Bernie Siegel (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

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Appears to be a non-notable individual. No significant coverage in reliable sources as per WP:GNG. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:41, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. Pretty obvious non-notability. A small amount of references by similarly non-notable authors in long-forgotten alt-health books is all that scholar turns up. Yet another example of an old AfD not actually bothering to check whether usable sources exist, and just saying that they did a search, got some results, therefore, keep. Further, what sources are used seem to be being abused: Off-hand mentions of him are being used to make direct claims, using WP:SYNTH. 86.** IP (talk) 14:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - have added a couple of sources. Siegel is an extremely well-known new age writer and speaker, and is considered among the most influential people in that area, as shown by the Watkins list. I carry no brief for his brand, but his name is instantly recognisable, and I was surprised to see it on the AfD list. The article was not ideal but the man is notable. Chiswick Chap (talk) 21:55, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• • I'm not sure such obscure, fringe sources are really enough to show notability. 86.** IP (talk) 00:05, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• • You have to be kidding! The Watkins list is pure nonsense - it claims that Bernie Seigel at #25 is higher ranked in spirtual influence than Joseph Ratzinger #45 who just happens to be the leader of the Catholic Church and Rowan Williams who is the Archbishop of Cantebury the theological leader of all Anglicans. The Watkins list is definitely not a reliable source.--Salimfadhley (talk) 16:02, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep - Spiritual/New Age source ≠ fringe source. The two sources are good, they meet the criteria for reliable sources. I am impressed by his position (25) on Watkins' list. Looks like a well-thought out and educated list, and I must note that we have articles on many of the listees, right down to #100 Marion Woodman. I would like to see at least one more substantive source, since I presume the Watkins' list entry is rather brief (really the magazine with the full list should be cited along with a link to the web page with the top 10). Yworo (talk) 05:26, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spirtual/new age sources are fringe sources as the new age movement is a fringe movement (i.e it's a small subculture). I'm not sure what your basis for saying otherwise is. The Marion Woodman article you point out is also poorly sourced and also seems non-notable. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:48, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, that's with respect not a fair deduction.

1) Firstly, while New Age is smaller than the market for, say, beer, it consists of at least some millions around the world.

2) Secondly, small does not mean lunatic/extremist fringe, which is what WP:FRINGE is about. New Age is in part a spiritual movement, in part commerce, in part self-help: all being part of normal life, and indeed covered by a detailed and very well-sourced WP article. New Age is not fringe.

3) Thirdly, Siegel is BOTH New Age and Medical, with distinctive and notable features of his own, like his cancer group therapy work. And he is demonstrably well known as a writer and speaker.Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:50, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

He doesn't appear to be well known for his medical career. WP:FRINGE isn't about lunatics, I suggest you check again. Size isn't too relevant a factor; the creationists movement is also quite large, it is still a fringe movement. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your prejudices are showing, I'm afraid, and it is not appreciated. Besides, as much as I don't ascribe to their beliefs, the Creationists Movement probably deserves an article, as it is notable. Notability has little to do with scientific or factual basis; if it did, no religions would pass your litmus test, or comedy, or works of fiction. Fringe movements can also be notable, which is why you've heard of them. I'm sure you will find no responsible source (if any source at all) who has called Bernie Siegel a "lunatic"; that is your prejudice based on your personal feelings about his field of interest and profession, and it does not belong in this discourse.Rosencomet (talk) 16:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well lookie here: Creationism HAS an article; a BIG one, with 198 citations. So do Unicorns, the Church of the SubGenius, the Flat Earth Society, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Scientology and a whole lot of other notable subjects you might think are "lunatic", "nonsense", or "fringe". And they just might be, but they're still notable. Just FYI.Rosencomet (talk) 01:15, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Bernie Seigel is a very well-known New Age author and lecturer. His books, about a dozen of them (plus audiobooks) sell very well, and are all published by major presses rather than vanity presses. I agree with Chiswick Chap; I'm surprised to see him nominated for deletion. I think it's just that this article has been both too short and too neglected. I've improved it a bit.Rosencomet (talk) 10:51, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't seen any evidence the books sell well, the sources used to establish him as a well-known author and lecturer are fringe sources and seem inappropriate (I've never heard of bigspeak, it doesn't seem notable itself) . I checked out two of his books on Amazon, his ranking for one was 828,891th and for the other over 100 thousandth. IRWolfie- (talk) 11:23, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

We should not be relying on volatile Amazon figures. Recall that Siegel has been selling books for many years, and all book sales decline (often steeply) with time. However to reply in your terms, his 1988 book Love, Medicine and Miracles was today at #9,133 on amazon.com, not bad for something that's been in print for over 20 years.

BTW there are hundreds of Bernie Siegel citations in the New York Times. Chiswick Chap (talk) 11:59, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked through them? Most seem to be book lists: contrast [1] with [2]. IRWolfie- (talk) 12:44, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have added a few to the article with citations. Of course there are many listings of his famous, well-known, celebrated, admired, best-selling books... ;-} Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:18, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What you have added is a primary sourced sentence and a sentence based on a one line mention of Bernie Siegel which seem undue. Remember that wikipedia is not a newspaper; Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion. For example, routine news reporting on things like announcements, sports, or celebrities is not a sufficient basis for inclusion in the encyclopedia. WP:NOT#NEWS. IRWolfie- (talk) 13:48, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

An article in the New York Times regarding 1988 best-sellers ^[1] states, "The leading nonfiction paperback was Love, Medicine & Miracles, which is a book by Bernie S. Siegel about the importance of the patient's mind and emotions in the treatment of serious illness." and later in the article, "The listings are based on computer-processed sales figures from 3,000 bookstores and from representative wholesalers with more than 28,000 other retail outlets, including variety stores and supermarkets."

• Delete A #9 charting in a NYT sub-chart is not particulary notable. Most of his books did not even chart that high. He's not notable as an author or as an alt-med proponent. --Salimfadhley (talk) 15:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The book remained on the bestseller list for over a year. It has been continuously in print since 1988. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:19, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

That he made it on an nyt bestseller list for 1988 isn't relevant for notability requirements; see WP:AUTHOR. IRWolfie- (talk) 16:24, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This hardly counts as "enduring notability". He has not had a book in the charts for over 20 years. To be continuously in print is meaningless for WP:N since these days books are printed on demand. --Salimfadhley (talk) 16:36, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete I have read on this topic for years and I have never heard of Bernie Siegel, he appears to be not notable, he is a minor new thought writer, there does not appear to be much coverage for his ideas. Article should probably be deleted, theres 1000s of authors out there like him they don't all need a separate article. If he is notable within the field of energy medicine then perhaps he could be mentioned on that article, but as previously mentioned I have never heard of the dude & I am quite well read in this area! GreenUniverse (talk) 16:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know how you missed him; I've been reading and working in this field for decades, and he is very well known to me. He's been featured on Oprah, Donahue, and many other prominent talk shows on both TV and radio. His books can be found in self-help and alternative medicine sections of bookstores around the world. He is quoted in other well-known authors' books often. Instead of relying on your memory, why not research it a bit? Do a google search on books mentioning him, or articles printed in magazines and websites in his areas of expertise? Rosencomet (talk) 17:21, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do any kind of science books mention him :)... Comet I have looked him up, he seems a very happy chap with a nice message but can you provide any sources for him? I noticed theres a few on google books but I don't think these would count as they are coming from very fringe like books, New York Time is useful, but theres already too many of those. GreenUniverse (talk) 17:34, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Medicine-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:44, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - Well, let's start with the basics. The article is a biography. Can anyone find a reliable source that talks about when and where he was born and his early life? The above comments regarding how important he is only matters in Wikipedia if a reliable source writes in detail about it. We're not going to reward Siegel with a Wikipedia article for making #25 on a list, how many books he has sold, or who's heard of him. Wikipedia provides content and, unless there is sufficient reliable source material from which to develop an article, then we don't have the makings for a Wikipedia article. And this being the second AfD, arguments such as "we just need to fix it" carry little weight, especially since the first AfD was six years ago and the reliable source info has not yet come forth. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 01:41, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Keep. Google news archives gives us 1910 hits. Hard to imagine under what circumstances there aren't enough sources in the google news archives alone to indicate notability.(olive (talk) 02:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]
  • That's irrelevant: even the most cursory look at the results shows that most are not the same person as this one. There is, for instance, a wrestling promoter of the same name, as well as a financier. 86.** IP (talk) 02:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)86.** IP (talk) 02:43, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I suggest a more than cursory look at 1900 hits.(olive (talk) 03:00, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]

WP:GOOGLEHITS is a bad metric for a keep, I suggest you provide specific examples. the first three results appear to be from different Bernie Seigels, I wonder how many of the rest are as well. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:29, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not suggesting the google hits alone are reason to keep. I am suggesting that within 1900 hits, even a glance indicates there are enough sources to indicate notability.(olive (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]

*Comment per advertising this AfD. If we are canvassing editors from NB, only canvassing the Finge Theories NB hardly seems a neutral way to alert Wikipedia editors. I strongly suggest including other notice boards or removing the notice from the Fringe Theories NB. (olive (talk) 02:48, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]

It's perfectly acceptable to inform people on the FTN noticeboard as this is a way of centrally informing people (it's the primary board for dealing with undue and fringe material), it is not canvassing, the board isn't partisan, it simply informs a large group of interested editors (you can add FTN to your watchlist and be one of these interested editors). It's not put on other boards because there are no other relevant boards except maybe BLPN. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:32, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No problem with posting on the Fringe Theories NB, lots of concern with posting only on the Fringe Theories NB which targets a specific group of editors, which defines canvassing. I've posted on the BLP/NB and RS/NB. I have no attachment to this article at all, but this should be dealt with properly. (olive (talk) 15:40, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]

• Comment It seems people are trawling through the NYT and including even the briefiest of mentions in the article, some of which consistute primary sources and others which seem undue like these one line mentions: [3] [4] [5]. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:53, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• A good RS article here [6] to start.(olive (talk) 18:02, 17 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]

• Strong keep based on news hits from template link at top of AFD. Articles from numerous newspapers, often in major cities, were devoted solely to his lectures. Some of these constitute the generic public relations type, but there are enough of greater length and depth to establish at least notability as a mass-market best-selling author. There's no lack of significant coverage from reliable sources. I've little knowledge of this field, but he was so well known that even I'd heard of him. I suspect part of the problem is that his greatest period of notability was in the 80s and 90s, but even so enough links--though some are pay-per-view-- still exist online to establish significance. Apologies if I've inadvertently included any of the following twice. [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16]. To me this isn't even a close one. 99.156.65.73 (talk) 22:36, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again we have more newspaper clippings, this is hardly indicative of enduring notability. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:56, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The distinction between 'newspaper clippings', which you're using pejoratively, and reliable sources eludes me. These are published articles about the subject, per WP:RELIABLE, which establish notability. Likewise, there is frequent mention of Siegel as a bestselling author. I've seen, and nominated for deletion, authors here that merit an AFD discussion for sheer lack of references regarding themselves or their books. This isn't one of them by a longshot. 99.156.65.73 (talk) 13:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You appear to confuse reliable sourcing with notability, just because the content can be verified (most of the article appears based on does not mean we should have an article on it. The notability requirements are clear see WP:AUTHOR. That most of the sources people have found are from the 1988 era indicates that he does not have enduring notability. IRWolfie- (talk) 15:10, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Just now glanced at the article itself, which offers multiple cites of reviews of the subject's books, by major newspapers, easily meeting guidelines per WP:AUTHOR. 99.156.65.73 (talk) 22:45, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article is filling up with WP:PUFFERY to give it the impression of notability. That we are resorting to an article entirely filled with newspaper clippings seems to violate WP:NOT#NEWS. As the article stands it consists solely of clippings out of the NYT and the Los Angeles times, hardly a sign of enduring notability. IRWolfie- (talk) 10:54, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Puffery and non-neutral content are easily removed. Articles, in these instances book reviews from the aforementioned papers, do establish significance as stated (to belabor the point) at WP:AUTHOR. 99.156.65.73 (talk) 13:11, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Which of the 5 points in WP:AUTHOR do you think the individual meets. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:49, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Based on a rapid reading at least #3: The person has created, or played a major role in co-creating, a significant or well-known work, or collective body of work, that has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews. It's possible, given the popularity of his publications and the theories they proposed, that #1 and #2 will come into play. But even if not, I'm concerned that you're seeking to apply a more stringent interpretation of notability guidelines than I've seen before--in the initial rationale for deletion you wrote No significant coverage in reliable sources. These sources go beyond synthesis, and at the very least speak to an erstwhile broad cultural popularity. There are no guidelines clearly indicating a necessary duration of coverage to establish notability. Yet WP:NOTNEWSPAPER isn't applicable here because the subject did not receive coverage for an isolated incident, but has been the subject of coverage for his books and theories over the course of several decades. 99.156.65.73 (talk) 15:16, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep Enough sources shown for the subject to meet the GNG.  The Steve  23:22, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment, according to WP:NBOOK, books which have been on bestseller lists are notable. According to WP:AUTHOR, authors of bestselling books are notable. Exclusion of people for their spiritual or religious views that you do not share is non-neutral censorship. Yworo (talk) 23:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Nope I'm not sure where you got that from since it isn't in WP:AUTHOR and WP:NBOOK doesn't mention being on bestsellers lists. That is, neither mention anything about books being in bestselling lists as conferring notability. Noone is suggesting to exclude someone for their religious views etc. I suggest you look at the criteria given at WP:AUTHOR and WP:NBOOK. IRWolfie- (talk) 14:55, 18 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]