Requests for amendment

Initiated by Lightmouse (talk) at 22:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected

Date delinking arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

Remedies

• 7.1): "Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia."

• 8): "Lightmouse is limited to using only the account 'Lightmouse' to edit."

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Lightmouse (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

• Jarry1250 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• [1] (diff of notification of this thread on Jarry1250's talk page)

Amendment 1

• 7.1) amended to: "Lightmouse is indefinitely prohibited from using any automation whatsoever on Wikipedia, except that he is permitted to do so in the field of ‘units of measure’ on a three-month trial basis, under the supervision of User:Jarry1250."

• 8) amended to "Lightmouse is limited to using only the account 'Lightmouse' to edit, except that during the three-month trial he is permitted to use the account 'Lightbot' to edit only in the field of units of measure, under the supervision of User:Jarry1250, in accordance with the relevant section of the BAG approval.¹"

Statement by Lightmouse

I've been a Wikipedian for more than six years, and have played a key role in ensuring that metric and non-metric units are provided in the clearest and most conventional ways for our international readers. I was early in recognising the value of automation for janitorial work in such a large, global project, and taught myself automation skills. I believe I have significantly benefited Wikipedia. Many editors have used and continue to use my scripts; some have been inspired to create their own.

I edited first as Bobblewik (talk · contribs), then as Editore99 (talk · contribs), then (from 2007) as Lightmouse (talk · contribs). The name changes were due to forgotten passwords. I created two bot accounts: Bobblebot (talk · contribs) (unused) and Lightbot (talk · contribs).

I became a key player in encouraging a more discerning approach to internal linking, particularly dates and times. In the early days this resulted in a number of blocks. I probably didn't respond in the right way to sysops who blocked me, finding it easy to think of them as "involved". I believe I’ve learned from this. I’ve always been polite to users who have questioned my edits.

Finding the adversarial atmosphere of the case difficult to cope with, I ultimately declined to defend myself. I now regret my failure to participate properly, which I realise is frowned upon. I was strongly criticised during the case over a bot application to BAG in which I failed to declare previous usernames, and blocks thereunder. I realise this lack of transparency on my part made me look untrustworthy. My wikifriends have convinced me not to state that I didn’t appreciate the significance of this lack of disclosure because it would not be credible to the Committee. I can only apologise for my actions and for any other perceived indiscretions, and state that I have learned from these situations.

Since my return after the 12-month ban I have resumed manual janitorial work. I would like the chance to show good faith in the use of my skills in automation for the benefit of the project. Therefore, I am applying for an amendment to two of the three current remedies so that I might return in an open, narrowly defined way to automated editing. A sysop member of the BAG, Jarry1250 (talk · contribs), has agreed to supervise my contributions during a trial period. Lightmouse (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by other editors

Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.

Wikipedia benefits from experienced automation experts such as Lightmouse. When I first became aware of Lightmouse, I found that he was always acutely sensitive to feedback from upset editors after a bot produced unexpected and undesirable results. He quickly (typically in a matter of hours) would tweak the code to make the bot properly deal with whatever novel situations arose. Much of the to-do with Lightmouse’s involvement with date-related bot activities arose from his moving forward when he believed a clear community consensus existed on date linking. In the end, the consensus he believed existed at that time proved to be well founded and is the current consensus today—and our guidelines reflect that consensus. Since the date-related conflict was rather unique (a particularly contentious issue with impassioned editors on both sides), there is no reason to think that Lightmouse can’t be trusted to go back to doing what he did before he got swept up in the date-jihad maelstrom: make and run sophisticated bots that improve Wikipedia far more consistently and faster than humans can. Greg L (talk) 01:17, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have found Lightmouse proactive, reactive, and curteous at all times. Lightmouse has been a great inspiration to me, not only because he demonstrated to me that he cares deeply about the project, but also because he understands the potential benefits of automation for this project, which is filled with quirky inconsistencies due to the inherent collaborative nature that lend themselves well to standardisation and automated maintenance. I missed his presence from the project, and have been motivated thus to take up scripting myself - of course, I cannot fill the huge gap left by Lightmouse. His remorse appears sincere and heartfelt; his gradual return to automation, under the parameters laid out appears to be well thought out, and seems to me to correctly balance the safeguards which the project may reasonably expect with the right of editors to engage in automation. I heartily support this appeal. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 02:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I too have always found Lightmouse helpful and unfailingly courteous, and always willing to act promptly to fix any problems (which were few) in his scripts and bot. I believe that WP has benefited greatly from his involvement and will continue to do so if he's allowed to use his skills to the full. I heartily support this request. Colonies Chris (talk) 08:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have read the statements by Users Greg L, Ohconfucius, and Colonies Chris. I would like to say that my own experience strongly supports what they say. Tony (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not much more I can add to the above, except to say that I wholeheartedly agree.  HWV258.  09:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't say anything else about Lightmouse without repeating what those above me have already said, so I won't. I urge the ArbCom to give Lightmouse a second chance, as they have with other parties to the date delinking case. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have, to the best of my knowledge, never interacted with Lightmouse before this present appeal - that is to say, I have no prior axes to grind, only good faith. Okay. So now I think about it, it seems the best plan is thus (and I shall post this suggestion to Lightmouse's talk momentarily): 1) Lightmouse submits a new (date/unit) BRFA; 2 or 3) The BRFA is endorsed by Arbcom - they amend prior remedies to allow its passage; 3 or 2) The BRFA passes (or fails) the standard process, which will include a short trial. 4) Instead of being free to continue as he pleases, Lightmouse will remain under trial conditions for three months. Put simply, he will be on best behaviour and expected to be a top operator in responding to comments and complaints; he will be expected to, and I will, check a sample of his own edits at regular intervals; admins and others will be more heavy-handed in stopping the bot from continuing. That is my recommendation at least. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 16:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds fine to me. The BRFA will be called 'Lightbot 4'. It will be a copy of the units of measure section of Lightbot 3. It will not contain any reference to dates. Thus the text will be:

"I would like to make it explicit that I will be editing units of measure in a variety of forms.

• A 'unit of measure' is any sequence of characters that relates to measurement of things. This includes but is not limited to units defined by the BIPM SI, the US NIST or any other weights and measures organisation or none at all. This includes but is not limited to time, length, area, volume, mass, speed, power.
• Edits may add or modify metric or non-metric units.
• Edits may modify the format.
• Edits may add, remove or modify templates that involve units.
• Edits may add, remove or modify links to units."

If I need to start the BRFA now, just let me know. Regards. Lightmouse (talk) 11:45, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

BRFA started, as directed by Kirill. See BRFA at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval#Lightbot_4. Regards Lightmouse (talk) 13:04, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• I would like to pick up on one point made above, add a general point about bots such as this, and point out one illuminating exchange that occurred elsewhere.

• (1) Ohconfucius talks above about "...the potential benefits of automation for this project, which is filled with quirky inconsistencies due to the inherent collaborative nature that lend themselves well to standardisation and automated maintenance". In my opinion, this strikes to the heart of the conflicts that arise between those who would like to see the guidelines presented in the Manual of Style implemented and enforced across the entirety of Wikipedia with the use of bots, and those who think that such an approach will create more drama and conflict than it is worth (as individual editors and groups of editors object to bots sweeping through and making changes that at times seem arcane to those who have not followed the discussions at the Manual of Style). The fundamental divide is between those who want to see order and consistency brought to pages across the whole of Wikipedia, and those who think an organic process is better and less disruptive. I would have thought a wider debate on precisely when automation on this sort of scale is needed (and when it is not needed) would be a good idea, and would be a good idea for any process that has the potential to affect every page on the whole of Wikipedia.
• (2) In my experience with bots such as this, a common problem is that they try to do too much and over-reach. Even the best bot operator in the world will get overwhelmed if they try to run a bot that makes thousands of similar but slightly different changes, that many people won't understand. Such bots need to be split into smaller tasks and those who frequent the Manual of Style pages and support such bots should have the patience to wait for a series of smaller tasks to be run, rather than everything being done in one go.
• (3) There are still levels of aggression, incivility and battling to be seen with those who support this and similar proposals. The first two editors above (Greg L and Ohconfucius) who showed enthusiastic support for Lightmouse were also the first two editors from this request to turn up at the bot request (where a discussion was already in progress), where they promptly escalated matters with these edits: [2], [3], [4] (note the reference to gatekeepers, enemas, and the gratuitous insertion of a link to an image depicting a 'gatekeeper'). Tony1 was quick to intervene and restrain them with this advice, and Dabomb87 moved the comments to the talk page, but I would suggest arbitrators consider what happened there and whether any form of restrictions are needed to prevent a similar dynamic arising again where a familiar group of users turn up to use inflammatory language to defend Lightmouse, his bot, or his proposals.

I hope that some of the problems that occurred with this sort of approach in the past can be avoided here. Carcharoth (talk) 01:21, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Carcharoth, I agree Greg's and Ohconfucius's comments were a bit over-the-top and reminiscent of the old toxic MOSNUM discussions, but I think further restrictions, given that this was a one-time incident quickly contained, would be a bit much. Of course, if that occurs again, I couldn't blame you (or rather, the non-recused ArbCom members) for pursuing additional action. Dabomb87 (talk) 16:39, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. My intentions didn’t come through as I had intended and I must apologize for my post, now located here. When I wrote that, I perceived that Lightmouse was the recipient of unnecessary third-degree by Anomie. But, apparently that is a legitimate role of Anomie’s so I shouldn’t have criticized him for being out of line. I am truly sorry for that. As for my “gratuitous” image when I linked to “gatekeeper” I had intended that to be a bit of humor to defuse the seriousness of the matter. Seeing Carcharoth’s reaction, I clearly failed at that too, and just made things even more serious. For that too, I apologize. Greg L (talk) 18:00, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• What Greg said. I apologise. Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 08:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot say this request encourages me. The best summary of the situation is this comment from Anomie: Wikipedia:Bots/Requests_for_approval/Lightbot_4 is a vague request (it took a while even to get specifics out of Lightmouse) for a general-purpose bot which can do anything Lightmouse fancies on a wide array of topics, some of which aren't even units.

The assertion above that Lightmouse is particularly competent at automation seems rather doubtful; he admits he cannot write a bot which will count how often it has edited a page or queue changes; he is unwilling or unable to produce a bot which will write edit summaries reflecting what it actually does; and I see no reason to believe that this bot (if overriden by a human editor), will not come back and revert war.

Anomie also remarks, correctly, that the request for approval is backed by Lightmouse's fanclub at MOSNUM; so - aside for Jarry (I hope he realizes what he is getting into) - is this request for amendment. This is the same group and the same situation as the date-delinking case; a small group of editors would very much like to make sweeping changes of format for which they have no consensus beyond themselves - so they want a bot to do whatever changes to units they decide they want. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:45, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, date-delinking was born out of a desire to improve WP. Date-delinking received enormous community support (via the various RfCs), and the end result of delinking was the removal of almost all linked dates (and date fragments) on millions of pages—something that has received little negative feedback. The hard-working and dedicated efforts of the "fanclub" [sic] should be commended as the results are a simpler and easy-to-use WP for all viewers and editors.  HWV258.  21:34, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly; all these disruptive initiatives have been produced by a desire to improve Wikipedia. The reason for the ArbCom decision was the absence of any consideration that others might not feel the same about what does improve it; this proposal that Lightmouse/Bobblewick, of all people, should have a general purpose bot to impose his whims shows that nothing has changed, and the children of Robespierre still wish to improve us, whatever we may want. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:11, 17 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quoting you, PMA: …children of Robespierre still wish to improve us. Robespierre is the architect of the Reign of Terror and was executed in a coup d'etat. The issue here is the technical merits of the bot. Calling others “children of Robespierre” was designed to provoke. I know that; you know that. Moreover, both “bot to impose his whims” and “[who] still wish to improve us” are failures to assume good faith and are arguably personal attacks. Please behave yourself if you are going to weigh in here. Greg L (talk) 01:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No, they are failures to observe good faith. It was a bad idea to give the Jacobins a guillotine; I'm not sure giving these doctrinaires a bot is a good idea either. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recuse, as I presented evidence in this case. Steve Smith (talk) 22:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Recuse as I recused in the original case. Carcharoth (talk) 22:30, 11 July 2010 (UTC) Have now made a statement above. 01:22, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Lightmouse, I am willing to give you another chance to engage in automation work, provided that it is done under appropriate supervision from BAG to ensure that we don't fall back into any repeats of your past conflicts. Having said that, the Lightbot 3 BAG approval request included a number of functions that are not relevant to what you seem to be proposing, or that would be inappropriate in the current circumstances. I would like to see a current statement from BAG indicating specifically which functions you will be performing during this trial, and how they will monitor the results, before we move forward. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 23:39, 11 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Lightmouse/Jarry, please go ahead and move the request through BRFA; once it's verified and approved by BAG, we can pass the necessary motions on our end to allow you to actually implement it. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 12:36, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Generally I agree with Kirill; I'd like to make sure we've got the details down before going any further here. Shell ^babelfish 23:03, 12 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Per Kirill. — Rlevse • Talk • 02:20, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Concur with Kirill; I'd like to see the BAG reviews before implementation but, if all looks good, then it will be a straightforward matter. Risker (talk) 02:11, 16 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Agreed as well. I'm not opposed to allowing a BAG reviewed automated process. — Coren ^(talk) 13:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• As long as it's reviewed by the appropriate people and the details made clear, I have no problem with it. SirFozzie (talk) 20:42, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by Martin (talk) at 20:58, 7 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 7

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Martintg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) (initiator)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• N/A

Amendment 1

• [5]
• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 7 to end the topic ban that applies to Martintg and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Martintg

In the previous six months I've taken stock, while taking a break to pursue some postgrad study. During that time I've reflected on what went wrong. I joined the maillist primarily as a convenient way to socially network with a bunch of people I've come to know through contributing to Wikipedia. Unfortunately this convenience led members of the list, myself included, into behaviour that crossed the line. This was due to a kind of mob mentality and a sense of hubris that developed along with it. This I regret.

Since December I created some articles on German politicians and political organisations and had sourced a small number of Estonian biographies without any issues (many were not notable so I hadn't bothered with those) after I requested and was granted a relaxation to my topic ban[6].

I had been working on a range of arts and literature topics for Wikiproject Estonia, and had filled in many significant gaps such as Culture of Estonia, along with a lot of related articles on literary figures (for example August Sang, Villem Grünthal-Ridala, Johannes Aavik), movements (e.g. Arbujad, Young Estonia and Siuru) and institutions like Art Museum of Estonia and Estonian Literary Museum. (A more comprehensive list is on my user page). There is still a lot to do, as you can see by the red links in Template:Culture_of_Estonia. Despite my continuing studies I expect to devote a little more of my time than in the past few months, as I do enjoy contributing my free time to Wikipedia, I would like to continue to expand this area.

PS Carcharoth expressed his concern in another request below at the slew of EEML-related appeals at around the same time. The timing of my submission here was based upon the completion of my exams, I was always going to submit a further amendment request at this time. That there happens to be a slew of requests from other people I hope has no bearing on this request.

Response to Igny's comments

Shortly after being granted permission to source a number of BLPs, I had an opportunity to undertake some study. Unfortunately about a month later, Igny involved me in an SPI case, however somebody kindly informed me of this via email. I can't recall having really interacted with him that much prior to the EEML case, so it was somewhat surprising that he would go after me like that.

Russavia also became involved in this SPI case too, as he did in a number of other AE cases launching complaints against Radeksz, Biruitorul and Biophys. Consequently the Russavia-Biophys ArbCom case was opened. I took that opportunity to request an interaction ban for Russavia. I believe I conducted myself correctly in that case and Shell even appreciated my decorum [7]. Igny ended up getting blocked for 31 hours[8] for misconduct on the case workshop.

Igny states I wasted everyone's time in that ArbCom case. It is true that I did waste a bit of time, it could have been spent more productively on my studies, but I think given the outcome it was well worth the effort. It's not a nice experience to be informed by email that some are still on the warpath. The way I see it, the bulk of the problems really boil down to personality clashes, some people are just implacably opposed to each other no matter what. Sad, but it's a fact of life. Probably in such cases interaction bans are the way to go when editors can't voluntarily refrain from finding fault and battling with others.

I'm perplexed at Igny's comments here, given that he hasn't made that many recent edits himself either. We all operate under different constraints. After completing the semester I found time from family and friends to source those BLPs that I had committed to sourcing. Wikipedia is a free project, which also means that anyone can devote as little or as much time as they can. I believe I'm a competent editor with an understanding of Wikipedia's policies. I've had a long time to re-think things during my self imposed "site ban", and I do "get it" now. I just want to get on and derive some enjoyment from contributing to topics that interest me while allowing others to do the same, without this battleground BS. 2009 was an adventure I do not want to repeat. --Martin (talk) 05:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further response to Igny's comments

I am some what mystified by Igny's claims of "our personal clashes in the past", as I can't recall a single instance where we might of clashed personally, apart from the recent SPI[9] Igny launched against me while I was away, let alone interacted to any significant degree on any particular article. I just scanned the EEML archive and Igny isn't mentioned at all, so he didn't appear on the list's radar. Perhaps he may have been somewhat radicalised by the EEML case itself, and may have adopted other people's past battles as his own. I hope that is not the case, since from what I have seen of Igny in the past, he seems to be quite a reasonable person with which I could work with.

As to Igny's question whether a topic ban is designed to demonstrate if an "editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes", note that I had edited German related topics in January and February with no problems, and I think I amply demostrated decorum in my response to an EE dispute not of my making thrust upon me by Igny in the form of the SPI in March and again in the follow-up Russavia-Biophy case (and note that I didn't involve Igny in my proposals presented in the case workshop). So the risk of problematic behaviour has been demonstrated to be nil. --Martin (talk) 00:48, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Biophy's comments

Notwithstanding the fact that Biophys may well be risking a violation of his topic ban by commenting here, my involvement in the Russavia-Biophys case was related to Russavia's behaviour in the SPI case[10], revealing personal information even when asked to stop, for which there was a FoF[11] and an Admonishment[12] and a Restriction[13]. It is true that I spent a bit too much time at the end of the case arguing for more equitable topic bans for the parties with Shell, as that end part did impact my study time a bit, and I probably ended up just annoying Shell too (sorry Shell). In that sense it was a distraction, but in terms of seeking an reciprocal interaction ban (which remains in force regardless of whether or not my topic ban is relaxed) was necessary and unavoidable under the circumstances. --Martin (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no battleground here. People are free to express their views or concerns on this page. I welcome this as it gives me an opportunity to respond as necessary to allay any legitimate concern. --Martin (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to The Four Deuce's comments

I've virtually never interacted with TFD in the past, the first time being when I voted "Keep" at this AfD [14] which resulted in "No Concensus". I did canvas that on the EEML and that was wrong, no bones about it. After the EEML ArbCom case began there a two more AfDs [15][16] where only two or three EEML members independently voted and these resulted in "No Concensus", despite the closing admin being made aware of the existance of the EEML case and its membership. Finally a 4th AfD[17] was initiated this year where absolutely no one from the EEML voted, yet it resulted in a "Keep". While it was clearly wrong to canvass the first AfD, non-involvement in the 4th actually resulted in an outcome I would have wanted anyway. Go figure.

And yet TFD appears to be continuing to invoke the EEML bogey man in that article, recently claiming "When the article was listed for deletion, they decided off-wiki to rename the article", when in fact the original move discussion had no EEML involvement and predated the AfD, in fact the very first AfD comment confirms that. I don't know why The Four Deuces is singling me out in particular and WP:Poking me with untrue stuff.

TFD's statement has in my view many misleading points, so I'll address them line by line:

• "Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry."

No, I didn't say that at all. There is nothing wrong with the individuals, but unfortunately a mob mentality developed and led some of us of otherwise good standing (I had a clear block log prior to joining the EEML) to cross the line, which I regret.

• "However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to."

Sure, the canvassing was wrong, I accept that, but I stand by the substance of all my edits (but in some cases not the form, i.e. the occasional edit warring). I not sure why I need to apologise to TFD though, I've not known TFD prior to the EEML case.

• "This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them."

This is an incredible blanket statement. TFD has no idea what my politics are, or that of other members, and I ended collaboration with the list at beginning of the case. The political viewpoints are as diverse as can be expected by the differing backgrounds and locations of the group members. For example, in my estimation, the majority of the group is for gun control and against Arizona's immigration laws.

• "They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality."

Again this is a nonsense blanket statement. I've always striven for neutrality, as you can see from the many articles I've created.

• "It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach."

This is an absolutely, flat out untrue.

• "Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes."

I don't know who TFD is referring to here, but I don't think I should become the whipping boy of all that he thinks is wrong with Wikipedia.

• "Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg."

Again I don't know who TFD is referring too here, my record shows that I have a relatively clean record in this regard, apart from a block for a 3RR violation that was applied 20 hours after I had undone my 4th revert, and a mis-applied block for alleged OUTING that never ocurred. In fact the Committee previously scrutinized my record and found no substantive policy violation [18]

I don't understand what TFD seeks to gain in continuing to flog the EEML dead horse, even insinuating there is some kind of far-right anti-Semitic agenda at play[19] (not the first time either, having to redact similar comment previously [20]), which I find somewhat offensive. I do wonder why I have become the whipping boy of people like TFD who I have never crossed paths with in the past. Nor is it likely that I will interact with him in the future as our interests are divergent. At least Piotrus has the benefit of real opponents with real history of interaction and real issues which can be worked on. But as far as I'm concerned, the EEML horse is truly dead and buried. --Martin (talk) 06:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Question to Rlevse

Could you provide some guidance as to the reasons for your opposition, given:

1. my previous relaxation [21] had caused no problem
2. my previously un-problematic record (clean block log prior to joining the EEML and this affirmation of my previously good standing), indicating there is no issue of recidivism
3. no violations of any WP:EEML sanctions (unlike Biruitorul and Radeksz, both who have had their topic bans lifted)
4. my expression of regret at the trouble caused by EEML membership and undertaking to put all that behind me
5. your explicit support for the relaxation of the topic ban for Radeksz[22] despite the strong concerns expressed by several editors who have a long history of interaction with him.

I just want to use my time to contribute something useful to the topics I've indicated above, all I ask is that I be treated fairly. --Martin (talk) 02:50, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Igny

I can not recommend the lift of the ban for Martin based on his recent WP activity. In the recent 100 edits he just wasted everyone's time when participating in Russavia-Biophys EEML-related ArbCom case, and after some break just when EEML case was due for review and just when others filed for an amendment Martin rushed with several BLP fixes for EE related persons as if it was simply done to satisfy the previous amendment and justify a new one. (Igny (talk) 04:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Update: I understand I could be too harsh in my statement and quite possibly our personal clashes in the past contributed to this. But in any case a "site-wide self-imposed ban" is not the right way to deal with topic bans. Topic bans were placed in part to reduce battleground mentality in controversial areas and productive work elsewhere was needed to demonstrate how an editor in question copes with withdrawal from the battleground. Just going into self-imposed exile for the length of the topic ban (regardless of the real life constraints) does poor job answering the question whether editor's problematic behavior occurs again when he returns to the EE disputes. I still think that Martin's lift of the ban is premature at the moment. Also tu quoque was not the right counter-argument to my point above.(Igny (talk) 13:19, 8 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Re NYB and SirFozzie, I understand that you are willing to put your trust in that Martintg will not return to the "previous behavior". Could you clarify by showing examples of particular behavior that might warrant reinstatement of the ban? (Igny (talk) 21:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by Biophys

I do not think that Martin can be blamed of the Russavia-Biophys case. This is obviously my fault. Martin was productive and created sixty six new pages, mostly on Estonia history. He can be productive again unless he allows himself to be distracted by arbitrations, SPI investigations [23][24] and other things like that. So, I support lifting the ban for Martin. However, looking at some comments around Martintg and Miacek requests, one can easily tell that the battleground did not go away. Honestly, I enjoy my topic ban. That was a good thing. Biophys (talk) 12:28, 8 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by The Four Deuces

I object to lifting this remedy. Considerable time was spent on the EEML case and its members, rather than accepting the facts presented, wasted months of time of arbitrators and witnesses and were very offensive to them. Martintg's defence is basically that he fell into the wrong crowd and he is sorry. However, Martintg does not mention any actions he took that he regrets, any articles that he and his colleagues edited and now wish to repair or any editor he offended he now wishes to apologize to. This group shared a minority political point of view and damaged the neutrality of numerous articles and continued to collaborate off-wiki even after the case was presented against them. They do not accept that Wikipedia articles should be neutral and tied up the time of numerous editors. While it may be that they will no longer coordinate their efforts, their approach as individuals is damaging to neutrality. It is irritating that as I and other editors were arguing with Martintg and his colleagues and they were presenting arguments against us that off-wiki there were agreeing that our arguments made sense and trying to develop a new approach. Surely editors like this drive away most of the editors we want to attract, people who have the ability to write articles and those who remain are tied up in silly disputes. Dispute resolution, reporting editors for 3RR, writing Wikiquette and ANI reports are extemely time-consuming and allowing editors like Martintg will only discourage capable editors who are discouraged by the processes to counter editors like Martintg. TFD (talk) 04:20, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Petri Krohn

I hate getting in anyway involved in the Wikipedia arbitration process and have thus far been able to avoid any involvement – so much so, that I have not even written a word to my defense in the now infamous WP:DIGWUREN case. However, someone, who wishes to remain anonymous, contacted me, and – knowing the strong feelings I have privately expressed about the issue at hand – implied that I am a pussy if I do not express my strongest objection to this motion. He also sent me evidence (see appendix) he had prepared in response to Martin's latest comments.

Martin's actions on the Internet, on and off Wikipedia, show that his only interest on the web is promoting a fringe nationalistic agenda, or in Wikipedia terms, he is a single purpose account. Since our paths first crossed sometime in early 2007 the underlying dispute has taken the form of a global ideological war over over the legacy of the 20th century. I believe in some ways the early editing disputes and the formulation of opposing positions on Wikipedia talk pages have later influenced the positions some of the main players in this battle have taken. I may be as much involved in this ideological battle as Marting is. However I have not used Wikipedia article space as a platform to promote my fringe ideas. I will rather let the Historical Truth Commission and the Simon Wiesenthal Center speak for me.

From this POVish point of expertise I can testify that Marting is the chief battle axe of the opposing side. He is not the benign Wikignome he now pretends to be. Anything he touches will turn into distortion of facts or into a political battlefield. His presence on Wikipedia, in the contested subjects, is venom to the key principle of neutral point-of-view. So far he has shown no interest in editing outside his chosen battlefield, for example in his field of professional expertise.

For several years now Martin has been waging a politically motivated attack campaign against me, that is my Wikipedia account and the real life me. This has extended to multiple forums on the Internet outside Wikipedia. In the evidence sent to me were new instances of this campaign, unknown to me previously. If this proposed motion were to pass, I feel that I will finally have to start an arbitration case against Marting on this issue.

I have no objections to Martin using his freedom of speech to promote his ideas on the Internet. However, I cannot see why – having broken the key principles of Wikipedia – he should again be given a license to distort Wikipedia to fit his political agenda. -- Petri Krohn (talk)

Statement by other editor

{Other editors are free to comment on this amendment as necessary. Comments here should be directed only at the above proposed amendment.}

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• Recused on EEML. Shell ^babelfish 19:50, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose — Rlevse • Talk • 02:14, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

will think on this more. — Rlevse • Talk • 01:54, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

• As with some of the other editors who were sanctioned in this decision, I would be agreeable to at least some curtailment or narrowing of the remedy—partly based on the feeling that the breadth of the remedy may have been wider than necessary to begin with, and in any event due to the lapse of time. Of course, if the remedy is lifted or narrowed, there would be a strong expectation that the problematic behaviors addressed in the original decision must not recur. Newyorkbrad (talk) 18:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Looking at this, I'd be willing to let this go, with the caveat that there's not much wiggle room here, and that a return to previous behaviors will mean it's near-immediate reinstatement. SirFozzie (talk) 20:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Initiated by — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk at 03:04, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Case affected

Eastern European mailing list arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

Clauses to which an amendment is requested

1. Remedy 3

List of users affected by or involved in this amendment

• Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
• Piotrus (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Confirmation that the above users are aware of this request

• Piotrus

Amendment 1

• [57]
• This is a request to amend EEML Remedy 3 to end the topic ban that applies to Piotrus and allow him to edit articles related to Eastern Europe.

Statement by Malik Shabazz

It has been more than six months since Piotrus was blocked and topic-banned. Since his return, he has been productive in other areas of Wikipedia. He has carefully observed the terms of his topic ban and avoided areas related to Eastern Europe.

Piotrus and I have a history. We got off on the wrong foot and found ourselves on opposite sides of edit wars that shouldn't have taken place. Since that time, he and I have mended fences. We've come to respect one another and I consider him one of my "Wikifriends". I was proud to have his support at my RfA.

Before his topic ban, Piotrus was very productive in articles having to do with Poland. He is responsible for 15 featured articles and 15 good articles (including 3 A-class articles) on Poland-related subjects.

In addition to his article-writing, Piotrus was the main force behind WP:POLAND. For a list of the tasks he performed, see Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Poland/Archive 3#Future of WikiProject Poland - assistants needed. He carried out these duties without asking for any special recognition; his only "reward" was the satisfaction of improving the encyclopedia.

Pursuant to the motion enacted May 5, Piotrus was allowed to "raise issues and discuss improvements to articles otherwise under the ban" at WT:POLAND. I have found his assistance at that page to be invaluable. (Please see WT:POLAND#Piotrus' to do list #1 for examples of what's been involved.) I and a few others have tried to keep up with Piotrus' suggestions, but this represents but a fraction of what should be done for the WikiProject; it is also a very inefficient way of getting things done.

As one example of his noncontroversial editing this year, Piotrus has used his class at the University of Pittsburgh to improve the encyclopedia and try to bring several articles to GA status. (Please see Wikipedia:School and university projects/User:Piotrus/Summer 2010 for details.) He has also become involved to a greater extent with WP:SOCIOLOGY. Since coming back to Wikipedia, he has had two (non-EE) articles promoted to GA and written 15 DYKs.

I believe Piotrus has learned from his mistakes in the EEML case and should be allowed once again to edit in the subject area of Eastern Europe.

Statement by Skäpperöd

Constructive edits to sociology topics, where Piotrus has some expertise, must not be used as a basis for granting Piotrus access to EE topics again, where he used the same expertise in a malicious way for years:

• the 2006 RfC on Piotrus already contained evidence for canvassing and agitation in favour of his group and against his group's targets.
• the 2007 Piotrus Arbcom has acknowledged the battlefield but tried an amnesty solution. This approach has failed and was replaced by the discretionary sanctions of the subsequent Digwuren Arbcom.
• the 2008 Piotrus2 Arbcom (later renamed EED) acknowledged that off-wiki coordination by Piotrus' group is "almost certain", but refrained from passing a respective remedy because it lacked "definitive proof"
• the 2009 EEML Arbcom was equipped with that definitive proof, identified Piotrus as a "ringleader" guilty of cover-up actions, abuse of administrator tools, a "variety of disruptive activities coordinated on the mailing list, including 'tag team' edit-warring (...), abuse of dispute resolution processes (...), proxying for a blocked user (...) and encouraging and advising list members to circumvent Wikipedia policies", and canvassing
• in Nov 2009, a month before the case's closure, Piotrus participated in the Tylman votestacking
• in Dec 2009 Piotrus was identified by Radeksz as still coordinating off-wiki (the months thereafter, he served his block)

There are few editors with a similar record of disruption, which has already caused a huge level of stress and waste of time (add up the kB of the above linked cases for a start). What makes Piotrus' case quite extraordinary is his long-term successful deception, including impertinences such as:

• Piotrus' proposed FoF in the Piotrus2 Arbcom, reading "There is no group (WP:CABAL, WP:TAGTEAM) of Polish editor acting together violating policies and damaging this project. Piotrus is not a leader of such a (nonexistent) group."
• Piotrus' reply to Irpen's offer for a fresh start: "I have not done the things...", "I can promise you I will not 'call in reverts' to create battlegrounds, I will not stack votes with otherwise uninterested meatpuppets, I will not seek to block content opponents..."

The "prolific Piotrus" and the "malicious Piotrus" are one and the same person, and the latter had long enough been free to deceive the project, including Arbcom, hiding behind the first. Skäpperöd (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Piotrus

I have asked Malik to post this request on my behalf, as a representative of WikiProject Poland and an editor familiar with my editing history (both past and present). I believe that Wikipedia is a project build on trust and cooperation among the users, and thus I am heartened that he has agreed to do this; his (and WP:POLAND's) support means a lot to me.

I have learned over the years that no matter how good one's intentions, it is all too easy to fall down a slippery slope. Having seen what happens when one descends this route, I plan on ensuring that errors of the past will not repeat themselves in the future.

It has been about a year since any complaint about my editing was raised (in the arbitration case I am asking to be amended). I have contributed, uncontroversially, to EE-related subjects for years before (including in the 4-month period that the case was ongoing). I have, over the years, till late December, contributed over ~20 FAs, ~20 GAs and ~300 DYKs, roughly ~90% of them in the Eastern European subjects). Even after the case ended, I was able to help out with addressing the BLP issues and then GAing Lech Wałęsa article. Throughout that time, I contributed uncontroversially to Polish Wikipedia, Polish and English Wikisource, and the Commons projects. I have written several GAs and over a dozen DYKs in the past few months on English Wikipedia as well.

I would like to return to my former levels of activity, in my areas of expertise (Eastern Europe), just like after a six months break I was able to resume clean up work for WP:POLAND. I have a nearly finished Poland-history-related Featured Article rusting in my sandbox on Polish Wikipedia. I would like to resume my work on creating the economic history of Poland article. I would like to resume GA work on Juliusz Słowacki. A sample list of further article content subjects I plan to work on is visible on my userpage (usually I go through most of my to-do boxes in few months; obviously they have been mostly frozen since last December). There are also many wikiproject gnomish tasks I cannot help out with (and which are not being carried out) (more "to do" not being done). I often spot vandalism on my 3k+ watchlist, but instead of reverting it I have to report it to AIV or arbitrators I see online, which often means it takes hours between I see vandalism and it is reverted. And being able to answer simple requests from help, including those from sitting Arbitrators, instead of directing them to WT:POLAND, would be nice, too.

On a final note, I'd like to echo Radeksz calls for all editors in Eastern Europe to assume good faith and work collaboratively. This is what this project is about. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Response to Skäpperöd (first and only, I don't intend to engage in discussion on those pages, per the rules here): I am impressed you managed to post your statement so swiftly, even before I managed to post mine. I will just repeat what others have said in response to your comments in other recent amendments: 1) do you have any diffs from this year to bring, instead of rehashing old history? 2) Can you explain how this amendment would damage (instead of helping) the project - i.e. focus on the future, not the past (again...)? And 3) please stop misrepresenting what happened: a) the 2006 (2006, seriously?) RfC had no evidence, but unfounded allegations, not supported by majority of editors b) the 2008 ArbCom finding you cite did not mention any side or editor, you insert "Piotrus' group" without any basis, badly misrepresenting that finding c) I was within my right to vote in that AfD, the vote was not coordinated d) the mailing group, as stated before (including, I am sure, in the evidence archive) was created in December 2008; please stop alleging to the contrary. Lastly: I respect the work you have done in relation to German-Polish history and related subjects, and I'd hope you could see beyond our differences, assume good faith and try to work together with me and others to create a better project, in the spirit of good-faithed cooperation. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 11:37, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Darwinek

I always perceived a global all-encompassing topic ban on Central and Eatern European topics as too harsh. One can edit or create articles about e.g. Poland or Belarus without any controversy. The current ban prohibits Piotrus to create e.g. even a tiny stub about, say, some Russian economist or Polish river. I think the current ban should be ammended and liberalized. I believe Piotrus will not misuse it and will be of great help to WikiProject Poland, where he was most active in the past. I am sure he learned from his past mistakes and would responsibly use his ability to edit the Central and East European articles again. - Darwinek (talk) 12:30, 27 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Lysy

If Piotrus served his so far de-facto probation well then it seems to prove that the sanctions did their job, are no longer needed, and in fact are harmful to the project content-wise. However, if the amendment is accepted and the ban is raised, I would suggest asking Piotrus for a parole, to help him remember that he should treat any Eastern-European issues in the same constructive manner as any other articles. Other than that, I'm totally for lifting the sanctions, as they seem to serve no purpose now. As for the Skäpperöd's comments, none of them seems relevant to the recent half a year period that is discussed here as the base for the amendment request. --Lysy^talk 08:30, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Deacon of Pndpetzim

Essentially Piotrus' argument is: I might realise some of the things that happened in the past are unfortunate, but listen guys, I've been banned from this area for a few months and in those few months I haven't done anything bad in the area. So, obviously the ban is pointless and if you make me serve the ban I was originally given, you are being crueler than you need to be and depriving the 'Pedia of great content.

It is not news that Piotrus did a lot of writing for Polish and eastern European history articles. We knew that when we imposed the ban. The problem we had with Piotrus (or his side-kick Radek for that matter) is not this, nor that we discovered that all the allegations of co-ordinated bullying, edit-warring, wikilawyering and so on which had been leveled at him for years and ignored turned out to be true, but rather that that wasn't even the half of it.

You discovered that email archive, and you acted ... you sent out a message. You can of course be sure that they learned not to be so stupid as to have a email list that size and to record it so zealously. But you actually think they'll stop this kind of thing? Why would they? It was great for them ... and worked well, only trouble was that it leaked. So now that he has been caught and topic-banned, it is to be believed that he therefore saw the moral error of his ways? ;) Yeah, of course. He must have.

But sure, he might have ... he just might have. It is no matter, you guys don't know either way. And as appealing to your conscience as it might be to "give the benefit of the doubt", you have a responsibility to treat the possibility of gross misconduct as seriously as history suggests you should.

Moreover, you have already passed judgment on these offenses, offenses of the highest gravity. Is upholding previous ArbCom sanctions made in the aftermath of a long investigation against a background of rare community outrage really something that needs to trouble us as much as is being suggested? If the previous rulings were just a political show to quell the outrage which existed at the time, then sure you would revisit it after a few months. If you take it seriously otherwise, then overturning or significantly lightening the bans is very brave message to send to future perpetrators of such activity or to those contemplating such activity.

Finally, Piotrus has expertise in sociology and economics, and it is good that he can focus his attention there. It is good that he can focus his efforts there rather than in areas where he has a strong bias and a history of using wiki-gansterism and co-ordinated edit-warring in pursuit of ideological goals, where he has previously conspired to and succeeded by such methods in undermining and circumventing natural wikipedia safeguards like WP:NPOV, WP:BRD, WP:EW and so on. It is however very important for Piotrus to learn ... and for others to learn ... that once you do certain things, Wikipedia will come down on you and you won't get out of it just by waiting a few months and convincing a friend in good standing to make a case for you. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 01:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Charles Matthews

My experience as a past ArbCom member is that Piotrus is rather good at the wheedling tone (which he can employ on behalf of allies, however egregious their shortcomings). As editors, we have met on the site infrequently, but when we did it was shortly after the close of the second Eastern Europe case. My impression was that Piotrus had learned nothing: plain advocacy of a Polish-centred POV, warnings against conspiratorial Lithuanians, and so on. I think the ArbCom should apply here a thought from the old book of remedies, namely that sanctions which create a good editor out of a troublesome one are advantageous to the site. I would oppose varying them until there was evidence of a more profound change of heart. This seems a routine appeal based on the passage of time. Charles Matthews (talk) 08:38, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kotniski

As usual, I fully support relaxation of Piotrus' restrictions, which seem to serve no purpose except to deprive Wikipedia of the useful contributions of a very productive editor. Whatever he is supposed to have done wrong, I think it's pretty clear he isn't going to do it again now that all eyes are on him.--Kotniski (talk) 09:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Nihil novi

• The lifting of over-reaching sanctions seems to me the preferable course. Everyone commits transgressions, and these should be monitored for. But one no longer imposes long-term banishments or capital punishment for the hundreds of crimes and misdemeanors for which such drastic sanctions were applied as recently as a couple of centuries ago. Nihil novi (talk) 12:00, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Igny

My statement seems superfluous by now, but after looking over recent history of Piotrus contributions, and knowing quite well the positive influence Piotrus had on all the usual hotheads in EE disputes, I fully support lifting the sanctions. (Igny (talk) 23:29, 30 June 2010 (UTC))[reply]

Statement by Jan eissfeldt

i contributed to the amendment-request in april by raising the point of his university cooperation projects. therefore, i have the feeling that i have the duty to report the review results of his spring-project (may-june):

as long as i can see now, it worked without guideline problems or conflicts and the participants improved social- and political science related articles like periphery countries and great divergence. his project reached the well-established standards in the content- as well as the perspective of civilized behavior, best regards --Jan eissfeldt (talk) 15:20, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Visor

I fully support lifting these sanctions — his works measured by new articles, high quality articles (FAs/GAs), working around community and overall contribution are really worthy for WP. He will be able to improve many of EE- and Poland-related articles. Piotrus' works will be examined very deeply and all negative aspects will be considered quickly. Visor (talk) 07:50, 3 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Heimstern

I could probably sum it up this way: Listen to Deacon. These sanctions need to be strong and maybe even harsh because the case in question was not some isolated case; it was the latest in a string of EE-related cases that involved Piotrus (and loads of others) and it was, quite bluntly, hammer time. Lifting them now is not in the best interests of our EE-related articles or our editors who are editing these articles after actually leaving their POVs at the door. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 19:30, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Further discussion

Statements here may address all the amendments, but individual statements under each proposed amendment are preferred. If there is only one proposed amendment, then no statements should be added here.

Statement by yet another editor

Clerk notes

This section is for administrative notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Arbitrator views and discussion

• I have always thought that some of the remedies in the Eastern European mailing list case swept much too broadly, although my suggestions to this effect (see the proposed decision page in the case) were not agreeable to the other arbitrators. In this instance, I think some relief from the sanction is appropriate at this stage, but I am not sure whether the better course is to lift it altogether (and then closely monitor developments!) or to more narrowly tailor it to the specific areas of conflict. I would appreciate some input on this issue. Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:42, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Recused on EEML.  Roger Davies ^talk 12:44, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• My thoughts at this point are not to lift the sanctions in this case at this point, as I am concerned about some things. Possibly another month or two.. SirFozzie (talk) 12:27, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Too soon after the last amendment. I would want to give it more time to see how the previous amendment is working out in practice. I would suggest three months between successive amendments, independent of whether other people are submitting amendments as well, and even if we haven't been consistent about this in the past. Having a slew of EEML-related amendments at around the same time sends the wrong signal, in my view. Each previous amendment should be accompanied by a note on the minimum period before a new amendment can be filed relating to that editor, otherwise we get overwhelmed. Carcharoth (talk) 12:57, 4 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• While I think I've been among the most sympathetic arbitrators to the early lifting of EEML amendments (I just moved my third such motion in the request above, and also moved the two earlier motions narrowing the topic bans), I'm not comfortable doing so here. We're dealing with a long history of problematic behaviour in this case, and also the behaviour of someone who, as a then-administrator, should have known better. I take particular note of the comments of Deacon and Charles Matthews, which I find persuasive. I do not agree with Carch's comments that this amendment request should be rejected purely because a different amendment was recently accepted. Steve Smith (talk) 15:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Recused on EEML. Shell ^babelfish 19:53, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Opposed premature. and per steve. — Rlevse • Talk • 00:33, 13 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Concur with my colleagues who feel this is premature, particularly Steve Smith. Risker (talk) 19:38, 14 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
• Recused. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 03:10, 15 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]