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Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Zakat. Steven Zhang ^{The clock is ticking....}

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? (Please provide a few diffs if this is regarding conduct and ensure that you have discussed the issues on a talk page first.)

• An editor named RGCorris is insistent on adding what I believe to be false information to the article Airconditioning, and has been increasingly hostile about the issue. The Status Quo version of the article stated that the song "What Happens When You Blow Yourself Up" appeared as the b-side to the single "It Happened Today". RGCorris deleted this information and replaced it with the statement that it was the second track on the a-side. His edit summary read only "correct data re single", so I reverted the edit with a note saying that the version with "What Happens" on the b-side is at least the more common version. He reverted the edit back and left a note on Talk: Airconditioning warning editors not to revert the claim without providing a referenced source. Neither his edit summary nor his note gave any reason why he believed the preexisting information in the article to be false, not even an "I heard it somewhere", but I decided the best way to avoid a fight would be to simply humor him and add the requested reference. However, this only made him more hostile. He immediately reverted the article back to his version and posted a rant in which he accused me of lying about the relevant single and of getting the information I referenced second hand. He has since allowed the statement "'What Happens' was a b-side" to remain, but has added the claim that it was also an a-side, listing as a source a website which actually lists both versions of the single with "What Happens" as a b-side. When I pointed out to him that the source he cited says the opposite of his claim, he quoted back a listing with "What Happens" as a b-side and claimed that this proves that it was an a-side. At this point, I don't think there's any hope of my reasoning skills getting through to him(and incidentally, I would appreciate any constructive criticism on said reasoning skills, so as to avoid my having to resort to this noticeboard in the future). The issue of "What Happens" as an a-side is trivial, and I have little problem with allowing that claim to remain in the article, but RGCorris's behavior in the dispute upsets me. I don't want to have to continue with my work on the Curved Air-related articles with the constant threat of him picking a fight with me.--Martin IIIa (talk) 14:52, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• User: RGCorris

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

• What can we do to help resolve this issue?

Discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. Editor Martin Illa was asked to provide proper references for his claim that a particular song was a b-side. Although I was able to quote the record company's catalogue reference number for the vinyl issue with it as a second track on the A-side, and offered to send him a scan of the record label, he insisted on reverting the edit, quoting a CD booklet as his source. I have since established that the track in question was a b-side in North America and the second track on the a-side in the UK, and added that information with the catalogue reference numbers for both versions. Mr Illa's aggressive responses, where he claimed that he was not my secretary and showed no interest in establishing the verifiable truth of the matter are regrettable. However IMHO the matter has now been clarified and the dispute has been resolved, with the article containing correct and verifiable data.

Mr. Illa has also made edits on various Curved Air album pages with sections left completely blank under the sub-heading, and seems to have taken umbrage when I pointed this out, claiming that he had not yet finished his editing on them. RGCorris (talk) 16:11, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it was not "his claim"; the article stated that the song is a b-side before either of us performed any edits on it.

No one should have to tell you this, but a catalogue number is not a reference, not even an unreliable one. Especially not when the available sources match that catalogue number with a record other than the one you claim exists.

I did not take umbrage on the points you mention. Indeed, as anyone reading my talk page can see, my reply to your post could not have been more laid back and friendly. Moreover, the edits you refer to are part of a project started by WP: WikiProject Albums, and I provided a clear link to this project in my edit summaries. As for being your secretary, you had just made the bizarre request that I find you a reference for a piece of information that is not anywhere in the article in question, and moreover, you did so immediately after deleting the reference you previously requested with no explanation. Against such a bizarre request, a blunt "I am not here to be your personal secretary" seemed the best way of putting an end to that side issue.

The above should make it clearer why RGCorris is making me nervous. Absolutely anything that I say to him, even "Don't worry, I'll take care of it" and "Here's the reference you asked for", is interpreted by him as an attack.

It doesn't help that he seems to have no ability to differentiate between reliable and unreliable sources. Let him correct me if I'm wrong, but his way of establishing that "What Happens" was a b-side in North America was by asking about the matter on the Curved Air fan mailing list. After rejecting the word of official album liner notes, he took a lone fan on a mailing list as an acceptable reference. For all he knows, the one who provided him that information was me.--Martin IIIa (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Quote : "First of all, it was not "his claim"; the article stated that the song is a b-side before either of us performed any edits on it." It must have been some other Martin Illa that added that information at 13:07 on 7th May 2011 then ? This dispute is unnecessary and I am at a loss why Mr Illa wants to pursue it. I bought the record in question in 1971 and still have it (along with a second copy as the original got scratched) and have quoted the details from the label; copies come up for sale regularly and I have referred Mr. Illa to one such, although he declined to look at it; the details of the release can be verified from the record company's catalogue data if necessary. I believe the article now contains correct and verifiable information. Why he wishes to pursue the argument I know not. RGCorris (talk) 12:05, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Is anyone going to help out here? The reason I brought this issue here was because, as RGCorris's above posts demonstrate, I can't get RGCorris to regard me as anything but his eternal archenemy no matter how accomodating I am to him. More back-and-forth between the two of us on this forum is only going to make things worse.--Martin IIIa (talk) 13:05, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello there - first, let me apologise for the length of time it's taken for someone to reply to this. I can sympathise with you both about this one, as it involves fact-checking of fiddly details, and on top of that, the word B-side has grown to be a little ambiguous in meaning. Let's start with the ambiguity - the word B-side has grown to mean the less-important track on a single as well as the actual flip side of the vinyl. The CD booklet reference may say the song in question is a "b-side", but there is no telling which meaning of the word they are actually using unless they state this explicitly. This means we should be wary of using it as a source. (This especially applies if RGCorris is correct in saying that the single was unusual in having two tracks on the a-side.)

The actual vinyl single, however, is an excellent source for this information. According to WP:PRIMARY, primary sources like the single itself can most definitely be used for simple fact-checking like this. It is only when making interpretations of facts that using primary sources becomes a no-no.

Then there is the matter that the versions of the single were different in the US, the UK, and Europe. Hopefully RGCorris's latest edit to the article has put this matter to rest. If either of you are still unhappy with the situation, I'll be glad to listen to your responses below. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 15:04, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately, this doesn't nearly resolve the issue. As far as the CD booklet, it doesn't merely say that the song is a b-side; it gives the full details of the single. So no ambiguity there.

I find RGCorris's claimed copy of the single to be of no help for several reasons. First, records of the time, including Warner releases, often do not boldly display which side is "A" and which is "B", and that info can only be gleaned from the record itself by examining the catalogue numbers written on the label and/or the inner rim. Thus there's a high possibility of RGCorris reading as "side A" what is in fact "side B". Second, mis-labelings and mispressings occur reasonably often(by coincidence, my own copy of Airconditioning has the tracks in the wrong order), so a single copy of a record with tracks arranged in a certain way is by no means proof that the official release of the record had them that way. Third, I have already hypothesized that the record he is talking about is an EP, not a single. The only difference between an EP and a single is that a single has only one track on side A. Since RGCorris says this record has two tracks on side A, it stands to reason that it's probably an EP. At any rate, I can't see why he would assume a record with two tracks on side A is a single.

Finally, even if the single exists in the form RGCorris says, the mere fact that it exists doesn't mean that it is signficant enough to mention in the article. After all, the article is meant to be a collection of information on the album Airconditioning, not a discography of every version of every single Curved Air released around the time.

Also, I should point out that my biggest problem with RGCorris's edit isn't the claim of the single's existance, but the fact that he has used as a citation a website which doesn't verify its existance, and in fact implies that no such single exists.--Martin IIIa (talk) 18:47, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You make very good points here. First, I agree that it is not clear whether including detailed information about the release of the single is suitable for an article about the album. However, if the track What Happens When You Blow Yourself Up was recorded at the same sessions as the other album tracks, it seems reasonable to include information about it. The balance of how much you include is a point that you must both work out through consensus. (And remember that it is always possible to create an article about the single, if it passes WP:N.)

Second, I have reviewed the talk page and the reference that RGCorris provided, and I think I have found the source of the confusion. Actually, I am surprised that neither of you seem to have noticed this. From their discography: 'All the above singles (with the exception of "Renegade") were also issued as both promo singles and as "double-A side" promos.' So it seems like the most probable explanation is that RGCorris owns one of the "double-A side" promos, and your CD booklet refers to the single proper. RGCorris, does this seem like a reasonable explanation to you?

Finally, I also agree that just using their website as a reference is not ideal, although I think the information is likely to be correct. (Is the site verified as being operated by Curved Air or their publicists? If not, we can't use it; if so, we can use it with the restrictions noted in WP:PRIMARY.) In this case, I think using both the CD booklet and the website will likely be the best solution. Let me know what you think about my suggestions. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 23:58, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? (Please provide a few diffs if this is regarding conduct and ensure that you have discussed the issues on a talk page first.)

• This mainly concerns the conduct of user:Bornking7 who says he is a representative of the group The Nation of Gods and Earths. Bornking7 has made several large scale edits to the article which have been reverted by other users [1]. I have attempted to engage him in discussion. He has been polite, but shows very little sign of understanding basic Wikipedia rules concerning NPOV, RS, acceptable prose etc. He also leaves very long "walls of text" written in an indignant manner which are very difficult to work through [2]. So far the situation is not serious, but this user believes that the group he represents is being deliberately misdescribed. His most recent edit changed the name of the founder of the organisation to "Allah" [3] [4]. There are WP:COMPETENCE issues - his edits are often misspelled and ungrammatical. Strangely he included his user signature in the article twice, but all his talk page postings are signboted.

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• User:Paul Barlow
• User:Bornking7

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? Note: You must have at least discussed the issue on a talk page.

• The issue was raised at the ANI just under a month ago [5]. Other editors offered to assist with Bornking7 (user:Blackmane; user:Hobit)

• How do you think we can help?

• I am mainly hoping for some support regarding the policy and content issues and am hoping that some editor who is rather more on Bornking7's "wavelength", as it were, may come forward to help to communicate with him before this turns into a conflict in which he identifies me as an enemy of his, or of his group, which is certainly not my intent. Paul B (talk) 18:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand. I think that the best thing to do is to let the people who are helping the user to get more knowledge. This is not really a dispute either. ~~EBE123~~ ^talk_Contribs 19:44, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I think it is a dispute, since it concerns very divergent views about the content of the article. Paul B (talk) 20:16, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It may not be a full-blown dispute yet, but we can help. It's certainly a disagreement, and AN/I is not the place for it, so why not here? One recommendation is to have Bornking read a guide we wrote up in the irc help channel, the plain and simple conflict of interest guide. It's a top to bottom walkthrough of editing, communicating, and neutrality principles and practices. Meanwhile simply revert and request a reliable source be provided for any changes, explaining that Wikipedia only operates on material that can be verified in such a source. If that doesn't work, AN/I is the unfortunate last resort. Hopefully Bornking will get the idea, but give him a few chances since new editors have a learning curve. Just repeatedly and calmly explain our policy and basic operations. Also request Bornking post short comments which include key points and references. And let's double-check the sources. If we're misrepresenting something, find some good research and clear it up. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 01:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've not been involved with the article at all but merely came across the report on ANI and popped over to Bornking's talk page to drop some advice and a few links to try to nudge him in the right direction of policy. However, it looks like that was a somewhat vain hope. I tend to avoid political and religious articles since they're often a minefield judging by the reports I've read on ANI. This really started as Bornking's misunderstanding of the policies, but with the number of times others have been trying to get him to conform to policy, it's involved into a lot of WP:IDHT. Bornking really needs to understand that no one is misrepresenting his group but neither are we able to let him run amok and do as he wishes. --Blackmane (talk) 01:56, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I too offered help and generally feel the same as Blackmane. Hobit (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

This mainly concerns the conduct of editor: Paul b. He has admitted to not really knowing anything about the Nation of Gods and Earths except that everything i have contributed is wrong. Still i have been patient. For example the NOGE is not an organization. I gave him the neutral definition of what the NOGE is and yet he keeps changing it back to organization. He is very condescending in his approach to me. He acts as if one does not know how to use reference tags correctly then there is no validity in what is being said. If facts can be considered neutral, I also explained the NOGE was not founded by Clarence 13X, it was founded by Allah. Again he changed it back. How can someone who knows nothing about a subject be the authority? Wikipedia had the NOGE listed on the NOI site as the Subsidary of the NOI. I bought that to his attention and he denied it two or three times. I had to walk him through the NOI page until he finnaly saw it for himself. You can go to the talk page and see the discussion for yourself. Since that point there has been no discussion on the talk page. I then revised my edits and just edited the most glaring false statements found in the lede. He still found the need to revert the lede back to how it was when i discovered it. The facts are that most people do not know about the NOGE and so they google it. When they do your very incorrect lede comes up and does the NOGE a great disservice. Your lede is not neutral and it is not true. So I ask again who is the editor that submitted that lede to you in the first place? This is a very important issue to a people affected by the false information contained in the NOGE lede. I seek assistance in making it neutral and correct, Paul is an impediment--Bornking7 (talk) 21:33, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Again, you don't seem to understand that while a neutral perspective is required, it is also required that you need to show reliable sources that back up your claim. If you are involved with the group, then there is a conflict of intereste that needs to be addressed as well. Your repeated changes to the lede to present your "neutral definition" have not been backed by reliable sources. Insertion of sources is through the use of reference tags. If you are unsure how to do it, present a source on the talk page and request help from any of the other editors there to show you how. It's not a matter of knowing or not knowing how to use ref tags, it's about knowing that you must have something to put into ref tags. Your refusal to see that you are not editing in conformance to policy is rising to the level of disruption. --Blackmane (talk) 07:52, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here? (Please provide a few diffs if this is regarding conduct and ensure that you have discussed the issues on a talk page first.)

• On the page Doubledealer Black Kite removed the image of the fictional character based on NFCC 3a, stating that there are three images. It's one image with three frames of a character shapeshifting in a commercial. He claims the artcile is only due ONE image. I say this triple image is justified since it illustrates the character shifting forms.

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• user:mathewignash and user:Black Kite

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken? Note: You must have at least discussed the issue on a talk page.

• Yes,

• How do you think we can help?

• Is the triple image justified?Mathewignash (talk) 02:33, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

• Stop edit warring. Consensus first. Since this involves NFCC there's a slight bias against over-inclusion so just leave the article without the image until it can be sorted out.
• Policy. NFCC 3a: "Minimal usage. Multiple items of non-free content are not used if one item can convey equivalent significant information."
• Definition. Is this one image or 3? It's a derivative image including 3 non-free images.
• Licensing. Each image needs to be part of the usage rationale. There's no meaningful difference between a 3-in-1 and 3 separate images, although there's nothing inherently wrong with using a series of images.
• Usage. It might be less of a copyright issue if the images were smaller.
• Significance. Does 1 image 'convey equivalent significant information'? One image is enough to identify the character, but not to illustrate the character's forms. As Transformers are noteworthy for changing shapes, I think more than 1 images does convey significant information beyond what a single image can.
• Discuss. Sort out what I and others say here, otherwise the logical place for this discussion is non-free content review. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 14:52, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

• • WP:NFCR (or WT:NFC) would have been the best place for this anyway. Incidentally, size of images is irrelevant to NFCC. Black Kite (t) (c) 22:46, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's very relivant that the character in question is basically a shapeshifter. To illustrate the character for the reader to recognize him, you have to show what the character may look like. In this case the character in questions is a spy with a couple identity and a different shape for each. Which form do we show? Mathewignash (talk) 22:57, 3 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution

• Tevfik Fikret (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

One particular editor Takabeg, repetedly removes the Turkish poet category tag from this article about one of the most famous Turkish poets of all time. His contention is that Tevfik Fikret was an Ottoman poet solely, and not a Turkish one. Though there is such a category tag, Ottoman poets already included, he is not satisified and removes the Turkish poets category, and reverts back to back. Intentions seem to be not constructive and a behaviour repeated in many other instances.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• Takabeg (talk · contribs)

Tevfik Fikret is and was one of the most influencial and well known Turkish poets. All his work was written and published in Turkish as far as I know. His being an Ottoman citizen, a citizen of a multi-ethnic, multi-religious and multi-national (Turkish) Empire does not change the fact that he wrote and spoke in Turkish, has a Turkish name, was a Turkish literature teacher and as far as we know has never identified himself anything but a Turk, an Ottoman Turk. If he is not a Turkish poet, then no one is.

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

Extensive discussion did not result in him stopping his reverts. Though his favored category is included (not disputed by me), he is not satisfied and keeps removing the Turkish poets tag from this article about a very important Turkish poet.

• How do you think we can help?

Simple prevention of repeated reverts and retaining the Turkish poets category will do. A warning about disruptive editing and stalking is also necessary it seems.

Murat (talk) 05:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tevfik Fikret discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

WP:CAT: "It should be clear from verifiable information in the article why it was placed in each of its categories." So basically, if there's evidence this individual is Turkish or closely associated with Turkish culture, and that evidence is mentioned in the article and referenced, then the category is appropriate. Categories are primarily for readers to find related articles. They are useful but not definitive. A Turkish poet category doesn't mean this writer is exclusively Turkish or Turkish rather than Ottoman. It's okay if there's some overlap in categories as long as it is backed up by sources. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 02:25, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Tevfik Fikret resolution

• Golden Triangle (UK universities) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Dispute overview

• Can you give us a quick explanation of what is going on? What is the issue you are bringing here?

Thetruthof2011/Thetruthnow2012/24.5.132.234 (same user) raised a concern about the number of Nobel Prize winners from Cambridge compared to Columbia University. The article originally said Cambridge had the second highest (with 88) after Columbia. But as Thetruth2011/2012 correctly pointed out from Columbia's official site and the List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation article, Columbia only has 70.

However, instead of simply correcting the error, Thetruth2011/2012 proceeded to add the entire list of universities by Nobel Prize winners, plus a paragraph of WP:PUFF and WP:PEACOCKery about Cambridge [8] [9]. After numerous reverts between Thetruth2011/2012 and Rangoon11 (who tried to persuade Thetruth2011/2012 to discuss on the talk page [10]), I came across the article and reverted to the version without the puffery and the irrelevant list [11] [12], before making the simple correction myself [13].

• The puffery included phrases like With that said, it is arguably considered throughout the world, like Oxford and London, as the very most greatest university in the world and the home of the elite-elite.

Thetruth2011/2012 finally began to talk [14] [15], saying the article had incorrect information about the Nobel list (which I think was true). I told him on the article's talk page [16] that it wasn't the only issue, and their edits were reverted because of the puffery and the irrelevant list (also explained in the edit summaries [17] [18] [19]). Thetruth2011/2012 doesn't seem to get the message, posting on my talk page that their edits are sourced and even saying that Rangoon made "intentional" errors to the article [20]. (True, the list is sourced, but it does not belong to the article at all.)

Judging from their language, Thetruth2011/2012 has no intention of engaging in a serious discussion about the issues I have raised about the page, and is simply reverting to WP:DISRUPT and make their WP:POINT.

Users involved

• Who is involved in the dispute? (Make sure you let them know you have posted here)

• Thetruthof2011 (talk · contribs)
• Thetruthnow2012 (talk · contribs)
• 24.5.132.234 (talk · contribs)
• Rangoon11 (talk · contribs)

Resolving the dispute

• Have you tried to resolve this dispute already? If so, what steps have you taken?

I've explained to Thetruth2011/2012 about the WP:PEACOCKery and the extraneous list, but they seem keen only on reverting to make their WP:POINT.

• How do you think we can help?

Ask Thetruth2011/2012 to stop his disruptive behavior and discuss why they think the paragraph with the puffery and the list of universities by Nobel Prize winners should be included in the article. If they continue to refuse to discuss, just take them up at WP:AN.

Yk³ talk ~ contrib 01:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Golden Triangle (UK universities) discussion

Discussion about the issues listed above take place here. Remember to keep discussions calm, brief, and focused on the issues at hand.

It seems clear from the description above that one editor is acting improperly. Making synthetic, subjective value judgments that are not specifically backed up by a source, not directly relevant to the article, or otherwise intended to promote rather than inform is just not what we do. There's not really a dispute here. I recommend you warn one more time, and then seek an administrator to make a necessary intervention, perhaps a short block. Ocaasi ^{t | c} 02:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"It seems clear from the description above that one editor is acting improperly."

Indeed. The editor in question has already violated the 3-revert rule on the article. I have reverted his latest series of edits to the article and left a sternly worded warning on his talk pages. If he reverts again I suggest he simply be reported to the edit warring noticeboard.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 13:42, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what relationship this board has to wikiprojects, but in this case it would be really helpful to place a notice on the talk page of WikiProject Universities. The article has not progressed much from a stub except for including summary info about universities that is already covered on their own pages. Few references relate to the "Golden Triangle" concept itself; most are about the individual unis. The article may be a candidate for merger. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

With respect this isn't the place for a discussion about whether 'Golden Triangle' merits an article - although I am pretty puzzled at the idea that it doesn't (there is a deep mine of potential sources, in addition to the ones already in the artice [21] and [22]). I would agree that the article needs work however.

On the point at hand, I have personally found the activities of Thetruthof2011/Thetruthnow2012/24.5.132.234 very time wasting over the past few days. They have made no effort at engaging in constructive discussion, have posted aggressive and confused messages on my talk page e.g. [23] and [24], have not used edit summaries, and have tried to impose changes to the stable versions of articles purely through repeated edit warring.

The article List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation in particular is one that I have little interest in personally - and I certainly have no strong views on the number of Nobel winners associated with Columbia - but have felt compelled to get involved in to prevent it being butchered by Thetruthof2011/Thetruthnow2012/24.5.132.234. Rangoon11 (talk) 23:32, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Thetruthnow2012, and thank you for your long comment! I'm sorry for any distress this may have caused, but I have taken the liberty of collapsing your comment down to make this noticeboard more readable. I can assure you that I have done this with the best of intentions - I'm afraid we need to keep the length of this noticeboard down to make it as accessible as possible for other users who file disputes here.

I have read your comments, and there are a lot of things in there that we can talk about. Before we start, though, I was slightly alarmed at some of the language you used. I see that you've characterized the other editors involved in this dispute as "spiteful", and called one of them a "so-called editor". I don't think the other editors involved are going to feel very happy about these accusations. If we are going to find a solution to this dispute that satisfies everyone, then I think it is absolutely vital that we keep discussion focused on the content involved, and not on other editors. Reading the pages "assume good faith" and "no personal attacks" should give you a good idea of the kind of interaction that is praised by the Wikipedia community; would you be willing to try sticking to these principles in this discussion? — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 13:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will also add that this advice goes for everyone in this discussion - let's avoid labeling other editors and keep comments focused on facts. All the best. — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 13:59, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

User_talk:Thetruthnow2012#Dispute_resolution_2 - Yk³ talk ~ contrib 14:13, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I commend Thetruthnow2012 for his resolution to abide by the 3-revert rule and for deciding to engage in dispute resolution rather than continuing to edit war. However his accusation that editor Yk_Yk_Yk has violated the 3-revert rule appears to be mistaken, his insinuation that I should have warned both Yk_Yk_Yk and Rangoon11 for violating the rule is unwarranted, and these contentions seem to be based on a misunderstanding of the 3-revert rule on his part.

The 3-revert rule applies to reversions, not edits. The text of the rule explicitly says that "[a] series of consecutive saved revert edits by one user with no intervening edits by another user counts as one revert." If Yk_Yk_Yk's and Rangoon11's reversions to the article Golden Triangle (UK universities) are counted correctly, neither of them has violated the 3-revert rule on that article at any time during the last moth (although Rangoon11 did come quite close). At the time when I issued my warning to Thetruthnow2012, Yk_Yk_Yk had performed only 2 reverts to the article in the immediately preceding 24 hours, and Rangoon11 had performed only 1. As a consequence, neither of them was in immediate danger of violating the 3-revert rule, and therefore no warning was called for.

After I had warned Thetruthnow2012 for violating the 3-revert rule on Golden Triangle (UK universities) I noticed that he had also violated it on the article List of Nobel laureates by university affiliation, so I thought it advisable to add a footnote to my previous warning informing him that it also applied just as much to his edits on this latter article. At the time I had only checked the first page of that article's history, and Thetruthnow2012 was the only editor who had violated the 3-revert rule on that article during the period covered by that page. I have since checked further back through the history of that article and found that Rangoon11 does appear to have violated the 3-revert rule there between 11:56 on July 3rd and 10:47 on July 4th, with 5 reversions during that period. I will concede that if I had been aware of this at the time I added the footnote to my warning to Thetruthnow2012, I should probably have warned Rangoon11 as well, although I must say his violation was already pretty stale by then.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 15:50, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

After receiving 'Yk Yk Yk's posted message it is quite painfully obvious that he/she does't know how to win an argument. He/she is obviously no lawyer. He/she has strayed from the main issues regarding two webpages and focused upon one paragraph from only one of them. How dare she suggest that I have provided irrelevant information. The number one world ranking of Cambridge University this year was indeed stated by other past editors without dispute. Such a ranking is based upon various factors, but they invariably compare such factors AGAINST ALL OTHER UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD. That being said, I took it upon myself to add more statistical data taken from a record that spans 800 straight years of continuous academic achievement in support of a ranking that has only existed for a mere seven years. And I also illustrated quite convincingly how many Noble laureates Cambridge University has had in relation TO THOSE SAME OTHER UNIVERSITIES IN THE WORLD to further justify not only its ranking, but also its reputation as being the very most greatest university in the world. Such a statement is not made lightly, for it is indeed supported by the statistical facts that spans a time period that greatly exceeds all other universities by many centuries. If a university is to be judged by how great it is based upon how successful its own track record of achievement is (i.e. production record in all categories, including the Nobel laureate category, and in all fields of study) then one can do no better than Oxbridge and London. Indeed, I have found no other record of achievement from any other university that would beat or even come close to the production records of either Cambridge or Oxford or for that matter, even London University. And mind you, this refers to an all-time record, not merely this year!!! Such an assessment applies to all other matters (i.e. sports teams, et cetera) as it does to Universities. When 'Yk Yk Yk' asserts that the trio of Oxford-Cambridge-London is part of a Golden Triangle, he/she must not only explain it, but he/she must prove it for the sake of scholarship as well. What makes this particular trio anymore 'Golden' than the trios of Harvard-Yale-Princeton or Berkeley-Stanford-Caltech? If such a designation is to be distinguished from all others as being 'Golden' she might as well compare them to all others. It is not only a fair argument, but a scholarly one at that. Nonetheless, if 'Yk Yk Yk' is going to gripe about my statements, why doesn't she stop whining and just provide his/her own counter statistical data to disprove it. Until then, 'Yk Yk Yk' has no basis for an argument against my edited webpages anymore than 'rangoon11' does.

LASTLY, BY 'YK YK YK's OWN ADMISSION she stated that I was accurate and that I corrected erroneous information provided by 'rangoon11' (i.e. 'rangoon11's false cooking of the statistical data at 97, when it was just barely above 70; said editor's false assertion that Professor Edwards was an affiliate of Columbia University, when he was always and solely an affiliate of Cambridge University; said editor's false assertions that Cambridge University was second to Columbia in overall affiliate Nobel laureates, when the opposite is true - one who lives by the number dies by the number; and 'rangoon11's misuse of references regarding Columbia under the heading of awarded 'staff', when such citations refer to Chicago and Cambridge instead). BY 'YK YK YK's OWN ADMISSION she stated that she only changed my edited webpages and sided with 'rangoon11' on the frivolous basis that it was puffy which flies in the face of Wikipedia's own stated policy of encouraging as much ACCURATE CITES AND AUTHORITIES AS POSSIBLE. And BY 'YK YK YK's OWN ADMISSION she openly sided with a dishonest and disreputable editor that has already been busted in the past by the head administration of King's College, London University for making inaccurate editions to the said webpage. Based upon all of the foregoing, it can safely and legally be said that the editor known as 'YK YK YK' is as dishonest and disreputable as 'rangoon11' and any further statement that he/she decides to post in the future does not rise to the dignity of a proper response.

Thetruthnow2012 (talk) 16:18, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Hi again Thetruthnow2012, and thank you for your further comment. Again, before any mediation can take place we need to have a constructive environment for discussion. I see that you have said Yk Yk Yk "gripe[d]" about your statements, that Rangoon11 engaged in "cooking of the statistical data", and that Yk Yk Yk's objections were "frivolous". I also see that you have referred to this noticeboard as the "dispute resolution arena" ([29][30]). I will ask you again - are you willing to abide by the principles of assuming good faith and avoiding personal attacks in this discussion, and also on Wikipedia in general? — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 23:49, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Golden Triangle (UK universities) resolution