy says:

"Arbitration policy is the jurisdiction of Jimbo Wales and the Arbitration Committee..."

The sub-subpage Wikipedia:Arbitration policy/Procedure for changing this policy/Old proposal also exists.

Given the above, in the context of this request for comment (RfC), more interaction between the community and the arbitration committee should take place, such as at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration policy (see also the archives of that talk page), and that any conclusions from this RfC should be presented at that talk page and a response requested from the arbitration committee and Jimbo Wales. The policy should also be updated to facilitate any future proposals to changes in the arbitration policy, and both the community and the arbitration committee should follow that page and its talk page more closely. It may also be beneficial to retain a core policy that is unchanging, but to allow more room for reform outside of that core policy.

(2) Changes made since July 2008
  • (a) The "citation needed" bit (the whole sentence) got removed on 10 July 2008 with this edit. It has not been re-added since (nearly three months). What this means is unclear.
  • (b) A formal change was made to the arbitration policy with this edit (29 July 2008). The diff quoted in support of that (it's in the edit summary of one of the intermediate revisions in the diff I provided) is here. I think the full discussion being referred to is the one here.
(3) Suggestions going forward

I think the history given above, and the examples of two changes made (one by an uncontested edit, and the other by a formal discussion) may help indicate what could be done here to clarify this matter, or at least provide the arbitrators with concrete examples to discuss. Responding to Barberio, I think working with the Arbitration Committee over how the policy can be amended or changed would be better than taking it out of their hands entirely - they would, after all, be among those likely to be affected by any changes, and are the one that would have to live and work with any changes.

- Carcharoth (talk) 20:40, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some further comments:
  • About advertising: during the RfC and proposals process, advertising was sufficient to draw a large number of people. It should be possible to list the means of advertising used (it is important to keep a record of where the RfC was advertised - is such a record available?) and to do a brief analysis of the "hundreds" of people responding to see if you obtained a balanced cross-section of the community. As an aside, more advertising should have been done on the policy page and it's talk page - I see one note was left there on 10 August 2008. I do think that incorporating votes on such changes into the ArbCom elections is a logical step, and would expose the proposed changes to a large audience and potential mandate, but it should be done with care and not made too complicated.
  • Whether an edit sticks. Brad (over at the election policy change subpage) said: "The designation that the Arbitration Policy is not subject to editing like other policies means that any editor should not simply click the "edit this page" button and change the policy, and assume if the edit sticks, then the policy has been changed." I'd like to point out again that this is exactly what appears to have happened:
  • The claim that the policy is not subject to amendment by the community was added on 29 March 2005 (User:Grunt).
  • The claim was tagged with "citation need" in 20 November 2007 (User:Chillum).
  • The tag remained for just under 8 months until it and the associated sentence were removed on 10 July 2008 (User:Karibou).
  • In summary, the sentence in question ("Jimbo Wales has also suggested that the policy is not subject to amendment by the community") appeared in March 2005, was formally contested with a 'citation needed' tag in November 2007 (a year and eight months later), and was removed in July 2008 (a further eight months later).
So how does this tally with Brad's comment that people should not assume that because the edits have stuck, that the policy has been changed? Is there some master document somewhere that is the real policy? My view is that those with an interest in the policy should have it watchlisted and should contest such changes as needed. Sometimes an edit going uncontested does speak volumes, but there is no way of knowing how many people (including arbitrators) silently reviewed the edit and decided not to revert the citation needed tag or the eventual removal in July 2008. Does anyone contest the removal of that sentence? Just letting an edit go uncontested and then (possibly) objecting to the change months later, while it may be necessary, does seem to indicate that the policy is not as closely watched as might be thought. Carcharoth (talk) 08:01, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Martinphi

I didn't know that this RfC could actually change policy. RfCs are for venting, or for taking to ArbCom. It was not made clear at the start of the RfC that it would lead to a vote on proposals which would then automatically become policy. Perhaps the RfC was announced -I think it may have been- the same way as the recent anouncment of possible changes to the RfA process. But if it was, people don't take RfCs seriously, and no mention was made specifically at the start of the RfC that the results of the RfC would be made policy. It said "This RFC will provide an opportunity for the Community to interact in a central discussion, to help shape the future of the Committee, and for how it would and could best serve the Wikipedia community." No mention of the way that "help" would be provided. The RfC was not well attended for a change of this magnitude. I think this process should start over with a much clearer statement, if indeed it is the community prerogative to change ArbCom policy, which it might be. One way or the other, there was not sufficient publicity that a tiny clique of editors was proposing policy. Nor was there warning that their proposals -which the wider community did not participate in- would be presented to the wider community without the community being invited to change the proposals (if indeed it can be said to have now been presented to the wider community). It looks to me that fewer than a hundred people participated. In short, this is far from a decent way of making policy changes. It was not properly done and should be called off and redone. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 22:33, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reply to Shoemaker below:

Two things: first, it has to look like more than an RfC for venting about the ArbCom- In fact, don't even call it an RfC, that means "just venting." Call it "Community forum to formulate changes to ArbCom policy" or something. Second, advertise it well- I just talked to another regular editor, and asked if they'd even known about it. They didn't. The basic reason people didn't know what was going on is that it was an RfC, which means "lots of noise and nothing happens." You have noted this yourself, if I recall, as have many others. There was no indication in the Nutshell or near the top of the page that this would actually change policy, nor that policy would be voted on. That's what seems to have happened. ——Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:35, 29 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by User:Shoemaker's Holiday

The RFC had the input of hundreds of users. I would like to know what level of interaction Martinphi considers necessary to change policy? Shoemaker's Holiday (talk) 23:13, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unusually-Short Statement by Alecmconroy

  • As a rule, Wikipedia's policies are decided by consensus.
  • While the board (and its representatives) may supersede consensus through explicit declaration, there's no evidence they have chosen to do so in this case.
  • Arbcom cannot alter policy in general, and Arbcom deciding Arbcom policy would be particularly naughty.
  • But, the Arbs are some of our most respected members, so we definitely want their opinions, albeit in a non-official capacity.
  • And, the Arbs seem to understand that and have been offering their personal opinions-- so Huzzahs all round! :)
--Alecmconroy (talk) 17:28, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Response to Fred:
The wiki process works for all our other policies, it will work fine for our arbcom policies too. As a general rule, we generate consensus directly-- when a content dispute crops up, we generate consensus-- we don't vote to elect a subset of the editors who then vote amongst themselves and thereby decide how to edit an article.
The even bigger problem with electing arbs based on their policy views is that (officially) arbs don't pick the policies. The wiki-process, through consensus, decides the policies.
So electing an arb based on their preferred policies is a little like hiring a baseball umpire based on his opinion of the capital gains tax. Sure you can use that criterion if you want to. But at the end of the day, a baseball umpire still doesn't get to dictate the capital gains tax rate. So too is it with arbcom and policies.
Now, if you believe Arbcom should just sit down and write out our policies for us then that's one thing.
But for the rest of us, if you believe that Arbitration is a step in dispute resolution, but not a step in policy formation-- then you have a quandary. Electing arbs who share your point of view won't result in generating a policy-- because any arbs who share your point of view will, ipso facto, decline to dictate policies. --Alecmconroy (talk) 02:54, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Fred Bauder

The procedures followed by the arbitration committee were initially established by the arbitration committee itself. As the work has progressed and experience was obtained there were modifications and refinements. My thought is that those who favor change in arbitration policy should elect arbitrators who advocate the changes they favor. Or, rather than concentrate on details, elect users you trust. Fred Talk 01:46, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SirFozzie

The problem with that three years is an excessively long time, so long that individual arbitrators who were generally lauded for their view, burnt out, and did silly things like suggesting that articles on living people be redirected to Clown. SirFozzie (talk) 02:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other user

Clerk notes

Arbitrator views and discussion

  • For my personal view on this, please see Wikipedia talk:Arbitration_Committee Elections December 2008/Policy Changes#A view from Newyorkbrad. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • My comment is in the Wikipedia talk:Arbitration_Committee Elections December 2008/Policy Changes#A view from Newyorkbrad thread. FloNight♥♥♥ 14:57, 30 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not intending to comment on the substance of proposed changes but on the status of the page. It is a difficult question whether the Arbitration policy constitutes the standing policy of the Arbitration committee (in which case only arbitrators can make substantive changes), or whether it constitutes a special policy governing and controlling the Arbitration committee (in which case there is some community input in setting it). In reality and in history it is an uncomfortable mixture of the two, which has not caused a problem in the past because the committee and the community have largely been in step on the major issues. A long term project might be to identify which sections are the 'standing orders' of the committee which we can change to help us work better, and which are the 'constitution' which needs outside input and oversight. Sam Blacketer (talk) 09:34, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am with Sam on this, though I note that it would only make sense if the Arbitrators were a major part of such a project - and we are generally swamped by the other stuff, so it would have to be driven quite strongly to make it work. James F. (talk) 10:43, 5 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
source: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration&oldid=245341770

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