Winged Blades of Godric (talk | contribs) →Suzukake Nanchara: closing: Endorsed with many finer points |
Winged Blades of Godric (talk | contribs) →Suzukake Nanchara (closed): A necessary addition.... |
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*There is clear consensus over here that those who participated in the original RM wished to shorten the title and hence the ''move'' from the-then name was good-enough. |
*There is clear consensus over here that those who participated in the original RM wished to shorten the title and hence the ''move'' from the-then name was good-enough. |
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*There also appears to be an unanimous consensus that the closure was severely deficient in rationale and thus, the {{U|Usernamekiran|closer of the RM}} is ''cautioned'' to be more judicious and thoughtful, whilst closing any contentious RM in future. |
*There also appears to be an unanimous consensus that the closure was severely deficient in rationale and thus, the {{U|Usernamekiran|closer of the RM}} is ''cautioned'' to be more judicious and thoughtful, whilst closing any contentious RM in future. |
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*And, finally, a new RM may be immediately initiated to discuss other alternative-titles, since there is considerable doubt that the current title is the best target. |
*And, finally, a new RM may be immediately initiated to discuss other alternative-titles, since there is considerable doubt that the current title is the best target. |
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*The {{U|Curly Turkey|initiator of the move-review}} is also advised to mandatorily inform the RM closer about the move-review, in any future case, something which was not followed here and further to be prudential enough to avoid (potential) misquoting of other editors.[[User:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style= "color:green">~ ''Winged Blades''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:Winged Blades of Godric|<span style= "color:green">Godric</span>]]</sup> 16:30, 22 March 2018 (UTC) <!--*--> |
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| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]] of the page above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
| style="text-align:center;" | ''The following is an archived debate of the [[Wikipedia:Move review|move review]] of the page above. <span style="color:red;">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span>'' |
Revision as of 05:32, 23 March 2018
2018 March
Suzukake Nanchara (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Closed with the rationale "per WP:COMMONNAME", though a reading of the discussion shows (a) WP:COMMONNAME is an invalid rationale, despite being brought up by several early commenters (some of whom later recognized this fact), and (b) there was no consensus on what name the article should be moved to—there were several proposals, and several supporters of a move per se were opposed to "Suzukake Nanchara".
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Jungang Line
Discussion still ongoing, and no consensus had yet been reached - which should mean the page stays where it is (long-standing name) until an actual consensus is reached. 2Q (talk) 20:43, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
User:Paine Ellsworth closed ongoing discussion, and the result is unfair. The result must be no consensus under the present state . User:Paine Ellsworth is not an uninvolved editor per [1]. WP:Requested moves#Closing instructions was not followed. Sawol (talk) 12:18, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Ref: discussion on my talk page. Yes, I have closed similar debates; however, if closing similar debates makes editors "involved", then we might soon run out of people to close debates. I remain objective on the subject of "proper names" vs. "common nouns" because I see the goods and bads of both sides. These debates have been decided in favor of lower casing "Line" based upon usage in reliable English sources, as well as AT policy, MOS guideline and naming conventions. The consensus of the community overrides any lack of local consensus. Also, I try to follow closing instructions to the letter. For example, those instructions for relisting, which link to the WP:RM page and relisting section. There it states that when a debate has been relisted it can be closed at any time when resolution is reached – there is no required length of time to wait before closing a relisted discussion. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 20:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- "can be closed at any time when resolution is reached" - which there hasn't been.
- Something everyone's been ignoring is that there is little in English on Korea's railways, and what there is, will contradict itself sometimes even in the same article (see last paragraph). So... look at other countries for precedent. Japanese railway line names in English material invariably capitalise the "Line", as they are proper names, like "XYZ Street". News articles on CBC, Global News, etc., on Vancouver's SkyTrain lines - the Canada Line, Millenium Line, Expo Line, and Evergreen Line - always capitalise the "Line", as they are proper names. Other named lines in the US like the Southern Pacific/Union Pacific Coast Line - always capitalised. Chicago's elevated lines, e.g. Pink Line and Red Line, etc - always capitalised. All of these are easy to find with quick Google searches... and prove that, contrary to what the de-capitalisers are trying to say, these are indeed proper names, just like "Trans-Canada Highway" or "Channel Tunnel" are, and so should be capitalised. 2Q (talk) 21:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- If resolution had not been reached, the debate would not have been closed. The resolution was to move the page per community consensus. Your argument is a rehash of the RM rather than a review of the close itself. I was as clear as possible in my close rationale, as I've learned to be over time. Please state what it is about the close itself that you feel does not adhere to WP:RM and closing instructions. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 22:46, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Overturn (to no consensus). NB this DRV !vote is in line with my RM contribution. I don't read a consensus in that discussion, and certainly not one to be called by an NAC-er. The cited WP:NCCAPS has always had conflict with proper names, and pushing the unclear proper name conventions into Korean, I think is a bit much for this close. User:2Q tended to bludgeoning in the discussion, which didn't help either side, but when I remove all his posts, there are several others opposing and not properly answered, though I guess that is because the proponents were being bludgeoned by 2Q? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I noted in the close that there was no general agreement (consensus) in the discussion, and that the community consensuses of the AT policy, the MOS guideline and the naming convention were strong among the support rationales. Instead of continuing to argue the merits of the RM, isn't this a place to argue the merits of the close itself? What is it about my close that moves you to want to overturn it? Paine Ellsworth put'r there 22:58, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- I think the close is a tad over-ambitious in reading the rough consensus, leaning to WP:Supervote. Over-ambitious because a casual reading doesn't confidently align with your decision. Even if an admin, that close is quite a stretch. Citing policy or guidelines is not OK to overrule discussion as the guidelines applicability were question. I think many admins might have closed another way, which makes it unsuitable for Non Admin Close (WP:NAC). A "Relist" might be a good idea, relist the discussion, ping all the previous participants, and ban User:2Q from further participation in the relisted discussion. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- I noted in the close that there was no general agreement (consensus) in the discussion, and that the community consensuses of the AT policy, the MOS guideline and the naming convention were strong among the support rationales. Instead of continuing to argue the merits of the RM, isn't this a place to argue the merits of the close itself? What is it about my close that moves you to want to overturn it? Paine Ellsworth put'r there 22:58, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
- Endorse I feel that a number of editors participating in this discussion may need to WP:DISENGAGE. This was a difficult close. There was clearly a fairly even split on local consensus with editors both for and against presenting policy/guidelines-based and source-based arguments whilst also slipping into ad hominem comments. In this case, there was discretion for the closer to go with "no consensus" or to look at community consensus on this issue. Whether a true community consensus on this specific issue exists is debatable but there is definitely a progression evident toward naming as per this move. The closer should be accorded the benefit of WP:AGF and, in those circumstances, I think the close in reliance upon community consensus in the absence of local consensus was within discretion even if I may not have closed it as such. Shadow007 (talk) 02:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Shadow007, you feel a number of editors participating in this discussion may need to WP:DISENGAGE. I feel that number is precisely one. I've suggested relisting the discussion, asking that one editor to disengage, so that the other editors can advance their discussion. What do you think of that? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- @SmokeyJoe: I am not going to name or single out particular editors nor suggest who among those making ad hominem comments was worse than others. At the end of the day, Wikipedia relies upon self-regulation to a large degree. In !voting on this move review I considered whether a relist would have been more appropriate. I noted that there was only one actual !vote in the third listing period (yours - which did produce significant comment/debate underneath it) so felt that sufficient time had been allowed for all interested editors to put forward a view. That said, if it is relisted, I would urge all editors to (1) take a deep breath; and (2) think about whether their continued participation is helpful and either moderate their tone or WP:DISENGAGE. Shadow007 (talk) 04:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Shadow007, you feel a number of editors participating in this discussion may need to WP:DISENGAGE. I feel that number is precisely one. I've suggested relisting the discussion, asking that one editor to disengage, so that the other editors can advance their discussion. What do you think of that? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus (involved editor). Apologies for this big block of text. I will try to frame the reasons for this as neutrally as possible, however.
- The closing comments spoke directly to the applicability of the close to other similar pages. This discussion is a poor choice for setting a precedent for similar moves at other pages, because the closer recognizes that the discussion itself did not reach consensus in favor of a move: "see no general agreement here." In fact, it was noted at the beginning of the request that there would be more visible places to engage in such a discussion, such as Talk:Gyeongbu Line.
- Both those supporting and opposing the move request cited policy, but the closer stated that policy was on the side of those supporting the request ("supporters have the community consensuses in the style guideline, naming convention and AT policy"). However:
- Most of the supporters cited WP:MOSCAPS, which states: "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is conventionally capitalized; only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia." Those opposing the move did not dispute this community guideline; rather, evidence was presented that attempted to show that "Jungang Line," like other lines and stations in Korea and Japan, meets this standard.
- WP:CONSISTENCY was cited, but at this point Wikipedia does consistently capitalize the names of lines and stations in Korea and Japan, for linguistic reasons brought up over the course of the request. This is even enshrined in some guidelines, such as WP:MOS-JP#Train and subway stations (a guideline that did not come up in the discussion; yet the close seeks to extend to articles under the scope of that guideline).
- I reread the discussion to be sure, but the only evidence of actual capitalization in real-world usage that was presented by those supporting the move was a single link by Dicklyon. There was basically nothing but assertion to indicate that the lowercase title was more in line with the evidence from reliable sources required by the naming conventions.
- One of the four editors who made support !votes said the support was conditional: "as long as it's not part of a proper noun." This editor did not reply to subsequent feedback on whether or not the article's subject is indeed a proper name.
- "No consensus" defaults to not moving a page because there is an assumption that it is preferable to retain the status quo rather than move against it. The discussion can be reinitiated in the future with new evidence, if necessary. Changing the status quo as a result of a no-consensus close invites the initiation of divisive move requests. I would question this in the case of any close, but particularly when the close is NAC. Dekimasuよ! 05:34, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Endorse. The !votes may have been split, but viewed through the lens of policy and community consensus in previous RMs, there is a clear consensus, as the closer intimated. In particular, it was shown that there are lots of sources which don't upper case it, so per the definition in WP:NCCAPS, it is not a proper noun and should be downcased. — Amakuru (talk) 17:47, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Sorry, but as I wrote above, I re-read the discussion twice specifically to look for whether there was any evidence of sources that don't uppercase it and only found one link to one site (which it was noted is internally inconsistent, capitalizing station names and decapping mountain ranges). Can you point out where the "lots of sources" are? Dekimasuよ! 18:03, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- This isn't the place to rehash the RM of course, but having not participated in it (and not particularly caring about it), searching google books gives
95% for uppercase Line.Actually more like 90%. I wouldn't say lots of sources; there are a few that do Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:09, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Endorse also per Amakuru. The question of whether to capitalize line is largely settled and per CONSISTENCY, a move was the correct close, even though it was numerically close. If there were strong arguments to overlook the consistency factor, that might have changed it, but I don't see them here. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:04, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- TonyBallioni, didn’t I see an argument that consistency sharply changed for Japanese and Korean railways? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:34, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
- Isn't it hard to argue for consistency when all the other korean railway lines are uppercased? It seems more sensible to lowercase all of them in one RM or not do any moves. I question whether it is appropriate to extend lowercasings of "line" in other countries's railway lines here. Galobtter (pingó mió) 04:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with this. This could be a precedent-setting RM for all Korean and Japanese railway line titles. I don't think the discussion has the clarity to merit that. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not exactly, because there are several other RMs in the past that involved decaps. Editors Dicklyon and feminist appear to be two interested parties as seen for example at Talk:Aljunied MRT Station#Requested move 7 January 2018, and they would know much more about the situation than I do. If I'm not mistaken, decap discussions have involved US, UK and Australian as well as Korean and Japanese lines/stations. I've yet to see any changes to Japanese articles, though. I think it may be an ongoing objective to bring consistency and MOS compliance to all railway articles. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 06:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- Many countries have their own naming conventions for railways: WP:CANSTATION, WP:USSTATION, WP:UKSTATION. If these are to be standardized, it shouldn't be through individual move discussions. For Japan, the ruling guideline is at WP:MOS-JP#Train and subway stations and advises capitalized station names; capitalized station names are explicitly "MOS compliant" for Japan. The underlying point that we should avoid calling moves without consensus (or evidence) a standard for making further moves remains. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- That is correct, and that is not what I did – I wrote "Suspect these should also apply to all Japanese lines and stations, as well." And in this recent RM, I excluded the Japanese station and moved only the Korean for the very reason that WP:MOS-JP#Train and subway stations expresses that in Japan, "Station" is part of the proper name. Whether or not the Japanese MOS overrides the general MOS is a discussion for another venue, I think. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 15:10, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- Note that all of the various countries' station naming conventions are consistent with MOS:CAPS in not capping "station" except in those relatively rare instances when it is clearly part of the proper name of the place. We've done the same on "railway" worldwide, with negligible pushback, and yes I would like for "line" to be similarly treated. 2Q keeps saying that evidence has been presented that Korea and/or Japan and/or China are special in that when their line names get anglicized they should be capped, or that they are linguistically "proper names" in some sense different from what they are in other countries. But all I see there is personal inference; where's the evidence? Lacking it, MOS:CAPS is the overriding consensus about how we chose when to cap things. Dicklyon (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- There was linguistic evidence presented, but since I'm not sure what would qualify as linguistic evidence to you, I'm not sure how to respond. The normal standard is generally met in these cases: the lines in Korea and Japan are consistently capped in reliable sources. Perhaps you are aware, for example, that most streets are not given names in Japan; conversely, train lines are. The reverse appears to be true in much of the English-speaking world. (I do not speak Chinese and cannot comment on that case.) The MOS reflects this distinction and respects national distinctions in capitalization, as in titles of written works written in Romance languages. Please let me know what sort of evidence would make sense to you and I will reply (here or elsewhere). Dekimasuよ! 20:45, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- Many countries have their own naming conventions for railways: WP:CANSTATION, WP:USSTATION, WP:UKSTATION. If these are to be standardized, it shouldn't be through individual move discussions. For Japan, the ruling guideline is at WP:MOS-JP#Train and subway stations and advises capitalized station names; capitalized station names are explicitly "MOS compliant" for Japan. The underlying point that we should avoid calling moves without consensus (or evidence) a standard for making further moves remains. Dekimasuよ! 06:24, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- Not exactly, because there are several other RMs in the past that involved decaps. Editors Dicklyon and feminist appear to be two interested parties as seen for example at Talk:Aljunied MRT Station#Requested move 7 January 2018, and they would know much more about the situation than I do. If I'm not mistaken, decap discussions have involved US, UK and Australian as well as Korean and Japanese lines/stations. I've yet to see any changes to Japanese articles, though. I think it may be an ongoing objective to bring consistency and MOS compliance to all railway articles. Paine Ellsworth put'r there 06:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with this. This could be a precedent-setting RM for all Korean and Japanese railway line titles. I don't think the discussion has the clarity to merit that. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Withdrawing I'd like to apologise to everyone for having lost my temper, but it was extremely frustrating to have tried to point out source after source after source to show that these are in fact proper names, only to be ignored, or have a "yes but MOS" handwave it away, and then be told "I'm ignoring this, but AGF on my part"... I've come to realise none of this is worth the headache for me... so I'm going to withdraw, and not contribute to any railway-related articles anymore, and just stick to football. Not out of spite or anything, but because I know myself well enough that eventually, seeing improperly capitalised names will drive me nuts again. 2Q (talk) 06:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- I hope 2Q will change her mind, but in either event, please let discussion of this close continue. Dekimasuよ! 06:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
- Endorse close. There's not much evidence or consensus that "line" in this context is, or should be treated as, part of a proper name. Closer closed based on the arguments and evidence presented. Dicklyon (talk) 20:15, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
- I'm a bit surprised by this response. There's not much evidence or consensus that "line" in this context isn't, or shouldn't be treated as, part of a proper name–and the onus is normally upon those proposing a move to make a case for a change to the status quo. As far as I can tell, you were the only one who made a gesture toward providing evidence, but in the future I hope you will at least support a higher standard for what is considered sufficient evidence than what was presented here. Dekimasuよ! 20:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Persecution of Eastern Orthodox Christians (closed)
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The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
As noted on the talk page of the closer TonyBallioni, under the section Move review, the move in question should be reviewed on several grounds. Regarding the relation between the title and the content, it should be pointed out that the article in question is one of general denominational articles on negative sentiments and animosities towards particular communities, in this case towards the Eastern Orthodox Christianity. In other words, by its very content and previous title scope, it belonges to the same class of wide-scope articles like Anti-Catholicism or Anti-Protestantism. It should also be noted that earlier in February, a failed attempt was made to delete this article (see: Articles for deletion: Anti-Orthodoxy). Only after that, a proposal for the move emerged, from the same group of users who previously tried to delete the article. During discussion on the move, consensus was reached, in principle, to rename the article, but there was no clear consensus on style and scope of the new title, and therefore the closer was faced with quite a complex task. During the discussion, two possible solutions emerged. Initial proposal was implying change of style, and reduction of scope to "persecution" only. Unfortunately, during the entire discussion, proponents of the reduction did not state a single word of explanation, and they did not respond to any of the questions raised on the problem of reduction. In other words, there was no discussion on the subject. On the other hand, in order to preserve style and scope, the counter-proposal also emerged, based on official terminology used by the FBI as designation for negative sentiments and animosities towards Eastern Orthodox Christianity (see more than 800 hits on Google Search for the FBI use of the official term for "Anti-Eastern Orthodox" sentiment). In spite of that, the reduction proposal was carried out, the style was changed and the scope reduced to the "persecution" only. It should be noted that during the discussion it was pointed out that similar denominational articles like Anti-Catholicism or Anti-Protestantism have not been subjected to such reduction, since Persecution of Catholics correctly redirects to Anti-Catholicism as a wider concept, and Persecution of Protestants correctly redirects to Anti-Protestantism, also a wider concept. Therefore, applying different criteria to similar denominational article on anti-Eastern Orthodox sentiment could be perceived as an example of double standards and unfortunate violation of some basic values, as defined by Wikipedia rules and policies. Again, it should be pointed out that the closer had a very difficult task, since this was one of those cases when a very important and complex issue, regarding here the general article on negative sentiments towards an entire denomination, is discussed by only a handful of users, during few days, while it is clear that such complex issues require wider participation, longer discussion, and solutions that are based on the actual scope and contents of the article in question. Sorabino (talk) 00:04, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Tea Party (closed)
The following is an archived debate of the move review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Low turnout (only four other editors participated) and general lack of policy-based arguments on the "oppose" side should really have resulted in a state of no consensus per WP:NOTMOVED. Besides myself, only one other editor (Shadow007) used valid policy-or-guideline-based reasoning. Two other editors (Netoholic and Randy Kryn) argued that Tea Party movement could not be the primary topic for the term Tea Party because Boston Tea Party was more significant. However, this ignores WP:PTM which makes clear that terms that are not likely to be confused don't belong on the same disambiguation page. A fourth editor (Certes) appeared to suggest that Tea party was an equally valid primary topic, which is a case of WP:DIFFCAPS similar to Red Meat vs. Red meat. Both titles can be primary for their respective topics. —Sangdeboeuf (talk) 14:55, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
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The above is an archive of the move review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |