Good article reassessment (GAR) is a process used to review and improve good articles (GAs) that may no longer meet the good article criteria (GACR). GAs are held to the current standards regardless of when they were promoted. All users are welcome to contribute to the process, regardless of whether they were involved with the initial nomination. Editors should prioritize bringing an article up to standard above delisting. Reassessments are listed for discussion below and are concluded according to consensus. The GAR Coordinators — Lee Vilenski, Iazyges, Chipmunkdavis, and Trainsandotherthings — work to organize these efforts, as well as to resolve contentious reviews. To quickly bring issues to their notice, or make a query, use the {{@GAR}} notification template, or make a comment on the talk page.

Good article reassessment is not a peer review process; for that use peer review. Content disputes on GAs should be resolved through normal dispute resolution processes. Good article reassessment only assesses whether the article meets the six good article criteria. Many common problems (including not meeting the general notability guideline, the presence of dead URLs, inconsistently formatted citations, and compliance with all aspects of the Manual of Style) are not covered by the GA criteria and therefore are not grounds for delisting. Instability in itself is not a reason to delist an article. Potential candidates for reassessment can be found on the cleanup listing. Delisted good articles can be renominated as good articles if editors believe they have resolved the issues that led to the delist.

Before opening a reassessment

1. Consider whether the article meets the good article criteria.
2. Check that the article is stable. Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate.
3. Consider raising issues at the talk page of the article or requesting assistance from major contributors.
4. If there are many similar articles already nominated at GAR, consider delaying the reassessment request. If an editor notices that many similar GARs are open and requests a hold, such requests should generally be granted.

Opening a reassessment

1. To open a good article reassessment, use the GAR-helper script on the article. Detail your reasons for reassessing the article and submit. Your rationale must specify how you believe the article does not meet the good article criteria. GARs whose rationale does not include the GACR may be speedily closed.
2. The user script does not notify major contributors or relevant WikiProjects. Notify these manually. You may use {{subst:GARMessage|ArticleName|page=n}} ~~~~ to do so, replacing ArticleName with the name of the article and n with the number of the reassessment page (1 if this is the first reassessment).
3. Consider commenting on another reassessment (or several) to help with any backlog.

Reassessment process

1. Editors should discuss the article's issues with reference to the good article criteria, and work cooperatively to resolve them.
2. The priority should be to improve articles and retain them as GAs rather than to delist them, wherever reasonably possible.
3. If discussion has stalled and there is no obvious consensus, uninvolved editors are strongly encouraged to add a new comment rather than closing the discussion.
4. If discussion becomes contentious, participants may request the assistance of GAR coordinators at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations. The coordinators may attempt to steer the discussion towards resolution or make a decisive close.

Closing a reassessment

To close a discussion, use the GANReviewTool script on the reassessment page of the article and explain the outcome of the discussion (whether there was consensus and what action was taken).

1. GARs typically remain open for at least one week.
2. Anyone may close a GAR, although discussions which have become controversial should be left for closure by experienced users or GAR coordinators.
3. If a clear consensus develops among participants that the issues have been resolved and the article meets GACR, the reassessment may be closed as keep at any time.
4. After at least one week, if the article's issues are unresolved and there are no objections to delisting, the discussion may be closed as delist. Reassessments should not be closed as delist while editors are making good-faith improvements to the article.
   • If there have been no responses to the reassessment and no improvements to the article, the editor who opened the reassessment may presume a silent consensus and close as delist.

Disputing a reassessment

1. A GAR closure should only be contested if the closure was obviously against consensus or otherwise procedurally incorrect. A closure should only be disputed within the first seven days following the close.
2. Before disputing a GAR closure, first discuss your concerns with the closing editor on their talk page.
3. If discussing does not resolve concerns, editors should post at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations and ask for review from uninvolved editors and the coordinators.

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Note: Please remember to put a note on the article's talk page informing editors that it has been brought to WP:GAR for reassessment and possible delisting of its Good article status. Include [[WP:GAR|Good article reassessment]] in the section heading.

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I think this article should be reassessed before putting on the list of GA at the moment. Very weak citation:

• 1) No citation can be found in the paragraph of Pre-Christian Denmark.
• 2) No citation can be found in the paragraph of Medieval Denmark.
• 3) Only one citation can be found in the paragraph of Recent history.
• 4) Only one citation can be found in the section of politics.
• 5) some statements in the section of economy need citations:
  • The government has met the economic convergence criteria for participating in the third phase (the common European currency - the Euro) of the Economic and Monetary Union of the European Union (EMU), but Denmark, in a September 2000 referendum, rejected The Monetary Union.
  • In the area of sickness and unemployment, the right to benefit is always dependent on former employment and at times also on membership of an unemployment fund, which is almost always -but need not be- administered by a trade union, and the previous payment of contributions. However, the largest share of the financing is still carried by the central government and is financed from general taxation, and only to a minor degree from earmarked contributions.
  • The Danish welfare model is accompanied by a taxation system that is both broad based (25% VAT and excise) and with high income tax rates (minimum tax rate for adults is 39.6%).
  • Denmark is home to many well known multi-national companies, among them: A.P. Moller-Maersk Group (Maersk - international shipping), Lego (children's toys), Bang & Olufsen (hi-fi equipment), Carlsberg (beer), and the pharmaceutical companies Lundbeck and Novo Nordisk.
• 6) No citation AT ALL in the section of transport.
• 7) No citation can be found in the paragraph of Cinema of Denmark.
• 8) No citation can be found in the paragraph of Danish sport.
• 9) No citation can be found in the paragraph of Danish Food AT ALL.

Several sections need more information:

• Transport
• Religion
• Military

Many references seems not to follow the format of reference (MoS).

• 1
• 14(?)
• 23
• 32-34
• 40-42

No English sources AT ALL provided in the section reference, only Danish and Swedish were given. How about See also?? Coloane 05:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak delist I guess it could use some more citations for a few surprising/contentious facts, but in general it seems ok. A paragraph-by-paragraph run-down seems like overkill though: there's no rule that says every paragraph should have a citation. The citations are also poorly formatted, and a few sections are choppy/short. Definitely close to GA, except for those few issues. Drewcifer 05:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist per the nomination. I agree that citation is a problem here, but there are also other formatting discrepencies with mid-prose external links and images. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:22, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I just saw this FA in the Spanish Wikipedia and there's no comparison with this "GA". It is poorly sourced (too many references come from one book), plus it doesn't respect a lot of MOS rules. There's also too many book quotes, sometimes whole paragraphs, and too many references to "the Evita icon" in her biography section (why are Andrew Lloyd Weber's lyrics mentioned in her biography?). The GA review might have been correct a year ago but the article does no longer meet the criteria. Yamanbaiia 01:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. The article certainly needs work. But I think it's a bit extreme to compare a "Good Article" to a "Featured Article," particularly when the Featured Article version is most likely written in the country of the subject where there is most likely a good deal more timely information about the subject. -- Andrew Parodi 06:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Andrew Parodi has heavily edited the article, and he admitted to have the concerns i have today, a year ago when the article was first reviewed (see talk page). Also, a FA in the Spanish wiki is not like one over here, some of them would even be quick failed at WP:GAN. Check out this completly unsourced "FA"s: ex1, ex2, ex3.

Response: This seems to be all the more reason that comparison of the English language Eva Peron article and the Spanish language article about Eva Peron should not enter in to this particular debate. We have different standards. Also, it would be helpful if you could contribute to the article to make the improvements you see necessary. If you think the article needs to adhere to the MOS rules, please help in that regard. -- Andrew Parodi (talk) 20:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak Keep. The article needs improvement, per nom. However, it appears to (minimally) meet all GA qualifications. The editors of the article could sharpen the prose, provide additional reference sources in spots and remove the Andrew Lloyd Weber lyrics from the biography (quite annoying). -- Majoreditor (talk) 18:12, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. The article could certainly be improved, the text sharpened up, and I agree that the lyrics are just annoying, but it's a GA article IMO. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 04:23, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

As I see it, fails the 'broad in coverage aspect', giving only a brief bit about anything besides gameplay and plot. The lead reflects this lack of information- it talks about mobile phone versions, but I haven't seen anything in the article about it. David Fuchs ^(talk) 01:13, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Woah, I guess I was biased in looking at it when I wrote it...anyways, I'll go add to the reception (etc.) sections now. Dihydrogen Monoxide 01:29, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I have been reviewing all of the "Conflicts, battles and military exercises" for GA sweeps, and am unsure if this article should remain a GA. The article is well-sourced in some areas, but in others, citations are lacking for entire sections or large paragraphs. Although multiple sources have been added since the last recommendation to include them, I don't believe it to be sufficient for the length of the article. Nehrams2020 06:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Much of the article is well-referenced; I count a total of 62 in-line citations. However, two sections lack any citations. The Prelude section would be stronger if it contained a citation on Hitler's peace overtures. The section on Dyle Plan also needs citations. Majoreditor 14:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment If the casualties section (which deals with hard numbers) had inline citations, i'd say this article would be well-referenced overall, neither unferenced section seems critically important, and there are general references at the bottom which probably cover some or most of the material in those sections. Homestarmy (talk) 22:01, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

This article was found during sweep process. It carries a lot of information, but I feel that it's a little too much (per criteria 3b). The references are not uniform. Also, trivia section was found. It definetely doesn't deserve a bold delist, so I want others' opinions. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. It clearly does not meet WP:LEAD at the moment. Although this doesn't deserve a bold delist, it might be appropriate to use a regular delisting procedure, as described in the guidelines at the top of this page: i.e., list your concerns on the talk page, maybe try to fix some of them, wait a week or so, and if the article still does not meet the criteria, delist it. Geometry guy 20:13, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist Yes, the lead is definently too short, it can't possibly be summarizing most of the article. Homestarmy (talk) 20:21, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Has been listed as in need of citations for 11 months. As it stands, it is unsourced and reads like OR. Pastordavid 19:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist. Paucity of in-line citations means that it fails GA criteria 2. Majoreditor 19:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist needs citationsBalloonman 20:11, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist There's no way a mere three sources are capable of adequatly covering a subject as broad as this. -- Homestarmy (talk) 18:05, 16 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist. As per above. --Malleus Fatuarum (talk) 04:25, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist. This need not have been brought to GAR: see the delisting guidelines at the top of the page. It suffices to detail the problems on the article talk page, maybe try to fix some of them, wait a week or so, and if the article still does not meet the criteria, delist it. The article clearly needs to be better sourced, not necessarily by more inlines. For example, the quotation from Dante, although it is attributed, is not even accompanied by bibliographical information about Dante's work in the references. Geometry guy 20:20, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I would like a second opinion on this article, based on concerns at Talk:Stillwell Avenue. Thank you.—JA10 Talk • Contribs 02:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse fail: While the reviewers choice of words "too short" may have been a bad choice, the crux of his arguement, that the article lacks the broadness required of a GA as spelled out in WP:WIAGA seems quite accurate. The history section, for example, contains 3 unrelated facts crammed into one paragraph. 80 years of history condensed into 3 short lines does not seem to be broad enough at all. Also, the "future and culture" section? The title itself makes no sense. If both topics are to be covered, they should be part of separate sections "Future plans" and "in culture" or "culture of the street" or some such. Also, we have a superlative statement (largest subway station) that is left unreferenced. That needs referencing, as all superlatives are inherently challenegable. This seems well below WP:WIAGA standards at this time. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:23, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse fail. The article does not do enough to assert notability, it is not broad, the lead does not summarize it, and the prose is poor (e.g. "The road is a parallel for a short time to Henderson Walk until the intersection with Surf Avenue at .2 of a mile."). There are several minor issues that also need to be fixed, such as the simultaneous left and right images in the transportation section. Geometry guy 20:31, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I am not personally involved in the article, and am actually not sure whether the article should be delisted or not. However, one user has delisted the article without giving any time for concerns to be addressed, and I think it is much better that a consensus be reached (especially as it is not 100% clear this article should be delisted). Some of the concerns can be found at Talk:Opus Dei#Delisted the article as GA. Shudde ^talk 00:34, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep on the GA list. I honestly don't see the POV problems the delister is complaining about. The article is comprehensive, indeed an excellent overview of the subject, and it DOES present both well publicized positive and negative perceptions of the organization. The sources are approrpriately used; it cites both secondary and primary sources as approrpriate. While I would agree that for obvious cases, it is quite allowable for an article to be delisted without discussion, this was right to be brought here. I see no major issues with this article as it stands now. Indeed, I would recomend an FA run in the future. This seems quite close to meeting the requirements of an FA. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist. I do think that there's a neutrality issue with this article, as noted by the editor who pre-emptorily delisted it. I'm particularly concerned about the Replies to criticism section. If whatever's important in that section was distributed elsewhere in the body of the article then I might be persuaded to change my mind, but as it stands it does look a bit like "set 'em up and shoot 'em down". --Malleus Fatuarum 02:48, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep as the article meets GA criteria and is well-balanced. I'd prefer to see the criticism and the rebuttal integrated into, rather segregated from, the rest of the article -- but that certainly isn't grounds for de-listing. Majoreditor 04:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Well this is a first Of all the articles I have ever read and come away knowing no more than before I began, this is by far the longest and most meticulously documented. I lean toward Delist, because I have no idea why O.D. is so powerful, and the criticisms were glossed over in a hurry. Please feel free to persuade me to Keep... --Ling.Nut 13:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep There are definately some problems with the article. The introduction is very choppy and should be smoothed out. I saw a lot of criticism of O.D. throughout the article. The controversy section used a lot of weasel words (name critics and supporters.) The controversy section was also where the article was its weakest. The criticism section should be strengthened, while the rebuttal section should be shortened. But overall, I thought the article is clearly a Good Article. I do not, however, agree with Jayron in thinking that it is "quite close" to becoming an FA. Too many sections where the prose wasn't quite there.Balloonman 20:11, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Nowhere near FA; still very questionable on GA. I think it's a diligently created puff piece, frankly. Glossed over everything. To repeat, I learned nothing except what I could have learned if I had bothered to find some pamphlet in some Catholic library somewhere or other. --Ling.Nut 00:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Diligently created puff piece would be a good summary of my opinion of the article as well. Nowhere near FA, and very dubious for GA. --Malleus Fatuarum 04:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• I shall have to remember "Diligently created puff piece" as a possible GAR recommendation! Although I have seen worse, I would have to agree. I read through the article, trying to imagine I'd never heard of the topic. By the time I reached the "Controversy" section, I was thinking "How dare they criticise such a wonderful organisation! Okay, some of its members may have strange personal practices, but look at all the good work they do."

Controversy sections are not a great idea at the best of times: when they are of the form "Criticism - Rebuttal" they are particularly unhelpful at achieving NPOV. This is yet another article (cf. Freemasonry) which is written from the internal point of view of an organization that feels more widely misunderstood. Consequently, it fails to achieve a neutral tone: where criticism is discussed, the article is defensive, and uses loaded words and sentences. Words not avoided include "claim", "point out", "although", "despite", "report", "allege", "maintain", and "contend". Also, although "while" is not mentioned at WP:WTA, it is misused in several places, including a particularly flagrant abuse in the lead no less. As a result, the lead clearly fails to summarize the article, with all of the controversy swept under the carpet in that loaded sentence.

After my own review, I went to the talk page to read the case for delisting made by Jaimehy. While I cannot verify some of the individual points made, I tend to agree overall with the analysis there.

WP:NPOV is, in my opinion, one of the most misunderstood of Wikipedia policies. I have said this here many times before: NPOV is not primarily achieved via a contest between pro- and anti- viewpoints, it is primarily achieved by writing and structuring the entire article from a neutral perspective. There is a beautiful and eloquent description of this by Gosgood in my talk archives.

I can see that a lot of work has gone into this article, but I cannot support the continued GA listing of an article which is riddled with sentences like "Despite his praise, the relationship between Paul VI and Opus Dei has been described by one Opus Dei critic as "stormy"." Delist. Geometry guy 14:06, 17 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Article was quick-failed for lack of inline citations, but there is no such requirement in either WP:GA? or WP:V. Although inline cites are commonly used, they are not always required. They are only specifically required for: "direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons" which are not applicable to this article. Many editors object to the overuse of inline cites because they are unnecessarily distracting. This article is a compilation of several public domain sources which are in general agreement on the topic, which is the practical application of the "principles of learning." Each alone supports the entire article (with the minor exception of the Navy source which omits Recency). The text of the article is mostly verbatim transclusion of the best examples and explanations from each, with some minor editing to make the presentation generic. There is no need for inline citations on each sentence to show which of the documents each came from. The article meets WP:V and should be assessed on its merits. Dhaluza 14:46, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment None of the references seem to be from educational psycologists, but instead, various parts of the U.S. federal government....? That seems very odd, especially since the lead says that education psycologists are the ones who I suppose agree about these principles of learning. Homestarmy 17:04, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail. The sources supplied are geared towards training, in particular training the trainer, and are at best tertiary; the article needs better quality sources. I agree with the review comment about inline citations. It is not sufficient merely to list a number of sources in a References section, unless all of the material in the article could be considered to be general knowledge and therefore not needing to be sourced. Which is not the case with this article. Much of the material could be challenged, such as the effect of stress on learning for instance. I also believe that the article is substantially incomplete, focusing as it does on teaching as opposed to learning. There is no mention of the students' learning strategies for instance, topics like distributed vs massed practice, transfer of training, promptness of feedback, learning to learn, or individual differences in learners; this is perhaps because the article seems to focus on training, as opposed to learning. There is much else that could be criticised in this article, and although it may be a reasonable start it barely scratches the surface of this topic and is unbalanced. --Malleus Fatuarum 18:25, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You are correct that the article is geared toward training--I intended that to be clear from the lead. The refs also cover student strategies, and other factors but in separate sections, so this could be covered in separate articles. This article was intended to be focused on a much narrower topic, rather than be a complete treatise on the subject of learning. Dhaluza 12:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Reply. Then the article ought to be called the Principles of training, not the Principles of learning. But it doesn't cover either subject in sufficient detail, with sufficient references, to be listed as a GA as it stands. --Malleus Fatuarum 02:32, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail as failing reviewer. I no way suggested that an article must have, "inline citations on each sentence". But in general, facts must be attributed to particular sources for strong verifiability. Simply take a look at all other articles listed at WP:GA. Leaving it to readers to figure out which facts are associated with which sources is not acceptable verification for GA-class articles. Regardless, as mentioned above, the source material isn't exactly the most topically appropriate. If you don't want to use any inline citations, that's fine. But it's not Good Article class work. VanTucky ^Talk 18:45, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If you check the history or the refs, you will see the text of each section is taken from different refs on a sentence by sentence basis, to the point that virtually each sentence would require a cite. This would be unnecessarily distracting because the refs are all in basic agreement. There are no citable facts per se, there are merely descriptions of each principle as commonly applied. I agree that inline cites are generally a good thing, and I certainly know how to use them, but I don't think they are necessary or desirable in this case. Dhaluza 12:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Again, if don't want them, then the article doesn't necessarily need to have inline cites. But if you want to be GA class, it must. Read the quote from the criteria provided further down. Good Articles must have inline citations. Period. VanTucky ^Talk 21:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail Published opinion is what this article is about, and that needs citing. While such opinions may be held by those in high accademic standing, and such opinions may represent a majority opinion in the scientific and educational psychology community, they are still published opinions, and must cite where they come from. Without inline cites, it is impossible to tell which reference each idea is tied to. Also, I would agree with the above assessments over the kinds of references. I am a teacher myself, and there are GOBS of texts on this topic. This article seems to rip text from half a dozen U.S. government publications, and cites another half dozen texts. With the hundreds there are to choose from, many of which present differing ideas on these principles, I have serious concerns over broadness with this article AS WELL AS referencing. While I abhor the notion of "quick failing" an article (I have never done it, and never would) and would prefer to see reviewers take the time to leave comments necessary to improve the article to GA standards, I would endorse the failure of the article for the reasons outlined above. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 02:36, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article does transclude text from six U.S. Government publications, the other refs are further reading, not cites. The article is not intended to be broad, it is intended to narrowly focus on the practical application of the principles, as stated in the lead. Dhaluza 12:04, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Endorse fail. To quote from GA criterion #2, a Good Article "at minimum, provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged." The article in question lacks any in-line citations, which means that it fails. Sorry. Majoreditor 14:07, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Endorse fail without any citations, I have no idea of how accurate this article is or upon what basis the editors used to write it. The principles may be accepted, or they may not be, how do I know? Because the article claims it is so? But doesn't back it up. Are these views universally held or accepted only by a certain segment of educational psychologist? Sorry, this article is stating as fact something that I can see groups questioning/challenging. As such, it needs citations.Balloonman 20:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Poorly-written and absolutely chock-full of {{fact}} tags. Some major sections are completely uncited. VanTucky ^Talk 23:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist. It definitely needs more citations. I also dislike the lists inside the "Varieties" section, they would do better in a better article in my opinion. The "Description" is way too short as well. bibliomaniac15 A straw poll on straw polls 23:57, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist I get the feeling that this used to meet criteria in its past; the first several sections are all adequately referenced and well written. The last 2/3rds of the article, however, have poor prose, and are in desperate need of citations; even beyond the fact tags are several statistics provided, as one example. All statistics need a source, per WP:SCG, the relevent guide for this article. Its a shame given the quality work done on the first 2-3 sections, but as an overall article, this is clearly below WP:WIAGA standards. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 23:59, 6 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You're completely right Jayron. I remember reading the article not too long after it passed, and it was good. The usual stewards of the article got burnt out with the large amount of vandalism that was going on for some time and left, so it's now in the sorry state you see. VanTucky ^Talk 00:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My heart aches. This one could be turned into GA by a dedicated editor. The ingredients are all there. Delist. --Ling.Nut 12:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist due to lack of citations. Additionally, the description section needs expansion and the prose are clunky. Majoreditor 20:50, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist per above comments. More citations are needed, prose could be improved and fact tags need to be addressed. Rai-me 02:02, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist per above... but also the lists are long and the prose reads as fluff---"they also die if they don't eat in a week." It isn't very encyclopedic. I do agree with Jayron, the first 2-3 sections were very strong... then it crashed.Balloonman 04:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Edit · Talk · History · Watch)

(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

My third successful GA. It has, since its nomination, swelled in its plot summary and gained an OR tag. Does it just need a bit of work or should delisting be considered? Lenin and McCarthy | (Complain here) 20:01, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Conditional Keep A decent article for a great game, but there are a few things that stick out to me. First off the plot section should definitely be trimmed down. I'd say it needs to be about half of what it is now, but that's just a guesstimate. Also, there's a few instances of in-line citations having a space in between them and the sentence. It should be this,^[1] not this. ^[2] Also the in-line citations need to be formatted consistently and need to give proper and full attribution. Some of them are all over the place. Although the Music section has a main article link, I think you should add in a bit more prose than just a single sentence. I'd also trim down the External links a bit. Also, this sentence is a bit confusing "and he has been manifested from the perspectives of the film's characters rather than that of James, as he does not appear in the film." If you can fix those things, I'd say it definitely meets GA criteria. Hopefully that doesn't seem like too much work. Drewcifer 22:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Delist Due to lack of improvement based on the above. Drewcifer 00:46, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - Are you sure the version promoted meets the GA criteria? if it does you can be bold a revert back all those versions. - Caribbean~H.Q. 13:40, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I don't see how the plot is swelled. The current version of the plot is 10,1 kilobytes, reviewed version is 8,98 kb. The refs are the main reason for the increased size. --Mika1h 20:43, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

As per my peer review at Wikipedia:WikiProject Comics/Peer review/Barbara Gordon, this is not a good article. It is far too excessively focused on the minutiae of DC comics trivia and continuity, and fails to provide an overview of its most significant claims - that Barbara Gordon, in both of her major comics incarnations, is a cultural icon in some sense. Furthermore, the article is appallingly presentist, with half of the character history being spent on the last four years of comics. The article is not a good article, and requires a thorough rewrite from first premises to become one. Phil Sandifer 14:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delist I would agree with the above assessment. The balance between in-universe and out-of-universe perspective is WAY off, per WP:FICT guidlines, and the article is fails the WP:WIAGA broadness guidelines in both of its sub-criteria: It ignores major aspects, as Sandifer notes above, and also delves into unnecessary details. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 00:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Failure to use a specific template is not the same as failure to produce a broad article. The specified template is a guideline used by WP:PLANTS for species pages. It is in no way a straightjacket that all plants articles must meet. Many articles do not follow that "standard" template, and many should not follow that template. The Marsileaceae is one such article because a) it is not about a particular plant, b) it is not a plant that is cultivated except in specialized botanical gardens, so the "cultivation" section wouldn't apply, c) it does not have economic uses, except for occasionally substituting four four-leaf clover, which is hardly deserving of an entire "Uses" section. In short, the "broad coverage" criterion was misapplied by the reviewer. It means '"broad coverage", not "specific format". EncycloPetey 04:42, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail The article has two inline cites (not none as noted by the reviewer) however, some additional references seems to be required by the scientific citation guideline, which asks for specific citation for statements such as these: :*"In all, the family contains 3 genera and 50 to 70 species with most of those belonging to Marsilea." Statistics need citations always.

• "The majority of species (about 45 to 65) belong to the genus Marsilea, which grows world-wide in warm-temperate and tropical regions." Again, contains a statistic that needs a reference.

It is understood that SCG has different citation requirements than do other citation guidelines, but there still are some citation requirements.

Also, the broadness criteria seems to not be met. It was not the use of a specific template (in the Wikisense) that the reviewer objected to, it is that the article does not adequately address all major aspects of the topic. While a GA does not require the depth of coverage that an FA does, it does require that there be no major omissions. For example, the ecology (such as relation to other species/relation to its environment) is not covered. Also, no information is given on human interaction with this class of life, such as uses of these plants, or perhaps how these plants are cultivated(if useful) or controlled(if pest). Based on these shortcomings, it looks like a fail was an appopriate act to take. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The citations criticism is accepted and has been corrected. However, please note that the ecology/human interactions criticism is inappropriate. There are about 350,000 species of plants, and for most of those species little or nothing is known of how they interact with other species, and most plants have no human uses. Requiring an article to say "nothing is known of the ecology and there are no uses" imposes an unmeetable criterion, since such a statement would require a citation, and no such citation will exist when no such information has been published! It is a catch-22 to require an article to contain original research in order to meet "good article" status. The broadness criterion only requires known and published information to be covered, not unknown, unpublished information. If the information is so obscure that it is not published in books or articles about the plants, why should lack of that information in the article be a hurdle to receiving "good article" status? These plants are not cultivated, controlled, or used (beyond the little blurb in the article). In fact most of the world's 350,000 species of plants are not cultivated, controlled, or used by humans.

And you are mistaken about the reason for failure. The reviewer said: "This template contains numerous section topics not addressed by the article, hence the failure of broad coverage of the subject." The reviewer specifically failed the article for not including information she assumed should be in the article, whether or not that information actually exists, basing her decision solely on the misapplication of an inappropriate criterion: the WP:PLANTS template. The template does not apply to larger groups of plants and was never meant to be applied that way. It is merely a guideline, intended for use on pages covering a single species of plant, or in some cases a genus. It was never intended to apply to pages that cover larger groups of many disparate species, such as this article on a fern family. The broad coverage criterion is being misapplied. --EncycloPetey 12:52, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Return to GAN The article appears to have addressed the citation issues. Also, I can understand and accept the above arguement for broadness requirements. It is my opinion that the best course of action now is to seek an additional full review, by returning this to GAN. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 16:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Renominate I didn't see the two Harvard references, but it still needs work. It is, however, obviously not a quick-fail in consideration of that. VanTucky ^Talk 21:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Opinion only I was the original reviewer and failed the article for lack of broad coverage, citing the non-adherence to the plants template. Not that the template should have been followed to the letter, but it raised plenty of questions for me about broad coverage, that's all. Contrast the sections in this article with those in Fabaceae, also a family-level article, which has sections on taxonomy, description, uses, images, refs and sources. FWIW. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmoyer (talk • contribs) 23:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  That's not a fair comparison. Fabaceae is the bean family, one of the largest, most diverse, and most economically important groups of plants on Earth. It includes over 600 genera and more than 16,000 species, with countless crops (peanuts, peas, lentils, clover, etc.) and a large number of kinds of trees. By comparison, the Marsileaceae is a group of small aquatic ferns with at most 70 species in 3 genera, and no economically important crops come from the group. Equivalent rank (family) in a classification does not indicate anything about the relative size or economic importance; it is merely a scientific label. One plant family may include only a single obscure species of liverwort with no economic or horticultural relevance, while another may have thoudands of members familiar to people all over the world. Compare for example Takakiaceae and Poaceae. --EncycloPetey 01:12, 1 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

I believe this article was unfairly failed due to "stability" issues, when the article itself has barely been edited in the past few months. I feel it is a Good Article. FamicomJL 22:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Renominate. I suggest that this article should be re-nominated. I really don't see much wrong with it. --Malleus Fatuarum 00:40, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Endorse fail. The stability issue is due to the Transwiki tag in the article. I would endorse that that entire section needs to be moved to Wikiquote or Wikisource as described in the template. The problem with stability seems to be not that the article has NOT changed, but that it NEEDS drastic changes, and a GA review should NOT be undertaken until said changes have been made. I think the reviewer needed to explain that better, but the Transwiki should be completed before a proper GA review should be done since that changes that will make to the article will be significant. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 03:04, 30 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Egads, I wish I hadn't read that. Disgusting. well, you can say Renominate or you can say Endorse fail, either way you wanna cut the cake.. but this shouldn't be GA until after the transwiki issues are cleaned up for sure. I think it should be sent through WP:LoCE as well... but a lot of work has been poured into this article; that much is abundantly clear. --Ling.Nut 04:22, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

..and OH PS I sympathize with those who brought this into GAR; the review was unusually cryptic. But still not GA time for this one yet. --Ling.Nut 04:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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(De)listing: Archive at GAR, WP:GA, T:GA#, Article talk.

Listed as a result of current GA sweep (Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force). Whilst this article meets many of the GA critera, I believe its coverage of - and focus on - its subject are questionable. The majority of the article relates to a single event in John Herivel's life (in considerable detail); further biographical information is sparse. IMO not GA standard for a WP:BIO article, but I'd like further opinions ;) EyeSerene^TALK 13:30, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. I am leaning toward "Keep" as GA since the article's subject -- Herivel and his role in Cryptanalysis of the Enigma -- are noteworthy. Also, the Herivel article contains useful material not found in the Cryptanalysis of the enigma article. Majoreditor 15:12, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Would a name change+redirect be the way to go then? If a person is only notable for one thing I understand that it's difficult to write about him/her without writing about that thing, but my feeling is that this article takes it too far. EyeSerene^TALK 17:56, 19 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. (Fair warning: I'm the primary author on this one). Firstly, I don't believe there's much extra published material that could be added to give more details about John Herivel's life; the biography is "complete" in that sense, at least for the time being, although EyeSerene is quite correct to point out that it's not very detailed. And yes, the article does essentially deal with two interrelated topics at once. That was a conscious decision, and I would argue that it's not necessarily a bad approach. You could split out the article into two stubby articles, but I think it makes for a better encyclopedia article to treat both together — indeed, that's always how the topics are treated in the sources. — Matt Crypto 10:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist. Rename. Renominate. On very narrow grounds (for astoundingly, I enjoyed the article and under slightly different circumstances would argue for its inclusion). If the name of the article was hidden from me, and I was invited to guess what it might be, I would opt for 'Herivel's Tip'. That's what the article is about, and I do think it is important that the name of an article reflects its content. When I open a can of peas, I feel cross when I find chickpeas inside. Certainly I can settle for the closely-related legume, but the fact of the matter remains that I was misinformed; the can labeler should have taken a little bit of extra care at accurately identifying the contents. As for the closely related (and unwritten) biography of John Herivel, it would be a thin article indeed; John Herivel appears to have succeeded in conducting a quiet, uneventful life in which he has written some interesting books. So a fellow who does a neat bit pattern recognition gives rise to a Good Article on that work, and the article on his life is otherwise brief. So be it, so long as the contents of the various articles are identified in unmisleading ways. Gosgood 20:07, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep. I find this article to be definitely interesting. Oppenheimer only did one thing in his lfe, did he not? --andreasegde 15:00, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and keep - Quality wise, it's good. Although, I would like to point out that "Interesting" is not a criteria for GA. It covers the topic of Herivel's Tip very well, but there is entirely too little biographical information to consider this a biography. Lara❤Love 18:27, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist, rename and renominate. This clearly isn't a biography, but what little biographical information there is may not be relevant to an article called Herivel's tip. --Malleus Fatuarum 18:42, 31 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Rename and Keep The whole proces of delisting, re-nomming etc. is a boring exercise. Just rename the darn thing. --Ling.Nut 06:38, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• rename and keep I would concur. As a biographical article, it would fail on Broadness grounds quite handily. As a description of an historical event, it is adequate. A simple page move and rename would be sufficient to keep this on the GA list. That is not to say that Herivel himself will not someday have an article about HIM, but this one isn't it... This one is about the event and the name should reflect that. Otherwise, it seems to meet criteria quite well. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 07:25, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Conditional Keep, rename, and refocus. seems to meet the criteria, there's just a mismatch between the intended focus of the article and the actual content. Renaming and redoing a bit of the prose (mainly the lead and the after the war sections) should be enough. Mind you, this is a conditional keep.Drewcifer 08:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Delist Struck through previous vote and changed it to delist, based on the fact that nothing is being done to improve the article, as well as the discussions below. Any editors are welcome to renominate the article at GAC if the issues with focus and the article's title are eventually taken care of, but for now it looks like delist. Drewcifer 16:10, 15 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment. I have some sympathy for the "rename and keep" position, but what does it actually mean? It seems to mean that keeping the article on the GA list is conditional on renaming it. Okay, so does that mean someone should close this discussion and rename the article? Would this article, in its present form (and it hasn't been edited since February!) really meet the criteria if its title were "Herivel's tip"? I don't think so: with such a title it fails at least WP:LEAD and 3b (focus), as pointed out by Malleus Fatuarum and Drewcifer. I think it would also fail 3a, as an article purely on the tip needs to provide more context about Bletchley Park and the Enigma machine, rather than essentially beginning with that fateful evening in February 1940. More on "cillies" and "bombes" would also be helpful to the reader.

As a process, GAR can only decide whether an article meets the criteria or not, and endorse keeping or delisting. So, in my opinion, "Conditional keep" or "Do X and keep" is a temporary position that reverts to "keep" if the conditions are met, and "delist" if the conditions are not met. I think that Gosgood called this one about right with his "Delist. Rename. Renominate." Only the "delist" was bolded, because that is the only decision that GAR can make: the rest is just a suggestion. It is up to individual editors to rename and renominate, because that requires work.

Of course, this is more than just a process: it also draws in a bunch of editors with a lot of GA experience, and so we can sometimes do better than just making recommendations and suggestions. In my view, if this article is not going to be delisted, one or more of us have to get stuck in and rework it. I'm tempted myself, but I thought I would raise the general question here, because this sort of GAR has arisen more than once before. Geometry guy 19:24, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I really don't think we should be in the business of renaming articles, since there's already a separate process for that, and what happens if editors disagree with us? Articles don't have to be GA's after all, so they shouldn't have to be renamed as the result of a GA/R. Homestarmy 20:01, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I think you are right. Of course individual editors can rename and rework the article, but it isn't the role of this process to decide that. Geometry guy 20:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. There doesn't seem to be much doubt that the article as it presently stands should not be listed as a GA, and I don't think there's much doubt that simply re-naming it wouldn't make it fit the criteria either, for all the reasons stated above. Surely the only course is to delist it, work on it, and then re-nominate it? Sure, it's a nice article and very interesting, but it doesn't fit the criteria. --Malleus Fatuarum 20:10, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm inclined to agree that delisting seems to me to be the best way forward, and if some of us want to join in the effort to rename, rework and renominate, so much the better. But if the "rename and keep" folks have a strong argument against this, I'd like to hear it. Geometry guy 20:19, 12 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, that;s fine. I would endorse that move. I think it would take VERY little work to make a GA for this under Herival's tip, or whatever the new title would be, but if you want to delist it and renominate it under the new title, that seems fine. I would endorse that decision. --Jayron32|talk|contribs 05:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) It doesn't deserve to languish in GAC for a month. If one of y'all would agree to review it immediately upon its revision, then I can accept delist, revise & renom. --Ling.Nut 05:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be a rather novel interpretation of the GA criteria. --Malleus Fatuarum 06:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Novel? Seems like excessively following the rules to me. I just said that to go along with the crowd (since I am G-guy's bad-hand sock). My real view is this: leave the GA intact. Fix the !%&?% thing. Move on. :-) --Ling.Nut 06:40, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well here's my real view. This article does not meet the GA criteria and it ought therefore to be de-listed. I fail to see the point of having any criteria at all if they're going to be ignored whenever an individual editor believes that an article is "interesting". --Malleus Fatuarum 07:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]