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I always thought I knew what "Green Man" meant. Now I'm not so sure after reading this Slate article.[1] where independent scholar (who has a book published by Cambridge University Press) says "I spend a lot of my time trying to debunk the idea that the Green Man is an ancient figure from British folklore. He’s a made-up figure of 20th-century folklore." The article itself calls it "a folkloric or mythological figure" but also says " Lady Raglan coined the term "Green Man" for this type of architectural feature in her 1939 article The Green Man in Church Architecture in The Folklore Journal. "

The history section starts with discussing a book by Mike Harding, "an English singer, songwriter, comedian, author, poet, broadcaster and multi-instrumentalist. Harding has also been a photographer, traveller, filmmaker and playwright." I see it uses a recent letter to the Guardian from a Stephen Green, who published through Cambridge Scholars.[2] I don't have time to look at all the sources, but a quick glance suggests that a lot are unreliable. And am I wrong in thinking the article seems to link different concepts? Doug Weller talk 08:30, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that it is more of a decorative and artistic motif used on churches than a mythological figure, and the article should reflect that. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:50, 7 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

From Lady Raglan's article, page 47: "Sir Albert Seward, who has made a special study of the chapter-house at Southwall, where there is a number of 'Green Men,' has found a great variety of foliage there, and I have myself noticed a good deal of poison ivy, always a sacred herb." I should point out that Toxicodendron is not found in Europe, being confined to North America and a strip along the East Asian coast from Sakhalin to Taiwan. Mangoe (talk) 01:38, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, one of the sources (I think the New Yorker article) described her theory as "total bunk", which I'm having a hard time disagreeing with. Hemiauchenia (talk) 02:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My attempt to fix the article has been reverted by @Wuerzele:. Hemiauchenia (talk) 21:19, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion ongoing at Talk:Green_Man#Article_remains_a_mess... if anyone wants to comment. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:37, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I changed the short description from "American scuba diver (1936–2019)" to "American scuba diver (1936–2019) and writer about White gods" as that's an important aspect of his work (which wasn't even mentioned in the lead despite having its own section. User:GhostInTheMachine reverted me. In any case, "scuba diver" which GITM had added isn't adequate. Note I also made other changes.[3] Doug Weller talk 11:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What's the WP:MOS rule for whether to capitalize "white" in this context? Do most sources capitalize the word? It looks a little cringe to me. jps (talk) 13:37, 8 May 2023 (UTC)W[reply]

MOS:RACECAPS, which says to be consistent within an article. Donald Albury 14:45, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In White gods, it is consistently "white", so I would argue for lower-case in the above case. Donald Albury 14:47, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. And I see lower case in most sources, at least those I could read. My bad. Doug Weller talk 16:22, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Callahan, Tim (2008). "A New Mythology". Skeptic. Vol. 13, no. 4. wplibrary. But when i see the phrase "white gods" it's this which comes to mind and not pre-Columbian contact pseudoarcheology per Shermer and Callahan.

You might find better sources for Heyerdahl in this review of Thor Heyerdahl og jakten på Atlantis from Kon-Tiki Museum, instead of using an article published in The Drama Review. fiveby(zero) 16:35, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

See you already had Callahan in Marx, but not in white gods. Fritze, Ronald H. (1993). "White God Legends". Legend and lore of the Americas before 1492. Davies, Nigel (1979). "White Gods with Black Faces". Voyagers to the New World. Really don't see "extensive writing on white gods", but one opportunistic Columbus Quincentenary work. Diver, treasure hunter, pseudo/amateur archeologist. fiveby(zero) 18:24, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Fiveby The Kon-Tiki Museum is, I believe, biassed. The authors of that review are Reidar Solsvik who is an archaeologist and Curator of the Kon-Tiki Museum andEirik Stokke is a lecturer and is studying for a MA Degree in the history (of something, I can't see the rest).I agree with your summary description of Marx. I have: Norbeck, Edward (1953). "Review of American Indians in the Pacific". American Antiquity. 19 (1): 92–94 and several other reviews. Not about white gods, but the book Hunt, Terry (2011). The Statues That Walked: Unraveling the Mystery of Easter Island. Free Press sasys "\This is the tack taken by Thor Heyerdahl, who was convinced that Incan colonists from South America were the makers of the ahu and statues. His assumption goes even further, also claiming that the Incans responsible for the cultural florescence on Rapa Nui were ultimately the descendants of colonists with European origins who taught Native Americans the secrets of “advanced culture.”2 For Heyerdahl, simply tracing the “cause” of Rapa Nui culture back to Europe solved the apparent paradox of cultural achievement. Leaving its racist assumptions aside, empirical support for this argument is entirely lacking." p110

Thor Heyerdahl's The White Gods Caucasian Elements In Pre Inca Peru can be downloaded here.[4] Doug Weller talk 16:24, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just being a best sources snob. Hunt is better than a professor of theater history published in TDR: The Drama Review. But look at the "2" in your quote, he's citing Moore, Thomas (April 2, 1990). "Thor Heyerdahl: Sailing Against the Current". Us News & World Report. Reading that Kon-Tiki Museum article leads me to believe you should be citing Ralling Kon-Tiki Man which i can't find online, and/or Axel Andersson A Hero for the Atomic Age, or "Resan ut, resan in: Den unge Thor Heyerdahl och det mystiska folket". fiveby(zero) 21:41, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or is it that one source uses the phrase "white gods" where Andersson only says an itinerant race of white and blue-eyed culture-bearers that had journeyed from some centre in the Old World to jump-start the world’s great civilization so it's WP:OR to use the better source? fiveby(zero)

While we're here white gods needs some serious work, it's presented almost totally uncritically in wikivoice—blindlynx 15:15, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Added to Bible conspiracy theory by an IP, I suspect this is vandalism but since my wife has been researching David Barton of late, I just can't withstand exposure to that much idiocy in order to search for this. Mangoe (talk) 00:43, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Already deleted. Mangoe (talk) 01:04, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Emergence (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Is the concept of "strong emergence" fringe? That's the claim in this edit, which is part of a large body of BOLD cuts to the article. On the whole I think these cuts are good, and I do not disagree with the edit in questions (because the material removed was unsourced). But a quick search did yield some other sources that do seem to support the idea that "strong emergence" sits somewhere within the mainstream, at least in the philosophical literature. The SEP, for instance, provides a helpful overview of the debate: [5]. And here is David Chalmers, one of the most respected living philosophers, arguing in its favor (it's a chapter from the Oxford UP book The Re-emergence of Emergence): [6]. Even where the concept is criticized, e.g. here: [7], it appears be treated as a more or less mainstream position, or at least as an "alternative theoretical formulation". Anyone else have insight to offer here? Thanks, Generalrelative (talk) 17:56, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I do not think it a fringe concept at all; we have a very good example of "strong emergence" in the human brain. Roger Wolcott Sperry essentially said as much without using the precise term. There is a pretty good precis on the topic here. Then again, there are very good reasons that my livelihood depends on neither science nor mathematics, so I am of course open to the opinions of others. Cheers. Dumuzid (talk) 18:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In retrospect, I may have not been as clear as I should have been - I think that philosophical debate for the concept itself is not fringe per se, and there is a robust debate on the topic, which is still in the article and I think should stay there, especially the debate with respect to the human brain. But claiming to have definitively made observations of strong emergence in physics is what I intended to characterize as fringe, which lands fairly closely to the idea of vitalism. - car chasm (talk) 21:03, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aha, thanks for the clarification. Looks like we're all basically on the same page. Generalrelative (talk) 05:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article appears to be citing deeply unreliable literature, including this critical criminology piece that claims that attraction to minors is merely a form of sexual orientation akin to being gay or straight. I attempted to BLAR, but was reverted by the page's creator. Additional eyes to review the citations for fringe would be appreciated. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 03:17, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Per the result of Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Minor-attracted_person, I would recommend creating an AfD for the article. The creator, who only started editing in late March, seems to be a SPA, as all of their edits relate to pedophilia in some way. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:34, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

per google scholar the term definitely does have some use in Academia, mostly within the last few years, but I assume this is massively dwarfed by other studies that just use paedophilia. Hemiauchenia (talk) 03:52, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now up for deletion again. Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Minor-attracted_person_(2nd_nomination). Not really a good nomination rationale, and seems to be trending towards keep. Hemiauchenia (talk) 17:57, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You could have tagged me here. I would not have seen this discussion if another editor had not linked it in the current AfD.

Anyway, if you have an issue with the sourcing, consider making a source eval table or something similar to prove your point. Show us HOW the sourcing is bad, instead of just saying that it is; nitpicking a single source does not count as a substantial evaluation of the article. Besides, as I told you yesterday, this Critical Criminology source was used only a single time, to make a single statement, that had nothing to do with saying that pedophilia is a sexual orientation. The the statement that this source was supporting was the idea that the term minor-attracted person had some variations. That source was so insignificant that after the discussion that we had yesterday, in which I tried to be cordial and agreed with you that Critical Criminology did not need to be included there, I removed it from the article and didn't have to change a single word of its body because there were other reliable sources that supported that same claim relating to the variations of the term "minor-attracted person". I already told you yesterday in your talk page that the idea that pedophilia is a sexual orientation is fringe and that I had never supported that idea, it was pretty dishonest of you to come here writting this topic in a way that suggests that I had made a claim that I never actually did, especially after I had already told you in your talk page that that was a position that I never held. If you want to criticise me or the article (both of which fine), please be clear in your critique and don't nitpick a just a single source from the article. And don't accuse me of having written things that I never had. 🔥 22spears 🔥 23:24, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've repeatedly cited the author of that same piece multiple times in the article, including in the article's use of A Long Dark Shadow, "I Would Report It Even If They Have Not Committed Anything": Social Service Students’ Attitudes Toward Minor-Attracted People, and "I’m Not like That, So Am I Gay?" The Use of Queer-Spectrum Identity Labels Among Minor-Attracted People. This is an extremely WP:FRINGE set of sourcing in the article—it ain't limited to the most egregious one that's been noted above. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 04:20, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Now it's not about the journal anymore, it's about the author? Why do you keep changing you accusations each time I respond? Again, I never used any source coming from this journal or this author to promote any fringe theory, the source was to make statements regarding etymology, most of which could and often are already supported by better sources not related to that journal or author. 🔥 22spears 🔥 16:42, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Red-tailed hawk, thank you for bringing this up. The article has multiple SPAs involved with it lately, some of which have similar usernames, and feels like a POV fork. See also stigma of pedophilia created by 22spears and other articles in the topic area. It really needs closer eyes on it. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:07, 12 May 2023 (UTC) PS see also List of pedophile advocacy organizations in which I had to remove links to two different such groups, and in which an SPA described a group as "advocat[ing] for at least some age of consent reform and circulat[ing] alternative child sexual abuse testimony". Mmmkay. Crossroads ^-talk- 01:33, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Query: it's been a year or two since I've looked at any of the research surrounding this (as it's very tough reading it for obvious reasons), but isn't minor-attracted person just a euphemism for paedophilia? If that's still the case, then shouldn't this at best be a redirect to the paedophilia article or relevant subsection? Because it seems like this is maybe a WP:POVFORK . Sideswipe9th (talk) 01:55, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It definitely seems that way to me. That's what I argued at the AfD. It looks like we're dealing with a few highly motivated SPA accounts in this topic area right now, and some pretty glaring signs of socking. If anyone has tips that could be assembled into an SPI case, feel free to let me know by email. I'd be happy to put together cases. Generalrelative (talk) 02:04, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I absolutely agree with Sideswipe. Roxy the dog 19:36, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Same. DFlhb (talk) 13:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, something's up. Bon courage (talk) 14:11, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If memory serves, Flyer22 used to keep an eye on the paedo/hebe/ephebo-philia articles to weed out the sockfarms. They are unfortunately departed now, but perhaps folks who worked with them might be able to check? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:00, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand that argument. It appears to be an article about the term itself, not an article about pedophilia. If it was discussing pedophilia it would be a povfork, but it seems to be literally just discussing the phrase "minor-attracted person", which the article on pedophilia isn't? Endwise (talk) 02:19, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. I've said the same at the AfD. The idea that this is a fork does not match with the actual contents of the article. small jars tc 22:40, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think this needs to be part of a larger discussion on whether journals that specialize in critical theory and related subjects should be deprecated for not relying on empirical evidence, and instead attempting to conform to an a priori politically desired conclusion. Partofthemachine (talk) 14:57, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

missed the chance to drop a comment in the AFD. Will state here: we have an article on coprophilia (sexual attraction to feces), if people wanting to normalize this as an orientation wanted a separate article at feces-attracted person, that would amount to the same thing, and would surely not fly. Hyperbolick (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[8] - I've reverted it, the editor has brought it up at Talk:Westford Knight#Why is the new statue WP:UNDUE. There are a few sources for it, [9] Note that both Scott Wolter and Jason Calavito are mentioned in the source used[10] and see also this article by Calavito where he says that the sculptor and Wolter claimed to have discovered another Hooked X (surprise!)[11]. It might be useful for editors to reply on the talk page. Doug Weller talk 15:38, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Genetic history of Egypt (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

There's been a recent uptick in edit warring and generalized incivility on this article and its talk page, perhaps having to do with renewed attention to the topic in response to an upcoming Netflix series on Cleopatra (see e.g. [12] and [13] for coverage). Uninvolved editors with strong working knowledge of genetics would be most helpful. Generalrelative (talk) 20:16, 11 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Masrialltheway Seems to have broken WP:3RR, as seen by the string of reverts he has done here.

@24.228.27.179 Casually called an user a White Supremacist on the talk page, this probably also warrants a warning or short block.

The discussion doesn't seem that bad to me, just put some warning templates on the new users' profiles and they will understand the message and start to behave. 🔥 22spears 🔥 00:06, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Article has always been pretty contentious, I gave up and took it off my watchlist. Doug Weller talk 08:27, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is this a legitimate organization? I have to say I'm very confused at the mere existence of cybernetics after the 1950s, but their website seems really full of woo, such as reinventing philosophy, global brains, pantheism, explaining not just evolution, but also abiogenesis! I'm concerned about the extent to which the content on wikipedia about systems theory and cybernetics seems to mirror this site. - car chasm (talk) 05:17, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of those pages genuinely are concerning, but websites of other small professional organizations sometimes have some woo on them, so I don't think we can go exclusively on that.

My general principle here is that we should never have a page on an organization cited entirely or primarily to its own website. So, the best thing to do is to find some reliable third-party sources to see what their reputation is overall. A quick Google doesn't really turn up much, which is concerning, and makes me suspect they wouldn't have the notability to survive AFD. Loki (talk) 00:39, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like this edit[14] added a lot of fringe material relying on dubious sources. I've dealt with a little bit but it needs more and I don't have time right now. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 10:44, 12 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, it should be the section Pre-Columbian transoceanic contact theories#Claims of pre-Columbian contact with Christian voyagers.

2007 Alderney UFO sighting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Oh dear. This one slipped past our "radar", it seems. Full of absurd credulity and terrible sourcing.

@JMK: who is the main author. Might be worth checking those contributions as well.

jps (talk) 13:06, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, you know what?

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2007 Alderney UFO sighting.

I think we should WP:TNT this. jps (talk) 13:12, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This note has been accused of being WP:CANVASSing. Further machinations continue at both the article and the AfD. I have also found a small discussion in a UFO forum encouraging people to comment at the AfD to get it kept. Sigh. jps (talk) 18:11, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ජපස, did you see the Journal of Scientific Exploration article "Unusual Atmospheric Phenomena Observed Near Channel Islands, UK, 23 April 2007", a little bit more discussion than Clarke has in The UFO Files? fiveby(zero) 20:27, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

For sure. I'm not particularly enthused that Clarke, an expert in (check notes) folklore, is declaring that this nothing burger was "unusual atmospheric phenomena". It might be, but it also might be, I don't know, window glint. When it is only eyewitness testimony of UFOs, attempting to say anything about the situation is basically impossible. jps (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You both know this, but I note for other readers that the Journal of Scientific Exploration is a mouthpiece of the unquestionably pro-woo Society for Scientific Exploration, and as such should not be considered a reliable source for anything. An examination of some 2022 issues reveals that it promotes perpetual motion machines, parapsychology, the Loch Ness monster...and I think I'll end the list right there. The only question I have is whether it is more laughable than Rudy Schild's Journal of Cosmology. You know, the journal with "scientific" articles that claim to have discovered extraterrestrial life within meteorites. JoJo Anthrax (talk) 18:36, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

To its credit, JSE sometimes publishes skeptical takedowns. It's pretty unusual, though. JoC is (was?) only propaganda and even published bizarre cartoonish slander against PZ Myers. Completely different league. jps (talk) 23:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

UFO sightings in South Africa

UFO sightings in South Africa (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Same author, similar issues. Sourcing is atrocious. I notice some have been active cleaning things up, but a lot of cruft remains (sourcing to obscure newspaper articles, trade journals, and even Lonely Planet).jps (talk) 15:30, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/UFO sightings in Thailand.

Sigh.

jps (talk) 15:40, 13 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Lancet MMR autism fraud (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch
• MMR vaccine and autism (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Recent high some-say-this-some-say-that activity. --Hob Gadling (talk) 09:28, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ah I see its time for the annual anti-vax 'Wakefield totes is not a giant fraudypants' cycle. Only in death does duty end (talk) 10:56, 14 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'd appreciate third opinions on these two newly created articles and their respective DYKs:

• Giant skeletons (United States) (Template:Did you know nominations/Giant skeletons (United States))
• Giantology (Template:Did_you_know_nominations/Giantology)

I'm concerned they gave more credence to this fringe theory than is warranted. – Joe (talk) 12:09, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think that reports of 10 foot tall giants from newpaper articles from 1885 (!) should be stated in Wikivoice.  Tewdar  12:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Please respond at Template:Did you know nominations/Giant skeletons (United States). I’ve done as much as I can tonight. Thanks. Doug Weller talk 18:58, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I started both of these articles. They are well sourced and accurate. I am disappointed in the rapid fire AfD !votes and the gigantic stop sign shutdown of the DYK nomination. Clearly like minded people are being called to action with this notice so I mentioned it at both the DYK nomination and the AfD. Bruxton (talk) 20:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Glancing over it there seem to be multiple issues related to sourcing and accuracy. For instance: The first sentence states the wrong centuries. The bulk of the article cites tabloid articles. The "Background" section isn't about the background, and starts with "As early as 1859 it was reported", when the Columbus Dispatcher source you use later says "as early as 1845". Hypnôs (talk) 21:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Hypnôs:, what you describe are WP:SURMOUNTABLE issues. And I think the bulk of the RS is from newspaper articles. No redlined sources. Bruxton (talk) 21:40, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tabloids are usually questionable. They are not redlined, but that's the case for most non-reliable sources. Hypnôs (talk) 21:56, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your understanding of article sourcing seems well out of whack to what would be expected per WP:RS. Hemiauchenia (talk) 22:05, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There might be a very good article titled giantology, but it ain't this one. fiveby(zero) 00:01, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• I took a look at Giant skeletons (United States), and as others have mentioned, it seems to be mostly sourced to poor quality tabloids or newspapers. It doesn't look like it was seriously discussed in high quality sources. With that problem, it's looking like it may be an AfD candidate if not major pruning. Curious what others think here. KoA (talk) 03:04, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I agree with thinking of Giant skeletons (United States) as a possible AfD candidate. Its notability is certainly questionable in that it lacks high quality sources. Summarizing old tabloid and newspaper articles does not give the topic notability. Maybe change the title and remove all outdated material sourced to articles written between 1868 and 2020. Wikipedia is not a repository for indiscriminate information. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 04:06, 16 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I disagree. At least two U.S. presidents believed this and it was influential for 1800s North America. The article is just missing context (that scholarly sources would provide). The significance of these giant skeletons being found in Native American burial mounds is that the white power structures embraced the narrative that a primeval race of people (white, giant, or both) built the impressive structures in the Mississippi river valley, and were then exterminated by the Native Americans (who were in reality the descendants of the mound builders). Doug Weller covered it in Archaeology and racism on Wikipedia (dope article btw). Jason Colavito released a book on it a couple years back, which looks dope but I haven't read it. I think Edwards Watts covers it in Colonizing the Past: Mythmaking and Pre-Columbian Whites in Nineteenth-Century American Writing. There are also scholarly sources that connect the white supremacist mythology of the 1800s to some of the modern conspiracies and hoaxes like Contested Indigenous Landscapes: Indian Mounds and the Political Creation of the Mythical "Mound Builder" Race. Bruxton, have you come across this stuff yet? I think the context would improve the article. Regards, Rjjiii (talk) 03:10, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjjiii: Thank you for the comments and the ping. I appreciate your efforts and interesting comments above. At the moment KOA and Brunton have erased all the background/news articles from Giant skeletons (United States). I tried to restore the research as necessary background but at this point I have to walk away from this article so I do not get in trouble for edit warring. I have attempted to invite the editors to the talk page but was unsuccessful. FYIL Doug Weller came to my talk page and said he thought the Giant skeletons "article is a good one and a useful addition to Wikipedia". I will read the article he started which you referenced above. Have a great week! Bruxton (talk) 04:29, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Rjjiii: — If someone were to use the sources you provided this might turn out to be a much better article. ----Steve Quinn (talk) 13:06, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Same as giantology, the good content here is description of the pre-20th erudite arguments for existence of a giant race or that humans were larger in the past. Add to giant first, then sub-article if needed. Afd this after the current runs its course? fiveby(zero) 16:09, 17 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Pathological science has been nominated for possible deletion, merging, or renaming. A discussion is taking place to decide whether this proposal complies with the categorization guidelines. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the categories for discussion page. Thank you. –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 19:42, 15 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Donald Trump § Testing and unproven treatments (Misinformation) in the lead. — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC) — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 15:27, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some users have expressed a desire to remove the current mention of promoting "unproven treatments" or spreading misinformation re: treatments from the lead of Donald Trump when discussing his COVID response. Any and all outside input would be appreciated in properly determining what is WP:DUE inclusion here.

@KoA@Jayron32@FormalDude@Slatersteven @other FTN regulars who have been interested in this talk page in the past — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:13, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is about [15]. Please chime in. tgeorgescu (talk) 03:02, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The scholarly consensus seems quite clear and putting a minority theory in the lede is WP:UNDUE/WP:FALSEBALANCE. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:49, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The diff you point to is a simple misrepresentation of the source. Once an editor does that, it should be just WP:RBI instead of having to argue with them. fiveby(zero) 14:09, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Indian psychology appears to be yet another article on transpersonal psychology. It has no apparent connection to anything of any actual scientific value, and from the citations it seems like it may just be the invention of a few isolated people. Is there anything worth salvaging or should it be AfD'd? - car chasm (talk) 08:25, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not surprisingly, it's a giant stew of WP:FRINGE theories, mostly sourced to fringe sources, with very little in the way of response to most of them. I've tagged the article. -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely needs a heavy overhaul. Lots and lots of obscure proFRINGE content all over the place. Will take a look when I get a chance, but cannot do it alone — Shibbolethink ^{(♔ ♕)} 18:16, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I recommend Vincent Bugliosi's Reclaiming History for anyone looking at Kennedy conspiracy theories. It's probably the gold standard when it comes to demolishing kookery of that sort. Most well stocked library systems will have a copy. Ad Orientem (talk) 18:45, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeesh, what a mess! Needs a major overhaul, perhaps organized roughly-chronologically through Gallup polls 1963-64, Buchanan 63, Lane 66, HSCA, Marrs & Stone, etc; Refuting each's claims as they get more elaborate. Feoffer (talk) 22:52, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• A. E. Wilder-Smith (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Is there a source saying that this creationist was a three-star general? I find nothing useful on the net. Only German Wikipedia, which is not RS, and obvious copies of it. IPs keep adding the general bit and deleting other stuff. --Hob Gadling (talk) 16:19, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He claims so in his autobiography. Oh that's already on the talk page. Had to be some kind of rank equivalency and not a real rank. fiveby(zero) 16:47, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I am finding no records for a Wilder-Smith of such a rank (or anything approaching) in British service in those years. I also doubt its a rank equivalent, in a uniformed medical service a three star equivalent would likely be the top dog and there is no indication that Wilder-Smith ever was such a top dog or even served in a uniformed medical service. There is no such thing as an "advisor" "with the rank of a three star general," not within NATO and not anywhere to the best of my knowledge. All things equal I think Wilder-Smith is telling a fib, there really isn't another logical conclusion. In general this probably means that we can't use him for WP:ABOUTSELF (there are a lot of other extraordinary achievements in that bio, all seemingly sourced to Wilder-Smith himself). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:31, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Grover Furr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

New activity by new user, "proving the truth", removing "negationism" and moving the article towards something Stalin would have liked. That is not necessarily bad, depending on whether there was really an "anti-Stalin bias", but it may need checking by historians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 06:51, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A new user with the username "TheVictoryOfTheProletariat" making blatantly pro-Stalin edits?

I think you're perfectly safe just blatantly reverting them. Remember, AGF isn't a suicide pact, and this user is not worth wasting your time on. 2601:18F:107F:E2A0:3C73:875F:3BDB:E988 (talk) 17:45, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A fringe mess, not sure what to do to fix it. Doug Weller talk 09:07, 26 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I have no knowledge of the stones, but it seems like they're either notable because of their actual historicity or, if the mainstream consensus is that they're a hoax, that's notable too. Other than that, I think it needs a good copy edit. Do you have specific concerns? voorts (talk/contributions) 02:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Voorts I find the article confusing - as you say, it needs a good copyedit. Not sure about some of the sources either, eg Haaretz - unless Ruth Schuster is an expert, I don't think we should use it. Or El Nuevo Día - or any of the media sources which seem to be most of them. Not sure about the YouTube video by Reniel Rodríguez Ramos which is used 39 times. There's a whole section sourced to Barry Fell. Minor things such as calling someone a scholar. I wish I had more time. Doug Weller talk 09:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think perhaps tagging the article with {{cleanup rewrite}} and {{POV}}, and starting a discussion on the talk page might be the way to go if you don't have the time to start fixing things up yourself. For the sources, maybe RSN can weigh in before tagging the article (or appropriate sections) with {{unreliable sources}}. voorts (talk/contributions) 12:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The pieces have been studied by several PhDs in archeology and other legit scientific fields, several have been dated by C14 by legitimate institutions, this is not “fringe” by any meaning. This is not a Ron Wyatt situation. The term “lost civilization” does not refer to Atlantis or anything of the sort, but to an Amerindian group that has yet to be further documented in the Antilles. The article makes it clear that Reniel Rodríguez actually falsified the “European origin” hypotheses, but you can’t write a piece about something that was discovered in the 1800s without mentioning the backstory and the priest is not mentioned as an authority in archeology. If you want to copy edit it or remove Haaretz go ahead. That particular reference is merely there to source a specific point in time and in it he actually distanced the pieces from an European origin. But do not get rid of those that are from the Instituto de Cultura Puertorriqueña (government), Centro de Estudios Avanzados (academia, the “YouTube video used 39 times”) just because you are unfamiliar with them or the topic. El Nuevo Día is Puerto Rico’s main newspaper, with a longstanding editorial board, no notable political leaning and decades of distribution, its reliability should be self-evident. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 12:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

About calling C.B.F. Walker a “scholar”, I have no issues with it being removed, but the man is a prolific author in his field and his work in the British Museum justifies using the term IMO. Barry Fell is never called a “scholar”, I specifically used the term “author” when referring to him to make it clear that he is not an authority in the subject. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 12:45, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Old School WWC Fan I don't think any newspaper is reliable for archaeology, something I think we've discussed at that Wikiproject. People get misquoted, news articles get outdated but without academic sources we don't know that, etc. I don't think we should call anyone a scholar - note that even the most famous people with PhDs are not called Dr. in their article (there may be some, there shouldn't be per our MOS. I don't see the point of a large section on Fell. Doug Weller talk 13:56, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It seems like this is really an WP:RS dispute. Maybe this should be moved to the article talk page for other editors to weigh in, and failing consensus there, RSN could be consulted. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Old School WWC Fan, other than a biography of Alice Loughran de Santiago, i can't find anything actually published by Rodríguez Ramos concerning his work on the collection. Do you know of anything? fiveby(zero) 15:18, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are several, “La huella femenina en el coleccionismo arqueológico de Puerto Rico” (link) is one, the initial catalogue of the authenticated pieces (link) is another. There are also articles in recent issues of the Instituto de Cultura Puertorriqueña’s magazine as well, but I don’t think they are online. Old School WWC Fan (talk) 15:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, yes "La huella femenina..." was the biography i was referring to, which is certainly usable for the history of the collection. That is an interesting story and i think very appropriate for WP. But you do understand the concern, so much of the content dealing with an investigation that is as of yet unpublished, and relying on news accounts and a video? Revista del ICP up to 2021 is available but not searchable. Do you know any publication dates for any articles? fiveby(zero) 16:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Salvatore Pais (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article on a aerospace engineer could use some more eyes - especially whether the article should speculate that Pais invented technology used in UFOs and whether we should link to youtube videos claiming that. MrOllie (talk) 12:44, 27 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

YouTube links and Forbes contributors are not considered reliable sources. Another red flag is that a number of WP:EXTRAORDINARY claims are sourced only to thedrive.com. One would expect wider attention for such allegedly groundbreaking technology. - LuckyLouie (talk) 14:00, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looking closer, I find myself wondering if this BLP fails WP:PROF. There are an awful lot of WP:PRIMARY citations to Pais papers and patents. The Popular Mechanics source mentions Pais, but only in passing within a discussion of the technology. The coverage is all about the speculative technology -- there are few if any details about Pais as a person -- not what you'd need for a BLP. - LuckyLouie (talk) 17:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Tim Noakes (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Lots in play here: fad dieting, MMR/autism, hyrdoxychlooquine, and the assertion that COVID-as-bioweapon is now an "accepted theory". More eyes might help. Bon courage (talk) 07:04, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

In the low-carb movement there is a large group of 'public figures' including Tim Noakes, Aseem Malhotra, Malcolm Kendrick, Ivor Cummins, Marika Sboros, Gary Fettke, Maryanne Demasi etc that openly promote cholesterol and statin denialism but have branched out into advocating and supporting conspiracy theories about COVID-19 and vaccines. These figures have often made pseudoscientific remarks about vaccines on Twitter and have questioned COVID-19 vaccination. However, when they are pinned down on the subject they say anti-vax is a smear word and they are not anti-vax and they are being libelled as anti-vax and they are not anti-vax (!). The user Ratel has fallen hook line and sinker to this in the sense that he claims Tim Noakes is being attacked this way by critics, and is citing primary sources on the article such as "The Noakes Foundation" to defend Noakes. I suggest that we do not include such unreliable primary sources. Psychologist Guy (talk) 09:57, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Too many noticeboards: note that this issue is simultaneously at Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, here. The BLPN discussion was opened slightly earlier, and is already long, so I suggest keeping the discussion there — though perhaps not, as I admit it may be a better fit here. Anyway, it surely shouldn't be in two places. Thoughts? Bishonen | tålk 10:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC).[reply]

  You could argue there are two aspects: the biographical and the fringe science ones. I am very alarmed that a new bit of BLP (WP:DENIAL the text "If the subject has denied such allegations, their denial(s) should be reported too") seems to being interpreted in a way that would require fringe figures to have a "right of reply" on Wikipedia to any criticism of their fringe theories. Bon courage (talk) 11:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  At the very least, we need to tell Ratel (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) that this conversation is happening. I notice that their latest contribution to the article looks to be essentially a coatrack. What is more, they are arguing on the talkpage now that a letter from respected physicians of the University of Cape Town should not be included in the article because "It's just some members of the establishment "distancing themselves" from Noakes. We already know about this. And Noakes has extensively defended himself concerning that letter. It's going to clog up the article with repetition." I have noticed that no one has given them notice of arbcom restrictions. I will put a notice on their talkpage now as well. jps (talk) 11:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

If you WP:CENSOR a professor of medicine who is advocating a new approach to diet that he has found works, and whose theories incidentally echo good, current science from colleagues like Prof Richard Johnson and many others, you are damaging WPs utility IMO. If you think Johnson is fringe, then I will concede Noakes is too. If not, put your critics' words in the article, but don't censor. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Amazingly, Dr Johnson, author of several books and author of an incredible amount of key medical research, is not on WP. I'm starting to see why. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:11, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, what relevance does Richard Johnson have to this discussion? I cannot find evidence that Noakes and Johnson are collaborators or that Johnson or Noakes has ever commented on the work/statements of the other. jps (talk) 12:12, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I never said they were collaborators. Johnson is a much-venerated member of the current medical establishment, and yet his research is trending exactly the same way as Noakes. Johnson's latest books make almost identical recommendations, based on solid recent research, and nobody is calling him "fringe" that I am aware of. If he is not fringe, nor is Noakes. They even recommend the same dietary restrictions and daily carb limits! Do some research and you'll see I am right. It's just downright WRONG to put Noakes on a FRINGE noticeboard! Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:20, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Why is this relevant? AFAIK Johnson writes pop-science books, but he doesn't dabble in antivax, COVID quackery and conspiracy theories so why is he relevant to this discussion/noticeboard? Bon courage (talk) 12:24, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Noakes has not dabbled in antivax, ffs, he linked to a tweet. That's his level of involvement. He has no core interest in any of the fringe stuff. Stop the witch hunt already. And BTW Johnson is not a pop-science write, he has around (700+) at GOOGLE SCHOLAR [18] . Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:43, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This is somebody that has been saying that there is evidence that vaccines cause autism since before the COVID pandemic started. MrOllie (talk) 12:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I found a 140 page preprint by Brett Chrest which documents a lot of the anti-vax commentary coming from Noakes. Not usable as a direct source, but there seem to be some sources cited in that document which may be useful. jps (talk) 12:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can restate that he has retweeted/linked to stuff that is antivax, although at the same time expressing general total support for vaccination. I'm not sure what to conclude about that — I think perhaps because of his diet battles he likes mavericks and people who seem to be truth-tellers and whistle blowers, perhaps unwisely — or that it will add more to a BLP of a man who has never published in the field of vaccines and is known for sports medicine and diet. At some point it becomes a hatchet job on your part, no? Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:39, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Our job is to inform the reader about what reliable sources say about a subject. That Noakes has aligned himself with vaccine misinformation and other dubious medical claims seems fairly well-documented. This also includes his continued advocacy of paleo-diets, atkins diets, etc. As is often the case, when someone starts going rogue in thumbing their nose at experts, there often is no bottom. We have seen similar stories to this many times before. I think our readers deserve to know about it. The exact editorial decisions for what wording, sources, and WP:WEIGHT to apply to such matters is wherein lies the rub. jps (talk) 12:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Even the ridiculous unpublished paper you linked on this was equivocal in its findings, so your "fairly well documented" claim is OR. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What makes the paper "ridiculous"? What did you find "equivocal" in its findings? This isn't just Noakes "linking" to antivax sources. In many instances he parrots their talking points! This doesn't even require interpretation. It's just a fact. jps (talk) 12:55, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's a very common step when people's work isn't accepted by the mainstream, a signpost that their credibility is spiraling lower. MrOllie (talk) 12:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Or perhaps they get peed off when ganged up on and start giving a thumbs up to other people that seem to be getting the same treatment? Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be magnetising out beyond bio/medicine too.[19]

Noakes, an emeritus professor in the Division of Exercise Science and Sports Medicine at the University of Cape Town (UCT), uses his Twitter profile to regularly share posts opposed to Covid-19 vaccination (and associated conspiracies) and to promote climate change denialism and American right-wing views.

Bon courage (talk) 12:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

He has removed that tweet. Do we need a section in his BLP called Offensive tweets? Because that's what all the accusations here amount to. His BLP is about his work and his discoveries. Some people like Musk and Noakes are their own biggest enemies on social media. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's more to it than that. He often repeats their claims in interviews as well. jps (talk) 13:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia mirrors what RS does. It seems the gays=pedos tweet garnered quite a bit of interest in several sources. Bon courage (talk) 13:03, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Like others say here, we need to reflect what the reliable sources say. It seems he has recieved some amount of coverage in sources for fringe views, so his biography will have to reflect this (provided it complies with various policies etc.) Tristario (talk) 15:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You're not kidding. I notice that his latest retweet is of Steve Bannon and Naomi Wolf having a conversation about "mass murder" via vaccination. jps (talk) 13:02, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think antivaxers are especially put-upon. Do you? The only justification I can think of for defending them would be to accept that they are making valid points. That sounds like antivax apology by another name. jps (talk) 12:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Pardon me, but is the person in question an advocate of fringe theories? Does he publish papers or websites about them? Or does he retweet inflammatory stuff, perhaps for the attention he knows it will garner? (He's even admitted to doing this and enjoying the brouhaha, I can find the source tomorrow for this if you like). I suspect you are all falling for it. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 13:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not a question for us. What do the sources say? Bon courage (talk) 13:11, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Will get the source for the fact that he trolls people tomorrow. Real life beckons .... Ratel 🌼 (talk) 13:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be publishing fringe stuff in HuffPo rather than in journals.[20] Bon courage (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• His Twitter feed includes retweets of Real America's Voice, Jordan Peterson, antivaxers, apologists for the Russian invasion of Ukraine, COVID-deniers... if this is an elaborate troll act, it is one that is pretty one-sided. jps (talk) 13:17, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Tim Noakes is also now advocating the carnivore diet with Shawn Baker [21]. None of this is trolling it's what he actually believes. Psychologist Guy (talk) 13:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Being a twit should be a CSD criteria for biographies. fiveby(zero) 16:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  I am convinced it would be better if quite a few of Wikipedia's fringe bios did not exist. But once they're there they're pretty much undeletable sadly. Malcolm Kendrick was an exception. Bon courage (talk) 16:30, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Feel free to AfD it. If a person is barely-notable enough that a press-release-style article could be written, but not notable enough that a proper, balanced overview could be written, then I'd say it's fair enough to go WP:IAR. Though WP:NPROF would make it an uphill battle. DFlhb (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Well, that probably won't work, the accepted test for inclusion in the "sum[mary] of all human knowledge" has become notability via google search. fiveby(zero) 17:36, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Fascinatingly, I think his co-author, Marika Sboros, has broken with him. Her Twitter feed seems like it is a direct response to Noakes's. She has even positively retweeted Alastair McAlpine which was the doctor she and Noakes were most angrily rebutting two years ago. Anyone have any more information on this? Sourcing is incredibly weak. jps (talk) 22:41, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Marika Sboros is still very close to Tim Noakes and supports his dietary views (you can check her website foodmed.net), the only topic that separates them now is that Marika Sboros spends most of her time on Twitter criticizing anti-vaxxers. This was because 2 years ago she was criticized for making anti-vax comments herself. Psychologist Guy (talk) 22:52, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

She definitely used to be very close to Tim Noakes, but I don't think she is any more. I mean, she's commenting positively on McAlpine's tweets. This is the guy that took them to task. I checked her website and it looks like a transformation occurred about 2 years ago or so towards much more mainstream approaches. I have hearsay evidence that this break may have been caused because Noakes bought the claim by Donald Trump that the election was rigged and Sboros is adamant that this claim is a lie. I also see her tweeting that climate change is real. I think the split is real. jps (talk) 23:59, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Editor ජපස supplied a link yesterday to an article in which Noakes clearly relishes the controversies he is able to create and the reactions he is getting. I'm not sure if Noakes is trolling, suffering dementia or merely very misinformed, but I am not in the business of defending him from criticism relating to any of: homophobia, climate or Covid denialism, alt-vax views, or anything away from the primary remit of human physiology in relation to diet. I was unaware of all the crazy and I thank you all for bringing it to my attention. However, I must disagree that even though his dietary views differ markedly from the generally accepted (for now) views of nutritionists, his views are therefore "fringe". They are not as fringe as you imagine. Once again I direct you to the emerging science on carbohydrates such as can be found in the studies published in the last 10 years. A good example of this is the research published by Prof. Richard Johnson, as I mentioned (if you are not comfortable with PubMed and journals, you can access his research findings effortlessly via platforms like YouTube). And he is one of many. There is a lot of foment on this topic at the moment in the scientific world, a lot of confusion and indecision. Nevertheless, I don't have the time to devote to bringing some semblance of fairness to Noakes's BLP here, pointing out his denials (which just get deleted) and providing more details of the diet he advocates (which is followed by tens of thousands of people in South Africa, BTW, many of whom claim to have lost significant amounts of weight), which also just gets removed within minutes of being inserted. There is some blatantly biased editing going on there, where some Noakes-critical material sourced to news24.com is allowed but when I use the same source for details of the "Noakes Diet" it is deleted. I cannot persevere in the face of this sort of arbitrary fuckery. I'm sure if I reinserted the diet with sourcing to the Noakes book on the topic, that too would be removed for some other specious reason. Maybe in the future, when and if Big Agribusiness allows the recognition of the source of the global obesity disaster as the recommendation (which Agribusiness has supported by funding studies) to eat large amounts of carbs, the editors here will start allowing these facts to be recorded in BLPs without labelling them as fringe. Meanwhile, I can now see why eminent scientists like Johnson have no page on WP. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 01:04, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Be a little introspective here. You have written what I think essentially amounts to a right great wrongs essay. Fad diets are fringe. Maybe you believe everything you wrote, but what you wrote is essentially WP:PROFRINGE until you find the WP:MAINSTREAM sources that back it up. Them's the breaks at this website. As others have pointed out, it is not surprising that Noakes has fallen off the deep end. I am glad that you are swimming against that stream. Keep kicking! jps (talk) 01:47, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Reads like an apologia for fad diets. The science behind LCHF for obesity (Noakes' main schtick) is well-established and covered at Low-carb diet (TL;DR - don't believe the hype). Obviously we can't have Noakes' diet sourced to his own book because reflecting fad dietary advice is not encyclopedic or in any way aligned with the Project's goals. We also have an article on Healthy diet for the science there. Bon courage (talk) 01:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

What I find interesting here is that this argumentation is so close to the ones made at Talk:The Game Changers except there the argument was that big agri along with big meat and big dairy was stifling one-true-truth about the vegan diet. Same level of insistence, just the opposite side. It must be exhausting being a dietician. jps (talk) 02:01, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ ජපස The Low-carb diet page contains the researcher conclusion that "the rise in obesity prevalence may be primarily due to increased consumption of refined carbohydrates". Seems to run counter to the group-think I'm getting here. I also note that the low-carb article lacks a lot of recent research and findings that run counter to the idea that low-carb and low-cal essentially achieve the same ends and are equally effective. As I said, you conclude Noakes's promotion of the Banting Diet is "fringe" at your peril. The science is anything but settled on this issue. I know this makes absolutists uncomfortable, but sorry, that's how things are, for now. I will revisit this issue in a few years when these facts become more accepted and studied, and I have review studies to use as sources. Ratel 🌼 (talk) 02:39, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to think I have an iron in this fire that I simply do not. Maybe you are right and all will be vindicated! A Nature paper will be published and a Nobel Prize in Medicine will be awarded! But until then, our hands are tied by WP:CBALL. Also, you seem to be adopting a much broader concern over this issue than that which started the conversation (about Noakes's biography). Might I suggest that you are perhaps running afoul of WP:ADVOCACY in this area? Nevertheless, I can totally get behind your idea that we should wait a few years to see if you're vindicated. I'm even willing to place a small bet on it. Ping me at my talkpage if that tickles your fancy. jps (talk) 02:48, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recently the American Heart Foundation published a review which ranked diets and the low-carb/keto type diets scored 31/100 for healthfulness, which was extremely low compared to Mediterranean and vegetarian type diets [22] which scored very high (80s and 90s). This source does need to be added to the low-carb diet Wikipedia article. I mentioned it on Bon Courage's talk-page. Basically if you care about your health you should avoid low-carb fads. Psychologist Guy (talk) 03:12, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This guy promotes a type of carnivore diet but only gained media attention after he admitted to steroid use. I am thinking it might be worth to take this to afd. Any thoughts about this one? Psychologist Guy (talk) 17:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Is there any place that might be a good merge target? Carnivore diet perhaps? jps (talk) 18:29, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Honesty, I think they pass WP:SUSTAINED, as there has been news coverage of him as recently as this month [23], significantly later than the steroid scandal. talk) 18:54, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Proactively taking this here due to a potential dispute, but Institute of Noetic Sciences seems to be a rather clear-cut case of WP:FRINGE, no? I'm in the process of splitting out various parapsychology articles from well-regarded academic studies of consciousness in neuroscience, cogsci, and philosophy of mind and I've gotten a bit of friction here.

For what it's worth, the parapsychology people rarely use consciousness in the way that academic researchers use it anyway (interiority, basically), and mostly are either talking about reincarnation or perception, but it seems like parapsychology pages shouldn't be categorized or listed in with legitimate researchers either way per WP:ONEWAY. - car chasm (talk) 19:08, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Unequivocally. IONS is a somewhat notorious outfit for promoting pseudoscience. jps (talk) 21:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone else try to explain to this editor (Carchasm) that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert surely fit category:American consciousness researchers and theorists. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I've added the psuedoscience/medicine template. -Ad Orientem (talk) 22:16, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not unless we're also adding Richard C. Hoagland to Category:American astronomers while we're at it, no they don't. Writing books about all of the drugs you did in the 60s doesn't put you in the same category as Daniel Dennett unless your contributions are accepted by the broader academic community. - car chasm (talk) 22:25, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This comment shows that you do not know the two researchers relationship to the topic. Leary and Alpert did pioneering work in consciousness research and theory. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:35, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I supposed it's good we took this to this noticeboard since we disagree on this. To get everyone else's input - we would also consider the "pioneering work" Eight-circuit model of consciousness to be WP:FRINGE as well, correct? Considering the other names involved seem to mostly be involved with chaos magic and parapsychology rather than neuroscience or cognitive science this seems pretty clear-cut to me? - car chasm (talk) 22:49, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

We didn't take Leary and Alpert here, I did, and now it seems you may be doing revenge editing by throwing an undue weight tag at Eight-circuit model of consciousness citing fringe. Do you really know who Leary was and the work he did? Please remove that tag and maybe consider taking a day (a week?) off to study Leary's full contributions to consciousness research and theory. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 23:01, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Alpert and Leary were doing what they termed "consciousness research" those decades past, but I think now that is more properly aligned with altered states of consciousness and psychadelics. Today, this kind of research is more closely matching pharmacology instead of what is actually studied by those who are interested in consciousness. Even the most woolly philosophers (and, boy, are there some woolly ones!) do not consider Leary's or Alpert's ideas as being worth serious consideration. jps (talk) 23:07, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, even David Chalmers, who tends to be one of the more... "open-minded" philosophers of mind, doesn't mention Leary or Alpert in The Conscious Mind even once! - car chasm (talk) 23:44, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eight-circuit model of consciousness

Eight-circuit model of consciousness (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This is an article that needs a clean-up, for sure. It also lacks contextualization and makes some pretty outlandish (in the sense of WP:ECREE claims! jps (talk) 23:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, what led me to tag it was the number of seemingly outlandish biological claims, along with the association with chaos magic. I mean... psychic abilities? Quantum psychology? And it looks like almost all of the references are sources to the claimed originators of the theory. - car chasm (talk) 23:21, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think it may have influenced more pop music and movies than it has influenced actual academic research, but sourcing on this is pretty weak. There is so much written about Timothy Leary and his ideas and so little of it is useful for our purposes. jps (talk) 23:28, 28 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The chaos magic information is a later adoption by others. The page is about Leary's theory and its main adherents during Leary's lifetime. Leary, as far as I know, is not considered fringe nor is this a fringe theory but another way of looking at consciousness. Theories don't have to be proven correct to be notable, they are theories, and this one, which seems more of a map and another way of ordering and explaining consciousness, is only part of Leary's research and ideas. If the current field shows little interest in the description and ordering outlined by Leary that just leaves more room for things like chaos magic to claim it but does not imply that the theory is without value. Hence, Leary fits the category which there is presently an edit war over (I've asked the editor to stop the war, but they continue), the totally applicable category "American consciousness researchers and theorists". Randy Kryn (talk) 03:21, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

So you do admit at this point that "the current field shows little interest" at this point, no? So little interest, in fact, that chaos magic has claimed it? I'm not sure how that wouldn't constitute WP:FRINGE, this is starting to look like WP:IDHT. - car chasm (talk) 03:30, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You should have no say in these topics. You admitted above that you removed the pertinent category from Leary because you see him as a 1960s drug user and you are instigating an ongoing edit war (unless you've stopped). The page is about a model (the word is included in the name). Maybe the present field has an interest, I have no idea, just taking the word of commentators here. But labeling an adequate model as fringe when Leary himself is not considered a fringe figure (i.e. his ideas have merit) would be a misuse of fringe as a descriptor. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:40, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"In Wikipedia parlance, the term fringe theory is used in a very broad sense to describe an idea that departs significantly from the prevailing views or mainstream views in its particular field." - car chasm (talk) 03:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]