Discussion

I hate to do this, but IMHO, it is time that Dicklyon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was banned from moving pages. His moves of railway related articles are often controversial and challenged, yet he continues to move pages without discussion.

Evidence of this can be seen at

• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways/Archive_37#Recent article moves removing capitalisation of 'line'
• talk:Woodhead line#Page move
• Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Foo Line or Foo line?

and elsewhere. The most recent I'm aware of was this move of the Harz Narrow Gauge Railway article which was reverted 3 hours later. That article has been at its current title since April 2009, when it was moved from the German title to its English equivalent in accordance with WP:UE.

Therefore, I propose the following editing restriction:-

Dicklyon is permanently banned from moving any page. He may request page moves through WP:RM, allowing for discussion and consensus to be reached. Mjroots (talk) 14:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dicklyon has been notified of this discussion. Mjroots (talk) 14:24, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support The MOS:CAPS (and MOS:everything else) army have driven enough editors who were far more productive than them away from Wikipedia already; we could probably do with them giving it a rest. Black Kite (talk) 14:57, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If I had any idea who or what you're referring to I would respond. This is ridiculous. Dicklyon (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support but it's not enough. The in-article changes are as much of a problem as the page moves. This needs to be broader.

This has particularly been a problem with automated search-and-replace changes, enforcing MOS changes onto the titles of cited books or external businesses. If MOS can be enforced automatically, then have a 'bot do it. If it can't be done so easily, then it needs care. Dicklyon just doesn't see this, he thinks all text strings must conform to some arbitrary MOS rule, no matter the context or consensus. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:16, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's not what I think. If you have a complaint about what I do, make it explicit, as did you before and I promptly apologized for my mistake and fixed it. Dicklyon (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't give a damn what you think. What you think is clear, and it's so far from what a significant number of other editors think that we are now here at ANI, discussing whether or not to formally prohibit you from continuing to edit in the way that you think. This is no longer about what you think any more, it's a matter for other editors to decide. You might try to influence us that such changes were right, or that you're no longer going to cause a problem with them, but it's now out of your hands as to whether you'll still be permitted to make them. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:30, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was pushing back on your assertion of what I think. I agree that what I think is not very relevant here, and can't be objectly discussed or evaluated, so why would you insert your opinion of what I think into this discussion? Dicklyon (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• And now you've found a new target, Talk:L1A1 self-loading rifle#Requested move 7 January 2017, to push this same agenda that a simplistic style guide always overrules all subjects, no matter what the context. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:38, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So now I'm not allowed to express an opinion and share book evidence in a requested move discussion? What happend to WP:BRD? Dicklyon (talk) 23:47, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Express away. But if you're trying to make a case that you can express judgement over renames rather than a blind compulsion to impose one rule, over all others, then it's not really helping you. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:08, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't see the problem here. At a glance, and as a person unacquainted with these matters, Dicklyon seems to want to bring capitalization of titles in line with Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters, which says that capitals should be reserved for proper names. That seems unobjectionable to me. It's of course possible that this (like other MOS issues) can give rise to heated disputes in individual cases, but neither the request nor the links provided appear immediately indicative of any serious conduct problems concerning Dicklyon, let alone problems warranting a ban.  Sandstein  15:20, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Dicklyon doesn't seem to understand what a "Proper Noun Phrase" is, which is why the Bittern Line article was moved to Bittern line, despite it being heavily marketed as the Bittern Line by the TOC, Broads Authority and Tourist Information Board. There are many other examples of such moves, most of which have been challenged. Mjroots (talk)
    • And in the ensuing RMs, virtually no one agrees that what you want to label a proper name/proper noun actually is one. People who have neither a background in linguistics nor in philosophy rarely get the nuances correct, and frequently think that anything often capitalized is a proper name, and they're simply incorrect on that. I've seen that very argument advanced multiple times in the very discussions under issue, often commingled with the additional fallacy that anything that governmental sources capitalize must be a proper name, even though we know that official-ese wantonly capitalizes everything it can as form of emphasis.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:54, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support indef Dicklyon was unblocked under the standard offer with the condition that he did not return to carrying out controversial page moves. He has previously been prohibited from carrying out page moves. WP:ROPE... Keri (talk) 15:37, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  No, he was not prohibited from carrying out page moves, that restriction was from "large scale, potentially controversial actions such as mass page moves" (my emphasis). Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:50, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  "...such as..." (my emphasis.) Keri (talk) 16:00, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  (EC) Agree here, the restriction was on controversial actions, not on mass page moves, that was just an example of a controversial action. Normally just moving a page to a hyphen-dehyphen would not be controversial, however Dicklyon knows perfectly well it is, has been told before not to do it without discussion, and I think this is the second report in as many weeks about Narrow Gauge hypenation? Only in death does duty end (talk) 16:06, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  @Keri: - that is not the proposal on the table. Let's discuss the page move ban, and if enacted see how things go from there. Should it prove necessary, a CBAN discussion can be raised at some point in the future. I hope it won't come to that. Mjroots (talk) 16:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  I hear you, but the page move ban is effectively already in place. Dicklyon has ploughed on with controversial page moves regardless (see eg the comment below from Bradv). Keri (talk) 16:26, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Yes, but he was *not* "prohibited from carrying out page moves". Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:42, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  If you are referring - which your quote suggests - to the 3rd link in my comment, it is quite explicit: "I'm imposing a six-month ban on page moves except through WP:RM" (my emphasis) Keri (talk) 16:46, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  @Keri: You are correct, and I apologise for my mistake. In April 2015 he was indeed prohibited from page moves for a period of six months. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:21, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I went to Dicklyon's talk page to complain about an inappropriate page move, and saw this thread. Bradv 16:03, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose: RM is the prescribed process for determining page names (a content dispute), and these moves mostly go the direction DickLyon proposes. Many of them are edge cases or grey areas, and the reason we have RM process, instead of people moving pages at whim and moving them back, is to have consensus discussions about what the page should be named, based on what policies, guidelines and evidence, and for a body of such discussions over time to make these areas less grey and less edgy, so debate about them ceases. The fact that some of the move proposals don't succeed doesn't somehow mean that DickLyon is being disruptive, it means that DickLyon is not infallible and that the process is working. What is really going on here is that WP is beset by a large number of overcapitalizers (especially for WP:SSF reasons) and people who don't understand the difference between hyphens and dashes. They are naturally, as an aggregate class, going to be irritated by someone who focuses on cleanup of excessive capitalization (against WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS) and incorrect use of horizontal line glyphs (under MOS:DASH), and who like to gang up on him at RM and, periodically, ANI – frequently making uncivil accusations about him in the process. Their own behavior needs to be examined. ANI is not a venue for circumventing RM or any other WP:PROCESS; we have those for a reason. The particular locus of this new dispute seems to be rail transit fans, who are a "particular" lot. But they cannot agree even amongst themselves; our transit and transport articles display a wide variety of conflicting styles, even with regard to the same transit system (e.g. Van Ness Station versus Fruitvale station in the San Francisco Bay Area), and the train fans, highway cataloguers, and other topical camps in the general category frequently contradict each other. With very few exceptions, these editors have no linguistic, professional copyediting, or other background in language and style matters, nor in philosophy (where the nature of what proper names really are is also debated at length), and incorrectly insist that everything they ever see capitalized for any reason in any kind of writing (e.g. signage) is a proper name, and/or that anything with any kind of label, designation, or categorization has a proper name, or both, and they are flat out incorrect. These RM discussion need to happen, with sufficient input and in sufficient number that an actual consensus emerges. Or hold a site-wide RfC on the matter at WP:VPPOL. ANI is not the venue for settling content disputes, and this is entirely a content dispute. This type of content dispute (cf. 2014 huge RfC about capitalization of common names of species, for example) can get heated, but most of the invective about it is hot air and it will dissipate once a consensus emerges one way or the other.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  17:41, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FTR, Van Ness and Fruitvale are stations on different systems. I would have thought you of all people would know that. EEng 17:50, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BART and Muni overlap through most of their downtown SF length, sharing stations (which are city property), and those of us who use them to commute do so as a unified system, with a unified pass, called Clipper. Which governmental body technically owns each station isn't relevant to the points I'm making. And I could have picked other examples, e.g. two Muni stations, or whatever. I just picked two I use every weekday.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC) [reply]

As a former BART consultant I can assure you BART and Muni are hardly a unified system, though it's good to know that the elusive goal of getting patrons to feel that way has been achieved, at least in your case. Your example amused me because I had a front-row seat for this precise station/Station interagency debate in the 90s. The four downtown SF stations are either joint BART/Muni property, or BART property partly leased to Muni -- can't remember which -- but certainly not "city" property. I'm only giving you a hard time because I know you have high standards so you'd want to be set straight. EEng 20:04, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough! Now I'm curious about those station/Station arguments, but that's for another page.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support WP:RM#CM is clear: "The discussion process is used for potentially controversial moves. The move is potentially controversial if any of the following apply:" when point three applies: "Someone could reasonably disagree with the move." Lugnuts ^{Precious bodily fluids} 18:28, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Dicklyon's explanation below, which, if an accurate reflection of his page moves, seems reasonable. Paul August ☎ 20:30, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I challenged Dickylon's move of the British narrow gauge slate railways article. He doesn't appear to be interested in following Wikipedia's conventions, or even his own conventions. He is only interested in imposing his own specific interpretations of grammatical rules, no matter the context or the rationales involved.

A few examples. He first claimed that "narrow gauge" should be converted to "narrow-gauge" because Google n-gram search (a notably unreliable mechanism, per Wikipedia's own article) showed that the hyphenated version was the more common. Then when I demonstrated that the common usage in British railway articles was unhypenated, he dismissed that evidence because it was from the specialist press, citing WP:SSF. Okay, so I demonstrated that the usage in the general British press was "narrow gauge" and he dismissed that because newspapers "don't count". He's never explained why newspapers don't count, even though WP:SSF explicitly says they do. All this is at Talk:British narrow gauge railways. He won't accept any evidence that contradicts his personally held beliefs, even when his own guidelines disagree with him. This makes it impossible to have a rational debate with Dickylon. The only rules he wants to follow exist in his mind.

Much worse though, he started to move articles that contained the word "narrow gauge" to their hyphenated version. I politely asked him to revert he changes while the debate continued on Talk:British narrow gauge railways. My understanding is he should at least have waited for the debate to finish before imposing his own interpretation across Wikipedia. Instead he continued on his crusade, ignoring my objections and those of others. I asked him again to stop, pointing him to the debate he had already taken part in. Yet he continued moving pages.

Even when the debate on the talk page was completed and he had failed to generate consensus, he continued to move pages, including the very page under debate.

How is this okay? He is imposing his personal interpretation against consensus, and against guidelines. Far from following policies like [{WP:BRD]] he is riding roughshod over the spirit and letter of Wikipedia at every turn. It's hugely frustrating and a massive waste of time, energy and goodwill. Railfan23 (talk) 23:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Can you link where you say you challenged my move of the British narrow gauge slate railways article? I think you're mistaken there, along with much of the rest of what you say about me, like what I'm interested in (which is neither true nor relevant), or that I "first claimed that "narrow gauge" should be converted to "narrow-gauge" because Google n-gram search showed that the hyphenated version was the more common". I did not; the n-gram search was about evidence, not about a reason; if you see a place where I said something inappropriate, link it and let others see, too. And if these "narrow-gauge" moves are so bad, why have practically none of them been reverted? The narrow gauge slate railways this morning was the first, I think; and the other one this morning at Harz Narrow Gauge Railways, which I had not known about before this AN/I complaint, since I was sleeping. At the RM discussion, you were the only one opposed to the hyphen, with your silly Br/Am theory that I disproved; nobody backed you up on that pushback, because it made no sense. Bermicourt tried that later in a different context, but then resorted to a much more plausible rationale for the Harz, saying it's the official company name (even though the official company name is actually German and the article is about the lines, more than about the company, and even though it appears lowercase a lot in English-language books, but those are points I'll bring up if we do an RM later; for now, I've been reverted on that one, so next we discuss). So only two reverts out of all these horrible moves, and both while I slept this morning, is reason to ban me from page moving? Dicklyon (talk) 00:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First, apologies, I got the detail wrong. I objected to your mass move of articles and only to your proposed move of British narrow gauge slate railways here. Your first justification of the hyphenated version in Talk:British narrow gauge slate railways was this one at which you explicitly cite the Google n-gram search. You gave no other justification for why the hyphenated version should be preferred. You may have intended that to be "evidence", not a "reason" - but a reasonable reading of what you wrote, is that you are saying the n-gram search is the justification for your proposed hyphenation.

It was only [later that you said] WP:SSF was the justification for changing "narrow gauge" to "narrow-gauge". Though of course you only apply the very small bit of that guideline that agrees with your personal opinion, and continue to ignore the rest. If you won't stand consistently behind the guideline, don't quote it at all.

I did not revert your page moves because I believe it is better to discuss instead of imposing my opinion. I asked you, twice, on your talk page to revert the moves. I thought that was more productive than just reverting you, and also believed I clearly expressed my wish for them to be reverted. Will you really only respect the outcome of a discussion if you have been reverted first? My objection was just as clear as reverting would have been, while being less disruptive and more respectful. You just continued on making changes over objections, while the debate was still running. Railfan23 (talk) 01:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This venting is off-base and misplaced. See MOS:HYPHEN: narrow-gauge is hyphenated when used as an adjective because compound adjectives are hyphenated (in WP's formal/academic register, anyway, even if some news-style publishers are dropping the practice; WP is not written in news style). As I said above, that's is just an attempt to re-litigate a content dispute in the wrong forum. Your disagreement (a factually incorrect one and WP:POLICY-contradicting one) against Dick_lyon is not an ANI matter, but an RM one. The move in question should certainly not be controverted by a reasonable person, since it comports with both our style guide and other major style guides and grammatical works; the objection is not reasonable. Next, you're welcome to use WP:RM#CM to contest an undiscussed move and open a full RM on it. That's the standardized process for this; ANI is not it. I have to wonder, when this is not done and people open bogus ANIs instead, if its because they suspect that a full RM will (as is typically the case) agree with the move that DL made. PS: I note that some of the "examples" of "disruptive moves" mentioned here were in fact already upheld by RMs; so people are trying to punish DL for successfully demonstrating consensus via the prescribed processes. That strikes me as WP:WIKILAWYERING and WP:SYSTEMGAMING.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry if this is the wrong forum, but I did not bring this here, and it is appropriate for me to respond to Dicklyon's queries. Please don't imply otherwise.

You assert that no reasonable person could revert Dicklyon's moves. It is clearly not the case that all style guides agree with you, nor that the general usage agrees. WP:NOT#NEWS applies to content not style, so isn't relevant. MOS:HYPHEN includes suggestions on hyphenation, not incontrovertible rules. Your own guideline WP:SSF says "Wikipedia and its Manual of Style, article titles policy, and related guidance draw primarily upon reliable general-purpose, broad-scope sources for editing guidelines. These sources include the best-accepted style guides for formal writing – like the current editions of The Chicago Manual of Style ... as well as observation of what is most commonly done in reliable general-audience publications like newspapers and non-specialized magazines and websites". So this assertion that newspaper usage doesn't count is frightfully convenient, but not actually correct.

If there was an indisputable hyphenation rule, then Dicklyon's approach might be sound. But there isn't, and simply asserting that there is doesn't make it so. Given there are reasonable grounds to debate this, we should seek consensus instead of imposing one particular interpretation, especially while the debate is still going on. The real issue is not the merit of a hyphenation rule, but how Dicklyon interacts with other editors. Ignoring requests and on-going debates, constantly changing the goalposts, refusing to debate substantive arguments, ignoring the parts of rules that contradict his position while rigorously enforcing other parts. These are not in the spirit of Wikipedia and should be discussed. Railfan23 (talk) 06:00, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody is suggesting that there's an indisputable hyphenation rule. All guides talk about having to make choices. But generally, the choice is not that hard, as in this case, and your dispute of it was based on a bogus Br/Am claim, and later on a claim that the hyphen slows the reader down. It became clear that you don't understand hyphens. Nobody else supported you on either of those bogus theories, nor objected on any other basis, until Bermicourt much later and independently came up with the same bogus Br/Am theory (where is this coming from?). Go check some style and grammar books, then we can discuss more. Dicklyon (talk) 06:05, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Railfan23: Read what you cite. Direct quote from WP:NOT#NEWS: "Wikipedia is also not written in news style." That invalidates your entire line of reasoning, that you can rely on news style against MoS. And, yes, DL is correct that your attempt to make this out to be some kind of WP:ENGVAR matter was also faulty.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:56, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support The Manual of Style isn't something to blindly obey, it's a guideline. Using it as an excuse to unilaterally push through page moves that don't have any consensus, and refusing to accept that you may be wrong even when the specific things you've done wrong are pointed out to you, is evidence enough that this editor does not have (or does not use) the expertise required to perform page moves. Exemplo347 (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See the many relevant RMs; I'm generally careful to stay with consensus when making moves. Dicklyon (talk) 00:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support Mainly because I was already watching the discussion Railfan talks about above, and its clear Dicklyon has no real interest in evidence that doesnt support his preferred version. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:32, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Come on, Only, there's no policy about what things I need to have a real interest in. If I did something wrong, say what; or at least say what evidence you think I've done the crime of not being interested in. Dicklyon (talk) 00:35, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the term is 'moving the goalposts'. Only in death does duty end (talk) 00:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose—Largely per Sandstein, above. This is an abuse of the ANI forum by partisans: very sad to see. Mjroots, you write: "Dicklyon doesn't seem to understand what a 'Proper Noun Phrase' is" (I presume you didn't mean to capitalise it)—tell us, what exactly does it mean, and how is it different from a proper name? Tony (talk) 00:38, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. Dicklyon may occasionally come across as overly pedantic but he is a constructive editor following our policies and guidelines and this is a gross overreaction to a disagreement over whether those policies and guidelines should be followed (on which Dicklyon is, as usual, on the correct side). —David Eppstein (talk) 00:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support. After taking the standard offer, users really need to be on their best behavour from that point on. Yet barely a year later, here we are. I agree with Black Kite's impressions regarding the negative effect of the overly-pedantic MOS editors. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 00:48, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Black Kite had no actual complaint about me. But you, like him, think I should be banned for what some unspecified other group of editors has done in the past? Gee, thanks. Dicklyon (talk) 01:31, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Andrew Lenahan, you've made an overtly political statement. I do believe that this forum should minimise political content, just as it should try to distance itself from the personal. In my view, this is a problem with the whole thread. Dicklyon might simply be reminded of the need for care and consultation, and this matter should be thrown out so we can get on with more important things. Tony (talk) 02:33, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Feel free to disagree if you wish, but I have as much right to speak as you do. In fact, if anything the general obnoxiousness and failure to get the point by Dicklyon and his cohorts in this very discussion has further convinced me that this is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with. I stand firmly behind every single word. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:05, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let me see if I have this right.
1. Anyone supporting Dicklyon is a "cohort" and their opinions can therefore be dismissed (however, the reverse is not true).
2. Your opposition's failure to concede is further proof that they are wrong and that "this is a serious problem that needs to be dealt with".
That is some of the most remarkable reasoning I've seen in awhile, even in MoS wars. Stand behind it all you like. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

All he did was repeat Black Kite's accusation (or "impressions") of unspecified past transgressions by unspecified editors, as "the negative effect of the overly-pedantic MOS editors". Nothing to refute, nothing to stand behind. I agree it's remarkable, the extent to which he wants to say nothing. We can get the point that he is somehow frustrated about wikignomes and the MOS. It happens. And Meryl Streep is way over-rated. Dicklyon (talk) 01:21, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There must be a term for framing a debate in a way that makes it impossible to lose and therefore not a true debate. This is not the first time I've encountered that tactic; not too long ago a 50,000-edit editor stated that the best way to demonstrate my good faith was to agree with his viewpoint. It was bulletproof! Anybody know the term for that? ―Mandruss ☎ 06:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Rhetorically brilliant but intellectually dishonest?" Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The claim that Dicklyon is doing mass page moves has no credible evidence. It appears he's prohibited from taking controversial actions, which is an absurd restriction, to too vague to be taken seriously. Under the circumstances, it might be best if he refrained from making controversial moves without an RfC or RM request, but making it a restriction is unjustified. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:35, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  How are we defining "mass"? Dicklyon move log Keri (talk) 10:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  That's a cool tool I wasn't aware of; thanks for showing us. It shows 250 article moves (plus the corresponding talk pages) since Dec. 4, or about 7.5 per day, somewhat lower than my guess of average 10 per day over the last year. Dicklyon (talk) 23:19, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per SMcCandlish, Sandstein, David Eppstein, Tony1, et al. I see the target being calmly responsive to criticism, in the face of comments like "I don't give a damn what you think" from a 10-year editor. Such invective is never appropriate, I have seen it before from that side of this longstanding dispute, and it tells me a lot about the situation without spending days studying its history. I have enough exposure to Dicklyon's editing to know that he cares at least as much about process as many of his attackers here. Has the appearance of an ideological witch hunt.
  Look, it is not Dicklyon's fault that the community has failed to reach a clear consensus on the underlying issue; i.e., the role of MoS at en-wiki. He is doing what he feels is right in the absence of clear and unambiguous guidance, and we should not be scapegoating him for our own failure. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:12, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose – Dicklyon is not a disruptive editor and cares deeply about the integrity of the encyclopedia. AN/I is the wrong venue for this MOS debate. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 08:43, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not a disruptive editor? I'll just leave this here. Exemplo347 (talk) 17:09, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for linking that discussion. I'm still hoping to hear someone explain what those editors are smoking; no implication that's it's illegal, but certainly seems mind-bending. Dicklyon (talk) 22:18, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The simple fact is, that was your response when it was pointed out to you that something was a proper noun, and should therefore not be arbitrarily given lower case letters. It's an uncivil response because you're not willing to accept that you may be wrong. If you're not willing to defer to the opinions of people from a relevant Wikiproject, and instead you're slavishly (and in this case incorrectly) following the guidelines in the Manual of Style, then it calls into question that long list of page moves. Is anyone going to volunteer to check through every single one and make sure that a lack of core knowledge hasn't pushed through moves that have over-ridden the opinions of people who are better versed in the subject matter? Exemplo347 (talk) 23:23, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The point of my jest was that the linked web page there did not support the opinion that it was cited in support of. Opinions are fine, as far as they go, and I'm sure most of us have some; but decisions based on consideration of evidence are more useful in such discussions, which is why I was poking fun there. If I'm wrong, please do show me. Anyway, this RM discussion is pretty far off topic here. Dicklyon (talk) 23:44, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Seemed good-natured ribbing to me, and the point Dicklyon raised was correct. The "source" chosen does not in any way indicate that the phrase is a proper name.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Question: What percentage of Dicklyon's page moves turn out to be overturned? As far as I can tell only a very small percentage. If so then preventing him from doing moves would be a significant loss for the encyclopedia. Paul August ☎ 18:53, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's an interesting question. I estimate about 1% usually, but there have been a few clusters that might push that up a bit, such as the group of 7 Japanese railway lines that I downcased on 10 Dec. that all got reverted; leaving that alone until I get around to discussion. And the sneak-attack at Talk:2016 NFL Draft#Requested move 30 April 2016, a single-page RM at a new article, watched by very few and probably only be NFL fans, which was interpreted as overturning all the XXXX NFL draft article titles that had been stable since I had downcased them in 2014 (see why I did: [1], [2]). So maybe 2 or 3%. Or maybe I'm in denial and someone can show that it's higher than that. Dicklyon (talk) 22:15, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That percentage would need to be compared with the percentage for the average editor (or the average editor with x+ edits/page moves maybe). It could just be that a large number were left alone because none cares. Tigraan^{Click here to contact me} 17:27, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the average editor has anything to do with it. We simply want to know whether his moves are a net plus, or a net minus, for the project. And that no one "cares" about a move would seem to constitute reasonable prima facie evidence that it was OK. Paul August ☎ 19:02, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Strong oppose, per SMcCandlish, Sandstein, Arthur Rubin, Tony1, et al. I've had limited interaction with Dick, but I've no doubt whatsoever that he is here to improve the encyclopedia, and is a net-positive to the project. This is draconian. Joefromrandb (talk) 23:44, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's worse than draconian, which would be something like a lone "I am the law!" admin taking terribly harsh action against Lyon and anyone who agrees with him. What we have here is more like a cluster of villagers with torches and pitchforks trying to chase someone out of town and into the swamp because he talks different from them. (Fortunately, people along the road are objecting and stopping the mob.)  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yeah, my "witch hunt" was the wrong metaphor; the word I was looking for is "lynching". And that's about as counter to Wikipedia's core principles as one can get. Thankfully, it's looking like the mob has lost this one, so the principles still have some life in them. ―Mandruss ☎ 11:16, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • Why am I getting the impression that it's me vs Dicklyon here? I wasn't the only one who complained about his moving of articles over a period of several months. There were plenty of others. I think this discussion has now run for long enough, so it should be closed by an uninvolved admin. As I said elsewhere in this discussion, I did consider indeffing Dicklyon; but I thought it would be be better for all concerned to raise the issue here. Whatever happens now, I wish Dicklyon the best for the future and hope that he will continue to edit. Mjroots (talk) 19:46, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't know why you're getting that impression, especially immediately following mention of villagers, mob, lynching, etc. If Dicklyon or any of his so-called cohorts repeatedly fails to observe Wikipedia process, let us know. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Strong oppose I have read this whole page, including the below discussions. I am convinced that banning Dicklyon would be a miscarriage, and any sanction would be inappropriate. First, there is no evidence that Dicklyon has been disruptive either in the short term or the long term. In fact, the preponderance of evidence points to Dicklyon editing in accordance with guidelines and polices.

Second, it seems the complainant is overreacting by bringing this issue to ANI and by having considered a more draconian alternative (please see below) - and that the alternative was in any way reasonable. In light of this, I recommend this person take a wiki break due to WP:INVOLVED.

Third, assuming good faith, there is a small cluster of editors who are relying on sources that are specialist or ambiguous and therefore not sufficient for determining the correct letter case for the title and when it is used in the body of the article. It is clear from the discussions on this page, and the discussions that have been linked to, WP:NCCAPS, MOS:CAPS and WP:SSM, along with related guidelines, are the appropriate references for article title conventions on Wikipedia.

Articles are supposed to be consistent across Wikipedia, and not edited according to a mish mash of rules by various groups of people across Wikipedia. This is because we are striving to become a premier or the premier reference work as an encyclopedia - so that is why we follow these conventions (please see: WP:NCCAPS). Dicklyon edits in agreement with these principles and guidelines - so we shouldn't even be here, at this ANI.---Steve Quinn (talk) 06:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Black Kite, Keri, Lugnuts, Railfan, Exemplo347, Only in death, and Starblind. He was unblocked a year ago on the condition that he make no controversial page moves [3], and these moves are controversial and have been objected to. And they are extensive: [4] Adding hypens and en-dashes makes searching more difficult; people have objected more than once but he doesn't seem to be getting the message. WP:RM#CM says "[A] move is potentially controversial if ... [s]omeone could reasonably disagree with the move." He also aggressively pursued Nyttend across multiple forums about his close of the RM for Steamboat Bill, Jr.: [5], [6], [7]. It's time to just put this disruption to rest. Softlavender (talk) 10:35, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I already discuss below how I reacted to the few moves that were challenged; if you think there are others where my reaction was inappropriate, can you point them out? And on the use of dashes between person names, are you saying that's controversial now? I thought that was settled in 2011. None of these have been challenged, which is why I was working on that while waiting for this railroad challenge to resolve. Dicklyon (talk) 17:13, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The links provided by Softlavander do not demonstrate that Dicklyon "agressively pursued User:Nyttend across multiple forums" for that RM close or any other. A number of editors were involved in these discussions and Dicklyon happened to be only one of them. Nyttend seemed to lose sight of proper use of Admin tools and status and this needed to be discussed. Softlavender's claim has no basis in fact. There is nothing to indicate Soflavender's view of this matter is accurate.

Also, linking to Dicklyon's entire move log history appears to be an attempt to say all his page moves have been controversial. This is not the case. As has already been discussed, perhaps 1% to 3% have been challenged or reverted and discussion ensued if it was necessary. The only exception, as Dicklyon pointed out, are the Japanese Railway issues because the reverts in this project occurred recently, and he hasn't gotten around to it yet. ---Steve Quinn (talk) 03:16, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Here are the conditions of his unblock a year ago [8], and here are his thousands of unilateral page moves since his unblock [9]. The objections to his moves since his unblock are mentioned and alluded to in this thread and are the very reason the thread was opened (there are obviously many, they just don't all happen to be listed here because that's not necessary nor is everyone watching ANI), and contesting one type of move is an implicit objection to the whole family of that type of moves, so the individual "percent objected to" is a misleading statistic. He has obviously violated the conditions of his unblock, so he needs to go through RM for any further moves. That's not a burden, since RM moves can be grouped into families of the same type. Softlavender (talk) 05:38, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I continue to maintain that my moves are not controversial, based on the fact that so few of them are challenged, and those few that are challenged I either quickly made right or found a consensus in favor. If you want to point out counter-examples, please do. Otherwise, all you're accusing me of is doing a lot of work, which I have already stipulated to. Dicklyon (talk) 06:09, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Partial oppose and partial neutral. I personally believe that the project would be better off if the ban were imposed, largely for the reasons given here by individuals such as Softlavender and Calton, but because of recent disputes I don't want that wish to be considered for consensus. I'm therefore neutral on the proposal for the most part. Given the fact that all dispute over Dicklyon's pagemove activities appear to me to be mainspace-related, and given people's propensity to wikilawyer in general, I don't think it would be fair to impose the ban as written. If you ban him, ban him from moving pages in mainspace and Talk:space, whether they're moved within the same namespace, from one of those namespaces, or to one of those namespaces. Don't restrict him from moving pages that neither start nor end in those namespaces: as far as I know, we currently have no reason to restrict his ability to move drafts, project pages, userspace pages, etc. If the ban were limited to main and talk, I would be entirely neutral. Nyttend (talk) 23:48, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Very cute; translation: "I probably shouldn't say anything because of my recent anti-MOS rants, but I agree with Softlavender, who hasn't made it clear what her complaint is other than bugging an admin for his involved close, and with Calton, who has made no complaint at all". Not much I can say to that... As for the rest of your idea, I think everyone will know that it's a distinction without a difference. Dicklyon (talk) 00:09, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support per Calton. When you're so aggressive that you display hostility toward the neutral, when you've demonstrated that you won't brook opposition on this kind of question, and when you characterise disagreement as opposition to project standards instead of considering that there might be room for disagreement, the encyclopedia will benefit if you are prohibited from moving pages. I still maintain that we shouldn't restrict his ability to move pages other than mainspace or talkspace. Nyttend (talk) 00:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't you call Calton here to voice his complaint if you're going to reference it? Dicklyon (talk) 00:35, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And you can't really make "I personally believe that the project would be better off if the ban were imposed" neutral, no matter what word you put in front of it. Dicklyon (talk) 01:02, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• So that we can get more of a consensus of opinions based on the December 2015 unblock request, I'm going to ping all of the various participants in, and the closer of, that unblock request, who have not already commented here: [10]: Prodego, Mike V, Reaper Eternal, DoRD, Beyond My Ken, BusterD, Johnuniq, DGG, Graeme Bartlett, Jenks24, Xaosflux, Thryduulf, Begoon, NinjaRobotPirate, Brustopher, Worm That Turned, Ivanvector, BD2412, Salvidrim!, Epicgenius, Antidiskriminator, Jonathunder. The wording of the close was "User unblocked (with provision to avoid large scale, controversial actions) per consensus here." Softlavender (talk) 06:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• In response to the ping, I looked at this mess a while ago and decided that getting involved would be a mistake. Supporting the page moves would support the kind of activity that is very destructive in a collaborative community, while not supporting them would suggest that Wikipedia should not have extended battles over important issues such as hyphens and title case. My ideal would involve someone working out how peace and quiet could be achieved by indeffing the fewest number of good editors. Johnuniq (talk) 10:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• (responding to ping) Support ban from page moves because it is clear from the evidence presented here and in the linked discussions that (a) Dicklyon is interested in making everything conform to his opinion of what the manual of style suggests should be be the case rather than understanding (or apparently attempting to understand) the topic at hand or why people are objecting to the moves (objections may or may not be correct, but they must be addressed not dismissed without thought); and (b) they have breached the conditions of their unblock (for the record, I consider an average of more 1 or 2 requested moves per day over a month or to be engaging in mass moves because page moves are your focus, not the content of the articles being moved). If I thought myself an uninvolved administrator I would impose this ban as a discretionary sanction under WP:ARBATC. The principles of that arbitration case are also worth repeating here, as some seem to have forgotten them, "The English Wikipedia's Manual of Style (MoS) is a guideline, or a set of "best practices" supported by consensus. The MoS is not a collection of hard rules.", "Behavior that violates Wikipedia's policies, even if driven by good intentions, is still inappropriate. Editors acting in good faith may still be sanctioned when their actions are disruptive." (that this thread exists is reason enough to show that Dicklyon's behaviour is disruptive, that others are trying to characterise it as an interpersonal dispute actually supports this) and the first rememdy "[Editors] are reminded to avoid personalizing disputes concerning the Manual of Style [and] the article titles policy ('WP:TITLE')…". Thryduulf (talk) 13:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• (responding to ping) Support ban from page moves. Clearly, the expectations when unblocked have not been met. Jonathunder (talk) 14:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• NOTE: I don't think a lot of the Opposers have properly read the proposal. It reads: "Dicklyon is permanently banned from moving any page. He may request page moves through WP:RM, allowing for discussion and consensus to be reached." There is nothing draconian about this proposal, especially since it falls perfectly in line with the conditions of his unblock a year ago: [11]. -- Softlavender (talk) 13:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all sanctions (responding to ping) per Sandstein and SMcCandlish, and everyone else who has already cited their analyses as reason to oppose this proposal. I have not followed Dicklyon at all since the unblock request over a year ago, except for seeing him at a move review quite recently on a topic not related to this. I recall suggesting that he be banned from bold (undiscussed) page moves for six months; I'm unsure if that was formally imposed but he seems to have abided by it anyway. The discussions linked by the proposer appear to be examples of Dicklyon constructively commenting in a requested move discussion whether he initiated the discussion or not. If some of those discussions result from examples of Dicklyon boldly moving a page, it appears to have been done in response to consensus reached in a clearly related discussion, and at any rate he was not banned from doing so at the time. If consensus is reached for the proper way to treat a particular situation on one article, it's needlessly disruptive to expect to hold a separate 7-day discussion for every other article where that exact situation also arises. Or to put it a slightly different way, each individual rail article is not an opportunity to rehash the same tired old MOS debates. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:38, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all sanctions (responding to ping) per Sandstein. I also agree with SMCC "ANI is not the venue for settling content disputes, and this is entirely a content dispute." --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Antidiskriminator: This is not entirely a content dispute. Please read the evidence presented by several people here about ignoring of past consensuses, refusal to engage in meaningful discussion, and acting contrary to the conditions imposed when he was unblocked. You can disagree that these are problematic and/or that they rise to the level of sanctions if you wish to, but pretending they don't exist is not an acceptable way forwards. Thryduulf (talk) 17:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thryduulf, I think we should very much ignore your accusations of "ignoring of past consensuses" and "refusal to engage in meaningful discussion", since these are brand new allegations, not previously mentioned here by anyone. If you want to taken seriously, please withdraw or correct your comments, or provide links to what you're talking about, or say what accusation in this thread you meant to refer to. This is not a forum for you to just make up shit about me. Dicklyon (talk) 17:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Thryduulf: Several other editors directly refuted your position and "evidence presented by several people here", with comments such as::

• "The discussions linked by the proposer appear to be examples of Dicklyon constructively commenting in a requested move discussion whether he initiated the discussion or not."
• "Look, it is not Dicklyon's fault that the community has failed to reach a clear consensus on the underlying issue; i.e., the role of MoS at en-wiki. He is doing what he feels is right in the absence of clear and unambiguous guidance, and we should not be scapegoating him for our own failure."--Antidiskriminator (talk) 19:47, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is definitely just a content dispute. The obvious proof of this is that Dicklyon moves a lot of articles (generally a category at a time, a sane cleanup strategy) and gets no "controversy" about it except from a couple of WP:FACTIONs on handful of extremely narrow topics, and they oppose again and again and again tendentiously no matter how much RM precedent goes against them, until there are no articles left for them to argue about because the job is done. Virtually without exception, they're trying to impose an off-WP style from specialized sources onto a general-audience encyclopedia, and trying to rope off "their" topics from the applicability of site-wide style and naming-convention guidelines and the article titles policy (which, no, is not "just a guideline"). If there were a legitimate behavioral/process problem with Dicklyon, the animosity toward his moves would be much more common and widely distributed across numerous of topics, not coming solely from a few that are world-renowned for attracting excessive fan-geekery (e.g., guns and railways). This "specialized-style fallacy is characterized by the view that "normal rules of English don't apply to us, because our topic is magically special and has its own rules that everyone must follow even when writing in a completely different kind of publication from ours". The last time such an insular group of editors tried to push their special pleading in a community-wide and lengthy RfC, the community answered 40 to 15 against, all policy rationales against, the general-audience reliable sources against, even some specialist sources against, and almost all the supporters were from the same wikiproject.

When it comes to down-with-WP-guidelines advocacy, most of the exceptions to the specialized-style fallacy pattern are motivated instead by misguided and ill-informed nationalism (cf. MOS:LQ and MOS:JR disruption), which is arguably worse but identical in the "consensus keeps going against me, but I will never give up" behavior.

How many times do we have to deal with this, with the same consensus outcome, before such "I'm going to make it my mission on WP to try to ream big holes into the guidelines that don't suit my off-WP preferences" behavior is curtailed? Our guidelines exist as a set of game rules so the game can be played instead of everyone standing on the field arguing about how to play. Many of them are arbitrary, no one likes every single one of them, and none of them are liked by everyone, but everyone does agree to play by them or they need to get off the field. The actual disruption is that caused by tendentious resistance to compliance with WP's rules, on the basis of very narrow camps of off-WP expectations, be they specialist or nationalist. WP is not written specifically for American gun collectors, Australian ornithologists, British trainspotters, or Canadian cat breeders; the way that members of such affinity groups write amongst themselves is confusing and unhelpful to WP's readership at large. WP is an encyclopedia; it is not a special-interest blogging platform.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Responding to ping - Well, it took a while to read through this and the December 2015 unblock request, but on the totality of the information I've just read, I must support the proposal. If Dicklyon is correct that his changes truly represent community consensus, and are not simply a case of blindly following MOS (almost always a bad thing), then it would seem to be no big deal to require him to use the RM process to make the changes in capitalization he deems appropriate. My opinion is unfettered by any knowledge of, or preference for, whether "line" or "Line" is best, although I would imagine that it would depend on what the railway itself used. In any even, those discussions can take place at RM. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BMK, it would be much more disruptive to run all non-controversial moves through RM discussions. I'm perfectly happy to use that process on any single or multiple moves that are controversial; controversy is easily signalled by a revert, but very few of my moves are ever reverted, which seems to suggest that they are not controversial. As I and many other here have pointed out, they generally follow clear consensus, which would make multiple new RM discussions the disruptive way to go. Even in this discussion, nobody has been able to point out which moves they would consider to be controversial, other than the few I discuss below, which I believe were dealt with correctly to and to most people's satisfaction. So I remain unclear on what problem you are thinking you are addressing by asking me not do page moves. Dicklyon (talk) 19:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am unconvinced by your argument that being required to use normal processes can be "disruptive". At worst, you might have to wait for a consensus decision instead of getting the instant gratification of doing it yourself. That's not "disruption", although it may be an annoyance for you, but considering the commentary here, it seems as if it would serve the benefit of the community at large. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:19, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BMK, I do use normal processes, always, and have no objection to doing so. The reason an RM discussion is not the normal process for uncontroversial moves is that it involves time and work from a significant number of editors; doing this for routine uncontroversial moves would therefore be "disruptive" in that it would pollute the already-big RM workload with lots of extra noise. Instead, let's continue to use RMs for ones that are challenged, or reasonably look like they would be challenged (and very few of mind end up in this category; nobody has even attempted to show a bunch for which RM would have been more appropriate). Dicklyon (talk) 21:28, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't think that's what "disruption" is generally taken to mean, but in any case, you can minimize any problems by ganging together requests that all have a similar rationale, instead of filing a separate one for each article, can you not? Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, the multi-RM is less disruptive than a bunch of individual ones. That's why I did one at Talk:Chester–Manchester_line#Requested_move_2_November_2016. After the closer noted that "Furthermore, there appears to be a consensus to avoid capitalizing the word 'line'," was I to then do another one just like it? Or move on? Dicklyon (talk) 04:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the others were not of the form "Place A to Place B line", then yes, you were, since the closer was only referring to articles of that format. "Place A to Place B line" is a description, whereas "Name Line" could be either a description or a proper noun, depending on circumstances. Beyond My Ken (talk) 06:04, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BMK, thanks, that's as much as anyone has been able to say about which of my edits might be considered controversial. And it agrees with the ones discussed already that were challenged (Bittern Line and Wherry Lines that I reverted, Wirral line that the querrier decided to agree with me on, and the Woodhead line and Huddersfield line there were reverted and then later downcased by RM consensus); we also discussed Xxx Valley line a bit, and I think Xxx branch line was pretty well agreed to be descriptive. Beyond all these, I still had perhaps 10 or 20 moves of British named lines that I did in recent months, none of which were challenged. I don't think this is "mass" quantities, and it would have been a lot more productive for someone to challenge them if they had an issue than to bring me to AN/I as Mjroots did while he had open his odd proposal to capitalize Line everywhere. Thanks for your input, and do let me know if you see any that you'd like to take to RM. Dicklyon (talk) 06:30, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I disagree with you there. There are numerous ways to "challenge" your moves. One is to revert them one-by-one, opening separate discussion on multiple talk pages, which is pretyy inefficient and can lead to contradictory result, and another is to bring them to a noticeboard for collective consideration as a whole. I don't think you can blow off the changes that weren't reverted on that basis, since here they are, after all, being challenged. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're not saying that AN/I is an appropriate place to challenge moves, are you? If any of my moves are to be challenged, I would think doing so somewhere else would be appropriate, as was done with the few I mentioned; others related were discussed implicitly in Mjroots' proposal to upcase all lines – a proposal that got zero support, and did not lead to more downcasings being challenged than the handful that have been discussed; and that was months ago. So why is he bringing it here now? And why are you piling on? I still can't get anyone to say what the actual complaint is, other than that I work too much, and I can get that at home. Dicklyon (talk) 18:34, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

AN/I is a perfectly reasonable way to challenge multiple moves made withing a short period of time, yes, because questions of behavior come into play. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:21, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, challenge away then; which moves of mine do you find controversial, in what time period? Nobody else is willing to answer that oft-repeated question. Dicklyon (talk) 00:43, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stonewalling at other noticeboards is pretty easy but at ANI people are welcome to look at the overall picture and decide whether it would be desirable for the ongoing disruption to continue unchecked, or whether participants should be requested to back off. Who cares if all your page moves are golden, the point is they are causing disruption. It appears the page moves are to "fix" dashes and letter case in titles, and the question to be resolved at ANI concerns whether the fixes warrant the ensuing disruption. My humble opinion is that they do not. Johnuniq (talk) 05:20, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So your contention is that my edits may be all OK individually, yet disruptive in the aggregate? Gee, thanks, for your appreciation of my hard work. And please note that there have been exactly zero complaints involving a dash, so if you are introducing such a complaint, please be more explicit, lest someone get the wrong impression that any of my dash fixes have been controversial or challenged. I have discussed already the very few caps changes that were disputed, so if you see a way that any of that was disruptive, please say so. Dicklyon (talk) 05:44, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Objection to canvassing: Softlavender's mass invite of almost entirely people with an old bone to pick against Dicklyon was inappropriate. The previous discussion from which opponents have been harvested was't even related to the current matter but was about mass and controversial moves. The current discussion is about non-mass moves, use of normal RM process, and moves that are to comply with guidelines and thus are not controversial ("I don't like the guideline and won't stop fighting against compliance with it" isn't what "controversy" means in this context; "tendentious editing" is a better description). It is completely unreasonable for Dicklyon to have been instructed in the previous ANI to stop doing mass, controversial moves, yet now to be pilloried (by a mega-tagteam) for actually complying with that and sharply limiting his move-related activity. This ANI should just be closed as "no actoin", and should have been already many days ago.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  08:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, 15 out of 18 commenters supported Dicklyon's unblock [12], so it's not true that any of these had any bones to pick with him; the 3 opposes were based on the socking, not on personal disputes. Plus "large scale" does not mean "automated" or "semi-automated". Since his unblock 13 months ago, Dicklyon has done virtually nothing but page moves. -- often about a hundred a day, thousands per month, and tens thousands of page moves in those 13 months. Softlavender (talk) 08:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC); edited 05:11, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Exaggeration serves no useful purpose. My move log shows fewer than 100 moves since this began 9 days ago; 1000 takes us back to June. Please review my recent moves and see if there are any that you think should have been treated as potentially controversial, besides the few railway line caps of last quarter that Mjroots came here about. Why fan the flame of his content dispute into this much drama, even without any specific complaint, and fuel it with exaggerations that are essentially just lies? Dicklyon (talk) 16:30, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My count was via scrolling through your edit history (and Control+F'ing the word "move") since your unblock in December 2015. I didn't check your move log (did not recall how to do that or that move logs existed), and I see now that my count was inflated by the repetition created by Talk pages and the newly created pages resultant from the moves. The correct count (subtracting the concomitant talk pages), from the move log [13], is 2,500 moves in the 13 months since your unblock. I will amend my post. It is true that you have done very little except move pages since your unblock. Softlavender (talk) 05:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for counting; that 2500 is a bit below my self-reported estimate of nearly 3000. And it is certainly not true that I've done very little else, not that it matters here. Dicklyon (talk) 05:15, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And I take it from your response that you haven't yet found any that you would consider controversial. Please do keep looking. Dicklyon (talk) 05:18, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You have done very little else, as anyone can see via your contribution history (and using Control+F move if desired): [14]. And by the way, I'm not going to edit war over your insistence on misplacing your response to me in the incorrect chronology, but please be aware that WP:TPO allows other editors to correct the layout of discussions, and that new replies to existing posts which have already been replied to should be below the first reply, not on top of it, to preserve the correct chronology. -- Softlavender (talk) 05:42, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So you're not going to move it a fourth time? Did you notice that WP:TPO also says "normally you should stop if there is any objection"? Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm still asking whether you saw anything in there that you'd characterize as controversial. I guess not. Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are misquoting WP:TPO; what you quoted was regarding actually editing or removing comments, not merely correcting layout. Softlavender (talk) 06:10, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, got it. I'll take that as you giving up on trying to find any of my edits that you would consider "controversial". Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would have to agree that "large scale" does not necessarily mean "doing everything at the same time", but can reasonably mean "making a large number of changes within a relatively short period of time." Certainly, Dicklyon's actions seem to violate the spirit and purpose of the unblock. Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

SMcCandlish, please don't be silly. You've been here long enough to know that as long as all the editors who commented on a previous discussion are notified, regardless of their comment at the time, it is not considered WP:canvassing to get more input on a discussion by notifying all previous participants. I haven't actually counted (and don't intend to) but my impression is that the people who said they came here in response to Softlavender's pings are about equally divided between pros and cons. So, really, maybe you'd like to strike your comment? Beyond My Ken (talk) 09:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would not. It's extremely irregular to go dig up previous but only tangentially related disciplinary discussions and try to get everyone from them to come squabble at the new one. There's nothing constructive about it; it's just WP:DRAMA-mongering. If we did this normally at ANI, almost every discussion on this page would be a morass of mass-pings, and people with grudges they've been suddenly and pointlessly reminded of piling on with off-topic commentary about what happened in a previous ANI/AE/RFARB/whatever instead of the facts of the current one. Don't pick scabs, don't kick sleeping dogs, don't manufacture additional dispute in a venue meant for resolving it. The point of WP:CANVASS is to not draw lopsided-attention to a discussion; notifying "everyone" when the majority of the ping recipients were opponents last time is not neutral. The fact that it hasn't turned into a dog-pile just demonstrates that the present request has no merit.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:12, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry to have to point this out, but you're entirely wrong about this: notifying all editors involved in a previous discussion is quite regular, and happens all the time. WP:CANVASS even mentions it specifically as an appropriate notification:

Examples include: ... Editors who have participated in previous discussions on the same topic (or closely related topics) ... The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions—for example, if notices are sent to editors who previously supported deleting an article, then identical notices should be sent to those who supported keeping it. Do not send notices to too many users, and do not send messages to users who have asked not to receive thm.

Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded with a neutral title, clear in presentation, and brief—the user can always find out more by clicking on the link to the discussion.

Softlavender's pings met all these requirements. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose all sanctions per Sandstein and SMcCandlish, and everyone else who has already cited their analyses as reason to oppose this proposal. This is pretty much TLDNR but In have tried. I observe the tone of the arguments posed to be diametrically opposed - reasoned, logical, a-personal and objective and, in the support of the ban, the converse (all-be-it a broad-brush observation). Controversial is perhaps not well defined. Just because something is opposed, does not, ipso facto make it controversial.Cinderella157 (talk) 00:02, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, but it does make it disputed, and as far as WIkipedia is concerened that is the same thing. "Controversial" really only comes into play on BLPs. Beyond My Ken (talk) 00:21, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have no problem considering the opposed or disputed ones as controversial; but there are very few of those, and they've been appropriately responded to. It's the claim of "mass controversial" actions that has no backup. Dicklyon (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment. Wikipedia has never had any kind of human-resources management, and as a result we don't use our human capital well at all. We're volunteers, so we do what we think we want to do. In fact, certain activities can be highly addictive. A talented editor such as Dicklyon should not be spending his time fighting over capitals, commas and dashes, certainly not to the point where he's repeatedly blocked and threatened with topic bans. Something has gone wrong when that happens. Dick, it's making people unhappy, and I can't imagine that you're enjoying it much either. SarahSV ^(talk) 02:19, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your perspective. Dicklyon (talk) 02:27, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Response from Dicklyon

Quite a Saturday morning surprise here, after a long spell of routine work with relatively little pushback from editors of the affected pages. Yes, I move a lot of pages, largely for style and punctuation reasons. In the last 12 months I've probably moved nearly 3000 pages, that is, an average of nearly 10 per day, with bursts as high as 30 moves on a busy day. None of this is done "in mass" using tools; it's almost always done carefully, checking sources and history, though there have been exceptions where I made mistakes due to insufficient care.

The current complaint seems to be all about the railroads, where there was a cluster of British line articles where caps were widely applied to generic words, and compound "narrow gauge" when used as a modifier was lacking the hyphen that would help a reader parse it. I usually follow WP:BRD, doing a bold move, and discussing it if it gets reverted. But very few have been reverted.

Mistakes

Yes, I've made a few mistakes, like moving again after not noticing a revert in two cases that I'm aware of.

• Take a look at Talk:Woodhead line#Requested move 17 December 2016, where I confessed to that mistake and opened a discussion. The move passed, and generally reaffirmed the idea that "line" should be lowercase except in cases where sources support interpretation as a proper name, such as Midland Main Line and East Coast Main Line.
• On Bittern Line and Wherry Lines, I immediately apologized, self-reverted, and cleaned up all incoming links when Mjroots reverted one and gave good evidence that these are treated as proper names. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK Railways#Foo Line or Foo line?
• In a couple of cases I got interrupted or forgot what I was doing, and didn't finish checking replacements via search-and-replace, and left some very wrong styling in the middle of book titles that I didn't intend to touch, as Andy Dingley pointed out on my talk page. I apologized of course, and make no excuse for such occasional lapses of care, but it's not the usual thing or worth a complaint at AN/I.

Downcasing line

I started a big multi-RM back in November on this: Talk:Chester–Manchester line#Requested move 2 November 2016. Closer Bradv concluded that "there appears to be a consensus to avoid capitalizing the word 'line'. This consensus matches the original proposal, so we can move them all as proposed." This was after a no-consensus close at Talk:Settle–Carlisle line that approved the en dash between place names but left the line case undecided. In all cases, my opinions, and subsequent moves, were aligned with the consensus, and with the guidelines of our MOS.

Reviewing my notifications for reverts, I found one more move reverted in the last month, at Wirral line. The reverter notified me, we had a quick discussion, he withdrew his objection, and I moved it again. That's successful WP:BRD in action. Then Redrose64 move protected it for move warring, which seems kind of silly after a peace treaty where everyone is happy.

Walking a fine Line

In the November discussion that Mjroots links at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_UK_Railways/Archive_37#Recent_article_moves_removing_capitalisation_of_.27line.27, my "opponents" express opposing views: Rcsprinter123 says "we can't be looking at this on a case-by-case basis...", while Andy Dingley says "These need to be discussed and decided on a case by case basis." I'm generally somewhere in between. As Andy says, each one needs to researched and decided; but in the past it was done Rcsprinter123's or Mjroots's way, in which they were all made arbitrarily "consistent" by capitalizing. For most, sources don't support caps, so those are the ones I was moving. In almost all cases, the move I did was either not reverted or sustained after discussion, so I think that indicates that I've mostly researched things correctly. Where I haven't, I'm happy to be shown, and fix it. And any one that Andy thinks needs to be discussed, he can revert (but probably not in bulk as Nathan A RF and Rcsprinter123 did, which got them slapped around a bit there). Dicklyon (talk) 00:42, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Narrow gauge

One editor, Railfan23, told me that it's British to not bother with the hyphen when using "narrow gauge" as a modifier, as in Narrow-gauge railway. He didn't revert me. I showed him that he was wrong, that in books, the hyphen there is about equally more common in British English as in American English. Other editors supported that, both on my talk page and in an RM about something in which I said that if we going to move it, or not, we should fix the hyphen to help the reader parse it. Given the obvious support in sources and among editors, I went ahead and did a bunch of these, with almost no pushback. Another editor, Bermicourt, came later to my talk page with the same Br/Am theory, and I pointed him at the other discussion, and he agreed to disagree, ignoring the evidence.

A huge number of my edits (as opposed to moves) in this space were in articles that obviously never had the attention of anyone who understands typography or style, wikipedia's or otherwise. Tons of spaced hyphens needed to be fixed to unspaced or spaced dashes, or unspaced hyphens, depending on context. This took a lot of work. Similarly, the titles had been made by the same editors and never really looked at for style or otherwise in so many cases. I'll willing to be reverted and discuss when someone disagrees, but there were very few reverts or talk items in this area, and the ones there were were based on the made-up theory of Br/Am differences in hyphenation.

By the way, I'd love some feedback on 2 ft gauge railways in South Africa; my move to Two-foot-gauge railways in South Africa might not be ideal. I have generally avoided hyphenating a dimension with units onto "gauge", but starting the article title with a number seemed like a bad idea, too. There are more like this to be decided, so this would be a good place to start with constructive feedback. Maybe South African railways of 2 ft. gauge or South African railways of two-foot gauge? On the other hand, Two-foot gauge railways in South Africa would appear to be perfectly conventional, too, though the half-hyphenated form strikes me as wrong and unhelpful. Any style guides address such questions?

British narrow gauge slate railways

See Talk:British narrow gauge slate railways#Requested move 30 December 2016 where we talked about the hyphen extensively. The non-admin closer Bradv said "The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus to keep this where it is, as some of the railways listed are elsewhere in Britain, and it is felt that there isn't enough content to write separate similar articles for Cornwall, Scotland, and England. (non-admin closure)." This comment about British vs Welsh had no relationship to the other part of the discussion, which was not part of the proposal, to hyphen "narrow-gauge" in that context. Given the apparent consensus to do so, and given the closer's lack of any comment on that question (not to mention that this non-admin doesn't know the difference between no consensus and "consensus to keep this where it is"), I went ahead and did the less controversial hyphen move. This pissed him off and he reverted it, which is fine, then he came to my user page to threaten me about it, and now he's here. Was this reverted bold move really an actionable offense, or suitable for a non-admin to be threatening to have me blocked? Seems to me re-opening a more focused RM discussion there would be the right path now.

Dashing through the snow

Softlavender has added a complaint above: "Adding hypens and en-dashes makes searching more difficult; people have objected more than once but he doesn't seem to be getting the message." I don't know where this is coming from, and she won't say. I have received no objections to any of the hundred of dash fixes that I've done, that I can recall. They are uncontroversial. Or is she backing up Railfran23 on his problem with Narrow-gauge railway and such? Hard to tell; her answer just re-asserts that objections "are mentioned and alluded to in this thread and are the very reason the thread was opened". Hard to defend against this kind of guilt-by-assertion junk. Dicklyon (talk) 23:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Recent RM discussions I opened

I've opened a number of move discussions when things got controversial. Please review recent ones and see that I'm generally trying to follow WP:BRD, and acting quite sensibly.

• Talk:Huddersfield Line#Requested move 6 January 2017 – currently open; classic case of specialists wanting over-capitalization; so we talk. Closed in favor of downcasing as I had done before.
• Talk:Volcanic Explosivity Index#Requested move 4 January 2017 – currently open; similar deal. But this was discussing fixing an undiscussed move in 2016 of my case fix from 2014.
• Talk:Woodhead line#Requested move 17 December 2016 – closed in favor of my proposal to use lowercase, after I had been reverted.

Few of my British line moves got reverted, and the discussions (e.g. at Woodhead line) reaffirmed that we follow WP:NCCAPS and MOS:CAPS; so I kept at it. On 10 Dec. I also started moving Japanese lines when I noticed a similar cluster of over-capitalization there, but those 7 all got reverted, so I immediately stopped and left it alone; will start discussions there at some point, since sources support lowercase.

The complainer

Mjroots is the author of the ridiculous proposal at this edit to ignore one of our most longstanding guidelines about title capitalization, so should not be taken too seriously; he wrote there:

Proposals

1. That all railway line articles are housed at the title that has "... Line" in capital letters (Foo Line, Foo Branch Line, Foo Main Line etc).
2. That all such articles are moved protected at Admin level.

Mjroots has since withdrawn the proposal; nobody supported his call to cap all lines or to call for admin move protection. Dicklyon (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Carry on

Six days into this mudfest, I'm focusing on uncontroversial dash and comma fixes (avoiding railroads, hyphens, and caps while this is open); moved about 46 articles today, plus 3 technical requests, and editted perhaps 100. I hope that everyone can see that this level of "mass" moves is just a lot of work. And if anyone thinks that any part of it is controversial, I hope they'll just say so. So far, no objections to such moves (since the WP:JR thing settled about a year ago, and MOS:DASH way before then). Dicklyon (talk) 06:48, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And after all this pile-on, including the new bunch that Softlavender invited "So that we can get more of a consensus of opinions", still nobody has provided anything like a list of moves that they think were controversial. Still nothing but the few I discuss in this section, and perhaps a few more older ones; a 1% effect. If nobody can even point to what the complaint is about, why is it still open? Dicklyon (talk) 00:05, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Several great editors have been indeffed because they irritated other good editors too much and too often, with no commensurate benefit to the encyclopedia (I'm thinking of people who, among other things, did thousands of automated edits to impose their preferred wikitext style). I have not looked at the core issue in this report recently, but I recognize some of the names above and the mere fact that they are pissed off should be enough for a collaborative contributor to back off and let time pass, then use another method rather than trying to impose their strict reading of whatever guideline is being relied on as justification. Johnuniq (talk) 04:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RM is the prescribed method for potentially controversial page moves, though, and Dicklyon is following it. Are you alleging bad faith in his interpretation? If so, you'd better have strong evidence. Getting titles consistently using English correctly (per our own style guide and the major off-WP ones it is based on) with regard to capitalization, hyphenation, etc., is objectively a benefit to the encyclopedia. Your post seems to amount to "People have been indeffed for doing useless and destructive things in a disruptive, thousands-of-automated edits manner, so be warned! You, too, will be indeffed – for doing useful, non-destructive, non-disruptive things, slowly and manually, and following both WP's behavior and style rules, plus using process correctly – just because me and my handful of friends are not getting our way and want to have a tantrum about it, rather than go to WT:MOS or WT:AT and see if consensus will change like we're supposed to." Does not compute.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  14:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair, S, John is not among those whining that I should be sanctioned for my work. But I agree his warning is a strange one. Dicklyon (talk) 19:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Respond below; please don't insert comments inside my comments. Dicklyon (talk) 20:03, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My proposal is ridiculous? Maybe it is in Dicklyon's eyes. It it doesn't gain acceptance then I won't dwell on it. What I am trying to do it prevent further instances of arguing over page moves, both with that proposal and the one up for discussion here. Regulars here at ANI will appreciate that it is rare occurrence when I start a thread here. I try not to let it get so bad that such action is necessary. The impression I get from Dicklyon is that he is firmly in the WP:IDHT camp. So here we are with the page move ban under discussion. Mjroots (talk) 21:55, 7 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I do hear loud and clear that you do not like me changing "Line" to "line" in any article titles, and that you'd prefer all such to be capitalized in titles, whether proper name or not. I just think that proposal, being contrary to WP:NCCAPS, is way off base. And when it got no traction in discussion, you surprised me with an AN/I complaint, which seems equally extreme. As for arguing over page moves, that's what we do routinely at WP:RM; we can do more of it or less of it, but cutting it off by ignoring longstanding titling policy and guidelines seems like a non-starter, doesn't it? Dicklyon (talk) 00:31, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Mjroots proposal is nonsensical. The first part ("my topic is magically special and so must be immune to WP's style guidelines") is why we have WP:CONLEVEL policy, otherwise every wikiproject and other clump of editors would declare their pet topics exempt from every guideline and policy. The second part is why m:The Wrong Version was one of the community's first essays; it wisely mocks the idea that administrative power should be used to lock articles in some supposedly correct form.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  03:59, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is Mjroots an admin? It appears he prefers a BRP (bold–revert–protect) approach, per this admin action. Dicklyon (talk) 06:18, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I'm an admin, have been for 7 years. Perhaps you would have preferred that I indeffed you rather than starting this discussion? Believe me, I was close to doing it. As for the locking of the Harz Narrow Gauge Railways article at a title which it had been at since April 2009, if there is any admin who thinks that my action was heavy-handed, please feel free to remove the move protection from the article. Mjroots (talk) 08:17, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, Mjroots. IMHO, admins should stick to resolving behavior issues. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 08:39, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Checkingfax: in part, this is a behaviour issue. Contrary to what Mandruss has claimed above, it is not a personal dispute between myself and Dicklyon. There are many other editors who have challenged his page moves over a number of months. Mjroots (talk) 08:44, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mjroots: I appreciate the ping, as I would like to correct your mischaracterization of my words. I suspect you're referring my phrase "ideological witch hunt", and witch hunts are not personal disputes between two editors. I don't think I referred to you explicitly or otherwise. ―Mandruss ☎ 08:50, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mandruss: - I may have misinterpreted in the face of comments like "I don't give a damn what you think" from a 10-year editor as referring to myself. I don't think I've ever said that. I do give a damn about editors opinions. If I think they are wrong then I'll engage in reasoned argument without resorting to name-calling, incivility and the like - pretty sure I've managed that here. As I said above, there is a specific problem, and an attempt to find a solution to that problem, which we are discussing here. Mjroots (talk) 09:00, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mjroots: Referenced comment is on this page, in this complaint. Ctrl+F is your friend. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:18, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, seen and understood. Mjroots (talk) 09:24, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mjroots:, your user page notes that one of your hobbies is railways. I think that's awesome, and sorry we collided on some minor style issues in that content area. However, per WP:INVOLVED, probably it would be best if you would refrain from using your admin powers in such cases, like you did to no useful effect on the Harz article; you can call for neutral admin help as well as any other editor can. And to characterize a single revert as move warring is prejudicial; please don't do that. Dicklyon (talk) 22:29, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And by the way, the premise of your complain here has your involvement build in: "His moves of railway related articles are often controversial and challenged" and is factually incorrect, since only a few of my moves of railway related articles have been challenged. Dicklyon (talk) 22:32, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Three comments: Mjroots should probably not be crowing about how he was going to indef an editor whom ANI respondents are increasingly defending against Mjroots's less excessive move-ban idea; I don't think it's Dicklyon who was lucky Mjroots did not take such a misguided action, which would have been challenged and questioned even more strongly. I agree that Mjroots seems not exactly administratively neutral about the topic, either. When more and more respondents are telling Mjroots that this is a content dispute not a behavior matter, and evidence (e.g. Dicklyon's actual RM success rate, and low rate of reverted moves) disprove the allegation of disruptive behavior, it's time for Mjroots to just retract; there's clearly not going to be a consensus for sanctions anyway.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• No word in bold from me, but a word of caution: I think this discussion is at the wrong level. Yes, editors who are focused on the manual of style are often frustrating to deal with. Yes, they do all too frequently drive away people who're doing far more useful and productive work than they do. But I think it's important not to take out that frustration on Dicklyon personally. In my view the way to deal with capitalisation is to start a larger-scale discussion about it where we can vent all this obloquy and then get the WMF to come up with a software solution that accommodates the capitalisation preferences of the user on the client side without affecting the server side. (It'd be far more useful than the ill-thought-out rubbish they waste programmer time on at the moment.)—S Marshall T/C 23:57, 8 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Extended comment by ClemRutter

Strong comment As I have never sought to be an admin, and rarely if ever touched a railway article I do not usually comment on admin pages. I also have respect for editors real lives and try not to follow up on poor behaviour over Diwali, Hannukah, the 12 days before Epiphany etc. I recognise and appreciate the efforts of the team SMcCandlish/DickLyon in trying to enforce consistency- but despair that they cannot accept when they are wrong. I am enfuriated when superior knowlege of redundant arcane wiki-procedure is used to stifle debate. Talk:Woodhead line#Requested move 17 December 2016 is not closed. The judgement that 5 for and 5 against is consensus cannot stand. Please examine the debate, and see the tactics that were used to enforce downcasting on the name of a line. The title was following MOS:GEOUNITS, end of story. The line was closed after Beeching cuts so it no longer exists, and is now mainly called the Longdendale trail, or the Woodhead Route.

I note that here, the debate appears to have been terminated by an interjection from one of the parties forcing the wrong level of indentation. I was not pinged to inform me that this debate was taking place, finding out in general conversation at the London Wikimeetup. I still do not understand why a fellow admin overrode Redroses edit-warring protection, or why someone slapped an inappropriate frightening looking template on my talk page.User talk:ClemRutter#Just FYI Please view- I have left it untouched as an exhibit.

After the team terminated the debate on Talk:Woodhead line#Requested move 17 December 2016, I opened a new section Talk:Woodhead line#Procedure and what we have learned There are two ways forward, one is sitting in the newspaper archives at Stockport Central Library for several days, or we can refer back to MOS:GEOUNITS and look for precedent and implication. MOS:GEOUNITS (is part of CAPs policy) and I cited Panama Canal for an example of a linear geographical feature, then there is the Kiel Canal, Suez Canal and of course the big ditch itself the Manchester Ship Canal. All these exist have good sources to verify the ultimate word is capitalised. Very little is now being written about modern UK lines, but we did start an article on the Ordsall chord : it had to be capitalised as we got it wrong. All contemporary sources show that it needed to be upcapped Ordsall Chord does follow MOS:GEOUNITS validating the the policy and the providing us with the precedent we need. Even so, if consensus hasn't been reached then right or wrong we revert the spelling to the one used as the article passes from stub to start.

At the point when 'consensus' was redefined to mean what ever it needed to mean- I was fairly convinced that I was a pawn in an edit war, and tonight I fully expect to have my words redefined and some other arcane trivial regulation to be thrown at me.

Can we also include Glossop Line in the list of over-enthusiastic downcapping.

The High Peak and Hope Valley Community Rail Partnership.

The Glossop Line is part of the High Peak and Hope Valley Community Rail Partnership (HP&HVCRP). The CRP was reconstituted in 2008 from a Rural

Transport Partnership that had been in existence for over 10 years.

Source:/www.gov.uk/government/uploads

We will find downcased examples, but above we see the modern government casing for the totality of the line. Also if you made a site visit you will find colloquial usage for the short chord from Dinting Junction to Glossop is often downcased, to distinguish it from the chord from Dinting Junction to Hadfield. Yes both exist, and a local still often get it wrong. It is a gross waste of time, to have to explain over and over again why downcasing is an error.presu

This page is not designed to discuss the a feature of British English, but to decide how to persuade a pair of editors from imposing their strong POVs, against policy and consensus. I am not admin so I cannot take part in that discussion- but I would welcome a solution that encourages them to keep up their efforts on working to improve WP, but prevents them from mistakenly editing the title of any article that is written on a UK subject, or has a Use British English tag. Regretfully, --ClemRutter (talk) 02:13, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I fully support what you've said - many of the people who have commented here in support of DickLyon are currently attempting to prevent the capitalisation of "Self Loading Rifle" even though it's the proper name and the WP:COMMONNAME of the British Army's former main service rifle. It's purely based on a misunderstanding of military nomenclature, there's no bad faith involved, but the general unwillingness to listen to people who are more well informed on the subject matter is part of a pattern with DickLyon - and yes, I'm still annoyed about him saying "What are you smoking?" and then saying it was just a joke when called up on his incivility. Exemplo347 (talk) 08:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been involved at L1A1 self-loading rifle, but I have now looked at it. It's an open RM and Dicklyon is participating in the RM process as he is supposed to do. He has not moved that article. If the consensus goes against him, I have no doubt he will defer to it. If it goes against you, I expect the same from you. There is no Wikipedia policy or guideline that I'm aware of that requires editors to "listen to people who are more well informed on the subject matter". So Dicklyon is conforming to process and you are inventing your own rules of Wikipedia decision-making. I submit that any disruption there is yours and anybody's who supports that sort of reasoning. It seems to me that a large part of this conflict results from editors whose voice volume far exceeds their knowledge of how Wikipedia works. And some all too quick to be highly offended about innocuous comments like "What are you smoking?". It is all becoming very clear. ―Mandruss ☎ 09:08, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[Sorry this is long and detailed, but the mega-post it responds to covered a lot of ground.] @ClumRutter: You must not care much about the capitalization after all, since I just had to create that redirect to Longdendale Trail to fix your redlink. Anyway, If it's now "mainly called" that, then Woodhead line should be moved to that title, per WP:COMMONNAME policy, and the scope adjusted to focus on its modern use as other than a railway line, with the useless micro-stub of content at Longdendale Trail merged in. Why hasn't this been done? Could it because that would raise territorial hackles at a wikiproject that is unusually proprietary, and on a topic that is renowned for attracting obsessives' attention? Even if it's just a temporary oversight, aren't you just arguing heatedly but pointlessly about a moot matter and, worse, also helping push highly personalized drama-mongering about it at WP's kangaroo court, in a "case" explicitly intended to drive away another editor? (Note above that the admin who lodged this ANI said he did so in lieu of personally indefinitely blocking Dicklyon from WP entirely). So, pray tell, what is your justification for this, especially given that you decry style disputation as something that drives away editors? Is it okay to drive away editors as long as they're ones you personally find inconvenient?

"We will find downcased examples ... – That's the end of the matter right there, really. If RS are not consistent on the matter, do not use the Special Capitalization or other excessive stylization. This is a general rule found at MOS:CAPS, MOS:TM, and elsewhere, and the same basic principle can also be found in WP:COMMONNAME. You continued: "... but above we see the modern government casing" – So what? See WP:OFFICIALNAME. WP is not written in "Official UK Government Style". Governmental writing has a very strong tendency to capitalize virtually everything on which it focuses, even briefly (especially if there's anything governmental about that itself, e.g. a part of a transit system), and it does this explicitly as a form of emphasis, not because any linguists or any style manuals aside from the government's own would agree it made sense. First rule of MOS:CAPS: Do not capitalize as a form of emphasis.

Moving on, your belief that something is a proper noun does not make it one just because you keep repeating it in the face of evidence to contrary. Dicklyon (and I) have no trouble admitting when RMs do not go our way. We take that in stride and move on to other cleanup. Rather, it is insular camps like various transit-related projects who continue to fight article by article by article against the exact same types of moves even after RM precedent turns against them again and again. (See WP:TE.) When a proponent of one MOS segment (e.g. GEOUNITS at MOS:CAPS) is arguing against others who cite much more of MOS:CAPS (with support from MOS:TM and several others, including non-MoS guidelines like WP:NCCAPS), and that editor is then trying to make his opponents out to be "infuriating" and "despair"-inducing MoS obsessives, that person very badly needs to read WP:KETTLE and find something else to do here.

BTW, you are not interpreting GEOUNITS correctly, and I would know since I wrote most of it. Woodhead line is none of an: institution, organization, or other legal entity; nor city, county, country, or other political or geographical unit. It's a former strip of train track, that was the property of various entities of the first sort, and ran between and through entities of the latter sort. And this was already clearly explained, repeatedly, at the RM. So why are you playing WP:ICANTHEARYOU about it here?

The fact of the matter is that these routine MOS:CAPS cleanup moves are opposed by no one but tiny clusters of one-topic-focused editors who persist, sometimes for years, in trying to mimic styles they find in specialist publications or on "official" signage instead of writing in encyclopedic style for a broad audience. It is a style that minimizes capitalization (not just because MoS says so but because the off-WP mainstream style guides MoS is based on also do the same, thus mainstream, general-audience publications do so – a real-world, average-user expectation of how English works, across all dialects and formal registers). The misguided belief that wikiprojects can declare themselves exempt from site-wide guidelines and policies on a random-preference whim is where the MoS- and WP:AT-related disruption comes from in this and in a high percentage of other instances. It's time for that sort of "our topic is a unique snowflake, so no general rule can ever apply to it" special pleading to come to an end. It wastes a tremendous amount of editorial energy, for no good reason and with no good result. See also MOS:FAQ#SPECIALIZED.

No one would dare try this approach with any other guideline, and it needs to stop with this one. Can you imagine someone, with a straight face, trying to convince us that WP:FRINGE did not apply to feng shui because feng shui is just different and has its own standards? That WP:SAL applies to all lists except lists about cheese? That MOS:TM doesn't apply to heavy metal music because using all-caps, decorative fonts, and fake umlauts are "normal" in metal magazines? That WikiProject Anthropology's templates are immune to WP:TMP? Anyone notice that any time something like this comes up at ArbCom, the result is that wikiprojects are told, yet again, that WP:CONLEVEL policy really does pertain to them too and really is about their behavior (e.g. in WP:ARBINFOBOX, etc.)? Anyone notice that the last time a wikiproject decided guidelines didn't apply to them and they could make up their own rules and require other editors to comply, the RfC turned 40 to 15 against them (with almost all of the 15 being participants in that project, i.e. they got near-zero external support, plus did not even get much support from their own fellows in the same wikiproject)?

I have to wonder just what the hell it takes before it sinks in that WP has its own style manual, title policy, and naming conventions (and history of precedent in working out their interaction). How many chest-beating, territorial threat displays have to have cold water dumped on them before it is finally understood that even if you refuse to write to conform to WP's style, other editors are permitted to and will fix the noncompliance later? If you submitted an article to Nature or The New York Times, you would conform to their style guide, or an editor there would bring it into conformance before publication. WP is no different, other than we're volunteers here with no deadline, so the compliance often comes along later.

Actually, the article itself suggests why there's this fight-to-the-death push to capitalize in this case: "The Woodhead line has achieved a cult status with collectors of railway memorabilia." It's a fandom matter, i.e. yet another WP:SSF. And now you're here trying to WP:CANVASS people into re-litigating that just-closed RM at a new thread you opened immediately under it? Seriously? At ANI itself? If you think the closer erred, take it to WP:MR, the prescribed process for challenging RM closes.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  09:52, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have to wonder just what the hell it takes before it sinks in that WP has its own style manual, title policy, and naming conventions...

I have to wonder when it will sink in that the MOS is a guideline and not a religious doctrine and that people like you and Dicklyon aren't its High Priests and Defenders of the Faith? --Calton | Talk 10:06, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:POLICY. Any time you believe you have a WP:IAR case to make against the applicability of any guideline (or policy for that matter), you are welcome to do so, and it's up to the consensus of the editing community whether you are making a legitimate IAR claim (i.e., that following the rule – whether it be in a page with {{Policy}}, {{Guideline}}, or whatever on it – will interfere with making an objective improvement to the encyclopedia). It is no accident that IAR is rarely invoked correctly or successfully. IAR does not mean "ignore any rule I don't like or find inconvenient for subjective reasons."  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  07:42, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, WP:POLICY applies to policies. Guidelines are not policies, and those who try to enforce them as such are mistaken, and they are the genesis of a great deal of disruption. There are rules and there are rules. Policies are the latter, and must be obeyed unless there's a damn good WP:IAR reason not to. The former are guildelines, which are suggestions as to the best practices on Wikipedia, but can be overridden whenever there is a good reason to do so. The failure to understand the differences between guidelines and policies is a major cause of musinderstanding and disuption, and it's high time that admins start to block editors who attempt to enforce MOS guidelines as if they were mandatory, which they are not. Guidelines have consensus, but it is consensus to be a guideline, not to be a mandatory policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 08:50, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As the shortcut goes to Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines, I'm pretty sure it's not just about policies. Best practices are best practices. Dicklyon (talk) 04:46, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Guidelines may be overridden with a "good reason", while policies require a "damn good reason"? I'll resist the temptation to inquire about the differences, fascinating and nuanced as they must be. A "good reason" is still necessary. Guidelines are the default position, and users wishing to ignore them bear the burden of proof. "Oh, that's just a guideline" is not a good reason. "Our WikiProject wants it this way" is not a good reason. "I disagree with/don't care about the MoS" is not a good reason. Joefromrandb (talk) 05:22, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Threats from SMcCandlish

Since there is a near 0% chance this will be accepted at ArbCom, I'm reopening this thread after Jbhunley's good faith close. This can probably be resolved here before the ArbCom request is even archived. Jbhunley's closing statement is copied below for posterity. --Floquenbeam (talk) 16:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Jbhunley's original closing statement: This is now the subject of a request for arbitration [15]. Splitting the discussion serves only to confuse matters. Jbh^Talk 02:14, 9 January 2017 (UTC) (non-admin closure)[reply]

I recently nominated a category tree for renaming in the first section of Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2016 December 8, and after it was closed in favor of renaming, I followed the closing administrator's instructions to have the categories renamed; I initially listed them at WP:CFDS because I wasn't 100% sure how to have them bot-renamed (there's nothing here precisely comparable to Commons:User:CommonsDelinker/commands) and knew that admins active there were familiar with doing this, although I specifically stated that this was a technical matter of enforcing the CFD and not subject to the normal provision permitting people to object. However, once I discovered how to do it, I listed them on the bot-move page, and the bot moved these categories. Despite this clear situation, BrownHairedGirl has rejected the whole situation, claiming that an objection she made to the listing at CFDS prohibits this situation from going forward, and she has now ordered the bot to begin recreating them: she is creating over one hundred categories that were deleted in accordance with a CFD. On top of all of this, we have a profoundly disingenuous situation: she accused me of violating WP:INVOLVED by listing them on the bot-move page (it's full-protected) despite the fact that I was merely following the closing admin's instructions. At the same time, she has first injected herself into the discussion and then taken precisely the type of action that she considers to have been a violation on my part. When you use admin tools to follow someone else's instructions carefully, you're not INVOLVED, but when you do it on your own initiative, you definitely are.

After warnings, we block people who create more than a few pages in defiance of an XFD; it's time to enforce the CFD decision with a block long enough to ensure that the pages be moved back to the CFD-chosen place. There's no place for someone who edit-wars to create more than a hundred pages after their deletion at XFD. Nyttend (talk) 01:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• @Nyttend: you forgot to notify her. Done [16]. Jbh^Talk 01:53, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Actually, I was writing up something else and hadn't yet gotten to it. Given my warning that going ahead with this would result in a request for sanctions, and her statement that she was "taking the bait" (see the "rejected the whole situation" link), I was planning to do all the notifications as soon as I was done with my writeups. Nyttend (talk) 01:56, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh dear. I did hope that Nyttend would take a deep breath and recognise that they just might have acted unwisely, but it seems not.

This is not complicated:

A/ I dispute the right of a CFD closer to dictate the outcome of categories which were neither listed nor tagged in the CFD discussion, because editors will not have been warned of a possible change to such categories.

B/ Regardless of the merits of the closure, the closer's instruction[17] was tonominate the relevant sub-cats for speedy renaming. Note that word "nominate", because that does not grant Nyttend or anyone else the right to ignore all the long-standing procedures for CFD nominations.

Sadly, Nyttend did ignore nearly all of them. AS I pointed out on Nyttend's talk page:

1. They listed the categories at CFD/S, but did not validly nominate them for CFD/S, because they didn't tag them
2. Having listed (but not tagged) them, they simply ignored an objection at CFD/S, having somehow decided that they had a right to unilaterally overrule any objections -- despite there being no such exemption at CFD
3. Having ignored the objection, they then proceeded to implement the moves only 46 minutes after listing them, despite the clear instructions at WP:CFD/S that nominations must remain listed for 48 hours
4. And they did all of this in respect of a CFD nomination which they themselves had made, so you were certainly WP:INVOLVED

Regardless of what anyone thinks of the closer's decision, the closer did not instruct Nyttend to bypass CFD/S as they did.

I am also disappointed by the aggressively hostile and threatening response of Nyttend to my challenge to their actions. That does not not fit well with the civility required in WP:ADMINACCT. And the WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT nature of Nyttend's post here is equally unimpressive. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:07, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Just on principle, I'd suggest that anything here that involved 200 of anything (in this case, categories and moves) should be done belt and braces, to say the least; the level of care required has not, perhaps, been adequately exhibited in this case. If any other editor had done this and then complained at ANI, I think there would be murmurs of aboriginal tools, etc; I suggest the filer withdraw it ASAP- if the community allows that. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 17:08, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment Trouts all 'round and move on. Nyttend's interpretation of the CfD result seems reasonable to me, even if the minutiae of the process wasn't followed exactly. BHG's attempt at "discussion" ("Are you going to revert promptly, or will I do it?") wasn't exactly aimed at getting to the bottom of things. Nyttend's response was, in part, needlessly inflammatory ("Yeah? Try it and I'll have your bit!" (this may not be a literal quote)), and BHG's response needlessly focused on the worst part, ignoring the offer to discuss informally or redo the CfD. I'd suggest to Nyttend that threatening to go after an admin's bit on the basis of a CfD that didn't really follow the process because you couldn't be bothered to tag all the pages is going someone overboard. And I'd suggest to BHG that any time the phrase "Nevertheless, I will take the bait" escapes your keyboard, you should probably think twice. Now let's have another, proper CfD that, you know, lists all the categories affected and tags the relevant pages. GoldenRing (talk) 17:20, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @GoldenRing: That sequencing omits my objection at CFD/S[18] and moving of the listing to the opposed section, which Nyttend simply ignored.
    Yes, I was terse in my reply, but since my politely-worded objection had not even been acknowledged, I saw no point in beating about the bush. If the moves were to be everted, it was best that it be done quickly before any further changes complicated matters, so I wanted to get straight to the point.
    I accept that "I'll take the bait" was probably not a helpful phrase, but I was thrown at the time by the extraordinary aggression of Nyttend's threatening response, and wanted to convey that I would not be intimidated. (Having recently been on the receiving end of domestic violence in which I was threatened with retribution for calling police, that sort of aggression and threatened victimisation cuts deep with me). Still, poor phrasing.
    There is a WP:ADMINACCT issue here, and I sincerely hope that Nyttend will be able to assure us that: a) as admin, they will in future at leaat reply to an objection from another admin before using their tools; b) their threatening hostility when challenged over this use of their admin tools is a totally out-of-character episode which will not be repeated. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:10, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment (non-admin, active on CfD) If I had been Nyttend I would have said "I realize I was wrong and I'll never do it like this again" instead of filing this complaint against BrownHairedGirl. If I had been BrownHairedGirl I would have filed a complaint against Nyttend (after they clearly did not regret their behaviour in any way) but also I would not immediately have reverted Nyttend's page moves since it is very likely that the moves are in line with consensus. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:43, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Marcocapelle: I think that the question of whether the moves are in line with consensus is as yet unanswered. The CFD discussion attracted only one !vote; it listed only 1 of the 222 categories affected; and it involved the tagging of only 5 affected categs (4 were added to the discussion[19] only 1 minute before closure[20]). That's not a good test of consensus, and nor was the fact of the categories being untagged at CFD/S and listed there for only 46 minutes rather than the 48 hour minimum.
    It takes only a minutes to use WP:AWB to generate a list of categories for a CFD discussion, and a few minutes more to tag them. If a nominator lacks the tools or skills to do that, the good folk at WP:BOTREQ will help with a smile. And doing it ensures that everyone potentially interested is properly notified, both through sight of the category pages and through the article alerts system.
    And yes, maybe I should have filed a complaint after Nyttend's hostile response ... but my immediate concern was to restore the status quo ante before any further changes complicated or impeded a reversion. The community can now decide how to handle the remaining 217 categories. I am tempted to ask Fayenatic london to reconsider their closure of the CFD, since I think it was too far-reaching and thereby ultra vires; but between this discussion and a still-open RFAR, I'd prefer to leave a decision on that step still later. I know that Fayenatic london acted in good faith in making a closure which they thought was in line with a undocumented consensus; I disagree, but I think it might be helpful to have a DRV to resolve that question, which underlies all of this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:36, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Has there been any documented disagreement regarding the actual merits of the renaming proposal so far? As far as I can see, BHG seems to have stated her objections purely on the procedural level (and she probably had a point on that level), but she hasn't said if and why she would actually prefer the old titles. To me, the new ones (as favoured by Nyttend) appear to be rather obvious and undisputable improvements, and I honestly struggle to think of any reason a competent speaker of English might see for preferring the old set. If BHG has some substantial argument in their favour, or at least provide some plausible grounds for thinking that other editors might have such reasons, then it would make sense to say, "hey, let's roll this back and wait for some more feedback". If not, her complaint should be thrown out as unproductive process-wonkery. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:29, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Fut.Perf.: See my reply above to Marcocapelle. My objection is not process-wonkery; it is about the failure to do the notifications which might have generated more views to be added to be a very poorly-attended CFD debate.
    The CFD was based on so little tagging of the affected categories (5 out of 222, or only 2%) that we simply don't know whether other views might have been added to the 1 !vote at CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:44, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, your answer has again been purely on the process level. I'll ask you one more time, directly: do you, personally, actually have a reason to prefer the old titles, or can you at least think of such an argument? If you won't name such an argument here and now, I for one will consider the case closed. It's all very well to be an advocate for procedural fairness, but if there isn't at least a plausible expectation of a potential, legitimate content disagreement to be had, that is a waste of energy. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:58, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think you are missing the point. I can think of a number of situations where I have made a proposal I thought was a slam-dunk, as I could not envision any rational opposition, but upon presentation to a broad group of editors, learned that there were some objections that I hadn't considered. While I think the proposed wording is an improvement, and can't think why anyone would disagree, the main point is that the editors who might have an opinion on the subject were not notified. We have rules for notification and a 48 period for comment for a good reason - someone might come up with a coherent objection, and it doesn't hurt the project to ask and wait two days to be sure.--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's exactly why I intervened. I have not even tried to form a view on the substantive merits. I just want to ensure that those who might want to take a substantive view get a chance to do so.
          And if I had taken any any substantive view, I would not have used my admin tools, because then I would have been WP:INVOLVED. — Preceding unsigned comment added by BrownHairedGirl (talk • contribs) 22:00, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment While I'm sure this does not yet belong at ArbCom, I'm not yet convinced it even belongs here. I don't pretend to have a full grasp on the process issues, but my review of the background suggests that Nyttend and BHG Have a disagreement about the exact protocol for making this change. It looks to me like a sensible change but sometimes t's need to be crossed and i's need to be dotted before changes are effected. I think these two ought to be asked to have a discussion, probably on a CFD talk page and only if that discussion fails to reach a consensus should it end up here.--S Philbrick(Talk) 18:47, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Sphilbrick: The place where this discussion should have taken happened was at WP:CFD/S#Opposed_nominations. There is indeed a discussion there, in response to my objection, but sadly Nyttend chose to ignore it and instead to escalate to here and RFAR. I would happy for the substantive discussion to be continued at WP:CFD/S#Opposed_nominations ... but I do think that there is as a WP:ADMINACCT issue to be considered here in relation to Nyttend's conduct. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 18:55, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment (as closer of original CFD): The original CFD listed 5 categories at the top of the relevant hierarchy. All five were tagged. Only one was listed in the usual format at the start of the CFD, but the other four tagged categories were mentioned in the nomination. I therefore believe it was acceptable for me to also list them in the usual format before closing the discussion. I am raising this minor point first in my own defence because BrownHairedGirl raised this at 18:36 above, in the paragraph raising the possibility of a DRV.

In my (5 years?) experience at CFD no-one takes exception to an WP:INVOLVED admin processing items that they have listed at CFDS themselves, but the categories must be tagged and must wait 48 hours, and should not be processed if there is any opposition. As Nyttend had not followed these steps, IMHO it was in order for BrownHairedGirl to use the bot to revert Nyttend's hasty processing. I note that BrownHairedGirl has extensive experience at CFD, whereas Nyttend's efforts have been mainly at Commons and elsewhere.

It seems to me that trouts will be sufficient sanction, and the case in question should play out at CFDS. – Fayenatic London 22:22, 9 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Shouldn't we update WP:INVOLVED to formalize admins to be allowed processing items that they have listed at CFDS themselves? (I fully agree that this should be allowed if there is no opposition at all after 48 hours.) Marcocapelle (talk) 07:10, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• I share Fayenatic london's experience that CFDS has for years accepted admins processing moves which they had requested provided that all procedural requirements were met. I am not aware of this having met any objections, so I support Marcocapelle's proposal to note this at WP:INVOLVED. Obviously, that should note the requirement for all procedures to have been followed, with no admin allowed to use discretion in their own favour. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:23, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: Although I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of CfD, I agree with the part of BHG's objection that said this should have had wider discussion and should be re-opened and re-listed citing all of the types of categories that will be affected, and given a wider airing. The CfD had only a single !vote, and in my mind probably should have at the very least been re-listed before closing. Also, I have to say, as an English major and professional editor, the old word order was correct English and the proposed new word order is not. That is, "populated [waterside] places" is correct English word order, and "[waterside] populated places" is not, or at the very least is much less so and is awkward. Also we have here two admins, one whose specialty is categories, and one who has made less than 0.9% of their edits in categories. I think the latter should have at least given the former respect and a valid hearing. Softlavender (talk) 04:51, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Section header for easy editing

• I've been offline most of the day. Among our basic principles are the concepts of not demanding rigid adherence to process, of obeying community consensus as determined at XFDs, and of not using administrative tools to win battles. Here we have a CFD that closes in favor of a set of actions including instructions to me to get some categories renamed, BHG objects because I don't rigidly obey a process that's meant for undiscussed moves (note that the result of opposition at CFDS is a CFD, which was already completed), I strongly reject her demands to go against the CFD consensus and remind her that she's free to start a new discussion about the subject, and she goes ahead anyway and uses administrative tools to win the battle by creating more than one hundred categories after their deletion in accordance with the CFD. It's well established that abuse of rights leads to those rights being removed: create a lot of pages in defiance of XFD after being warned and your editing rights get removed, use rollback in a simple dispute (just my example, not something that happened here) and you lose rollback, vandalise a template and template-editor gets removed (again, example), and use admin rights in defiance of XFD consensus and you lose admin rights. Nyttend (talk) 05:11, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nyttend, see the top of WP:CFD/S. In the first para it says that categories must be tagged with {{subst:cfr-speedy|New name}} so that users of the categories are aware of the proposal and that a request may be processed 48 hours after it was listed if there are no objections. This delay allows other editors to review the request to ensure that it meets the criteria for speedy renaming or merging, and to raise objections to the proposed change.

You — and you alone — decided to ignore all that.

1. Nobody else told you to list the categories without tagging them; that was your unilateral decision. The CFD closer told you to nominate the relevant sub-cats for speedy renaming[21]. They did not tell you to skip the CFD/S requirement for tagging the categories, and had no authority to tell you to do so.
2. Nobody else told you to override any objections; that was your unilateral decision. The CFD closer told you to nominate the relevant sub-cats for speedy renaming[22]. They did not tell you to override CFD/S procedures in relation to objections, and had no authority to tell you to do so.
3. Nobody else told you to ignore the 48 hour delay rule; that was your unilateral decision. The CFD closer told you to nominate the relevant sub-cats for speedy renaming[23]. They did not tell you to cut the CFD/S requirement for a 48 hour delay down to 46 minutes, and had no authority to tell you to do so.
4. Nobody else told you to use your own admin tools to trigger the bots. The CFD closer told you to nominate the relevant sub-cats for speedy renaming[24]. They did not tell you to use your own admin tools to implement the nomination.

I am not WP:INVOLVED. I have no substantive view on these categories, and throughout this I have sought only to uphold procedures so that interested editors get a chance to comment on proposals. I objected because I believed that the closing admin had exceeded their discretion, and the rest of this saga has been about you exceeding that closing admin's instructions.

You, however, are WP:INVOLVED, because you used your tools against objections, in breach of process rules, in pursuit of a proposal which yourself had initiated.

Per WP:ADMINACCT, you are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed. When I lodged my procedural objection[25] to your CFD/S nomination, I was unaware that you intended to use your own admin tools. But when you chose to use your tools, you then had a WP:ADMINACCT responsibility to respond promptly and civilly to a procedural objection.

Having used your admin tools, you then had a WP:ADMINACCT responsibility to respond promptly and civilly to my request[26] that you revert. Instead you chose to respond with a threat[27] that sanctions will be requested immediately: a block, [snipquote] and a desysop.

You have been an admin since November 2007, almost as long as me. Nine years is quite long enough for you have learnt WP:ADMINACCT. You have been an editor since 2006-08-08, which is quite long enough for you to learn to read and follow the instructions on a procedural page before using that procedure.

You have falsely accused me WP:WHEELWARing, a serious matter which involves reinstating the reversal of an admin action. In fact, I reversed an admin action per WP:RAAA. After your 9 years as an admin, it's time you took a few minutes to study the difference.

As others have pointed out, I have been a regular participant at CFD for over ten years, whereas you appear to be unfamiliar with the procedure. When an admin vastly-more experienced than you in a particular field lodges a procedural objection to your proposed course of action, it is common sense to at least try to discuss that objection before proceeding.

The status quo ante has now been restored. It's long past time for you to abandon your desire for vengeance aginst an admin who thwarted your desire to override long-standing procedures, and get back to the discussion at WP:CFD/S#Opposed_nominations. See you there. -BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:18, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Nyttend seems to be racking up quite a "threaten to go after people for not agreeing with me" record: [28] (summary: a clearly WP:INVOLVED close at RM, that threatened sanctions for using normal move processes in ways well supported by a long string of consensus decisions, just because he doesn't like the guideline in question – Nyttend was one of its most outspoken opponents at an RfC about it within the year, and had also agitated about the matter at the talk page of one of the RM participants). "I'm going to see you administratively punished" is not an appropriate approach for an admin to take about process not going the way they desire. I think this should be addressed sooner rather than later. It's not being addressed here now, and wasn't a few days ago, because these actions are being viewed in isolation. So: let's not view them in isolation.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  20:42, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

The closer of the CFD, Fayenatic london, wrote the following a few hours ago at CFDS: "As for the categories nominated here, now that speedy renaming has been opposed (both on procedure by BrownHairedGirl and on merits by David Eppstein), they need to go to a full CFD. I suggest that this should present "Option A" and "Option B", either to approve the nomination, or to reverse the Dec 8 CFD." [29]. I propose that this be done forthwith, and a link to that discussion posted to this ANI. Softlavender (talk) 07:26, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support. That's the standard CFD/S way of handling objections. Time to move on, and start fixing this. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 08:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support GoldenRing (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support --S Philbrick(Talk) 17:32, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Abstain from !voting on this as an ANI proposal, but I'm supportive of this resolution to the conflict. We shouldn't need an ANI thread and formal proposal to the broader community to tell us to conduct an opposed speedy rename as we always do. It's well outside the scope of ANI to interfere with how our deletion processes are run, even in the sense of affirming how they're run. This should just be closed as no administrative action merited. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 19:37, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Question for BU Rob13: If the status quo ante has been restored (which I think it has given BHG's comment in the section prior to this one), and no further rumble ensues, are you saying or implying that an additional CfD may not even be necessary (providing that the involved parties implicitly or explicitly concede to the status quo ante and/or withdraw the original CFD and CfD/S)? I'm not sure how all this works; my initial proposal was designed to put an end to the unnecessary squabble and move on to the resolution, but if the matter is already resolved by default or by protocol, then perhaps indeed this entire ANI filing can be closed as no administrative action needed, unless Nyttend continues his objections. IMO editors who call into question Nyttend's lack of judgment here and cite a possible pattern may have some cause for concern and could open a new thread or subthread, or file or post further at ArbCom, but I personally would just as soon have this matter settled without that drama, since the procedural protocol is pretty clear. Softlavender (talk) 06:37, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That about sums up my thoughts as well. The step too far here was in the filing of the ANI. And it's not even that is represents problematic conduct so much as it makes me wonder at Nyttend's perspective on this affair that he thought BHG's conduct on the categories would sustain the call for a block. So while I'd like Nyttend to take more caution from this episode than his comments have suggested he has, I think if this can end without further sanction, it will be better overall. I don't think either of these two is about to make a grudge out of this, so I'd personally hope that nobody launches a follow up thread in the hopes this may end as amicably as it may. Snow ^{let's rap} 06:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Snow Rise: How exactly was I WP:INVOLVED? I acted throughout in admin capacity to uphold procedure, and that is clearly exempted from WP:INVOLVED. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@BrownHairedGirl: You weren't (at least not especially, beyond the fact that some tense comments were exchanged). I was saying that Nyttend was involved, to the degree that they supported the moves. However, I actually got the "I'll have your bit" comment confused with other conduct from another ANI here when commenting on Nyttend (which is embarrassing), so I've amended my comment above to remove the innacurate reference to involvement. Apologies for the confusion. Snow ^{let's rap} 22:26, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Softlavender: Any editor can, of course, take this to a CfD discussion. That's not something we need ANI to tell us to do, though. ANI isn't a venue to say when a deletion discussion is or isn't needed. It's a venue to request administrative review of a situation that may warrant administrative action. Anyone, including an administrator, may open a CfD on this issue in their capacity as a volunteer editor if they wish for this to be discussed further. ~ Rob₁₃^Talk 03:52, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support - This should not have come this far. WP:IAR doesn't mean that processes and procedures can be ignored simply because they are in an editor's (or administrator's) way. For example, once an article has been PRODded, it cannot be PRODded again if the PROD is contested. Period. One also cannot simply delete/rename/move a series of articles/templates/categories/etc. simply because a few related articles were so deleted/renamed/moved at XfD or RM. Many trout are swimming in these waters. I recommend closing this and taking all affected categories through a full CfD. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 01:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - I'm sensitive to BU Rob 13's argument above, but because an Arbitration request was, to some extent, dependent on there being an outcome to this ANI, I think a !vote is appropriate, even if it shouldn't be necessary. Beyond My Ken (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• This is the most obvious solution anyway, no need to vote for, per Rob13. The proposal implies however that no actions are being taken against BrownHairedGirl which I fully support. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:00, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: Until the procedure is in fact enacted, I feel it is necessary to !vote for it, because apparently(?) it has not yet been enacted due to Nyttend's accusations and/or threats. If someone would just go ahead and create the appropriate CfD as proposed by Fayenatic and reiterated above, and leave a link to it here, then we could all probably get back to doing whatever it is we do when we are not on the drama boards. Softlavender (talk) 11:44, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support as proposer. Softlavender (talk) 11:44, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support – I am astonished at Nyttend's reaction. Opposed speedies cannot proceed as speedies and have to go to cfd. There are plenty of proposals at speedy which are opposed for one reason or another. Some succeed at cfd, others don't. Oculi (talk) 01:04, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support - This is a tempest in a teapot, so we need to let the storm run its course. !Vote on the CFDs. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:54, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support provided there are no actions taken against BrownHairedGirl. This seems to be something that was needlessly escalated. I think there should probably be some trouting all around.--Cameron₁₁₅₉₈ ^(Talk) 01:52, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support This is the clear way forward. What we have here are two broadly respected admins who happened to share a bad day over some poor calls. Others have hilighted each of those stumbles above, so I won't belabour those details; suffice it to say, both users made multiple departures from both best practice and the principle of civil engagement over this matter. I don't know either incredibly well, but have had enough experience with both to suspect that, at this point, each is more embarrassed about this affair than they are letting on, for fear of ceding too much ground to the other in this discussion. So let's just back the whole matter up to the foreshortened CfD, proceed as normal from there, and move along. I'd also add that it would be nice to see some mutual apology once the substantive issue is resolved (for the curtness and lack of collegiality, even if they can't come to see eye-to-eye on the procedural matter), but it will suffice if each retires to their corner civilly. Snow ^{let's rap} 02:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support I think this is the right way forward here after reading everything above.Class455 (talk|stand clear of the doors!) 22:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Back at CFD

Per the discussion above, and a discussion with Fayenatic london and Nyttend at User talk:Fayenatic london#Next_steps_re_Waterside_populated_places (permalink), I have created a new CFD discussion at WP:CFD 2017 January 16. This lists all the categories, and offers editors a choice between finishing the renaming proposed by Nyttend, or reverting the 5 categories renamed so far.

In the discussion at FL's talk page, we have begun considering an RFC to examine the underlying procedural issues.

Thanks to everyone for their input. Does that wrap this whole thing up? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:06, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I think that does wrap things up, since there were no objections to this and no other proposed options, but we might want to leave this ANI thread unclosed so that for the next three days (that is, until the bot archives it after 72 hours of inactivity) people will notice the new CfD and !vote at it if they have an opinion. Softlavender (talk) 11:48, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have been creating content on a long article Concerto transcriptions (Bach) for a while with perhaps 500 edits. It had an "in use" tag on it a few hours ago. Francis Schonken, who has been Tracking my edits for the last few months, was therefore aware that I was writing a huge amount of content there. I have been over the past 7 or 8 years one of the main contributors to articles on Bach's organ music; these pieces fall into that category. Francis Schonken has vandalised the article in the last few hours in an aggressive way. He did not give any warning. None at all. This was a very long article.

Could an administrator please restore the article that I was editing? I cannot even find the editing history.

It was a long article entitled Concerto transcriptions (Bach). Francis Schonken's editing on Bach-related articles was restricted before for tendentious editing on articles and their talk pages, mostly related to Bach's religious music. Those restrictions should probably be reinstated and strengthened. This editing might even warrant a block. Francis Schonken has shifted around a huge amount of content that I was creating. His aggressive actions show that he is not interested in helping the reader and indded is trying to stop me editing.

I cannot even find my editing history on the article on Concerto transcriptions (Bach) because of thr games he's been playing. He waits until the middle of the noght Europen time to make these disruotive edits. That is what is just happened. I will try to restore the article I was editing but would like help from an administrator. Perhpas the easiest wasy is to block his editing and then somehow restore the article. Mathsci (talk) 05:54, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: It must have been obvious when I made the filing that I was still correcting the original report, prepared in a state of consternation. While that was happening other editors started commenting, without allowing me time to proof-read this and then notify Francis Schonken. Mathsci (talk) 08:20, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathsci: You were required to notify Francis Schonken of this discussion per the instructions at the top of the page. I did it for you. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 05:58, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You removed my comment and made a bunch of edits to this post, but, whatever. I believe the article you have been contributing to is located at Concerto for unaccompanied harpsichord (Bach) which has a long history of your edits and has recently been moved from Concerto transcriptions (Bach) which is currently just a redirect accesible here. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:00, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Noting that the middle of the night European time is only an hour earlier for FS... O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 06:04, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 2) You also left {{in use}} in place for several days without actually working on the article. It was automatically removed as stale by JL-Bot yesterday. — Jkudlick ⚓ t ⚓ c ⚓ s 06:05, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: At this point, I believe the continuing conflict between FrancisSchonken and Mathsci, which boiled over in May 2016 and has merely accelerated since then ([30], [31], [32], [33], [34]), needs to go to ArbCom. It has lasted too long, and has still not improved despite a resultant 6-month 1RR editing restriction on Francis Schonken, who started right back on his apparent hounding of Mathsci when the 6 months ended. I'm not necessarily taking sides here; although I sense that Francis has normally been the aggressor, Mathsci has his own inopportune behaviors that exacerbate the situation. I would possibly normally in this sort of case recommend an IBAN, but I don't think that is going to work in this situation, since we have two classical-music knowledgeable editors whose contributions are usually good when they are not at each others' throats, and their editing paths may seemingly of necessity cross. I think at this point a good and thorough forensic analysis of who has done what, and why and how, needs to be done, in order to come up with solutions that work best for the encyclopedia. I would like to invite two neutral and experienced editors, Voceditenore and Johnuniq, to opine here, as they have seen some of this unfolding and have effectively opined about it here on ANI in the past. Softlavender (talk) 06:18, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored Concerto transcriptions (Bach) myself having found out where it was put. There was no controversial content; I have been busy in Cambridge University Library reading reference sources on Vivaldi on the concertos transcribed. These volumes are not available on the web (they have detailed comments on hand written copies and transcriptions). The pattern of of HOUNDING is clear enough and has been described at WikiProject Classical Music (where Softlavender commented before). Francis Schonken made no comments there. He asked about a musical genre which is not current. In the past at WP:RSN he has been told not use primary sources, only secondary sources. His current editing looks like some kind of new stunt. Howeverem the article is restored. I will content adding content to it and the related summary content concerned on the 9 Vivaldi concertos Bach transcribed (the article L'estro Armonico). Mathsci (talk) 06:37, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mathsci, you've actually just created a redirect loop Concerto transcriptions (Bach) -> Weimar concerto transcription (Bach) -> Concerto transcriptions (Bach). The article you want is Concerto for unaccompanied harpsichord (Bach), you'll want to make the others redirect there. Though since you've asked admin assistance, and SL is recommending ARBCOM, I don't know how wise doing anything further to those pages would be. That is regardless of whether I am a member of the "Peanut gallery" or otherwise. Mr rnddude (talk) 06:44, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article I have been writing is now at Concerto transcriptions for organ and harpsichord (Bach). I wanted it to be at the old title,

"Concerto transcriptions (Bach)". If User:Doug Weller or another administrator is around, could they please help? I am not quite sure what happened. I probably made a careless error somewhere. It is the main article on wikipedia discussing those transcriptions. I chose the short title. This is OK, but not as short and snappy as I would like. Francis Schonken's intention was to cause distress not to help the reader. Mathsci (talk) 06:51, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Note: This is a recent, related thread on WikiProject Classical Music which was mentioned in a post above: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Classical_music#Page_on_Bach.27s_unaccompanied_keyboard_concertos.3F. -- Softlavender (talk) 07:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Here is the discussion where Francis Schonken was advised by 5 editors not to use primary sources Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_215#Deletions_at_Six_Sonatas_for_Violin_and_Harpsichord,_BWV_1014–1019. He kept the thread running for three weeks in October. He ignored the advice. Mathsci (talk) 07:16, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I have sorted out the redirects. Both point to the article currently being edited. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:38, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Although this issue seems to have been needlessly complicated. FS started the article at Weimar concerto transcription (Bach) on 15th December and the Concerto transcriptions for organ and harpsichord (Bach) on the 25th December. On the 31st december Mathsci redirected the Weimar article elsewhere as a POV Fork (It wasnt a fork by the standard definition at that point although arguably it is a 'fork' of content included at the latter article.) and it goes through a number of other redirects/moves before pointing at Concerto transcriptions. If the intended sole article location is to be 'Concerto transcriptions (Bach)' please start a formal move request, as at this point its just getting ridiculous. Only in death does duty end (talk) 12:49, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I have this vivid recollection of Francis Schonken having been topic-banned or something like that for moving articles without discussion. I find a reprimand by Boing! said Zebedee in the talk page archive, here, and I'm sure there's more. As far as I'm concerned Francis Schonken should be barred from making any moves at all (or forking content, re-forking content, renaming articles). Drmies (talk) 18:34, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes it happened here:

• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive925#Francis_Schonken.27s_disruptive_conduct_is_preventing_content_creation_on_Orgelb.C3.BCchlein

The problematic editing has not improved. All that has happened is that most of his edits are related to topics I edit. He has abandoned editing cantatas and mainly edits in the subjects close to my long established interests (e.g. Bach organ music and more generally my repertoire as a keyboard player/organist/accompanist). Mathsci (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am not familiar with the content because I have not edited classical music. I will comment that I have seen both editors, User:Mathsci and User:Francis Schonken, pop up on these drama boards in the past. My most recent encounter was of disruption of the dispute resolution process by Mathsci. Francis Schonken filed a request for moderated dispute resolution at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Mathsci deleted it. While dispute resolution is voluntary, and an editor may decline to take part, deleting the request is a violation of talk page guidelines. I restored but archived the filing, and advised that a Request for Comments would be in order. Francis Schonken then asked what to do because Mathsci had deleted the RFC, which is similarly a violation of talk page guidelines and is disruptive. I advised that RFCs should not be deleted. As I said, I am not familiar with the content dispute, and Francis Schonken may indeed be disruptive, but Mathsci's conduct was also disruptive. I would optimistically suggest that these editors could request formal mediation. Otherwise topic bans may be necessary, and neither editor is clean. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:03, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See above. As Drmies says, Francis Schonken has a history of disruption. You have been told that before at WT:DRN: you were told explicitly about his editing restrictions, but you chose to ignore it. Please then read what happened that resulted in his editing restrictions. Before his disruptive conduct was directed at many people. Now he finds it more convenient to have me as the sole target of his disruption, following some of the topics I have edited for 7 or 8 years. Here he took this anodyne carefully written article, still in the course of creation:

Concerto transcriptions for organ and harpsichord (Bach)

blanked it and copy-pasted it overnight to create this mess

[35].

All the editing history was lost. That was disruptive editing. This is the kind of content I create BWV 596. I believe it is fairly well written and it certainly does not require mediation. Mathsci (talk) 22:19, 11 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mathsci - It is true that at WP:DRN you told me that User:Francis Schonken had a history of disruption. That is true. (It also true that Mathsci has a history of disruption.) It is true that I chose to ignore the statement about a history of disruption, because DRN is a content forum, not a conduct forum. In the specific case, Francis Schonken tried to request discussion of content issues at DRN, and Mathsci deleted the post, which was a violation of talk page guidelines, and then I restored and archived it as a declined dispute. Then there was a lengthy discussion at the DRN talk page, but the DRN talk page isn't either a place to discuss content (discuss it at the DRN project page) or a place to discuss conduct. We are discussing conduct here at WP:ANI. I still see a content dispute and conduct issues. Sometimes discussing content in an orderly fashion can mitigate conduct disputes. I still think that the only two feasible alternatives are formal mediation or topic bans. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:25, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon I have no idea what you mean by "Mathsci has a history of disruption". That looks like a WP:PA. My editing in articles on baroque music, e.g. for the creation of Clavier-Übung III, was praised by the arbitration committee in 2010. The editing of Orgelbüchlein going on at the moment with contributions like BWV 611 and BWV 632 is no different. Nor are BWV 39, BWV 1044, BWV 1052, BWV 1053, BWV 1055, BWV 1017, BWV 1019, etc.

Francis Schonken has had many people complain about his edits on articles on baroque music. He made problems on BWV 4 and its talk page.

That has not happened with me. Indeed people thank me for my edits, e.g. for my creation of Organ Sonatas (Bach) and my edits to Giulio Cesare. Herr Jesu Christ, dich zu uns wend is an example of a collaboration with user:Gerda Arendt related to BWV 632.

The recent editing spree of Francis Schonken was clearly problematic. He seems to have suddenly disappeared immediately after making those edits:

1. "restore, + import from Concerto transcriptions (Bach), which was a WP:POV fork of this article" [36]
2. "undo page move to a topic with a different scope" [37]
3. "remove content not related to this topic" [38]
4. "matches with that content" [39]

The first appropriated a vast amount of material newly created by me over a few days that I was still in the process of writing (e.g. this content: BWV 596). The copying-pasting obliterated the editing history. The second was a page move shifting that newly created content to another title. The third blanked all that content at the new title. The fourth moved the talk page at that new title to the talk page where the newly created material had been moved. This was disruptive editing.

The request at WP:DRN by Francis Schonken was a frivolous request about the article L'estro Armonico. Francis Schonken said harvnb format could not be used on the references. He also said that no content could be added on Anne Dawson's Book because it was a primary source. He also did not want to use secondary sources for writing the content. These were by the top Vivaldi scholars, namely a 1999 preface to the work by Eleanor Selfridge-Field and a 2010 essay by Michael Talbot. I have written that content now. Normal editing, nothing unusual, no POV pushing, just anodyne content. Francis Schonken has a history of making frivolous requests at noticeboards, e.g. at WP:RSN where he prolonged the discussion for 3 weeks and ignored all advice. You were the person who told me to make a report at WP:ANI if I thought there was any disruption. The disappearance of new content overnight, content never before on wikipedia, is not something I've ever seen before. Mathsci (talk) 20:58, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: For the record, I'd like to confirm that Francis Schonken has an extensive history of disruption, which in my opinion at this point is quite damaging to the project. Something needs to be done, as nothing seems to alter his behavior for the better, and even after admonishments and sanctions, he reverts to disruptive behaviors. This is unfortunate, because he is able to contribute constructively, but often chooses to pick battles and be non-collaborative and downright vindictive instead. Maybe an ArbCom case on Francis alone is in order. Softlavender (talk) 01:11, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I would have closed this case with the following comments but as it's only be open for barely 24 hours, I'll leave time for further comment from admins and established users. Neither of these editors is a stranger to our Blocking Policy, for their behaviour.

I think most appropriate would a single final warning to Francis Schonken who must now take note that further disruption can, and probably will, engender a very long immediate block by any admin, and that will not even need the services of the Arbitration Committee.

Also a reminder goes out to Mathsci of WP:OWN and that we are not here to resolve content issues - people who live in glass houses should not throw stones, and he should be mindful about the use of the term ‘peanut gallery’ when with so few contributors to this thread it could be considered a direct WP:PA at clearly identifiable, well established and respected non-admins. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 02:32, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To be fair Kudpung part of that "peanut gallery" comment may have something to do with my near literal re-write of their original post[40] and JKudlick's posting AN/I notification within a few minutes of the post being created. Mathsci may have felt a bit bombarded by our quick-reflex responses. I want to say that "show preview" exists for a reason, but, that's bridge under the water for me now. Mr rnddude (talk) 14:41, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I second Softlavender's confirmation of FS's extensive history of disruption. Apart from my chiming in at the random intervals when his name shows up on ANI, I have seen him behave very disruptively on Talk:Pontius Pilate's wife, at which article he removed a bunch of justified maintenance tags without addressing the issues and appeared to show a severe lack of understunding of proper sourcing standards, and at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability, where he expressed sympathy for users twisting what their sources say and was very hostile while doing it (to the point of briefly making me want to take a wikibreak). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:02, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Note to Kudpung: Francis has a habit of not responding to these ANI threads, so it might be advisable to post your admonishment on his talk page where he can see it. Even though you pinged him, there's no actual proof that he has read your message. Softlavender (talk) 06:56, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have undone the non-administrative close by Robert McClenon. He has so far shown no idea about my content editing. He made personal attacks on me above. Given the biased unsupported comments he has made here, which are not reflected in what other administrators have said, please could an administrator without his prejudies close this thread, possibly waiting until Francis Schonken reaapears on wikipedia. Thanks, Mathsci (talk)

• Note that I erroneously thought Robert McClenon had closed this thread (as indicated by the comment above and my edit summary). I stupidly thought I was reverting that close, because I had misread the diff, which I mistook for a close. I have thanked Jaron32 for reverting my edit and apologised to him for my stupid error.[41] I have scored through the comment above. I apologise unreservedly to Robert McClenon for mistaking his new section for a non-administrative close. It was a very stupid mis-reading by me. Mathsci (talk) 20:19, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments and Proposals

User:Kudpung admonished both User:Francis Schonken and User:Mathsci that neither of them was a stranger to Wikipedia’s blocking policy. When I said that both Francis Schonken and Mathsci have histories of disruption, I meant precisely that they both have lengthy block logs. Maybe Mathsci will say that they have learned from their mistakes and are a more collaborative editor than in the past. If so, good. (Some editors don’t have to be indeffed three times to learn to edit collaboratively.) I do see that User:Softlavender says that the current conduct of Francis Schonken is disruptive, that a strong warning is needed, and that unfortunately this dispute may need to go to arbitration. I still see conduct issues by both editors. I haven’t researched the content dispute, and the lengthy history of the content dispute is a reason why it may be necessary to have a quasi-judicial inquiry. However, this noticeboard needs to try to resolve this case without arbitration. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Mathsci says that Francis Schonken’s filing at DRN was frivolous. Maybe it was. That wasn’t for Mathsci to decide. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I had suggested, and knew that I was being optimistic, that this content dispute be resolved by formal mediation. I see that Mathsci has rejected that idea. The question now is how to resolve this conduct dispute (since content resolution has failed). I see three possibilities. First, if we have confidence in the community of administrators, give both editors one last chance with a warning that any further disruption will result in an indefinite block. Second, give both editors one last chance, with a warning that any further disruption should go to ArbCom, knowing that an indefinite block from ArbCom is a Site Ban. Third, cut the Gordian knot now and give both editors a three-month topic-ban from classical music, and see if more reasonable editors can deal with the articles, with the knowledge that any further disruption, whether by these two editors or by other editors, will need to go to ArbCom. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:34, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• You did not reply above to my comments. I wrote

and that is what I meant. Francis Schonken was being disurptive in saying "Anne Dawson's Book" could not be explained in an article. There are sources that explain it by the scholars Michael Talbot and Eleanor Selfridge-Field. The current article says the following:

The Ryom-Verzeichnis, explained in detail in the two volumes Ryom (1986) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFRyom1986 (help) and Ryom (2007) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFRyom2007 (help), contains a summary of the known surviving publications, handwritten manuscript copies and arrangements of the concertos. Of these eight were arranged by Bach: three of those for solo violin were arranged for harpsichord; two double violin concertos for organ (two keyboards and pedal); and one of the concertos for four violins was arranged for four harpsichords and orchestra. Four further keyboard arrangements appear in Anne Dawson's book, an English anthology dating from around 1720 of arrangements for clavichord, virginal or harpsichord prepared by an unknown hand. As Ryom (1986, pp. 616–617) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFRyom1986 (help) points out, the fifth concerto Op.3, No.5, RV 519, is the unique concerto to have resulted in so many transcriptions: these are described in detail in Talbot (2010) harvtxt error: no target: CITEREFTalbot2010 (help).

and then later:

Anne Dawson's Book, part of a bequest of baroque musical manuscripts now held in the Henry Watson Music Library in Manchester, contains arrangements for single-manual instrument of the following concertos:

• Op.3, No.5, RV 519 (2 violins, violoncello)
• Op.3, No.7, RV 567 (4 violins)
• Op.3, No.9, RV 230 (solo violin)
• Op.3, No.12, RV 265 (solo violin)

Selfridge-Field describes these as replacing "the virile acrobatics of Vivaldi's violino principale [by] the gentle graces of virginal ornamentation: shakes, coulées, long apoggiaturas, and so forth."

These are standard edits to an article on baroque music. Just like these:

Template:Multi-listen item

Nothing contentious, nothing controversial. (It took two or three days to create the audio file from scratch.) Presumably that is part of my history of disruptive editing. You did not that have the courtesy to reply to my comments where I made them, presumably because it would upset your case that I am a reasonably skilled content editor. BWV 39, BWV 1044, BWV 1052, BWV 1053, BWV 1055, BWV 1017. BWV 1019, BWV 611, BWV 632 and BWV 596 are all examples of that, the last three fairly recent. Mathsci (talk) 20:55, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Robert McClenon, we already have an admonishment by Kudpung that:

There was no similar block admonishment to Mathsci. Since you have not researched Francis Schonken's very long and very extensive history of disruption (against many editors and articles/pages, not just against Mathsci), I think you are misreading the situation. Francis is the aggressor, and Mathsci has merely been reacting, not always in the best way, but there is only so much aggressive hounding one editor can take without losing their cool and doing something unwarranted. I don't personally think this "Comments and Proposals" section is warranted or necessary. I Support Kudpung's proposal of an immediate indefinite block of Francis Schonken (with standard offer), if he continues to disrupt the project or continues to hound Mathsci. Softlavender (talk) 06:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am willing to accept the judgment of others who have more of the situation than I have. I have reported on what I have reported and am willing to accept the opinion of the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:18, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IP editing talk page of Orgelbüchlein refusing to look at main secondary sources

• ‎69.165.196.103 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

This editor arrived out of the blue while I have been busy creating new content. I created BWV 611, then BWV 632 and am now in the middle of BWV 621. There are two sources that cover these chorale preludes in detail:

• Peter Williams, Organ Music of J.S, Bach, 2003, C.U.P.
• Russell Stinson, Orgelbüchlein, 1999, O.U.P.

This editor has not made many edits to wikipedia. They have disclosed that they do not have access to the two main secondary sources. They have been making arbitrary comments on the talk page, not based on any sources. When I told them that, unless they had access to the sources, we couldn't really discuss the article, they decided to go to WP:DRN. User:Johnuniq aleready informed them that the points that they were making not relevant to the article and advised them to come back at a later point. That seemed like good advice. They ignored his comments. The whole thing looks very odd to me as they don't seem to know about the subject of the article, Orgelbüchlein. They have made comments about other well-known compositions of Bach (the first Schübler Chorale), but these are quite unrelated to this article. I find this a bit odd. They left a message for Francis Schonken on his talk page. That also seems odd, for a newbie. Mathsci (talk) 22:37, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is no need to have access to sources to edit a Wikipedia page, at least not in matters of formatting, also according to an admin comment made on the talk page. I did not disregard the other user (at least, the edits I made where before he intervened), I only kept the discussion on the talk page to avoid an edit war (User Mathsci had already reverted my attempt at solving the issues I noted), and also to not disrupt the creation on content on the page (despite the fact that Mathsci does not own the page and that "Wikipedia can be edited by anyone". All my attempts at discussion were in good faith. After seeing it did not work, I went to WP:DRN in the hope of having somebody else (WP:UNINVOLVED) comment on the issue, which was NEVER about the content of Mathsci analysises, NOR the books, but the general formatting of the page. What is wrong with going to DRN? Isn't that a good way to resolve the (very obvious) dispute we're having?

I left a message for Francis Schonken because he had posted in the discussion before and therefore could potentially be concerned.

Mathsci, please read WP:IPs are human too (and WP:Please do not bite the newcomers, for the matter)... 69.165.196.103 (talk) 23:31, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@69.165.196.103: If you are claiming to be an old editor on a new IP (thus explaining your knowledge of obscure WP-namespace pages and your knowing to message FS), why do you cite WP:BITE? You aren't a "newbie" if you have been editing for a while and just got a new IP. Alternatively, if you are claiming to be a new editor, how do you explain your knowledge of Wikipedia policies, guidelines and essays, and your posting on FS's talk page? You can't have it both ways. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I cited BITE because the other involved user in this dispute was acting like I was a newcomer... It was my attempt at a friendly reminder that whatever he thinks of me, we both should respect each other. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 05:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• A specialised article like this on a collection of 46 of Bach's chorale preludes for organ—one of Bach's masterworks—can only be edited using secondary sources. The IP has been told that but refuses to accept it. They even tried to modify the title of this section. That was not helpful.

This complex article is still in the course of creation: the talk page has a section indicating which sections on individual chorale preludes are unwritten, i.e. empty shells. I have recently been creating new sections (BWV 611, BWV 632 and most recently BWV 621, still in process). Meanwhile the IP has made remarks completely tangential to that content -creation and indeed the content of the article. Without any concrete suggestions beyond removing one or two widely spaced wikilinks to Catherine Winkworth, he has made no positive suggestions about the article. Instead he has made a series of constantly shifting comments on the talk page, jumping from one point to another. None of them directly relates to the content being added at the moment. And none of it is sourced. Present and future content can be found in the two sources; when he was told that, he showed no interest in looking at the sources. At one stage he accused me of original research; he retracted that accusation when I reminded him of the rubric in the article explicitly naming the two principal secondary sources on which almost all the content is based.

He admitted that he has no access to either of the secondary sources. He did say that he had the 1933 Riemenschneider musical score. And that he also has the book of John Elliott Gardiner, "Bach: Music in the Castle of Heaven" which is about the cantatas. Neither of them is useful for the particular article.

The IP was given advice by User:Johnuniq—to go and edit somewhere else for a while while the article is under construction. He has ignored that advice. He has made very few edits to wikipedia. He has made a handful of edits related to classical or early music. Mathsci (talk) 03:08, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:69.165.196.103 - You cannot file a dispute resolution request at the dispute resolution noticeboard concurrently with filing a conduct thread here. Your request at DRN will be kept on hold until this thread is resolved. (It may then be activated or closed.) Robert McClenon (talk) 03:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wait, really? It's off-topic for this thread, but does that mean that attempting to shut down an ANI thread by attempting to connect it to an unrelated DRN thread is something that has happened before? I think I might have something to bring to ArbCom for an unrelated case, if that's the case. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Hijiri88 - You ask whether attempting to shut down an ANI thread by attempting to connect it to an unrelated DRN thread is something that has happened before. I am sure that any sort of game-playing in order to attempt to shut down an ANI thread has happened before. What actually happens is that a DRN thread can be shut down on account of an ANI thread. Maybe I misunderstood the question. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:06, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What Mathsci wrote is (once again, sadly) false. I haven't edited anything on the article itself (beside the few edits, that were simply formatting, that were reverted by Mathsci). I actually filed the DRN BEFORE (21:55 UTC, which is 30 minutes before) I was added here. Mathsci went here afterwards. The issue was never the books or the sources. I never actually even tried to edit the content of the analysis of the chorales on the page. The issue was formatting. Somebody, please tell me, since when do I need access to sources to edit formatting? Mathsci - Could you please stop trying to create a problem and instead cool down and try to make a solution? You attacked me repeatedly (including here) - with false statements - for example, I haven't edited the actual Orgelbuchlein page since the other user told me not to - also, I clearly MYSELF said that the Gardiner book was of no use - the issue was (or I tried to make it so, before you started talking about something else) formatting. If you disagree on that, state why clearly. I'm still a human being and the conduct of Mathsci is not very polite (this is not the first time, see his user talk page...).

Now the time for quotes: (from above) "suggestions beyond removing one or two widely spaced wikilinks to Catherine Winkworth" - It wasn't 1 or 2, but 16...

From the talk page Talk:Orgelbüchlein#NPOV_far_from_restored - "Mathsci said above "No you cannot discuss the article without the book. You don't seem to be interested in creating content; otherwise you would have acquired the book", but the issue is not all about those books. There may be other valid sources and besides issues about the appropriateness of the images, inclusion of hymn texts, etc. will not be solved by reference to the sources. Editors who have access to good sources are essential, but others may edit and discuss articles when they do not have access to those sources and core content creators don't own the article." (by Fences&Windows 12:02, 1 June 2016 (UTC))

idem, today, Mathsci: "If you don't have the sources, none of your personal comments are relevant." Talk:Orgelbüchlein#Issues_as_of_January_2017

"I have put the "in use" tag on the whole article since you edited an unfinished section." - see "Work submitted to Wikipedia can be edited, used, and redistributed—by anyone"

And now, back to what I wanted to say - I tried to talk of the formatting. Instead, every single time - I mean, look at the talk page - every single time - Mathsci instead kept mentioning how he was working hard to create content and that I was disruptive (remember - I actually only made those little edits I talked about - only once) and how I ABSOLUTELY needed to have to books to even dare put a comment on the talk page... Isn't the purpose of a talk page exactly to discuss the page and how to improve it -including issues like formatting- without disrupting the main article? Ok sorry it's 1 AM here... I'll continue my defense later. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 05:57, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• If there is an implied possible connection to Francis Schonken, the IP geolocates to Canada, and Francis says he lives in Europe, although he could be visiting Canada or have a meatpuppet or relative in Canada. That said, with less than 90 edits, the IP has posted on seven of the same pages that Francis has [42], with the majority (over 60%) of the edits being on the article and talkpage of Orgelbüchlein, the main target of Francis's harassment of Mathsci. They also clearly have an immense knowledge of obscure Wikipedia essays, guidelines, policies, and noticeboards and such, despite an extremely low edit count. And why they are suddenly taking an immense interest in a multitude of finer points about the Orgelbüchlein article is rather baffling. I would keep the IP on a short leash and admonish them that continued disruption on the article talk page -- shifting what they want to talk about, prolonging unfounded accusations, failing to make accurate or implementable edit requests, failing to hear responses, and so on -- will result in a block or a page ban. Softlavender (talk) 07:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I have been wondering who is behind the IP. Due to some recent on-wiki developments, my first thought was that the IP might be someone from Wikipediocracy hoping to get a reaction from Mathsci—a reaction that would later be used as evidence against him at ANI or Arbcom. However the simpler explanation is more likely—the IP is yet another example of the wisdom of the internet. I posted at the article talk that since Orgelbüchlein is being actively developed, it is pointless debating how many links should be used or whether particular passages have the right number of quotes. Those points are window dressing that come after significant development has finished. I am watching the page and my suggestion is that any commentary that is not for an actionable proposal regarding significant issues should be politely ignored. There are lots of other articles where the IP's expertise could be demonstrated and a running commentary on perceived formatting flaws is not needed. Regarding this report, unfortunately the IP's disruption is part of anyone can edit and is unlikely to reach a sanctionable level. Just ignore it. Johnuniq (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I presume you are using the phrase "the wisdom of the internet" ironically. And yes, I think there's generally no point in even replying to nonsense, especially if it is excessively drawn out or repeated, or constantly changes its tune, invokes every wikilaw under the sun, and/or runs to noticeboards. At worst the article itself can be semi-protected if the disruption moves back there. Softlavender (talk) 09:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am not, in any way, related to Francis Schonken. I'm a musician from Canada (so that's maybe why I edit articles about music...) who happened to stumble upon the Orgelbuchlein page, notice some issues, and since I saw that one editor seemed to be doing a lot of work on the article, took it to the talk page. Now, how is what I am saying nonsense? All I have said is verifiable and true if you look at the talk page - I brought the issue of formatting (I concede, it is a minor issue) in the hope the we could reach a consensus (since Mathsci had reverted my previous edits). It didn't work. Now I went to DRN in the hope that someone not involved would be able to help resolve the issue. I do not see how whatever I did is disruptive - I didn't edit the article after the reverts, since it clearly would only read to further reverts, and instead I kept the issue to the talk page. As such, I'll agree to stop posting on the Orgelbuchlein talk page if Mathsci agrees - as per his own talk page - to calmly resolve this current dispute and stop overracting. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 15:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The 5 edits of the IP to Die sieben Worte Jesu Christi am Kreuz show an expert editor creating forked content of translations in BWV 621. The IP knows about wiki-markup in foreign languages, e.g. {{lang|de|Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund}}, and writes edit summaries in German. This is not a new editor. The suggestion that after over 920 edits to Orgelbüchlein, some major secondary source might have been missed is completely untenable. As Softlavender has written, their editing conforms to WP:HOUND. Given the probable use of an IP to avoid scrutiny, the scale of their present disruption (the bogus request at WP:DRN) and their attempts here to continue that disruption/dissimulation, I think it would be reasonable to block the IP for some period. Mathsci (talk) 20:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I never suggested that you missed some major secondary source. Please, see that talk page. The 4 issues I mentioned were, in this order:
1. The purpose section, whose content was fine but needed possible to be expanded and written out as clear text, not as only a quote (again, I never questioned it's accuracy - only the format).
2. and 3. Formatting, per WP:OLINK and WP:SEAOFBLUE. Again, no need for reference to sources on that point at least.
4. Whether the inclusion of complete hymn texts was justified (an issue which had already been discussed and which didn't seem to reach consensus.
None of those issues require access to the sources Mathsci mentioned. I admit I did make a mistake by answering to your question about content without having access to the sources - which was a bad reaction on my part to the dispute we were having - that does not deserve a ban.

Now, your response, analyzed sentence by sentence: "The 5 edits of the IP to Die sieben Worte Jesu Christi am Kreuz show an expert editor creating forked content of translations in BWV 621." - It's clearly different content, the translation is not the same and it's clearly identified as being from another source - thus not forked content. Why the constant ad hominems? Good faith, please?

"and writes edit summaries in German." I wrote that one in German because the editor who put the language tag had, as edit summary, "deutscher", which is clearly German, so that is only good practice to make sure that it was understood.

"The IP knows about wiki-markup in foreign languages" - No I didn't, before clicking on {{lang}}, which was in the article, and reading the information there. See? No need for a university degree to understand that.

"As Softlavender has written, their editing conforms to WP:HOUND." - No. I have edited, indeed, according the the link provided - seven of the same pages as FS - including this page (strangely...), his talk page (to inform him of the DRN), the JS Bach talk page (for absolutely unrelated things), the Orgelbuchlein page (for apparently unrelated things), BWV 29 (for unrelated things, again), the DRN (for, as of yet, 2 unrelated topics - he hasn't yet responded to my DRN request because it's on hold) and, yes, the OB talk page (the only one we both edited recently) - he tried to contribute to the discussion and Mathsci instead attacked him and told him he was disruptive. Also, per this, Mathsci also edited some of the same pages as me...

"Given the probable use of an IP to avoid scrutiny," I am not using an IP to avoid scrutiny - I am from Canada and your "opponent" is from Europe (also WP:COLLAB) - I am trying to collaborate to solve an issue - why are you overreacting?

"the scale of their present disruption (the bogus request at WP:DRN)" - The dispute is legitimate, I tried talking things on the talk page but it didn't work, therefore I went for an uninvolved party to hope to resolve the situation about the formatting. Note that this is similar to other behaviour by Mathsci - accusing those he disagrees with of "causing disruption" - for example title=Talk%3AOrgelb%C3%BCchlein&type=revision&diff=758100954&oldid=758053274 here where he cleearly accuses FS of being disruptive even though the latter provided a valid point for the discussion.

"and their attempts here to continue that disruption/dissimulation," - I didn't bring the dispute here, Mathsci did by accusing me of being a sockpuppet, lacking experience, being from "Wikipediocracy" (whatever that is, doesn't sound nice).

@Mathsci: Peace Treaty Proposal So, I will try to end this reasonably and calmly and peacefully. Nobody is perfect. I probably have been overzealous on some issues regarding the OB page - which we discussed (without reaching consensus) on the talk page. To amend that, I propose that another, independent and uninvolved editor review the issue and determine whether there is indeed an issue with WP:OLINK.
Both of us could have better behaved ourselves on the talk page - I don't say that we are both equally to blame, but neither of us is blameless, for sure. My excuses. I do not recommend any course of action on this, as I'd rather leave that to somebody else.
I hope this is enough to solve this issue without resorting to further verbal abuse. Do you agree that we can come to resolve this without threatening bans or other overreactions? 69.165.196.103 (talk) 21:36, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Softlavender and Johnuniq have given an accurate assessment in this section of the editing by the IP. That the IP was tracking my edits while I was editing BWV 621 is also shown by their edits to the wikilink for Soprano clef in Clef, used twice in Orgelbüchlein. Johnuniq has suggested that the IP be ignored. Their request at WP:DRN, which involves Johnuniq, will therefore have to be removed. Mathsci (talk) 22:23, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

NO. The request at WP:DRN should not be removed, although it is on hold. Requests at WP:DRN should not be removed except in unusual circumstances as per talk page guidelines, such as if they are made by sockpuppets. The request at DRN is on hold; leave it on hold, please. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Robert McClenon has nevertheless removed the request at WP:DRN. Mathsci (talk) 07:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The IP is continuing their disruption.[43] As Johnuniq suggested, I will be ignoring their edits. Mathsci (talk) 22:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are chasing ghosts. WP:LETGO, for one. Second, there's absolutely no link between the soprano clef being used in BWV 621 and the good faith edit I made on the soprano clef section (have you even looked at what the edit was - besides the summary???) - you don't even have a history of editing "Clef".... While we're at it - ad absurdum - the soprano clef is used in the manuscript of every Bach cantata, therefore the edit I made on BWV 29, is, if we follow your line of reasoning, an attempt to disrupt you (note - this is irony). The edit I made on the talk page if FAR from being disruptive. Softlavender and Johnuniq could NOT have given an accurate assessment, because they seem to have based their understanding of the situation on the demonstrable exaggerated, proven false (see my preceding post) statements of Mathsci. I do not wish to be agressive - I didn't even start this ANI thread, I instead tried to go for DRN because that seemed more appropriate and less agressive, for one. WHY, why are you still clearly belligerent when I'm trying to solve the issue - I clearly am not intent in destroying you or the work you did or whatever. Actually, all of the edits I made to date on all articles (except the 3 or 4 on the OB, which you reverted for yet to be clarified reasons) have been constructive, content improving edits. Could we please stop this drama board discussion and just cool off? (note to admins: Please close discussion) 69.165.196.103 (talk) 23:25, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The probability that the text I was editing—"Da Jesus an dem Kreuze stund"—should suddenly appear in the IP's edits is zero. Likewise that the use of soprano clef on the Tabalatura image should suddenly appear in the IP's edits. Softlavender and Johnuniq have accurately described the IP's editing. The IP's response has been WP:IDHT. My steady editing of Orgelbüchlein continues (now starting BWV 612). Mathsci (talk) 00:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I first edited SWV 478 on January 13, but you first edited BWV 621 on January 14. Your claim is frivolous - cool down, for your own health, as per your own talk page: User_talk:Mathsci#Removing_someone_else.27s_survey_submission_in_an_ongoing_WP:RM.3F. The soprano clef claim is similarly not true. Why are you not remaining WP:CIVIL?

Ahem. I put an "in process" mark next to BWV 621 on the to-do list on the article talk page at 00:35 on 13 January[44] and started editing that part of the article at 01:00 with this edit.[45] The first link to Soprano clef in the article was here[46] at 10:02 on 8 January. The fact that the IP has been tracking my edits seems clear. Just above for example the IP decided to bring up a coronary problem that arose some time back, unrelated to anything here. Mathsci (talk) 08:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There was nothing uncivil about the comment immediately preceding yours, unless one considers "IDHT" to be uncivil, but the whole point of IDHT is that the user against whom it is targeted is ignoring others. You are therefore not the right person to say "my response has not been IDHT" -- that is for others to decide. Your grasping at various bits of alphabet soup like this is beginning to make you look very much like a wikilawyer, and I am beginning to think you should be blocked from editing. If you are right on the article content and Mathsci is wrong, the burden is on you to demonstrate that at the appropriate venue; don't base your ANI case on your supposedly being right about article content unless you are able to prove it. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:33, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The burden of proof is on Mathsci to prove his allegations. All my edits have been properly sourced, with references where appropriate. I edited SWV 478 before he even touched BWV 621, as I already said and is easily verifiable on the respective pages history. You are also mis-interpreting my response; I was proving that my recent edits have no link with the actions of Mathsci... Let's hope he doesn't find a way to link my recent edits on Ich weiß, daß mein Erlöser lebt... I referred to CIVIL because Mathsci made repeated personal attacks on me... To resolve this dispute, I will accept to not edit the Orgelbuchlein page (and, for the matter, the talk page) until such time as Mathsci completes the analysis of the remaining chorales. I just expect Mathsci will cool down - I have no interest in continuing this pitched battle. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 01:56, 16 January 2017 (UTC), edited 69.165.196.103 (talk) 02:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Closure

This thread has run long enough and it is probably time to close it as per User:Softlavender with a warning or warning. Robert McClenon (talk) 08:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Why is your comment sufficiently important as to need its own heading? Johnuniq (talk) 09:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mathsci: I'll amend the proposal above - as per the comment I made above, I will back off the Orgelbuchlein talk page if, in exchange, Mathsci agrees to let somebody else (who is uninvolved) come see the issue I mentioned and act/not act/do whatever he thinks right upon it. Hopefully this brings an end to this dispute we're having over a couple of links and we can all go back to being friends. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 15:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We don't make deals on Wikipedia. And beyond that, at least two uninvolved editors have already looked at your edits and deemed them disruptive. It's also very clear that you are an extremely experienced Wikipedia editor. Softlavender (talk) 01:15, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See my comments above... 69.165.196.103 (talk) 01:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Why did the IP open a DRN case on behalf of Francis Schonken [47], who is not party to the dispute (FS only made a single post to any of the article-talk threads in question -- a suggested translation format on 3 January [48], nothing more, 12 days before the DRN case was ever filed)? Why did the IP not file the case request on behalf of himself instead? The dispute revolves around the IP's numerous and varied and ever-changing requests on the article talk page from 1 January onwards: [49]. I suggest the case be thrown out as suspect and intentionally disruptive. (Here is the live link to the case [50].) It's also very obvious, what with his requested deals, the silly "Peace Treaty Proposal", and the DRN he filed on someone else's behalf, not to mention the circular and endlessly disruptive posts on the article talk page, that the IP is playing a game of what Floquenbeam would call "silly buggers". -- Softlavender (talk) 03:01, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I filed the proposal on my behalf, that is very clearly written: "Filed by 69.165.196.103 on 21:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)." FS is an involved user (by the fact, as you stated, he participated and the he was attacked by Mathsci for making a disruptive edit, [51]), so I added him. Your post is just short of being slanderous. My requests were simple, stable, and they did not change; here they are copied (again, you can go see on the original talk page [52]):
"1. The purpose section, whose content was fine but needed possibly to be expanded and written out as clear text, not as only a quote (again, I never questioned it's accuracy - only the format).
2. and 3. Formatting, per WP:OLINK and WP:SEAOFBLUE.
4. Whether the inclusion of complete hymn texts was justified (an issue which had already been discussed and which didn't seem to reach consensus.
I do not see why this battle must continue.69.165.196.103 (talk) 03:27, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Stop refactoring others' posts, as you did here. If you continue to do so, you may be blocked from editing. Softlavender (talk) 03:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You listed the "Users Involved" as "Mathsci, Francis Schonken" [53]. Francis, having only submitted a sample translation format (12 days beforehand, in a thread unrelated to the putative disputed issues), isn't involved, so he should not have been listed. The dispute, such as it is, is between you and Mathsci, and you didn't even list yourself. Softlavender (talk) 05:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I only removed the bold marking on the first part of your post as it clearly brings undue atttention to a false statement: if you the DRN thread carefully it becomes clear that I am filling on my own behalf and that the issue I am talking about is effectively the one between me and Mathsci, and that as per later amendments other possibly involved users were added (WP:DRN). 69.165.196.103 (talk) 12:23, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

IP, you're not helping yourself. I noticed it a while ago but wasn't going to bring it up until you did yourself: why are you making such a big-ass deal out of a few DABLINKs? It seems like you are deliberately trying to get under Mathsci's skin and to waste his time, and grasping for any excuse to do so. This is why I think you are either FS (who hasn't logged on in five days) or a friend of his. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's not true, here is your initial filing: [54] (I've listed it twice already, but if you want it again there it is). You plainly designated the two "Users Involved" as "Mathsci, Francis Schonken". Softlavender (talk) 13:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let's resolve this calmly. Here's my POV of what happened -
I was looking at the OB page and noticed that the translations of the chorales were not, in my opinion, good content (as can be seen in this thread [55]. Me and Mathsci had a, compared to this flame war, civil discussion, in which I ended conceding that the page in it's current format was the best that could be done; per the following quote: "Ok, I'll concede that we can't do anything about Christ ist erstanden because there doesn't seem to be a (good) translation that is in the public domain. As for In dulci jubilo, I'll concede because I can't find an elegant way to write what I want. There are some further issues with the page, but I'll take that into another discussion thread since this has gone long enough already, and it's about another subject. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 13:53, 4 January 2017 (UTC)"
Then, I went on and opened another discussion thread, which listed the four issues I mentioned, [56] and which I will again copy in the abbreviated form, as above:

1. The purpose section, whose content was fine but needed possibly to be expanded and written out as clear text, not as only a quote (again, I never questioned it's accuracy (beyond possibly requiring more than one source) - only the format).
2. and 3. Formatting, per WP:OLINK and WP:SEAOFBLUE. Again, no need for reference to sources on that point at least.
4. Whether the inclusion of complete hymn texts was justified (as opposed to only one or two verses)

I proceeded to implement part of them, but Mathsci reverted, stating "I have put the "in use" tag on the whole article since you edited an unfinished section." The discussion did not go much further, because Mathsci then made an issue out of, one, the form of the article (which I had never mentioned and which I sadly got distracted into, mea culpa) and, two, his hard work on the article (which I had previously acknowledged "2. Also, per WP:OWNER, you do not own this article and although you might feel possessive about it, that does not mean that I (or anybody else) is barred from contributing to it. Also, disagreements should be calmly resolved, without resorting to attacks or whatever else. So, in a nutshell, great contribution on the article as a whole. However, I am merely trying to propose improvements to details that you may have overlooked." from the talk page), and which, for clarity's sake, I do again: good work on the article so far, Mathsci.

Then, I got baited into talking about another detail I hadn't mentioned ([57]). I'll summarize the conversation; Mathsci wrote "I have the choice between quoting (2 pieces for the analysis of BWV 632) Which do you think is more appropriate and why?. I answered my honest opinion, and I somehow managed to slip in a comment about it being OR since Mathsci hadn't put in any inline citations for the matter. He thus corrected the issue by adding appropriate citations. The discussion, then, instead of focusing back on the issues I mentioned, went off topic on various personal comments and such. Since I clearly did not see a way how this could end on the talk page, I filed a notice on DRN (concerning the fact I didn't identify myself: User:69.165.196.103 does not exist so I questioned how to go on that matter - I decided into not adding a link, as I though it was pretty clear that the discussion was between me and Mathsci, with possible involvment by FS and Johnuniq (whose name I forgot to add)). Concurrently (since Mathsci talk page is protected, I could not modify it to notify him of the DRN), Mathsci filed this dispute here at ANI; putting this on the OB talk page "I have reported you at WP:ANI, Obviously if you don't access to the two main sources that I use to create the content on this article, I cannot see how you can discuss the content of the article in any substantial way." In my opinion, that is besides the point - the issue was never the sources or content directly related to the sources.

Now, as for the discussion here; I won't summarize it, you have it just above for your own eyes to read (and to analyze). Basically, Mathsci accused me of being a sockpuppet, harassing him, disregarding sources (even though, in my opinion, the issues I mentioned didn't need sources) and being generally disruptive (for example, ignoring Johnuniq's proposal to go edit elsewhere, an accusation which, you look at my edits since January 12 [58], is not exactly true). My defense, for all of those points, as can be seen in the comments above, is that they are unfounded, unproven accusations [59] which show signs of Mathsci overreacting. I already excused myself and provided many proposals to resolve this peacefully, including this (at the bottom of the diff) [60]; and this [61]; and this [62];

So here is my final say on this, I hope this will be enough to end this exaggerated dispute which is both my fault and that of Mathsci (albeit probably a lot of the blame falls on me for ignoring (and not knowing about) Mathsci's precedents with FS and getting involved in their grudge)). I excuse myself for the strife this has caused. As I already said, I will refrain from editing OB and it's talk page anymore. I could also prove that the sources I mentioned aren't totally irrelevant (and that some of the information within is actually relevant); but in the spirit of resolving this dispute (again, Mathsci said that I am seeking to anger him, but I do not wish to keep fighting), I will just stop and hope that the dust settles down - that this flame war ends without further harm. I invite Mathsci to answer if he believes that what I wrote is incorrect. Regards, from Canada. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 23:06, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article is a complex article which is complicated to edit, as a multimedia article with detailed musical commentaries. The IP has shown no interest at all in the content. He doesn't want to look at the sources. And he has made comments on the talk page which are completely tangential to the article. He has drawn attention to complete trivia (e.g. that Catherine Winkworth is linked several times). Softlavender has given her dispassionate opinion of all of this. Everything that she has written is 100% spot on. She has been very astute and perceptive. Likewise Johnuniq. The IP should address their comments. I agree with them. I have no specific comments on the above wall of text, except that it is tl;dr. Mathsci (talk) 00:05, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Removing [[ and </> ]] is not complicated, no matter what kind of article it is. Per the page you cite "Substituting a flippant "tl;dr" for reasoned response and cordiality stoops to ridicule and amounts to thought-terminating cliché. Just as one cannot prove through verbosity, neither can one prove by wielding a four letter acronym. When illumination, patience, and wisdom are called for, answer with them." If this is all you have to say, well then no further bad feelings. I will stop here, as I said in my "wall of text". I've seen enough, I don't have time to spend battling out over some stupid edit on Wikipedia with which you happen to disagree, I've got a life and work to do. THIS DISCUSSION CAN HEREBY BE CONSIDERED OVER. Regards, again, from Canada. 69.165.196.103 (talk) 00:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

EthiopianHabesha (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

The User:EthiopianHabesha is being disruptive on multiple pages related to Ethiopia. I was advised to take this issue to ANI at the COI board [63] He wants to censor material that portrays Abyssinians in a negative light and just recently blanked reliable sources, added by another user [64] Previous dispute resolution attempts have failed due to users nationalisic outbursts and difficulty with the english language [65]. He also made what appears to be threats of nationalistic violence on a users talk page [66] Can something be done about this user. Duqsene (talk) 23:46, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that I have found this editor to be problematic. I don't know whether the issue is primarily one of nationalistic combativeness or primarily one of lack of competence in English, although I see aspects of both, and which doesn't really matter. This editor attempted to state a case at the dispute resolution noticeboard, but was unable to state a case that volunteers could work with. As noted, this is not a conflict of interest issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:24, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Duqsene, in COI I explained clearly, that what you have accused me of saying "Amhara people do not exist" is not actually what I have said [67][68][69]. In that noticeboard you did not provide one diffs to support your claim of me saying "Amhara People do not exist" yet you dedicated that section, based on a false accusation, to explain how Oromos are oppressed by Amhara nationalist[70]. Not that it matters, I do not even belong to Amhara neither Tigray ethinicgroup. Anyways, I am very sorry Robert McClenon did not comment about this clear false accusation. And also I have been accused of "nationalistic outburst", another accusation that is not explained clearly i.e. not supported by diffs and explained to me clearly for which nationalistic group (that the accuser can define it) am being accused of defending for. @Admins, most of my arguments deal with presenting contents in an impartial tone per WP:IMPARTIAL, and to convince the editors to comply with this rule then I had to make a long arguments with these editors whom had several sockpuppets used to disrupt Ethiopia related articles. Some of the sockpuppets I used to argue with that are now blocked includes Otakrem,Zekenyan and Blizzio and also some other IP sockpuppets. Although some try to convince their POV that does not make sense by bullying and intimidation I prefer to convince them by bringing neutral reliable sources, although neutrality of sources is not necessary, so that we edit collaboratively and by consensus. Finally, please note that I have a hard time to reach consensus with Duqsene on the article Sultanate of Showa [71][72]. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 14:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't entirely understand. However, whether we can understand each other is part of the issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:26, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Robert McClenon, with respect what I was saying is: Duqsene in COI opened a section [73] claiming I have said "Amhara people do not exist" when I said it is not possible for Kingdom of Aksum (also known as Abyssinian Kingdom [74]) and Dʿmt to be ruled by Amharic Speakers because no linguist claimed for Amharic to exist before 1,000 AD. With respect please see Ethiopian semitic languages. Since no comment from you on this false accusation by Duqsene then I took it you also assumed I have said that and was wondering if you could please provide diffs. I will be very happy if we could focus on the content presented and there is no way I will accept Duqsene's argument if he could be able to provide one source, even if unreliable, showing me that Axum kingdom (Abyssinian kingdom) was ruled by Amharic speaking people also showing that the Abyssinian inhabitants of Axum kingdom spoke Amharic. That was what I was saying and I hope now it is clear. Thank you. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I still don't understand. It appears that the subject editor is angry that another editor said something that I can't find evidence that they said. Arguing over words that were not said is disruptive. Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed, as @Robert McClenon notes, we have a problematic editor. @EthiopianHabesha either does not understand wikipedia policies or interprets it from a particular point of view. Some evidence of disruptive behavior of EthiopianHabesha in Ethiopia-related articles since November 2016:

• Slow editwarring to remove sourced content and WP:RS, to restore unsourced content: 1 2 3 4. See @Doug Weller's intervention and edit summary.
• @EthiopianHabesha misrepresents or misunderstands then repeatedly invokes WP:ONUS, WP:IMPARTIAL, WP:QS, WP:EXCEPTIONAL, WP:ADVOCACY, WP:BURDEN etc in order to remove reliable sources published by Cambridge University Press etc sources, with the comment, "choosing sources you have to be carefull [sic] because there are also writers who write for their own agenda such as for ethnic nationalism, secionism [sic], advocacy, propaganda, divide and rule". EthiopianHabesha has invoked these policies disruptively and to support above edit warring: 5 e.g.
• Arguing in circles while ignoring wikipedia content policies. See this question to @EthiopianHabesha by @Doug Weller, non-responsive was the response of EthiopianHabesha.
• Insists that they understand policies and know how wikipedia works, nevertheless: 6
• Puzzling hints on my talk page on "fit for fighting"

Outside of Doug Weller's attempts to explain wiki policies patiently since November 2016, we have had a DRN case too with @EthiopianHabesha. No progress at or after DRN despite Robert McClenon's efforts. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:44, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The editor exhausted my patience and time and I had to give up. His invocation of our acryonyms suggests to me that he is using them as tools without fully understanding them, which might be a competence issue. Doug Weller talk 19:13, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, I have to concur with User:Ms Sarah Welch and User:Doug Weller that this editor has some sort of a competency problem, probably having to do with limited English, and that they should be advised to edit the Wikipedia in their first language, and that they need to be indefinitely blocked from editing the English Wikipedia because they have shown that they can't contribute constructively (even though we assume that they want to contribute constructively). Robert McClenon (talk) 03:19, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My limited involvement with this editor tends to support Robert McClenon's view. Buckshot06 (talk) 07:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Admins, please see the article I recently expanded and balanced: Ifat Sultanate article before it looks like this and now it looks like this. Here is the edit history. After the article is balanced, stories from all sides are presented and I beleive people were able to know new sourced information that they never known before. Based on my knowledge information disseminated by extrimists dominate while infromations disseminated by moderates and relevant experts on the topic which are written by highly educated neutral intellectuals who do not write for any agendas are usually avoided because their information is against extremists agendas. I am not defending any nationalistic group but here only just to let know wikipedia readers that there is also another information exists by sourcing contents based on wikipedia rule. If there are no editors who balances articles then wikipedia is likely going to be a tool used by editors who keeps on removing sourced contents which were added to balance views held by extremists. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 10:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@EthiopianHabesha: You have expanded the Ifat Sultanate article, but it suffers from the concerns Robert McClenon has mentioned to you several times over the last few months. I am delighted you added sources. But, the summary you added with this edit, for example, is not a faithful summary of pages 42-45 of the source, it is POV-y. It does not fairly or accurately summarize Pankhurst, rather your summary seems to filter out and reflect your concern above, "information disseminated by extrimists [sic] dominate while (...)". That is the persistent problem. The evidence repeatedly suggests that your aims here are not to build an encyclopedia according to community agreed content guidelines, but to fight and censor whatever bothers you by invoking acronyms such as WP:IMPARTIAL, etc. That you exhausted Doug Weller's patience, one of the most patient admins and policy-experienced contributors we have, is not a good sign. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch, it would have been helpful if you could indicate the sentence you were talking about. I guess what you are talking about was the sentence begining with "Ifat was finally defeated by Emperor.....". Please see and it was added by other editors and was sourced with "The Glorious Victories, p. 107". The last paragraph was also added by other editors. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I meant the whole thing you added. See the link above. I have started cleaning up the copyvio, use of a source which copied wikipedia (which you did not add), etc. This is not that article's talk page. So let us skip it. It is irrelevant to the OP case filed by @Duqsene, or the issues raised above. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@EthiopianHabesha, you have said you want a "balanced" article several times on multiple pages, however your edits prove the opposite. This addition by you, which was corrected by Sarah, misinterpreted the citation to put the blame on Egyptians rather then Ethiopians/Amda Seyon. [75] Do you prefer it to be balanced only when Abyssinians are represented in a negative light? Duqsene (talk) 09:44, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Admins please please please save the Ifat sultanate article from being used to attack me. The recent edit made by Ms Sarah is just to prove my work is bad and now the scholars work is being paraphrased out of context. Out of the many, let me just explain one of them. When the source said the conflict was precipitated by the Egyptian Sultan (by encouraging the Sultan of Ifat to seize the envoy of emperor Amde Tsion, while on his return from Egypt after giving a letter containing a threat) as can be seen here, in the article Ms Sarah added "it was triggered by Amda Seyon I" as can be seen here (the second sentence under "Conflict with Christians" section). Ms Sarah again ignored the most important part of the letter sent to the Egyptian sultan saying Amde Tsion will "tamper the Nile" if he does not stop perscuting the Christians of Egypt as can be seen here, and this is not included but only the threat on neighbouring muslims (which I think is not the primary concern for Egypt) is included when tampering the Nile is the primary concern of Egypt (based on the scholars opinion) since without Nile there are no Egyptian people. This very important part of the letter was deliberately ignored by MS Sarah simply to show my work is bad, and if user is trying to improve the article then how is it fair to ignore this?

With respect, Ms Sarah Welch can you please clarify on:

1)Why you said "it was triggered by Amda Seyon I" when the scholar said it was precipitated by the Egyptian Sultan, contorary to this?

2)Why not include the primary concern for Egypt, tampering with the Nile, as explained in the source here and why make it look like as if the Egyptian Sultan is very much concerned with muslims of Ethiopia than the Egyptian people who can not live without Nile?

If there are no editors pointing out this kind of clear issues and debating with MS Sarah to convince one another then I am realy worried how Wikipedia articles are going to be. — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

EthiopianHabesha and Duqsene: I just started working on that article, am not done (EthiopianHabesha: please check the source again). If you have concerns, let us start a discussion on the article's talk page. This is not the right forum to begin discussing that article, by either of you. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:20, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch, the one I quoted was from your work finalised yesterday on 16 January and still today it is the same [76]. With respect, I think why did that is deliberately but not because you did not finalised editing that part. Thanks, EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ms Sarah Welch, the source said "Fear that the Ethiopians might tamper with the Nile was nevertheless to remain with Egyptians for many centuries"[77] clearly indicating that the Egyptian Sultan (who precipitated the conflict between the Christians and Muslims) was also worried this might be a reality, eventhough in todays scholars opinion Ethiopia did not have that technological capacity at that time. Why not also include this quotation in the inline citation which is just added today? — EthiopianHabesha (talk) 16:38, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I will explain here, and let us discuss it further there please. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:47, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal

I hesitate in supporting an indef ban for EthiopianHabesha, but something needs to be done given their conflicts with Duqsene and many others over many months. Perhaps we can start with a 3 month block from wikipedia, and 12 months sanction from Ethiopia-Somalia-Horn of Africa space articles, or something reasonable, and let the articles in this conflict-prone space to evolve. Perhaps we should also start an arb process, and add Ethiopia-Somalia-Yemen-Horn of Africa space articles under WP:ACDS. @EthiopianHabesha: Please do consider Robert McClenon's suggestion that you consider contributing to wikipedia articles in another language. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:50, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I respectfully disagree with User:Ms Sarah Welch who recommends a time-limited block. I will point out that indefinite does not equal infinite, and will state that, in my opinion, an indefinite block is needed, that is, a block that continues until the subject editor can compose an unblock request on their talk page, in English, that can be understood as showing that they understand that the original block was for both poor English and combativeness. If we only give this editor a three-month block, it may be no different when they come off block. If we give them an indefinite block, and they request an unblock in good Commonwealth English in two weeks, that is even better (although I am not optimistic). Robert McClenon (talk) 19:04, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It might not be unreasonable to perhaps suggest to the editor that he seek some form of mentorship, preferably from someone who might know whichever language he is most familiar with, Ethiopian, Ge-ez, or whatever it is. John Carter (talk) 22:24, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objection to any form of mentorship for this editor if the editor will agree to it. I will be satisfied if the mentor writes the unblock request and states the terms of the mentorship, as long as the unblock request is in what the community here considers to be standard written English. Unfortunately, I have found that combative who have a problem with their English are also combative about insisting that their English is good. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:35, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have no objections to these proposals. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaning towards User:Robert McClenon's suggestion to block the user indefinitely. I feel User:Ms Sarah Welch's proposal of a time limit block will bring us back here, as the user still seems oblivious to his disruptive editing. Mentorship is a good idea, granted with a clause of strict following. Duqsene (talk) 08:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Relationship to other active cases

There is a related ARB case that just been filed by an editor who registered their account few days ago, on January 10 2017. EthiopianHabesha is one of the named parties. I am not sure if that ARB case will get accepted, how or if it impacts this case, but FWIW. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've just had a quick look at that case (which has now been declined) and it seems quite complicated (I don't understand what the supposed libel issue is, for instance), so apologies if I have the wrong end of the stick, but the claims being made about the applicability of BLP policy to large groups are reminiscent of a now topic-banned editor, Middayexpress, who used to make similar claims in this area. Robert McClenon might well remember the Middayexpress case, but for others, the final AN/I discussion that resulted in the topic ban is at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive887#WP:NPA breech following NPOV, THIRDPARTY breeches. Middayexpress eventually quit Wikipedia promising to recruit new editors from the Horn of Africa to carry on their work. Given the similarity of some of the arguments being made in this case to those employed by Middayexpress, it might be worth investigating possible links further. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not again!?! The Horn of Africa has been an area of battleground nationalistic editing for a long time. Unlike some other real war zones, it hasn’t gone to the ArbCom to have ArbCom discretionary sanctions imposed. However, I urge the community to deal with this particular combative English-challenged editor (EthiopianHabesha) without regard to other combative editors. (By the way, the ArbCom case hasn't been declined; it is still in the process of being declined.) Robert McClenon (talk) 18:04, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, sorry - I'm not familiar with how ArbCom works, and took an editor's opinion that the case should be declined as a statement that it had been declined. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:18, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I am requesting an admin consider a rangeblock for 46.233.112.* (I think that's the same as 46.233.122.0/24). There's bit repeated disruption by this range on cartoon and television related articles since December. (See edits in this range since 01 December 2016 here). This behavior is similar to a previous IP hopper who I'd been tracking as long term abuse (see User:EvergreenFir/socks#British). IPs in this range have also been editing on User:FestonAero/sandbox, though it's unclear to me if the user is the same as the IPs. Below is a table of the recent IPs within the range.

EvergreenFir (talk) 21:55, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The sandbox edits are probably just the registered user editing logged out accidentally. It happens. I see other non-vandal edits on this range, too – mostly copy edits. Maybe page protection would be a viable alternative? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 03:59, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Which ever folks are more comfortable with. Just noticed a pattern of abuse over a month from a narrow range so thought I'd ask. Page protection works too. I'll keep an eye on the range of that's the case to make sure they don't expand to other pages. EvergreenFir (talk) 06:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it's certainly tempting to do a range block, but there are enough constructive edits that they give me pause. Maybe someone else will chime in and say that I'm being too cautious. I'm obviously not an expert on this stuff; I've only been an admin for 10 days. But, anyway, thanks for spotting and combating this vandalism; it's a mostly thankless job. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@NinjaRobotPirate: would you kindly semi protect the pages the IPS are targeting? The vandalism is continuing. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

List of Peppa Pig episodes was already protected by Ferret for a month. I protected List of Bob the Builder episodes for a week. Are there others that need protection? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good for now. Thank you! EvergreenFir (talk) 09:21, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

An editor using IPs (with some repetition over time) has been vandalizing, trolling and, when blocked, evading blocks. The user tends to latch on to a few ideas for some time before shifting focus. Past and current interests have been Vi Hart, Q*bert, penis size (in various articles), Wikipedia:Wikipediholism test, claims that various things are banned or illegal (dominoes, numerous common numbers, Tetris), etc. While roughly 3/4 of their edits are or seem to be constructive (often dealing with geometry, coding and such), the rest are either unequivocally vandalism and/or trolling or indicate a WP:CIR problem. In the past two years, they have been blocked at least 20 times and evaded most of those blocks immediately. Has this been a registered account, they would have been indefed quite some time ago.

Vandalism, trolling or CIR, etc.: Special:Contributions/108.66.234.192, [[78]], [79], [80], [81], [82], [83], [84], [85], [86], [87], [88], [89], [90], [91], [92], [93], [94], [95], [96], [97], [98], [99] (see also Talk:Tetris#Legality), [100], [101], [102], [103], [104], [105], [106], [107], [108], [109], [110], [111], [112], [113], [114], [115], [116], [117], [118], [119], [120], etc.

Known prior blocks withing the past two years: 99.101.126.233, 108.71.122.12, 99.106.226.107, 99.104.4.100, 108.65.83.165, 99.101.126.89, 99.101.127.31, 108.66.234.192, 99.101.114.58, 99.101.112.238, 108.71.122.41, 108.71.120.222, 108.71.121.129, 108.71.120.43, 108.65.83.222, 108.65.81.159, 108.66.234.227, 108.65.81.68, 108.65.81.68.

Though the user's IP changes frequently, it is sometimes kept for a few days. I have identified roughly 100 IPs used over two years with perhaps a dozen of them being used in two time frames separated by several months. - SummerPhD^v2.0 23:18, 14 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As the editor has been responding (though not constructively) on one of the IP talk pages, I have notified them of the discussion there.

While this is obviously a dynamic IP (often "helped" along to avoid a block), the reuse of several of the IPs and apparent rarity of other editors on those IPs seems to indicate there would be limited collateral damage from a range block. - SummerPhD^v2.0 02:40, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I took a look at User:SummerPhDv2.0/Wikipediholism trolling. It looks like the recent IP addresses used are:

• 108.65.80.0/22
• 108.66.232.0/22
• 108.71.120.0/22

There are also some older ones. On 99.101.112.0/22, the last activity seems to be around October 2016 in this edit. 99.104.4.0/22 and 99.106.224.0/22 don't seem to have any recent activity in the past year. I think a range block is doable on the first three. Most of the edits on these ranges fit the profile of someone obsessed with Wikipediholism, dominoes, Tetris, and penises. However, I'd feel better if someone double-checked my work. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 14:56, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did not necessarily make some of these edits. 108.66.233.174 (talk) 15:21, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the Genghis Khan, Motion picture content rating system, and UTF-32 stuff is also you? NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 15:36, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You did "not necessarily" make them? A number of your comments seem to be carefully constructed. Rather than saying you were not blocked and that you did not evade blocks, you stated that IPs are sometimes incorrectly accused of socking. Please state unequivocally which edits, if any, you did not make. Otherwise, it would seem that all of the vandalism shown is yours. - SummerPhD^v2.0 15:48, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is that I did not make some of those edits. This leads to confusion, and we can't tell whether to block or not. 108.66.233.174 (talk) 22:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You still have not answered the question. Which of the forty or so edits identified as vandalism above, if any, are you saying you did not make? (I assure you there are at least a hundred more, with a tiny sampling linked from User:SummerPhDv2.0/Wikipediholism_trolling.)

You also did not answer NinjaRobotPirate's question: is the Genghis Khan, Motion picture content rating system, and UTF-32 stuff also you?

Also, while this discussion continues, please stop adding "information" based on your obsession with penis size.[121] As there are significant questions regarding your truthfulness, I will continue to revert any and all unsourced edits. Grayfell seems to be following similar thinking. - SummerPhD^v2.0 00:20, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I did not make the edits referring to geometry or coding. 108.71.121.28 (talk) 00:58, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The edits under Special:Contributions/108.71.120.43, Special:Contributions/108.66.233.169, Special:Contributions/108.71.120.245, Special:Contributions/108.71.123.175, Special:Contributions/108.71.120.222, Special:Contributions/108.65.81.159, Special:Contributions/108.65.82.240 and numerous others strongly suggest that you really aren't very good at lying. - SummerPhD^v2.0 01:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, since the disruption seems to continue (including edit warring to blank an article), and nobody has objected, I'm going to do the three range blocks above. Because there are some constructive edits coming from this range occasionally, I'll start off short – just two weeks, which I think is lenient given the long-term trolling. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:09, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Last night I removed a {{prod}} tag from 2014 Street Child World Cup. This morning, I wake up to find three AfDs of stubs I wrote, by User:Sportsfan 1234 in retaliation for my having removed the {{prod}} tag. As my own talkpage is an answering machine, I cleared those messages. Within minutes User:Sportsfan 1234 popped up again accusing me of disruptive editing. I cleared it off with language that, in full disclosure, I am well-aware may WP:BOOMERANG me and which violates WP:CIVIL but does not violate WP:NPA. Within minutes User:Sportsfan 1234 popped up again, again knowing that he is not welcome on my talkpage.

Diffs

• [122] 12:12, January 14, 2017 replacing the prod tag I removed. Policy would dictate AfDing rather than retagging.
• mine [123]21:40, January 14, 2017 my re-removal of the tag per template "If this template is removed, do not replace it."
• [124] 13:27, January 14, 2017 his very next edit was the first of 3 retaliatory AFDs
• [125] 13:30, January 14, 2017 3 minutes later, the second of 3 retaliatory AFDs
• [126] 13:32, January 14, 2017 2 minutes later, the third of 3 retaliatory AFDs
• [127] 21:44, January 14, 2017 templating me for "Disruptive editing" when I had clearly stated my policy-based reason for removing the prod tag the second time, in my edit summary
• mine [128] 21:46, January 14, 2017 very clearly delineating that his comments are unwanted on my talkpage, with language that I am well-aware may WP:BOOMERANG me and which violates WP:CIVIL but does not violate WP:NPA
• [129] 21:49, January 14, 2017 templating me for "Using inaccurate or inappropriate edit summaries.", by this point clearly Wikihounding me, any rational editor would have left it alone by now, I certainly would have. My summary was neither inaccurate, nor by that time inappropriate.
• mine [130] my explaining that my previous summary does not violate WP:NPA

I seek 2 things here-I seek a contact ban for User:Sportsfan 1234 from contacting me, and for the retaliatory AFDs to be voided. Whether the articles should be AfDd should be left to an uninvolved party.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 02:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First of all you shouldn't be removing prod tags without using an edit summary or fixing the issue at hand. Second of all, you can see my recent edit history has been to propose articles (a lot of them actually) for deletion. It is inappropriate to tell someone to f off in an edit summary. If anything you should be reprimanded for civility issues. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 03:10, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also of note, this user can be accused of hounding as well, after I had voted to delete an article he started [[131] is when the chain above began. For a user who has limited to almost non-existent sport editing the removal of the speedy deletion template without a justified reason to me seems like this user went through my edits to target my edits. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 03:28, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

According to WP:PROD, "Any editor (including the article's creator) may object to the deletion by simply removing the tag; this action permanently cancels the proposed deletion via PROD." No edit summary or other edit is required. Jacknstock (talk) 04:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sportsfan 1234: To be clear, are you saying it is a coincidence that you nominated these three articles for deletion straight after the "Street World Cup" PROD tag was removed? -- Euryalus (talk) 09:08, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• @Sportsfan 1234: Please read WP:PROD and highlight where it says that a PROD nomination may not be removed without leaving an edit summary or fixing any underlying issues. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:00, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• I'd just point out that the two lines of prose (the rest is sports results) in the 2014 Street Child World Cup article are in fact a copyright violation to boot. Whilst no-one is required to explain the removal of a PROD, from an experienced editor I would at least expect at least an edit-summary, especially for an article as poor as that one. Black Kite (talk) 14:05, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@User:Euryalus I'd say yes, because one article led to another (I usually open 20+ articles at the same time that are similar in nature to gauge their notability). @User:Boing! said Zebedee, there might not be a specific line saying that, but you would expect an experienced editor to make at least an edit summary, especially considering User:Black Kite's comments. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 15:09, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, an edit summary is good, but that is very different from your false assertion that "you shouldn't be removing prod tags without using an edit summary or fixing the issue at hand". And if you did not understand why the PROD was removed, all you had to do was ask. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)@Black Kite: My very next edit [132] was on the article's talkpage, it was clear to anyone who looked that I was not (and historically am not) a drive-by tagger. Now, the copyright violation is something else, but that is not why we are here, wasn't stated in the prod tag, and is not now a tag on the article. Happy to fix that up now.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:13, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Black Kite: Fixed that copyvio, please have a look.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:19, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Sportsfan 1234 have been in at wp:AN for a wp:PROD related reason less than a moth ago (archived: wp:AN/Mass_PRODing). Also, they have made a lot of deletion nominations since late December (see: contributions - page creations on WP namespace). Most of these are mass nominations themselves, mostly of the kind of "<athletes> in <team> at <competition> in <year>". If the articles created by Kintetsubuffalo's were of that kind, I would bet it was a coincidence, yet this articles are all related to something different, girl/boyscouts, so... I don't know. A couple of things I do know. or believe to know: First, if someone removes a PROD tag, do not revert, instead either give up or go to AfD - a summary is not mandatory (but should have been provided, as for any edit, more so in this cases); second, foul language does not help. Ever. I know. I've been on both sides of it. But if it is only once in a loooooong while, we better let it go, almost everyone gets heated up once in a while. That is, if both users cool of and disengage, I see no reason to take any action. As a side note, and though I tend to agree that most of the sports articles mass nominated for deletion are probably better of deleted than not, I whish Sportsfan 1234 would make less of them - or proceed to updating the natability criteria based on these - as this is closing in on disruptive. Nabla (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC) PS: corrected above: ANI to AN, and date. Nabla (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, it's not as cut-and-dried as "if both users cool off and disengage", and there is indeed reason to take action. None of my edits created retaliatory and time-wasting AfDs. Request admin void three related AfDs Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/South Sudan Girl Guides Association/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Association of Top Achiever Scouts/Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stowarzyszenie Harcerstwa Katolickiego Zawisza as WP:WIKIHOUNDING by User:Sportsfan 1234. "Cooling off" does not address that.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 06:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When one editor finds that some other editor has created one article of dubious notability and dubious copyright status, it is completely normal for the first editor to look through the contributions of the second looking for more of the same. In no way is this an inappropriate instance of hounding, and it is completely legitimate for Sportsfan to have AfD'd these articles. Kintetsubuffalo, please stop your dubious wikilawyering in an attempt to save your dubious contributions. —David Eppstein (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your first claim is factual-when finding a questionable article it is not uncommon to check other works by the same author. But given that several editors above do not believe it's a coincidence, nor do I, that he would have to search through my 170,000 edits and pick one from 15 October 2016, 25 October 2016, and 2 November 2016, about a religious Scout org, a national Scout org, and a Scout recognition org, which in no way follows his editing pattern, right on the heels of me making an edit he didn't like, I'm gonna go ahead and say no to your snarky "please". Two admins, by the way, jumped in and defended those so-called "dubious contributions" in the AfDs before I even saw them [133], [134], so I think we can dispense with your snide comment, which itself is unbecoming an admin.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:50, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They're much less far down the list if one looks only at page creations in article space that are not redirects. —David Eppstein (talk) 03:56, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And the "coincidental" timing? Also, regarding your mischaracterization "in an attempt to save your dubious contributions", I clearly stated above, from the beginning "Whether the articles should be AfDd should be left to an uninvolved party." Do you have a dog in this fight?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 04:03, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So this all started when Gamingforfun365 nominated Crispy Gamer for FAC. I nominated the article for GAN and it passed. It was passed by Gamingforfun365 himself and I was very much bothered by this since I didn't intend to nominate it for FAC as I believed it didn't meet the criteria for a Featured Article. It eventually was closed due to Gaming not being a major contributor of the article. But at one point he says "I am actually having fun from how lousy this discussion is going". I brought it up to him on his talk page, where he eventually deleted it.

It gets really complicated as in one thread on the Video games project, which was originally titled "Crispy Gamer now FAC", where he announced that he didn't do any fact-checking in his GAN reviews. Also making remarks on my talk page, also bringing up the fact-checking issue and the repeated commenting he makes. I ask Gamingforfun365 three times to stop posting on my talk page and he ignores it twice.

Then there is this thread, originally titled "Gamingforfun365 quits as a GAN reviewer". I overall find his comments to be non-productive and disruptive. I honestly don't know what to do since this whole drama is complicated to explain the best one can. I just think there needs to be an uninvolved administrator to help out with the issues. GamerPro64 05:41, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Normally we expect some effort to resolve the situation before reporting here. Anyway Wikipedia:Don't feed the divas may be applicable. If Gamingforfun365 passed a bunch of GAs without actually doing the checks required, then they can all be delisted. It sounds like someone is not taking things very seriously. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 07:34, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, the original poster does have a right to bring this issue up to the ANI. In fact, I am thinking about either posting to that closed thread and saying that I apologize for being closed-minded and that I in fact am confirmed as a minor editor or deleting that thread and starting a new one that states that I apologize for not listening and that I in fact am only a minor. Is that all right? Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 17:30, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I closed out the discussion at the WikiProject level so we could stop with these stupid discussions. I don't see any actual issues persisting here if you'd both just stop self-indulgent discussions about yourselves. Go out and edit some different articles, away from one another. Problem solved. Sergecross73 msg me 17:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Already deleted now. Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 18:43, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind. Am I not supposed to delete even embarrassing and disruptive threads that I have made? Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 18:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's a project page, not your talk page. You can't unilaterally decide to blank a discussion and other editors comments because you didn't like them. It should be archived. --The1337gamer (talk) 18:55, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As you've been informed already, archiving is preferred. I've archived them for you though, as one was closed and one was stale for about a week. Sergecross73 msg me 19:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

His deletionist tendencies for discussions showing him in a bad light is very much troublesome. Trying to delete threads that usually show him to be doing things wrong and never learning from his mistakes. GamerPro64 19:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For some reason, I still seem confused as to whether I really do WP:OWN the threads that I have made. I tend to think that I may delete my threads just because I am their original poster, and, while I do learn from my mistakes, I am uncomfortable with sharing them with others (unless it is a good time). Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 20:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, I should take a break from posting in the talk pages about video games. In other words, a topic ban on the English Wikipedia may do. Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 20:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Youre free to delete discussions on your talk page, but elsewhere, unless it's blatantly bad (personal attacks, WP:BLP violations, WP:NOTAFORUM violations), you shouldn't be deleting discussions. Sergecross73 msg me 22:50, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Before I go to bed, I have some things to say:

As for the "how lousy" comment, although I do admit that it does hint that I was being disruptive on purpose, what I was trying to say is that it was distracting me from actually improving the encyclopedia. I am sorry for my word choice. If I really had enjoyed being disruptive, I would not have posted in the first place. As for trying to badge an article with an FA star, I guess that, as I have intense focus on a limited number of subjects (something that I have always been born with as a result of autism), I care far more about trying to make a few articles become top-quality than about making many articles become decently written, and Crispy Gamer was (and still is by the time of this post) one of them. As for listening to others, I guess that I could stand receiving constructive criticism as long as they are not emphasized. As for "owning" the threads that I have made, I would definitely obey if I were told by an administrator this: "Keep or archive threads that you have made on talk pages other than your user talk page, or I will block you for one week."; that last part right there would definitely make me stop. Lastly, I would like to apologize for the possible disruption, for I seem to have focused more upon making a few articles become badged with a star than upon making so many articles decently written, but that is my preference of editing: to make top-quality content and not bringing low-quality articles to just mid-quality. Once again, I apologize. Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 04:52, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"I don't see any actual issues persisting here if you'd both just stop self-indulgent discussions about yourselves." GamerPro64, I will take 100% of the blame, as it is not your fault and I am the villain, and if it really is better for me to take a break from the English Wikipedia, I would accept receiving a block. Gamingforfun³⁶⁵ 23:32, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe either of you have handled this well. This didn't require an ANI case, (it almost certainly will be closed something to the capacity of "not actionable, but please both of you stop these discussions") and you shouldn't need to announce your every new intention, or need a block to motivate yourself to change. Stop talking about yourselves and each and just go edit somewhere uncontentious away from each other. Sergecross73 msg me 23:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, sorry for bugging you guys, but it's look the guy behind this IP address (who been blocked a few days ago) is making the same disruptive edits as before, but using another IP address, he made these edits here in the Views article just recently. You can see the edits look very similar as the other IP, such as unnecessary linking phases and bad grammar. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 02:21, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi there, TheAmazingPeanuts. In looking strictly at the diff you showed (which shows all 16 revisions at once), some of the changes he or she made do seem to improve the syntax of the article. While I can't speak for all of them, I think these can probably be addressed through the normal editing process. Insofar as it may be the same IP as the one recently blocked, I'd advise assuming good faith, and if disruption continues, report either back here or (if it is vandalism) to WP:AIV. Let me know if I'm missing something; nothing here seemed malicious. Thanks, Go Phightins! 15:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Go Phightins!: Yes, some of the edits may help improve the article, but however these IPs unnecessary linking phrases like this and unnecessary changing up bits of text, like in this article here. These kind of edits have been reverted by several other editors, such as Koala15, Kellymoat and Nickag989, Nickag989 has left a message on one of the IPs talk page about WP:MoS, but whoever it is ignored the message and keep continue making the same disruptive edits to Wikipedia, I asked other editors who work on articles based on albums about these edits, editors like Ss112 and Dan56 agreed that these edits are unnecessary and doesn't help improve the article at all, it only make it hard to read for some, and don't follow Wikipedia's Manual of Style. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 14:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

OK, well if the disruptive editing from this new IP continues, I suggest again trying to engage with respect to the MOS, and if that proves fruitless, you can report here or potentially at AIV. Go Phightins! 00:37, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Go Phightins!: Well I think it would be pointless to report the matter at AIV because it for vandalism, mostly the edits are aren't that bad, but however most of the edits are unnecessary and it does not make an improvement to the article. I keep an eye for more disruptive editing from this IP, and I will report the issue again if this keep happening. TheAmazingPeanuts (talk) 23:13, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Starting in mid-December, Lx 121 has raised a number of complaints on the talk page of Atrocities in the Congo Free State (a Good Article since September 2016). Initially, he/she claimed that the nationality of cited historians should be highlighted in the article but has widened the dispute to a dozen aspects of the article which he/she considers "bullshit". When some of the demonstrably false claims made are disproved (the absence of Congolese historians) he/she merely changes his/her argument. At the start of the dispute, he/she began to accuse me of "pushing an agenda" attempting "to minimize negative coverage of the belgian colonisers". On 28 December, he/she wrote:

i'm [sic] getting just a little bit TIRED of piron REPEATEDLY misrepresenting & ignoring points raised in this discussion.

& @ this point the only agf-reason left to explain the user's doing so is to assume that the user is having some problem with the reading & comprehension of the text? or maybe i [sic] can be "charitable" & pretend that biron [sic] was just reading too quickly? but that really is the last thread of agf here.

otherwise, it appears to be a deliberate tactic by the user, to obfuscate the matters being discussed.

When other users became involved in the discussion at my request, Lx ignored their comments. In his most recent comment (14 Jan), Lx wrote: "if this article was about nazi atrocities in ww2, instead of belgian colonies in the congo, you would be shut down as a holocaust denier/minimizer by now", effectively accusing me of being a negationist as a result of being personally "pro-Belgian". Instead of seeking consensus or responding to the other comments by other users, Lx writes "your sheer, impenetrable, {wikt|intransigence} [sic] has exhausted any reasonable agf here." Lx's comments are often quite incoherent streams of consciousness and seem to be becoming increasingly so as the discussion progresses. They are also becoming increasingly belligerent. Lx apparently has a history of similar confrontations in other topics, most recently in December. I had hoped that more users would comment in the discussion but, unfortunately, WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo has few active users and so the discussion has become increasingly confrontational. I have been editing on Wikipedia for several years and I have never seen personal attacks of this genre before. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:13, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I really have a hard time understanding

how a user can edit Wikipedia for ten years

and still somehow think it's appropriate

to separate nearly every clause in a comment

by a paragraph break

at times making a comment a page or more long

and rendering them barely readable. TimothyJosephWood 13:20, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That gives me an idea. Let's require all ANI posts to be haiku from now on. EEng 14:54, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ugh. That's the worst I've seen since Enkyo2 (talk · contribs) (don't ask what reminded me of him). If Lx 121 doesn't explain himself and, more importantly, cut it out, he should be blocked (unless it can be demonstrated that this is localized to one article, topic are or dispute with one user, but that really seems unlikely). Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:30, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ok clarification please? are we criticizing me for my style of writing comments? or for my actions?

as regards my actions: i have VERY carefully avoided any remarks about this editeor as a person.

i don't care about this editor "as a person"; what i care about is the quality of the work.

& to put it very bluntly, after a very long, & fruitless "agf" on its talk page, this editor has written an apologist piece of shit.

the author has gone out of his way to minimise, to downplay, to reduce casualty estimates, to euphemise, & to excuse & deny belgian responsibility for any of the actions.

the author has cherrypicked their sources, & been highly selective in the material to use, even from thse sources; & ALL of it has been in the direction of downplaying the severity, & belgian/european colonial responsibility.

AND the author has reverted multiple other editors who attempted to revise the text.

over the course of several weeks of interaction this editor has been COMPLETELY INTRANSIGENT & absolutely 'impenetrable to any alterations to their text.

i'm going to rfc it, & aside from continuing to add sources, i'm walking away.

if anybody wants to suggest we delete the article, or merge it back into the main (since, in its present form, it has VERY little of substance to add to the subject) count me as a "yes" vote.

if anybody wants to nominate this piece of crap for "featured" (or for "promotion"); count me as "roflmao"

Lx 121 (talk) 04:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

ALSO: the "complaining" user has misrepresented my position on the article.

from the start i stated that i found the article was nnpov. the lack of congolese sources was one of my objections; it was not the only one. i also objected, from the start, to this user's actions in reverting every change made to the tone of the text, by any editor, on the flimsiest rationales.

since the user posted this here, they have again reverted. this time the "objectionable material" was a period photograph of mutilated congolese children. which, contrary to the claims made by the user, was not part of the "disputed" content, & should have been a non-controvertial change & improvement, IF we assume this user is "acting in good faith". dif link pending Lx 121 (talk) 04:41, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

& here we go, this is the "good faith" edit reverting the lede photo from period documentation of mutilated congolese children, to belgian king leo; & completely removing the historical image from the article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Atrocities_in_the_Congo_Free_State&type=revision&diff=760164968&oldid=760099974

because, apparently any change to the article is now to be "disputed" by this editor; especially anything that might alter the carefully-contsructed tone of their coverage. Lx 121 (talk) 04:48, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

final point -- in response to the original editor's claims, i have not "ignored" other editor's comments. i have, in fact, responded to each of them. & i have spent a very long time responding to piron, & a VERY large amount of patience & "agf" on this.

the editor was ALREADY behaving intransigently when i arrived on the article, weeks ago, & has continued to do so.

the editor has repeatedly mis-represented or "cherrypicked" from my stated positions in the dispute, & continues to do so.

tl;dr - i am all out of "agf" for this person; at least as far as their action on this particular article go.

Lx 121 (talk) 04:55, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your communication style of bolding, italicizing, use of ALL CAPS, and combinations of the three is not helping your cause. The above demonstrates just how disruptive it is, and combined with your belligerence and general intransigence I'm leaning towards a block. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:25, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

*comment -- so, you are saying, in effect, that "you want to block me because you don't like how i write my comments in discussions"?

as opposed to actually considering the MERITS of my arguement.

well, if that is really where the "wikipedia community" is at, not to mention "WP"/rules, & IF you can make that decision stick through through review, then i don't need to be here ^__^ Lx 121 (talk) 08:01, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BTW -- i don't know what peculiar device, or browser you are using to view this; but i'm using firefox with absolutely "plain vanillia" 100% html-compliance.

& on my screen, spacing & selective use of bold & capitals looks a hell of a lot more readable, than "blocks o' text".

so is this really a matter of legibility? or is this about "preferences" of style & "wp:i don't like this"? setting aside, for a moment, the point that the MOS is written for the article-space & we are deep into editor-land here. Lx 121 (talk) 08:08, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's a matter of legibility as well as a general battleground approach to collaboration, combined with decidedly less than civil interactions. If you fail to see the problem in your above response that only strengthens my view. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:01, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's simple legibility. It makes your comments very hard to read, especially as they're in a ranting style to begin with. Please make your comments in normal paragraphs, without the excessive use of capitals, bold and italics, and please try to use capitalisation. It's a simple competence issue. Coupled with stuff like "this editor has written an apologist piece of shit" and "if anybody wants to nominate this piece of crap.." makes me think that you are not particularly interested in collaborative editing, which generally makes me consider a block. Black Kite (talk) 19:26, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately I think Lx's attitude to the repeated (and polite) requests of several users to change the layout of comments rather symbolises his/her wider attitude towards collaboration on Wikipedia. The same day that Lx left his/her last comment on this page, he/she opened up a Request for Comment discussion on the article which, to me, looks like blatant FORUMSHOPPING. The comments on this review repeat the same attack on me as well as this comment: "i'm [sic] done; i [sic] am out of time, out of patience, & out of "agf" for this person. the article is crap, & i [sic] would vote to delete it, "merge" it back into the main c.f.s. article anytime. it [sic] adds nothing to the coverage already there."

I'm afraid I think this is just another example of how Lx is not listening to the comments on this discussion and on the article's talk page. —Brigade Piron (talk) 20:55, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

at Kingsley C. Dassanaike. I've fully protected for now, but don't have time to look into the failed verification. Is a BLP. Samsara 14:18, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a reason why people feel the need to pound the revert button and calling other editors liars in edit summaries? I've never seen such a procedure resolve a dispute. I also don't see the information in the supposed source. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 14:49, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Wow, I've gone years without coming here, now I seem to be a regular visitor. You guys are swell and all, but I hope not to visit again for a while. My part is that the article Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Kingsley C. Dassanayake, closed and reopened, survived with clear consensus despite being put up for speedy within an hour of its creation, rather incessant tagbombing by Obi2canibe, and when those tags were addressed, tagbombing some more, and removal of information claimed by Obi2canibe to be what was lacking in the article. Now that it has survived, Obi2canibe is still being disruptive by tagging things like birthdate and place of birth, added by Sri Lankan editors. Sure it needs more sources, but tagging the article isn't going to fix anything, and based on his behavior through the debate, these are tags for sore-losing. If the community decides tags on every detail in the article are necessary, I will accept that from uninvolved editors, but from him it's a case of Wikipedia:Drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• [135] put up for speedy within an hour of its creation

To answer Jo-Jo Eumerus, there's a difference between editors who occasionally find themselves having to delete an article and those who revel in deletion. A look at their edit history will tell you which type is which. So, I'm one of those "people feel the need" because I have seen enough of these deletionists to have no more kindness or patience for them. Deletion is sometimes necessary, it should not be the first handy recourse for anyone edits Wikipedia.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 14:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kintetsubuffalo, do you dispute Obi2canibe's assertion that there is unsourced information in Kingsley C. Dassanaike; in particular, that there is information claimed to be in a given source which is in fact not there? Mackensen (talk) 15:32, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mackensen, I dispute that tagbombing minutiae solves anything, especially from an editor who's been trying to delete the thing from step 1. Several editors put up both the place and date of birth, and a quick search of the Bronze Wolf list will show him as the only Sri Lankan, pointed out to me by Lankan Scouters who I have been in the process of getting sources from. I left his valid tag about the Braille-even in the AfD it was agreed that needs a better source, and I have written to the Ceylon School for the Deaf & Blind and the descendant org for the World Council for the Welfare of the Blind, no answer yet to either request. Somewhere in all the mess, (and it was an ugly AfD), the sources got scrambled and the proper cite for that "information claimed to be in a given source" should actually be ^[1]--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I take that as a no, you don't dispute it. Mackensen (talk) 16:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mackensen:, my position is a bit more nuanced than the simplistic binary "dispute/don't dispute", whatever point you're trying to wring out of my answer.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kintetsubuffalo: Are you now admitting that the content wasn't referenced? If so, please retract all the instances where you've accused me of lying (1, 2, 3, 4). I and other editors can't read your mind - how are we to know that "the sources got scrambled"?

You need to WP:AGF and not assume that anyone who challenges you is involved in a grand conspiracy against the scouting movement. The only reason that I even knew of this article was because of your posting on WP:LK which I follow. When someone challenges you don't go into WP:BATTLEGROUND and blindly revert, assigning motives to their actions and using abusive language in edit summaries (1, 2, 3, 4). Step back and check your contributions - no one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes.

I cannot verify the Ameresekere source but I shall WP:AGF and that it contains Dassanaike's date/place of birth and says that he was chairman of the Extension Scout Committee for handicapped Scouts of the World Organization of the Scout Movement. As an experienced editor you should know that Wikipedia is not a reliable source and we can't use List of recipients of the Bronze Wolf Award to verify that Dassanaike is the only Sri Lankan to receive the award. Please get the article unprotected (now, don't wait for the protection to expire in a week) and add the source in the appropriate places.--obi2canibe^{talk contr} 16:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Obi2canibe: The table in List of recipients of the Bronze Wolf Award is the same as the table at the official site of the World Scout Bureau, as indicated by the first footnote. The official table also says that this person is the only Sri Lankan to receive the award, so I think we can accept that. – Margin1522 (talk) 18:02, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fine.--obi2canibe^{talk contr} 19:15, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• If I recall correctly, my first ever interaction with Drmies involved me tagging virtually every sentence in an unsourced article as needing a citation, and him reverting me before helping me fix the problem. He later called my initial act of mass-tagging "a bit POINTy" or something to that effect. Honestly, I think over-tagging, while it does look unattractive in the short term and has no doubt been abused by people who actually were behaving POINTily, is borderline acceptable. If an article lacks sources, tagging it in some fashion is always the right way to go; adding an inline tag at every point where one would expect, ideally, to find a citation is not always the best way to go about it, but it is much clearer than adding a single template to the top of the page, and makes clearing the article up easier, in my opinion. The above That editor won't actually make any effort to fix it, but can rest assured that they've done their encyclopedic duty by sticking on a tag is almost certainly completely out of line; per WP:VOLUNTEER, no one is under any obligation to fix all the problems with any particular article themselves, and tagging (especially with some kind of in-line explanation using the "Reason=" parameter or invisible WP:COMMENTs) is making an effort, however small, to fix it. Removing tags without making any effort to address the underlying issues is inherently disruptive and always much, much worse than any act of mass-tagging. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:12, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: would not a simple {{refimprove}} at the top serve the same purpose? My entire objection is and has been Obi2canibe behaving POINTily, i.e. removing information he himself called for in the AFD [136] and replacing a spurious {{Copypaste}} tag to an already-fixed section [137]. Removing is not fixing/"making an effort", and tagging is not fixing/"making an effort" if one has an agenda or bias. Also, "much, much worse"? Really?--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 03:25, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've unprotected the article to allow the discussed constructive changes to be applied. Samsara 03:49, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was speaking generally. A simple header would have perhaps been better in the 4+ years ago example I alluded to above, but in this case what you call "tagbombing" consists of four tags. Tagging specific content that is unreferenced or whose reference isn't sufficient is usually preferable to placing a tag at the top of the article that says nothing about exactly what refs need improving. You above complained that nobody knows exactly what the tagging editor was worked up about and how the editor won't actually make any effort to fix it, but now you are complaining about the editor being too specific about what his problem is?

You are edit-warring to remove three "citation needed" tags and one "failed verification" tag because you think think the one "failed verification" tag was inappropriate? You are much closer to violating WP:POINT here than Obi2canibe, from what I'm seeing. Using the edit summary to accuse someone of "lying" (emphasis yours) is inappropriate in general, but if you are calling someone a liar at the expense of explaining 75% of your edit you are way out of line.

Even for the remaining 25% that you did mention in your edit summary, you are wrong to say that the source verifies the content to which it is attached: all the source says is that (1) he is from Sri Lanka, (2) he received a Bronze Wolf Award in 1973; if this has anything whatsoever to do with his serv[ing] as the Chairman of the Extension Scout Committee for handicapped Scouts of the World Organization of the Scout Movement it is not clear to me. Is the award presented to outgoing (or incoming) chairmen of that committee? Nine other people received the award in 1973, so that seems unlikely.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:48, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So on further examination it turned out that Kintetsubuffalo actually agreed with Obi2canibe that the reference failed verification, and replaced it with an offline ref that I can only assume actually verifies the content. This means that the edit-warring was even POINTier than I thought, and the amount of edit-content addressed in Kintetsubuffalo's edit summary was not 25%, but 0%. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 04:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So wait, I thought we now had a ref that covered his DOB and place? Samsara 06:21, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What I mean is, if we have such a ref, it can (and should) be marked accordingly in the article. Samsara 06:47, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Umm... does that discussion belong on ANI? It's one thing if we don't have such a ref and there is an edit war going on over whether the specific lines should be tagged or a large tag should be placed at the top of the article (or if someone is repeatedly claiming that a source that doesn't verify the article content is enough, or is making baseless accusations in edit summaries, or some such), but ...

If the user conduct is off the table at this point then there's no point discussing article content here, and this thread should be closed.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 07:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Hijiri88: I disagree with your approach here severalfold. Number 1, if there is an issue, let's resolve it and then close the thread, not break it up into a hundred different venues. Number 2, tags per article have only recently somewhat stabilised and remain at a relatively high level. All tag placement does is create a perennial backlog that, unless we change user attitudes, we have little chance of ever addressing. We are so far fortunate that, unlike the German Wikipedia, this problem has not yet spread to the pending changes mechanism, knock on wood. The blanket assertion that tag placement at any level is acceptable, which you've almost argued for, is not a good platform imo. On BLPs particularly, it is sensible to address sourcing issues asap. Assertions about birth place can be controversial and should be supported by a reference if possible. Samsara 07:59, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Number 1: ANI is not for article content disputes. If there is a user conduct problem here (and I'm not sure if there is or isn't) it's KB's removing maintenance templates that were not inappropriate and referring to three or four such templates as "tagbombing".

Number 2: That may be right as a general point, but in this case a ref was added inline that had no relation to the article content to which it was attached. I wish we could just remove such refs, but there are plenty of people who would edit-war endlessly over it. Tagging is the next best thing. A tag was added, and then removed with the bogus rationale that the source supposedly mentioned the name of the topic. If I speak to your concerns directly, then I can say that the difference between inline tags and header tags is that inline tags are super-easy to address and remove, whereas with a single "refimprove" template there is no way to know exactly what it is referring to and so no conceivable way to fully address the tagger's concern without talk page consensus.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 08:12, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kintetsubuffalo: Looking at this article again, I think my preference would be for the date and place of birth to be omitted unless they can be supported by a reference, and to be re-instated later when a reference has been obtained. Also, the Sinhalese braille claim is supported by two references further down the article - why can these not be used to support the same statement in the lede, rather than leaving the tag there? Samsara 07:59, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Samsara:If I can <!-- hide them like this --> while seeking verification, I can go with that.--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:09, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kintetsubuffalo: I think that would be fine. I've made an edit suggestion that I think reflects this discussion. Anyone should feel free to revert if they find any mistake in it. Samsara 11:14, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Samsara:Beat me too it, I did almost identical edits to yours, thanks!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:18, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, sorry about that, :) I wasn't sure if you'd prefer someone else to remove the tags, so I thought I'd do that. Happy editing! Samsara 11:21, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No problem, and thanks for your kindness through this!--Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 11:31, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that when I add three tags its WP:TAGBOMBING but when Kintetsubuffalo: adds two tags to the same article its OK. Given Kintetsubuffalo's WP:OWNERSHIP of the article and trigger happy reverting who here truly beliefs that he would have allowed me to add Template:Refimprove to the top of the article.--obi2canibe^{talk contr} 20:43, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Alfie Gandon: is in violation of WP:Wikihounding. It is worth noting that's she was banned about a week ago for 48 hours for edit warring. I have also warned her over wikihounding twice on her talk page. [138] [139]

Here are some examples. [140] [141] [142] [143] [144] Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:24, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Both editors could be sanctioned under the WP:TROUBLES arbcom decision and looking at their to/fro revert wars its difficult to say who is worse. I suggest a block for both. Disclosure, I have reverted to the long standing consensus at Robin Newton as changes of nationality are always contentious in TROUBLES articles, this should be discussed in the talk page. I have also been involved at British Empire, where Mr Gandon breeched 3RR on 31 Dec 2016, I warned but did not report [145]. I also opened an SPI case which cleared Mr Gandon. WCM_email 16:29, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Withdrawing my remark, seems that Apollo The Logician, a new user, was unaware of the DS. WCM_email 00:12, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What on earth have I done? All I did was revert her wikihounding. Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:TROUBLES these pages are subject to discretionary sanctions regarding edit warring, which you have violated. The WP:TAG team edit warring at Irish slaves myth was also rather obvious. WCM_email 16:37, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Both Wee Curry Monster and Apollo the Logician have been involved in a dispute at British Empire. Both are inveterate edit-warriors who seem somehow to have escaped sanction up to now. Apollo has recently begun what they describe as wikihounding at Mongol Empire. I've noticed Apollo making controversial edits around Northern Ireland-related articles, so feel obliged to keep a closer eye. Alfie Gandon (talk) 16:38, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I have ever edited the British empire article so I presume that was a mistake. I am interested in empires and have a number of empire related pages on my watchlist. Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:44, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is not edit warring to revert an edit which was intended as wikihounding, also I never knew such a policy existed. Tag team edit? What? Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:41, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mr Gandon [146] Apollo the Magician (ATL) has never edited at British Empire, I suggest you don't toss allegations about that can easily be shown as false. I've not been sanctioned as unlike you I've never breached 3RR eg [147],[148],[149],[150],[151] (that's 5RR). To ATL, reverting what you perceive to be wikihounding is not one of the exceptions at WP:3RR. If you're not aware of the discretionary sanctions I suggest you make yourself familiar with them rapidly as many of your edits violate those sanctions. A self-revert would be in order. WCM_email 16:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

With regards to the edits you are talking about, I never violated the 3RR Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:56, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

WCM, your name seem familiar, were you not once blocked for edit warring?Slatersteven (talk) 17:06, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

10 years ago, once, on a different article and more of an example of not understanding policy well enough when I first started editing. Your point? To ATL unless I'm very much mistaken, DS mean there is a 1RR rule on WP:TROUBLES articles not 3RR. WCM_email 17:27, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Slatersteven: That's a helluva memory you got there mate. WCM was blocked for 24-hours on 8 July 2007; your account was created three months before. O Fortuna!^{...Imperatrix mundi.} 17:35, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Not really, I recall the name (it's a fairly memorable one), and I was (if I recollect correctly) party to the dispute. But I did cheat a little (I checked to make sure I was remembering the same user).Slatersteven (talk) 17:40, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If that is true then I am in breach of policy but I must profess my ignorance, I never knew of such a rule.Apollo The Logician (talk) 17:31, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hence, my point you should familiarise yourself with the discretionary sanctions. Regards, WCM_email 19:38, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My point is that you should not "toss allegations about that can easily be shown as false.", in this case that a user (unlike you) has never been sanctioned.Slatersteven (talk) 17:34, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Really, do you think thats a helpful contribution, all righty then. I was blocked once for edit warring, ten years ago on a different article, and btw what I meant was I'd never been sanctioned on the BE article. Happy now, ya got me, I spoke imprecisely. Tea and medals all round. WCM_email 17:48, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Slatersteven. With regard to the British Empire article, I apologise to Apollo; I'm confusing them with someone else. The rest of what I said stands. Wee Curry Monster in particular seems to favour slow edit wars, i.e. gaming the system, instead of discussion (see Talk:British Empire) and I've no idea why they're referring to copyright tags here. Alfie Gandon (talk) 17:45, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And on the subject of Wikihounding [152] based upon this ANI and one other edit.Slatersteven (talk) 19:51, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This (the above) is also (apparently) a question [153] it reads more like a statement that I am following him around (on two pages) and seems to be a case of misrepresentation what he had said.Slatersteven (talk) 19:53, 15 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So will action be taken or not? Apollo The Logician (talk) 16:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I will take that as a no then. Apollo The Logician (talk) 20:58, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment A lot going on above here, but I think there is clear evidence of Alfie hounding Apollo:

• Trouble starts with This merge & redirect of Irish slaves myth (a page Alfie created) to Irish indentured servants. Alfie reverted the merge, Apollo reverted it back, and then a whole lot of edit-warring followed. (See this AN3R report).
• While the two were fighting over the redirect, Aflie started following Apollo to other articles, see: [154][155][156][157][158][159][160][161][162].
• That's nine separate pages that Aflie followed Apollo to (which they'd never edited before), and in each case their first edit to the page was to undo one of Apollo's.
• Aflie's reverts were mostly on the 10th and 15th (with the latter "session" being after a block for edit-warring).

I think at minimum a strong warning not to follow other editors and not to edit war is in order here - probably to both parties but in particular to Alfie, who seems to have a pretty serious WP:OWN issue with Irish slaves myth. Also I note some talk of DS upthread, but it does not appear that either Alfie or Apollo has been formally notified of the WP:TROUBLES DS. Honestly I'm not sure they'd be all that useful in this case, as these two editors' conflict appears to originate in pre-20th Century Irish history stuff. Fyddlestix (talk) 04:00, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A lot going on indeed. Fyddlestix has neglected to describe their own involvement at Irish slaves myth, where Apollo has served as a useful hewer of wood and drawer of water for them. Fyddlestix often neglects things like this when an editor is breaking the rules but serving their purpose e.g. when reporting an edit war that Apollo was involved in, Fyddlestix refused to mention this, and in this discussion involving Apollo and wikihounding, failing to mention Apollo's wikihounding of me. When Apollo came to my notice, I saw a pattern of provocative editing on Northern Ireland-related articles. This didn't surprise me, given their aggressive tactic of non-discussion and reverting at Irish slaves myth, so I reverted the more egregious. The amount of withheld information here is depressing; a little more honesty would ensure a lot more good faith. Alfie Gandon (talk) 12:10, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

StylesClash18 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
X!'s Tools for Page: Here

This user has been engaged in strange editing on their User talk page over an extended period of time. There have been several attempts to identify what is going on -- most recently by samtar, to which StylesClash18 removed it indicating there was some sort of issue with the welcome table. Prior to samtar's interaction, there were 27 reverts back and forth of the same content with in 9 minutes. Nick gave the user a warning prior to this, which they responded to again indicating some sort of editing issue with saving edits to the page. Unfortunately, that doesn't add up because to revert an edit, it has to be saved to the page - and reverting the same content back and forth would not change the way it displays.

Overall, the activity began on December 4, 2016 with reverting the same content back and forth. StylesClash18 made 181 edits to their talk page in the month of December 2016, largely reverts. In January 2017 at the time of filing this, StylesClash18 has made 321 edits to their talk page, which are mostly reverts. The time between reverts is an average of 18 seconds apart as shown on X's Tools. This user has not adequately explained why they are reverting their talk page, specifically the same content, back and forth repeatedly. It almost appears like some sort of bot or script is running. The only thing i've picked up on is that the user always ends with their edit count on an even, round number (ex. 3000, or as it stands currently, 4,550 edits). Outside of their talk page, they've made mostly wrestling related edits, removing, reorganizing and retitling sections with occasional grammatical changes.

WP:OWNTALK states that:

"While the purpose of article talk pages is to discuss the content of articles, the purpose of user talk pages is to draw the attention or discuss the edits of a user. Wikipedia is not a social networking site, and all discussion should ultimately be directed solely toward the improvement of the encyclopedia. User talk pages must serve their primary purpose, which is to make communication and collaboration among editors easier. Editors who refuse to use their talk page for these purposes are violating the spirit of the talk page guidelines, and are not acting collaboratively."

I believe the editor is not using their talk page in a manner that complies with that purpose. -- Dane ^talk 00:05, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Kinda looks like some type of bot testing. Mlpearc Phone (open channel) 00:10, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Bot policy#Bot usage: [...]

Operation of unapproved bots, or use of approved bots in unapproved ways outside their conditions of operation, is prohibited and may in some cases lead to blocking of the user account and possible sanctions for the operator.

Administrators blocking a user account suspected of operating an unapproved bot or an approved bot in unapproved ways should block indefinitely.

Note that high-speed semi-automated processes may effectively be considered bots in some cases, even if performed by an account used by a human editor. If in doubt, check.

@Mlpearc Phone: Testing what exactly? User has been asked that many times and the user refused to give a fruitful answer. [163] [164] where user instead of giving a fruitful response tells me to leave the talk page. This violates the quote from above. Also mind that per above quote from the official bot policy, making automated edits without approval can be blocked indefinitely. This isn't a one off thing, it has been going on for months now. -- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 00:26, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

How the heck am I supose to know, I just said what it looked like and you do not have to qoute policy to me. Mlpearc Phone (open channel) 00:31, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm guessing here, but I think I have an idea what's going on. They're making changes but whenever something doesn't work out the way Styleclash18 expects, they undo the edit. That may seem obvious to us but this user looks like they're thinking of UNDO like CTRL-Z in MS Word. If you click it enough times, it goes backwards to an earlier text change because UNDO keeps a small history of changes. Except, of course, Wiki UNDO just undoes the last edit. So what we're seeing is the Styleclash18 undoing the same edit over and over again whereas they might actually be trying to go back further but not realising that WP is only taking them back by 1 edit. Blackmane (talk) 02:02, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I may have believed that had it been only a few times, but this is consistent for over a month and the user has said they've "resolved it" several times with no obvious changes to the page other than users questioning it. Also worth noting, the user has confirmed socks: BigRedMonster12 and KOMania16 per this diff which I became aware of after the AN/I post. -- Dane ^talk 02:53, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Mlpearc Phone: I am sorry that wasn't an accusation, rather an observation on top of your observation.

@Dane: Given how the user revert wars with themselves and abruptly stops, there is no real change. They revert far too quickly even for word IMHO. They are also very quick to resolve talk page questions on their conduct. They could be WP:GAMEing the system though at this point I am unsure what is left to game - save for editcountitis for adminship.

-- A Certain White Cat ^chi? 10:14, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

I should mention that they tried to remove this ANI discussion with the reasoning of this: "here is no bot being operated but there have been multiple problems with my talk page. These problems have been solved with assistance from multiple editors". JudgeRM (talk to me) 18:36, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I left them a final warning. A block for disruptive editing may be in order soon. Bradv 18:38, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My initial reaction would be to assume they're attempting to game ECP. Sam Walton (talk) 18:39, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To clear the issue up - I have edited the same pages as suspected sock puppets BigRedMonster12 and KOMania16 but I have no relation to these accounts at all. After considering the circumstances, I have decided not to retire but would appreciate other editor's co-operation. Simply, my talk page should be left alone, with no edits conducted by myself or other editors. I apologise for any inconvenience caused but my style of editing may differ to other editors. StylesClash18 19:02, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

This does not clear up the issue. You still have confirmed sock puppets to you and you may not restrict the usage of your talk page the way you suggested (see the policy above). I have opened a sockpuppet investigation to look for any other socks that have not been declared here. -- Dane ^talk 03:18, 17 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Since the issue cannot be solved, I am announcing my retirement. StylesClash18 15:06, 17 January 2017 (UTC)

I would note that you would have gotten less flack if you'd used your sandbox, although your editing pattern is probably a bit excessive even for that. As said above, you cannot bar allcomers from your talk page. BTW if you do decide to come back, note that your signature is not compliant with WP:Sig as it lacks any links to your user page, talk page or contributions page. Nil Einne (talk) 15:26, 18 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mahussain06 has been copying and pasting copyrighted material again after previously being blocked for doing the exact same thing before. An example is this edit of copying the exact sentence "DeGale scored a flash knockdown in round 1 when he knocked Jack down with a left hand to the head." from here. 80.235.147.186 (talk) 00:27, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, apologies for the inconvenience, this was since rectified but the changes didn't seem to have been saved, causing you to believe copyright violation. I had no intention of blatant copyrighting here. I still stand firm with the appeal when I was first blocked and have made significant changes with the way I edit. This was a human error, I thank you for pointing this out and hope this is down as a misunderstanding. Thank you.Mahussain06 (talk) 08:16, 16 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]