This request may be declined without further action if insufficient or unclear information is provided in the "Request" section below.
Requests may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs (not counting required information), except by permission of a reviewing administrator.

Request concerning Eric Corbett

User who is submitting this request for enforcement

Galobtter (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) 06:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User against whom enforcement is requested

Eric Corbett (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Search CT alerts: in user talk history • in system log

Sanction or remedy to be enforced

Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions_at_GGTF#Eric_Corbett_prohibited:

Diffs of edits that violate this sanction or remedy, and an explanation how these edits violate it

1. August 9 "If you seriously believe that I will be engaging in any discussion with an incompetent gutter-snipe like yourself you had better think again."
2. August 9 "Your reading skills as are almost as bad as your writing skills, but both are admittedly better than your comprehension skills"
3. August 9 "I expect you think you're being clever, but you're a long way off with your stupid comments."
4. August 10 "unpaid goons like Sandstein"

Diffs of previous relevant sanctions, if any

1. July 19, 2015 Previous block for the same remedy

If discretionary sanctions are requested, supply evidence that the user is aware of them (see WP:AC/DS#Awareness and alerts)

Additional comments by editor filing complaint

Filing per Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement_2#Enforcement_of_Eric_Corbett's_sanctions_(alternative) - further comments in uninvolved admin section. (comments moved up from below)

• Comments are self-evidently insulting or belittling and violations of WP:NPA. Corbett has been blocked once before for violating this remedy, and per the remedy, the first two blocks should be 72 hours long. Galobtter (pingó mió) 06:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Serial Number 54129: As I noted up, the only reason I'm filing here rather than blocking straight away is because ArbCom has mandated that the GGTF remedies relating to Corbett have to be filed at AE for 24 hours before they can be enforced. I'm commenting in this section to clarify the role I'm acting in here. Galobtter (pingó mió) 07:34, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I've moved up my comments from the "uninvolved admin" section. This is an unusual situation (AFAIK in no other case is there a "must be filed at AE first" provision) with not much precedent; I put my comments in that section since I am uninvolved with respect with Eric Corbett and an admin, but that seems to be causing confusion (and no one else is seeing it from that perspective, apparently). Galobtter (pingó mió) 21:21, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notification of the user against whom enforcement is requested

[1]

Discussion concerning Eric Corbett

Statements must be made in separate sections. They may not exceed 500 words and 20 diffs, except by permission of a reviewing administrator.
Administrators may remove or shorten noncompliant statements. Disruptive contributions may result in blocks.

Statement by Eric Corbett

• I'm only posting here to clarify that BabbaQ has got hold of completely the wrong end of the stick, and that no blame for "baiting" should be attached to Cassianto. In point of fact, he and I are in complete agreement on the way forward with the Moors murders article. Eric Corbett 13:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Against my better judgement, a couple of people, notably Sandstein, have lied - there is no other word for it - about my threatening to use socks or IP editing if I'm blocked. I have said/threatened no such thing, and unless Wikimedia has it in mind to enforce logging in to read Wikipedia I would have reason to do so. Eric Corbett 16:24, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by WBG

• Guttersnipe was a response to EEng mocking Eric as Shakespeare.
• This is not a PA.
• This is a response to Ian's (originally) saying about how Eric has not mastered the charm school and then, his' bringing a completely different issue out of nowhere to discredit Eric. Even then, I don't deem it to be a PA.

  All the parties have unclean hands; no sanction based on this set of diffs. Or sanction everybody involved.

• Whilst I am hardly a fan of Sandstein's maneuvers at AE, unpaid goon is (indeed) way much into NPA territory. But, their illustrious history goes back quite many years ....
• I also recall this flagrant breach of NPA from recent past but don't think Ritchie would have supported a sanction, at all.

  Not certain about supporting a sanction, based on these either.

And, if we are at all going to do this, please indefinitely block Eric; short-term-blocks have not worked and will not work. He will come back, make a bunch of diffused borderline PAs after provocations and we will continue having this theater at AE ..... ∯WBG^converse 06:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Parabolist: - Noting someone to have a robotic and authoritarian style of management is not a personal attack; I might point to snowflakes, if one is unable to absorb such (borderline-legitimate) mild criticism. But, as I noted earlier, unpaid goon is indeed clear-cut breach of NPA. ∯WBG^converse 09:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Sandstein: - For now? Don't be a jerk. ∯WBG^converse 15:11, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Newyorkbrad, well, Sanstein notes above:- But, to make my view even clearer, the enforcement action that I took and might again take in this case .... Any suggestions? ∯WBG^converse 15:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• MJL's diffs are highly concerning -- I'm all in favor of treating textbook-trolls like that in controversial areas but that discussion genuinely looked like a bout of ownership being leveraged to shut down a highly valid question. It's my feeling that Eric is slowly but steadily getting close to the net-negative boundary. ∯WBG^converse 20:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SN54129

• As WGB notes, the only problematic comments from Eric were reactive to editors indulging in similar mockery. Either sanction all, or none.
  @Galobtter: incidentally, any reason you're posting in the "Uninvolved admins" section?! ——SerialNumber54129 06:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• As far as goon goes, I think the most common usage in multiple Engvars is, unfortunatey , not so much that of the black and white telly (which has long seen a picture); rather, the beats of Ginbserg

Kennedy stretched and smiled and got double-crossed by lowlife goons and agents
Rich bankers with criminal connections
Dope pushers in CIA working with dope pushers from Cuba working with a
big-time syndicate from Tampa, Florida
And it hadda be said with a big mouth.

It may not have been intended like this, of course, but in terms of how it would likely be received, I think the probability is tendential. But context, people, context. Cheers, ——SerialNumber54129 11:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@AE admins

How bout a deal? You don't block EC, and my current FAC* tanks. Seems fair: the community keeps a better content writer than me for the sake of a bronze star. That, my friends all, is surely a no-brainer. Please consider this option. ——SerialNumber54129 13:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

* With absolute apologies to those reviewers who have already looked in of course. ——SerialNumber54129 13:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Sandstein: Out of (some) curiosity, you say that were undoing the enforcement action (for now); my emphasise. Does this mean you are considering waiting 17 hours...and then doing it all over again? I'm somewhat wary of that implication. ——SerialNumber54129 14:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Dicklyon: See, told you I knew it was accidental :p  ;) ——SerialNumber54129 15:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by SC

As WGB notes there is only one possible infringement here, but that's up against a lot of poking and baiting to get there. If you want to play power games to get Eric blocked again, you have to look at the standards pushed by others, particularly EEng, who has littered his comments with snark, PAs and baiting which are far more egregious than anyone else's. While that thread isn't Wikipedia's finest hour, it hardly constitues enough of a breach to impose further penalty (unless one was in the hypothetical situation of being so small-minded as to try and scaphunt Eric on the flimsiest of excuses).

I can see EC being blocked again, and it will be on the flimsiest of excuses, but the finger should be pointing at others who have pushed and prodded him constantly for no beneficial reason. - SchroCat (talk) 07:53, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Parabolist, Perhaps you could sign your posts please? (And there is nothing "condescending" about the use of the 'bear' term: who is supposed to be patronised by its use?) - SchroCat (talk) 09:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• WBG, I'm not entirely sure "unpaid goon" is a personal attack. "unpaid" certainly isn't ("paid" certainly would be!), and to me a goon is someone with what the OED calls an "absurd brand of humour", after The Goon Show. When I saw it, my first reaction wasn't that it was an PA, but, of course, I may be wrong. - SchroCat (talk) 09:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Mendaliv, then I presume you are an American? I’m not, so my take on certain terms is sure to differ. The cultural differences of language are tricky, and I’d hate to see a block given for a transatlantic misunderstanding. - SchroCat (talk) 09:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Leaky caldron, well I’m delighted you can mind read and say exactly what was in another editor’s mind. Goons perform goonery (check the OED if you think I’m making it up). Goonery is doing absurd things. You may not like the difference in language, but there you go. - SchroCat (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Leaky caldron, Except that I have said what my take on reading it was. I also said “of course, I may be wrong”, rather than pretend I know what someone else is saying. - SchroCat (talk) 10:47, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Thanks for the silly little dig: I take it you’ve realised I was giving my opinion, Esther than trying to give something as fact. - SchroCat (talk) 10:59, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• @Leaky: So much for "This is my sole contribution, take it or leave it": if only it had been sole, or not at all. Please feel free to have yet another "last word", as it seems you like that sort of thing. - SchroCat (talk) 16:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Sandstein, 1 you are too involved. There are enough people saying that right now and very few arguing against it. There are other admins available, so back off and let someone else handle it. 2. "If I had to recuse myself because of being mentioned, all editors could immunize themselves against enforcement actions by pre-emptively insulting or otherwise attempting to incite conflicts with all admins active at AE and all arbitrators": bollocks. That's the weakest attempt I've seen to justify getting involved. That doesn't wash normally and it wouldn't necessarily matter here, but AE sanctions are slightly different, and, in this case, you don't have to do anything, because if you do, it will make any action you take immediately suspect, particularly as several people have already advised you personally not to act. Just step away and leave someone else to deal with it. – SchroCat (talk) 16:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• BabbaQ, as you haven't read the thread at Moors Murders properly (given you are accusing Cassianto of baiting EC, when they were both in agerement on the point, I'm not sure your judgement adds much weight when backing Sandstein's action ! - SchroCat (talk) 16:16, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cassianto

Bear poking if ever I've seen it. Cassianto^Talk 07:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Galobtter, can I please reiterate the point made by Serial Number above about you posting your comment in the "uninvolved administrators" section, below? Or is this another case of one rule for one and another others? Cassianto^Talk 12:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Leaky caldron, have you even bothered to look up the definition of "goon"? Cassianto^Talk 13:13, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Bbb23 has confirmed at least that it is one rule for one and another for others re his comment about not wanting to move Galobtter's comment from the "uninvolved" section for the fear of "responses". What are you saying, Bbb23, that you'll be met with incivility by Galobtter? But then, like I say, one rule for one... Cassianto^Talk 17:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Just pointing out MJL and their very recent harassment of Eric here, which came after this and now suddenly, this. Just another random article, was it MJL? I think it's time this peanut gallery closed. Cassianto^Talk 21:55, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Mendaliv

There really needs to be a formalized exception to this for when he's baited. Most of these are clear cases of baiting. I've no love lost for Eric and think he's his own worst enemy, but this is egregious. I'd even discount the last comment on the grounds that he'd been baited into a frenzy there and elsewhere over the previous 24 hours.

In fact, why isn't there a DS regime on Eric Corbett more generally? He's divisive enough a character, and we've had DS regimes for subjects attracting less on-wiki controversy. Why shouldn't people who try to rub Eric's nose in c-gate in unrelated discussions be subject to discretionary sanctions? Just a thought.

Also, OP should not be commenting as an uninvolved admin, being the filer. The claim that he'd have blocked if not for the directive to have an AE discussion for 24 hours first only reinforces this. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 08:39, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Parabolist: I think your point on the Sandstein comment may be right, but I believe that, read in context with the baiting that took place at Talk:Moors murders over the previous day (and perhaps other comments made elsewhere that haven't been listed and which I'm not going to dig for), we can surmise that Eric was still lashing out. If we're going to give him credit for the baiting at Talk:Moors murders, I don't see why that credit shouldn't extend to the Sandstein comment. Yes, Eric should be warned for lashing out, and if he continues without abatement despite such warning, then we can talk about enforcing this provision. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:15, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Parabolist: If someone is being provoked by throwaway troll accounts, and they respond by lashing out at an unrelated editor three times, how is that not an issue? It's not a non-issue, but I don't think it merits a block. I think the fact that Eric was provoked should be a factor in mitigation. Sandstein has had absolutely zero involvement with Eric or the Moors murder discussion in the last week, and yet Eric is using disruption at that page as a free pass to take swipes at him. Sandstein practically lead the charge for Eric's last block, so it's not like he's an innocent bystander, or someone that's going to be forced off the project because Eric bullies him. In short we must take context into account. I think another important aspect to look at here is the level of disruption caused by the comment, for if there is no disruption, no sanction should lie, since the sanction would not be preventive. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:37, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: To me, "goon" is closely related to "thug", and typically means "hired muscle". Like the guy who works for a debt collector or bookie and breaks debtors' thumbs. Of course an "unpaid goon" is at odds with the idea of a goon as "hired muscle", which I read as the intent of the statement; it means someone who acts like a goon but isn't paid for it, with the implication being someone who gets pleasure out of breaking thumbs and kneecaps. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@SchroCat: Yes, I am American. I agree it would be unfortunate to block if Eric didn’t mean “goon” in the sense I understand it. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 09:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Leaky caldron and SchroCat: I just checked OED actually. The first three senses of the word “goon” are pretty clear PAs (someone stupid, a mob enforcer, a WWII German POW camp guard), and while the first two are listed as originally American senses, the attestations make it clear that they’re used in those senses in the UK as well. And really, Eric’s use of “unpaid goon” makes it clear that it was in the second sense (maybe third, but not likely); the irony of an enforcer working without pay is certainly the idea. I am appreciative of the fact that we can’t read Eric’s mind, but there’s no sense in pretending we can’t infer intent from the context. If he wishes, Eric may explain what he meant.
But as I’ve already said I’d be prepared to let it go with a warning given the baiting he’d suffered in the previous day. Treating the two occurrences as fully separate strikes me as rather naive. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 10:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@RexxS: I think you give better context to the Sandstein comment than I have. I think Sandstein does good work, but I also think the monthlong block was excessive. I frankly don't think there was consensus for that specific length at the last AE, and have a great deal of frustration with the lack of factor-based analysis in that case rather than automatically falling back on the equivalent of "We have two options: one month or nothing." But I don't intend to relitigate that past issue. I would tend to view Eric's lashing out at Sandstein in the context of any splanchnic ventilation in close proximity to a sanction, and not throw the book at him.
As RexxS's comment indicates, there are several factors in mitigation should we actually try to look for them. And, as to the perennial comment that "If this weren't Eric we'd have blocked by now," my response is to suggest that means we should reconsider how we treat other editors. We should not advocate "This is how we treat people with no friends, so let's treat everyone that poorly," but instead advocate principled analysis that explicitly weighs matters in aggravation and mitigation when deciding the severity a sanction needs to be adequately preventive. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 13:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Sandstein: If however, in the opinion of an uninvolved administrator, Eric Corbett does engage in prohibited conduct, he may be blocked. “May.” Not “must.” Not “shall.” As to the decision about block length, there are two ways of answering this, both of which are fatal to your argument. First, it constitutes an undue invasion of the province of the administrator by commanding particular ongoing actions and prohibiting discretion in their enforcement; admins are not agents of the arbitration committee. Second, if a three-month block is excessive but mandatory if a block is to be issued, then it is an abuse of discretion for you to impose it at all. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 15:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

In light of Awilley's revelation below of an inconsistency between the GGTF sanctions regime targeting him and the enforcements provisions in that case and in AE2, an ARCA filing may be required to resolve the inconsistency. These provisions are irresolvable, even in AE2, which expressly "confirm[ed] the sanctions imposed on Eric Corbett as a result of the Interactions at GGTF case", which raises the exact same problem. I propose that this AE request either be denied or held in abeyance unless and until an ARCA resolves the inconsistency. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 18:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Awilley: Ah, that is smart. I agree with that argument, that the sanction/remedy being confirmed doesn't include the specialized enforcement (which, if the Committee were following the proper formality in the GGTF case, would have been a separate provision in the enforcement section of that case). So at least, for the purposes of this case, there is a discretionary outcome. Though I also agree with Cryptic that it might not make much difference. As to going to ARCA, we'll probably be back here at AE by the end of the year, so perhaps it's best to wait until that time.
@Vanamonde93: I have much the same concern, that there's not a clear way for a sanction that can be imposed by "any uninvolved administrator" could have all but unanimity that no block was appropriate, that last remaining admin could block and it would be within that admin's discretion, at least within the scope of the original GGTF enforcement regime. I'm really not sure what to do about that. The AE2 requirement that Corbett sanctions discussions happen here at AE might be relevant; what happens, for instance, if there's a consensus of uninvolved admins discussing here that say "No action" and a section is hatted? Could an uninvolved admin come back and reverse that closure with no action? I think it would at least merit a trip to ARCA if so. Honestly, I would argue that if any uninvolved admin can impose a block, it follows that any uninvolved admin can "impose" a "non-block", which would have the same strength as an AE-imposed block (i.e., if someone then imposes a block, the lifting of that block might not be wheel warring if sanctions were then imposed on the blocking admin; see WP:ARBAE2#Reinstating a sanction reversed out of process). —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Vanamonde93: Point of clarification: I don't believe the Corbett remedy in GGTF is a "discretionary sanction" in the WP:DS sense (i.e., it doesn't use the phrase "standard discretionary sanctions" anywhere). There is clearly discretion built into it, of course, but there's enough difference between that and standard DS regimes that our understanding of how DS regimes are handled at AE doesn't apply, at least not uncontroversially. My thought on that, however, is that it's a really, really nitpicky distinction that borders on wikilawyering, and even if the intention of the Committee was not to import those concepts of consensus and administrative discretion, we should consider them part of all administrative actions seeing as they're just such core components to the overall Wikipedia system. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 19:35, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Cas Liber

The context is that there have been some frayed tempers over editing at Moors murders for over a month now (oh and some socks causing disruption too). In the past few days, the page has got some admin attention (and thus ceasefire on page edit-warring with a full-protect and me setting up a structured argument/RfC to sort it out conclusively. The general tone has fluctuated and hence no comments are particularly egregious when taken with those that come before and after. This should be sorted out with the RfC. at this point, any ad hominem quotes have suck into the quagmire and been forgotten. Hence any action now would be punitive and not preventative, which is contra our blocking policy. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 08:43, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Giano

It would appear that the Big Game hunting season is upon once more. It’s a pity Wikipedia can’t be like the rest of the civilised world and turn its back on such abhorrent practices. At the end of the day, the rhino is left dead and the hunters without glory having found the uses of powdered horn are a myth. No winners anywhere. Giano (talk) 08:55, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by GregJackP

If you block based on this, then Wikipedia is truly lost. There was clear baiting, clear poking of the sleeping beer. How about a novel suggestion--let Eric create content and the instigators leave him the hell alone. GregJackP Boomer! 09:03, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Parabolist

When it comes to provoking and ~poking the bear~, what exactly does that make Eric's three unprovoked jabs at Sandstein on his talkpage in the last week (including the one filed with this complaint)? Constantly repeating "well they poked a bear!" is a powerful miss of a metaphor, as in this case, perhaps no one should be a goddamn bear in the first place. Parabolist (talk) 09:22, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Mendaliv: If someone is being provoked by throwaway troll accounts, and they respond by lashing out at an unrelated editor three times, how is that not an issue? Sandstein has had absolutely zero involvement with Eric or the Moors murder discussion in the last week, and yet Eric is using disruption at that page as a free pass to take swipes at him.

@Winged Blades of Godric: If someone were to say similar things about Eric, and Eric lashed out at them, well then we'd all just say they "poked a bear." But it seems only one person is allowed to be a bear. Parabolist (talk) 09:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Leaky

This is my sole contribution, take it or leave it. I am from the UK, not the US. The suggestion that Eric's reference to Sandstein as an "unpaid goon" cannot relate to any humorous connection to the comedy sketch. Given the history between the 2 and in particular past enforcement actions taken by Sandstein against Eric, the reference to goon is clearly in the context of an enforcer. There is no other sensible interpretation. In that context it is an accurate description and as recognised slang, not an obvious PA. Leaky caldron (talk) 10:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat, I am delighted as well. I am frequently staggered by my omniscience. Do I care you prefer your bizzare Goon show alternative? Not one bit. Leaky caldron (talk) 10:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

SchroCat, I can see from your edits here that you are someone who must have it, so here it is. Leaky caldron (talk) 10:52, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Cassianto. In reply to your exceptionally crass question. Yes, I have. I will not be accountable to you and I have no desire to extend the discussion about Eric's intention regarding his description of Sandstein, his actions, his meaning; implied, obvious, abstract or otherwise, here or anywhere. You also can have what I gave your friend. Leaky caldron (talk) 13:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Dave

>Eric gets poked
>Eric responds with frustration
>Eric gets dragged here.

Why are we even here?. –Davey2010^Talk 11:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to add above but IMHO the goon comment shouldn't of been made ... but other than that I don't see any issues here. –Davey2010^Talk 13:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sandstein if you are planning on closing this in 24hours ... I would suggest you don't, Given no one agrees with your actions thus far you can bet your bottom dollar no one's going to agree with your next close either, Up to you but just a friendly suggestion. –Davey2010^Talk 16:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Govindaharihari

• Sandstein will not be blocking here, his advanced authority in this case is finished. Considering the comments here by admins and user alike, any admin that blocks for three months should expect the same. As User:SlimVirgin's comments I also don't support a block at all. It should be noted also that Sandstein has been restricted from acting here and the reason why, even if that is that he admits that consensus is against his actions and that in future he refrains from taking unilateral actions here at AE. Govindaharihari (talk) 18:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Toa Nidhiki05

Eric Corbett undoubtably violated his sanction, which he had agreed to follow. That he was poked is not relevant, as he is obliged and advised by his sanction to disengage from these types of situations. Eric is a fully capable human in full agency of his actions - his decision to violate his sanction was his alone. If the Arbitration Committee is not interested in applying the sanctions to Corbett’s violations, they should lift the sanctions. Toa Nidhiki05 12:45, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by BabbaQ

Not really involved. But his comments over at Moors murders talk page shows lack of judgment. And a clear violation of the agreement has been made, and a full ban should be done. Why otherwise have clear cut restriction agreements. Why have restrictions if when they are broken, excuses are made for them not to be implemented. I can see that he has been baited by EEng and Cassianto. To be fair to Eric, if EEng and Cassiantos comments over at Moors murders were looked at by an admin both would likely face blocks for abuse. However, no one is responsible for Erics behaviur other than Eric himself, he should have distanced himself immediately, instead he fell back to his old behaviour. Here and and here are just two of the examples as to why his restrictions has been breached, both comment and edit summary are inflammatory.--BabbaQ (talk) 13:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I sense a lot of animosity towards Sandstein with a lot of the same petty bickering that lead to EricCorbett even being blocked in the first place. It is really sad to see this kind of behaviour escalating all over Wikipedia. Here Toa is right, Sandstein made a correct decision to block Eric. Erix made the decision to violate his sanction, three months are correct.BabbaQ (talk) 16:13, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• SchroCat, All three involved are as responsible for the inflammatory comments. The block of Eric was correct. That Eric and Cassianto were in an agreement at one stage makes little difference.BabbaQ (talk) 16:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by GoodDay

I've been dragged to this place (AE) a few times in the past & learned quickly, how many folks were watching me & waiting to pounce, the moment I made any perceived mistakes. I know what it's like to have a target on one's head. The only thing EC can do, is resist responding to any poking & stay away from potential confrontations & most of all, certain editors. Otherwise? go out with a bang. GoodDay (talk) 13:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Dicklyon on Sandstein's involved close

My comment here is about Sandstein, who made an extensive comment in the section for "uninvolved administrators" below and closed the discussion and blocked Eric Corbett. I complained below, outside the closed discussion, and he hid my complaint, and said to refer to his explanation of why he didn't recuse himself. His close and comment were reverted by Winged Blades of Godric on the technicality of it not being 24 hours yet as required by AE actions, so this is open again.

Sandstein wrote:

I have taken note that one of the edits mentions me, but I am not recusing myself because of this. If I had to recuse myself because of being mentioned, all editors could immunize themselves against enforcement actions by preemptively insulting or otherwise attempting to incite conflicts with all admins active at AE and all arbitrators. This would render the enforcement process ineffective. That cannot be the intent of the Arbitration Committee.

A review of comments above makes it clear that Sandstein is way too deeply involved with Eric Corbett, and his actions there in the past questionable enough in comments on the present case, that this feeble slippery-slope excuse is unacceptable. When involved admins act this way, they further erode the already fragile reputation of admin fairness. Dicklyon (talk) 14:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And now he has re-added his involved statement below (and my comment on it) where it is prohibited. I did not edit that section and don't want my comment in it. Dicklyon (talk) 14:37, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My request

an uninvolved admin should strike or remove his comments, and mine, from the section for uninvolved admins below. I have no further interest in this case, except maybe I'll give Sandstein a trout. Dicklyon (talk) 14:42, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moved up from below, my note outside/after Sandstein's hatting

On the close, not the case: @Sandstein: given that you were among the editors he was making personal attacks on, don't you think it would have been wise to leave the close and blocking to some uninvolved admin? It does say "This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators" where you added your big concluding comment. Dicklyon (talk) 13:58, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I still object

To postings from Sandstein being allowed in the section for uninvolved admins below. Dicklyon (talk) 21:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by MONGO

Having personally been subjected to heavy handedness by Sandstein, I may be somewhat biased here but based on an obvious acrimonious history between Eric and Sandstein, I believe the community would be better served if Sandstein refrained from enacting any penalties in this matter.--MONGO (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by MJL

I really don't care what is happening here. I actually only noticed it because Bishonen commented on Dicklyon's talk page with a link here. I just wanted to note that I recently got into a content dispute with Eric over the sourcing of the Cotswold Olimpick Games in which he called me a clown.^[2] Reminder, that was after he had finished treating me like dirt because I question the reliability of the article's main source. If this was any other editor, I'd have posted on their talk page and, assuming they persisted casting aspersions against me and making personal attacks, I'd have filed at AN/I. However, after my AE report against Eric, I pretty much have given up on ever pursuing enforcement actions against this user because I sincerely doubt anything less than an arbcom ban would actually be effective in stopping the main issue. It's pretty pointless for peons like me to even pretend otherwise. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Honestly, the general manner in which discussions about Eric Corbett are handled makes me just want to silently quit Wikipedia. I was right about to go finish my work on Draft:Church of St. Nicholas in Tolmachi, but I keep asking myself what the point of it all is. I'll pretty much never feel safe on this project and would rather leave than constantly be told there is nothing I can do about it. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 20:20, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Cassianto: Glad to know you care about this perceived harassment enough to make a note of it here, but not enough to actually do anything about it. I always pondered whether this comment and this one were intentionally timed to coincide with AmericanAir88's RFA (which I was a prominent supporter of), but I had the good decency to bite my tongue and WP:AGF for editors who have never done the same for me.
Your accusation comes with no weight unless you prefer to open up an AN/I discussion about it. It's just a baseless personal attack meant to kick me while I'm down. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 22:09, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Levivich

In the past year, the number of editors Corbett has been uncivil to is greater than the number of articles he's worked on.

After Corbett was sanctioned, his talk page posts dropped off significantly [3]:
2013: 12,882 edits total; 9,430 in mainspace; 1,826 in user talk; 740 in talk; 630 in Wikipedia; 162 Wikipeda talk
2014: 11,553 total; 8,186 main; 1,868 UT; 412 T; 681 WP; 365 WT
2015: 5,605 total; 4,058 main; 981 UT; 338 T; 114 WP; 55 WT
2016: 1,853 total; 1,608 main; 97 UT; 94 T; 29 WP; 25 WT
2017: 6,952 total; 6,803 main; 32 UT; 52 T; 2 WT
2018: 5,829 total; 5,053 main; 215 UT; 354 T; 78 WP; 55 WT
2019: 352 total; 117 main; 109 UT; 36 T; 86 WP.

Corbett's last 500 edits go back to May 2018. That's when he more or less stopped editing, other than to work on an article by request in January 2019.

In May 2019, he returned.

• One of his first interactions is typical Corbett:

  An editor with like 100 edits asks why the article Elizabeth Mallet says she was born in 1672 but her husband died 11 years later in 1683. [4]

  Corbett's response: "Your ignorance does you no credit." [5]

  The other editor objects to "a huffy puffy responder". [6]

  Corbett's response: "How about minding your own business and stop trying to get under the skin of other editors?" [7]

  Another editor intervenes: "How about explaining the term instead of behaving insufferably?" [8]

  Corbett's response: "How about you fuck off?" [9]

• To another editor: This is supposed to be an example of Wikipedia's best work, not an example of how we can't phrase something correctly. [10]
• To another: Why don't you just fuck off back to whichever stone it is that you live under? [11]
• To another, after calling an RfA "quite simply ridiculous" [12]: What leads you to believe that I give a rat's arse about my topic ban? [13]
• To another: I will do as I please regardless of what you or anyone else may say. [14]
• To another: I don't regard it as any kind of privilege being allowed to edit here, quite the reverse really, so what is there to lose? [15]
• About WMF's ED: I like Katherine Maher, but only as a decoration, which is undoubtedly what she was hired for. [16]
• To another editor: ... your attitude is at best inconsistent and at worst downright dishonest; I'm going for dishonest. [17]
• Opposes an RfA because The candidate shows poor judgement in the timing of this nomination and in her membership of WiR. [18]
• It'll be a cold day in hell before I ask you for anything Sandstein, much less bow to your authoritarian style of "management" ... do your worst and see exactly how little I care for you or for what Wikipedia has become. [19]
• At this point, he was blocked for one month by Sandstein. Upon his return...
• More stuff about Sandstein:
  • So, what difference does the Sandstein robot believe that has he has achieved by his customary heavy-handedness? [20]
  • ... the odious Sandstein ... [21]
  • Heck, I'm sure that Sandstein is already looking for his AE enforcement bludgeon. [22]
  • And herein lies the stupidity of ArbCom and its unpaid goons like Sandstein. [23]
  • I wonder how many others he hovers over like some evil bird of prey? [24]
• Calls MJL ... some clown ... [25] and says ... he does not take the trouble to read the sources ... [26]
• About Wikipedian "cult members": I wouldn't piss on any of them if they were on fire. [27]
• Gravedancing at Ritchie's talk page maybe you'll reflect on this episode the next you feel like slagging me off. [28] and Gravedancers like Ritchie333 ought to expect to have their graves danced on. [29] and more on his own talk page [30]
• Calling EEng an incompetent gutter-snipe [31] and a bull in a fucking china shop [32] and said Your reading skills as are almost as bad as your writing skills, but both are admittedly better than your comprehension skills; this is the only thing I have to say to you. [33] and EEng ought not to be allowed within a country mile of any FA/GA. [34]
• To yet another editor: I expect you think you're being clever, but you're a long way off with your stupid comments. [35]
• About an admin page protecting Moors murders: This is beyond stupid. [36]
• And Corbett recently writes: In real life I'm about as charming a person as you're ever likely to meet, with one exception; I have absolutely no time at all for idiots. [37]
• The stuff about the 3 months AE remedy is a sideshow. Any admin can block for incivility, and there's no reason to treat this editor differently than any other. There has been plenty of incivility in the one week since his last one month block expired. That wasn't long enough to be preventative, so an escalation is in order. Somebody please block this editor for two months and let's get back to building an encyclopedia. – Levivich 21:32, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by (username)

Result concerning Eric Corbett

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

(comments moved up)

• Galobtter, seriously, you shouldn't post in the Uninvolved admins section when you're the filer. Please put any and all comments in the "Additional comments by editor filing complaint" section. Bishonen | talk 12:13, 11 August 2019 (UTC).[reply]

• I concur. This is confusing. Galobtter already has a section in which to place additional comments: the opening section. El_C 12:16, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I've yet to look at the context for the diffs listed, but the persistent gravedancing on Ritchie333's talk page were unbecoming and lacked compassion. El_C 13:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Sandstein: you went with a maximalist interpretation of consensus last time — as one uninvolved admin who participated, I was prepared to block for a few days, for example. Taking into account that you've gone with a multiplier of the last block and the fact that you closed this request so swiftly, it's probably best that someone else closes this request. I, myself, tend to consider a 3 month block to be excessive for these violations — which admittedly, I've yet to look closely into, just to be clear. Again, I'm not greatly familiar with the user, to be perfectly upfront. El_C 15:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @El C: I agree that on their own, these edits would merit nowhere close to three months of a block. But this is not a matter of discretionary sanctions, and we have no discretion as regards the length of the block we are to apply. The remedy mandates an escalation from one month to three (and then to ArbCom), as discussed below. I also do not intend to recuse myself from this case or other matters regarding Eric Corbett. As far as I can tell, any supposed involvement of me with him stems from the fact that I have taken enforcement actions against him, and that he has criticized these actions (as is entirely usual in such cases). As WP:INVOLVED makes clear, an admin who interacts with a user only in an administrative capacity, as I have with Eric Corbett, is not considered involved as a result of these interactions. But, to make my view even clearer, the enforcement action that I took and might again take in this case is not based on the diff in which I am mentioned, but on the other diffs. Sandstein 15:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Sandstein: The point is that there hasn't been any blocks in four years, so maybe it would have made sense to block for a few days and seek clarification at ARCA during that time. The block could always be further increased. But you went with the letter of the law (one month), which I'm saying, in context, was a mistake and outside AE consensus. El_C 15:30, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I find that Mendaliv sums up the situation well. The first three diffs are responses to equally problematic behaviour. We either accept a certain amount of rough-and-tumble when editors disagree strongly over an issue, or we ensure that the instigators of breaches carry the bulk of the opprobrium for those breaches. How many times do I have to draw attention to User:Geogre/Comic to make the point?
  The fourth diff was not directly provoked, but I understand Eric's antipathy toward admins because of his poor treatment by some of them over the years. Eric had not long returned from a month-long AE block by Sandstein where Sandstein had unilaterally removed Eric's talk page access as a further undiscussed (and unlogged) sanction, so I'm not surprised that Sandstein was the target when Eric lashed out against some of the the iniquities that arise from Arbitration Enforcement and those who enforce them. That's not to say I condone it, but I feel we are well past the point where we need to be looking for other means for avoiding Eric being drawn into conflict. It's been quite clear for years that blocks are not a useful tool in these circumstances because they plainly have not changed Eric one iota, beyond embittering him with his tormentors.
  Between October 2015 and July 2019, Eric was not blocked for any reason. During those four years, he made over 15,000 edits – the overwhelming majority of which were to mainspace – despite carrying sanctions. It is only the recent flare-up last month and its fall-out that has brought him back here, and we ought to be taking actions that restore the situation of the prior four years, not further inflamimg the problem. I'm strongly opposed to blocking in this instance and suggest instead much more dialogue with Eric to see how we can better make use of his undisputed skills and avoid further unpleasantries. --RexxS (talk) 12:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• The request has merit. The edits at issue violate the ArbCom decision that is to be enforced.
  I have taken note that one of the edits mentions me, but I am not recusing myself because of this. If I had to recuse myself because of being mentioned, all editors could immunize themselves against enforcement actions by preemptively insulting or otherwise attempting to incite conflicts with all admins active at AE and all arbitrators. This would render the enforcement process ineffective. That cannot be the intent of the Arbitration Committee.
  In enforcement of the decision, Eric Corbett must be blocked. The decision requires that the duration of this block be set to three months, because the previous block (for a topic ban violation in enforcement of the same decision) was of one month in duration. I am interpreting the remedy such that its escalation pattern includes any blocks in application of the topic ban provided for in the same decision. Even if that were not the case, there was another one-month block in enforcement of the civility restriction by Keilana. That this block was cut short does not mean that it must not be taken into account for the purposes of the mandatory escalation pattern set forth in the decision.
  The decision also instructs: "The enforcing administrator may also at their discretion fully protect Eric Corbett's talk page for the duration of the block." I am exercising this discretion because I had to remove talk page access from Eric Corbett the last time around as well, after he continued to violate the topic ban after being blocked.
  I note that Eric Corbett has declined to respond here, but has implicitly threatened evading sanctions through sock accounts or IPs. This, too, indicates that a block is required.
  Because the conduct of other parties is not covered by the decision to be enforced here, it cannot be examined here. If needed, other venues can be used for this. Sandstein 13:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I have explained in the closing statement above why I did not recuse myself from acting on the enforcement request. In addition, the remedy at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions at GGTF#Eric Corbett prohibited instructs: "Any blocks under this provision are arbitration enforcement actions and may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard." Accordingly, any discussion about this case elsewhere is inappropriate, and I do not intend to comment further about it outside of an appeal by Eric Corbett at WP:AE. For the same reasons, I am hatting your comment and my response to it. Sandstein 14:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I am re-opening this thread and undoing the enforcement action (for now) because I was made aware that Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement_2#Enforcement_of_Eric_Corbett's_sanctions_(alternative) instructs a minimum discussion time of 24 hours. It is regrettable that this is not mentioned in the original decision. My view remains otherwise unchanged. Sandstein 14:23, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sandstein: You are far too involved with this request to even consider taking enforcement action. Your earlier block was the proximate cause of Eric's comment, and that comment was unambiguously critical of you. You are not sufficiently distanced from this request. If sufficient other admins agree with your opinion, there are plenty of them who are clearly uninvolved and available to close this request. Your attempt to impose your own close is unbecoming an admin and leads to the community losing faith in this mechanism of dispute resolution. --RexxS (talk) 15:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I am not convinced that a block is warranted on this record. The action suggested by Sandstein is blatantly excessive and certainly should not be taken. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe that while Sandstein may not be formally "involved" in the policy sense, it will be damaging if he is the administrator who closes this discussion, particularly if he does so in a way that no other admin endorses. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:19, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Newyorkbrad: Thanks for this feedback; you do have a point with it. As regards the "excessive" length, what is your view as to the discretion admins have about the block length? It seems to me that the remedy removes such discretion by specifying the exact length of the blocks that are to be applied. Sandstein 15:25, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Sandstein: Although sanctions usually involve a formula such as "up to a month", which are designed to allow Adminstrator discretion, in this case the process is outlined clearly in the Arbitration Case:

        The first two such blocks shall be of 72 hours duration, increasing thereafter for each subsequent breach to one week, one month, and three months. Any blocks under this provision are arbitration enforcement actions and may only be reviewed or appealed at the arbitration enforcement noticeboard. Should a fifth block (three months) prove necessary, the blocking administrator must notify the Arbitration Committee of the block via a Request for Clarification and Amendment so that the remedy may be reviewed.

        There is no need for discretion on the length of the block in this case, but discretion is called for in determining whether a block is the most appropriate sanction in this case. If it is, we are all now aware of the steps that the enforcing admin must follow, and have no further excuse for disregarding them. --RexxS (talk) 16:00, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• (edit conflict) Eric should be blocked for three months per the remedy or not at all. I see no discretion to impose a block of a different duration. Also, per the remedy, ArbCom must be notified if a 3-month block is imposed. Sandstein should not be the blocking admin. I agree with that part of NYB's comments. Galobtter should not have posted in this section, but I am reluctant to move their comments because of the responses. They also appear to be wrong about the remedy (Eric's block log is not easy to follow). Although it has nothing to do with the issue of belittling other editors, I also do not like Eric's statement about editing with IPs (I see nothing to imply that he would created named accounts). Eric can be sly, though, and it wouldn't surprise me if he were stating a "fact" as opposed to making a threat. Finally, in my view, "unpaid goons" is an insult, no matter what "goon" might mean in some context in England. Eric knows more than most of us about language, but I think we should take such a statement at face value, not some extended play on words. In case it's not clear, I have not argued that Eric should be blocked.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:11, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Bbb23: I don't understand what it means that you're unwilling to move Galobtter's post from this section "because of the responses". The only responses directly to Galobtter have been requests for him to move his comment. That said, I think it would be better if he moved it himself. Perhaps my ping above[38] didn't work, as he has neither complied nor replied; I'll ask him on his page. Bishonen | talk 20:55, 11 August 2019 (UTC).[reply]

• The mandatory escalating block lengths specified at Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Interactions_at_GGTF#Eric_Corbett_prohibited are for the case of a single uninvolved administrator enforcing violations of the sanction. One of their intended functions (IMO) was to prevent random admins from doing stupid things like blowing up the 'pedia by indeffing Eric for a minor infraction.
  The single-admin enforcement approach was abandoned and replaced with Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement_2#Enforcement_of_Eric_Corbett's_sanctions_(alternative) and the mandatory escalating block lengths were superseded by Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Arbitration_enforcement_2#Enforcement_of_restrictions which clearly states that

  Should any user subject to a restriction in this case violate that restriction, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year. (emphasis added)

  "Any user" obviously includes Eric Corbett and nowhere in the amendment page does it mention a specific schedule of mandatory escalating block lengths. So no, we are not facing a binary choice here of either "3 months" or "no block". We still have discretion.
  If somebody wants to go back to the (IMO silly) system of mandatory scheduled block lengths they can file a request at ARCA. But until then we can use the discretion we're clearly allowed by the amendment, following the principle that unless Arbcom explicitly limits administrator discretion, administrators have discretion. ~Awilley (talk) 17:21, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Without commenting on the merits of the request, I wanted to point out that the provision you're referring to applies only in cases which include an enforceable remedy but which do not include case-specific enforcement provisions passed by the Committee (emphasis added). In this case, there is a case-specific enforcement provision. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 22:16, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Hehe, a model of clarity. Now I know why I stay away from AE, and the one time I break my "rule" it involves Eric to boot. Stupid, stupid ...--Bbb23 (talk) 17:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• @Mendaliv: I don't think it's that ambiguous. Read it carefully. Sanctions are different from Enforcement. The sanction (EC prohibited from shouting, swearing, belittling) is confirmed, but the enforcement procedure is changed (requiring 24 hrs at AE). Nowhere on that page does it say anything about continuing a special schedule of block lengths, whether the clock should be reset to zero, or whether the next block should be 3 months. It does give the standard enforcement provision which I quoted above. I think an ARCA at this moment is a bad idea. We don't need more drama: an amendment request charged by Eric being on the line for a 3-month block. We can resolve this here using the current wording of AE2. ~Awilley (talk) 18:51, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm not convinced AE2#Enforcement really lets us impose a block shorter than three months; it's boilerplate, included in every full arbcom decision, and this decision explicitly confirms the previous remedy (adding only that complaints must be brought here and must be left open 24 hours). The question of amending the sanction to allow discretion in block length was raised on the proposed decision page, and no such amendment passed.
  That said, three months for this set of diffs would be perverse. I can't support it. —Cryptic 18:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• I endorse the comments above by Newyorkbrad and RexxS. This is the time for de-escalation not another prolonged shitstorm. Accordingly, I oppose a three month block and I strongly suggest to Sandstein that he let other administrators deal with Eric and his eccentricities. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 17:26, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• I oppose a block and ask that Sandstein allow other admins to deal with this. The goading at Talk:Moors murders is clear. This is an important featured article that Eric has put a lot of work into, which must be taken into account. I follow RexxS in pointing to User:Geogre/Comic. SarahSV ^(talk) 18:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• I am thoroughly unimpressed by the behavior of several of the editors at Talk:Moors_murders, and for that reason, though I think Eric's comments are obviously blockable, they shouldn't be met with a block in this instance. That said; I'm beginning to lose patience with the "he was goaded" defense. Editors who do content work in difficult areas are goaded on a daily basis (and so are admins, but well, we signed up for it). Most do not fly off the handle in response. For someone in whose defense "you need to have a thicker skin" is frequently used, Eric really needs to recalibrate his approach, and be baited less easily.
  Unfortunately, though I and several others are recommending against a block here, it doesn't really matter very much. The rules of AE are such that even if all 1147 other admins recommend against a block, the last admin remaining would still be allowed by policy to implement a 3-month block. All we have is persuasion, so with that in mind: Sandstein, I think that a fair bit of what has been said at ANI and further above is quite wrong; by the letter of the law, you are not WP:INVOLVED here, and you are quite correct in saying that being the target of abuse from user X does not make an admin INVOLVED with respect to user X. That said, the purpose of AE is to return a topic to a situation where productive editing can resume. If you close this with a block, that purpose is not going to be achieved, because it will begin another shitstorm, even though your actions may be allowed by policy. That isn't particularly fair to you, but it's how things are. You've made your opinions clear; you should let another admin close this. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:54, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  (edit conflict)@Mendaliv: Yes, any admin could probably close this as "no action taken", and a reversal of such a closure would be inappropriate; but admins aren't constrained by AE in their ability to implement discretionary sanctions, either; an admin could implement a block in total ignorance of this discussion. There is actually a very good reason for the rules being as they are (or at least one); it's so that bad behavior doesn't go unsanctioned because the admins are unable to come to a consensus. However, that relies on the admins here displaying good judgement. If at all a case were brought to ARBCOM (or ARCA), it would have to demonstrate either that a specific admin was displaying bad judgement (ie a standard desysop case) or that the rules as written were leading to bad outcomes. A case arguing that "Admin X shouldn't be allowed to act at AE because they ignore consensus" isn't going to fly, because discretionary sanctions are, well, discretionary, and consensus isn't required to enforce them. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  (ec) @Vanamonde93: Thank you for this feedback. I strongly disagree with you in one point: AE's purpose is clearly not "to return a topic to a situation where productive editing can resume". That is the job of the elected members of ArbCom, whose decisions are supposed to bring this about. The purpose of AE (outside of discretionary sanctions) is to enforce these decisions, not to second-guess them or to exercise discretion. In this case, my reading of the sanction is that it mandates a three-month block, whatever we might think of the value of this in these circumstances. Unlike you, I see also much in this entire episode that probably needs clarification at ARCA, but this should probably wait until after a decision has been made here. For the moment, I'll take into consideration the views of other admins above, and wait to see what others propose to do. But I believe that not to take action here, in the face of flagrant, severe and repeated incivility, and a clear ArbCom mandate for action, would be to signal to the community and to the WMF that, even after the WP:FRAM debacle, that the community cannot effectively address endemic harassment and incivility by established editors. I strongly criticized the WMF for bypassing community dispute resolution mechanisms in the Fram case, but I'm not sure I could criticize them again if we do nothing here. Sandstein 19:17, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Sandstein: Our mandate here is absolutely to exercise discretion. That's why they are discretionary sanctions, not automatic sanctions. If you want to clarify that at ARCA, feel free; I would be very interested in the outcome; but as long as the policy allows us discretion, I will use it. I agree that Eric's comments were beyond the pale, but what we have here is a multi-way conversation that degenerated into a total mess, in which Eric was not the only one to blame; and I don't want to sanction him and not the others simply because his actions are restricted by an ARBCOM decision and the others' are not. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:23, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  @Vanamonde93 and Awilley: I believe that what we have here is a misunderstanding. What we are applying here are not discretionary sanctions, which do give admins discretion to act in certain topic areas. We are instead directly applying a single remedy that pertains only to a single editor. Therefore, there is no discretion, and any consideration of the context of the conduct at issue would be an usurpation of authority from ArbCom. If you look at WP:AC/DS, you'll see that "Eric Corbett" is not among the topics for which discretionary sanctions are authorized. Sandstein 19:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  User:Sandstein you are of course correct that the rules of Discretionary Sanctions don't apply here. I still stand by my point that by requiring a 24-hour discussion at AE, Arbcom intended for the consensus of that discussion to determine whether or not a block is applied. ~Awilley (talk) 19:41, 11 August 2019 (UTC) [reply]

  Re: "Unfortunately, though I and several others are recommending against a block here, it doesn't really matter very much. The rules of AE are such that even if all 1147 other admins recommend against a block, the last admin remaining would still be allowed by policy to implement a 3-month block." I disagree. Arbcom mandating a 24-hr discussion at AE makes it clear that they want the outcome to be determined by a consensus of administrators at AE, and not by the first admin who sees fit to pull the trigger on a block. ~Awilley (talk) 19:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  I'm not sure about that at all; if consensus were mandated, they would have said so. IIRC that provision was to prevent precipitate admin actions; not necessarily to require admin consensus, which would be unprecedented for discretionary sanctions. I agree that it would be terrible judgement for admin 1148 to act as I outlined above; but the problem there would be bad judgement, not violating policy. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Replying partially to this, partially to your comment higher up that "consensus isn't required" to enforce DS. One of the defining features of Discretionary Sanctions is that they can be overridden by consensus. See WP:AC/DS#Modifications_by_administrators A consensus of administrators here trumps that single admin acting on their own. ~Awilley (talk) 19:27, 11 August 2019 (UTC) [reply]

  True; but I think that in many important situations "consensus against sanctioning" may not equate to "consensus to overturn implemented sanction", and a sanctioned user would have to appeal for the unilateral sanction to be overturned; which of course many can't be bothered to do. Vanamonde (Talk) 19:31, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  Right, but an admin initiating a block against the feedback of most colleagues should obviously tread lightly, and ideally should reevaluate their position if strong consensus is opposed, since they're probably missing something... Lord Roem ~ (talk) 20:30, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]