Germany–Israel relations (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been repeatedly edited by User:91.60.163.227 (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) to introduce controversial and unsourced information. (See diffs [1], [2],[3])

The user repeatedly introduces information without citations and gets upset on the article talk page (see here and here) when it is removed because of WP:RS, WP:V, etc.

User:Josh3580 and I (User:Mononomic) have been reverting some of the damage and are trying to explain it to the IP via the article talk page. We are walking the narrow line of WP:3RR and would like some feedback or action about this. —Mono·nomic 18:51, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• What Mono·nomic said. On the first diff that was listed, the user added the {{cn}} template to facts which were clearly covered by the cited source. The user stated that the cited article was biased, and therefore not valid. He is not receptive at all to discussion, nor referral to policies. —Josh3580_talk/hist 18:56, 22 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Just an upate... 3 days after the incident was reported to WP:AN/I, and with no further edits or participation in discussion seen from 91.60.163.227, I have reverted the article to its previous, properly sourced version. —Josh3580_talk/hist 18:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support topic ban and further investigation. I suspect that the editors 91.60.163.227 and 91.60.169.118 (who has been editing the Talk page of the article in question) to be socks of a previously disciplined editor, as both new accounts immediately began submitting edits with formatted references (something no truly new editor would have experience with). Given the obsession of both IPs with purported "jewish crimes" and Israel-bashing, I rather doubt any rational discussion will be forthcoming. (IP traces source Oyten and Delmenhorst, two suburbs of Bremen metro area in Germany. Home & work computers?)

Side-note: someone should take a look at Wiedergutmachung, which the 91.60.163.227 IP has been active in, as I would guess revisionist propaganda in being worked in. --Froglich (talk) 10:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A bot archived the following, so in case it was done by mistake, I'm reposting this. Please let me know if I've done anything inappropriately.

For most of this month, User:Dcelano has been violating policy at The Wiggles and its associated pages, despite numerous warnings and requests to stop from myself and from User:AngusWOOF. Here are some diffs: Removal of content without explanation or discussion [4]; addition of unsourced edits [5] [6] [7]. On Talk:The Wiggles, he's used it as a WP:FORUM, despite repeated requests to stop; see everything after December 3, from the section "Anthony's Shirts" onward. [8]. Most egregiously, Dcelano deleted part of the talk page when I warned him that if he continued, I'd see about getting him blocked. [9]. He has also engaged in the same sort of behavior on my talk page [10] and on AngusWOOF's [11] [12] [13]. There are other examples on other Wiggles pages as well. I think that a block is in order, since that seems to be the only thing that will stop him. Thanks for your consideration. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 05:02, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) - FYI: Threads are moved to the archives after 36 hours of inactivity. With the report you've presented, I'm kinda' surprised (and kinda' not) that an admin has not responded to this yet. I'll post-date my comment to prevent archiving for you. - ^theWOLFchild 05:21, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Threads are indeed archived when there's no actions required, often because other venues have not be tried yet. As is the case here. Odd that the OP would jump to the "blocks are the only thing to stop him" when we have some very minor "offenses" (ie, we don't block for using an article talkpage as a forum). We do however, have WP:DR ES&L 11:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The "Removal of content without explanation or discussion" link doesn't seem to show what you intended to show. Do you have a correct link? – Quadell ^(talk) 13:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please take a look at all of User:Dcelano contribuations [14] and on User:Figureskatingfan and User:AngusWOOF Talk Page I Beleave that Dcelano has Ben Anoying Them for a long time and They have had Enough Jena (talk) 15:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not going to read all of Dcelano's contributions. I have read the other diffs provided, but the claim "Removal of content without explanation or discussion" is an important one, and I think the diff provided has a typo in it. I'm just trying to see if anyone can show that particular behavior in a working diff. – Quadell ^(talk) 15:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• deleted comment and warning on talk:the wiggles page [15]
• deleting off my page [16]
• deleted link on article [17]

-AngusWOOF (talk) 16:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As an outside admin, when I look over the diffs and user contributions, a few things are apparent to me.

1. Dcelano is really into the Wiggles, and he seems to honestly want to contribute to Wiggles-related articles. However he does not cite his sources (nor does he use edit summaries effectively), and he doesn't seem to be able to distinguish reliable information from unreliable information. His edits are usually reverted.
2. He seems to use talkpages as if they were a fansite message board. His comments are not abusive or disruptive, but they are rarely useful or welcome.
3. In the view of the most prolific content contributors to these generally high-quality articles, Dcelano does not improve the articles or contribute meaningfully on talk pages, but simply creates more work for other editors who have to undo his changes. (Please correct me if I'm wrong in this summary of your views, AngusWOOF and Christine.)
4. Since The Wiggles is a Featured article, this problem is most pronounced there. Several editors work hard to maintain the quality of that article (along with related articles), and they resent having to revert one user's changes over and over again.
5. Over the last month he's made about 5 edits a day, which is hardly overwhelming, but it is a consistent issue. The same sort of behavior has been ongoing for at least a year, and he doesn't seemed to have improved the quality of his contributions in that time. It is very unlikely he will become a valued contributor to Wiggles-related articles in the future.

Since he hasn't figured out how to effectively improve these articles over the last year, and since we run the risk of driving away the sort of editors who do meaningfully improve these articles, I'd be inclined to support a topic ban. What do others think? – Quadell ^(talk) 18:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's a pretty good assessment from what I can see, Quadell. What I'm seeing is a lot of time-sink for the involved editors; they constantly need to check his every edit and very little of it stays within the articles/talk pages. I think a topic ban of some kind or some other restriction is not a bad idea. only (talk) 18:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support topic ban (and possible block - this user should commit to contributing meaningfully, and using talk pages, edit summaries and sources properly. We have a regular contributor here, let's see if we can turn him into an effective one) - ^theWOLFchild 21:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, everyone. I agree that a topic ban would be the best option, for the reasons Quadell states above. It's true that Dcelano's behavior isn't overwhelming, but it is, as Q says, long-standing and annoying. The Wiggles can be heavily vandalized, so it's just one more thing to have to deal with to ensure its continuing quality. I don't have much faith that his behavior will change, though, since he has been known to do the same kinds of things on other Wiggles sites, even with bans and repeated requests to change. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 01:11, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

yes a Topic Ban and Maby a Block Jena (talk) 01:40, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, it seems like everyone finds this solution appropriate. How do we implement a topic ban? – Quadell ^(talk) 12:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Aren't Topic Bans normally handled by someone giving him/her a formal notification of the matter and someone watches his/her edits? MM (Report findings) ^{(Past espionage)} 23:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know. I've never initiated or enforced one before. – Quadell ^(talk) 13:38, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

ummm I thought an Admin would know what they are doing? Maby we should just ask somoneelse to block him? Jena (talk) 03:27, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm just interpreting the evidence and gathering consensus. Like I said, I haven't been involved in a topic ban before, and I'm not willing to use my admin tools unless I can be reasonably sure I'm doing so according to policy. Getting other admins involved is a great idea, which is why we're here. – Quadell ^(talk) 14:46, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Then can an admin act on this, please? This has drug out for a long time, and Dcelano continues his inappropriate editing. For example, his latest, just this morning (unsourced addition): [18] I could cite other recent instances of his continuing behavior, but I think I've made my point. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:47, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Kafkasmurat (talk · contribs) has been leaving ridiculous and offensive comments on talk pages on Armenia-related articles, namely

• Armenian Highlands - "Armenians stop manipluating Wikipedia"
• Armenian Genocide - "Just because of politics and capitalist opressers, people are now divided. There is no differences between Turks or Armenians." "The killings are real but not 1.5 million." " are you accusing us about it. There were no Turkey or Turks.", etc. - I removed it per WP:NOTFORUM
• Soghomon Tehlirian (an Armenian who killed Talaat Pasha, one of the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide and was found not guilty by the German court) - "When did terrorists become assasins? This man killed people on street. At daylight and never felt guilty. How can you make a hero from a psychopath ? There aren't any mentions of this"

Interestingly enough, this user hasn't been editing since 2008 and made a sudden comeback this January. [19]

His edits back in 2007 include blanking of Armenian Genocide three times [20][21][22] and replacing it with

--Երևանցի ^talk 22:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Calm down, talking shouldn't disturb you. I am a historian i read these articles and blanking was a mistake. Also, what is your purpose? You just can't stand freedom of expression?--Kafkasmurat (talk) 01:28, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Kafkasmurat, your feelings of brotherhood are greatly appreciated. However, Wikipedia is not the best place to express those. Also, this is not the place for comments such as "Armenians stop manipluating Wikipedia". Seriously, that kind of commentary is blockable, and I say this as a total non-Armenian. As far as I know, of course. Drmies (talk) 01:45, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just a reminder to all admins reading this that editing in the Armenia/Azerbaijan conflict topic area is subject to discretionary sanctions described at WP:ARBAA and WP:ARBAA2. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:43, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Thanks BMK. More paperwork. Kafka has been warned and logged. Drmies (talk) 01:51, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) The arbitration committee clearly stated "Wikipedia is a reference work. Use of the site for political struggle accompanied by harassment of opponents is extremely disruptive and absolutely unacceptable.". This is in addition to the notices on those articles advising that the talkpages are "not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject." I can't see that there is any justification for this edit, for instance. "Freedom of expression" does not necessarily exist on Wikipedia (see Wikipedia:NOTFREESPEECH). ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 01:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

His comments are pretty self-explanatory. He just opened a section on me claiming "Any matter offenses to Turks ( even terrorism) gets support by the user" simply because I've edited Kurdish–Turkish conflict article. I suggest admins take some actions. Users like him are not here to build an encyclopedia. --Երևանցի ^talk 01:52, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• User is now warned. I don't see a reason to pile it on right now; future disruption can be dealt with by blocking, for instance. Drmies (talk) 03:06, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I see. Thank you for issuing a warning. --Երևանցի ^talk 03:10, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand why you working so hard on it. I only wrote something at talk pages. If i'm wrong, you should tell it to me. Why is this rivalry? Nobody told me anything about my ideas. You just reverted the talking. I'm not your enemy. I'm against all blockades. You block someone and he'll come with another name. Instead of blocking, you can be advisory.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 20:48, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Kafkasmurat: And I don't understand why you are editing English Wikipedia articles when your command of the language doesn't seem quite up to it. I'd suggest you'd be more helpful editing the Wikipedia of your native language. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's just talking. I don't talk on articles. You're so intolerant and i'm not sure this is a voluntary encyclopedia. Since you're excluding the newcomers.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 10:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's not "just talking": more than half of your edits (46/82) are to articles. Besides, you're no "newcomer", you've been editing here since 2007.

And, yes, I am quite intolerant of people who edit English Wikipedia who do not have sufficient command of the language to do so. I would never think of doing an edit on another language's Wikipedia which involved the expression of ideas when I couldn't properly convey because of my own deficiency in that language. That would be a disservice to their efforts to build a quality encyclopedia. It so happens that English Wikipedia, because of its dominance and the world-wide influence of the language, is a magnet for people to come here and fight their ethnic and nationalistic quarrels. It's a total pain in the patoot and causes no end of troubles, clogging up our noticeboards and taking up the time of our Arbitration Committee. That's bad enough, but when a significant portion of those POV warriors edit with poor English-language skills, it makes things even worse.

So, either learn to communicate better in English or stop editing articles here in a way that requires other editors to fix your languager-related errors, or, preferably, edit the Wikipedia(s) in the language(s) you have better competency in. Beyond My Ken (talk) 18:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Signed up at 2007, but didn't have time contribute. It seems you're looking for trouble. I don't mean to harm anyone. Why don't you chill? It's a bad habit. And language matter: I use approriate languge while editing. There is no problem in articles. People can make mistakes at talk pages. You don't need to give grammar lecture for this.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 21:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On the contrary, I have looked at some of your article edits, a random sample, and there are language problems with them that have to be corrected by other editors. That's not acceptable, so get better at writing in English or stop doing article edits.

As for my "looking for trouble", it's your behavior which is the subject of this report, including your early POV-vandalism edits, when you blanked entire articles you disagreed with, and not excepting the retaliatory report you filed below, which Drmies rightfully closed as being WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, why do you write falsehoods that are so easily disproven? "Signed up at [sic] 2007, but didn't have time [sic] contribute," you wrote. Well, that's bullshit. You made 26 edits in 2007, which is 31% of your current total, and 17 of those were edits to articles, which is 37% of your article edits. So were were quite active in 2007, by your standards, and it remains true that you're not a "newbie" I'm driving away by pointing out the problems with your editing. You are, clearly, a POV-warrior deficient in English who shouldn't be editing here, and certainly shouldn't be editing in the manner you are. Beyond My Ken (talk) 22:19, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I no longer object to an indef block for Kafkasmurat. I just warned them for soapboxing and I made this revert. In addition, I'm wondering about their connection to 212.174.38.3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS), an address I just blocked for the same kind of anti-Armenian attitude--that is, the attitude that Armenians are holding out and Wikipedia editors are enabling it. I see that Kafkasmurat just posted on my talk page again; I can't wait to see what the news is now. At any rate, since I warned them and made a revert of their edits, I don't think I should be pulling the trigger on a block of any length right now, though I see no reason why I shouldn't if this continues. I hope this thread hasn't gone cold. Drmies (talk) 16:18, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Template:Uninvolvededitor When in doubt, WP:CHECKUSER. Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 09:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Unfortunately (and I really mean that; it is, I think, a very unfortunate and damaging policy choice) CheckUsers will not connect an account with an IP, which, of course, allows editors with accounts to sock fairly freely by hiding behind IPs. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:01, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Really? The second sentence on WP:CHECKUSER says the opposite. Or am I reading something incorrectly? Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 18:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • It's not very clearly written. As I understand it, CheckUsers do access IP data, and will use that to connect two or more named accounts, but what they will not do (at least anymore - I swear I remember them doing it when I first became aware of CheckUsers and sockpuppetry investigations 6 or 7 years ago) is publicly connect a named account to an IP address, because (I guess) by doing so they would provide location information for that named account, which would be WP:OUTING and violate WMF privacy rules. If I am correct about this, it means that there's no point in listing suspected IP socks with a single named account when filing an SPI, unless you expect a block on behaviorial grounds alone, because even if the CheckUser finds a connection between between the named account and a suspected IP sock, they won't block the IP sock, since that would be a de facto public admission of a connection.

          If I'm wrong about this, I hope that a CheckUser, or someone who has been a CheckUser in the past, will correct me. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

          • Personally, I feel that vandals and vandalizing socks give up their privacy rights by abusing the site's terms of service, and that we shouldn't bend over backwards to preserve their privacy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
          • BMK, you are correct: CU does not link to IPs (at least not for us). As far as I know. Drmies (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Hi fellows. Firstly i'm not vandal. I don't harm any article. I don't edit without reference. Vandalism means being "only harmful" i guess. Secondly, i don't intend to upset anyone. That's a harsh conversation you're making. I just said something at "talk page". Is this enough to make someone "vandal"?? Finally, i have references, a base for talk pages i think; I have internet information, I can use proxies or different usernames but it's not my philosophy; "Anything you do, comes back, nothing is out of reason" i don't hide. Also, I contribute to other Wiki projects, i like giving away, never involved in such this judgement.--Kafkasmurat (talk) 23:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one has said, or implied, that you are a vandal - the discussion simply drifted into another area when it was questioned whether your account was related to a blocked IP account. No, the issues concerning you here are two: primarily that your talk page comments are seen as "ridiculous and offensive", which, given their extremely pointed POV nature doesn't seem like an unreasonable assessment; and, secondarily, that you should not contribute to English Wikipedia articles given your level of English competency, as amply demonstrated by your comment above this one. Those are separate complaints, please don't conflate them. Beyond My Ken (talk) 20:08, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • This, for instance, is not sufficiently correctly-written to be acceptable on English Wikipedia:

      11th century book Divânu Lügati't-Türk mentions archetypes of Mehtaran, Turkish military band tradition. It was an essential part of the military. Formed by soldiers. Ottomans obtained this tradition from Seljuks. 17th century traveler Evliya Çelebi noted that the Ottoman Empire had 40 guilds of musicians in 1670's.

      I understand that your command of English is more than sufficient for colloquial use, but your addition of material such as this to an encyclopedia is problematic, as it makes us looks foolish and requires other editors to fix your words. Please do not contribute to Wikipedia articles until your command of English is sufficient to do so. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:33, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Juzumaru (talk · contribs) has some kind of anti-Korean 21st century political agenda (no need for diffs -- every single edit he has made this month is consistent), and has been misrepresenting sources and messing up articles on subjects like classical Japanese poetry based on this agenda.[23] I have tried contacting him on his talk page,[24] and asked him to use article talk pages, but he has ignored me and kept reverting me, and tried to change the definition of the word toraijin.[25] He also cryptically requested (in Japanese, which he speaks more intelligibly than English) that I contact him on his talk page, despite his failure to acknowledge previous attempts.[26] Ć I'm on a smart phone, so only one diff at a time.

182.249.240.10 (talk) 15:41, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

UPDATE He has apparently finally replied to me on his talk page, asking me (in Japanese) for quotations from the sources I already cited. This is, as far as I know, not a requirement on Wikipedia, and is difficult as hell to do on a phone (my only Internet source at the moment). I also a quote would stop him, given how he has otherwise dismissed all the sources, and he keeps misrepresenting the meaning of a certain word, apparently assuming he's the only one on English Wikipedia who speaks Japanese, imagine what he could do with an entire block of text. 182.249.240.9 (talk) 16:01, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've not looked at it all but Toraijin just means an immigrant to Japan, not specifically Korean. It can be used for all people who came to settle in Japan from overseas. Canterbury Tail talk 16:33, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know, but the sources all specifically say Baekje. Juzumaru is dismissing all but one of my sources, and refusing to actually read that one source, instead judging it by its title. His edit summary in English also implies he is claiming the word specifically means someone NOT from Korea, which is wrong. 182.249.240.33 (talk) 16:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note it appears that there is now a massive edit war going on over the Japanese invasion of Korea with mass changes and it looks like not a small amount of sockpuppetry. Canterbury Tail talk 16:40, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about that. I edit classical Japanese literature articles on the Kojiki and Manyoshu related topics. In fact, when it come to modern politics, I'm probably closer to "Juzumaru's side". 182.249.240.33 (talk) 16:46, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The definition of the ja word 渡来/torai (人/jin means person) is here. What's the problem? The next sentence on the Yamanoue no Okura article specifically says He is believed to have been one of the refugees from the Korean kingdom of Baekje (called Kudara in Japanese) who fled the Korean peninsula for Baekje's close ally Japan after their kingdom was invaded by Tang China. Oda Mari (talk) 17:37, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. But think about it: why does Juzumaru want to go out of his way to remove the word "Korean" from the opening sentence? And why does he keep insisting that the word toraijin doesn't specifically mean Korean (something I never claimed)? The most obvious answer seems to be that he wants to remove reference to Korea, but his poor English skill led him to miss the second sentence's reference to Kudara. This is consistent with the far-right, fringe POV that has apparently informed every other edit he has made on English Wikipedia. I am also increasingly troubled by the edit war CT above mentions. Can we get a mass CU on the SPAs in that dispute? (If I'm gonna talk about sockpuppetry, I should probably disclose that I have an account, but when I try to edit from it on my phone I keep getting logged out and losing my edits.) 182.249.240.15 (talk) 03:36, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for this is written in genealogy dictionary of Japan.(Shinsen Shōjiroku) Mainstream of the Traijin was the Chinese who lived in the Korean Peninsula. (foreign: 326 families; of those, 163 were from China, 104 from Baekje, 41 from Goguryeo, 9 from Silla, and 9 from Gaya.) I do not deny the possibility that Okura's ancestors came from the Korean Peninsula. However, reference cited is not certain his ethnicity. Therefore, scholars did not write "Okura is a Korean." --Juzumaru (talk) 14:41, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

They wrote this about the Yamanoue-Okura.[27] If someone refute this opinion, he is far-right? Yamanoue no Okura was a famous poet in eighth-century Japan, who immigrated from Korean Baekje.[93][94][95] Influenced by the Madhyamika School of Buddhism growing out of his Former Baekje cultural heritage,[93] he addressed social concerns through his poem,[96] unlike other Japanese poets of the time, who spoke for the ethos of land, love, death and devine monarchy.[97] He later became a tutor to the crown prince and Governor of a province in Japan.[93] The reputation of Yamanoue no Okura has sharply risen in the twentieth century,[98] he became, in the general consensus of sub-sequent centuries of Japanese literary scholarship, one of the most memorable, most influential, and today most often cited poets of the Old Japanese period.[93] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juzumaru (talk • contribs) 14:05, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Read the sources I cited, please. All of them state that he came (or possibly came) from the Korean state of Baekje. You haven't cited a single source that says otherwise. You clearly are not an expert in this area, so why the hell should the rest of us have to take your word on this? Anyway, you don't know "my POV" so stop assuming bad faith by claiming my edits are rooted in some kind of pro-Korean, anti-Japanese POV (nothing could be further from the truth). 182.249.240.25 (talk) 15:00, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly speaking, this IP user(182.249.240.xxx) is clueless in the Japan classic literature. And, "he came (or possibly came) from the Korean state of Baekje" is not written in the source. (Baekje is ruined in the 600 when Okura was born. ）182.249.240.xxx, You'll read WP:WEIGHT. Your claim is not a common sense. I quote an article of Yamaue-no-Okura from a Japanese well-known encyclopedia.

• "Nihon Rekishi Jinbutsu Jiten" published by The Asahi Shinbun 奈良時代の歌人。『万葉集』に,推定作を含む長歌11首,短歌60首余,旋頭歌1首,漢詩文3首を残す。また『類聚歌林』を編んだが,現存しない。大宝1(701)年遣唐少録に任ぜられる際に,「无位山於億良」と『続日本紀』にみえる...
• Heibonsha World Encyclopedia万葉歌人。701年(大宝1)遣唐少録，714年(和銅7)従五位下，716年(霊亀2)伯耆守，721年(養老5)東宮(のちの聖武天皇)の侍講となり，726年(神亀3)ころ筑前守赴任，732年(天平4)帰京して翌年卒したらしい。
• "Dainihon Jinmei Jiten" (Dictionary of Japanese Biography) published by The Kodansha斉明天皇6年生まれ。大宝(たいほう)2年遣唐(けんとう)少録として唐(中国)にわたる。帰国後伯耆守(ほうきのかみ),東宮侍講をへて筑前守(ちくぜんのかみ)となり,大宰府で大伴旅人(おおともの-たびと)らとまじわった。
• Daijisen published by The Shogakukan［660～733ころ］奈良前期の官人・歌人。大宝2年（702）渡唐し、帰国後、伯耆守(ほうきのかみ)・東宮侍講・筑前守を歴任。思想性・社会性をもつ歌を詠んだ。
• Daijirin（660～733頃） 奈良前期の官人・歌人。遣唐少録として渡唐。帰国後伯耆守・東宮侍講・筑前守を歴任。筑前守時代に大伴旅人と親交。漢文学の学殖深く，その影響下に人生的・社会的題材の歌を詠んだ。万葉集に多くの歌を残す。家集「類聚歌林」は伝わらない。

There is no famous encyclopedia of Japan written, "Okura is Korean". --Juzumaru (talk) 16:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone please WP:BLOCK or WP:TBAN Juzumaru per WP:NOTHERE. 182.249.240.31 (talk) 10:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[Personal attack removed]

After that bizarre final attack on me, the user apparently has decided to confine himself to ja.wiki. I have contacted him on his talk page there, and hopefully we have worked out our differences. I wanted him to stay off JLit articles in areas he clearly doesn't understand, and if he's staying off English Wikipedia altogether then I guesd that's solved. This thread can (probably) be closed now. 182.249.240.39 (talk) 14:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've prepared the Talkpage to the Japanese version of Wikipedia for this anonymous user. And, he would be happy. --Juzumaru (talk) 02:28, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone should leave a message on Juzumaru's talk page advising them to edit the Japanese Wikipedia, because it's evident that they speak Japanese with more fluency than they do English. Epicgenius (talk) 17:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Done -- Ross HillTalk to me! 17:27, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Question. So, what happened to the ArbCom restriction on a certain editor (who frequently edits Japanese poetry) to use a single account? Someone not using his real name (talk) 17:11, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What ArbCom restriction? Show me a diff? I was asked in a private e-mail from User:Salvio giuliano not to edit under more than one named account. There has never been any restrictionon using an IP when editing under an account is technically problematic, and I have been open here. 182.249.240.28 (talk) 18:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, looks like 182.249.240 is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). 114.164.183.136 (talk) 19:22, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 Request: An administrator needs to close this thread as a content dispute. No admin action is needed. Ross HillTalk to me! 03:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a content dispute. I won the specific content dispute before posting here. The problem is that every single one of the user's edits demonstrate a clear political agenda incompatible with constructing a neutral encyclopedia. Hence my contention that he should be TBANned from, say, Korea-related topics. I'd say if he was banned from promoting an anti-Korean agenda he would stop editing Wikipedia entirely. 182.249.240.4 (talk) 03:00, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

 No comment w/r/t the above dispute, but its discouraged to frame content disputes in terms of winning/losing, per WP:BATTLEGROUND. LFaraone 17:42, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can I get opinions on Antidiskriminator's conduct at the talkpage of the recently created Anti-Serb pogrom in Sarajevo article? I had opened an informal move suggestion section only to hear him tell me that I must file a formal WP:RM after a lengthy discussion and a third opinion was voiced agreeing on the suggestion. I could have been bold and moved it from the start as one can't speak of a formal RM discussion for the initial poorly worded title either, but I figured the right and proper thing to do was to hear his opinion and that of other interested editors on the matter first. I voiced my arguments and offered a compromise title to which a third user had stated it was a improvement over the one that Antidiskriminator preferred. By that time Antidiskriminator effectively suggested we pretend the informal move discussion did not occur and have us simply reiterate our prior arguments in a formal one. I pointed out that he had only done so only when a resemblance of consensus had come about and that it was simple stonewalling on his part. I specifically pointed out that WP:RM states that "it is not always necessary to formally request a move in these circumstances: one option is to start an informal discussion at the article's talk page instead." I and other editors have had previous frustrations with his conduct in the past and as result I have limited patience given I know where the discussions may carry. My prior significant interaction with him was being involved in discussions that carried months on end thanks to his extraordinary effort to force his POV while I and a co-editor were attempting to promote a article to featured status. [30][31] --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 01:52, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The article itself seems to have very carefully cherrypicked content, but I suppose we have to accept that as normal in the Balkans.

Back on topic, reliable sources tend to prefer language like "demonstrations" and "rioting" so it's rather frustrating that this article has been transformed into a "pogrom"; a pogrom is a massacre, and in reality, the events were not a massacre. Of course with the article's creator stonewalling, and an ally on hand who provides Antidiskriminator with unwavering support in each RM, it's unlikely that any requested move towards a more neutral name would succeed. bobrayner (talk) 02:39, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, PRODUCER, the informal move discussion is really you and 1 other editor. An RM doesn't always attract more attention than that, but it's tough to argue that one isn't required here when there are only 3 participants. Some advertising on the RM by making a formal RM would actually help. Although now with Bobrayner commenting here, my comments might already be out of date.--v/r - TP 02:42, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not involved on this article, and I have little intention of getting involved, because I'm tired of spending hours trying to bring other Balkan history articles in line with sources only to see the edits automatically reverted by the same old editors. I wish PRODUCER the best of luck. bobrayner (talk) 02:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User Bobrainer is a usual participant in Serb-related subjects who´s open purpose is to fight Serb nationalist fantasy, so it is not a surprise his comment here which involves a historical article where Serbs were victims. It is already usual to see the same group of editors diminishing events that happend to Serbs, but in a similar reverse event pushing for a "Massacre" title. Regarding the issue here, the RM would have been appropriate just as TParis said. FkpCascais (talk) 03:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; I have stalkers, it goes with the territory and it was inevitable that somebody would turn up sooner or later and misrepresent one of my edits. I stand by that diff (I stand by what I actually said; it's true; I don't stand by what you just said here because that's not true), and if you want to raise the issue here, I can provide a dozen examples. Several of the recent ones involve you proxying for sanctioned editors, or just directly contradicting what sources say. However, I'd rather we stuck to the topic in this particular thread: Anti-Serb pogrom in Sarajevo. What do you think, FkpCascais?

Good folk of AN/I, I apologise; discussions in this area tend to get out of hand. bobrayner (talk) 07:31, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I already said, a proper RM would seem correct, as there were only a few participants in that discussion, and a RM would certainly bring more partcipants thus making it possible for a consensus to be reached. (P.S.: I didn´t stalked you, by chance I noteced this thread even before anyone commented it, but once I saw you kind of winning clearly taking sides in this specific dispute, I needed to say that you are far from uninvolved in these matters as you presented yourself to be. Just that.) FkpCascais (talk) 08:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just a quick note - tagging move discussions with WP:RM will trigger bots to advertize the discussion on the Article alerts pages of all tagged WikiProjects. So, assuming all the relevant WPs are tagged, this would bring attention to the issue from members of the community much better than AN/I. It's probably annoying to have to say "please read [[#title discussion]] above", but it's not actually useless. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 08:28, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Joy, we are both aware of how requested moves typically go down here. Editors belonging to a particular ethnic/national "voting bloc" usually "stumble" (Fkp's little "notice by chance" above is a case in point) into the discussion and loyally vote their title regardless of what evidence or arguments are at hand. Antidiskriminator's insistence that there must be a formal RM came only after some headway was made. His "contesting" through an article move revert is supported by no one but himself though he is quick to claim my move is consensus deficient. Amusing really. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 16:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Trying to claim a WP:TAGTEAM or WP:ALLSOCKS (although a better term would be all meat in this case) doesn't exactly encourage helpful discussion from Antidiskriminator or anyone else. KonveyorBelt 17:25, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. PRODUCER, I think the best approach right now is a full RM. Not because Antidiskriminator asked for one, but because there was really only 3 editors involved and a wider consensus would be helpful.--v/r - TP 17:35, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by my observation given my time here, but I'll file the RM at your insistence. --◅ PRODUCER (TALK) 20:09, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know what you're saying but the process can't really be optimized further. At the end of the day we depend on RM closing admins not to be clueless and ignore votes in favor of arguments. --Joy [shallot] (talk) 20:53, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This image was accidentally reduced to Fair use sizes, but is, in fact, PD-Text (the rationale everyone forgets about). Can someone please restore the full size?

Thank you,

Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 09:37, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This is still copyrighted. Title pages are also "other protected type in sense of the local copyright law," according to commons:Template:PD-text. --George Ho (talk) 09:40, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, title pages may be eligible for British copyright. George Ho (talk) 09:46, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

1. No, that is completely wrong. None of the copyrightable music appears in the image. Commons' statements are not relevant: Commons works under international law, only American copyright law matters HERE. Please review Wikipedia:Public_domain#Non-creative_works.
2. Only American copyright applies on English Wikipedia. That may well be a reason not to move it to commons, but has no relevance to here. Adam Cuerden ^(talk) 09:48, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get your "interpretation" on the guideline. It doesn't say that English Wikipedia must follow solely on the American law. George Ho (talk) 19:57, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Copyrights#Governing_copyright_law - Hope this helps. - ^theWOLFchild 02:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ((Non-administrator comment))[reply]

• "Only American copyright applies on English Wikipedia" - I can't make this NOPE big enough. Wikipedia must respect both American copyright law and the copyright law of the country of origin. This is why there are some (perhaps even "many") cases where something is PD in the country of origin but is copyrighted in the United States and, thus, cannot be freely used here. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 04:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please see {{Do not move to Commons}} and pages that use it, e.g. File:Marcel Duchamp Mona Lisa LHOOQ.jpg. We care about the PD-in-origin-but-not-USA cases because we're a USA-based organisation and could be liable for copyright infringement lawsuits for those cases. Unlike Commons, we don't care about PD-in-USA-but-not-origin cases by longstanding policy, and since we're not a UK-based organisation, we're not liable to copyright infringement lawsuits for those cases. Of course, if you're in the UK you might be liable to an individual lawsuit; that's why we've always been careful to remind non-Americans to follow their own laws, and when they find PD-in-USA-but-not-origin images from their own countries, to ask American editors to upload the images in question in order to avoid problems. Nyttend (talk) 06:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Demetrioscz have deleted a discussion content. With this argument: remove personal comments about the article page. Those are claims of the book's author. Only discussions regarding how to improve the article should be present here. You can cite reliable 3rd party sources. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Cartwheels_in_a_Sari:_A_Memoir_of_Growing_Up_Cult&action=history --Richard Reinhardt (talk) 17:17, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Demetrioscz is correct in his edit. The comments at the talk page are not related to the improvement of the article, but are someone's rebuttal to the content of the book. Please do not restore the commentary again. Additionally, you should read Wikipedia:Free speech. You do not have the right to free speech on the Wikimedia project. only (talk) 17:27, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only - of course Richard Reinhardt has freedom of speech on a Wikimedia project. The United States Government cannot come here and remove his comments! However, any Wikipedia editor could remove them and there is nothing he can do about it. =) --v/r - TP 17:38, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Sure there is! He can file an ANI. :D - ^theWOLFchild 02:11, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ((Non-administrator comment))[reply]

Settai3 was warned about uploading several copyrighted images yesterday.[34] Despite this, the user has continued to upload a number of images, sometimes even replacing fair use images for new copyrighted ones.LM2000 (talk) 18:13, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The uploads are happening over at the Commons, not here. I have put a (second) final warning on their Commons talk page and will post something on their talk page on this wiki as well. I have also posted at the Commons admin notice board. -- Diannaa (talk) 18:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

NOTE relevant archived thread: Legal threats by User:Ante Vranković -- Brangifer (talk) 00:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ante Vranković (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Can another administrator please step in and consider the latest unblock request at User talk:Ante Vranković? I think we're getting a little combative there, and it would be good for another administrator to step in and make a decision or add an outside view sooner rather than later. only (talk) 18:14, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) If he is re-blocked, I suggest revoking his talk page access too. Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 20:47, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A penchant for lawyering, invoking the Foundation, arguing semantics, general combativeness, and all this with only 23 edits. I don't see why this user needs to be unblocked. -- John Reaves 22:12, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NOTHERE. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:26, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

well, he was unblocked by TParis, so we'll have to keep an eye on him now as he edits. None so far outside the talk page. only (talk) 22:43, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Seriously, take him at his latest offer: "if it will make you feel better, you are free to completely block my account now, so that I won`t be able to put out the obvious facts about the case (this is my official statement/agreement on that)." This editor is up to no good. His threat is still hanging in the background. While we can let him know that the Foundation has no power to prevent him from pursuing legal action outside of Wikipedia, we cannot allow anyone to edit who would even dream of doing it. Period. The very thought of doing so must be expunged from their mentality, and that seems to be out of the question with this editor. They totally assume bad faith about everyone who disagrees with them, calling them liars, and they are therefore unfit to be here. So, an indef ban and lock the talk page, and don't follow their suggestion to "unblock my account now or delete it as it never eXisted." No, we keep the account open for the record for all editors to see. We can blank the page, but not delete the history. -- Brangifer (talk) 01:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• No "other administrator with an outside view" is needed here. If TParis blocked him, then it was probably for a good reason. TP usually knows what he's doing, and doesn't need a back-seat/Monday morning admin stepping in. - ^theWOLFchild 02:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ((Non-administrator comment))[reply]

• I'm not quite sure you understand the situation here. The user was seeking unblock which TParis eventually granted a few hours after I posted this thread. only (talk) 02:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oops, got that backward. But, hey, if TP unblocked him, I'm sure that was for a good reason too. Now we'll just see what happens... - ^theWOLFchild 03:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Subsequent comments by Ante indicate a need for an indef. -- Brangifer (talk) 05:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree. This is just his talk page. He is a little upset and there is a language barrier issue. Give him a chance to cool down and see what he does. - ^theWOLFchild 06:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Wolfchild. Blocking is generally not an urgent matter when all that's happening is talk. While I had suggested in the previous thread that consideration be given to not unblocking even in light of a retraction, TParis should be given deference with respect to that decision. Sounding angry or combative is, while a bad sign, not on its own grounds for blocking, especially in light of the recent unblock. Tempers are running high. We should be cool. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

StAnselm (talk · contribs) and Pass a Method (talk · contribs) seem to be locked in edit wars at Lot (biblical person) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Tree of life (biblical) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views), Garden of Eden (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Christianity (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Other than blocking them both I can't think of any other alternative than some form of interaction ban. Dougweller (talk) 21:41, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• An interaction ban would probably make things worse. Since they both edit in the same area, that would be equivalent to saying that the first of them to make an edit to an article can't be reverted, or indeed that the other editor couldn't ever edit that article. Some sort of 1RR restriction would probably be better. Or alternatively blocking them both for a while wouldn't be unreasonable - they're both gaming 3RR on all of those articles (I think StAnselm has even broken it on Tree of Life). Black Kite (talk) 21:49, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I didn't think I had, but I think that's because I was assuming move reversions didn't count. Anyway, I made two reverts[36][37], and one edit seeking a compromise solution[38]. Obviously, I realise that edit-warring is not necessarily breaking 3RR, but I just wanted to clarify this. StAnselm (talk) 22:44, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per Black Kite and also because my own observation is that StAnselm does yeoman's work in Biblical areas while Pass a Method's involvement is generally disruptive and POV-ish. Roccodrift (talk) 21:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Protect articles Curiously enough, I find that StAnselm's efforts are POVish and he's prone to edit-warring (as shown above). This calls for protecting the articles from non-admin edits to force them to discuss rather than revert. MilesMoney (talk) 22:01, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support 1RR restriction. I prefer a 1 revert-rule restriction between myself and StAnselm, but alternatively would be fine with a interaction ban. It is frustrating when you've spent two to three hours gathering sources and then somebody reverts you with a vague or non-applicable edit summary. It would also be helpful when i'm in the midst of work-in-progress; my edits usually take between an hour or so in between them, but stanselm sometimes judges me by my first incomplete edit. If i was allowed time to include my unfinished draft which included Baha'i scripture and the Book of Mormon, the setence would make sense. Pass a Method talk 22:06, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• There is a preview function that can prevent this, as well as using a sandox. -- John Reaves 00:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment - there is more going on between the two of us than just the resurrection of these old edit wars, of course. Pass a Method and I have had a lot of interaction lately. I thought things were improving after this exchange on my talk page, but since then Pass a Method has accused me of Eurocentric editing and then started a thread on Jimbo Wales' talk page, which to all appearances was accusing me of racism. StAnselm (talk) 22:50, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I had another editor in mind, not you. Pass a Method talk 22:52, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hence my "to all appearances". But you talk page post came immediately after this edit on my talk page and after a string of edits to Tree of life (biblical), Garden of Eden, and their respective talk pages. That certainly makes it look suspicious. StAnselm (talk) 22:58, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have interacted with dozens of editors over the past two weeks. Pass a Method talk 23:08, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support 1RR interaction restriction per Pass a Method, I've not seen Pass a Method doing POV questionable edits but they certainly may have. I cannot say the same for the other editor, and across a variety of subjects that all seem to lie in contentious areas related to conservatism. That they are both overall improving things is of course debatable, but minimizing the back and forth on articles is probably best. Sportfan5000 (talk) 23:04, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose interaction ban / Support 1RR restriction - I requested page protection for Garden of Eden and saw some edit warring on a couple of other articles on my watchlist. These two editors approach religious/spiritual topics from completely different points of view. I think an interaction ban would unfairly penalize one party in favor of the other, but a 1RR restriction on articles that they both edit would force discussion sooner and avoid edit wars.- MrX 23:07, 25 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support indefinite blocks of both with no TP/email access and indefinite full protection of ALL affected articles: I don't even think a mutual 1RR restriction goes far enough in this case. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 01:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- "Kill'em all, and let God sort'em out"...? That's a little over the top. I'm sure 1RR, plus 24hr. block for any over-3RR's will suffice. - ^theWOLFchild 02:02, 26 December 2013 (UTC) ((Non-administrator comment))[reply]

Nukes for Xmas, huh? Someone not using his real name (talk) 01:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why yes.... I MEAN NO... - Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 09:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support fresh trout for Bigpoliticsfan for dramatizing things further. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose trouting In ictu oculi for failing to understand irony. ;) Iselilja (talk) 03:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately it's not, I searched the ANI archive box to see Bigpoliticsfan's previous appearances at ANI for context, confirmed that it isn't irony below. Rather odd comments for a new editor. Anyway, User:Iselilja the issue is whether repeatedly reposting additions like this should be reverted or not. St Anselm is reverting repeated additions of an editor who refuses to listen or stop - making reversions that you or I or any other responsible WP Religion editor should have been making with St Anselm. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:15, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I don't have the time or inclination to investigate this, but my canned suggestion is as follows: if this is a dispute about the same topic spread across multiple articles, then a RfC should be started on one page and pointers left on the others. If these two are edit warring about different topics, then blocks of both are probably justified, unless there is (going to be) consensus here that one's edits were way outside policies, in which case a single-sided block would be ok. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Someone not using his real name (talk • contribs) 01:46, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose interaction ban - the WikiProject Religion / WikiProject Christianity editor pool has been decimated over the last 5 years to the point where there are barely enough competent editors to keep out the tidal wave of internet fringe. History2007 quitting and John Carter having admin tools removed for (in my view) opposing fringe and then retiring. This inevitably means that the small number of editors capable of keeping the large article stock free of fringe is going to be more prone to 3RRs. I'm referring positively to StAnselm. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

On closer look User:Dougweller, from what I can see User:Pass a Method has (a) been attempting to add Islamic weight to leads of Bible articles which are generally weighted as Jewish/Christian in English sources. That may or may not be justifiable but before radical changes discussion should at WP Judaism, WP Christianity, WP Islam noticeboards. (b) Pass a Method has been making undiscussed moves of Bible figures from (biblical person) to (Abrahamic person) which again may or may not be justifiable but before radical changes discussion should at WP Judaism, WP Christianity, WP Islam noticeboards. I haven't looked in great detail beyond the immediate edits but in every case where St Anselm has reverted these edits if History2007 John Carter were still around I think it would be 3 editors reverting not 3RR. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The wide variety of transliterations of the word "quran" means that google search returns are not always sufficiently indicative of weight, i.e. quran, koran, qur'an, alkoran, coran, alquran, qoran, Qur'ân, Qur'ān, Qurʾān, Ḳurʾān etc. Pass a Method talk 04:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Response - 1RR on Pass a Method only - it's evident from that reply that Pass a Method doesn't understand that his edits are at the very least controversial, if not disruptive.

Sportsfan and others, has anyone actually looked at the sort of edits StAnselm is reverting and Pass a Method is pushing back? The Garden of Eden is the Biblical "garden of God", described most notably in the Quran and the Book of Genesis. Isn't this WP:OR as well as WP:POV? Is the Garden of Eden is described most notably in the Quran before the Book of Genesis? Is there anybody on this section who wouldn't revert this edit?

If you read it that way, yes, but if you rememeber that other scriptures mention the Garden of Eden such as Some Answered Questions [39] or Sahih Muslim [40], or Sahih Bukhari [41], or Book of Mormon then no. Out of those 6 books, it is most notable in genesis and the Quran and i stand by that. Pass a Method talk 04:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't take long to see that StAnselm apparently disapproves of a variety of "blue state" ideals, and edits to remove things they don't like, even if true and referenced, in any way possible. On Wikipedia this is rather easy and unless someone actually stops them they simply continue on degrading content and articles based on their ideology. I don't see that pattern with Pass a Method, instead I see a more broadening of subject matter to encompass more viewpoints, at least widely respected ones. Often backed up with sourcing. Then StAnselm counteracts to remove more content. This is exactly opposite their trajectory on subjects for which they approve. I suppose the same could be said of many editors but that is what I see. In summary I trust Pass A Method's editing. Sportfan5000 (talk) 04:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like out point out a couple of things that I have posted on my user page. The first is that I live in Australia. So while I am familiar with the term "blue state", I do not belong on the U.S. political spectrum. (I mention this also because Pass a Method apparently accused me of Anglo-American bias. I am not "Anglo-" either.) The second thing about me that I have posted on my user page is that, yes - I am a Christian. Now, obviously I understand the issues of neutrality and systemic bias as they pertain to Wikipedia. I try as much as possible to be neutral and objective in my edits. Interestingly, though, most of the articles under dispute are particularly Hebrew Bible topics. From my perspective, this edit from Pass a Method is somewhat akin to me editing the article so that the lead sentence says "The tree of life... is a term used in Revelation 22:1–2 and the Book of Genesis..." That, indeed, would be a POV edit. StAnselm (talk) 05:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

：：：：：：：：Sportsfan5000, I have no idea what "blue state" means, nor does it help me to identify any good edits in Pass a Method's contrib history. To get a benchmark, do you consider this a good/keepable or bad/revertable edit? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oculi, who said that edit was complete? I was reverted within 10 minutes of making that edit. I was planning to put it into context by adding Book of Mormon, Some Answered Questions mentions too. If you had read my first post you would have known that. Pass a Method talk 06:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And this makes me wonder - why didn't you say that on the talk page? Why didn't you start a discussion? Surely this doesn't count as discussing. So why didn't you follow WP:BRD? You have all these great facts about the Quran - why didn't you post them on the article talk page(s) instead of re-reverting? StAnselm (talk) 07:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well perhaps they were in process of improving the article and didn't realize they would have to negotiate every step of the way, even if ultimately their edits would work just fine for all concerned. People do get tired of having to battle just to improve articles. Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Pass a Method should have known it from last time (where, I should point out, he made four edits, and I only reverted one of them) and had almost a month to draft some suitable text. StAnselm (talk) 08:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I already had collected references for Baha'i scriptures, yet after you revision my draft would no longer make as much sense. Pass a Method talk 16:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment I have no suggestions for what a solution should be, but what it shouldn't be is a double indefinite block; I can't imagine any situation in which Bigpoliticsfan's suggestion would be appropriate. A quick glance at SA's talk and PAM's talk shows plenty of comments from PAM on SA's talk, many of which are rather strongly worded and seemingly hostile, while there's only one comparable note from SA on PAM's talk. For examples of what I mean, see 23:26, 24 December 2013 (SA to PAM) and 05:42, 13 November 2013, 05:32, 10 December 2013 and the comment above it, 23:48, 22 December 2013, and 00:06, 23 December 2013 (PAM to SA). It definitely seems as if PAM's assuming bad faith more readily than SA, and the diffs that SA gives (example, 02:27, 23 December 2013) seem to back up his statements, while the diffs that PAM gives (example, 05:42, 13 November 2013) don't appear to be grounded in reality. Their talk page interactions are definitely not equally problematic. Nyttend (talk) 03:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment: This calls for the WWJLP solution. WWJLP stands for What would Jean-Luc Picard do? Picard would recommend that both editors work this out with an independent mediator selected by and amenable to both parties and agree to abide by their decision. The deliberation should consist of brief statements from both parties, followed by questions from the mediator, and two closing statements in response to those questions. This should take no more than a few days to a week. Engage. Viriditas (talk) 05:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Viriditas, I am pretty confident that Jean Luc-Picard would revert this edit? If not, why not? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said above, that was not my full edit. I was reverted in 10 minutes in the midts of work-in-progress. Pass a Method talk 06:23, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Prime Directive would prevent him from interfering. Viriditas (talk) 06:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Which shows the difference between a Wikipedia editor seeing someone insert Garden of Eden notable in the Quran and Genesis and reverting it and being on a starship. It's seems to be that some editors here don't understand the point of reverting edits. The Wikipedia religion articles are fringe and POV magnets, the Jesus article for example bleeps daily with editors reverting most of the edits made to it, and the main activity is simply preserving the article. The Bible articles where Pass a Method is making edits such as placing the Quran ahead of the Bible in the lead are typical of religion articles which have been long stable, finished and where new material is almost always bad. This is an example. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's about textual neutrality itself, not about being neutral on a starship. If you want to change the behavior here, then it's best to address both sides with a neutral mediator approved by both. As for the content itself, I think you will find a multitude of interpretations. I, for one, would bump up its legendary origins and role in mythological literature and downplay its importance in religion. After all, it is not as important as other religious issues on the table, and I don't personally believe that any religious narrative should dominate or supersede the comparative literature approach. And yet, we see this religious bias throughout Wikipedia, an encyclopedic work that should remain neutral in regards to scriptural interpretations. The fall of man narrative is not unique to any one religion as the Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil#Motif and Fall_of_Man#Similar traditions sections show. Funny how both sides ignore that fact. From where I stand, this a Babylonian myth and should be treated primarily as such. I'm sure you will disagree, hence the need for a neutral mediator that both parties will respect. Viriditas (talk) 06:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Amen! Sportfan5000 (talk) 07:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes but when you compare Genesis and the Quran to the other scriptures out there mentioning the garden of eden - then it WOULD make sense, wouldn't it? Pass a Method talk 06:47, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment: I forgot to mention this before, but in the interests of full disclosure, there is a draft RfC/U concerning Pass a Method, to which I contributed suggestions. StAnselm (talk) 05:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment StAnselm, so you're not gonna comment on whether you support an interaction ban or 1RR restriction between us? Pass a Method talk 05:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I had been holding off to see what explanation you would give for your conduct, but in light of the anti-conservative bias you explicitly articulate, and in light of these edits [42][43][44] indicating either a refusal to discuss issues on talk pages, or else an incompetence in doing so, I would support a topic ban for Pass a Method on all religious articles. StAnselm (talk) 04:17, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• CommentAs I started this I'm being bold and changing my section heading to include a 1RR restriction, which I see as a much better solution. I'm trouting myself (virtually) for not thinking about it first. User:Black Kite is right, and if I hadn't gone to bed I would have revised this then. I'd warned StAnselm over Garden of Eden where his 4th revert was just minutes outside 24 hours, didn't notice Tree of life (biblical) where he hit 4RR within 24 hours but by changing the order of words. I wouldn't want either to be blocked over this. Dougweller (talk) 06:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support 1RR restriction. Dougweller (talk) 06:17, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dougweller, from my perspective, the Quran is the only book in the world where millions of people have memorized chapters of it off the top of their head word for word. Plus I also know that the garden of eden is among the first stories told in the quran in sura Al-Baqara, plus it is repeated in many other quranic chapters. Hence its notability/weight to me is obvious without even necessarily doing a google search return count. Pass a Method talk 06:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

See Argumentum ad populum. As easy as it is to argue by the numbers or by authority, or by the majority, it is just as easy to argue that the textual roots of the Babylonian religion are older and are closer to the original text. Viriditas (talk) 07:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How many Christians can read the New Testamant back to front off the top of their head? none that I know of. As for Muslims, there are millions of those. In fact this is standard practise to enable Muslims to pray tarawih which actually requires full quran memorization. Pass a Method talk 06:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Again, Argumentum ad populum. Viriditas (talk) 07:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I already ¡voted for 1RR, and 24hr block for any 3RR violations. But, as with most major religious topics, things can (and have) become contentious. Perhaps any future edits by these two, should first have consensus on either the talk page or at the relevant WikiProject page. - ^theWOLFchild 06:38, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose all measures suggested. Since more details have emerged about the latest spat, it's clear that this is a continuation of the previous incident (from a month ago), so this should go to RfC/U and/or ArbCom. Transforming edit warring into slightly slower edit warring won't have any appreciable benefits. Someone not using his real name (talk) 07:06, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This post by User:Someone not using his real name (for which thanks), linking Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive820#Editor_deleting_Islamic_content pretty well makes all of the above irrelevant. The first diff given by Pass a Method in the previous Noah's Ark of sura Hud and the Book of Genesis is self-incriminating, although Pass a Method evidently has no concept of the problem. It is not an issue of Jewish/Christian bias that Wikipedia references Bible stories/articles to the Jewish/Christian Bible, it is simply following WP:RS, since WP:RS place the 1000BCE, or whenever, ancient Jewish stories first and then the 7th Century Quran mentions based on the Jewish stories second. Muhammad's writings are tertiary references, chronologically. A couple of words in a sura does not give the Quran primary billing ahead of the Hebrew Bible in wikipedia article space. I suggest this section be closed with 1RR on Pass a Method as an interim action and draft RfC/U opened ASAP. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:04, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Topic-ban Pass a Method. I perused the diffs and the previous incident, and I can't see why this is being framed as a symmetric situation of edit-warring, when we obviously have a POV-pushing, WP:ICANTHEARYOU editor trying to introduce novel and WP:UNDUE reading into articles, then edit-wars to keep it in, and an editor with a clue who reverts to a previous, consensus version, and occasionally loses temper in the process? I really do not see any kind of honest difference of opinion, just a disruptive editor who should be removed in the best interest of the encyclopedia? No such user (talk) 13:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • This won't happen on ANI because he clearly has fans; see the comments of Sportfan5000 above, for example. ANI is unsuitable for solving disputes unless they are very imbalanced in terms of numbers on each side of the BATTLE. ANI is also unsuitable for presenting large amounts of evidence. So on both counts this is more like the Tea Party situation that went to ArbCom in the summer. Someone not using his real name (talk) 13:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Someone not using his real name, re User:No such user's suggestion I would expect - the more I look at Pass a Method's pattern of edits - a topic ban would be the likely outcome of taking this to a more in depth location. But are you proposing starting from User:Halo Jerk1's draft RfC/U? (User Halo Jerk hasn't been online since 16 Dec. Are you proposing something/somewhere else? In ictu oculi (talk) 14:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see how i'm going to be judged over an incomplete set of edits, like i mentioned above; it was a work-in-progrress. Plus there has already been an RfC on weihgt given to religions; (see here), but the close was inconclusive. Pass a Method talk 16:48, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It seems clear to me that we need another RfC similar to the one earlier this year, but this time with alterations made to our guidelines, since its obvious this is currently a grey area. This entire dispute falls within that grey area. It doesn't matter what happens on this thread, because inevitably, a month from now, or a year from now similar situations are going to pop up. if we keep it as it is now, the only conclusion i can see is more editos leaving wikipedia, either through frustration and personally quitting, or through blocks, and we'll have even less editors than we have now. Pass a Method talk 17:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Come to think of it, StAnselms version of the article apppears to represent the Conservapedia version of the article; (see here). I'm pretty sure most wikipedians here don't want to turn wikipedia into Conservapedia do we? Pass a Method talk 17:37, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comparison between wikipedia andConservapedia:
  • Garden of Eden, on Conservapedia vs wikipedia - similar
  • Tree of life/knowledge, on Conservapedia vs wikipedia - similar
  • Lot, on Conservapedia vs wikipedia somewhat similar

Why should Wikipedia be similar to Conservapedia? Pass a Method talk 18:26, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment This discussion about (comparing) Conservapedia & WP is pointless and borders on AGF violation. If CPedia has RS (which meets WP standards) in its articles, then what's the beef? Is there a problem in our project simply because one wiki looks like another? Could it be that CPedia has copied from WP? So what?? – S. Rich (talk) 18:41, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not just an AGF violation (and it isn't borderline, either); it's an in-your-face civility violation, because it amounts to saying (to paraphrase) "Why don't you go somewhere else?" Roccodrift (talk) 18:45, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's not any sort of violation to point out the similarity. The violation is that Conservapedia is openly biased, so if WP articles look like it, then they're also biased. MilesMoney (talk) 19:22, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That, my friend, is the fallacy of Affirming the consequent. "Biased articles look like X. This article looks like X, therefore it's biased." It's the equivalent of saying. "Dogs have four legs. Horses also have four legs, therefore horses are dogs." StAnselm (talk) 21:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• • Yes, but conservapedia's mission statement purpusefully presents one point of view. If this happens on an article which is as general and all-encompassing as the garden of eden, then we aren't doing it correctly. Pass a Method talk 19:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• I checked the the Columbia Encyclopedia via Qeustia. That entry is only 5 lines long, and starts "Garden of Eden, in the Bible, first home to humankind". The last sentence says "also mentioned in the Quran". The Encyclopedia of World Mythology (2009) has no mention of the Quran. (HighBeam; paywall) Britannica has no mention of the Quran in the first 100 words (which is the only ones I can access, total article is 190). It's very common in a Western context to mostly relate Garden of Eden to the Genesis narrative. Of course, the world is changing and Wikipedia is meant to have a global focus, so the traditional Western of presenting this way may need modification. But there is hardly a straightforward answer on how to handle this. The question of how these articles should be structured is complex; several viewpoints may be valid, we should try not making it into a battleground. Iselilja (talk) 21:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but because of our Anglo-American focus guideline, wikipedia is different to those other encyclopedias. Pass a Method talk 21:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose proposal, support a ban on editing religion articles for Pass a Method only. Pass a Method has a long history of disruptive edits and edits against consensus, while StAnselm is one of Wikipedia's more productive editors. The comments by Pass a Method suggest an ideological motivation. -- 101.119.29.234 (talk) 21:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Either dole out mutual indefinite blocks or take this to AN and seek consensus for a mutual community ban. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigpoliticsfan (talk • contribs) 21:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Geez, I thought you were kidding. - ^theWOLFchild 21:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC) (Non-administrator comment) [reply]

No I'm not. This is a disgrace to the project of the first order. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 21:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Involved comment I consider myself involved, having myself been in a position similar to StAnslem, and this current situation feels far too familiar. Here is the pattern:

1. Pass a Method makes a Bold but problematic edit or move (often tendentious, reactionary, and not well thought out) often making similar problematic changes across multiple articles. (Example: Moving Lot (biblical person) to Lot (Abrahamic person) ???) Typically this is done with a bland edit summary that doesn't justify the edit such as "add content" or "copyedit" as if PaM is trying to slip the edit under the radar.

2. Someone (in this case StAnselm) recognizes the problem, reverts it, perhaps reverting parallel changes in other articles, and asking for discussion.

3. Instead of discussing, Pass a Method simply reverts back to their preferred version.

4. From this point the outcome varies, but generally ends up fairly quickly at a noticeboard, with a fair amount of reverting, user talk page templating, and often a bit of canvassing by PaM. ([45] [46] for instance).

All of this could be avoided and the disputes could be quickly resolved if PaM simply followed either WP:BRD or WP:STATUSQUO. Like others who have commented, I don't think an interaction ban would be the ideal solution, and I don't think a 1RR restriction would solve the problem. It looks like a couple people have mentioned RfC/U, and with all due respect to the OP, I think that would be a slightly better direction. ~Adjwilley (talk) 22:18, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a topic ban for Pass a Method, and Support an interaction ban for both. The "Abrahamic person" should be discussed at an RfC before someone runs off doing undiscussed moves (Pass a Method didn't reach out to the relevant WikiProject's for their comments)--especially since "Abrahamic" might not be the correct WP:UCN-compliant term for all contexts--such a move is thoroughly unnecessary since we've pretty much covered the Judeo-Christian contexts in the "biblical person" articles, like Lot, Cain and Abel, the articles on Mary, and accomplished an Islamic context in their own spin-off articles like Lot in Islam, Mary in Islam, etc. etc. We have articles on biblical persons and biblical narratives in the Quran. His contributions in adding "Abrahamic" and other information should be reviewed given that they might pose issues with WP:CFORK and being redundant at the articles he's effecting and several already-existing articles.--ColonelHenry (talk) 22:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A non mutual punishment of any kind in this matter suggests you are more than involved; you are biased, which is the worst thing to be on ANI. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 02:46, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support a topic ban for Pass a Method. I see no reason to punish StAnselm who has been trying to maintain the articles. Binksternet (talk) 03:07, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • • @Binksternet: See my comment directly above yours. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 19:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Support a topic ban on Hebrew Bible articles for Pass a Method - this is further to comment and additional to the 1RR restriction on Pass a Method above, I haven't looked in depth at the other contribs outside Hebrew Bible subjects to judge whether further topic bans are called for, but have now looked at both sets of edits from 27 November and this week. Conclusion: it's evident that Pass a Method has a topic-ban level problem with Hebrew Bible articles. To come repeatedly to different articles on Genesis subjects and refusing discussion edit war the lead to "in the Quran and Genesis" falls simultaneously into all 3 of the WP:POV/WP:POINTY/WP:FRINGE areas. I cannot see a single edit from either the first run of attempts to put the Quran ahead of the Hebrew Bible starting 27 November which were forestalled by the earlier appearance at ANI, and the second re-run of the second run of attempts to put the Quran ahead of the Hebrew Bible this time. Pass a Method was warned the first time, redoing the same edits and edit-warring up to 3RR justifies a topic ban. I say "first" only in relation to ANI, the editor has been trying to insert the Quran ahead of Genesis in various articles and even dabs since at least as far back as 7 Feb 2013 Eve is the first woman created by God in the Quran, the Book of Genesis and Baha'i scriptures. Abraham.. in the Quran, the Book of Genesis and Baha'i scriptures. These additions are long term and persistent. When challenged Pass a Method edit wars up to the 3RR line, then goes away and comes back later or takes the "in the Quran and Genesis" formula to a different article. If the editor's views on Judaism and Christianity moderate to recognize the usual chronological sequence of history of religions (Judaism->Christianity->Islam) then this can be demonstrated on Talk pages before the topic ban on Hebrew Bible articles is lifted. Pass a Method simply needs to demonstrate an understanding that the Hebrew Bible stories are firstly Jewish and not firstly Islamic, but there are posts above here indicating quite clearly that Pass a Method refuses to acknowledge what in WP:RS sources is axiomatic. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:09, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah. If I had had time to write more, and the skill, my reasoning would have looked much like yours. Binksternet (talk) 03:58, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support mutual 1RR restriction per Dougweller. The objective is to quiet the dispute not to punish transgressors. Ignocrates (talk) 05:18, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Why "mutual"? If the objective is to quiet the dispute then a simple 1RR on Pass a Method as the editor adding POV controversial edits will suffice. There's no need to add a 1RR on editors reverting Pass a Method since if Pass a Method can't put edits such as in the Quran and [Genesis] edit straight back two times and three times there's nothing to revert. I see St Anselm and User:Editor2020 and before they left PiCo, History2007 and John Carter, and a few others, daily on my Watchlist reverting endless POV and fringe material edits from Bible articles. Being able to go up to 2RR or 3RR with the latest POV or fringe editor is essential to stop the articles deteriorating further. Most of these articles could actually be edit protected and frozen at 3 or 5 years ago when they were in better shape than today.

Closer? Note that Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive820#Editor_deleting_Islamic_content is still open so this RM ideally should close that off too. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Either do a mutual editing restriction or nothing at all. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 12:30, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Disclosure: PaM messaged me on my talk page, as was mentioned above. Anyway...I am not comfortable with a vote being held on ANI to enforce topic bans, interaction bans or whatnot. Why not go through a dual RfC/U for both users, hash it out there, and then turn it over to AN upon closing? It will take longer but it's more appropriate for drawn out discussions, ensures that all sides are heard and can make any resolutions afterward more definitive. MezzoMezzo (talk) 12:37, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - I'm leaning toward doing nothing at all at this point. Both parties to this dispute are veteran editors who should know better. Let them take the dispute to WP:DRN where they can find a way to work through their differences without being disagreeable. Ignocrates (talk) 16:09, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• Topic ban Pass a Method from religious topics. Those who've read my WP:RfC/U draft (mentioned a few times higher up) already know that I see Pass a Method as a very troubling editor who 99.9 % of the time can never edit neutrally, especially on religious topics. Halo Jerk1 (talk) 03:31, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
• And as for Pass a Method having fans, if so, he does not have many. In ictu oculi and others, feel free to help me shape the WP:RfC/U. Halo Jerk1 (talk) 03:48, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

@Halo Jerk: You are just as biased as all the other editors suggesting a non mutual restriction in this matter. --Bigpoliticsfan (talk) 11:36, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Support mutual 1RR restriction per Dougweller. Both are good editors! Both have strong convictions! The objective is to quiet the dispute not to punish transgressors. - Ret.Prof (talk) 15:22, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Dougweller - I don't really understand your 1RR proposal as it relates to the editor preventing controversial edits repeatedly being added, i.e. St Anselm. The edits you have linked seem to all of them show Pass a Method adding Quran-first comments and editors, recently St Anselm, but previously other WP Religion editors, reverting Pass a Method. What about other editors reverting either Pass a Method or similar to edits to religion articles? As you know someone intent on pushing a fringe or POV or WEIGHT problem edit rarely stops with 1 revert, they very often take it to 2RR or 3RR. Under your proposal will St Anselm still be able to revert other editors than Pass a Method? If not then who is going to? In ictu oculi (talk) 01:56, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not my proposal, but it would be a 1RR restriction between the two editors and not affect them reverting anyone else. Dougweller (talk) 05:45, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose As not being shown to have any likelihood of improving the project. The idea of "no reverts to each other" is weird as it does not allow for doing what Wikipedia states is the solution: require consensus for substantial changes to an article if anyone objects. Tell each to follow WP:CONSENSUS and avoid thousands of potential "solutions" which do not solve the issue as well as policy already provides. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:35, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Trainmastercrc (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been acting awkwardly in this edit, and the past ones, either he is acting abnormally, or was probably compromised, and apparently, Hes been using the S-word in his userpage, can an experienced editor check this out? Thanks, Dreth 02:03, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) - He does have the word "shit" repeated on his user page 4,147 times. Yeah, that's a little weird. But some people have a hard time on the holidays. - ^theWOLFchild 03:50, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have tagged their user page for deletion under criteria G3 (pure vandalism). Thanks, Ross HillTalk to me! 03:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have blocked the account indefinitely as being possibly compromised. only (talk) 12:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Only, I don't think that was necessary. Trainmastercrc has not made any poor edits to the mainspace, and his edits to his own userpage are not proof enough to believe his account is compromised. Consider unblocking, and reblock if he vandalises outside his userspace. Thanks, Ross HillTalk to me! 16:54, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I stand by the block; it's a protection block for the project. He has made these very erratic and out of character edits to his user page. By blocking him, it prevents him from making any erratic, out of character edits to the articles as well. We'll see what happens if/when he attempts to appeal the block, but I'd lean to the "better safe than sorry" side here. only (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have to agree with Ross. The edits have been confined to user space where people are given a little more latitude with what they add there (like I said, maybe he's just 'venting') This editor hasn't disrupted the project. Can you really block someone for something they might do? - ^theWOLFchild 21:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User:Only and User:Ross Hill, User: Thewolfchild. It would be better and suggest a compromise if this were changed to a temporary 1-week block, That way when Trainmastercrc's block expires, we can see what happens then. Dreth 23:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes...it's called prevention. From Wikipedia:Blocking policy: "A block for protection may be necessary in response to...an account appearing to have been compromised." This is an account that appears to be compromised. only (talk) 00:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I would rather take a chance that they make a few easily reversible edits, than keep them blocked for edits to their userpage that don't even contradict Wikipedia policy. Ross HillTalk to me! 01:19, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If the edits don't "contradict Wikipedia policy," why did you label them as vandalism and request deletion of his page? only (talk) 01:30, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In case the account was compromised and those edits were not theirs. Although in hindsight revdel is a better alternative. Ross HillTalk to me! 01:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Well, shit. Deference should go to only as the blocking admin, but if you disagree with an indef, you should be open to unblocking at the first request for one. Chevron deference at work in real life. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:41, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Good block we shouldn't take chances on compromised accounts. The usual unblocking routes are available in the event there's really some other explanation. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 21:37, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ultimate cosmic evil (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) committed a lot of page move vandalism in the last few minutes. The account is now blocked, but is there an easy way to revert these moves? I could certainly use a hand with it. only (talk) 03:08, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There are hundreds of reverts to undo; many of them went through 3 moves so it's not as simple as just hitting "revert." I can't do these right now; I'm signing off in the next few minutes. Sorry to leave people this mess, but I just simply can't do this right now. only (talk) 03:14, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The easiest way to do this is go through all his moves and Rollback them. The talk pages should be automatically re-moved. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 03:29, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For me it looks like, that every of his moves are now undone and there is nothing else to do. Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 03:43, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is something weird going on here. Before the spree of name edits the user did were seem to be completely legitimate and unrelated to the page move vandalism. This includes adding notability templates, proding an article, reverted blanking of a closed AFD, Templating an anon for content blanking etc.--174.93.163.194 (talk) 03:49, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe his/her account got compromised/hacked? Armbrust ^{The Homunculus} 03:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Probably just a case of someone building up edits to become autoconfirmed and not drawing any negative attention to itself before going on its spree. only (talk) 11:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fairly sure I and a couple of other admins and users have cleaned up everything done by that account, at least as far as the obvious page move vandalism. What a mess! Thank you everyone for being around this evening to call attention to it and help. Please let me or this thread know if anyone notices anything that hasn't been taken care of. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 04:07, 26 December 2013 (UTC

I wasted a while going through these untill I realised that you have all done them already. Never mind, thanks everyone for your prompt action. This is the kind of vandalism that with the best will in the world we should have absolutely no patience with. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Something seems wrong with this picture, especially the fact that the suspected operator/culprit is Ginsuloft. While I don't doubt the CU report, I do doubt whether this was good hand/bad hand socking or whether it was a family member who created that account and then went on a spree. Sportsguy17 (T • C) 15:15, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I find this edit by Ginsuloft to be kind of peculiar. I don't know why he would disable the bot like that... only (talk) 15:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wait! So it was Ginsuloft all along? Oh my, considering how he contributed to the encyclopedia. Dreth 16:12, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that is surprising. Thankfully his attempt to gain sysop tools was unsuccessful. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:20, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

We have seen admins go bonkers and the results can be very disruptive. That said, I've emailed Ginsuloft and am awaiting a reply, which may clear things up. Does Ginsuloft use a shared or public IP? Sportsguy17 (T • C) 20:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

And if it's a static IP, then what happens. Dreth 21:57, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It's impossible to tell with WP:GHBH accounts, because it could be a family member or a dynamic IP. Unless there are a lot of behavioural similarities, they should leave the suspected sockpuppeteer alone if they are making useful contributions. Dark Sun (talk) 08:43, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

A new, so far single purpose editor User2001 is making persistent and repeated major changes (mostly deletions) to the article Jook-sing, without Edit summaries or Talk page discussion, despite repeated requests to do so in my Edit summaries and on the user's Talk page. I have also posted on the article's talk page. No response.

We seem to be facing an insoluble communication problem which indicates possible competency problems.

Can an Admin please have a look? HiLo48 (talk) 05:09, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I support HiLo48 in his concern about this editor's actions. --Greenmaven (talk) 05:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As per Jack Greenmaven. Also note similar edits:

• User2001 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Writer1962 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Writer1999 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

In ictu oculi (talk) 05:52, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Temporarily blocked User2001 for 3RR violation. You may want to advise user in his talk page what and why. he can reply there if he wishes as the talk page is open. Should he continue edit warring, then there will be longer blocks forthcoming. -- Alexf^(talk) 13:39, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I note we still have absolutely no response from this editor. HiLo48 (talk) 04:11, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Now archived: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive820#Ethnic-motivated edit warring by anonymous users continues. 92.238.171.3 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)/195.89.201.254 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) still edit-wars to force Hungarian version of the town name upper in the infobox. He has been told on both talk pages what the current practice is, and why he was reverted, but does not seem to internalize it. 195.89.201.254 was blocked for two weeks (92 was not), but immediately resumed the same behavior after it expired. No such user (talk) 07:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is silence a consent for revert-warring, or what?
For the start, I'll issue a WP:ARBMAC warning ({{subst:uw-sanctions|topic=b}}), and maybe AE will be more willing to refer to the matter. No such user (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It is really inspiring to raise an issue here and then continue talking to myself. It would be more encouraging that at least someone blocks me per WP:BOOMERANG; at least, that would mean that someone is paying attention.

Anyway, more from the editor in question:

• "which is absolutely disgusting racism, prejudiced and abhorrent language. Anyone talking so openly racist on wikipedia should surely be banned from contributing on here" [48]
• "We see openly anti-Hungarian attitudes here, it is absolutely appalling that such individuals are trying to dominate here." [49]

To make the circus complete, he is then being reverted by a sock of Bonaparte [50] (or of someone similar), and my SPI request sits idle for 6 hours [51]

Can someone apply a cluebat... PLEASE??? No such user (talk) 13:23, 31 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

• Spreadsol (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

This user has repeatedly added copyvios (Good Ol' Freda, Down Terrace, I'm Still Here (film), Pioneer (Film), possibly Milo (film), Chawz, [52] from [53], [54] from [55], etc.). They claim to work for the distributor responsible for the films, in which case they are abusing Wikipedia as a marketing medium. The user is completely non-communicative, with zero user talk edits in four years. MER-C 08:32, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indefinite block until they start discussions. There is also a WP:COI. See Talk:Grand Piano (film) where the editor writes "I work for Magnet Releasing and this is not a copyright infringement as it is our synopsis. I cited ComingSoon as well." Dougweller (talk) 09:21, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

If anyone wants to help clean up the copyvio text it would be appreciated. I can delete any articles that need it or rev/del old edits to suppress the copyvio. Advice on the images would be useful also. Dougweller (talk) 18:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have gone through the image uploads, everything is now chill in that regard. -- Diannaa (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've cleared out the remaining text copyvios. MER-C 05:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks everyone! Dougweller (talk) 06:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

User Vahram Mekhitaryan repeatedly added wrong, not related links in articles, and starting edit wars. Please take some action against it. That user repeatedly adding original research statement ([56]), which has been removed per discussion at talk page, but he readding it again. Adding non related links ([57], [58], [59]). Besides, reverting edits with uncertain/wrong explainations in edit summary. He was previosly blocked 3 times for edit war in same article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Δαβίδ (talk • contribs) 17:13, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) What discussion on the talk page? There's nothing there but a list of WikiProjects (I even checked the history and found nothing). Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 18:52, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

[60], [61] that statement has been removed, but that user added it again and again.--Δαβίδ (talk) 08:53, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Related: Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard#Edits against WP:LOCALCON at German acupuncture trials --Guy Macon (talk) 20:04, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is a bit of a BLP issue going on here, new editor calling various academics muslim extremists (they are not BTW). He has added the content three times now, I have posted to his talk page twice and the article talk page also, can an admin give him a poke please? Darkness Shines (talk) 20:28, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(ec)Further to this, there are source misrepresentation, "Many newspapers and inquiry commission pointed this as targeted attack on Hindu Pilgrims returning from Aayodha" is entirely wrong, only one commission has said the attack on the train was pre planned. Darkness Shines (talk) 20:36, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Someone is trying to remove the properly cited content to make the text one sided. Every sentence added is cited and there are court verdicts which are important issue for this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dprabin (talk • contribs) 20:34, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You haven't addressed the points above. This edit:"the 2002 Gujarat violence, also termed as the Gujarat pogrom by the muslim extremists<ref>[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ppFuAAAAMAAJ Gujarat Pogrom-2002, Krishna Gopal, Jaunpuri Shiksha Mission, 2006]</ref><ref>[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p5s8hooZfekC Pogrom in Gujarat: Hindu Nationalism and Anti-Muslim Violence in India, Parvis Ghassem-Fachandi, Princeton University Press, 2012]</ref><ref>[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M0ZuAAAAMAAJ The Gujarat pogrom: compilation of various reports, Indian Social Institute, 2002]</ref> " - where precisely do you get "muslim extremists" from? Who actually calls them that? Dougweller (talk) 21:25, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Related: Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard#Santa Claus. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I removed the unsourced claim (that Iran is the world's oldest country) from List of top international rankings by country. However, the ip user, 99.244.158.43, keeps reverting my edit by claiming the linked article History of Iran as a citation. There is no claim on that page that Iran is the world's oldest country. There is only a statement that Iran is one of the world's oldest civilizations. However, the ip user either doesn't understand the difference or just doesn't care. In anycase, they keep adding back in the unsourced claim. I've given the user 4 warnings already, but they've ignored it. Transcendence (talk) 09:31, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) I would normally suggest WP:3, but it appears that the content the IP is adding is clearly wrong (and the angry edit summaries aren't helping matters either). However, s/he hasn't edited anywhere since Dougweller's final warning, so let's just see what happens. Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 09:33, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My experience with sockpuppeting POV-pushers has been pleasantly minimal, so I'm hoping those with more experience with wikiconflicts can help me out here.

Middle Ages is a vital article, and several fantastic contributors (particularly Ealdgyth) made it a Featured article and have worked hard to maintain its quality. Recently, Sumatro and JanHusCz have been tag-teaming there to promote Bulgaria's importance, deteriorating the article's quality and engaging it edit wars with several other editors. Ealdgyth brought the situation to my attention, opining "This is the sort of crap that drives good content editors away." So I did a little research, and here's what I found.

In May of this year, Ceco31 was permanently topic-banned from anything relating to Bulgaria, and was blocked from all edits (account creation blocked) for 3 months. (See previous.) His last edits were to editwar on Bulgarians. He did not return under that username when his 3-month block was lifted, but Sumatro showed up in August instead, immediately using rather complex Wikisyntax and engaging in an editwar right off the bat at Bulgarians. It sure looks like a topic-ban-evading sock to me. Sumatro edited nothing but the Bulgarians article all month, then in September switched to Nina Dobrev, a model, where he's only interested in the "Bulgarian nationality and citizenship" aspects. He editwarred there, and edited nothing but that one article for months. Meanwhile, JanHusCz also showed up on Wikipedia in September, and after the 4 days and 12 edits it takes to get auto-confirmed, he immediately set about at Nina Dobrev making the same sort of changes as Sumatro, using wikisyntax and citing Wikipedia policy like a pro. Both quit Nina in early December and set on Middle Ages together, edit warring to emphasize Bulgaria there. Despite agreeing completely, and reverting to each other's versions, they never once use each other's talk page or really reply to each other on article talk pages. I have no doubt that both Sumatro and JanHusCz are sockpuppets (or at least meatpuppets) of the topic-banned Ceco31.

JanHusCz has been blocked for 24 hours for a 3RR violation, but I think permanently blocking all three accounts for evading a topic ban would be appropriate. I'm not directly involved with any of these users or articles, and my only interest is in protecting vital, featured articles in general. Is it okay for me to simply block the accounts? Are there any hoops I need to jump through first? Thanks for any assistance. – Quadell ^(talk) 15:41, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) Shouldn't a request for checkuser be opened first to determine whether they are the same editor, or could you or another admin simply block these accounts because they are duck accounts? Epicgenius (talk) 15:47, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This looks duck-worthy to me, but I have little experience with this. Also, I just saw that Only opened a (partial) sockpuppet investigation at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Sumatro, but that doesn't mention Ceco31 or the topic ban. – Quadell ^(talk) 15:53, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know anything about Ceco31 or the topic ban, so please feel free to make additions to /move my sockpuppet investigation request. I was tempted to pull the trigger on a duck block, but leaned towards the SPI for the moment. Any other admin is more than welcome to implement longer blocks if they desire; I have no objection to that. only (talk) 16:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, best I guess if we move discussion over there. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 19:50, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see a rather racist "advertisement" on the page People's_Liberation_Army (here is a screenshot). Is this intended, an error, or has something got hacked on wikipedia? - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 15:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also, here is the talk page that the link at the bottom of the ad links to: https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Advertising_on_Wikipedia - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 15:52, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Weird, it's in the html page source, but can't be edited from within the article. Photo is here Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:00, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

My guess is that one of the templates that is being used in the page has been vandalized. Finding which one may be a little challenging. - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 16:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be vandalism of the {{Infobox Chinese}} template. I used only that template, with no parameters filled in, at User:Quadell/draft, and the ad shows up. – Quadell ^(talk) 16:06, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Found and reverted at {{Infobox Chinese/Footer}} --Jnorton7558 (talk) 16:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work. Was that a coordinated attack by a political group, or just a hoax? If it was the former, the problem will surely reappear. – Quadell ^(talk) 16:12, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Thanks. :) May be drop a notice at https://test.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk:Advertising_on_Wikipedia ? And I agree with Quadell. - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 16:14, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Left a note there, though who knows if people will read it or not. The other problem is it took purging the pages to clear the "ad" off of it and I probably missed quite a few, if not most. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 16:22, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, here is the backlink for the template: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Infobox_Chinese. Let's look through the pages in the list and purge them. I'll do my bit. - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 16:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Is the test.wikipedia.org site linked in these "adverts" which are still showing up actually owned by wikipedia or is it just some troll? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.96.42.141 (talk) 16:36, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Test Wikipedia is where the developers test new things before doing a mass deployment, I think at least, and is owned and operated by the Foundation --Jnorton7558 (talk) 16:59, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have blacklisted the page that they keep linking to, in hopes that it will start to calm this down, but we'll see. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:03, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I have also created abuse filter 600 which should detect and block such edits, a little more generically. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 17:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! It seems almost all the pages using the template (several thousands it seemed) have been purged. Just wondering: Was all of it done manually or is there is a bot/script at the disposal of the admins that helped with that? - Subh83 (talk | contribs) 17:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Modifying a template actually queues a purge on all the pages, but they get stuffed into the job queue. Depending on traffic, it could take a long time before those purges actually happen. If the job queue isn't that long, though, it happens quickly. "action=purge" just forces it to happen immediately. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 18:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Here's another one, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_revolution 96.232.85.20 (talk) 18:09, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone who has more knowledge of Wikipedia policies and editing ability than I do look at User:Masroor Khan0 the page seems to provide a lot of information about this editor that seems like a violation of self promotion. Along with the articles Sant Kabir Nagar district and Bakhira Sanctuary. Thank you. VViking_TalkEdits 16:33, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Welcomed (and advised) the new editor. Miniapolis 18:49, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Undid many of thier edits. CombatWombat42 (talk) 20:16, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Narrow Feint (talk · contribs) is a single-purpose editor whose sole contribution on Wikipedia is to enforce a particular address format on articles containing British addresses. I have discussed it with him on his talk page and a number of wider discussions have been held about the practice, most recently this one, but these discussions have always centred on the various merits of different formats, rather than the merits of mass enforcement of a particular format. While a small majority were in favour of the format Narrow Feint is enforcing, there has never been a consensus to make mass changes to that format. Narrow Feint has decided that the partial support for his preferred format constitutes a right to change all British addresses to that format. I do not believe such mass changes are constructive, and they are not supported by any guideline that I can find.

It is important to add that Narrow Feint has always been civil, did not continue editing while discussions were being held, and has always denied a nationalist bias and claims not to deliberately concentrate on English addresses. But nevertheless, 100% of his mainspace edits are to remove "UK" from English addresses, even allowing "UK" to remain on Scottish addresses such as in this edit [86].

I myself use various address formats for British addresses, including the one Narrow Feint prefers, and I am not concerned here about which format different people may favour; I simply object to mass enforcement of a particular format at the expense of others when there is no policy on Wikipedia to support it. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:44, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

(Non-administrator comment) This issue seems more suitable for WP:DRN. Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 19:08, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Could you explain why? As I say, this is specifically not about the merits of the various formats, it is about whether or not we are happy with mass changes from one to another. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:20, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Explain why? Sure, because it simply seems like a friendly disagreement (which is more than can be said for issues that are usually brought to this board). Have a good day. :) Erpert ^{WHAT DO YOU WANT???} 19:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, yes, I suppose it is more civil than most. But it's been dragging on for a long time and I would like some concrete guidance on it, something I haven't found anywhere else. Cheers, Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:26, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Should the edits all be reverted? It seems that though this user is civil, their edits are not constructive. Epicgenius (talk) 19:57, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I would agree. An editor making such mass changes without consensus is clearly being disruptive regardless of whether they stop specific instances when called on it. (Consider if this had been an ENGVAR, or date format or BC/BCE issue.) I'm not an admin but frankly the only thing stopping me calling for a block or topic ban is the fact that they perhaps haven't received sufficient warning yet. Discussion should of course using some form of WP:Dispute resolution if necessary but that doesn't negate the disruption cause by the editor concerned. Ultimately if they can't achieve consensus for any specific usage which wouldn't exactly be surprising for something like this, then they will need to just let it be, regardless of their personal dislike for whatever format. Nil Einne (talk) 04:48, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]