Battle of the Tigris

Battle of the Tigris (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iran-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:14, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 18:15, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Basically there is no such battle, thus issues of notability come in here. There is one mention of a battle in 521 here [1] and there is at least one battle with that name a couple of thousand years later, but this is WP:OR. The article's creator has a history of creating articles on non-existent battles. Doug Weller (talk) 10:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. As well as being blatant OR, this article is also a POV fork from Battle of Opis, where Ariobarza has repeatedly been advised by Akhilleus, Alvestrand, Dougweller and I to stop adding this original research. Ariobarza believes that the Persian king Cyrus the Great fought a battle with the Babylonians at the Tigris river in February 539 BC. No reliable source makes this claim. You will not find any history of ancient Babylonia or Persia that talks of a "Battle of the Tigris" in 539 BC. (There was a "Battle of the Tigris" involving the Ottoman Turks in 1733 but that's not the same one, obviously.) Instead, Ariobarza is relying on his personal interpretation of an ancient Babylonian chronicle (see discussion at Talk:Battle of Opis#Another set of translations). See also the comments by Alvestrand [2], Dougweller [3] and Akhilleus [4] pointing out the original research and why it can't be included. It's unfortunate that Ariobarza has ignored all of us and decided to create this OR-based POV fork instead. -- ChrisO (talk) 10:23, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Is there enough info on the 1733 Battle of the Tigris to covert this article into one on that real subject? Edward321 (talk) 05:26, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• No. The only information I have is that it was a battle between the Ottoman Turks and the Persians. I don't have enough for even a stub article, frankly. -- ChrisO (talk) 08:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Keep. Unless you people have an agenda, please explain why your in such a hurry to delete such a puny article, while other articles with NO text have been left alone for almost a year! I am updating the article everyday, but I guess it hasen't clicked up there you guys's heads. You people lack humanity and common sense, plus, are impatient Bratz dolls. Going to be in denial until the bitter end I see, okay then...--Ariobarza (talk) 17:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]
  • Comment Point me towards the articles with no text and I'll see what I can do with them. Meanwhile, please don't use this as an opportunity to insult other editors. I've been trying my best to help you avoid such problems for many months now. Doug Weller (talk) 17:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete. What ChrisO said: there are no reliable sources that say a "Battle of the Tigris" occurred at this time between the Persians and Babylonians. Shall I change my username to "impatient Bratz doll" now? --Akhilleus (talk) 19:53, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment I got an idea, why don't you guys just delete the title! Your changing the subject, the subject is that, does this battle exist, NOT whether or not the title (currently searching) exists, there are lots of battles with no titles, the title is based on the sources it says direct qoute, On the (river) Tigris, furthermore, that corresponds to were Cyrus was invading from, Herodotus says he was delayed/ building stuff, and probable scrimish (attack/ battle) at the Gyndes river (todays Diyalas). Dougweller had let me use Siege of Pasargadae Hill for an untitled battle, BECAUSE the sources said it was a hill in Pasargadae that was besieged, so for certain extreme circumstances its okay to make titles, but the battle must and will and is under being sourced. I know your dying to taste the smell of deletion, but that must waist, so, come again.--Ariobarza (talk) 20:09, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

But that battle took place in 521. It's not the battle the argument is about. And your 'corresponds' is, once again, OR. Your direct quote has nothing to do with the article, as I think I've demonstrated on the article's talk page. What I don't understand is how you can write an article about a battle without starting with a firm, unambiguous, reliable, verifiable source. Doug Weller (talk) 20:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is a perfect demonstration of what's wrong with Ariobarza's "research". Read the source that he links above; it says: "521: Darius I ... in December, battle on the Tigris and capture of Babylon". In other words, a different ruler and a different battle, 18 years after the one Ariobarza is claiming. He simply hasn't bothered to read the source properly; a moment's care would have shown that it's nothing to do with the supposed battle of 539 BC. -- ChrisO (talk) 22:58, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Delete until a source is found and verified independently. --Alvestrand (talk) 20:31, 27 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Delete, major battles are indeed notable, but only if they really exist or are fictional ones with good sources. Agree with all the impatient Bratz dolls that this is OR. Nyttend (talk) 01:07, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong Keep Give the article a chance to take shape before you jump on it to delete it. What is the rush to delete it? Why don't you bring up these concerns on the article's talk page and give him a chance to work it out. If after a while he can't pull it together, then go for a delete. What's the big deal to abort this before it even has a chance to come together? Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:28, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The concerns have been brought up on the article's talk page, and Ariobarza has been unable to produce sources that says there was a "Battle of the Tigris" at this time. No sources, no article. --Akhilleus (talk) 04:35, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's no possibility that it can "come together" because the topic is entirely fictitious and undocumented. You might just as well ask for sources that to confirm that "George W. Bush is a reptilian humanoid". -- ChrisO (talk) 09:15, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong delete: since when did we allow people to post apparently invented information here, and then give them weeks to come up with even one half-decent source that actually mentions the event at all, let alone any sources that mention it under this name or that give any details on what supposedly happened. At the risk of seeming rude, the editor who created this page appears to have a history of inventing his own narrative of historical events and creating pages to match it. And then becoming abusive when challenged on his lack of sources. I don't see what this adds to the project - WP is meant to be a (hopefully) reliable reference encyclopedia that collates known and verifiable information, not a sandbox for aspiring amateur historians or historical novelists to either promote or road test their own ideas. --Nickhh (talk) 08:00, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I just started looking. This may not be the strongest source in the world but this battle seems to be mentioned here at Nationmaster under the Battles of Cyrus: [5]Tundrabuggy (talk) 15:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Erm, that's just a version of the WP article on Cyrus, hosted on another site. What's the betting that Ariobarza added that info a while back? I mean come on, if this doesn't tell you where we are with this one I guess nothing will. In addition this highlights the problems with having poor info here - it gets repeated and circulated elsewhere. And eventually is the sort of thing that makes WP a laughing stock from time to time. Even if proper sources are out there somewhere (which seems unlikely), this whole thing is being done back to front - editors here shouldn't just dump stuff here which appears to come off the top of their heads, and then scrabble around googling for something to vaguely back it up. There's way too much of that here as it is. Usually it's a POV problem, but here it's about basic historical accuracy. --Nickhh (talk) 15:34, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong commentI am really get tired of your (some users) bogus statements about my history. I NEVER made up a battle article, I made two articles TITLEs, not the battle itself (except the Siege of Ecbatana, which some now agree it might have been a raid/ storm not a siege). Secondly, when joining Wikipedia I knew disputes like this would arise, because most historians have neglected to provide a conclusive book on Persian history (and this is fact when compared to how many Egyptian, Greek, Roman books have been published). One must do A LOT of research just to find one of their battles, because the sources for them are barely covered by historians, and when they are, they are vague. But even though the Feb battle (a nickname of Battle of the Tigris which I never said was exactly in February) it has no title (as the battle of Opis did not have a title, historians would later call it Battle of Opis). IT Does not mean the battle has no right to exist in Wikipedia. For example, please check out Siege of Eion, I could only find a couple sources on the siege (its possibly more scant that the Battle of Tigris), which is part of the Greco-Persian Wars. If you do not know already, this is part of a bigger issue (as ChrisO says), as one must analyze why Persian nationalists even exists. My theory is that historians have been very Greco-Roman centric, which has led Iranians/ Persians to reavaluate their history, and when they did, they became mad when they found out historians were neglecting it. This is my theory, your welcomed to make yours, when coming here I suggest any to user, should go to the Opis talk page and read further, as evidence for the battle is there, I suggest you do that before coming here and saying ill informed things.--Ariobarza (talk) 16:52, 28 October 2008 (UTC)Ariobarza talk[reply]

The evidence at the Opis talk page is exactly the same as the evidence presented here and at the Tigris talk page: Attempts at synthesis from fragmentary ancient sources, and never giving a quote directly from a verifiable published source that supports the assertions. --Alvestrand (talk) 17:17, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. The issue is quite simple here - it's about having reliable sources for information, per policies and guidelines on WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:NOTABILITY. You can complain all you like about bias in Western analysis of and discourse on the classical world (an argument I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to as it happens); there are also of course going to be incidents and battles throughout history that may well have happened, but which for whatever reason have gone unrecorded in any detail or which can only be found referenced inconclusively in primary sources. Regardless, it's not up to you or anyone else on WP to embark on some sort of mission to supposedly put that all right, relying simply on what you - as one individual among many - happen to believe is the case. If a topic or incident isn't covered in mainstream reliable sources, it generally shouldn't have a page here. --Nickhh (talk) 17:44, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And that of course is a prime example of original research by synthesis - "If the sources cited do not explicitly reach the same conclusion ... then the editor is engaged in original research." This really is a textbook case. Unfortunately Ariobarza simply doesn't seem to accept the fact that OR is prohibited. It's not just that he doesn't understand it, as it's been explained to him often enough - he simply rejects it. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:55, 28 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

• HISTORY OF THIS MONTHS PAST EVENTSHypocracy at its best! This occurs when sources are listed (by ChrisO and other users on this page) for Battle of Opis that (historians) are NOT sure whether Cyrus slaughtered the Akkadians or the Akkadian army, or if there was even a slaughter at all. Then ChrisO wanted to push a POV that Cyrus did some sort of slaughtering, which is (original research by synthesis), then from the others users pressure, he backs off. THEN he says Ariobarza can not do what he did, BEFORE Ariobarza has attempted to update the Battle of the Tigris. Finally, (after a Opis talk page dispute, that ChrisO had enough of, and later ignored Ariobarza's solutions) ChrisO convinces others to delete the Battle of the Tigris. The end.