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Wiki-star (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was originally blocked in July 2006. Since then, he has been harassing Zarbon by stalking him with multiple accounts, not only on the English Wikipedia but on the English Wikiquote, and in the past couple of months he has decided I am his new target, as is Kalki, when he began editing as Dragonron (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). In 2008, Zarbon created this list based on his experience with Wiki-star on both en.wp and en.wq. The history of his talk page locally and at Wikiquote is full of sockpuppet accounts and IPs that very obviously are him sending taunting messages to Zarbon.

In his actions towards me, he constantly informs users who I appear to be arguing with that I am not to be trusted ([1], [2], [3], [4]) and blindly reverts edits I have made ([5], [6]). And then there are just taunts he makes towards editors he is in disputes with ([7], [8]).

Due to the fact that this abuse has been going on for 8 years and he certainly shows no signs of stopping (I've attempted to contact his most recent ISP, but I've been informed that as it is a mobile internet service there may be no action taken), and no one in their right mind would even contemplate unblocking him, can we formally consider him banned such that any edits he makes can be reverted on sight?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:19, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) Has anything been opened at WP:SPI about this? Erpert ^{blah, blah, blah...} 18:37, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There have been old checkusers done as well as a few recent SPI cases with his recent incarnation but it was only today that I found the connection between old and new accounts.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

and what makes u think Dragonball1986 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is not behind the recient attacks?! OR maybe Zarbon (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) himself is doing this for all the attention?! One things for sure, Sesshomaru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) isnt the one responsible! Not, Recoome (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) either — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarkRave728 (talk • contribs)

New account Jesus! Im famous! posted at User talk:Zarbon trying to impersonate Kalki. Looks like more socking related to this thread. Ishdarian 10:49, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, that's something! highly doubt the troll-impersonator is related to this case — Preceding unsigned comment added by Well, that's something! (talk • contribs) 10:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And he's now disrupting this discussion.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:05, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He also continues to harass X96lee15 but he will not allow his user talk page to be semiprotected, or apparently allow me to edit it, even if it's just a null edit.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 18:11, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Obvious sock RangeRoverOver (talk · contribs) blocked. Acroterion (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Still have issues with X96lee15 restoring content by this user against the tenets of WP:BAN, and he still demands that his user talk not be protected despite the fact that the only activity it's gotten is because of Wiki-star/Dragonron and his socks.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:09, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, the only one that is harassing me is Ryulong. — X96lee15 (talk) 16:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I posted this same information on the English Wikiquote as I am trying to bring this to everyone's attention. I am very sick and tired of this person harassing me and following my contributions only to revert or vandalize much of my efforts. Additionally, this person attempts to impersonate my user name or generally pretend to come from my very inactive forum from about 7 years ago. This has been going on forever now, maybe over 10 years of pestering and gibberish and it's cross-wiki on all the sister projects. I have compiled a list of over 400 usernames attached to this person and apparently, this user has no intention of stopping. Any help halting this person's actions are greatly appreciated; please protect my talk page and the articles I contributed to and listed prior. If there is a way to track all IP's attached to this person; difficult as it may be, a permanent block is very useful. However, there is currently a discussion about this person and their multiple accounts on wikiquote and wikipedia and the attached information that may prove useful: Admin noticeboard for sock accounts. Any help halting this person's actions are greatly appreciated. - Zarbon (talk) 04:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User talk page protection

I have twice gone to WP:RFPP to request that X96lee15's user talk page be semi-protected because Wiki-star's socks keep going back to it and he has refused to allow anyone to remove posts from his user talk page. Both times I've made this request, he has gone to RFPP to ask me to withdraw the request, and an uninvolved editor has made a comment saying that regardless of the fact that I am the one being harassed by the sockpuppets, I have no right in requesting that another user's talk page be protected to prevent further disruption by a banned user. The first request was closed because there was not enough activity. The second time around it was closed because "policy [needs] to be examined". It's clear that Wiki-star has been de facto banned because he's been blocked since 2006 and no one in their right mind would perform an unblock. Now why is this protection so contentious?—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 10:54, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Please name me as the "uninvolved editor", because I think I have a right to voice exactly why I'm making those statements. You've also misquoted me slightly, but crucially; my comment has been that you have no right to request the protection when it is evident said user does not want it. Recently, I can see that they have been moderating their talkpage, and reasonably well. It is exactly this response to the trolling that is what keeps this IP hopper coming back to attack you. The easiest thing to do is to take X96Lee15's talk page off your watch list, particularly as they've stated they want nothing more to do with you at the moment. Do that, and simply follow WP:DENY by ignoring any comments the IP makes; if they start coming to your talk page, or resume interfering with any of your edits, then you have a case for protecting those areas. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:28, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  If I'm the one being attacked why do I not have a say in what happens on the user talk page of someone who has had no activity on his talk page in the past month except due to this guy? And it's not IPs. It's sockpuppet accounts. I'm not allowed to request protection? I'm not allowed to remove the content per WP:BAN? He should be allowed to make a special archive just for the three comments that I have voiced my opinion on how they should not be kept? It's nonsense. The best way to apply WP:DENY is to prevent him from doing what he's been doing and that's editing the user talks of X96lee15 and Zarbon. It should not matter if one of them does not want their talk page semi-protected. It should be done to prevent disruption.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:46, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is really pointless, as even if we did protect the page, per protection policy, we would then create an unprotected subpage so that IP editors could still contact the editor... User talk page protection is to be used only for severe vandalism, and for short durations, and its clear that your not looking for a short duration protection. If this was an editor requesting protection of their own talk page, perhaps an admin would be willing to stretch the rule a bit to do a somewhat long protection, but I don't see that happening over the objection of the editor. Perhaps someone could craft an edit filter for you? Monty₈₄₅ 19:58, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well something needs to be done because X96lee15 doesn't have the ability to determine that he's talking to an obvious sock. No one has had any talk page contact with him outside of this circus since December 6, and the last IP that was unrelated to this case was in October. There is no loss if we semi-protect his talk page for a month.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 15:26, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody asks me a question and I will answer it. I'm not concerned with who's a "sockpuppet" or not. I do not want my talk page protected; it doesn't matter how long it's been since someone left me a message. Actually, I'd love it if you would never edit it again. I don't want anything do to with you. I'm caught up in your drama for no reason.

Please take my talk page off your watch list. If you did that and ignored any change to it, then your problem would go away. I've shown that I will revert any obvious trolling or any references to you from my talk page. The conversation you reverted was an innocent one that made no mention of you at all. I don't understand why you're so focused on removing every edit your "enemy" makes. Take a step back and breathe. — X96lee15 (talk) 16:05, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not on my watchlist. I discover a new sockpuppet today and he goes to your talk page impersonating another user and I remove it based on that. It does not matter if the conversation is innocent or not. Per WP:BAN no comment left by Wiki-star aka Dragonron is allowed to be left on the English Wikipedia. He has been disrupting this project for several years and been harassing multiple users across multiple sister projects. He has had several of his accounts globally blocked because of this. The scope of this issue is beyond you or I.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, then for every user contribution that says "User talk:X96lee15", just ignore it. Do that, and your troll will stop posting on my talk page and I will be left out of this (which is all I want). — X96lee15 (talk) 16:10, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. Because per WP:BAN it has to be removed. There are so many solutions to this issue but it seems you will not allow any of them. You do not remove conversations from your talk page if they are by a banned editor's sockpuppet. You do not want me to remove the content. And you do not want your user talk page to be semi-protected, even if for let's say a week, such that a solution for this issue that does not require you can be found.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

All YOU have to do is ignore my talk page and this all goes away. YOU'RE the only one that cares. YOU'RE the only one this "dragonron" is bothering. YOU'RE the only one reverting their edits. YOU'RE "feeding the troll". They are only coming back to WP because YOU will not take a step back and not worry about controlling everything. — X96lee15 (talk) 16:18, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. I am not this guy's only target. As you can see above, he has been harassing Zarbon since 2004. You and I are collateral damage.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ryulong, you are clearly in the wrong here. Stop going to somone else's talk page and editing it against thier permission. The best real world example I can think of is if someone had a bulletin board posted in their house and you were offended by something somene else posted on that buliten board so you went into thier house and ripped it down. If I were X96lee15, I would probably try to have you blocked on WP:HARASS grounds. CombatWombat42 (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Indeed. I have asked Ryulong to stop, on X96's talk page. If they don't, they will be blocked. Drmies (talk) 17:03, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My removals are allowed under WP:BAN. I should not be blocked for enforcing a Wikipedia policy just because it's on someone else's user talk page. I'm genuinely sorry that things have degenerated to the state they're in now, but I don't see how any of these options solves anything.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 17:18, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You might be enforcing a Wikipedia policy but I bet that X96lee15 can also find a policy that says you should not be editing their Talk Page. Moreover, I think that you should lighten up on being a Wikipedia policeman. If some editor is problematic, bring it up on their Talk Page or here on ANI, don't stalk them. Even if your point is right and they are a sock puppet, it borders on harassment and could backfire on you, Ryūlóng. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There is no policy that says that, Liz. But there is a policy that says

Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a ban, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule.

—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:30, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Policy also says that a user gets to choose how they manage their talk page, and they've categorically told you that your presence is no longer welcome there. Continuing to follow their talkpage, and editing it/reverting edits on it could lead to you being blocked - so it's best not to let the troll keep goading you. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 00:26, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I gave him an alternate option involving the use of an edit filter that would minimize my presence but he refused it because I would still possibly edit the page if the edit filter was bypassed. I think the policy to forbid a banned editor's edits is higher up on the scale of importance than talk page editing etiquette.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 08:31, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Goodness Ryulong, you're even more stubborn than I am. The crux of the matter is that if you stop feeding that troll on that talk page, it won't bother you there. Now, I'm not suggesting they'll go away altogether, because that's obviously fake, but they're quite likely to just stop editing X96lee's talkpage if you do. And if the page is not on your watchlist, unless you get Echo-pinged, you wouldn't know about it anyway! Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 10:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would eventually find out because I will have discovered some new sockpuppet account elsewhere on the project and I will see that that sockpuppet had edited X96lee15's user talk page. That's how I discovered pretty much every edit that was made to his talk page. I've only added it to my watchlist recently because of the ongoing discussion I'm having with him.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 13:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ryulong, per your link here, the admin said "so that the community can make a judgement.", it seems pretty clear to me that the community considers you wrong here. I would stop and try a different approach (or even better Wikipedia:Do not feed the trolls) before someone gets annoyed at you for disruptive editing. CombatWombat42 (talk) 16:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah but that doesn't mean there can't be any alternate solutions that solve both our problems, particularly because he can't ID socks.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 16:51, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting talk page edits

Over the past two months, I've somehow been included as collateral damage in a talk page edit war with Ryulong (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and various sockpuppets of Dragonron (I believe – there may be more than one user involved on that end). Initially, Ryulong and I had a disagreement on whether or not a reference should be included on an article ([9]).

When Ryulong would revert my change to the article, the sock would post to my page informing me of the revision. Typically I ignore talk page messages such as those, but I do not delete them because I'm a firm believer in anti-censorship. Ryulong would notice those posts on my page (I assume by looking at all the sock's contributions) and revert them. I took offense to those revisions per WP:TPO, specifically "Editing—or even removing—others' comments is sometimes allowed. But you should exercise caution in doing so, and normally stop if there is any objection." I have clearly objected to Ryulong editing my talk page and have told him so (via edit comments and through talk pages) but he continues to revert the original posts ([10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17]).

Discussed compromises

We've discussed this on my talk page and cannot come to a compromise. Ryulong initially tried (twice) to get my talk page semi-protected (first, second) which I don't agree to because of my views on anti-censorship and the fact that any IP or new user wouldn't be able to contact me.

My original compromise was to regularly archive my talk page (typically I do it once per year) to remove the posts. This lets me keep my anti-censorship views and doesn't make Ryulong have to see any sock posts. In response to that, Ryulong blanked by archive page and put it up to a WP:MFD (currently ongoing).

Ryulong's compromise was to semi-protect my talk page based on an IP range. I disagreed to this because I don't want my talk page protected PLUS he said he will still edit my talk page if the sock gets through.

My compromise currently is for me to moderate my talk page to remove any posts that reference him from a confirmed sockpuppet if he promises to not revert my talk page anymore (he's welcome to post there on new/existing topics). As good-faith gestures, I've already remove posts that were obviously trolling ([18]).

Conclusion

I'm kind of stuck here. I don't want to be stuck in an edit war, especially since Ryulong is saying he is backed by WP:BAN, which says he can revert without regards to the 3RR. There's really nothing I can do. Through no fault of my own, I'm stuck in the middle of this which has taken more time than I thought. IMO, if Ryulong would stop with his reverting of socks then this problem would have ended itself months ago. He continues to feed the trolls by reverting my talk page continuously. There really isn't any reason to revert my talk page (a tiny corner of Wikipedia that <1% of the Internet sees) except for Ryulong to spite the sock.

Note: Pardon me for the format of this ANI, I'm not sure the best way to present things. I also tried to find a different avenue for this discussion, but DR and RFC don't seem to apply to talk pages.

An WP:IBAN seems appropriate here. CombatWombat42 (talk) 18:15, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

An IBAN? That would solve nothing, because Ryulong believes that his crusade overrides everything. (Unless you simply mean a ban on Ryulong editing that talk page.) I've asked him to stop and warned him that further actions on X96 talk page would lead to a block--I haven't blocked him yet because X96 is a pretty friendly person who keeps continuing to discuss things with Ruylong. The proposal to (semi-)protect the talk page is a bunch of nonsense: that's up to X96, and there is no need for someone's talk page to be protected just to satisfy Ryulong's desire to prevent one little troll from posting--unless this is what X96 wants. Well, X96 doesn't want it. So, as far as I'm concerned, Ryulong simply needs to stay the hell away from that talk page and let others deal with it. I could say more, more about what this persistent badgering of X96 says about Ryulong, and how all that crusading against a little dragon just feeds the troll, but I think this is pretty clear. Drmies (talk) 18:26, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whether or not policy supports Ryulong here or not his actions in this case have been totally inappropriate and very combative. Rather than continuing to do something they knew to be seriously irritating another user they should have stopped doing it and discussed it and if unable to reach an agreement sought an outside opinion on whether their actions were justified especially as the harm caused by leaving the edits is at most very minor. I strongly suggest Ryulong refrain from making any similar edits until a way forward is found else they are likely to find themselves blocked for disruption. Dpmuk (talk) 18:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural comment I don't believe this should have been moved under an existing ANI. I took great care to explain the issue to ensure it stood on its own. I do not feel this ANI is related to any existing ANI. — X96lee15 (talk) 18:56, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, this is related to an existing thread on this page and I've moved it accordingly. It cannot stand on its own because there's already been discussion about this issue.

Second, this is not censorship. My removals are in line with WP:BAN, rather than WP:TPO. I suggested semi-protection. X96lee15 refuses. I suggest an edit filter. X96lee15 refuses because I mention that if the filter is ever bypassed I will revert the content added. He simply wants me to never edit his talk page again but Wiki-star/Dragonron keeps registering new accounts and X96lee15 keeps humoring him by responding. No one is dealing with the edits but me. It's unfortunate that X96lee15 and I got off on the wrong foot because of this user, but things should not have been exacerbated to this extent. Am I seriously expected that when I find a new sockpuppet of the banned user that I just ignore whatever he's done on X96lee15's user talk because of this souring? That's just ridiculous. In the past two months no one has edited X96lee15's talk page except for myself, Drmies, and the dozen or so sockpuppet accounts and IPs. And Dpmuk, the only way forward that X96lee15 has stated that he will accept is if I never go to his user talk again and essentially allow him to hold discussions with a banned user.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 19:02, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The main reason I'd like to keep this separate is that it's my goal to have this resolved as soon as possible. I'd rather not wait for the other aspects of this to be resolved before this can be resolved (although I don't know if that's necessarily the case). BUT moving this thread is another example of Ryulong changing things to fit the way he thinks things should be. In reality, there is no reason for my original ANI to be moved. — X96lee15 (talk) 19:45, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a related matter because it's all due to Wiki-star/Dragonron. And you don't call these things "ANIs". This whole page is WP:ANI. You made a new thread on WP:ANI.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment Ryulong, Drmies is right and you should stop reverting on that talk page. Reverting edits of banned users is generally acceptable, but reverting any sort of edits is never mandatory except for specific types of BLP vios and I guess copyvios. And while people theoretically don't WP:OWN user/usertalk pages, they do get quite a bit of deference about them in practice nowadays, enough that if X96 says you should stop reverting there, then you should. Absolutism about anything on Wikipedia is generally unhelpful. X96 also doesn't appear to be "holding discussions" with the user (which when it comes down to it, they could do by email without your ever knowing, if that was what was really going on). The edits themselves look like low level nonsense and griping, not likely to provoke serious drama just by their content, and the page is of relatively low visibility (except for the temporary increased attention due to your setting off this ANI), so if the edits stay on the page, whoop de do. There are far more worthwhile things to worry about. 50.0.121.102 (talk) 19:48, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Banning policy states "Anyone is free to revert any edits made in violation of a ban, without giving any further reason and without regard to the three-revert rule." While it does go onto say "This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor (obviously helpful changes, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand), but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert." There has not been one message left on X96lee15's talk page that has fallen under this "obviously helpful changes" category and there is no exception made for comments left on user talk pages. And X96lee15 is indeed conversing with the editor ([19], [20]). He does not realize that this is the banned editor, but at this point he should expect that any brand new account or IP that comes to his page is a sockpuppet, particularly if the IP is in the same range as every one before it. He may want to assume good faith, but when it comes to someone who has apparently been harassing one of our users for 8 years there's no real good faith to have anymore.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 20:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And still you need to leave that talk page alone, whether you like it or not. You are seriously getting on X96's nerves (that seems obvious to me, anyway), and that's a kind of harassment. No one is being harassed by X96 leaving those messages on their talk page. Drmies (talk) 20:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Half of them were to attack me. And we are supposed to collectively ignore policy and allow a banned user to edit simply because the act of removing those comments bothers a peripheral user? That's ridiculous.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 22:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've said (and have) I will revert any talk page comment that references you on my talk page. I don't believe any of the talk page comments "attacked" you either (although I admit "attack" is a subjective term). — X96lee15 (talk) 23:08, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment FWIW, Ryulong continues to revert changes to my talk page ([21]), even while this discussion is going on. A WP:IBAN is the only thing that will keep him from reverting my talk page, I believe. Although I have my doubts even that will stop this behavior. — X96lee15 (talk) 23:06, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki-star/Dragonron is not allowed on this website anymore. Why do you have such a problem with me enforcing WP:BAN on your user talk page? Why do you have a problem with measures I have proposed to stop it? For fucks sake, that IP was already blocked a week ago and I bet you actually believe that it's his schoolmates making him look bad. He's been at this for 8 years and everything that's been done in the past hasn't stopped him then and I doubt me being forbidden from editing your user talk page is going to stop him now.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:13, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The only thing keeping him posting to my talk page is you reverting it every time. And please stop swearing during your arguments. — X96lee15 (talk) 23:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He was doing that long before we identified him as a banned user's sock and before I removed the text.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Whether it's policy appropriate is irrelevant. X96 has asked asked you multiple times to stay off his talkpage and you should honor his request. KonveyorBelt 23:32, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have blocked Ryulong for 24 hours for continuing to revert on X96lee15's user talk despite several editors advising him here that he was going about this the wrong way and at least two admins advising him here that he was heading for a block for disruption if he continued to revert. Regardless of the right and wrong of the underlying situation - and what ever consensus develops here on that - to continue to do so after such advice is clearly disruptive.

On the issue of the underlying problem I note that policies, with the exception of a couple of legal or WMF mandated policies, are meant to reflect underlying community consensus. Given the discussion above it seems that consensus may not support Ryulong in their actions. Their interpretation of the policy was reasonable to begin with but having seen the above they should have been aware that the community may not support them and so relying on the policy was not within the spirit of our policies. The policy may need changing, or this may be considered a one of case of IAR, but Ryulong should not carry on reverting in such a situation based on their interpretation of policy. Dpmuk (talk) 23:41, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Policy is fine. An 8 year Wikipedia should understand the consensus model of operation. NE Ent 00:48, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Ryulong is correct: WP:DENY is the only remedy against long-term abuse. What should happen is that people put their energy into explaining how DENY helps the encyclopedia to X96lee15, and any blocks should be for WP:POINT violations that encourage the banned user to keep going—the excitement that user has generated from the recent back-and-forth has given them momentum to continue for another few months, and they now know that if they ever get bored they can post at User talk:X96lee15 to poke anyone who cares about the effect of long term abusers. Johnuniq (talk) 01:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Right principle, wrong conclusion. Totally ignoring edits, that is, not reverting them, is greater denial than reverting. Note the focus of WP:DENY is implicitly mainspace; if I user wants to deal with ban evading trolls by not reverting them on their user talk page that's greater denial than playing whack-a-mole reverting. NE Ent 02:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• But X96lee15 is doing the opposite of ignoring the edits—X96lee15 is choosing to revert the good editor while restoring the banned user, a classic WP:POINT problem. Ryulong may have overdone it because if X96lee15 did not understand the first time, they are unlikely to understand the second time, but the actual problem is that someone believes their talk page is sacrosanct and the owner can choose to provide a safe haven for banned users if they want. Wikipedia is not a place to promote even worthy campaigns such as anti-censorship. Johnuniq (talk) 03:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This entire issue was caused by Ryulong. His reverting of the sock's edits on my talk page caused the sock to come by more often. Had he never reverted the sock, the sock would never continue posting, as I never responded to any of the posts. Once Ryulong got involved, I was seeing a "you have messages" notification every time I logged in. I'd have to look at my talk page history to see what in the world was going on. It was very annoying to myself. My only recourse at the time was revert him or that would have gone on forever, since Ryulong is hell-bent on reverting and banning every sock post within minutes of a post. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was being affected. When you say Ryulong is the "good editor" and the sock is the "bad", I'm not so sure it's that black and white.

Had Ryulong heeded my initial request to let me moderate my talk page, the sock would have stopped posting because they were not getting a response from me. HE'S the one that was misapplying WP:DENY. I'm not trying to provide a safe-haven for trolls. I'm trying to edit Wikipedia without getting into all this drama. Only when Ryulong got involved did this situation escalate. — X96lee15 (talk) 04:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Johnuniq, it had to happen--disagreement. IMO, Ryulong's overzealous actions have the opposite effect that DENY aims for. Here we are at ANI, disagreeing over a couple of talk page messages, while we're trying to figure out, possibly, what weighs more heavily, policy or another policy. I don't really think X96 thinks their own talk page is sacrosanct, but given Ryulong's rather obnoxious behavior is enough to make anything they want to mess with sacrosanct. I do agree that "anti-censorship" is overreaching, but hey, I've also had the occasional contact with blocked/banned socks though, admittedly, they were of a slightly different caliber. But if Ryulong had just said "sure" a day or two ago, all of this would not have gotten top billing on the top dramahboard. Drmies (talk) 04:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• We don't disagree as much as you might think because I participated in another case, much more difficult than this, where a good editor ran off the rails pursuing a banned editor with frequent reverts and sockpuppet tagging. I strongly advised that his involvement was exciting the banned user, and should stop.

  In this case, X96lee15 has explained the central issue: "I do not delete them because I'm a firm believer in anti-censorship" (diff). It's fine for people here to tell Ryulong to stop, but X96lee15 needs to be told that no page is owned or controlled by any user, and no page is available for the pursuit of noble causes, such as welcoming banned users in the name of anti-censorship. Ryulong is not taking advice, but X96lee15 has not been given any accurate advice that I can see. The first time that X96lee15 restored the banned user's comment was on 9 December 2013 (diff)—that set the tone for what followed because a completely useless comment attacking Ryulong was restored for no reason other than "Shouldn't remove user's talk page edits". An admin should semiprotect X96lee15's talk for a month and unblock Ryulong on condition that they leave X96lee15's talk alone. Johnuniq (talk) 06:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I understand that I do not own my talk page. I think I have a pretty good grasp of Wikipedia policies and guidelines (I've definitely read them much more this past week due to this issue). And I also know that had an admin or consensus told me to stop reverting Ryulong I would have. That's the difference between Ryulong and myself. In fact, I did stop reverting his reverts the past few days because I knew that tact wasn't working and Ryulong would not be stopped. Everything I did, I did in order to get my involvement in this situation to stop. Maybe "pursuit of anti-censorship" was a bit of hyperbole on my part...lol.

And for the record, I still disagree with semi-protection for my talk page. Censorship aside, I received messages from an IP and a new user yesterday that would not have been able to be posted concerning a potential BLP issue. — X96lee15 (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The block is ok on general disruption and POINT grounds independently of the underlying issue with the edits and X96's possibly unwise restorations. Drmies's take on the talk page's sarcrosanctness is again astute. Talk pages aren't sarcrosanct and Johnuniq's points are well taken, but Ryulong's right to edit war on someone else's talk page isn't sarcrosanct either. I think the current situation (including the block, and the presence of some unreverted Wiki-star edits on X96's usertalk) reflects some reasonable judgment calls.

  I'm also uncomfortable with Ryulong's contacting Wiki-star's ISP about Wiki-star.[22] While that approach is sometimes legitimate for dealing with long-term or very serious abuse, Ryulong should not be the one doing it, as it's in some tension with (though maybe not directly violating) the spirit of his arbcom restriction against seeking users' real-life identities.[23] He also seems too WP:INVOLVED to be doing such actions in this particular case regardless. I'm not versed on current WP practices for that type of intervention but because of the hazard it creates for spreading battles off-wiki, my first reaction is it should probably be reserved for checkusers (maybe with some formal process, plus CU'ing for more socks) and/or the WMF. I'm fine with Ryulong suggesting such measures to others, but doing them himself doesn't seem wise.

  Admins and CU's might want to block the different known Wiki-star socks that have been active recently, if any are still loose.50.0.121.102 (talk) 06:35, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure where to put this but I agree with User:NE Ent, "Totally ignoring edits, that is, not reverting them ..." User:Ryulong has been feeding the troll exactly what it wants, attention, whereas as far as I can tell USer:X96lee15 was WP:AGF but once he realised what was happening took a more standofish approach (which I think is more valuble). Policy issues aside ignoring a troll or at least treating it like a new user is much better than trying to stop all of their actions in user space(WP:IMHO). CombatWombat42 (talk) 15:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So what? My block now sets an example that "Oh, if I piss off this editor, and I happen to be banned for several years, I should just post on someone else's talk page and hope that the first person gets blocked because they get on this neutral person's nerves". If material is removed because it is written by a banned editor, restoring it is proxying for that editor. We remove content in that fashion from this page all the time. In fact, there were instances of it on this page while I was blocked. I should heed a user's request to not edit his or her talk page, but at the same time if it's a banned editor who's been at this nonsense for 8 years should we allow him to be humored? Aside from the one IP editor/new user that approached X96lee15 in the past couple of days, there has been nothing but this banned user posting to his talk page and me reverting that editor, and X96lee15 reverting me. If this hadn't happened, then there would have been zero edits to his talk page between December 6 and February 5. I know X96lee15 is tired of me and I'm tired of having to clean up after Wiki-star. Someone helped code up an WP:edit filter for me and it's ready to be deployed, and it should block just Wiki-star from posting on several places on the project, not limited to X96lee15's user talk.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 23:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your block should have set the example of how much you can get on the community's nerves before you get blocked. I mean, cheese, H, and rice, look at your name all over this page. Don't you ever stop? Your dramatics are funny to only one person--that dope you keep trying to revert, who's probably pissing in his panties watching you remonstrate here again and again and again. Let's hope someone sets up that filter, let's hope CensoredScribe finds better things to do, let's hope that all this gets closed up and boxed up and thrown into an archive. TLDNR and GMAFH. Drmies (talk) 01:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's because I started the two of them and I was highly involved with them. And all I need is someone to say "I'l make the filter" and I can give them the code I have, but we really need to stop CensoredScribe from making more categories. He means well, but holy cow is he ever wrong.—Ryūlóng (琉竜) 01:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ryulong, one way to look at it is that you yourself are also a banned editor, not from the whole site but just from X96lee15's talk page. So what happens if banned user A makes an edit, and banned user B reverts A's edit under WP:BAN? If you undo B's revert, you've let A's edit stand; but if you don't, you've let B's edit stand, an infinite regress. A completely inflexible "revert all banned edits" approach might even result in the whole site melting down, like the computers on Star Trek used to do when presented with illogical propositions. Here, instead of inflexible rules, there is human judgment to apply, with various people weighing in on the particulars.

In this case, based on a balancing of factors involving the content of the edits, the nature of the targeted page, the wishes of the user (X96lee15) associated with the page, the hassles caused by editor B's conduct, and the remedies (blocking) already being taken against editor A, a reasonable discussion resulted in action taken against editor B, and some of A's edits were left standing. I'd urge you to accept the outcome: you should stop editing X96lee15's talk page, and leave dealing with it to X96lee15. I'm sure that if serious disruption results from sock activity there and X96lee15 doesn't do anything about it, then others will intervene. For now, the issues don't seem to rise to that level and X96lee15's DNFTT approach is is a reasonable use of discretion. 50.0.121.102 (talk) 02:46, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

At the advice of policy wonks Johnuniq, Bbb23, and DangerousPanda I am bringing this matter to ANI rather than to AN. The case, involving Skyring (goes by Pete) and HiLo48, is this.

On 4 November 2013 I closed a lengthy ANI discussion and logged an interaction ban between the two. The particulars of that discussion are on the record: it was painful, and there was considerable doubt about Skyring's editing and ways of interacting. At any rate, the ban was logged. Since then each has complained to me about the other: I warned Skyring once and then blocked him briefly, a month later I think; recently I warned HiLo but stopped short of blocking him.

But now disruption has risen again, with a thread started by Pete on Talk:Soccer in Australia. HiLo argues, in a nutshell, that Pete has followed him there, and with some reason. Pete has only one single edit in the article, a revert of HiLo (from August 2013, before the IBAN), against 40 by HiLo, going back to 2010. The talk page is similar: 24 edits for Pete, going back to August 2013, and 375 by HiLo.

So, the question is, is the section Talk:Soccer_in_Australia#About_time_we_talked_about_the_name_again, started by Pete on 1 February, to be taken as indicative of him following (hounding) HiLo to one of the latter's favorite haunts, and thus perhaps of baiting him? It should be noted that the section discusses the whole soccer/football naming controversy, in which HiLo has been outspoken and on the record. In other words, one could expect that this important matter would attract HiLo's attention, and an IBAN preventing him from participating in that thread takes one of the longstanding voices in that debate out of the equation.

Let it be noted, but I need to wrap this up, that NE Ent left Pete a note on his talk page that supports the notion that this was inappropriate on Pete's part (correct me if I'm wrong, Ent), and that Johnuniq and DangerousPanda subscribe to that idea too. Thank you, Drmies (talk) 23:52, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the effort, Drmies. Just let me clarify there. My interest is not in the sport, so I'm not active on the article page. Rather, the question of the terminology is what arouses my interest, and that is confined to the talk page. In fact it is pretty much what the talk page is all about, and I urge editors to take a look for themselves. It is painful.

My contributions there have been ongoing for some time. August 2013, going by the page history and this diff. There may be earlier edits, but that one predates the IBAN. Further discussion on the RFC for name change, where I supported the current title. After doing a little research I find that "Soccer" is now deprecated amongst media and sports organisations, accordingly I now support a name change to reflect the changed reality.

This seems to be a majority position amongst editors, going by the !vote taken. There are some points raised in the discussion immediately preceding, where my position is made quite clear: we should set aside our own personal opinions and look for good sources. My feeling is that whatever I might have called the game fifty years ago as a schoolchild in Victoria, the name has changed, especially over the last few years,

Do we have any guidance on where to proceed? My understanding is that both participants to an IBAN are able to participate in !votes for RfCs and so on so long as there is no interaction. I think every editor involved is entitled to a voice in that sort of discussion, and if any editor were to lodge a !vote in the ongoing "Gauge Support" discussion I would not seek to have it removed on a spurious technicality. It is a matter of fairness and commonsense. --Pete (talk) 00:21, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Pete's response here is effectively the same as it was on Drmies's talk page. I find it disingenuous at best. I think there are several of us in agreement that what Pete did was "wrong". The harder question is what's the remedy, and we may find significantly more disagreement there. Not being a policy wonk (no matter what Drmies says), my view is that Pete violated the WP:IBAN, either its spirit or by implication. If HiLo had responded directly, he would obviously have violated the ban, and I think Pete was goading him to do so. (BTW, I have no history with either editor that I'm aware of, or at least remember.) It reminds me of the I Love Lucy episode (everything does) in which Lucy bets with Ricky that he can't lose his temper for 24 hours and he bets that she can't not buy a new hat for the same period of time. During the next 24 hours, Lucy keeps doing things to try to make Ricky lose his temper. He comes close but always pulls back. I heartily recommend this episode for anyone interested in implied IBAN violations.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:28, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict × 2)Skyring's contributions on Soccer in Australia are within the allowed activities of WP:IBAN. However, given their lack of prior interest in the subject, as documented by Drmies with the cool tool, the strong opinions at the ANI discussion which lead to ban, the vast size of both Australia and English Wikipedia, in which to engage in questions of terminology, the number of editors already having a robust discussion of the issue, I would say it's of minimal benefit to the Encyclopedia to focus their efforts there; given the potential for conflict between two editors who just don't get along I requested they strike their comments and disengage. NE Ent 00:36, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• If anyone wants to take the trouble, they might review Special:Contributions/Skyring and see if there is a net benefit from Skyring/Pete's presence—I suspect the answer is no. At a minimum, I support an indefinite topic ban for Skyring regarding soccer/football and its naming controversy. At Drmies' archived talk, I noted (at 1 January 2014) that, checking the entire history of Talk:Soccer in Australia showed that:
  • HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009, with 111 in December 2013 and none in 2014. In the December edits, 19 mention "soccer" in the edit summary.
  • Skyring made 3 edits in January 2014, 3 edits in December 2013, and 5 edits in August 2013, and no other.

I have seen enough of Skyring's style to know that his recent interest in the topic of soccer is almost certainly gaming the system to irritate his opponent—HiLo48 always participates in a new outbreak of the soccer/football battle, but he cannot participate at the moment because the section was started by Skyring. Of course no one can prove that this is an intentional tactic by Skyring, however proof is not needed since all the community wants is drama reduction and productive editing, and anything that might be baiting should be stopped. The great soccer/football debate will continue without Skyring's participation. Skyring will use any opportunity as seen at User talk:Drmies#Sorry to bother you again where Skyring just happened to have noticed that his opponent has commented at User talk:Spinrad (which has a total of five edits in its history)—in the comment, HiLo48 has technically breached the IBAN, but it is such a harmless explanation that only someone going for blood would seize on it. Johnuniq (talk) 00:43, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Drmies is well aware that we monitor each other's contributions. As for "going for blood", in the section linked, I requested a gentle reminder and that no further action be taken. I don't want to see anyone in trouble, but I do want the personal attacks to cease. That's why I supported the IBAN in the first place. --Pete (talk) 00:50, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

checking the entire history of Talk:Soccer in Australia showed that: HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009, with 111 in December 2013 and none in 2014.

Well, It's interesting that you should bring those contributions up. For starters, you say "none in 2014", but I count 76. Perhaps I could ask an independent editor to check my figures?

Looking at some of those contributions makes for interesting reading, coming from someone who claims they don't make personal attacks. --Pete (talk) 20:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

HiLo pointed out, on his talk page and here, that no evidence is given of personal attacks, and I think it's important to point out, for the new readers, that I see no personal attacks by HiLo on Pete since the IBAN. (That's the issue--not whether HiLo has been rude or whatever to other editors--that's unproven, you cannot make that case under your IBAN, and it's not of interest to this discussion--note after edit conflict and Pete's contribution.) It's not even really relevant here, nor is it relevant how exciting or important discussions on the Australian soccer nomenclature are. Indeed, I'm beginning to think that the lengthy commentary by Pete on this matter is intended to draw attention away from the actual matter at heart: whether we should see their interest in the Soccer in Australia article and its talk page as a kind of hounding/baiting. Drmies (talk) 20:51, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've noticed a number of personal attacks directed against me since the IBAN began. Specifically on HiLo's talk page. I've drawn your attention to them, Drmies, asking that they stop, but you are a busy person, and doubtless have other matters on your mind.

I've commented on the baiting already. Where are the diffs? --Pete (talk) 21:11, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The diffs are given: edit counts by both of you in the article and the talk page, and your starting that section on the naming issue: first sentence, fourth paragraph of my initial posting. You have left a "What's going on" section on my talk page, the answer to which (if there was a question) is this very ANI report. You also posted "Sorry to bother you again", where you pointed to this diff, and I responded, as did Johnuniq in this very thread. You pointed at a possible IBAN violation (archived, I believe, on my talk page) and I warned HiLo. I do have other matters on my mind, one of which is that I'm getting kind of tired of this thread and responding to your lawyerish comments. And no, I do not believe you have responded in any kind of substance to the baiting issue. Drmies (talk) 23:47, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My point was made before: There is nothing in an IBAN preventing either of us from participating in discussion. The key point is to avoid the other party. Editors do not "own" articles or talk pages, regardless of how many edits they make or who was first. In this case, both of us were active on the relevant talk page before the ban was applied and we have since confined ourselves to different threads. Call it lawyerish, if you must, but that's just a commonsense reading of the relevant policy: "Although the editors are generally allowed to edit the same pages or discussions as long as they avoid each other, they are not allowed to interact with each other in any way."

So where, precisely, is the hounding? Can you - or anyone else - provide a diff that is one party baiting the other?

If it is your contention that HiLo48 "owns" the article and its talk page, then I find that very problematic indeed. So do you, apparently. --Pete (talk) 00:22, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do not contend that, but I am becoming more and more convinced that you posted on that talk page, seeking to overturn consensus on a topic where you had earlier sought confrontation with HiLo (your one edit to the article), in order to pull them out and violate the IBAN--yes, to bait them. And you're doing the same thing here: you know that HiLo is itching to rebut, and it's a good thing they're keeping their cool. You know, in this battle between the two of you I used to think there was equal blame, more or less. I don't think that anymore. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at that talk page, it is quite clear that there is no consensus to be overturned - it is one long argument. My posts there are aimed at finding and presenting reliable sources showing that the name of the sport has changed. As I noted earlier - did you even read it? - there is no point to baiting the other party in an IBAN and then running to AN/I claiming a breach. That sort of tactic is easily seen through and would boomerang if either party tried it. You raised this AN/I discussion, requiring me to come here to rebut the charges made against me. I have stated my case, I have been honest, I have pointed to the relevant policy and asked for evidence. And nothing concrete is forthcoming but irritation. Which I share.

This comes down to a simple point. If the other party "owns" the article and talk page, then say so, and I will refrain from posting there any more. If not, then I am perfectly within my rights to take part in discussion on a topic which attracts me through my interest in language and popular culture. The mere act of posting is not baiting. I didn't mention the other party in any way, I didn't respond, I didn't interact at all. Go me. Go both of us.

And finally, yes, I very much prefer that all parties keep their cool. That's what this whole thing is about. That's exactly what I want. HiLo48 deserves praise for keeping calm and biting his tongue. May he ever continue to do so, and may we all of us continue to be civil in our dealings with one another. Thank you. --Pete (talk) 01:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Am I allowed to comment here? HiLo48 (talk) 07:34, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think WP:BANEX says yes, and Pete already has. Drmies (talk) 18:24, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. What personal attacks? That unsupported negative statement is the typical sort of nonsense that gets posted at AN/I without consequence. I have not communicated with Pete/Skyring since the ban began. I have made absolutely minimal comments about him. That disruptive statement alone is so unhelpful it should demand a serious consequence, quite apart from the other problem being discussed here. HiLo48 (talk) 20:14, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I may be someone who is regularly opposed to HiLo's way of dealing with things, but even when I'm on the opposite side, this is one of the clearest gaming of the system attempts that I've seen in a while - as Johnuniq notes, it is hard to prove that this is intentional, but it is still obviously intentional. Skyring has contributed a miniscule amount to any association football/soccer article, whereas HiLo is far more regularly involved. Skyring being topic banned from anything to do with association football/soccer would be entirely appropriate. And yes, HiLo, you can comment here, since this is an ANI discussion about the interaction ban. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 11:32, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• HiLo48 has a perfect right to present his side of the story in his own words and he shall have no interference from me.

  To those whose mind is made up, there is no point arguing. Think what you will. For my part, I am perfectly within my rights under the limitations of an IBAN to participate in Wikipedia discussions on those topics which interest me, and while football does not, popular culture and language has been my fascination from university, and the question of what a particular sport might be called is an important and intriguing one. The name is changing within Australia and it affects not just the one article, but many others. If an Australian player moves to the European leagues during the offseason, does he play Soccer or Association Football and how do we describe him?

  It is not in my heart to goad or bait HiLo48 into breaking the ban and then pounce around and crow over it. Anyone who knows how Wikipedia works also knows exactly how that would play out here. It would be a pointless exercise and it would boomerang badly. If it happens, then it can be dealt with, but it also seems pointless to discuss something that hasn't happened, especially when other editors are projecting thoughts and motivations into my mind that do not, in fact, exist. "It is hard to prove that this is intentional, but it is still obviously intentional," one editor claims. Well, it's not. I know what's in my mind, and it is not that.

  I have looked carefully at the restrictions and exemptions of an IBAN and I see nothing there to prevent me from continuing my ongoing participation. Looking at the discussion page and archives for that topic, likewise. In fact it seems to me to be a good deal less restrictive than recent interpretations and if it is going to be enforced in a different manner to the words of the policy, then perhaps it is time to reword the policy.

  If anyone thinks that there is any baiting or goading going on, then let them put forward diffs. I'm prepared to stand by my statements. All I ask is that policy be followed, evidence presented, and that fairness prevail. For all parties. --Pete (talk) 17:07, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  Perfect! You've got a convincing air of innocence gently blended with the wikilawyer's prove it! However, this is Wikipedia where the purpose is to build an encyclopedia, not to endlessly debate whether something looking like a turd really is a turd. Is there any reason to imagine that Skyring/Pete's continuing presence in soccer/football issues is required for the encyclopedia? Johnuniq (talk) 22:16, 3 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  From my perspective the answer is no. I am quite familiar with the events leading up to this case. In the past I have been extremely critical of HiLo48, but more recently I have come around to seeing matters differently. To be brief, in my view if Skyring/Pete gets off with a soccer/football topic ban he will be getting off easy. Jusdafax 06:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm reminded of a little kid who stands just 3 inches beyond where a dog's chain end, and, when reminded they were told not to tease the animal, says but you said I could play anywhere in the yard if I stand outside the dog's circle! Earlier in the thread [24] Skyring claims HiLo is monitoring their edits (they know that how?) and they "want the attacks to stop." These are violations of the ban. But the important thing isn't the letter of "the law" (WP:NOJUSTICE), but the spirit, and Skyring is clearly violating it. My first thought was along the lines of topic ban from Soccer in Australia, but I'm concerned that's just kicking the can down the road. Perhaps the interaction ban could be amended to include That means stay the heck away from HiLo48, cause the next time it looks like you're edging anywhere close to him we'll skip the three days of discussion and just jump to the point where we block you, for however long it takes you to get the hint. NE Ent 10:28, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'll make a comment about process here. I'm looking at several editors using language related to their assessment of my motives and thoughts. The comment above is a good one "I'm reminded of a little kid..." Well, I'm not a little kid, I'm well into my fifties, and I'm not as naiïve as those assessments assume. Baiting the other party in an iban and then running to an admin or ANI with a complaint is not a winning strategy on Wikipedia, as I trust everyone here is aware. I certainly am, because I've now mentioned it three times.

I'm seeing guesses from editors here about my motivations and intentions that project "that little kid" onto me, and that's quite revealing. It's quite incorrect, because it's not in my mind to annoy or harass the other party, and I've asked for diffs to show the baiting. which have not been provided. Standing just beyond the angry dog's reach is a lovely image, but not really applicable here, where both parties are editors of many years experience and presumably able to control themselves. HiLo48, if I may mention him one more time in this thread, is not a barking dog and has in fact demonstrated considerable pride in his ability to NOT react. Those of you with experience will know that this is quite something, but some editors are treating him as if he were on the verge of snapping, and me as if I know this and am goading him that last little bit.

Neither of us are barking dogs or mischievous children. We are people of some maturity and we have both demonstrated restraint over the course of this iban. Sure, there have been some minor breaches, but at least on my part all I've ever sought has been a reminder of the rules rather than any sort of penalty.

So, instead of evidence - a deliberately provocative post, weasel wording, actual baiting or trolling or goading - I'm seeing statements based on emotional projection, revolving around little kids and barking dogs. These are actually quite insulting to both parties, and when I compare these imagined motivations against what is in my own mind, they are quite wrong.

Now, having said that, I can see where this is heading, and I'm obviously not going to change hearts and minds here and now, but I will flag my intention to appeal to whatever step is next. Presumably the Arbcom, and in that forum, we will be dealing more with procedure and evidence and less with emotion and gut feelings. There are some questions in my mind about the limits of interaction bans and "spirit of the law", mentioned above. That is intended - and worded - not to be pettifoggingly precise, but to minimise disruption, and I think it has worked very well in this case. Apart from presuming upon the good nature of Drmies with questions and minor complaints, and this current little dramafest, which in my opinion is quite unneccessary and irritating to all concerned apart from those habitual attendees here who cheerfully chuck in their five cents worth of psychiatric assessment. --Pete (talk) 18:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some of my comments have been a bit over-excited, but the essential problem remains—there is an IBAN between two users, and one of those users is widely known as supporting a particular outcome in the soccer/football debate, and has over 300 edits to the talk page, starting in October 2009. By comparison, the other editor has had a very minor involvement, but would now like to take a role that happens to oppose the first user. The community is mostly concerned with minimizing disruption and maximizing benefit to the encyclopedia, and following that principle suggests that the best outcome would result from the second user avoiding soccer/football. Johnuniq (talk) 01:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So. Where's the disruption that you want to minimise? Not trying to be snarky here, just curious if you can point to any at all. Apart from this unnecessary thread, of course. --Pete (talk) 03:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have been following this thread and your previous interactions with HiLo48 for some time but have not felt the need to get involved. However, this post just leaves me speechless. In the vernacular the only appropriate response is to say "don't come the raw prawn here, mate". You are well aware of what you have been trying to do and have been called out for it. Pretending to be all innocent is just not going to cut it. I would suggest that admitting your error and giving sincere undertakings not to repeat them is your only hope of avoiding an enforced Wiki-holiday. - Nick Thorne ^talk 04:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am certainly well aware of what I am trying to do. I know what is in my own heart. And you are wrong. Simple as that. But I ask again. Where is the disruption? In your imagination, it seems. Can you point to anything that has actually occurred? Something outside whatever fantasy you are imagining? Seriously now. Where is the evidence?

That's why I mentioned process above. Wikipedia is based on reliable sources and evidence. We check our facts. We don't speculate, imagine, fantasise and pretend. Apart from AN/I, it seems. --Pete (talk) 05:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Topic ban proposal

Would people please specify a preferred outcome because the advice offered above has not been accepted, and this section is getting too long. A couple of us have hinted that more than a topic ban may be helpful—it might be more realistic to apply an indefinite block until it is clear there will be no further exploratory incursions. However let's just examine whether Skyring/Pete should be indefinitely topic banned from all soccer/football topics and discussions, broadly construed. Is the following correct (not including the views of the two editors concerned):

• No recommendation yet: Bbb23, Drmies.
• Support topic ban: Johnuniq, Jusdafax, Lukeno94, NE Ent.

Please make any corrections or updates required, and I hope others join the discussion. Johnuniq (talk) 11:34, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support ban and/or block. NE Ent 12:04, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Support topic ban for Skyring from soccer/football, because I find NE Ent's analogy cogent: "but you said I could play anywhere in the yard if I stand outside the dog's circle!"[25] The next time Skyring applies his wikilawyering and timewasting skills to this IBAN ("exploratory incursions"), I support a swift indef block. Bishonen | talk 12:54, 4 February 2014 (UTC).[reply]

Given that the discussion has progressed to this point, I boldly went and created a section for it. So to lay it out:-

1. Skyring, who signs as Pete, is hereby indefinitely topic banned from all articles relating to soccer/football. Attempts to skirt/wikilawyer around the topic ban will be met with escalating blocks.
2. Any future attempts to skirt the interaction ban, as viewed by the community, will be met with an indefinite block. The usual exceptions to IBAN's still apply but attempts to game those exceptions will also be met with an indefinite block

Does that about sum it up? Blackmane (talk) 13:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• It's strict but I think it's the only solution. Drmies (talk) 17:20, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• As a general comment, it seems like the general understanding of IBan (outside of this case) is that 1) both editors can edit the same article, but not interact with each other. and 2) commenting in a thread started by the other is interaction 2a) commenting in any thread the other has commented in is interaction and 3) that includes RFCs or other "official" discussions. Would not just establishing that commenting on official proposals, without mentioning the other person or their argument is acceptable resolve the issue, and let HiLo comment on the RFC? Other ways of interpreting IBan seem to be subject to easy gaming - if you can predict which articles/discussions someone will like get their first and its locked out. Yes we can handle that with topic/community bans, but why not just drop the king of the hill game and make IBan deal with actual interaction? I suppose that does makes it a bit more subjective to enforce... Gaijin42 (talk) 17:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

IBAN's are notoriously difficult to deal with. Just last week there was a rather lengthy discussion about an IBAN that is in force and whether there has been violations and/or gaming of it (not going to name parties, but regulars at ANI will know who I mean). I added in the condition "as viewed by the community" for obvious reasons. What one editor sees as an IBAN violation may/will not appear so to the violator. This condition solidifies the burden on a community consensus that a violation has occurred. Against a community consensus that the IBAN has been violated there is no wriggle room to wikilawyer around. Blackmane (talk) 17:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support topic ban and warning - lets do this quickly and move on. Distasteful, but probably for the best. Jusdafax 01:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Support For clarity, I had better sign here although I have supported above. Johnuniq (talk) 02:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Skyring's edits here and here indicate that they just don't get it. Consequently I support a block, but if consensus is for a topic ban and warning I will support that, but I rather think that if we choose to go down that route we'll just be back here once again pretty soon, since Skyring has shown that they are either unable or unwilling to understand that it is not just the letter of the law that matters but its spirit. - Nick Thorne ^talk 09:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Emphasize support of topic ban - Best case scenario: Skyring backs off HiLo altogether, HiLo is therefore able to relax a bit in discussions, Wikipedia gets improved. Worst case scenario: Skyring violates the topic ban or continues to try and skirt around the interaction ban, and gets an indefinite block. Either way, the disruption should pretty much end here. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 19:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• What disruption are you talking about? Apart from this ANI thread, which I didn't start. Seriously now, if nobody can provide diffs or evidence of disruption, then this thing is going to be appealed to a more reliable forum. I posted on a talk page, continuing my pre-iban participation, and I did it without the intention of baiting or trolling. Feel free to compare the tone of discussion in that thread with others on the page. Be fair, please. --Pete (talk) 20:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

*comment I saw this coming from a mile away and the position that this would put User:Skyring|Pete in. However, I don't see any interruption of an IBAN going on here, neither Pete or the parties involved parties are interacting with each other directly. Where is the IBAN actually being broken here? What is actually going on? I don't see a "quick and dirty" fix as resolving anything in this case. No disruptive behaviour has resulted from either of the two open discussions and they have their own direction flow, in fact they are two completely different discussions. I wont bring the other user into this discussion because it's not about them, I just don't see what Pete is doing wrong here by having an open discussion thread. If I've missed anything in particular in the difs for this please enlighten me where this is the case. --Orestes1984 (talk) 01:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• If you're not seeing the violation, then either you've not read the thread carefully enough, or you're just not looking properly. HiLo is well known to be a regular contributor to Australian soccer/association football articles, whereas Skyring is well known not to be. Beyond that, HiLo is actively discussing (in multiple places) the possibility of various name changes involving the articles. However, the real nail in the coffin is that HiLo supports things remaining at soccer (not that I'm saying he actively wants to move it, just that he is questioning various changes of the term); Skyring is very deliberately setting himself up in entirely the opposite position, by opening a thread that suggests that a move to "association football" is enacted, knowing full well that HiLo is prevented from posting there by the terms of the IBAN. This is a blatant violation of the spirit of the ban, as well as a deliberate attempt at gaming the system. Skyring knows it full well, and you can see the smug undertones in some of his posts as well. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 07:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Smug undertones"? I have to laugh at some of the things being said here. Dead wrong, Lukeno94. Rattling chains is not what I'm about. That's mean, juvenile fun, and it's rather disappointing that so many are projecting their fantasy onto me. "Smug"? Geez. Spit on me a bit more, will ya? --Pete (talk) 17:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Meh - as an Australian editor I've had positive interactions with both (my little exchange with Pete during the original IBAN discussion probably not being among them). Like then, Pete seems determined to dig himself into a hole and not see what everyone else is seeing. If it was unintentional, starting a football discussion while under an IBAN with one of Australian-football-editing's most vocal participants is pretty dumb. If intentional, it's deliberately baiting and antagonistic, but I don't think that's what Pete is about. The simple course of action would be for Pete to accept it was pretty dumb and commit to editing in completely different areas. If he can do that then further action shouldn't be necessary. I'd only support action if he can't or won't - I don't think further action is justified at this stage. Stalwart111 20:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I read the original IBAN thread when I inadvertently breached it myself... I could not have expected to have been across that one, particularly when I spent a long spell out with not editing here. No offense to Pete, he seems pretty reasonable. HiLo on the other hand seems less so reasonable... BUT, Pete... SERIOUSLY man... Sometimes it seems you like to dig yourself a good hole. I have my issues with HiLo... But I also know exactly when to shut up and do what the administrators tell me to do.

Inadvertent or not I see both sides of this issue:

1) HiLo has A LOT of cheerleaders for the position he takes up and I could see them deliberately bringing issues to AN/I just to rattle those that oppose his position

on the other hand

2) Either deliberately, or not so opening up a discussion topic in an area where HiLo likes to patrol was more than a little silly... I saw what was going on as soon as the thread was opened. I just have a little faith that Pete didn't do this deliberately. Just my two cents worth...

I don't think Pete deserves a complete topic ban, but I think he should be more wary of inadvertently opening up discussions that he knows full well HiLo cannot contribute to. I'd also loath to see the position put forward here either by interpretation or otherwise that administrators are giving sway to one side of this polemic debate or another... There is already enough accusations flying around and we should all have a little more respect, particularly for admins, which HiLo in particular has at times been in open descent of. I think the current IBAN is enough with a warning that doing something like this again WILL result in a topic ban. I would not like to see a potential voice, one way or another on this matter removed completely and could see how topic banning Pete could be interpreted as giving sway to one particular side of the Soccer in Australia debate. --Orestes1984 (talk) 21:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm grumpy because I don't like being railroaded, but I fully appreciate about digging myself an ever-deeper hole. Story of my life. Stalwart, you've come closer than anyone else here to saying something that resonates with me. Thanks. --Pete (talk) 21:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In your defence Pete, the last time I was dragged up here before AN/I similiar attempts at character assassination were tried on me with incorrect difs which resulted in HiLo48 running away from a boomerang. You should know as well as I do the types of things that go on with HiLo48 and his supporters and you should by now know better to walk into a situation where you can have your pants pulled down like this... Unfortunately, it's just a waiting game to see how the administrators here interpret this one. --Orestes1984 (talk) 21:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If I may offer some advice in my turn? I'd appreciate it if we kept the other party out of this as much as possible. It's my actions under the telescope here, not anyone else's unless they contributed in some way. --Pete (talk) 21:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A good idea, both in the context of this discussion and in your wider approach to the IBAN and editing in general (which, for each of you, really shouldn't be defined by the IBAN anyway). HiLo has a long history in particular topic areas and you have a long history in other topic areas. The areas where you naturally overlap seem few and far between. I'm all for expanding your horizons but as long as you can each expand them to areas the other has little interest in, you should be fine. In this instance you stumbled across one, probably should have left it alone but didn't. As I said before: meh. Dumb, not intentionally disruptive. Stalwart111 05:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, dumb but not intentional, or at least I don't believe so, I believe Pete seems more reasonable than to throw stones at barking dogs --Orestes1984 (talk) 09:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose, as I think the proposal I'm offering below (in the same edit as this comment) probably works better. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 02:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Alternative Proposal

I propose that the existing IBAN is modified as follows: The interaction ban currently in force between Skyring (talk · contribs) and HiLo48 (talk · contribs) is modified to exclude all articles related to association football, broadly construed. This exception also applies to all deletion-discussions related to such articles. This modification would allow Skyring to edit articles that HiLo48 have been editing without hindering HiLo48's ability to edit those articles. It's the least restrictive modification I can think of. (P.S. My proposal basically allows Skyring and HiLo48 to interact on articles related to association football (= soccer) as if the IBAN wasn't in place, and exceptions would apply to XfD/DR as those are not exactly on article/article talk namespace.) - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 02:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• No An IBAN was enacted to avoid pointless drama. What is the point of bending over backwards to provide a mechanism so the two users can snarl at each other in a topic where the issue will not be resolved for a another few years (I gather that "soccer" is slowly being replaced with "football" in some places in Australia, or some would like that—don't know which, and when/if that happens, the articles here will be renamed). A comment above includes "HiLo48 made a total of 303 edits starting in October 2009...", and that shows that Skyring's interest is recent and minor, and need not be accommodated. Johnuniq (talk) 03:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I proposed this because we cannot assume (and probably shouldn't assume) that Skyring is doing it on purpose, on the basis of WP:AGF. Besides, if we take Skyring's initial response to the original request, we can safely assume that it probably would not re-introduce mess, if Skyring indeed only has passing interest. I do not see the harm of doing this. (Besides, remember, just as consensus can change, so can people's interests. - Penwhale | ^{dance in the air and follow his steps} 05:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Categorically no - WP:AGF is not a suicide pact, and given that Skyring and HiLo have plenty of history, assuming good faith is categorically not appropriate here, in the face of other evidence. This alteration is essentially saying to Skyring that he can start doing this at every article HiLo has ever edited, and can essentially render the IBAN moot. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 09:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Resolution please?

It's almost a week. Things have not improved. Can I ask for some sort of resolution please? HiLo48 (talk) 21:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My summation of the restrictions gathered a small amount of traction but I don't think any admin could really call it a clear consensus. I'd say that the only clear point is that there will be a final warning with regards to the IBAN. As for the topic ban proposal, I think there needs to be a much clearer consensus for support/opposing it. Blackmane (talk) 14:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think any closing admin might be swayed by that "Things have not improved" comment. But, apart from this thread, I've done little else on Wikipedia this past week.[26] My attention has been on family matters. So what sort of improvement is the community looking for here? --Pete (talk) 16:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some eyes on this:

Woozle effect (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

would be appreciated, as it's been discussed on reddit and is attracting weirdness and an associated AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Woozle effect. Thanks. — alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I've semi-protected: too much IP disruption. Perhaps someone can check to see if the current version is the best, or if perhaps some unverified content should be deemed trivial and not of encyclopedic value. Drmies (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Eyes on this would be good.

What I want to say is that it is difficult if not impossible for any average Wikipedia user to navigate the enormous numbers of policies that guide Wiki adding. AND YET, I learned a long time ago, that Wikipedias were called to IMPROVE and ASSUME GOOD FAITH not just REVERT.

THE WORLD CANNOT BEGIN TO TELL WIKI how obnoxious your REVERT HAPPY editors are. OR HOW THEY VIOLATE "IMPROVE" and "ASSUME GOOD FAITH".

Nevertheless, the truth is that the page for Woozle Effect is FINE. Google Scholar lists 440 examples of it being used in academic papers. http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=woozle&btnG=&as_sdt=1%2C3

IT is on it's face notable in academia.

BUT the best exact specific precise accurate correct strict rigorous particular methodical categorical rigid way to express that to make every wikipedia editor happy is WAY BEYOND ME.

What I note is that long time wikipedia editors LOVELOVELOVE their revert skills, and then their threatening people with various bans who disagree with that.

So eyes on this page please, because it is clear that the AFD is feminist inspired reddit brigaded vandalism.

And yes, I assume that any edit I place at wiki anywhere imncluding this one will result in a deletions and a threatened ban. Because that's how wiki rolls.

184.101.115.101 (talk) 18:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• "feminist inspired reddit brigaded vandalism"? Whatever. This IP added this section, rightfully removed by Alf--now tell me that this was not an expert usage of the revert skill. Also, no one's threatening you with a ban; you're not being oppressed. Drmies (talk) 18:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not whatever, and this is precisely why you were wrong to insert yourself into it. I documented the reddit feminist brigade of this page at the AFD discussion. You can see it for yourself here: http://www.reddit.com/r/againstmensrights/comments/1wxaoa/discovered_wikipedia_page_with_clear_mra_bias/?sort=confidence — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.101.115.101 (talk) 19:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This was not an expert use of the revert skill." Well, depends on the criteria -- it's a fine revert vis-a-vis maintaining content standards. If part of the goal in engaging potential new editors is to convert them into productive editors, not so much. I'm not saying Alf should have done anything different; while they could have left a more personal encouraging note on the IP's talk page, I'll be the first to admit the expected payoff is fairly low: (meaning that encouraging a random IP often won't be successful, which is not to say it couldn't / can be with 184). NE Ent 12:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• You know what ("you" in general, not the IP editor), perhaps semi-protection is too heavy-handed. If any admin thinks it so, please go ahead and change it or remove it. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 18:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also it should be noted that for all the all-caps about assuming good faith, the IP editor is not showing much of it. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 00:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I don't think that's actually important. Bringing attention to the community of an off-wiki attempt at meatpuppetry is. NE Ent 13:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • That effort, taken by itself, is to be appreciated, of course. But I cringe when someone tells me that, again, the feminists are behind it, or some such thing. It's one reason I cancelled my memberships of the Hair Club For Men and the Men's Rights Movement. Drmies (talk) 17:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:SNOW on Woozle Effect AFD ?

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Woozle effect has had 8 straight Keeps & no Deletes so looks like WP:SNOW.--Penbat (talk) 11:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

No. ES&L 12:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Close it Obvious unanimous support. ⛵ Admiral Caius ⛵ 17:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Why in the world would anyone want to close this AfD early? It was a good faith nomination and civil and productive conversation is ongoing. There's no need whatsoever to rush this process.— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because (as much as it might look like otherwise sometimes) Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and when there is (as WP:SNOW is defined) not a snowball's chance in Hades of there being anything other than a Keep result (which, with everybody there !voting Keep is blatantly obvious) leaving the AfD open for the full week 'because it's supposed to run for a full week' is, in fact, following bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy. At this point the 'civil and productive discussion', no matter how civil and productive it is, is in fact discussion about the article - which is not what AfD is for, it's what the article talk page is for. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:30, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• The woozle page is not without (NPOV) problems, mostly because the source selection is from a fairly narrow field and that's not easy to fix. In particular, the critics of the Duluth model (which itself is of feminist inspiration) do enjoy using the "woozle effect" accusation in their works. Some of the abusive language leveled at the AfD nominator (by experienced Wikipedians to boot) was really uncalled for. This isn't a slam dunk SNOW keep case. Someone not using his real name (talk) 11:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Over the past couple of months, AH999 has been causing problems throughout the encyclopedia and has ignored repeated warnings to the contrary. This user first came to my attention through WP:SPER after having placed edit request templates on multiple non-protected pages. While that's a common mistake I've seen from new users, the behavior has continued despite repeated advice and warnings. In addition, this user has repeatedly attempted to create autobiographical and self-promotional articles (directly in mainspace, through AFC, and misplaced within a Wikiproject - see the numerous speedy tags throughout their talk page). A summary of some of the other issues that this user has caused and have had to be corrected can be found at User talk:AH999#Vandalism warning here (courtesy of User:Redrose64). More warnings from editors like me aren't going to do any good here. (Especially when this user's only two edits to their own talk page have been [34] and [35].) --ElHef (Meep?) 01:07, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment)Odd, I see some good edits mixed in with some subtle, unglamorous vandalism. Lots of WP: PROMO and WP: AUTOBIO, and their talkpage is a perfect example of WP: IDHT. Nevertheless, they seem like a net negative. MercenaryHoplite (talk) 01:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) Concur with the above. User has been given numerous friendly, explanatory, warnings and guidance, as well as standard templates, but continued to add semi-protection templates e.g. this edit after 4 warnings on his Talk page and this one on his User page, as he doesn't seem to read his talk page. Tends to edit intermittently so any sanction would need to be about a week to ensure it is even noticed. - Arjayay (talk) 09:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a need for a WP:CLUE block. Also, they've posted up birthdates of themselves and their partner in "business". Unless that was explicitly permitted by the other part, that should be revdelled. Blackmane (talk) 00:09, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Heracletus has been providing a running commentary of his opinion of me as a person for over a year now ([36], [37]). I've requested that the user refrain from personalizing disputes and focus on the content many times ([38]), but that just seems to encourage the user. I try to be friendly and deal with the user in a professional manner, even when the user is condescending (ie the first paragraph here), but it's quite difficult when they invariably descend into these PA. It has gotten to the point were the user has recently suggested that I am "sick" (3 times!) and a "diva" due to a content dispute on Talk:European Fiscal Compact. I attempted to hat the personal attacks as per WP:RPA, but Heracletus reverted claiming it was "vandalism".

Note that the entire premise of the user's argument that I am attempting to "provoke [Heracletus] into repeating my position time after time" is quite ridiculous. Recently on the very same page I've more than once agreed with the user. User:L.tak shares my opinion on the content dispute, as do all the available sources. (Basically the dispute comes down to WP:NOR. Heracletus rejects the policy and criticizes me whenever I cite it. Heracletus' has come up with an alternative and dubious interpretation of the WP:PRIMARY source treaty text and claims that the official depositary source (who's professional responsibility includes interpreting treaties) is "failing" when they interpret it differently.)

This issue isn't restricted to me. See for example: "retarded", "vandalism", "get some common sense", "expert in illiteracy and bad spelling". Would some kind admin please hat the PA (feel free to hat any of my comments that may have crossed the line) and explain to Heracletus why suggesting that other good faith users are "sick" is not appropriate? TDL (talk) 03:27, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, other than WP:RFC/U territory, is there a RECENT one that would lead us to the conclusion that immediate protection is needed? DP 09:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've got a better idea: TDL can knock off their own personalizing of the argument e.g. when one doesn't have an intelligent argument to make. "trolling". The talk page is whole bunch of content discussion mixed in with mudslinging between TDL & Heracletus (kudos to L.tak for staying on topic in the midst of all that). If you can't come to argreement on the content, try some of the content dispute resolution resources (e.g. WP:DRN). NE Ent 11:31, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@DP: One recent comments is "Again, you act the same. It's sick." Protection isn't necessary, I'm simply requesting that any personal attacks (including any that I'm deemed to have made) be removed to refocus the discussion, because when I attempted this I was reverted.

@NE Ent: Yes, I've suggested DR several times now. I certainly could have responded better to being called names, (and if you click some of the historic examples linked above you'll see that I've been ignoring the user's commentary for over a year) but that's why I hatted my own comments as well as those by Heracletus. And I'm not sure that stating that ad hominems are the "standard fallback when one doesn't have an intelligent argument to make" is quite the same as suggesting that someone has mental health issues. The former is a comment on the merits, or lack there of, of an argument, while the latter crosses the line into purely an attack of me as a person. TDL (talk) 17:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how calling someone's behaviour "sick" as being a personal attack? DP 20:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, where should one start? If any one wants to be serious, he/she would have to take a look at TDL's, mine, L.tak's and Danish Expert's contributions for over a year to really address the whole situation and what has happened exactly. There, one would find accusations of stalking, TDL accusing Danish Expert of original research, mentioning quite a few other wikipedia policies, then opening an AN/I on him, and more recently, TDL mentioning that my opinion is original research, mentioning another 1-2 wikipedia policies and opening an AN/I on me.

Apart from all this, this user claims to have been friendly, by thanking me for something L.tak asked me to do, i.e. fix the bare references on some EU treaties articles as I posted most of them, whereas in the recent -recent for him apparenty by his first comment here- past he had accused me of stalking him, because I intervened in some of his many debates -in again these EU-related articles- with Danish Expert and although I disagreed with Danish Expert, didn't take his side on how Danish Expert is posting original research and needs to get a mentor (at least at first). Then, he proceeded to actually stalk me, after looking up even my block log.

It is however not the only claim he has made: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AL.tak&diff=593993280&oldid=593968317

He apparently opened this AN/I to "try and make [me] calm down a bit". As far as I can tell, opening an AN/I on someone is not a friendly action or something that will not invoke bad feelings.

This user also states that he finds this paragraph:

"The reference data would be the same for all countries, though. I mean the reference values in the criteria. So, the reference values in Template:Euro convergence criteria (2013) should be the same as the ones in the general template... I mean, the reference values, i.e. criteria are the same for everyone, even if it was only checked if Latvia fulfills them. I think this is obvious."

patronising, condescending, even though my comment on whether this statement was obvious or not was not disputing what he had written or was disputed by him later on...

He also somehow kept being unable to understand my points on our last discussion here: Talk:European_Fiscal_Compact#Bulgaria, even though he accused me of writing walls of text, by writing: "PS: if you'd like to shorten debates I'd suggest looking in the mirror. You've generated more posts and almost twice the kb that everyone else in the discussion has combined. Epic walls of text don't help move the discussion along." He didn't merely disagree with my point, but went on to state: "So your interpretation is still not logically possible. I can't believe this has descended into a logic101 lesson..." and "That is inconsistent with Heracletus' interpretation and obviously doesn't make any sense.", which made me repeat and try to define better my position.

This user wrote more recently: "And I certainly was never "acting as you didn't understand my arguments". I understood your argument perfectly well from the very start, but your interpretation is illogical. You've repeatedly (whether intentionally or not) not comprehended what I've said."

I guess calling my interpretation illogical is not personal, it's just an objective comment.

Furthermore, he kept debating and saying these things, while he intended to open an AN/I on me, as can be clearly seen here: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEuropean_Fiscal_Compact&diff=593991470&oldid=593962056 . He first debates what I wrote and then writes:

"As for the rest of your nonsense, keep an eye on ANI." I do understand this is not personal, he's just disengaging and after having the final word, he opens an AN/I. Then, of course, he wonders why I tell him he keeps doing the same thing (i.e. pretending he doesn't understand my point, by having written " If we write the article as [(all the provisions of Title III OR part of the provisions of Title III) AND (all the provisions of Title IV OR part of the provisions of Title IV)] the statement would be true if a state declared any PART of III AND PART of IV (ie Article 3 and Article 9), and hence the entire treaty (including the undeclared parts of Title III and Title IV) would necessarily apply. That is inconsistent with Heracletus' interpretation and obviously doesn't make any sense.",

even though I had explained just above "Obviously by opting in to certain articles in certain Titles, the rest of the articles in those Titles do not apply to this party. (Which is my reasoning as to why while the whole other treaty would apply, these articles, of these specific Titles, to which the state has not opted in wouldn't apply.)"

That of course is done despite having indicated I find the whole issue moot and that I do not wish to engage in further discussion with him and of course having indicated I don't want to feed the diva. But, why do I call him diva? Let's see, from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_feed_the_divas#Spotting_divas.

Argumentative in petty disputes

There is no issue too small for a diva; disputes are more about getting their way than getting it right. They are known to bully their way over "inferior" editors with a panache that befits their status as a diva.

Rudeness to the helpers

Divas can't be bothered by the "little people" and are known to be extremely uncivil to those who are beneath them. If you can't fully conform to the diva's view, you may find yourself cast as a less valuable member of the community.

An entourage

A truly successful diva has a loyal (and usually large) following. Editors who question a diva's behavior often find themselves attacked by a group fervent supporters. Administrator pals are most valued, and threats to block those that step on a diva's toes are effective tools in the enabling process. A diva may often be regarded as literally "the best" editor on the project for certain tasks; and they know it.

Long memory

Repeatedly brings up "grievances" from the past. Doesn't let go of grudges. Nothing is too old to bring up repeatedly. (also known as "User:Heracletus has been providing a running commentary of his opinion of me as a person for over a year now" and then includes the "bad boys" comment and completely "forgets" there's an apology below.)

Hypocrisy

A diva rarely, if ever, admits to engaging in: edit-warring, assuming bad faith, disruptive editing, battling, harassment, making personal attacks, or owning things. Only their opponents do this, and they do it constantly. A diva is so rarely wrong that their extraordinary "specialness" means that no fault could possibly lie with them in a dispute. (TDL and hypocrisy?? No... Just, he writes "I've requested that the user refrain from personalizing disputes and focus on the content many times" and links to this: ([39]), where one may read "And I often wonder if you have ever managed to debate anything on wikipedia with personalizing and attacking." and then, in the same post in a completely objective and impersonal tone, always focusing on the content, "I understand you don't like hearing such criticism, but the solution is to either back up your arguments with reliable sources rather than personal opinions or go write a blog." and " Yes it can be frustrating to be involved in content disputes, but it is quite childish to resort to personalizing disputes just because people disagree with you.". Of course, then, he proceeds: " Back to the content:").

The same unprovocative friendly user commented that my opinion, on the wrinkles he wanted some input on (original: "So there are a couple wrinkles with Bulgaria's ratification that I'd like some input on:") is original research, even though he knows only too well that:

A. He is the one who first questioned the depositary in the very first post ("Could this be an error, as the declaration doesn't mention anything about applying the full treaty from 1 Jan 2014?")

B. That his position about provisional application is also unsourced.

C. That there is no source, other than the primary one, the depositary.

When I confronted him over the term original search, he just completely naturally started stating more wikipedia policies... Suddenly I was too personal and this was not a forum... The same person who questioned the depositary and asked for input, then, wrote this: "Perhaps you're right and I'm wrong, but I have read it over and over again and I just can't see how a reasonable person would interpret the text the way that you do. Even if you are correct, we still must follow what sources say (WP:VNT). Even if the depository is wrong, we still need to report what the depository says because the depository is reliable while you and I are not." Contradiction? Not when it is about stating that every input given (after he asked for it) is original research.

When I confronted him for stating more wikipedia policies and acting in the same fashion (as with Danish Expert, for example), we got into ad hominems and mirrors...

Of course, this contradiction and hypocrisy backed with what he has written is not personal or provocative. In the same fashion that opening an AN/I on some user is not an act against him or his actions. He after all stated that protection is not necessary AFTER the administrators didn't take any measures against me. Should I say I'm deeply moved by this?

Should I mention his hatting the section with the title of trolling? And, then, when confronted about this on his talk page, he turns to AN/I... and he states that he has agreed with me. As if I had accused him of acting when we agree as he does when we don't agree. Then, he accuses me of not accepting WP:OR, while I have always criticised HIS use of wikipedia policies, which usually belongs to this category:

Rudeness to the helpers

Divas can't be bothered by the "little people" and are known to be extremely uncivil to those who are beneath them. If you can't fully conform to the diva's view, you may find yourself cast as a less valuable member of the community.

because he just starts stating wikipedia policies in an attempt to suppress the opposite opinion as going against the rules. When this does not happen, the "less valuable members of the community" (per the essay) find themselves in AN/I. One needs to only search the archives to see this. And my issue is this, yes, a lot of users fail to follow wikipedia's rules, but, it's about the content, the quality of the content, it's not about the rules and just burying the editors into rules.

When someone asks for input and receives a personal opinion based on some arguments, this is not just OR and should not just be dismissed, especially by the same person who questioned the source and started the discussion. I never imposed my opinion on the article without consensus or said we should not follow the sources. But, for this very reason, I hate to be told by the person originally questioning the source and asking for input, that my input is OR. It's input for discussion. If this person wanted sources, he could provide them himself or ask for them. On the contrary, we were having a quite theoretical discussion, on which, even though his writings prove otherwise, he claims no provocation.

In the end, he uses a source I found and posted on the neutral entity of this discussion, L.tak's talk page, even though it invalidates my own argument, to continue the debate and provocation, by writing: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEuropean_Fiscal_Compact&diff=593991470&oldid=593962056 .

Even though L.tak himself found that the new source follows the primary source, the depositary, and even though, I replied to L.tak that I was willing to accept it, despite this, TDL, used the depositary he had questioned in his very first post to initiate this discussion and the source I provided myself to state: "I provided a source (the depositary). Another source that is "dependent on written and/or electronic notifications supplied by the depositaries" doesn't change anything." Furthermore, sources are but a means to his ways, as clearly indicated in the score keeping attitude here: "We're at 1-2 sources for my interpretation, and 0 for yours, hence why I asked for a source." This very attitude proves my point on "Rudeness to the helpers".

All these are reasons why I wrote to him that I find his attitude sick.

Furthermore, based on what I have written, I believe that TDL is gaming the system. It is clear from his post that he intented to open this AN/I and yet, he kept posting in a provocative manner.

Finally, I feel I should address my stated incivility, even though, it considers completely irrelevant issues (apart from L.tak and retarded) and on which TDL had no involvement.

"Retarded" was referring to the format L.tak used to phrase that FAQ number 4 which states that the new source just follows verbatim the depositary, and is probably a really bad expression. "Completely unhelpful way of formatting" would have been a better one. If only all this hadn't happened, I would have probably used something milder.

"vandalism" was "vandalism", as L.tak had removed sources and changed the results of two votes, although by accident as he wrote. However, his edit summary read "spec on consent" which can be read as speculation on consent... He meant specification, probably.

"get some common sense" was about indeed getting some common sense and stop removing a vote's date, as it had been scheduled for that date. and well the German parliament keeps its schedule.

"expert in illiteracy and bad spelling" was when Figureskating after having reverted me twice wrote on my page "Heracletus, I understand that you're a Greek-language expert", which I never claimed myself and which of course I perceived as ironic... I think I pretty much explained this to her, as she also explained to me she didn't mean it that way.

Is there some term for users who keep constant track of even your edit summaries and log them (even when they read "get some common sense") to use them against you on an (irrelevant) AN/I? Isn't this wikistalking? Personally, I have already stated how I find it...

For example, my account is on the line here, and I still cannot be bothered to go through a year's discussions to identify exactly the order of what had happened. I like editing wikipedia on my free time. I like it. I also state my opinion on things I find interesting (sometimes, in a too open or uncivil way). However, I do not accuse people of not following the rules when we disagree and I also don't open AN/I's. This is why I ever got blocked by a certain administrator acting proactively... Even so, TDL has also felt free to use my having been blocked 6 years ago as an argument against me in the past... Heracletus (talk) 21:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Heracletus, all I want is for you to stop badgering with your personal opinions of me every time we get into a content dispute. I get it, you don't think very highly of me. You've made that point loud and clear, no need to repeat it because I really don't care what you think, and reiterating your narrative ad nauseum is neither going to make it true nor make me care. Trust me, I could make a very compelling case for you fitting the definition of WP:DIVA (starting with the hypocrisy of accusing another of being a diva when it was you who initiated this petty dispute by rudely attacking me due to your long memory of a year old grudge (I don't recall even mention NOR to you since last summer)) but aside from trying to score cheap WP:BATTLE points, what exactly is it that you're trying to accomplish with such an accusation?

I've asked you numerous times to stop personalizing things because it's unhelpful to building an encyclopedia and it just drives our discussions off a cliff, but as that hasn't worked I couldn't think of any other options than ANI. I fully admit that I often retaliate when you personalize things and have contributed to the escalation, but almost invariably it is you who initiates. The comment that caused the latest dispute was "I really do wonder if you have ever managed to debate anything on wikipedia without accusing the other person (and yourself) of original research." Prior to that, I was under the impression that, though we weren't agreeing on everything, we were having an amicable conversation. I hadn't said anything even mildly uncivil. Sure I should have just ignored this shot, but when the same sort of crap comes from the same person repeatedly, seemingly without any sort of provocation, and in spite of requests to stop, at some point a reaction is inevitable.

It seems based on your post above that "I don't see much benefit in continuing a conversation on our personal interpretations of the treaty, as this has ventured well into the realm of WP:OR" is what upset you. For the life of me I can't understand what it is about this that could possibly have set you off to the point of taking a personal shot at me. Can you explain what it was about this particular statement that upset you, so I can try to avoid it in the future? I certainly wasn't suggesting that your opinion was unimportant or trying dismiss or suppress your view, just that it's a waste of both of our time to debate things that can't impact the article. By that point we had spent five days discussing it, L.tak and I had tried in vain to explain why the official depositary source was correct, no one had found any secondary sources to clarify the situation, and there was no reasonable prospect of us agreeing. Thus, I didn't want to commit further time to a futile discussion when there was more productive things I could be doing to actually build the encyclopedia.

You keep saying things like "accusing me of original research". It isn't an accusation, nor is it a personal attack, to suggest that an unsourced argument is original research. That is a policy based reason and an entirely legitimate debating point. NOR is "a widely accepted standard that all editors must normally follow." I honestly don't understand what it is that upsets you so much about me citing it. You say it's about "the quality of the content, it's not about the rules", which I agree with 100%. But that is precisely my point: OR is never quality content. Likewise, if you try to make a formal logic based argument, and I prove a contradiction in your logic and hence conclude that it was a logically flawed argument, that's not provocative nor is it personalizing because it has nothing to do with you as a person. Just like if I said 1+1=3 and you replied that this was mathematically flawed addition, that isn't personalizing because it has to do with there being an error in the argument which has been put forward. Poking holes in the arguments of others is fundamental to a debate, but it seems every time I disagree with you, you take it very personally, get upset, and retaliate by making derogatory comments about me and I respond in kind.

Would you be willing to voluntarily agree to stop making personal comments about me during content disputes? If you think I've made a mistake in my argument then great, point it out! Like you, I'm trying to make the article as accurate as possible, so if I've made an error then I want to know. But unprovoked comments like "I really do wonder if you have ever managed..." or "...please don't argue again..." don't help make the article more accurate. They just inflame the discussion and lead us here. Of course, I'll commit myself to the same thing. I'm sure everyone (especially L.tak) would appreciate it if we could stay on the subject of improving the encyclopedia. TDL (talk) 06:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see charges and counter-charges and I doubt many Admins want to weigh all of these arguments to come to some definitive solution (if one exists). It seems like a situation that is better handled at a Dispute Resolution or Mediation process than AN/I as that is a better forum where you can put forth all the nuances of your "case". That is, if you actually want to resolve this situation and not just try to get the other editor sanctioned. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There's been an ongoing issue with User:Smauritius. I will start off by saying that I believe that there is some sort of COI here but whether it's just extreme fandom or paid editing I don't know, otherwise the user is trying in good faith to improve the encyclopedia. Shraddha Kapoor has had problems with this user for some few months now . There have been blocks issued but I don't think that one is nec. in this case, however a topic or article restriction may be. We have issues that the information being added is slanted towards peacock coverage. a look over the last contribs [[40]] will show that multiple people have came in and fixed issues with the article or have tried to explain to the user but they just don't understand [[41]]. I've personally went through this article once already and did a source by source review and removed what wasn't there but a lot has re-snuck back in. I strongly suspect that a great deal of the issue is that English is not this user's first language but it raises the problem of WP:COMPETENCE because the amount of time other editors spend cleaning up is not really justifying itself here. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:52, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Personally I think this user should be banned from editing in article space based on WP:CIR alone. Their grasp on the English language is not such that they should be editing anything. --Laser brain (talk) 16:44, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Relatively recent sockpuppetry is bad (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Smauritius/Archive. JoeSperrazza (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To give you background the sockpuppet was used to pass the article we are discussing to GA sts. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 20:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Before I knew this thread existed, I left a comment on the article talk page that I didn't think Smauritius was capable of editing the article neutrally. My experience with Smauritius is they push the envelope repeatedly until they finally cave on a particular narrow issue. Then, they repeat the same process on another issue. At the same time, the theme is the same, puffery, not that, unfortunately, that isn't typical on Indian entertainment-related articles. I have no problem supporting an article ban (including the talk page), but I'm not sure if there's enough cited evidence for users who are unfamiliar with Smauritius's MO, although the sock puppetry is almost enough standing by itself. Sure, we often give socks another opportunity to redeem themselves, but it makes little sense for them to go back to the article that triggered the socking.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I can understand, the problem I had when writing this thread is that there is SO MUCH to show I didn't really know how to proceed. I did look over their userpage and I didn't understand that this is a person that according to their userboxes is still in High School so that may be part of the issue too. I would encourage anyone to look over the last 500 contribs on the SK page if they have the time it will help them understand the scope of why it's difficult to manage due to the large amount of edits being made. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 02:14, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So, you guys are actually discussing to ban me from editing in Wikipedia, may know why & for what reason?? --- Smauritius ^{diR mWa!!} 12:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If you are asking that question after reading the thread above, then there are indeed WP:COMPETENCE issues. And if you asked it without reading, then the WP:COMPETENCE issues are even more severe. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's not to ban you from wikipedia. This was to restrict you from writing at Shradda K. I will say again that I do not see that you are here for bad reasons but your [command] is causing a lot of problems here. It's pretty obvious that English isn't your first language, you may want to try and contribute on in your own language as it may have a better result. The problem as noted above is that you don't understand why the edits are the problem and we have explained it a few times. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 13:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And what about who contribute to the article, what about i was the major contributor, who almost update half the content available. --- Smauritius ^{diR mWa!!} 13:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Somebody else would handle it; the article isn't yours - and regardless it's that content you've put in the article that is the problem here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly, no one own Wikipedia here, this is what i am trying to say? OK, admitted if i got banned from article and simultaneously block from editing in Wiki, who take the guarantee the article will updated automatically and will reach from B-class to a Featured one, half of editors who are actually opposing to ban me, will disappear? Agree, English is not my first-language, but if you guys provide me creole Wikipedia, i will agree to ban from editing Kapoor. And BTW why ban me from Kapoor (highest edition i made so far), why not from wikipedia itself, if really i'm such a bad editor, why this discrimination stand for. --- Smauritius ^{diR mWa!!} 14:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're missing the main point here: Your English is not good enough to edit articles here. Please stop editing articles. --Laser brain (talk) 14:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, i'm immature, agree, i had try show ownership on the page, agree, English is not my first language, agree, i had contributed with personal attribution. I am not denying it, i will never deny it also. What was the most shocking thing, is that no one came to help/guide me, rather prefer to ban me. --- Smauritius ^{diR mWa!!} 14:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think that you can still offer decent input on the talkpages, the actual writing the article part is the issue. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is also one example where i personally tried to explain what some of the issues are [[42]] Hell In A Bucket (talk) 14:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The lynch-mob never rests. The request contains a single diff, and it is a diff of a request for help made on a Talk page. No wonder Laser Brain wants to ban. Minorview (talk) 19:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is my fault User:Minorview, it is a lot of small edits and the history of the situation why I requested it. This is not a lynch mob atmosphere you can read the English and a look at the talkpage of the article and the article history will show multiple attempts to clean this up. This isn't a situation where you have a really BAD vandal editor, quite the contrary we do have a motivated contributor but the mechanics behind it just aren't there yet. This is a great area where I still think that they can contribute here on the talkpage and give us good references. It also gives them a chance to practice their English (invaluable for ESL learners) writing and comprehension skills without causing readability issues for the article. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 00:22, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are we just going to wait this one out? Hell In A Bucket (talk) 12:15, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to make a comment as an unrelated editor: can we not water down the phrase "lynch mob"? I'm hardly an arbiter of Political Correctness, however there are still people alive whose family members were actually lynched, and I think it's highly insensitive to use it so casually. Ultra Venia (talk) 19:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I accidentally came across a major bug in Flow, which has caused the near-complete destruction of the "Echo" functionality of a large number of editors, despite the fact that they never have edited a Flow-enabled talk page. It would be very easy for vandals to duplicate and extend this, so that Echo is broken for most regular editors ("broken" meaning that neither the red numbers nor the "you've got messages" can be reset to zero/read).

There is for the moment no possibility I know of to either delete or protect the three pages Flow hsa been enabled on (Deletion was deemed unnecessary by the Flow devs, and Protection is believed by them to be enabled here, despite my assurances that it isn't), and there is also no possibility that I know of to disable Flow on these pages (despite it being opt-in on an individual page-base only).

Please raise this at the appropriate pages or with the people we need here. This is urgent. Fram (talk) 15:18, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's being trialled at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Breakfast. I'm concerned about not being able to see the history, to delete or rev/del (although someone did suppress something, see my comment on the page), etc. Obviously we have to be able to do all of this. Dougweller (talk) 15:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yes, there are general reasons why this isn't ready for even a limited rollout, but the argument was that it only could cause problems at these pages. Now it turns out that it causes bigger problems than expected by the Devs, and at totally unrelated places, and that there is nothing we can do about it (and I'll gladly be proven wrong here!). So instead of a principled stance against this deployment (for very valid reasons, like you say), this is now an actual and necessary plea to get it removed ASAP. I love being right, but I didn't want it to be in such a dramatic fashion ;-) Fram (talk) 15:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Wait, does this mean that anyone can add any statement (say, Jack is a dull boy), and then no one can delete it per WP:CSD#G10, WP:CSD#G12 or whatever? This looks like a serious problem. --Stefan2 (talk) 15:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • No, individual posts can be deleted, but not whole pages. Fram (talk) 15:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • So....? Do we expect to be deleting the Wikiproject Hampshire talk page? Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, but if someone creates the "Wikipedia:The WMF are wankers" talkpage with Flow enabled, wouldn't you prefer that it got deleted completely? I certainly would. But we can't, and apparently you don't see the need for it. Fram (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• OMG! OMG! Beta software! Sky is falling! Since WMF is asking for feedback at Wikipedia talk:Flow, perhaps we should give it to them there instead of this here "Dramaboard"?? NE Ent 15:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • ? And your point is? I have raised the issue there as well, but this needs urgent intervention, which I am not certain to get there. Fram (talk) 15:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • You raise a legitimate concern into what I understand is one day into a two to four week trial at 8 am and at 10:18 am open an ANI thread. Not urgent. Quiddity (WMF) said at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Breakfast Please remember that this is early-stage beta software, and the intent of this trial is to get your feedback on what's missing and what needs to be changed. We urge you to give Flow a good-faith try – it can only become as good as you help us make it! – but if you find things not working out, we can stop the trial and return your conversations to a talk page. We'll be asking directly in 2/4 weeks whether you're happy to continue testing, but will greatly appreciate all the feedback you can give in the meantime. Thanks again! (Apologies for not posting a diff, but that "Flow" software has some issues). NE Ent 16:49, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • So we should let a vulnerability remain open for weeks because it is only a trial? I really don't understand your objection here. This was not something that only affected users of these few pages, but every user of Wikipedia. Fram (talk) 20:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • How is that? I didn't even know the trial had started until this thread was opened. NE Ent 20:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • If someone would have transcluded (not substituted) e.g. this page, WP:ANI, to one of the Flow pages, then you would have gotten a notification and Echo would have been broken for you (and many of our admins and experienced editors). So yes, this bug potentially affects every user now, and especially the most prolific (or at least the most talkative) ones. I am not supposed to disrupt Wikipedia to make a point, but it is tempting sometimes... Fram (talk) 21:13, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • So, in other words:
            • No editors were actually affected.
            • No mainspace articles could have been affected.
            • You found a glitch which could have affected many editors that no one on English Wikipedia could actually fix and thought it appropriate to post on a noticeboard with 6000 watchers, rather than the Wikipedia talk:Flow page that you knew was being monitored by the appropriate WMF folk or perhaps, even more discretely, just quietly email them?NE Ent 03:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
              • NE Ent, are you actually reading the same discussion? "No editors were actually affected."? And I posted here and at WT:FLOW, which I already said here and you could have checked for yourself. basically, the only thing correct in yuor statement is "no mainspace articles could have been affected", which I never claimed and is hardly the only reason something may be a problem. Please reread the actual discussions and my actual statements, instead of making things up. Fram (talk) 10:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• • • Fram, if you think asking the community to fix bugs will lead to faster action than asking the software engineers to fix bugs, you're mistaken. It's 8am PST; I'll be talking to people about the bug as soon as they're actually in the office. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 16:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Letting the WMF people know at MediaWiki that protection didn't work certainly didn't have the desired effect at all, on the contrary. I have not the best experiences with the speed that bugs are fixed. Many of the major bugs with Flow were noted before it was implemented here, that didn't speed up their fixing or delay the introduction here, did it? Fram (talk) 20:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • The one you're complaining about and bringing to AN/I certainly wasn't. The lack of response at mediawiki.org was probably linked to you being so rude to a fellow volunteer that you got blocked. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 23:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • If I had been clearly able to protect the three pages, I wouldn't have brought it to ANI. But that problem was and is roundly ignored by the WMF and my "fellow volunteer" who was being rather rude (if your response boils down to "I can't check what you claim, but I know it is wrong no matter what you say", it can hardly be considered civil or coöperative). Of course, being deliberately unhelpful and obstructive is not a problem at WMF / MediaWiki. And ignoring problems because the one bringing hem to light is rude? Yeah, that's a very productive approach. Fram (talk) 10:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm slightly confused by the protection thing. Can't you just protect the pages the way you did for Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page [43] (which seems to be working)? Is there something special about the developer test page that makes it work there but not the other talk pages? Nil Einne (talk) 16:00, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Protection works. I am no longer able to add any comments to Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page. Unfortunately, I am not informed that I can't add comments to the page until after I have written a comment and clicked on "reply", when a red message appears: "An error occurred. The error message received was: Insufficient permissions to execute this action." Ideally, you should be informed in advance so that you won't waste time on writing a comment that you can't post in the end. --Stefan2 (talk) 16:41, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems sensible; I'll throw a bug in. Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 17:48, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, did the Twinkle protection work? I have no way to see this, I don't get a protection log, no pink "you are editing a fully protected page", and so on. I'm glad that it worked after all, and that I had Twinkle enabled (standard protection implementation was not possible). Are the other two pages protected yet? I'll take a look... Fram (talk) 20:33, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

3 quick notes and 1 request: The Notifications bug-fix is now live (details below). The protection-warning message request, was submitted as bugzilla:60909. The protection log message is displaying correctly in my watchlist feed and the other relevant logs (eg). Please unprotect the Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page so that non-admins may resume testing there. Thank you! Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please provide the "delete - protect - move" dropdown menu (and functionalities) on Flow pages. Fram (talk) 10:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, you state that you can see the protection in my log, so that I could know that it had worked. But please check my log now: yuo will see that I jave moved Wikipedia talk:Flow/Test over Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page (which I deleted through the move menu). I got no errors, the log claims I have moved the page, the source page is now a move-result redirect, but the target is unchanged (and doesn't display the redirect source when you follow the redirect). If move doesn't work dspite the log claiming it does, how could I know that protect did or didn't work despite the log claiming it did? Opens possibilities to delete pages beyond all chances of recovery though :-) Fram (talk) 10:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again perhaps I'm missing something but I still don't get why this protection thing is such a big deal. If you wanted to test protection, can't you just do what me and Stefan2 and possibly others did to test it and try and edit the protected page? (In my case after I saw it in your edit log.) Since you're an admin, it won't work from your main account and perhaps you don't want to run the risk of exposing your IP in case the protection doesn't work but you're free to create a new account which be fully in line with WP:SOCK as a legitimate alternative account. With most modern browsers having a 'private window' or similar option, you probably don't even have to log out of your current account to do so and yet can stick to a single browser.

If you really don't want to spend the 20 or so seconds to create a new account which is always going to be useful for tests particularly when you're an admin, even if you're willing to spend than many minutes writing replies here and elsewhere complaining about the protection thing and otherstuff are also planning to run potentially risky tests which could cause major breakage; you're free to ask people here or elsewhere to help you test the protection.

In other words to be blunt, unless I'm missing some and given that it sounds like I wasn't above, I'm guessing I'm not here, the whole 'protection' saga seems to be a much ado over nothing. Yes there were mistakes in the interface but the protection worked, it was easy to test it worked and at least 2 people did so, so it was really no big deal.

Nil Einne (talk) 15:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi folks. The devs deployed some fixes for this. The problematic notification from the large Flow post is still there, it's just being hidden in Special:Notifications, so your Echo notification counter may stick at [1]. They're working on that too, and offer these comments:

To fix it, you can either: 1) Temporarily uncheck the Flow notifications (web) in Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-echo (as Favre1fan93 explains above); or 2) Ignore the [1] for 9 days (a week from Thursday) when we'll get the next version of mediawiki code deployed to Enwiki;

or 3) Copy & paste this code to Special:MyPage/common.js:

importScript('User:Mlitn/MarkAllRead.js');

press 'save', and a dialog will pop-up asking if you want to mark all Notifications as read. Accept that, and it will be fixed. You can then remove the line of code from your common.js again.

Sorry again for the confusion and distraction. Quiddity (WMF) (talk) 02:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As requested by Quiddity above, I have removed protection from. Wikipedia talk:Flow/Developer test page. I have no idea or proof that it is related, but almost immediately, I got a red "1" in the Echo notifications, and when I use that, I receive the standard "Wikimedia Foundation Error: Our servers are currently experiencing a technical problem." page. Coincidence? Flow / Echo combination problem not really solved?

Anyone else having trouble, and anyone with an idea of the cause and solution? Fram (talk) 11:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I was one of those whose notifications were screwed up by the consequences of Fram's test. I eventually worked around it by disabling Flow notifications, but it was a serious impediment to collaborative working. I don't know how many editors were effected in this way, but it is bad news that a software test can have such a wide impact on a live platform.

As noted on my talk page, I think that Fram's test was ill-conceived and should not have been done. However, there seems little good about Flow, and its hassles outweigh the benefits of testing it further. Please can it just be turned off here, and tested in some less critical environment? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you mean WMF's test, instead of Fram's, as Fram was just the messenger here. Unfortunatly as we've seen time and time again (I'm looking at you, VisualEditor), when the Newest, Brightest Idea gets prematurely rolled out, the WMF expects the community to hail it as the Best Idea Ever, and when the community pulls out the torches and pitchforks over the Wikipedia-breaking bugs, it's somehow the community's fault. (Nothing aimed at Quiddity here, who did his best ASAP to fix the problem! But it's the overall culture the WMF projects that is distressing.) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 14:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@The Bushranger: No, I meant Fram's test, which was ill-considered. See my comments on my talk page.

It was also an ill-considered test of software in a premature beta test, but two wrongs don't make a right. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(For the record, Echo works again for me now, had gone up to "5" in the meantime: no idea what caused this or who or what solved this, if it was the WMF person I emailed, thanks!) Fram (talk) 13:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC) Fram at 11:22 on 6th Feb. Having seen such errors myself at 16:37 on 6th Feb, methinks these are unrelated and most likely coincidental. As an anon, I cannot get echo-stuff, and furthermore I have not visited any of the WP:FLOWie betatest pages. The error-messages are HTTP 503 Service Unavailable and have some Varnish cache networking-stuff attached; they are prolly server-sysadmin-stuff, not admin-stuff. Also worth noting, there were some similar proxy-caching-type errors back in December. Hope this helps. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:24, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have been updating a post at WP:ANRFC which provides a single concise list of WP:NFCR's that are long overdue for closing. Armbrust Has made it a point to disrupt that process, he has hidden the section, attempted to remove it, and blocked updates to it on several occasions. The user has demonstrated that he has a lack of understanding in regards to WP:NFCC and zero understanding of how WP:NFCR functions. Can we please stop him from interfering with NFCR? Werieth (talk) 18:56, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And he tends to hide discussions that are raised on his talk page that make him look bad. Werieth (talk) 19:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's nonsense. You disrupt the WP:ANRFC noticeboard by using it to report the WP:NFCR backlog, and you didn't even realise it. In this edit You undone the archiving of closed sections. If you don't know how ANRFC works, than you don't need to post there. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 19:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again you make false statements, I did not revert any closed sections, rather I reverted your butchering of the NFCR section. Werieth (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The nonsense continues. I archived the closed sections; than ordered the requests the same way they are on WP:NFCR (makes checking whether they're closed easier), and than moved it to the bottom of the page (as essentially a new request). Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 19:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You where told to stop editing my comments, and screwing with the WP:NFCR request, I would have removed the closed NFCRs myself, but last time I did that you complained about that. You need to stop editing my comments and leave the NFCR section alone. Werieth (talk) 19:16, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong again. That list is not part of your comment, that's just "is the current list". Also "removed the closed NFCRs" isn't the same as archiving them. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 19:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Per WP:BLANKING I could even remove them, so closing sections isn't an issue. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 19:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I didnt stay you couldnt, I just made a note of your behavior that hides your disruptive behavior. Werieth (talk) 19:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's your opinion. I didn't hide anything. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 19:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Two servings of trout. It's good that ya'll tried to discuss this on Armbrust's page, but at some point one (preferably both) of you should have figured out that you just weren't going to agree. (I've read the conversation but fell like Abbott in Who's on first? "I don't even know what I talking about!") Please go to Wikipedia_talk:Administrators'_noticeboard/Requests_for_closure and try to neutrally frame the issue and get some additional opinions. NE Ent 19:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• First off, seeing two respectable Wikipedians bicker like this is a bit upsetting. Second, I'm not sure that this dispute warrants the level of heat you two are letting off. Now, down to the dispute. I'm not sure that WP:ANRFC is for things like NFCC. ANRFC is really for discussions which are not on any kind of centralized discussion board already. NFCC has it's own centralized discussions. The discussions on ANRFC are generally on talk pages or Wikiprojects where admins who patrol such discussions for closure wouldn't normally look. What we need is more NFCC admins (since Fastily was driven off) and so I think we need to look at some of the users in that area for possible RfA noms.--v/r - TP 21:40, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• As a regular contributor to both WP:NFCR and WP:ANRFC, and in working with both parties, I can see both sides of the argument. There is not enough administrator activity at WP:NFCR, and the hope is that by posting at WP:ANRFC (something that I have done before) would attract more closers. It is my current opinion that this doesn't actually work and that is why we consistently have over 100 open discussions. I would also like to point out that Armbrust does not show any symptoms of WP:OWN, but rather does a fantastic job of keeping WP:ANRFC clean through being an unofficial clerk on that board, doing the thankless job of maintaining that space. I would also further point out that there are also not enough admins willing to make closures listed at WP:ANRFC, although there has been some constant back and forth discussion about how many discussions should be listed there. -- ТимофейЛееСуда. 23:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You meant to say editors will to make closures listed at WP:ANFRC, right? NE Ent 23:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That is mostly correct, there is not, in my opinion, enough editors (admins included) willing to make closures. Therefore the board is always heavily bogged down with closure requests. A good many discussions are not well defined enough for a Non-Admin Closure and therefore do require admins, of which there are not enough willing to make closures, in my opinion. Hope that helps. -- ТимофейЛееСуда. 03:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• (Non-administrator comment) I think that the problem is that there are too few admins who work with file issues. It's the same with WP:PUF and WP:FFD: there are plenty of discussions which are trivial to close but still remain open after several months. Check the FFD pages from November with hundreds of open discussions per page, for example. Many "DI" speedy categories also have a huge backlog. I'm not sure if listing the discussions at WP:ANRFC is going to help. --Stefan2 (talk) 13:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. I'm here to ask for others to look into the recent edits of User:Tenebrae. He started an RFC regarding the selective inclusion of nominations for film awards at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists#Request for comment to which I objected as no clear proposal on how it was to be achieved was noted. I asked on several occasions how the selection criteria would be determined, but received considerable and increasing abuse for asking the same question. The same question, it's worth noting, that others asked also here and here. Now then, that's just a discussion about possible content issues, and sure, it can be heated. Tenebrae then prodded an article in an attempt to further his cause, which was rapidly removed and the discussion he had started moved to the talk page, another venue to discuss his RFC. I responded there that it was inappropriate to pointedly use this article to further his position at the RFC. But then the insults and lies started:

• "just as you'll keep trying to sabotage the process" [44]
• "snarky" [45]
• "obsessive eccentric short-circuited any serious discussion" [46]
• accused of demanding to "follow my orders" and bizarre and offensive references to Colonial England. [47]
• "he'll stalk you wherever you go" [48]
• "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "how crazy and ridiculous you look", "You don't have a job and you've nothing else to do all day but stalk me and misrepresent things.", " Go get a life, please." [49]
• "disingenuous baiting and needling", " deliberately inane questions designed to elicit an intemperate response" [50]
• "childish series of diatribes" [51]
• "you freakish obsessive" [52]
• " snarky belittling and non-constructive, arrogant, "I'm King of Wikipedia" attitude you started over there", "started slinging around your unasked-for advice and insulting comments. You're just a troll with no life. Am I going to be stuck with you like a wart for the rest of my days, Crazy?" [53]

I ask for nothing than an objective look at some of the terms used by this editor to describe me (e.g. "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric") and the false accusations ("keep trying to sabotage the process", "he'll stalk you wherever you go", "started slinging around your unasked-for advice and insulting comments") and determine the best course of action. I have asked him to qualify his accusations or to bring it here, and he has refused, hence my post. My interest in the original topic stems from my tenure as featured list director and active FLC participant, for what it's worth. Being accused of having no life, no job, a troll, Crazy, freakish, obsessive etc seemed to go beyond the normal parameters of lively discourse. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'd suggest a serious step back. Many editors have been blocked for far less then that. I"m not sure about the overall content and if it was provoked but the attacks are pretty overt. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 19:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Rambling Man began a campaign of incessant needling and haranguing at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Stand-alone lists#Request for comment after he asked a question, I answered it, and he responded with an insult, calling the proposal "a waste of time" and spewing sarcastically, "Good luck with that." And rather than leaving it alone with a simple "Accept" or "Oppose," he kept repeating, "this is a waste of time" (19:39, 22 January 2014) and just continued to bully and dig in, saying, in essence, I didn't have the right to ask a question he disapproved of, because since he didn't like it, then it must have been "a waste of time."

When I explained my approach — common with project management — of first seeing if an issue even existed before trying to find solutions, he became insulting, saying this was a completely invalid approach because "every project manager I know gets paid to do whatever they do, generally ineffectively." Why would anyone attack a cautious approach that way, especially when the recommendations for changing guidelines says to do it cautiously?

He then began making fun of the RfC, asking deliberately inane questions about what my plans were about listing awards for "films like Titanic" as opposed to "films like Primer." And there's so much more, culminating in his following me to another, unrelated talk page and, with no provocation or cause, to start insulting my approach there even even though the point I brought up there was over and done with. He's been deliberately baiting me, and now he's hounding me and haranguing me for days without letup, and he's surprised now that someone calls him out on his obsessive, stalkerish behavior. --Tenebrae (talk) 19:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. And was any of it a justification for calling using terms like "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric"? Nope. You need to stop, in fact you need to be blocked for so many deliberate and overt personal attacks. As for your introduction of yet another lie, "saying, in essence, I didn't have the right to ask a question he disapproved of, because since he didn't like it, then it must have been "a waste of time."", please prove this. I never said you had no right to ask anything of anyone. I simply said you needed more information on how you would implement it. As did other editors. Also note, the "talk page" which Tenebrae claims to be "unrelated" is in fact "directly" related, as I demonstrated above. The lies keep on rolling... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You've been the one following me around and refusing to stop baiting me and insulting the very question I asked. You think you can belittle and insult other people' suggestions over and over and then stalk them to another page and continue to do it, and that this is OK? That you should be allowed to behave this way with impunity? If anyone should be blocked, it's you. Go to my user page and see the many commendations other editors have given me for being collegial and constructive. Editors like you who attack and behave arrogantly are in no way, shape or form helpful to this encyclopedia. And following me around? That's the last straw. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You opened an RFC, I replied. You said you'd go off and prod/AFD things you thought were non-notable, I disagreed and commented. Where else? Come on, answer the question, where else? And you now feel completely happy with using terms like "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric"? I don't care what anyone else says about you, you should be blocked for personal attacks. Simple as that. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see. You call me a liar, and that's OK. You bait me, you deliberately ask inane questions to sabotage a discussion you don't like, you follow me around to another talk page, and that's not attack behavior? There are other ways to attack than name-calling, and you are certainly guilty of instigating this exchange from your very first "oh you're wasting everyone's time" and your gratuitous, sarcastic remark. That's fine and proper behavior, eh? Not where I come from. You should be ashamed of yourself. --Tenebrae (talk) 20:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You lied, you accused me of stalking, not true. You accused me of asking "inane questions to sabotage a discussion I don't like", not true. Prove it. I edited one other page where you clearly were making a point, which failed. Secondly, it's all very well to whine about the fact you personally didn't like the questions I had asked (which other editors have also asked you) but there's simply no excuse, zero, none, NOT ONE, for calling me "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric", "wart" etc. See WP:NPA. And you're still quite proud of it by the looks of things. Last time I looked, WP:NPA was a policy. Disgusting behaviour. My last post here. Feel free to once again get the last word in, it would be instructive if others could comment on the gross personal attacks, including those passing judgement on my mental faculties, my personal life and any disability from which I may suffer. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again with the demands, again with the relentless haranguing. Anyone can go to the discussions on the two talk pages and see for themselves your baiting and your needling. You actually believe what you're doing is perfectly normal — that calling someone's proposal "a waste of time" right out of the box is acceptable behavior. That calling project managers a blight because you, personally, don't get along with them, so a cautious, two-step approach is unacceptable to you. You can't just keep digging at other editors and belittling their very questions and pronouncing that because you wouldn't do something a certain way that anyone doing it that way is wrong. And that Titanic / Primer thing was inane. It made no sense. You attacked me with your attitudinal declarations and criticisms of the way I asked a question. No — it is not alright to keep going after and going after someone and following them to another page to criticize them there. Deliberately provoking someone you disagree with until you get them angry is wrong, wrong wrong. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Disability? Who brought up anyone's disability? That's completely out of left field — and a transparent attempt at smokescreening for sympathy. For the record, no one said anything about disabilities. This is part and parcel of the same tactics you used on the talk pages. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• "basement-dwelling brit-twit"?? "freakish obsessive"?? Wholly inappropriate, even if you do believe you're being stalked. You're NEVER permitted to make those kind of personal attacks, no matter what. Handle possible issues (which I cannot see stalking, by the way) on an appropriate noticeboard. As Tenebrae was given sufficient opportunity to retract their statements, but have continually expressed that they were somehow permitted to say these things, there's no choice but to protect the project and its editors for a wee 24 hours period of time. It's been a few years since Tenebrae has begged to be blocked - and they did it again DP 01:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• So, after days of being put down and belittled by TRM, with comments such as "while I'm certain you can read and understand English", and after both editors were told by another editor the best thing for both of you to do drop the stick and move on. You'll thank yourself later for being the bigger man., we block one editor? The editor, incidentally, as administrator is expected to follow the principle Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/C68-FM-SV#Decorum_and_civility Administrators and other experienced editors should especially strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another.? NE Ent 03:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I know that many of the people that lurk on these boards lack basic competence but could I ask you to at least post diffs correctly and post them with context? The first diff you post is entirely irrelevant, the second diff is all very well but entirely misses the point that the subsequent post at that talk page entirely backs up my position. Your third link (much better to pipe these, by the way) doesn't head to the section you (presumably) were intending. If you're going to hang around here and criticise, at least do it competently. I'm befuddled by your user page claim that you would prefer to be "known by the quality of my contributions" when it's taken you nearly two years to make your last 250 main space edits. I guess hanging around and chatting is what you'd prefer to be "known by"? The Rambling Man (talk) 17:37, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Enough, TRM. What NE Ent is or isn't known by is irrelevant to the question at hand. Even if you were attacked before, that doesn't give you license to continue attacking other people now. Cut it out. Writ Keeper ⚇♔ 17:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Sorry, I feel that I must defend myself, and that includes defending myself against bad links, out of context links and generally poorly behaved contributors at this noticeboard. You shouldn't try to censor that. This place needs a shake up and some of that starts with the purpose of some editors at this Wikipedia. I'm sick of being attacked one-sidedly by some here, allowing the "weak and needy" to continue to abuse bans and make multiple offensive personal attacks. Do something about it. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"This place needs a shake up" and a request for admins to "do something about it"? What exactly are you proposing, The Rambling Man? Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 23:52, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• On occasion I've asked myself the last few weeks if TRM wasn't trying to figure how much incivility/condescension an admin needs to utter before getting blocked, and the very start of this thread seemed like it was going to be a test case. But this here, well, I have to agree with TRM (sorry Ent): the crucial "good luck with that" might be dismissive in a different context, but here it's not to dismiss the person, only the proposal, since an RfC without a proposal doesn't stand to gain much traction or be very useful. Now, TRM could have disengaged earlier, should have disengaged earlier, but I think Tenebrae has, unfortunately, gone way too far. Drmies (talk) 04:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am about 80% of the way to calling baiting on this incident and symmetrical blocking, but I have a large possibly 7-year-old ongoing copyvio sockpuppeteer pattern to follow up on, and need to go home soon anyways. I would strongly urge admins to review the degree to which TRM may have provoked Tenebrae. Even if Tenebrae was the one across the bright line, baiting behavior is in no way OK and is by both policy and precedent actionable, and in this case it seems like NOT acting may set a particularly bad example. That said, I am not in a position at the moment to finish following up to a complete conclusion due to factors above, so review and make up your own minds, please. Thanks. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well since you're trigger happy with blocks, and have blocked me erroneously before, I expect you'll go ahead without any justification. I really don't want to edit in your world where you think I'm provoking someone by asking them to answer some simple questions (and no, not "inane" ones, a very good example is this Titanic/Primer instance - all I wanted to know was where the line would be drawn in Titanic awards as it would no doubt have received dozens more than Primer) and that would equally justify a block when that person calls me "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric", "wart" etc. I fail to see how asking for simple questions to be answered is considered "baiting". Please also note that several other editors at the various venues this discussion has spilled over to have asked questions very similar to mine. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think Drmies said it well, that one of you should have disengaged way earlier. I agree with Georgewilliamherbert about Tenebrae being "across the bright line", but WP:CIVIL is a policy as well as WP:NPA. Even if you think an editor's comments are ridiculous, we are all supposed to "participate in a respectful and considerate way". The personal attacks were over the top, but there was a shouting match that had led up to that point, when someone could have just walked away. Erik (talk | contrib) ^{(ping me)} 12:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

TRM, if i wasn't clear enough, I agree that the question/comment was fair, and grounded both in experience and judgment--that's not the part that concerns me. This comes on the heels of a very bitey response on ANI to a comment on Philip Seymour Hoffman (closed here) where again you were right, sort of (editor could have checked for protection and ITN, maybe, but possibly the plaintiff was on the run and their good faith should not have been doubted), but the tone of the response clearly rubbed a bunch of people the wrong way. Just saying. Drmies (talk) 15:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Understood Drmies. I still, somehow, fail to understand how some of those here equate me asking many pertinent questions about an RFC with me being personally attacked about a dozen times in a day. Perhaps those looking for a "symmetric" ban are quite happy to see me being called "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric", "wart" etc. In other news, I was unaware that ANI was a chat board for recent deaths (WP:AN would seem more appropriate), but the edit I made was based on the fact that I would have assumed a competent and experienced editor who knew of the existence of such a place would have looked to see the situation with the Hoffman article, it was already protected, maybe two hours earlier. I even went on to have a proper group virtual hug with Tryptofish. The fact that Wikipediocracy and Lord Brad (himself) got wind of it it is pure (and meaningless) trivia. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I can't speak for them. If you're anything like me you're also convinced that the rest of the world is wrong. Sure, AN is a better venue for the note, but hey, it's all in the phrasing. And I tell you what, next time I conceive of a problem and I'm at the YMCA, waiting for swim practice to be over, with spotty internet/phone access, I'll post on ANI too--it's the best place to quickly demand attention. It's not those kinds of notices that make this place a less-than-happy place: it's the interminable discussions by editors who write too much on topics that really aren't all that--wait, that's me. Drmies (talk) 19:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but that has no relation to the ongoing personal attacks that this user is subjecting me to, including calling me "an abusive obsessive", even despite being blocked for personal attacks. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ongoing personal attacks

Despite the block, User:Tenebrae uses his talk page to continue the personal attacks here, calling me an "an abusive obsessive". Obviously after his previous insults, in the last 24 hours, including "freakish obsessive", "Crazy", "troll with no life", "basement-dwelling Brit-twit", "obsessive eccentric", "wart", this is not unexpected, but it should be considered as this AN/I develops. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I left a note warning that continued poor behavior will lead to an extension of the block. -- John Reaves 19:25, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Also, can't you just leave it be? What do you care about what Tenebrae says on their talk page? Drmies (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, why would I not care if another editor who has been blocked for personal attacks calls me "an abusive obsessive"? What are you talking about? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia discussions frequently show that when the negativity is targeted at oneself, it is perceived as more serious than when someone else is the target. --Orlady (talk) 20:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How useful. I thought being blocked for WP:NPA and then continuing to engage in personal attacks was pretty obvious to gauge, but maybe this is why an/i is a drop zone worth avoiding at all costs. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:22, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just an observation based on personal experience. For example, I have been informed that it was entirely reasonable for another user to go around Wikipedia labeling me with words like "evil" and "hateful" because I had the nerve to criticize that user's articles for things like "original research" and "excessive quotations of copyrighted text" -- and that it was unreasonable of me to object. That experience and others have left me with the impression that, for many members of the Wikipedia community, the key determinant of the seriousness of a personal attack is whether or not they were the target of the attack. --Orlady (talk) 16:38, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Orlady, you're talking about someone who went around and labeled you. I think that's much, much more blockable than someone saying some stuff on their own talk page while blocked. Drmies (talk) 17:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but but a number of other users expressed the view that his statements were justified because I had criticized his articles, that I should just suck it up, and that blocking him would be an over-reaction. I've seen similar reactions when other users were the targets. I've come around to the opinion that we all should take a harder line against personal attacks, wherever and whenever they occur. Not so much a comment on this particular case (which seems like it may have satisfactorily concluded) as a comment on the larger context. --Orlady (talk) 18:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:AirportExpert has repeatedly uploaded third party images of airliners copied from websites, without any indication that such use is permissible, and indeed sometimes in the face of clear language claiming copyright. See File:Barq Aviation L-1011.jpg and File:Air Trust il62m.jpg for two current examples, if they have not been deleted; the latter is a repeat. I don't claim any great expertise in image copyright, fair use or non-free use matters, but a pretty serviceable rule of thumb for me has always been, "pictures taken by other people that you find on the internet are presumptively copyrighted and aren't fair game for uploads" (absent an appropriate license or fair use rationale). I've had a couple of exchanges with AE about his liberal re-use of third party images, see my Talk page, but he has continued to upload them. I raise the issue here because either 1) my understanding of these issues is incorrect and I'm overreacting or 2) AE is a repeat infringer and warrants a stronger warning than I seem to be able to supply. (NB: AirportExpert previously contributed under the name of Msloewengart, where additional copyright / licensing issues appear.) JohnInDC (talk) 21:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Their edit summaries (and edits) at Lockheed L-1011 TriStar also show a complete lack of understanding of how Wikipedia's attribution policies work. (For instance "There is no need to cite information that is received from other Wikipedia articles".) - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:30, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I do a fair amount of copyright work and your rule is a good working rule. The parenthetical comment is important - I occasionally run across people over-reacting and missing that a site had a CC license for the text, or a Flickr image had an appropriate license, so I just want to emphasize (if others are ready it) that the parenthetical comment is important.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, crap. We had a long-term abuser from years ago who did this as a serial pattern, uploading dozens and dozens of aircraft images they scraped with false credits, across six or seven accounts I found. I can't recall the name... Moonriddengirl, is this ringing a bell? (poke) Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Verybluesky (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was one of them. I'm looking for the rest. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:27, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Aha. ANigg (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). See also Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/ANigg/Archive, Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of ANigg, Category:Suspected Wikipedia sockpuppets of ANigg. Account created in 2007 and commenced copyvios in 2008. Seven known socks, plus Verybluesky matched the pattern but the SPI data was too stale by then. Verybluesky was created just a few months after the block of Skyfox265, the last SPI confirmed sock, and duck test passed a match. Reviewing ANigg sock edit patterns, AirportExpert pops like a flashbulb... But is four years since Verybluesky was zapped, having been created in January 2014 ( Special:Log/AirportExpert ). Crap. Assuming it's him again, and not a false positive match, where has he been for the intervening four years, and what myriad damage has he left us from those four years? .... Aaarrrrgggghhhhh.... Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Msloewengart, now AirportExpert, was created in December 2013. It should be noted that AirportExpert seems to have no understanding of WP:V/WP:N/WP:RS, if that helps one way or the other. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ANigg didn't either. I'm going to mail functionaries and ask to what extent SPI results from 2010 may still be accessable to see if there's any match that could be made, or if anyone remembers info that far back. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 04:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

AE was himself a sock, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Msloewengart/Archive. That being said, while I don't know a ton about image copyright rules, I do have a decent nose for socks and to me, AE and his predecessor edit with a different tone than the ANigg. Plus, while the subject matter is a bit arcane, it wouldn't altogether surprise me that Wikipedia might draw in more than one clueless / determined airplane anorak. Still a CU might be helpful, if possible - JohnInDC (talk) 11:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Verybluesky seems more like AE - not very communicative, lots of edits and tweaks to articles about charter operations. JohnInDC (talk) 12:11, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Georgewilliamherbert, did you get a response? Is this being pursued further? :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 12:27, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Response was that records are not usefully kept past three months, so we are out of SPI luck. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 17:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

•  Checkuser needed to evaluate this thread. There is a prima facie case and a sock/sleeper check seems very well warranted.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Tis gone. --Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 23:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. The addition was here and should be deleted from history as this goes beyond any WP:BLP violation I've ever seen. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply] Removed, and please don't post such issues here (as is advised in the large bold letters in the pink box at the top of the page when you hit edit). It only serves to ensure hundreds (thousands) of additional eyes can view the material before it's removed.--Jezebel'sPonyobons mots 23:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply] The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• The root cause of this complaint was a technical flaw. "There is now no way to know that they were in that cat except by looking at the article history of every article in wikipedia...." I have personally run into the same missing feature, for AfC-related categories: you cannot tell which articles were in a category last month (the view-history button shows edits to the *template-code* not the insertions/removals).

  I realize that AN/I isn't the place to request new mediaWiki features, but in the interests of preventing future AN/I threads like this (which come up related to e.g. edit-wars over musical genre categories like "soul music" or which countries are in "eastern europe"), can somebody here suggest a place for this technical lack to be discussed? Feel free to use my talkpage rather than here, if that is preferable. Thanks for improving wikipedia, folks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I previously reported this spam only account on the spam noticeboard weeks ago with no action taken. the Veemalaysia (talk · contribs) is back spamming Malaysian location articles with advertising links. LibStar (talk) 07:01, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned with Pigsonthewing (talk · contribs) and his view of BLP. He has been creating a whole heap of unreferenced BLPs, examples include Csaba Sógor, Franck Proust and María Muñiz de Urquiza. All three articles are now referenced - but the references have been added by other users. Pigsonthewing seems to be on some kind of mission to churn out as many of these poor, BLP-violating articles as possible, and I view his editing pattern in this regard as disruptive as he seems to be expecting others to clean up after him. Despite me raising the matter at his talk page 48 hours ago, he continues, with the latest, on Salvatore Caronna, containing one 'reference' so poor that it is basically unreferenced. As a minor issue, you will also note many of the articles containing basic formatting errors, further evidencing that Pigsonthewing shows little care for the articles he is creating. My request for him to add a basic reference (something as simple as a bare URL link to an online biography) to the article before clicking 'save' does not seem onerous. GiantSnowman 17:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• For such an experienced Wikipedian, these actions are very troubling. I think the creations are linked to a message on his userpage; "I am working on the European Parliament project over the next five days and shall have limited opportunity to edit here." My guess is that he is just churning these out and intending to come and fix them later, but that doesn't sit well with BLP at all. I've read his comments in his talk page discussion, and this is incredibly concerning; it's an atrocious response to a genuine concern, and shows a tremendous lack of interest in following policy. I wonder if Pigsonthewing has ever read WP:BLP? Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• I have a tremendously low opinion of unsourced articles (I am in favor of deleting them immediately, regardless of subject matter), and an even lower opinion of people that create unsourced articles (with the caveat that if the creator has only been here for a week, they might not know better). Now that he is aware that users consider this a problem, and now that we know that he doesn't intend on handling the issue constructively, I recommend that Pigsonthewing be blocked for disruption if he creates another unsourced BLP article. Sven Manguard Wha? 19:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• I wouldn't create something like this but to call it a BLP violation is putting it a bit strongly; the first two Google hits confirm. Drmies (talk) 20:57, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • While not a "violation violation", the fact is that all new BLP articles are required to be sourced, full stop; while in that particular article's case you could say it's technically sourced, the other three linked in the OP don't even have that and would be instantly - and justifiably - {{Blpprod}}ded. While I can understand Andy's desire to have all European MPs bluelinked - and we should - creating substubs like that is...inexplicable. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 23:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it's an important requirement they be sourced and concerning her is not taking the time to do so. Looking through it's probably best to merge these all into a list, as most don't appear to have anything else worth saying (i.e. a biography) and parroting a self-written bio is probably not a good idea. --Errant ^(chat!) 23:41, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• The project is Wiki Loves Parliaments / European Parliament:

"We now have the opportunity to visit the European Parliament in Strasbourg in February and perform a photography and editing project for the 764 MEPs there. In particular as the next elections for the European Parliament are upcoming in May, these new articles and photos are under a strong focus of the public."

If these articles are going to be "a strong focus of the public", the public isn't going to get much information from these sub-stubs. But maybe the MEPs who are up for re-election (or their aides) will nip in and fill them out? The prospect of getting their own articles in Wikipedia before the elections may have helped spur the MEPs to grant access for this project. Nothing wrong with that per se, but surely the requirement isn't to create an article literally within 30 minutes of taking the MEP's picture as was the case here? I don't understand the rush. Voceditenore (talk) 11:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm struggling to see how this post is actionable. Certainly you can't be calling for administrative sanctions against someone for creating stub BLPs? If you see one floating out there without references, prod it and it will be deleted per policy. My impression is that these are being created with high likelihood that they will be fleshed out in the short term. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 16:02, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• It is utterly inappropriate to create a whole host of unreferenced super-stub BLPs. This is not a complaint about "stub BLPs" (these are one-liners), and there are far more than just one being created without references. For such an experienced Wikipedian (one with 110k edits at least), this is completely inexcusable, as his response to the case has been. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:49, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• From an established user creating articles in this type of condition is unacceptable. They are fully aware of our policies and a view to come back to them simply isn't good enough, should be left until they have the time to do it properly. And the part of the reply by him saying Your alternative is to not be a dick is entirely uncalled for and certainly doesn't address the clear issues here.Blethering Scot 20:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Ah well. Those stubs are really not good and very disappointing--but it can be argued that we're better off with them (I'm not saying I subscribe to that argument). The initial question about them was fair, and then stuff goes downhill, with a bit of support from "helpers" on both sides. Andy calls Snowman a dick, Snowman goes to ANI. But try as I might I cannot find where our BLP policy forbids a BLP without sources from being created in the first place. (That a sourceless BLP can be prodded doesn't mean a sourceless BLP cannot stay.) So no measure will be taken against Andy, and unfortunately his stub creations and the subsequent overreaction (this very thread--sorry, GS) is just one more unpleasant experience for all involved. Best thing to do for all involved editors is to turn some of those articles into DYKs; that's the only thing that will make you feel better. Drmies (talk) 03:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm sorry but to say this is a "overreaction" is unfair, numerous editors seem to share my concern about this editor's lack of regard for BLP. GiantSnowman 11:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Agree with Giant Snowman and count me as another concerned editor. If you create a series of unreferenced BLP's and you have 110k edits, you are way out of line. I don't care what policy or lack of it says, common sense in my view says it is just selfish, and the name calling by Pigsonthewing compounds the attitude problem. As far as editor and admin action on this issue, since it appears to be ongoing, I'd be willing to look at a ban on new BLP's for Pigsonthewing as a remedial step. I further find it troubling that there has been no response here. I'd call it gaming the system. This all approaches a protective block, as I see it. Jusdafax 12:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I would support an indefinite topic ban on the creation of all new BLPs, to remain in place until such time as Pigsonthewing can understand they fully understand the policy and the problem. GiantSnowman 12:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While it's not quite the "Paris is the capital of France" quintessential wiki-example, saying in The Age of Google "María Muñiz de Urquiza is a member of the European parliament" (EP) is pretty darn close. Has Andy falsely accused anyone not a member of EP as being one? I'll quote part of WP:BLP: "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be explicitly attributed to a reliable, published source, which is usually done with an inline citation." (emphasis original). Is Muñiz de Urquiza's membership in EP actually being challenged? NE Ent 12:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• However that ignores the fact that all BLP articles must have one reliable source, it also ignores his questionable reaction to being brought up on it. Someone with his longstanding should clearly know better on both counts. Their is no need or urgency to create these articles in this state.Blethering Scot 12:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• "all BLP articles must have one reliable source" -- wp:blp says that where, exactly? NE Ent 13:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with NE Ent at 12:46. Cut Andy some slack here. He's a very busy, highly experienced contributor, who generates very solid material -- as well as launching initiatives like WP:WikiVIP, which really caught the media imagination.

Currently he's trying to get a lot of stuff done in the European Parliament, as well as give a good impression of WP to some important opinion makers. Can we please therefore show a bit of trust in an editor with a long and excellent track record, and leave him to get on with what he's doing. If there are still problems in a week, then by all means we can come back to it. There's a lot he will be aiming to do in a very short period of time with this EU Parliament outreach, in a foreign country with contacts he needs to make and build as he goes along. So let's get out of his way. However stubby these articles may be in their initial transient state, there is every reason to be confident they are likely to evolve rapidly, and long-term issues are unlikely. Jheald (talk) 13:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let me add that Snowman's objection to Salvatore Caronna was paricularly absurd. The guy is an MEP, so clearly notable; and, while the article was only a micro-stub, it's content was sourced by the reference given. If you're introducing Wiki to a group of people, a stub like this can be exactly what you need as a baseline, to then show the article growth process (as well as giving a basic active URL that's then in place for any automated or semi-automated tools you may be then using).

Again, Pigsonthewing is a very experienced editor, doing (yet again) important outreach work. So let's give him some trust, and the chance to get on with it. Jheald (talk) 13:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I'm sorry, but to even remotely compare the widespreadness of the knowledge of an MEP's name/role to Paris being the capital of France is utterly absurd. Almost everyone knows that Paris is the capital of France. Many people, myself included, have absolutely no idea who these people are, and there is absolutely no excuse for creating an unreferenced BLP, because it takes 10 seconds to dump in an unformatted reference, thus negating the problem. If you don't have enough time to reference a BLP, then either create it in userspace, or do not create it at all. I cannot fathom how any of you are defending these actions. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:31, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is on a crusade to add material about an Irish performer calling others homophobic, where there is an ongoing discussion at WP:BLP/N at Wikipedia:BLP/N#Irish_homophobia_controversy.2C_3_biographies_that_need_oversight

This user specifically states:

The controversy, which is the entire purpose of the article, is that individuals who promote discrimination against homosexuals in Ireland were able to exploit Irelands anti-defamation laws in order to censor Rory O'Neill and get a cash settlement from RTÉ. THAT is the controversy!!! So please DO NOT change the article to read otherwise!!!!!!!. Whenever this issue has been documented in the press or discussed at a governmental level it has always been about the controversial decision of RTÉ to censor O'Neill and give money to the claimants. So we should all be able to see why it is that that is the controversy worth documenting here on wikipedia. If Collect is determined from keeping the article from reading as such, then Collect must have a personal agenda to keep the controversy away from John Waters. But unfortunately it is not up to Collect to decide something like that.

The issue is over homophobia so it should be addressed as such for all involved. Those involved are Panti, John Waters, and Breda O'Brien. If someone is trying to conceal the fact that this is an issue over homophobia accusations, it should be easy to see that person's agenda. If someone is trying to re-word articles to avoid the word homophobia, when the word homophobia is CENTRAL to the entire event, then it goes without saying, that that person is intent upon concealing information vital to the article. Homophobia is the central element of the entire events with which Panti, John Waters, and Breda O'Brien are concerned so it should be addressed as such

The edits at [63], [64], [65], [66], [67], [68], [69], [70], [71], [72], [73], [74], [75], [76], [77], etc. show a clear obsession and desire to label living persons as homophobic, viewing it as something of an obligation to so label living persons, and decrying WP:BLP as not applying to such accusations. Collect (talk) 18:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The issue of individuals being called homophobic is CENTRAL to the article. Tbrambo (talk) 18:13, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• No, it isn't, and there is no case where this is valid. I suggest that Tbrambo either stops this crusade right now, or gets indefinitely blocked, because they appear to be a very strong net-negative at the moment. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lukeno94 have you not read any of the citations? Have you not taken the time to educate yourself on the fundamental nature of this controversy and why it is being written about in the first place? Of course they have to be called "homophobe" THAT'S WHAT THE ENTIRE CONTROVERSY IS ABOUT!!! The controversy of Panti, John Waters, Breda O'Brien, and Iona Institute is about the fact that they were called homophobic, O'Neill was censored, they were paid money and then A LOT of people, including individuals in the Irish Government, European Government, and general public, though this was a really controversial thing. So tell me WHY should homophobia not be used in these articles, when the entire article is about them being called homophobic?? This is CRAZY!!!! Tbrambo (talk) 18:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This user is determined to avoid the word homophobia when concerning John Waters and Breda O'Brien. User seems to have a personal agenda to water-down the documentation even though the central theme of the controversy is about homophobia, censorship of comments about homophobia, and monetary payouts to individuals that are accused of homophobia. Tbrambo (Tbrambo) 18:18, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(response to original post by Tbrambo findable in history) I am damn well concerned that using any words which are considered to be a contentious claim about any living person in a Wikipedia article are subject to WP:BLP as policy. Where you have stated that your primary concern is drawing attention to homophobia from specific living persons, I damn well disagree with that interpretation of the policy stated at WP:BLP. Your edits show yur preternatural position thereon. That you feel the "monetary payments" to "homophobes" must be exposed in some way is further evidence for my post above. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Read WP:BLP, Tbrambo, and then you will see how far out of line your ranting is. Either start editing in line with it, or risk being blocked indefinitely. No article should ever be entirely about someone being homophobic, and if it is, then it could qualify for speedy deletion as an attack page. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• And, considering that this user thinks that a YouTube reference needs to be added to a sentence that already has two references, they also need to read WP:BOMBARD/WP:REFSPAM and WP:RS... Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 18:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The material Collect is referring to is about an extremely large controversy in Ireland that has spilled into street protests, Debates in Parliament as well as the senate and mentions in the European parliament. Collect has been busy deleting all mentions of any protests about the payment, or otherwise blanking entire sections about the very highly covered incident. For example, collect blanked this section: [78] despite it being mostly well sourced and despite at least 200 sources dedicated to the topic here all of which are in depth: [79] and the text being easily sourced multiple times over if desired. IRWolfie- (talk) 20:54, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• What admin action is being requested here? I see a dispute about the content of the articles which has spilled onto BLPN, AN3 and now here. Why not hold an RfC and let the community decide? --John (talk) 22:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I was hoping to get other eyes on this. While acting in a reviewer capacity, I reverted a religious demographics table submitted by editor Corrector11744 here to an article on Moradabad. I rejected the table for being improperly sourced--it uses another Wikipedia article as a reference. I learned that the table had been removed a few minutes earlier by Deor, also for being unsourced. A random IP 103.18.72.81 tried to revert my edit, but I took care of that. Assuming good faith, I looked at the Demographics of India article and couldn't find any mention of Moradabad. I even tried to find the religious distributions at the Census of India, for example here, but I couldn't track down those data. I left a note on the user's page, but then of course the user ignored the notice and added more unsourced religious demographic tables to articles. Again, I couldn't find these regions mentioned in the Demographics article. Deor reverted these tables, and Corector11744 re-reverted without explanation or improvement of sources. My primary purpose for this report is to ask admins to look into this and maybe offer the user some guidance, or if it's clear that the edits are disruptive, that the editor be discouraged from continuing. Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(Responding to a post on my talk page by Cyphoidbomb.) People's adding unsourced information, usually in graphic form, about the religious demographics of Indian towns is a very common occurrence. I usually delete it when I see it, as I've never been able to find such information in authoritative sources (and specifically in Indian census data) and it seems to have the potential for contentiousness. Deor (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've undone a few of these. THe editor was also adding to a number of similar tables added by 101.218.185.95 (talk · contribs) last October. Dougweller (talk) 14:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Mr. @Dougweller:! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I just reverted another such change on Hyderabad. This user changed the religious percentages by exactly 5% (skewing things toward Islam) and then inserted a bar chart with the unsourced numbers. --ElHef (Meep?) 14:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I considered an indef now (I view indefinite blocks as just that, blocks that can be lifted at any time if we are convinced they should be lifted) but gave a final warning instead. Ping me if this continues. Dougweller (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Dougweller: Noting the somewhat WP:DUCKy contributions of this IP user. Thanks, --ElHef (Meep?) 14:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dealt with. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Revdel'd. - The Bushranger One ping only 03:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply] The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A single purpose account posted [this unsourced edit] that I would consider a BLP violation and should probably be hidden. I have reverted the edit. I don't know how to hide an edit and probably don't have the authority to do it anyhow. Trackinfo (talk) 02:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply] I revision deleted it, but in the future, please consider the advice at Wikipedia:Revdel#How_to_request_Revision_Deletion on why it is inadvisable to post such requests on a noticeboard. Monty845 02:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply] The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

As per Callanecc's suggestion I thought of bringing this issue up here. I know it wasn't that long since Katrina started posting and copy-pasting hoax articles of Filipino child actors, but this is eventually becoming a nuisance, given his persistent and relentless efforts at recreating and spawning faked articles. Blake Gripling (talk) 06:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support - Having had to perform unnecessary good-faith research until it occurred to me that this might be a sock jobber, I would support a ban so that future victims could revert all edits instead of having to go through requisite good faith welcomes, and good faith explanations for why you deleted their hoax articles, and good faith warnings, and good faith detailed reportings at AIV or SPI... Because we all spend far more time getting our "this person is an asshole, and here's the proof" case together than the sockpuppet spends committing their nonsense over and over again. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:50, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - Agreed on that, as that would save time with knowing what's going on. Not to mention that since this is a regional, Philippine-centric subject, and relatively few people from outside the country knows the ins and outs when it comes to local showbiz, it would be of significant benefit for other users and admins to be informed about Kat's modus operandi. Blake Gripling (talk) 07:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support ban – Agree with Cyphoidbomb; this editor has wasted far too many others' time. Epicgenius (talk) 02:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Timestamped to prevent archiving. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 02:16, 15 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The subject speaks for itself and I'm sure many admins are already familiar with the Daft saga and its impact on WP:CRIC and the site generally. Two things to be said first: one, if this is not the right forum, please direct me; secondly, I do not intend to keep this account open for long as I prefer the privacy of IP editing but I think an account is needed to fight a troll like Daft effectively.

Okay, see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Richard Daft/Archive for recent activity (cases 1.37 to 1.41 starting 27 Dec 2013). You will note if you care to look through the CDTPP contribs that Daft got away with that account for a long time because he behaved himself (for a while at least) and because some in CRIC decided to forgive him and make him welcome. However, leopards and their spots. In due course we were back to normality and especially so in the case of 86.138.166.244 where these diffs are totally unacceptable and show Daft for what he is: see abuse in this diff and this diff towards User:Nedrutland. Again in this diff and this diff and on User talk:86.138.166.244 where abuse to User:331dot continued.

Having seen those edits and realising that Daft is continuing to flaunt his ban and get away with it, I decided to act myself. I will point out that I have worked on CRIC as IP for a long time and have encountered Daft before so there is history and I am sick of his antics and his inflated view of himself. He makes grandiose claims to be the "most expert cricket writer on the site" and yet his "good edits" can be summarised at best as mere WP:TRIVIA or trite POV. Take this input for example. See how typically incompetent the edit is and then ask yourself if anyone really needs to know that the Earl of Winchilsea was 61 when he played in a minor cricket match in 1814!? As I say, that is Daft's idea of "good editing". Bad enough but what really annoyed me was his habitual condescending abuse towards Nedrutland and 331dot highlighted above. I decided to implement the terms of WP:BMB and remove all of Daft's input, "good" as well as bad, and reawaken the CRIC members to the problem. Users like Nedrutland and 331dot are not members of CRIC (at least, I don't think they are) and they should not be having to clear up a mess that is largely CRIC's doing. Why is it CRIC's doing? Because certain people in CRIC have failed to act against Daft in compliance with site policy and have even offered him sympathy and a safe haven.

While I was removing the Daft inputs, I found this diff and this diff where Daft had done his usual by running from WT:CRIC to user talk pages and, as usual, the person he ran to was User:Johnlp. Now see this diff] whereby Johnlp politely refused to have Daft removed from his talk page. This was, fair enough, before TYPGTTO was blocked by the Daft SPI but the posts are still there and so is this one, unsigned as usual, though Johnlp does expect "peremptory deletion". Checking his talk page, I see that has already happened per this action by User:Black Kite in Dec 2012 (the 2012 Daft posts and Black Kite's erasure of them were all, well, erased at the time). That sets a precedent where Johnlp is concerned.

Without wishing to annoy Johnlp who is a top class editor and a good writer, I believe the admins need to instruct him forcibly if necessary about WP:BAN and WP:BMB. Daft sees him as a sympathiser, with some reason it must be said, and his talk page as a safe haven. Take Johnlp out of the equation and Daft has nowhere to go. If he appears on WT:CRIC, someone will revert sooner or later. If he attacks an article, the chances are that it will be on someone's watchlist. I strongly recommend that the Daft edits now on Johnlp's page are removed and that the page is then protected, regardless of the owner's view on that. His only possible complaint could be that bona fide IPs will be unable to write to him but, his page history shows that he hasn't received any IP posts apart from Daft in the last three years, so protection will not impact him in the slightest while it does keep Daft away.

I would also ask that an admin places a notice on WT:CRIC asking members to be vigilant and to use WP:RBI whenever they spot anything that Daft has done, citing WP:BAN or WP:BMB as their reason for reverting.

Finally, there is one Daft edit I couldn't remove as the page is locked and the owner has gone. Could you please remove that one too to complete the job, especially as it insults two admins User:The Rambling Man (I think) and User: Dweller. Sorry this has been a long post. Thank you very much. HCCC14 (talk) 08:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just wanted to clarify that I know nothing about what HCCC14 describes above other than my brief interaction with the IP address mentioned. As such I am unable to comment on any other aspect of this matter. 331dot (talk) 09:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's fair enough but as I have mentioned you, it was only polite to let you know. Thanks again. HCCC14 (talk) 09:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A notice seems to have been placed on WP:CRIC to watch for this guy, and the latest socks are blocked. Is further action needed here? As an aside, re: "the privacy of IP editing", how exactly is editing in a such a way that allows you to be geolocated more private than editing from a registered account? --Spike Wilbury (talk) 15:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I accept that as far as it goes except that I strongly recommend action on User talk:Johnlp to remove the Daft posts and then protect the page to prevent more being placed there. As I say, this will take away Daft's "safe house" and leave him with nowhere to go. By refusing to remove Daft posts, Johnlp is assisting Daft to evade his ban. I must remind you that User:Black Kite set a precedent here in December 2012 and it must be followed up to keep Daft off that page.

Re your aside, IP addresses can be very quickly changed and I don't care who knows I live in the Midlands. So do several million others. Just checked my current IP and it geolocates to a place that is over two hours drive away in another county! But if you have an account you're stuck with it and no escape from unwanted attention. Pros and cons but I like IP. And so does Mr Wales according to one of his public pronouncements. :-) HCCC14 (talk) 16:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in the throes of moving house and am not around much currently so I haven't been keeping up over the past couple of days. It's likely my internet connection will disappear over the weekend for up to two weeks (as UK broadband connections are slow to arrive, and then slow too when they get inside our houses). So I'll be brief. But I think I ought to respond to something that seems to have got suddenly rather hysterical. My pleasure on WP is to write my own articles and to improve others and you'll see from my edit count that that is what more than three-quarters of my work has been in the past eight-and-a-half years, a lot of it on cricket. I come on here for quiet enjoyment (I'm close to retirement, so work is no longer fun), and because I think WP is essentially a good thing. I don't get involved in fights or politics, and I try to stay polite to all other contributors: and much more important to me than who they are is the quality of the contribution they (and I) make. My over-riding rule around here is WP:AGF and that's stood me in pretty good stead. So if someone makes a remark on my talk page that strikes me as worth responding to, then I'll reply. If some of those people then turn out to be reprobates, or even "new users" with rather uncertain past affiliations and associations, or who ever, then I hope I'll treat them with the same courtesy. On "Banned" users, I presume the process by which they were declared unacceptable should sweep their contributions from all pages, my talk page included: I'm simply not interested enough in this process to spend my limited WP scouring articles to see who's now in the dock or who has already been summarily dispatched. Strangely, in eight-and-a-half years, AGF has worked for me, and I've had almost universal politeness back, even from now "Banned" characters: my talk page may well be one of the blandest in WP. Maybe because I'm not rude to them, and because I try to be careful my articles are at least competent and not careless, I don't attract insults and vandalism much at all.

If I have internet access over the next day or so, I may respond further if there are any points or questions anyone would want to raise with me... but if I don't respond, it'll be because the switch has been thrown on my current system. Sorry if that sounds discourteous, but housemoving is like that. One day you're here, the next you're... Johnlp (talk) 01:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this response indicates you knew full well who TYPGTTO was : Daft. As for WP:AGF, your sarcastic reference to "past affiliations and associations" is anything but AGF. And wrong. Okay, I admit I was a little hasty in removing the TYPGTTO posts from your page TWO HOURS before the SPI was actually completed. I apologise for my haste. Now that both TYPGTTO and 31.50.133.173 have been officially confirmed and blocked as Daft socks, the offending and offensive posts must be removed in compliance with WP:BMB.

You say above that you "come on here for quiet enjoyment" and that WP gives you "pleasure". Fine, but doesn't that also apply to those members of CRIC who have been continually harrassed by Daft for several years? How about giving them a bit of understanding and help so that they too can enjoy "pleasure" and "edit quietly" without being harrassed and libelled and subject to sick taunts every few days? How would you like to routinely receive vile garbage like this? You wouldn't, would you, or else why did you write this and [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cricket&diff=prev&oldid=589622362 this] about someone who finally cracked under extreme provocation and retaliated against Daft? Not that I condone "vile" retaliation, as it must have been to warrant erasure, but it seems to me that double standards are operating here.

All you have to do if Daft posts on your talk page is revert and say "not interested" in the edit summary. If he persists, remove and cite WP:RBI or even WP:BMB. If he still persists, get one of the admins to protect your page. Get that done anyway. You have received no non-Daft IP posts in three years so what have you to lose?

The three posts any decent editor would object to are this one and this one by TYPGTTO (now blocked as Daft sock) and this one by SPI-confirmed Daft IP. All three posts are WP:PA against other CRIC editors who are not presently able to respond. All three posts breach WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL and just about every other policy and guideline on the site which insists on respect towards other editors and all three are a continuation of everything you will find in Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Richard Daft/Archive. You know perfectly well who the author is and you are in direct breach of WP:BMB by effectively sheltering one of the worst trolls operating on the site.

You will have noticed, I hope, that I have not been here as a single-purpose account because I have also taken the time to improve two CRIC stubs. Nothing special. Just a consolidation of information that someone might find useful someday. However, even that little bit of positive effort has contributed kilobytes more to CRIC than Daft has "contributed" in several years. You might like to think about that too when you consider "quality of the contribution".

Finally, I wish you well with your removal. I had a nightmare move from Hampshire to Derbyshire three years ago but it was worth it in the end. It's over to you now. If you do not act or respond by tomorrow night, I will assume you have lost your connection and will remove the Daft posts (and my own!) citing WP:BMB in the case of Daft and WP:AGF in my own case. I shall then complete my retirement. HCCC14 (talk) 11:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Right. As I unexpectedly continue to have internet access, I’ve dealt with the offending the contributions to my talk page as I have no great wish to challenge or get into a debate about the WP:BAN policy as a whole. I am however very uncomfortable with the way you have pursued me in this way, and pretty uncomfortable with the continuing search for manifestations of Richard Daft, which borders on the obsessive.

You say you have not created this HCCC14 persona as a “single issue” account, yet you had done no other editing except on Daft issues before you put up the “retired” notice on your account, though you then returned to open this thread and after that did some other editing. You say you are not a renamed User:AssociateAffiliate and, by AGF, I am bound to accept that; yet let me reassure you that none of the insults that AA has had to endure at the hands of Daft approached the comment that AA himself made which resulted in the admin intervention; you, of course, will not have seen that comment since it was erased. Had the admin not intervened, my view is that AA and WP as a whole could have been looking at a libel case, and perhaps more, with Daft rightly as the plaintiff, which would be an extraordinary position. As I wrote at the time, I saw and deprecate the provocation by Daft, but that doesn’t excuse the response, which went some distance beyond.

You might also consider the interesting case of User:CDTPP, now banned as a Daft sock, but whose talk page indicates welcome and encouragement from User:BlackJack. Jack, if you remember, had four or five years of unpleasant attention from Daft far in excess of the criticisms that AA has endured, with his professional integrity continuously impugned. Yet it seems that they reached a rapprochement and even worked together in some areas.

No one could condone Daft’s outbursts against individual contributors and his sporadic vandalism, and of course they should be removed and reverted wherever they occur. But WP:BAN is patently very easy to circumvent, so, like one of those fairground games where you hit the rat with a mallet, no sooner have you dispatched one Daft manifestation than another one pops up. You can perhaps win individual battles here, but you’re not winning the war. And continuing to wage the war in an episodic way such as this is potentially just as irritating as the occasional Tourette-ish flurry of unpleasantness from Daft.

I think you need to change your strategy. If you concentrate on the disruptive edits rather than the person of the disruptor, then you’ll find that many of us already do that kind of work of reverting and removing anyway, as well as tidying up articles that contain wrong facts, bad links and verbosity... and trying to create some reasonable contributions of our own. Johnlp (talk) 12:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There was no "continuing search" by me. I was reading WT:CRIC one morning and followed the link to the Burley Park article where, lo and behold, was Daft. Couldn't miss him. I scanned the page history and soon came across the typical condescending insults and unnecessary aggression towards NedRutland and the other guy as mentioned above. Seeing that, I decided something must be done, given that so few others are prepared to do anything. I have only "pursued" you because you are not complying with WP:BMB and you are granting Daft a "safe haven" from which to sound off his stupid prejudices and harrass other users. I see the London-based IP below has named three of the main targets of Daft (there are two others he has overlooked) and it goes without saying that those five are all among the top ten contributors to CRIC and all of them have outdone even you in terms of quality and probably quantity of contribution, whereas Daft has contributed NOTHING.

As for the AA comment when he retaliated, I have already acknowledged that it must have been bad or he wouldn't have been blocked and the post wouldn't have been erased. But that is OUT OF SCOPE. This topic is about Daft, not about AA, and the bit about legal is entirely inappropriate here. Daft is subject to community-wide WP:BAN and you as an editor are bound to comply with that and deploy WP:BMB, though acting in accordance with WP:RBI, whenever and wherever you encounter him, even if he is only correcting a typo.

You say "concentrate on the disruptive edits". I have done. I removed a few dozen of them the other day! The point is that you and the other CRIC members have NOT been removing them and you have, until today, stedfastly refused to remove Daft posts which attack other editors from your talk page. This despite the precedent set by User:Black Kite in December 2012 when he was forced to erase posts from your page in what must have been similar circumstances. Given that BK erased those posts, they must have been extremely unpleasant too.

The bottom line here is that you have breached WP:BAN by deliberately refusing to deploy WP:BMB. If I were an admin, I would seriously consider blocking you, especially in the light of the Black Kite precedent. I would certainly issue a stern warning. It is all very well for you to advise me about what I should do, and I will take some of your better points on board, but the ball is deep in your court in terms of your, shall we say, accommodation of one of the worst trolls on the site.

As promised, I intend to effectively terminate this account today. I hope your removal goes smoothly and, finally, I would like to thank you for belatedly removing Daft from your talk page. HCCC14 (talk) 16:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After User:50.121.48.234 was blocked for a period of one day, he has made an offensive edit on his talk page, insulting the administrator who initiated the block. If I am at the wrong page, please direct me. KJ ^{click here} 16:57, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Personally, my approach would be to just revert it and move on. If they continue adding insults, we could revoke talk page access, but that seems a bit premature at this point. Monty₈₄₅ 17:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Mark Arsten: might interest you. m.o.p 17:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, I've revoked talk page access. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I the interests of accuracy, the insult was to the admin (me) who responded to his question; clearly in a way he found unsatisfactory. The block was imposed by another admin is response to this. A short block is reasonable, and I suggest that his activity be watched, ideally by an uninvolved admin.--Anthony Bradbury^"talk" 20:47, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that at least one attack was directed to Mark Arsten: [83] wait, the IP editor is already blocked. Epicgenius (talk) 02:29, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User:Almarro619 ‎has had 4 IPs edit his user page. Assuming good faith that they are public places, why would he not just log in?

Here are my discoveries about these IP addresses:

173.219.38.155 Mixed account with some vandalism and some good edits and edits to User:Almarro619 's page. Probably Their Home IP.

24.121.26.127 User:Almarro619 page updating. I Don't See why he needs this IP...

72.199.184.4 User:Almarro619 ‎page updating. Another One!?

50.38.131.106 Mainly vandalism with two edits to User:Almarro619's page. Assuming Good Faith, probably a library.

Now, Taking this into Account that all of these made changes to his page, Could this be a sock puppet case, or am I going on the wrong trail? Regards, TitusFox 17:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The assumption of good faith should lead you to their talk page, not straight to AN/I. -- John Reaves 22:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Shouldn't this just be ignored? The user only has three edits anyway, the last edit was in 2012, and the user page has not been edited since December 2012. Epicgenius (talk) 02:24, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• That user page was nothing more than a list of ways of getting into touch with the user, who appears to be looking for a job. They have no edits outside that user page. We're not Myspace etc, so I deleted the user page. Drmies (talk) 03:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Special:Contributions/Anji03 is mainly using their account to add IFSC codes in Indian bank articles. I personally feel. the website should not be included. But if we need to revert it might be tedious. Can someone check and revert (if needed) these edits using admin tolls (if any)? Tito☸Dutta 20:24, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Have you explained to the user why adding these links is not a good thing? Have you attempted to engage in a discussion with them? -- John Reaves 22:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm writing about this comment by Wnt on his/her user talk, and particularly the fifth (last) bullet in which he/she, clearly referring to me, suggested to a third editor in a most thinly veiled manner that I have engaged in paid COI editing at Wiki-PR and ALEC. What this has to do with the previous discussion is beyond me, except that in the last few days I've butted heads a bit with Wnt on mass surveillance issues. What I find so outrageous about this conduct is that Wnt is a very experienced editor but apparently hardly even lifted a finger before engaging in such wiki-libel against me. As I explained to him/her, the accusation was not only verifiably false but verifiably the exact opposite of the truth. For example, in December I even brought a WP:COIN report against another contributor to ALEC for paid COI editing.

The full discussion is here. I repeatedly demanded a retraction and an apology, but what I got was a refusal and then a whitewashing.

Unfortunately I don't think this can be written off as a one-time incident. It is part of a larger pattern. Several editors who have been working together on mass surveillance articles have been smearing other editors in similar fashion (examples here, here, here). One editor of this broader group was indeffed for related conduct in November. Advocacy editing is one thing, but repeated punches below the belt are another. I don't believe an indef is appropriate in this case, but a clear message should be sent that the community will not tolerate this sort of behavior. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:29, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Looks to me like you are getting your feathers ruffeled over nothing. Nothing you or Wnt has done (that I can see) has ben egregious, or even bad. CombatWombat42 (talk) 23:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not seeing it either. Can you (DrFleischman) quote what Wnt said that actually bothered you? That diff is pretty long and mostly not about you. If you have a beef that Wikipedia:WikiProject Mass surveillance exists, then that's probably not actionable. (As a sort of disclaimer, I've created articles about such topics myself, but I didn't even know there was a related WikiProject until now. I don't see how that is any worse than, say, WP:WikiProject Socialism.) Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:16, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think from the context, the objection is to the appearance of great writers who make a habit of editing Wiki-PR and American Legislative Exchange Council, people who note on their userpages that their views don't represent those of their employer... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive. That does sound like a rather oblique accusation of COI paid editing, but not at all clearly aimed at anyone in particular, at least not unless you chase down the references. DES ^(talk) 23:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, given this (for more context) this ANI report seems to be some editors not seeing eye to eye on the Snowden etc. stuff fighting some proxy battles on ANI now. Someone not using his real name (talk) 23:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DES is correct, the full offending language is:

“

That said, I don't mean to underestimate the value of your effort; the appearance of great writers who make a habit of editing Wiki-PR and American Legislative Exchange Council, people who note on their userpages that their views don't represent those of their employer... I know nothing about this, but I suspect it all sounds expensive. You can donate money to Wikipedia and have them spend dollar for dollar in combat with these folks, or accomplish the same for free at the cost of nothing but ... frustration. Just because Wikipedia pays nothing doesn't mean it costs nothing for somebody with the opposite agenda and little general public support. There have been idiots who have gone down to protests to smash shop windows who may have inflicted less financial expense, and that at random.

”

Translation: "Keep up the good work; Dr. Fleischman is being bankrolled by unpopular special interests, and righteous volunteers such as you and I can put pressure on their benefactors by forcing them to spend more money on him." I can certainly explain how Wnt was referring to me (something he/she semi-acknowledged in the ensuing discussion) bur not right at the moment, since I have to attend to the little Fleischmans right now. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Wnt is wrong about more than one thing? Or not talking about you? You seem to have done very little editing at Wiki-PR (exactly 3 edits according to [84]). And I don't see where he said you edited pro-ALEC, so I'm not sure how you inferred that. Someone not using his real name (talk) 00:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It would be indeed better if Wnt stopped casting these vague WP:ASPERSIONS, but I doubt any admin is going to take any actions based on what he actually wrote. Someone not using his real name (talk) 00:16, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be a rather bizarrely non-AGF "translation" DP 00:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ok DP, what do you suppose Wnt meant? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:11, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't presume to do such a thing - but I sure wouldn't personalize it :-) DP 10:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

When people are writing about you I have a hunch you'd try to understand what they mean, just as I did. If you think my interpretation was a stretch, please do me the dignity of explaining why. AGF isn't the same as ATDMWTW (Assume They Didn't Mean What They Wrote). --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This seems rather plain to see, but...

Evidence that Wnt was writing about me:

• My user page says: "My contributions to Wikipedia do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of my employer."
• Scroll the bottom of my user talk. Two of the last few threads are about Wiki-PR and ALEC.
• In the Wiki-PR thread I declined to get into a dispute about accusations of paid editing.
• I'm by far the biggest contributor to ALEC (especially in recent months).
• Wnt and I have been skirmishing a bit the last couple of days over at Talk:The Day We Fight Back.
• Wnt's acknowledgment: "You aren't the only person I had in mind when I made that comment, anyway. The way you keep materializing - here in response to a conversation with one other editor, at Restore the Fourth right after I reverted a removal by a different editor, and your persistent removals at The Day We Fight Back do make me suspicious. ... I do expect the pro-surveillance side to take some kind of action at some point ..."

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 01:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what to make of this. To begin with, as you see there, I was trying to talk one editor, then two editors, out of quitting editing Wikipedia. I don't yet know if I have succeeded, or what my odds are now. I only mentioned the possibility of paid resistance because we have all shared the experience of seeing an (overly) enthusiastic discussion of possibilities for blacking out the site or running all articles about surveillance at Jimbo Wales' talk page, only to quite abruptly run into a wall of troubles over running DYKs or even preserving article content. I was trying to reassure Hector that if we were up against hired guns, at least that meant we were costing someone money. I don't think it should be a Wikicrime to say such a thing to another editor as a mere possibility to look out for or consider. I had already given up trying to edit The Day We Fight Back because of DrF's resistance, only to get reverted by him on another page, and then I was being told to avoid speaking, even in the most peripheral terms, about what would happen if someone were being paid. And despite all that, I even indulged him, removing the comment he had complained about right away, basically because it was a careless observation; it was not something I was planning to take to a noticeboard, just a way of saying 'cheer up..." He demanded that I immediately "retract or apologize" - have I not retracted enough something I never even said? Do you think I really owe him an apology?

I should emphasize on the broader issue of advocacy that I have been trying to take a wave of outside enthusiasm and channel it into accepted forms of Wikipedia work that should improve the encyclopedia long term. Moreover, this particular form of "advocacy" is special, first because Wikipedia did participate in the predecessor event spearheaded by the same people against SOPA, and second, because merely editing Wikipedia is a political act in this context. There is another wiki, Project PM, where people tried to do work not that different from that on Wikipedia, though with a less developed set of standards, and in the process of that Barrett Brown was charged with a potential 15 year prison sentence for citing a source. Wikipedia can't really be neutral about something like that. There is a fundamental tension between those who want to make the sum of all human knowledge available to everyone and those who want to make the sum of all human communications available to themselves, while denying you the right to even know they exist (and hitting Barrett Brown with another 20 years or so for trying to look up their home address). So my point all along has been that for this purpose, Wikipedia is by nature an activist organization, just by the routine work of building articles, and so advocacy can be accomplished while acting fully within the rules of Wikipedia. Wnt (talk) 02:19, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I think it's clear from the stuff said above and the talk page conversations linked that ANI can't help with more or less vague mutual assumptions of bad faith from editors who disagree with each other on content issues. This thread is creating more heat than light, and I don't see any administrative action forthcoming, so I propose it be closed by an uninvolved admin. Demanding an WP:APOLOGY while climbing the WP:REICHSTAG seldom accomplishes anything. Someone not using his real name (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on my way out the door, so no details (or apologies) to follow, but I'll just chime in to say Dr. Fleischman has a behavior problem. He does seem to have a hand-full of 'friends' he takes a special interest in, often showing up to arguing with them in conversations not related to him, or making a special point of reverting their content. At first I assumed it was just shared subject matter, but he seems to keep showing up at the right time and place to trigger arguments and edit-wars, adding lots of heat and very little light.
I agree with Someone not using his real name-- close the thread and hope that's the end of it. I just chime in to predict you'll see this individual at ANI again in the future. --HectorMoffet (talk) 03:33, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The editors above appear to be trying to turn this into a broader content and political battle, something it's not. This seems really quite simple to me: Wnt has falsely described me to a third person as a paid editor on the weakest of suspicions. Wnt continues to stand by that description, and despite being proven embarrassingly wrong continues to stand by the assertion with a "nothing to see here, move along." I commend him/her for giving a pep talk to fellow editors, but not for doing so at my expense. We should all be able to have content disputes like the ones described above (really rather minor, I might add) without being subjected to this type of behavior. Perhaps we need Drmies to explain how this is any better than "Update. Im a target of intel boys". In fact it's worse, because Wnt identified the "intel boy." Not express identification, but identification nonetheless. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

DrFleischman once declared his exasperation about another editor's behavior which he described as "Every edit, every source is contested" only to himself engage in very similar behavior "No, we don't have to go with what the news sources think is relevant. We are not a newspaper." on another article, followed by rants on the talk pages of editors who raised an eyebrow [85] followed by ultimatums to another [86]. Wnt casting vague aspersions of COI with which DrFleischman then easily self-identifies for point-scoring purposes is surely not the best way to deal with his behavior, but then WP:BEAR, WP:SPADE, and WP:HYPOCRISY applies too. As another sampling point, DrFleischman immediately chided another editor for expressing his exasperation with him [87] while freely dispensing his own snotty "advice" like "Hurry along, now.","Just please try to keep your punches above the belt" and "stop with the sighs and groans" to those trying to discuss matters with him. If other editors posted a warning to his talk page every time he says something disrespectful toward them, then DrFleischman's talk page would be miles long. But I guess playing the hurt WP:DIVA works well enough around here. Unfortunately, I've seen this tactic successfully used on ANI before. Phrasing the personal attacks in the snotty imperative seems to bypass the civility filter of most admins. DrFleischman's continued insistence on an apology or block of Wnt well after Wnt removed the questionable allusion [88] (this ANI report was filed after DrFleischman declared his impatient dissatisfaction with that solution [89][90]) is just another example of the general WP:BATTLEGROUND attitude exhibited by DrFleischman. Someone not using his real name (talk) 08:31, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I've been quietly watching some of the disputes with DrFleischman, albeit not this one with Wnt. There's a good deal of editors needing to work better together, on both "sides", and I'm skeptical that ANI will be the place to resolve that, but I think that the specific accusation of paid COI editing gets waived around way too much. It's a serious accusation if true, and should be pursued at WP:COIN, but just saying it about someone with whom one disagrees about content or POV ends up being, at best, a cheap shot, and at worst, a personal attack. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, if editors such as Wnt really are concerned about me engaging in paid COI editing then the appropriate place to raise this would be COIN. I would encourage them to lay out all of the evidence and we can have an above-board community discussion about it. What happened here was much more cowardly, IMO. I shouldn't have to police Wikipedia's back channels for smear attacks against me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre, petty hatchet job this. I'm surprised that SNUHRN, an editor I've had hardly any interaction with in the past, would stoop to such a low level. He's apparently gone deep into my edit history to dig up what he perceives as "dirt." Thing is, it's not, and even if it was, it has nothing to do with this discussion thread. I guess SNUHRN has some vague issues with my editing style generally. Well if he does, I welcome him to raise them on my user talk, where perhaps we can discuss them like adults. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:28, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

After trying to update the page for comedian/musician Reggie Watts a bot erases all edits and has his page lacking information for the past 2 years. Please remove the admin in charge of this page! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.27.54.116 (talk) 03:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I see that an editor (who is a person) removed a bunch non-notable supposed "filmography" credits, and thankfully so. I do see that a Bot made a single edit here where name of the show had become really screwed up by someone. There is no "admin in charge of this page" - we have requirements about articles regarding living people and a manual of style that the community enforces. If you're having trouble getting your additions to "stick" then you're 'required to discuss them on the article talkpage to obtain WP:CONSENSUS for them DP 10:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Two editors have asked Sue Rangell to withdraw her AFD nomination here [91] and here [92] per WP:DISCUSSAFD.

Instead of withdrawing the nomination, she has asked to have the article (Global gun cultures) deleted, or merged with another article. Lightbreather (talk) 03:53, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is not an incident requiring admin intervention. There is no requirement that someone withdraw a nomination, particularly not on the deman of an IP thats first edit was 3 days ago. The admin that closes the discussion will make their own determination about the consensus of the discussion, sues comment is irrelevant. Gaijin42 (talk) 04:07, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Gaijin42 and Lightbreather: Deman [sic]? No, I made no demand. I'm not the only IP here. You're an IP too. (Your IP number: http://geoiplookup.wikimedia.org/) Like registered users, unregistered IPs are allowed to "fully participate in deletion discussions, and have been since 2005." No one's comment is irrelevant. ...172.162.77.52 (talk) 05:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• RESPONSE

Great...another complete waste of everyone's time...

I wish I could say it was just me, but Lightbreather has been doing this sort of harrassment to many other editors as well. This is the third time she has pulled me into ANI for something frivolous, and she has crossed swords with other editors as well. For those interested, I will outline the history in the text wall below. If not interested, that's fine, the information above speaks for itself.

COUNTER response I'd first like to say that I find Sue's rhetoric uncivil in its choice of words like: "waste," "harassment," " frivolous," "blows wide open," "huge" reverts, "wiki-saavy," "ballistic," and "bullying." She also misrepresents facts, including:

User:Lightbreather, thanks for the the kind words. But just correcting/ clarifying, even then I did not support getting you banned or blocked. I was leaning on you to dial back on aggressive editing. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 21:40, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, North. Remember: don't shoot the messenger. ;-) Lightbreather (talk) 01:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Even if Sue wanted to withdraw the AfD, she couldn't. The consensus is very clearly in the "delete" ballpark. This ANI thread is petty in the extreme, and that's putting it lightly. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 15:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Propose IBan

These two cannot get along, and have been here against each other multiple times. I propose a mutual WP:IBAN. The caveat to that is that this is probably effectively a topic ban on guns/gun control for one/both of them as the majority of LB's edits are only to gun control topics, and the topic as a whole is full of contentinos discussion/RFCs that would have them !voteing or commenting on the same threads and proposals, which is generally viewed as an iban violation.

• support as nom Gaijin42 (talk) 22:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I think Sue and I would get along fine if she would just quit following me around and "fixing" my edits. I don't have super-powers and I edit in good faith. Other editors are capable of BRDing with me and don't need Sue's help. (I also resent a little having an editor who is currently before ArbCom, and who only a few days ago brought me to ANI hastily, dismissively collapsing everything we wrote.) Lightbreather (talk) 01:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In fact, I just went and read about IBAN, and since editor "X" (Sue) usually replies uncivilly to editor "Y" (me, Lightbreather), and accuses "Y" of things (vandalism, SPA, PUSH, etc) on numerous pages, and generally undoes Y's edits first and in large, single edits that undo others' work - I would support an IBAN of X/her against Y/me. Lightbreather (talk) 01:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I initiated the arbcom, so its not like I was hauled in front of the magistrate. Gaijin42 (talk) 02:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nonetheless, although I respect your right to share your opinion, I'd have preferred the perspective of some other editors and admins first. Lightbreather (talk) 03:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose - Yes, I've just been pulled into ANI because I am of the opinion that the article (Global gun cultures) should be deleted, or merged. I've learned not to be annoyed by these things when it comes to Lightbreather. My complaint is how these things waste so much everybody's valuable time. Our interractions are reasonably civil. We don't use profanity or bait each other or anything like that. Our actions aren't disruptive. We simply disagree. We aren't even on opposite sides of the gun issue. However, I will agree to both of us mutually and voluntarily topic banning ourselves from gun related pages. I am happy to do that. There is plenty of Wikipedia for everyone. An IBAN will not solve the core problem here. Lightbreather will return to ANI again, and again, and again because I am not the only editor she tangles with. I think I've demonstrated that. --Sue Rangell ✍ ✉ 04:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree with some of what you've written, Sue, but rather than get into that, here's a counter proposal. I will voluntarily avoid articles that fall under the WikiProjects you belong to, which appear to be: Computer Security, Sociology, Spam, and Universities, if you will voluntarily avoid articles under WikiProjects that I belong to, which are: Countering Systemic Bias, Firearms, Journalism, Law, and Politics. CSB, Law, and Politics are pretty broad categories, so to be more fair, let's say those articles under CSB, Law, and/or Politics that also overlap with Firearms and/or Journalism. If one of us accidentally edits on another's turf, the other will AGF and give a friendly warning. Lightbreather (talk) 17:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Support For these two opposing an interaction ban, they sure do resent each other quite a bit. I've spoken to both, I think, and I have a feeling this is the only way to stop the disruption. They've both been asked to stop and haven't.--v/r - TP 05:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am concerned that Mark Miller has modified the text of another editor (that would be me) on a Talk page, citing that the previous text violates WP:BLP and saying that "There is actually no proof" to support the previous text. Miller was carefully told that there was proof to support the accusation and that this therefore was not a BLP violation, not only by myself, but also minutes later by another long-time editor, Ken Arromdee. In light of two opposes to his modifying the original text, and no supports other than his own, Mark Miller went ahead and overruled the consensus forming at the page and modified the text anyway. When Mark Miller was warned about this on his Talk page, he deleted the warning rather than discussing it. He also deleted a discussion about whether evidence (or "proof", as he believes is a semantic differentiator) had been provided in the previous text. I believe that Mark Miller should be counseled about modifying other editors' Talk page commentary, that it is both non-customary and impolite. - Checking the checkers (talk) 04:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One SPIsingle purpose account, and one long term editor, do not a consensus make. I do not assert that Mark Miller is correct here; this is an interesting and complex problem. However, there is no consensus as we currently define it that he is wrong. You are welcome to seek a discussion and consensus on Jimbo's talk page or here. For the time being, there is none. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

One "SPI"? There was no sockpuppet investigation involved in the story, George. Does SPI stand for something else that I'm not aware of? Regardless, Mark Miller now says "I won't edit war over any editor that should decide to revert", so I have simply reverted him back to my originally-intended prose. - Checking the checkers (talk) 05:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I Agree with GWH. Jimbo's talk page is one of the most highly watched pages. When you make accusations about Jimbo based on very little but your own opinion, and you attribute them to intentional malevolence, you can expect to draw attention and perhaps have your posts edited. Jimbo is a living person, this is one of the top 10 websites in the world, and you're slandering that person on it. Now, Jimbo's a big boy and I think Mark Miller should've left the comments alone, but you can't seriously expect us to protect you from him when he's completely justified in what he is doing. Sorry, but no. Either toughen up or don't start the drama.--v/r - TP 05:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And GWH meant "SPA".--v/r - TP 05:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I err brain d'oh yes. I did. No sockpuppetry investigation needed, merely observing single purpose of the account. My apologies for the unintended and unwarranted suggestion/implication. I have struck the goof and clarified above. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 05:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, Checking the checkers should voluntarily put it back the way Mark Miller edited it. If policy-based arguments are unconvincing, it should be done out of basic human decency. Stay classy, checker. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:27, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent advice, Guy Macon. I have voluntarily restored Miller's questionable modification, even after he said he would not edit war "any editor" who reverted him. I don't know why (above) I am being called a "single purpose account". My contributions to Wikipedia over the past year have been highly diverse. I would appreciate if that epithet were withdrawn. - Checking the checkers (talk) 05:37, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I concur. Having a strong interest in either Keeping Wikipedia Honest or Throwing Around Wild Accusations (take your pick which way you want to describe it) is not the same as being a SPA. That "stay classy" advice I just gave? It applies to calling someone an SPA too. In the name of common decency we should reserve such labels for clear-cut cases. Georgewilliamherbert should voluntarily retract that statement. --Guy Macon (talk) 06:02, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How much competence can an editor have if they think that it would be worthwhile complaining at ANI about someone reverting parts of their baseless comment that includes "Caught in a lie". Or, is Ctc competent but so engaged in battle that they imagine recruits would be available to right-great-wrongs on Jimbo's talk? Unfortunately the open model of editing means that a lot more nonsense has to be tolerated before action will be taken, but if there is much more unsubstantiated baiting perhaps action will be soon. Johnuniq (talk) 07:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am amused by your "baseless comment" and "unsubstantiated" phrasing. It occurs to me that some people on Wikipedia are incapable of reading diffs and connecting dots, even when they're conveniently numbered "1", "2", "3". I could go over the very clearly-based and substantial evidence that the subject was caught in a lie, but what would be the point? Loyal-to-the-Sole-Founder Wikipedians would just deny the evidence all over again. They show no shortage of their ability to do that. - Checking the checkers (talk) 11:44, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Get a room, you two. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And now, Guy, you need to retract something. Johnuniq's point is valid. "Caught in a lie" is nothing but hot air meant to provoke. It's not an honest question asked by someone interested in the answer. Perhaps we'll find out from Wikipediocrareview who this super checker really is. I respect a bunch of our gadflies, by the way. Drmies (talk) 04:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh—that's exactly what I meant to say. For any onlookers, if you find someone "caught in a lie", the way to handle it is to ask a question. You can always add a suggestion that there seems to be a conflict between the events and what someone said, but saying "I caught you in a lie" will never get a good result unless you are not interested in an explanation and merely want to spread muck to attack the person. I would suggest trying another website for the latter because there are quite a lot of intelligent people here who are not impressed by huffing and puffing. Johnuniq (talk) 10:01, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. I have some ongoing dispute with Yambaram and he keeps issuing personal attacks in his answer, directed at my language skills. It doesn't look like he will stop so that's why I am coming here, so that he can finally adhere to both good standard and our policies like WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA. This is respectless and just leads to a bad atmoshpere. Yesterday, he wrote this totally unnecessary point in his answer: "4- "you doesn't want too se ... I am interesting of knowing" is terribly poor English, please improve your grammar before making other similar confusing entries on this encyclopedia, as this is just one of many examples. Thanks". I said to him what I think about this and hoped he would stop. Unfortunately, he continued today again: "Anyway, you shouldn't be telling editors anything about grammatical edits they make, as your understanding of it appears to be substandard [31] IRISZOOM: "it just that you doesn't want too se what happened to Arabs"". Note that his claim about "grammatical edits" is not true as I specifically talked about keeping a word, not about someones grammatical skills, because I thought this would be better to show the distinction between one country's view and the world's view (which I later explained to him). Also notice the claim that I am "paranoid".

I am not sure if this is personal, because we have had disputes before, such as two months ago when he restored every comment I had deleted in my talk and issued threats about that I can be blocked for that. When I explained to him that this was allowed, instead of apologizing, he said "Well, to be honest I actually didn't know of that, so please do as you wish now. The fact that you choose to consistently delete posts from your talk page instead of archiving them which is Wikipedia policy's "preferred" option means a lot, as there must be a reason behind it. What are you hiding? You have exposed your POV-pushing editing style everywhere, and other editors have told you about it already. Anyway, I can only guess how long this comment will stay before it gets removed too". I took this to here (ANI) and I was advised to ignore him. In his user talk page, he wrote "Please stop making so much unnecessary noise, Wikipedia admins have much more important stuff to go over than your imaginary "intimidation" and "harassment" made by other users". It just seems that if you have a dispute with him, he will use personal attacks as a weapon. Either way, his bad behaviour must stop.

This case could be of intererest. --IRISZOOM (talk) 10:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Right, there's obviously a civility problem there and a failure of good faith. Just taking the first example there about the "you doesn't want too se what happened to Arabs" thing. Yes, it's poor English but it's poor English on a talk page. Yambaram could probably do with calming down on that front. It's important that spelling and grammar is enforced in articles but on talk pages, arguing about each other's spelling and minor layout changes and so on is a complete waste of time and energy. Both of you need to apply the principle of charity and try to deal with the substantive differences rather than just pick holes in minor edits. —Tom Morris (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Response to IRISZOOM, and an official request for action from administrator

I’m not surprised that all editors have chosen to ignore this post. Ironically, as you selectively picked quotes of me from various disputes we’ve had in the past, you proved what I said to be true. You have to understand that there are millions of heated discussion on Wikipedia talk pages, and if every editor were to complaint about any tiny issue as easily as you do, this WP:ANI noticeboard would have thousands of new posts every hour.

So many of the edits IRISZOOM has made do not comply with Wikipedia’s guidelines. Mistake made by her are commonly seen, and I was just able to find a few in a matter of a few minutes. IRISZOOM changed a link from "List of Israeli Arab Christians" to "Arab Muslims”, [113], another mistake is where she wrote “and between and between”[114], or here where she deleted factual content, summarizing the reason with a link to a website that doesn't support the the removal of the content. It's important to note that IRISZOOM did not fix any of these later.

Considering the fact that IRISZOOM is not fighting with everyone as often as she has done with past false accusations that were directed at me, one has to ask himself this why this is happening: Is it a coincidence that I am an Israeli Jew while she's a person who has links to some of the most anti-Israel websites in their user page? IRISZOOM’s twisting name is meant to attract readers to enter her page and click on those anti-Israel links, as evidenced by the thousands of daily minor edits she makes[115] just for the purpose of flooding Wikipedia with her user name for people to click on. She also did that in this very strategic article [116] for example - her edits are anti-Israel, which is sad but is as itself fine, however here comes the serious problem: (taken from IRISZOOM's own user page. she moved it to the bottom recently)

Websites you should visit

• mondoweiss.net - Mondoweiss
• normanfinkelstein.com - Norman Finkelstein
• chomsky.info - Noam Chomsky
• ifamericansknew.org - If Americans Knew

This consists of different violations, including WP:USER#Excessive unrelated content, which prohibits "Advertising or promotion of an individual, business, organization, group, or viewpoint unrelated to Wikipedia (such as commercial sites or referral links), and WP:WWIN#Wikipedia is not a soapbox or means of promotion, which states: "user pages...content hosted in Wikipedia is not for: Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise" - and this is exactly what IRISZOOM is doing by spreading her name and attracting reader to click on here user page so they can see these links. Furthermore, as you can see, she literally asks that viewers visit them ("Websites you should visit"). Admins, IRISZOOM must be asked to peacefully remove these links, and if not, you should remove them yourselves. Thanks you, -Yambaram (talk) 17:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Um, 3 of those terrible sites are written by highly informed American Jews, two with important scholarship to their credit, who happen to disagree with Israel's occupation of another country. They are not 'anti-Israel'. They are again an illegal occupation of foreign territory, which is a respectable position within international law. Though not RS, they are generally highly tuned in to events that are underreported, and therefore assist readers otherwise addicted to mainstream tailored news to see the underside of contemporary issues. Citing them on a user page does not constitute advocacy for what is written there. I don't think anything here is actionable, however, other than that Yambaram should be reminded that disputes should not be personalized. If IRISZOOM feels that these personal attacks are unacceptable, then simply linking all recent examples with diffs, without comment, at the WP:NPA page would be the best way to clarify the issue. Nearly all of the edits I see from IRISZOOM look like close technical corrections on sloppily written pages, while Yamabaram . . .Nishidani (talk) 18:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, regarding that template, this was a result of me changing from "Muslims Arabs" to "Arab Muslims", then I also wanted to change from "Christian Arabs" from "Arab Christians" and I copied "Arab Muslims", then forgot to change the rest too (the last word, "Christians"). I don't see what I would earn on making this on purpose. I've corrected this now. --IRISZOOM (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Lets take a look at his second example. Some of the changes I made:

• Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and 1981 in the Sinai Peninsula
• Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and until 1982 in the Sinai Peninsula
• Jewish communities currently established in the West Bank and in the Golan Heights, between 1967 and 2006 in the Gaza Strip and between 1967 and between 1967 and 1982 in the Sinai Peninsula

One of the changes was that I changed to 1982 because settlements such as Yamit where evacuated then, which I said in the edit summary. The last change was because I wrote that I was "Restoring from when too...". I didn't see "and between 1967" was already there. So you are correct that this is a mistake. I shouldn't added those extra words when there was already those in place. But this doesn't prove something more than I made a mistake. I will correct this now.

Regarding the article about Jordan, I did remove the allegations as they were unfounded, as there is a misunderstanding about Jordan's nationality law. It doesn't "explicitly bars Jews". The law says "(2)Any person who, not being Jewish, possessed Palestinian nationality before 15 May 1948 and was a regular resident in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan between 20 December 1949 and 16 February 1954" under "The following shall be deemed to be Jordanian nationals:". Note that this was not presented as an opinion but as a fact ("Jordan has been accused of practicing apartheid because of the Kingdom's 1954 law prohibiting Jews from living in Jordan") made by a columnist. I was reverted and contrary to your claim, I made other changes. I changed to "allegedly prohibiting Jews from living in Jordan". After that, I inserted what the U.S. State Department says about that.

Regarding my user page. Admins can decide if it's wrong or not. I have directed accusations at you with proof, like yesterday when you made some really troubling POV pushing, where you gave fringe views the same significane as mainstream views. In the end, you realized what you were doing and stopped. And let us don't forget that you direct accusations too, very often in fact.

Yambaram, I really don't know to say to the rest of your text. You called me "paranoid" today. I don't know what that you are writing is then. This is the second time you make allegations of antisemitism. Didn't you learn something from the case you had with Nishidani? I don't care that you are an Israeli Jew, it makes no difference for me what your background have. Three of the websites I link to are written by Jews, maybe the last one too.

The part about my username and my many edits are just... too much. I am sorry but I can't see anyone who agree with this. This is really laughful. Do you think I am spending several hours per day (often more) just to "spread my name and gets the links to anti-Israeli websites"? Most of the time I am spending is just to correct links, formatting etc. I do think my many edits are improvements. But maybe I understand your claim, because you can't find any hate in my edits, or incorrect edits with of course some usual exceptions as shown here because everyone makes mistakes or is wrong sometimes, you now point to the "anti-Israel websites" (which of course is a bad term). This is conspiracy thinking at the best. I took my username, as explained at my user page, from a game engine. I also have one email with that name. Is that also for "spreading my name and getting clicks" etc. or could it be that I just want to have that name because I like it? I am really confused by your remarks.

You know I can bring up your awful edits, like spreading propaganda about Muslims' birth rate in France, you trying to make Palestinians look like interlopers who wasn't ethnic cleansed but, at least many of them, "returned to their home countries". But I won't do it as I don't see the relevance of that. This is about your incivilty, not anything else. --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the many small edits and mistakes: on Wikipedia, editors make mistakes. That's because editors are human beings and humans are fallible. If there's routine incompetence and you try in good faith to alert them to the issues in a civil way and they pay no attention, then we might want to consider a block. I'm not seeing that condition being met yet.

As for the links on the user page: I'd suggest the simple answer to that is for IRISZOOM to remove them. If they are unwilling to, Yambaram—or anyone similarly concerned—has the option to take the user page to Miscellany for Deletion and seek wider consensus on deletion of the page itself. But the idea that there's some grand propaganda war going on here because IRISZOOM has an all-caps username and makes a lot of edits to effectively spam the history page so as to seduce people reading the history page into clicking on their user page so that they can then get pro-Palestinian propaganda in the form of links to four websites... sorry, that's silly.

Beyond telling the both of you to stop bickering and to implore you to try and be civil to one another, I'm not exactly sure what admin action is required here. —Tom Morris (talk) 18:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have explained where my user name comes from but it looks like Yambaram didn't see that. Otherwise he would not have thought I am a woman ("her"), as "Iris" makes it sound (pretty common mistake in my email conversations). So I advice him to read one time more and use common sense before drawing up conspiracy theories.

I have removed that from my user page now. I just want to add that those websites have only been there for a month. I had an empty user page for several years before that. I have done much copyediting for much longer than that. So the silly claim makes even less sense. --IRISZOOM (talk) 19:30, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I Just read all the responses. Nishidani you're intellectual enough to know that these four websites/people aren't just "against illegal occupation of foreign territory" - each one of them represents either strong radical-leftist, anti-Israel, or extreme liberal views. This is unacceptable, just like I would never put a link to this anti-Islam website on my user page and write "Website you should visit", even if I really felt the need to advance a point.

Tom Morris, thanks for your helpful reply and advice. With all due respect, I think that what you called "silly" is actually the truth. You surely agree with me that whatever a Wikipedia user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see. It's understandable, and it's what IRISZOOM did, but in his/her case, it's against Wikipedia's rules. But let's not get into this. Anyway, just before I was going to go to WP:MFD, IRISZOOM wisely removed these websites. A smart move, I guess.

IRISZOOM, as I'm writing this you keep changing the content of your response and it's really confusing and misleading as it is hard to follow. I'll respond briefly. You can't see anyone who agrees with me? You have been reverted dozens of times and other editors told you similar things, so this statement is factually wrong. Also, from 2009 until late-2013 you were barely active and made as little as about 400 edits on English Wikipedia, so saying that your user page was empty for a few years is again a half-truth. Conspiracy theories? Propaganda about Muslims and Palestinians? Unlike you(this is just one example of many), I always cite any sentence I add whenever it could be disputed. And did you just say that I made antisemitic allegations against you?! This is an absolute lie and you should be sanctioned per WP:BOOMERANG. -Yambaram (talk) 20:42, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have already explained the article about the situation in Jordan. The claim was not true and presented as a fact. I was reverted and then I kept it but clarified and added a source about the situation. None of your examples show anything unusual, as others have explained to you here. And please to don't try to misinform readers. You have made many unwarranted changes such as yesterday in the article about Israelis and the fact that you may cite someone, doesn't mean that it's acceptable, like you for example did in some edits about Palestinians.

There will always be disputes about content. But no one has agreed with the silly claim about why I am editing. You write "With all due respect, I think that what you called "silly" is actually the truth. You surely agree with me that whatever a Wikipedia user puts on their user page is what they want visitors to see". You are missing the point. It was not about which pages I had in my user page itself but your claim I wanted to promote it by making many edits. And please read again what I wrote. I said my user page, with a link to it, was empty for several years. Or actually, it said "IRIZOOM". I am not talking about the edits. So your claim about why I am making so many edits makes even more less sense. It's bad that you made this claim from the beginning and it's worse than you keep pushing this idea. You are now trying to leave this by saying "But let's not get into this". No, if you make a serious accusation, and in the very same time as you write this, keeps pushing the same claim about why I am editing, expect me to want you to retract it.

Why do you bring up that you are an Israeli Jew if that's not what you mean? "Considering the fact that IRISZOOM is not fighting with everyone as often as she has done with past false accusations that were directed at me, one has to ask himself this why this is happening: Is it a coincidence that I am an Israeli Jew while she's a person who has links to some of the most anti-Israel websites in their user page?". Why didn't you only write "Israeli"? Not that this would be much better. Don't you see any problem with the claim you are making here? This is a serious accusation by you, don't change it to my being my fault. I see why you are changing it to be about me but lets be honest. You made personal attacks, directed at my language skills, and now it's has gotten worse with the two claims you have made here. You have to understand why I react and not just ignore it or try to make it irrelevant. --IRISZOOM (talk) 21:43, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Again, to imply as Yambaram is insinuating here, 'is it a coincidence that I am an Israel Jew?', i.e. that we have a case of anti-semitism here is worthy of administrative note. Nishidani (talk) 22:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, my edits on Wikipedia are good and productive, and I'm rarely told otherwise. If there are specific edits you think I should correct, tell me so in the proper place, unlike what you did here, and I'll gladly discuss the issue. I said "but let's not get into this" because as a life principle I tend to refrain from saying things that will probably not benefit either side of the argument, but since you׳re continuing your insistence I'll respond in details now.

I wrote that your account was barely active for about four years prior to late-2013 (correction - early 2013 so it's again a half truth to say that your user page was empty for years. You made so few edits every year so this may be why you didn't bother to change your user page space. And no, I'm not "missing the point". The serious issue is the actual websites you promoted on you user page while asking visitors to click on them, and this is what I focused my explanation on as I examined which Wikipedia policies you're violating by having them. The other stuff about your edits was just side notes for whoever it may concern to take into consideration. And no, if you haven't noticed, you have made many more accusations than I have in this entry, and far less relevant and justified ones, indeed.

Nishidani, I'm not going to let you twist my words this time, as you did in "that case" IRISZOOM keeps referring to. Thankfully, as you got more people involved in that discussion by mentioning them, the statements you made about everyone were slowly debunked by those editors. So this is to both of you:

When I asked 'is it because I am an Israeli Jew while IRISZOOM has links to anti-Israel websites?' I was implying that your Wikipedia account/activity is anti-Israel, and so I raised the possibility that I may have been targeted by you because I'm Israeli. I'm surprised it's so hard for you to understand this as it's quite simple. And I asked it, as opposed to accused. I wrote Israeli Jew because (and you know this very well) there are Palestinian Israelis (also known as Arab Israelis), which you IRISZOOM are very supportive of, as your edits indicate. So if I were an Israeli Muslim/Palestinian, my statement just wouldn't make sense as it would contradict the reality, so I clarified it by saying Israeli Jew. And even if I were to say "is it because I'm a Jew?", it still wouldn't be an accusation, which for various reasons you claim it to be. It is a question that I'm entitled to ask just like you can. In case you guys don't know what the word "accusation" really means, it is (according to Google) "a charge or claim that someone has done something illegal or wrong", which is not what I was doing when I asked our of concern why I was being targeted while IRISZOOM has had many disputes with different editors in the past.

You both are just harming you reputation the more and more here, and your false and offensive interpretations must be enforced by administrators. -Yambaram (talk) 15:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

N.B. This was originally posted at WP:AN, but since this is much more of an incident, I've moved it here. Nyttend (talk) 00:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

User Khabboos has continuously and knowingly violated and attempted to violate Wikipedias stance on neutral point of view and rule on editing originally on four pages (Talk:Karachi, Talk:Sindhi people, Jayapala, and Hindu Kush). He has already been warned by other editors that this is not allowed. Even though knowing this he continued to request to have mine and Inayity edits reverted on the Sindhi people page. Following his recent edits on the Hindu Kush (here and here) with his deliberate disruptive editing of a quote in a attempt to push his "agenda" I had personally come to inform him that he is severely risking being banned.

Despite being clearly informed of this, he completely ignored my message and want on his normal ways on the Sindhi people, Jayapala, and Hindu Kush pages. He would again violate NPOV on Hindu Kush, restoring his edit after being told its not allowed and again even after being told by 3 different editors that his edits are not neutral and unsourced. He also claims that the sources provided say "flee" instead of "migrated" but on the contrary both sources say "migrated".

Other disruptive edits include:

Claiming to have "found a good reference" for the Jayapala page even though none of his edits related to the source provided.

Using original research on the Hinduism in Pakistan page (here) which is also not allowed on Wikipedia.

Using original research on the Persecution of Hindus page (here and here). The references used are the same as the ones used on Hinduism in Pakistan.

Adding a reference to the Sindhi page (here) to citation a needed. Though he provided a source it does not mention the numbers given on the article. I have already and several times before have told him to make sure his edits are supported by the source he has given and to make sure the source he gives is relates to the citation needed.

Providing a "dead" "sourced" link to the Hinduism page (here); which called Hinduism "a way of life" which would also conflict with the fourth and fifth word in the first sentence of the first article which are "a religion". AcidSnow (talk) 22:04, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You tried WT:INB, or WP:DRN? Noteswork (talk) 12:59, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Noteswork, please do not give misleading advice on noticeboards - WT:INB is not an appropriate place to raise a contributor's behavioural issues, dispute resolution is only of use where there is an active discussion, and page protection is unlikely to solve a problem spread over multiple articles. I've not looked at the evidence in detail, but from Acidsnow's comments, it appears that admin action may be needed - in which case, this page is exactly the place to raise the issues. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:17, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And BTW, editing your posts long after initial posting [117] is confusing and unhelpful too. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:21, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

While I'm new here, I have been taking advice from friends who are active here. They tell me that I can ask for a senior to tutor me, that I can write anything on the Talk page and it is counted only as a discussion, not an edit. I also asked questions at the Tea House. I was also told that if more than a week has passed after I posted something, I will not be blocked/banned for it. Please tell me how to proceed.—Khabboos (talk) 15:28, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have never heard of this, who said it? I have warned you before that you were risking being banned if you continued, yet you ignored my message and continued. Anyways, even if it was true it does not mean much. As for the talk pages I said "attempted" since you were warned that these break NPOV and were clearly showing "to be advocating your point of view".

*Sigh*, once again you have added original research on the Persecution of Hindus page (here and here). This also has been said by another user too (here and here). Why are you still doing this when me and other editors can see your edits? How many times must you be told to stop before you stop? AcidSnow (talk) 21:36, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some links that may be helpful. This is only for the Hindu Kush portion, which I happened to see at the teahouse (I don't know anything about the rest of the articles). Here is the teahouse thread, WP:Teahouse/Questions#https:.2F.2Fen.wikipedia.org.2Fwiki.2FHindu_Kush. Here is my request for some savvy folks to take a peek, if they could, User_talk:Drmies#Talk:Hindu_Kush. Here is the article-talkpage thread, Talk:Hindu_Kush#Possible_edit_war. Note that dispute over the "literal translation" sentences in mainspace (albeit not between AcidSnow and Khabboos I hope! :-) has been going on since 2005, see Talk:Hindu_Kush#Miscellaneous. Khabboos claims to be getting information straight from the 1957 national geographic article, if I understand the article-talkpage conversation. Hope this helps. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 02:54, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Khabboos, you asked a question at the Teahouse on January 27, but a review of that discussion does not show any such advice. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:39, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have already asked him who said it and to come back to the ANI on his talk page, but he has yet to do so. Hopefully he stops ignoring it so we can end these types of edits. This user appears to have a serious problem with Islam (see his most recent talk page discussion). Not just those but he has also continued to lie about his references then post them all over Hinduism in Pakistan (here and here) and on the Umayyad Caliphate page (here). AcidSnow (talk) 16:52, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I had made some edits to the article Hinduism in Pakistan that can be seen at https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hinduism_in_Pakistan&diff=593445517&oldid=593438770, but User:AcidSnow has formatted it, removing the sentences that say there were forced conversions back in time, that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005 etc (the references say that). Please tell me what to do about it.—Khabboos (talk) 18:56, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Are you just ignoring all of my messages especially the edit summaries and the talk page I have left? None of the sources you provided support your POV. Are you simply Google searching books on the history of Pakistan without even reading them? As for the mob I have said this twice before it was a response to an alleged Quran desecration which you continued to ignore in your edits. It was not out of hate against Hindus but rather and attack out of anger. You have also ignored the questions previously asked you, but raised a question on what to do with my edits that have broken no rules. AcidSnow (talk) 19:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the article on Hinduism in Pakistan, I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', but you removed it, which means you did break the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. In the article on Sindhis, you removed the names of 2 Sindhis, stating that they were not Sindhis, but the surname, Vaswani (see http://www.surfindia.com/matrimonials/sindhi.html and Vaswani, J.P.'s, 'I Am a Sindhi: The Glorious Sindhi Heritage - The Culture & Folklore of Sind. New Delhi, India: Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd. pp. 129–135. 9788120738072.') is a truly Sindhi surname (your edit summary can be seen here), which is again a breaking of the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war.—Khabboos (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Block proposal

I am not sure if I am allowed to do this as I am not an administrator, but this appears to be the only solution to deal/stop with this user. Following his countless POV edits, disruptive edits, use of original research, lies, ignoring messages when told to stop and to rejoin the discussion (see my other comments above) I have request to have this user to be blocked form editing on Wikipedia. AcidSnow (talk) 20:48, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's a strong claim, and needs substantiation; please post specific diffs to show that the user has lied. 88.104.24.150 (talk) 21:33, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

He has and very clear ones would when he said, "I was also told that if more than a week has passed after I posted something, I will not be blocked/banned for it." (he is referring to the Teahouse and I am not the only one that called him out on it). He has also claimed to "have found a good reference". AcidSnow (talk) 21:59, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You said that the user has lied.

Please can you show me where he has lied. Thanks. 88.104.24.150 (talk) 22:12, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For the rule he stated, theres nothing at either Teahouse discussion that says anything like it (see here and here for each one). There's also no other discussion about it in his contribute history (had to make sure so I don't make false accusations). As for the "good reference", none of the edits he made are related to it, so he lied about that too. AcidSnow (talk) 22:41, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

OK, so, you're talking about Khabboos (talk · contribs), right? Got it.

Next, can you show some specific diffs that require admins? Thanks. 88.104.24.150 (talk) 00:33, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I am confused as to what you mean by that and what you are? You know a lot about Wikipedia's policies and have made many edits so far in your first day. They range from articles edits to blocking discussion; these are not normal for a first time editor. Have you been a user before?

Anyways, I have already listed all the things he has done up above. This discussion needs administrator intervention since this user could careless what others say (has been warned countess times). I was also guided here by a helpful user. Another user who has also glanced at this section also see it as such. Since you appear to have missed the issues stated about this user please reread this discussion.

EDIT: It appears that you have been a user here before since you claim to have made "over 100,000 edits". But than again "everybody lies". AcidSnow (talk) 04:18, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

In the article on Hinduism in Pakistan, I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', but you removed it, which means you did break the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. In the article on Sindhis, you removed the names of 2 Sindhis, stating that they were not Sindhis, but the surname, Vaswani (see http://www.surfindia.com/matrimonials/sindhi.html and Vaswani, J.P.'s, 'I Am a Sindhi: The Glorious Sindhi Heritage - The Culture & Folklore of Sind. New Delhi, India: Sterling Publishers Pvt. Ltd. pp. 129–135. 9788120738072.') is a truly Sindhi surname (your edit summary can be seen here), which is again a breaking of the rules, which is the beginning of an edit war. I therefore request the administartor/s to block AcidSnow instead of me.—Khabboos (talk) 13:51, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your going to try to block me for going against your NON NPOV? You do realize since you keep on failing to mention that it was an anger attack not a hate crime that you are once again pushing your POV (which you have been told countless times that it not allowed? This is not breaking a rules if I remove it since it misrepresents the source. Also its not an edit war if you revert it once (once again I have not broken any rule). Dispet knowing this you continue to readded it (here) I removed it because they are not sourced being Sindhi. You know many Turks have the name Yusuf which is an Arab name, but they are not Arab? So the use of the surname does not help.

You also added an unsourced comment to the Babri Mosque (here) about Pakistani Hindus which has nothing to do with the Mosque. This called Original Research, find a source next time (really, I still need to tell you this?). You also added another reference to Temples to the lead that have nothing to do with the mosque once again (here). AcidSnow (talk) 16:22, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Could you also tell us who told you the one week rule? You have already been asked twice, so you might as well as do it now. AcidSnow (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My offline wikipedia friends told me that if an edit goes unchallenged for more than a week and it is backed up by references that say the same thing, it is acceptable.—Khabboos (talk) 16:50, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Name? "unchallenged" and "backed up by references", odd, you did not say these before. Anyways this has nothing to do with the issues you have caused as they were challenged and not backed up. This also has been a continues problem too. AcidSnow (talk) 17:01, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dear admins, In the article on Hinduism in Pakistan, I wrote that a mob ransacked a temple at Nowshera in 2005, with this as a reference - '"Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera". http://www.dawn.com/news/145745/mob-ransacks-temple-in-nowshera. DAWN MEDIA GROUP. June 30, 2005. Retrieved 31 January 2014.', which said the same thing, but AcidSnow is continuously removing it, so please tell me what to do.—Khabboos (talk) 17:07, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Why are constantly saying this? I have given you 3 legitimate reasons why its not needed, yet you keep on asking for Admin assistance? You are wasting time.

AcidSnow Could you explain to me why the sentence "Mob ransacks temple in Nowshera" is not relevant as it appears to be sourced? Thanks Flat Out let's discuss it 00:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are now forumshoping: (request for medition, asking at ANI which you did more than once, making your own section at ANI, asking Smsarmad, and at the teahouse). AcidSnow (talk) 17:49, 2 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your a 100% right Flat Out that it "appears" to be sourced and if that was the only thing the source said or that it was a "hate crime" or anything related to it than it would also be ok to add. However, the article goes on to say they were out to "avenge an alleged desecration of Holy Quran by a man here". As you can see it was done out of anger and nothing to do with persecution. It is also a miss representation of the source as the section it's being used is discussing persecution of Hindus. This is just another one of his attempts to push his POV. Those were the three reasons: nothing to do with persecution, miss representation of the article, and POV pushing. AcidSnow (talk) 01:25, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation, AcidSnow. It's important to remember that not everyone has the benefit of all of the details of the disagreement and that you will need to be specific both here and at arbitration. Best wishes Flat Out let's discuss it 02:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Understood, Flat Out I have edited my response at the Request for mediation.. Could you close it now since it's now pointless to have it open? Also do I continue too wait for assistance? AcidSnow (talk) 03:53, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry I cant close. I will review your additions at Arbitration - Good luck Flat Out let's discuss it 03:56, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you anyways. AcidSnow (talk) 03:59, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I restored this discussion because it is still ongoing. If it was removed due to lack of discussion, it is because Khabboos has staled it even though I have asked him to return to it. This is not about a "dispute", but rather his inappropriate behavior. All Khabboos is trying to do is shift the discussion from his inappropriate behavior to this "dispute" he is "trying" to "resolve". In fact he would rather see me banned. When he responded to me, as you can see here, he has no desire to discuss his continues inappropriate behavior and even denied the discussions existence. AcidSnow (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This is a complaint about User:Yatzhek

The edit conflict that has caused the personal attacks and insults is [118].

I noticed on the article Black people in Nazi Germany a slight error, the mention of ethnic Poles as an inferior race and as "racially non-Aryan" is incorrect and the source given does not mention this. I then removed this and have found myself having to revert this a couple of times now. Before doing this I created a new section on the users talk page which can be found [119] which was my attempt at explaining why I removed the text that the user has kept reverting back into the article along with evidence. The replies are astonishing and are full of personal attacks whilst warning the user about this. I then created the discussion on the actual article itself which can be found [120] and again there is no cooperation with the user but rather insult after insult and personal attacks. One personal attack which really made me angry was "How dare you discredit the Polish suffering during the Shoa by saying that Poles were treated as Aryans? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_victims - Hope you read the whole of my message and educate yourself. Thank you". The user then decided to "contribute" towards a discussion held a little while ago which can be found [121] and this was the final straw, I received this at the end of the rant "You are from England, so you are either anti-Polish racist and hate the fact that Poles suffered racial persecution in their own country, or you are Polish and strongly want to be a full-fledged member of the Stormfront forum. That's all. Thank you." This was the final hurdle and one step too far, the user knows nothing about me (I might even be Polish myself?) it is not the users concern what I am as we are all just editors on Wikipedia and is now also accusing me of being Polish and wanting to be a member of the Stormfront forum.

There is no cooperation with the user despite the many attempts, the user even created a section on my talk page and just copy and pasted the same text of one of the responses on their own talk page. I am not getting anywhere with the user and it is now just becoming too personal for my liking simply because I am refuting and removing the text given that the user wants in the article.

I am not happy with these personal attacks and constant reverting without actually giving an explanation, the history of the reverts can be found [122] and the user clearly is not reading my reasons, such as:

"I've already created a section on your talkpage regarding this, Poles were 'Aryan' not "racially non-Aryan", the source given does not state that and it is irrelevant to the article anyways. Please see your talk page before rv again."

Users reply:

"Undid revision 594494517 by Windows66 (talk) 2 million Poles were victims of Holocaust. They were not only discriminated but killed"

I have warned the user a few times and the user has chosen to ignore me, I want this resolved please as the personal attacks were one step too far. Can you please help?--Windows66 (talk) 15:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And the personal attacks continue...

"Are completely out of your mind? Why are you saying this "Aryan, Aryan, Aryan" thing all the time? This was not the case and you push this topic all the way! I had enough! You deleted the information about ethnic Poles because you dont understand the article Black people in Nazi Germany - ethnic Poles were mention as people who suffered SIMILAR persecutions... or should I say - Blacks suffered similar persecutions to Poles. You are an anti-Polish pseron, hating on this nation, can't stand the fact that Poles were the victims and I think, if you had such power, you would delete all the articles about the Polish suffering and victims of the Would War II. The question is - why? Racism? Antipolonism?"[123]--Windows66 (talk) 16:36, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You hate the Poles. Admit it. Be a man and admit it. Why everything you do on Wikipedia is hunting the articles about Polish suffering during the WWII and deleting the information about them? Why don't you delete Gypsies? Didn't you know that Gypsies were higher on the "racial ladder" than Poles accoring do many Hitler's cooperators? Haven't you heard about 2 million non-Jewish ethnic Poles killed in the German Nazi death camps? You are making a lot of conflict around yourself. Be a human, not an anti-Polish monster. True, Germans considered Poles half-Aryan, but that doesn't change the fact Poles were the second largest victim group of Nazism, right after Jews. you JUST CAN'T DENY IT. don't you dare deny it ! Yatzhek (talk) 16:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It looks that Yatzhek has difficulties understanding some basic policies of Wikipedia (WP:CIVIL). On the other hand, Windows66 himself is doing exactly what Yatzhek is doing: accusations and personal attacks on other contributors[124], [125] edit warring[126],[127] and copying and pasting material from one articles talk page to another,[128], [129] -- Tobby72 (talk) 17:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You are showing yourself to attack me even more through WP:PA right on the page that I have reported you on.

I do not hate Poles. I have nothing to admit. I have not removed any text about Poles (Jewish Poles or ethnic Poles) suffering during WWII by the Nazis. I never deleted the Gypsies because they were persecuted as an "inferior race" according to the Nuremberg Laws, this was not the case with ethnic Poles. Gypsies and their Aryan purity can be seen on the article Porajmos#Aryan_racial_purity, Gypsies were classified as non-Aryan; they were seen as originally Aryan but became too racially mixed and were subject to losing their German citizenship, forbid from having sexual relations and marriages with Aryans, again this was not the case with the Poles. Where did I deny that Poles were not victims of Nazism? Poles were seen as fully-Aryan not just half-Aryan (plenty of evidence for this). You seem incapable of handling the truth and because of this have continued to personally attack, attack and attack me for simply removing un-sourced content. Who spoke about denying anything??? Who spoke about denying crimes against Poles??? NOBODY. What I removed was that ethnic Poles were viewed as an "inferior race", its not true. Second removal they were "racially non-Aryan", again not true.

You claimed on another users talk page (found here) that you struggle with English yet you seem enough to constantly insult me to the level of calling me "racist".

I've tried to co-operate with you, for example after your rant without any sources I asked for you to produce the responses were:

[130] - me asking for evidence.

[131] - your rant.

You won't answer anything I say but then full out call me racist and anti-Polish, then the more severe personal attacks came...--Windows66 (talk) 17:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Tobby72 - The reason it was removed from the Nazism article was already mentioned, the Slavs is already mentioned and Poles are Slavs so there is no need in a separate insertion of the same text when Slavs covers it.

I've not personally attacked anyone, I've not called anyone a racist, a white supremacist, etc etc. I've not personally attacked you I first even said it might be a coincidence, especially now since you're following it up on here.

May I ask why you are even bothering to reply on this when it is really to do with me, Yahzhek and administrators?--Windows66 (talk) 17:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Closely related to this incident: I am calling for someone with historical interest in Nazism to review the onging dispute on the Talk page to this article regarding a serious WP:UNDUE issue.

Windows66 has repeatedly removed referenced information from the Nazism article[132] and used this quotes[133] to support his assertion that "Poles and other non-Germans were not going to be treat like second-class citizens because they were to be equally citizens of the German state just as much as Germans..." seems to me to be historical revisionism of the worst kind (I can quote from it: "... Of course, before Nuremberg, that is still in the war, allied "aces information warfare" periodically recurring thoughts about wanting to "fascists" exterminate millions of people, but then it was just propaganda, often very clumsy. ... By inventing such posts Jewish writer performs a social order, fomenting bestial hatred of everything German, and encouraging physically destroy German women and children. ... the Slavic peoples, and, of course, the Russian people were officially recognized in the Reich racially related, fraternal ethnic groups. What is the meaning to destroy their brethren - here's a simple question that we address Kovalev, Black and other conscious and unconscious falsifiers of history.").

Has Wikipedia been hijacked by anti-semitic revisionist authors like Artur Silgailis and David Irving? Thanks. -- Tobby72 (talk) 08:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It was already mentioned why it was undone and removed, it is already discovered in the paragraph regarding Slavs, Poles are Slavs.--Windows66 (talk) 11:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have left User:Yatzhek a warning for accusing Windows66 of Holocaust denial. Regardless of the content dispute, his comment above clearly aggravates the situation. Shii (tock) 16:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps someone is teaching a class and got a bunch of students to sign up in last few days; or maybe someone has a bunch of socks? Anyway, these guys are editing a lot of the same articles the last few days, and making a lot to clean up after:

• JaunJimenez (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• DaveeBlahBlah (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• BatManFascination (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 808caTFish (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• SuleeeOuh (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• GoWP (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Among the articles edited by at least a couple of them in the last week are Ocean, Salinity, JFET, MOSFET, Transistor, Diode, Zener diode, Microphone, Transformer.

Is there any good way to bulk notify them or help them be less of a problem in their contributions? Dicklyon (talk) 01:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• "Bulk"? Not that I know of. Try individually, or try to figure out who the teacher might be (you can ask them). Drmies (talk) 04:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edits [134][135][136] by User:DaveeBlahBlah include copyvio from the same sources that Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Jwratner1 was fond of plagiarizing. The areas of electronic components and ocean/salinity that are the focus of this pool of editors are also the area of that sock-drawer. DMacks (talk) 05:30, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Edit [137] by User:JaunJimenez is copyvio (can't remember if it's a source the SPI used). DMacks (talk) 05:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• At Did You Know nominations, users are extended the courtesy of having nominations 'held' until a specific date, Although consensus may or may not emerge for them to actually be scheduled on that date, we preserve the possibility. We are currently respecting the holds on items for Valentines Day, "The Investiture of new cardinals appointed by Pope Francis" (Feb 22), the 2014 Football League Cup Final (March 2), and Internatioanl Women's Day (March 8)

• Gobonobo nominated Oleg Syromolotov with a requested hold date of Feb 11. Admin Resolute approved it and moved it into the holding area for that date.
• Orlady is attempting to run this item immediately, ahead of schedule, ignoring the hold request over the objections of others, despite knowing this is a controversial move.
• To the best I can tell, no attempt was even made notify Gobonobo and alert him to the fact that his hold request was going to be ignored, out of process and contrary to status quo expectations.

I do not feel this is appropriate, and think it shows a distinct lack of respect for Gobonobo. I would request Orlady unschedule the item and respect the validly-stated hold request from Gobonobo Too late now, it's on main. The past is the past, but I would request Orlady clarify that in future they will not, as a rule, run held material ahead of schedule, as was done here.--HectorMoffet (talk) 04:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

My perspective is that Hector Moffet's actions at WP:DYK have been disruptive. With less than an hour to go before the next scheduled update to the main page, I checked the status of the queue and found that there were no admin-approved updates. Furthermore, the next two unapproved prep areas in line were each short by one hook (but did not display an empty slot) because Hector Moffet had removed hooks that he apparently feels that he WP:OWNs, without also removing the code that creates records and "credits" for hooks that have appeared at DYK, and without editing the nomination templates for "his" hooks to record the fact that he had removed them from the prep area. Both of these hooks had been promoted to the prep areas by another DYK volunteer who had been aware of Hector's request to reserve them for a certain date and had decided to run them on 9 February instead. Given the time-urgent situation, I restored the removed hooks and approved both hook sets for the main-page queue.

Note that DYK does not routinely run hooks on dates requested by the article creator or nominator, although some items are scheduled for "special occasions" when volunteers are convinced that this is justified. There has been plenty of discussion of this situation with Hector Moffet in recent days (including User talk:Jimbo Wales#Orlady's Prejudgment of consensus and scheduling against procedure and User talk:Orlady#Sorry for the intensity, but...). I've lost patience with him and his apparent view that the importance of his political agenda justifies over-riding the standard protocols and disrupting the processes of the Wikipedia community. --Orlady (talk) 05:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ad hominem to HectorMoffet, who after years of hard gnome work suddenly became a drama queen completely unprovoked.
But what's being missed is that I'm not Gobonobo-- he did nothing wrong to earn your disrespect. He asked for his content to be held, an admin approved for it to be held, and you flat out ran it without a word to either of them. --HectorMoffet (talk) 06:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"He asked for his content to be held, an admin approved for it to be held", and nobody is required to say a word to either of them before running the hook, as any hold is nothing more than a courtesy. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 06:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Bushranger explains the situation well. Also, please note that it was User:Ohconfucius (not me) who moved those hooks to the prep areas. On the Oleg Syromolotov hook, that user's edit summary states "no consensus on Surveillance awareness day, going with olympics; need non American hook." That summary reflects the reality that DYK volunteers post a new set of 7 hooks every 8 hours, and we endeavor to maintain topical balance in each set. It takes the cooperation of a number of volunteers to keep DYK running. How many more hours of volunteer time do you intend to divert from the process of keeping the DYK feature running in order to argue that a couple of individual hooks are uniquely entitled to special treatment? --Orlady (talk) 06:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Oh poo! These folk who will go out of their way to get their desired date of insertion or top slot are getting annoying. Hector is clearly engaged in advocacy, quite against consensus. He objected before, got in a huff, puts a semi-retired tag on his user page and now creates a ruckus because he wants his own way again. NO. He needs to learn the best way is amicable cooperation, not strong-arm tactics. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 07:12, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

---

Okay, let's move beyond Feb 11 and Gobonobo, that's in the past. Let's just look at going forward and focus on preventing this same problematic behavior from recurring in the future.
I see that Theparties has DYK content approved and being held for the "Investiture of new cardinals appointed by Pope Francis" on Feb 22. Now can we agree that that it's inappropriate of you to run Theparties's nomination for Feb 22 on Feb 19???
And if, for some reason, you DO need to run an admin-approved nomination ahead of its hold date, you need to, at minimum, try to contact Theparties to let them know there's a change of plan.
If you were only rude to me and gobonobo, we can drop it. If it's your standard operating procedure, it's a problem. --HectorMoffet (talk) 07:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"no attempt was even made notify Gobonobo"..."without a word to either of them"..."rude to me and gobonobo"...HectorMoffet, I'm not seeing where you notified Orlady of this discussion (which she evidently found on her own). A tad bit hypocritical, no? 173.209.204.206 (talk) 08:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, hypocrisy would be if I didn't try to / want to notify Orlday. In fact, Orlady was the very first commenter, probably alerted via the "Your Notify" gadget, and posted a responding within minutes, as I was still polishing my statement. But you make a good point-- if I had let a discussion go on without notifying Orlady, that would be bad. --HectorMoffet (talk) 08:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Template:Editnotices/Page/Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page." Orlady replied 35 minutes after you started the discussion. 173.209.204.207 (talk) 09:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The recurrence of problematic behavior can only happen if there was problematic behavior to recur - and there was no "problematic behavior" here. As for the other stuff you mention, if a DYK queue on February 19th is short and the only way to fill it is to grab a hook being held for February 22nd, then that hook being held for February 22nd is going to run on February 19th, full stop. Holds are a courtesy, and there is no obligation either to hold, maintain a hold, or notify that a hold has been 'run early'. Being "Admin-approved" means nothing at DYK; you don't even need to be autoconfirmed to approve a hook or to move it to a hold area. It requires the use of exactly zero tools to do, and thus whether or not the editor who did it wields a mop is wholly irrelevant. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 08:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

you say "Holds are a courtesy"-- what I want to know is, are we going to be extending that courtesy to Theparties on Feb 22, or should TheParties brace themselves for the same discourtesy Gobonobo experienced. This should be a simple answer: no, as a rule, we won't run held material ahead of schedule. --HectorMoffet (talk) 08:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Please stop lawyering, accusing others of wrongdoing and changing the subject away from your own disruptive actions. If you hadn't tried to be so pushy, you might have been pleasantly surprised on 11 feb. Instead, you are getting people's backs up. DYK already has to run by quite a few rules and constraints, and it's often difficult to make up sets accordingly. And I don't see the need for a HectorMoffet Appeasement Policy, thank you very much. Now will you kindly drop that bone of yours?. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 09:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The weirdest part is that Orlady is the user who proposed that February 11 be treated as a "special occasion" at DYK. This failed to generate consensus, so she scheduled Hector's hook normally. When he inquired about this, she politely explained that the idea was rejected, informed him that it was past her bedtime, and advised him to raise the matter at WT:DYK if he still felt that a change was needed. Instead, Hector removed the DYK item from the set, moved the article back to the draft namespace and inserted a bogus tag "to keep [it] off mainpage for a few days". He also reported Orlady on Jimbo's talk page (and didn't bother to notify her of that either), claiming that she's part of a clique attempting to undermine consensus. Keep in mind that Orlady proposed the very idea that Hector believes was unfairly cast aside. —David Levy 10:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Really not about me. What courtesies are going to be extended to future DYK newbies? As a general rule, is it okay to cannabilize 'Feb 22 HOLDS on Feb 19? --HectorMoffet (talk) 10:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please see WP:HEAR. —David Levy 10:42, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this is, actually, about you; you can't decide "this AN/I isn't about me". At AN/I, all participants in a discussion are under the microscope - continued "this isn't about me" only puts you under more scrutiny. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• My above question stands. I'm okay with ME being disrespected-- At least some of my proposal ideas were genuinely controversial. But I have a duty to ensure that I'm the last DYK newbie to be bitten in this way.
  Again, I note that TheParties has DYK content on hold for Feb 22. Is it appropriate for us to run that content on Feb 19 or not??? --HectorMoffet (talk) 09:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• The problematic behaviour was all your own to begin with, so you have no right to talk about the respect that you feel you are owed. If you go to Le Gavroche in a ripped Tee, shorts and rubber thongs, you'd expect to be told off. OVER AND OUT. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 10:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
• Homophobic hate-speech not withstanding, I note that TheParties has DYK content on hold for Feb 22. Is it appropriate for us to run that content on Feb 19 or not??? All nominations deserve equal respect, TheParties is just one example. The harder it is to for people to admit all nominations are 'equal under the law', the more concerned I get . --HectorMoffet (talk) 10:44, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• "Homophobic hate speech"? Really? (For the record, the "thongs" referred to you may know as "flip-flops".) While Ohconfucious may possibly have been less blunt, there's nothing "homophobic" about what he said; further personal attacks like that may well result in this AN/I report turning into a WP:BOOMERANG. As for your continued refusal to listen to what everyone here is telling you, please drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass, it's not going to get any deader just because you keep asking the same question over and over because we're not telling you what you apparently want to hear. There was no biting, there was no "misconduct", there is nothing else to see or do here other than continue to dig your hole deeper. Unlike what some would like to believe, we really don't like blocking or banning people, so it'd be appreciated if you'd let the words to the wise be sufficent. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 10:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Is this really what I wake up to? "Potentially holding a DYK to a date" is a nicety, not a requirement - period. Nobody on Wikipedia gets to have things scheduled based on their time. If we have zero DYK's one day, the project will move a couple into the queue. These aren't promises, they're "we'll promise to try, but cannot guarantee". Seriously, calling this "disrespect" is disrespectful to the project en masse DP 10:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hey, all you insiders that haven't been bitten to pieces may not understand.
Most of us are of the understanding that a hold is held. If that's not the way you want to run things, rewrite the headers to make it crystal clear that nominations are just polite suggestions' requesting special permission from the owners, which the owners may ignore as they please.
My experiences with DYK was very negative because I assumed that my holds would be held.
Now, even if you agree I'm an ahole, let's still learn from my negative experience and make it crystal clear to future users that "holds" aren't held, they're just a "mother may I" plea for special favors from insider-owners, not actual holds like the literal interpretation would suggest. This will decrease future friction.--HectorMoffet (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than look at this from the other side and see that "promised dates" are contrary to the community's concept at large, you wanted to get the last word in and a few zingers too? Nice. Reallllly nice DP 11:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• @HectorMoffet:You have to understand that rescheduling of Syromolotov is not about you. There was no biting. You are wrong to barge in like a bull into the proverbial china shop and expected everyone and everything move out of your way. There is no obligation to hold for a certain date. The regulars do their best to ensure that consensual holding dates are accommodated, but let me just reiterate that 11 February is not such a consensual date.

  BTW, I thought carefully about using the word "thong" that I deliberately prefixed it with the adjective "rubber". Maybe that isn't enough these days of political correctness. ;-) -- Ohc ^¡digame! 11:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

There are no "insider owners". - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 11:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I know that, and you know that-- but I know a few users who don't know this --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Can someone just close this before things go too far?. This isn't the place to change the rules for DYK - that would be Wikipedia talk:Did you know.Nigel Ish (talk) 11:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Closure is rarely helpful-- I'm asking legitimate questions and I'm not demanding any specific action against anyone in particular. Ignoring a question doesn't make it go away. --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

---

There's no shortage of ad hominem, but let's refocus:
The question I'm seeking to have answered is: Who decides if it's okay to run Theparties's Feb 22 holds ahead of schedule? Who is on the list to unilaterally make that decision? Is that one name? is that a few names? Or can that change only be made by community consensus?
When I was a newbie, I genuinely couldn't figure out the answer. I still don't know the answer. You need to make this clear, not just wing it. --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Let me make this clear: that question is not the remit of this board; period. DP 11:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• You forget that this is a wiki. The answer to your question will probably be the same as "who will create "2020 FA Cup Final"? – It will be whoever gets around to it. -- Ohc ^¡digame! 11:38, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Good answer, OC. I hope your answer is correct-- that no users claim any special ownership of DYK. Sadly, my recent experiences have led me to lose some of my naive optimism. Let us both hope your vision is the accurate one. --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reviewing some sample of the vast bureaucracy of pages that make up DYK -- it appears that not only are there rules, but there more rules -- but none of the rules that I found directly address Hector's concern. Since it appears the requested date section is only a couple months old, I assume the rules (I don't know whether they are rule rules, or supplementary rules) are stilling evolving. So I suggest the Hector post a polite inquiry on WT:DYK asking what the current practice is, and perhaps requesting an appropriate note be placed in one of the rules pages setting the appropriate expectations for the management of date requests are unable to be fulfilled. NE Ent 16:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that Hector has been poorly treated. He spent the time, wrote up the articles, and expected them to run on a day they were scheduled for, only to be told by some other editors that his event is something not worth commemorating, while others' events are. Some have justified this by saying the issue was closed when a different proposal, one to run years-old hooks on a Special Day, was rejected, but that's just wrong. Regarding advocacy: Wikipedia's policy on advocacy makes no distinction between sport, religion, and politics - if any one of the three deserves to be held for a certain day, so do the others. I raised the example of the elevation of the Cardinals because we have to decide what happens if someone wants to hold articles about a less popular religious group (such as the Universal Catholic Church). If we have centralized authority claiming the right to decide whose hooks have the right to be scheduled, we may end up with a list of official Wikipedia religions that can claim scheduling rights, whereas others are unapproved. Since that is an unacceptable outcome, this is an unacceptable policy.

Now it may be that allowing anyone to schedule hooks for a certain day in the near future is more work, but it's fair, and the work could be automated. The elaborate system of DYK holding areas dates back to pre-Scribunto times - it is possible for me and others to write scripts that could implement some other procedure. I don't really know that much about DYK, but this shouldn't be rocket science.

In the meanwhile, I think it's important for Hector to be careful about doing ad hoc edits/moves to fix the situation if they could have unintended consequences. I don't want the whole DYK mechanism broken over a day or two difference in when a hook runs; I want the problems fixed. The NSA is not closing up shop on February 12, nor the agencies with which they share surveillance data, and it is all too likely that Wikipedia will be facing existential threats from imminent legislation sometime in the next year or two. There will be all too many opportunities for the site, by necessity, to get involved in activism to save itself. Wnt (talk) 17:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, I honestly don't know what's going on but I'm fine with as long as what I nominated appears.--Theparties (talk) 17:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Just to note, we seem to be in a bit of a reviewer slump at Featured pictures just now - a lot of things are closing with just under the minimum number of supports, and no opposes. So if anyone would like to review, please do! Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 08:41, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The sudden appearance of numerous keeps by new or one-purpose accounts is suspicious. Can some admin please check. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]