Moved to Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/RfC: Wikimedia referrer policy

 – Hi everyone. Because this discussion has become so lengthy (a good 226,000+ bytes), I've moved it to a subpage of the village pump to make the village pump a little more accessible. I apologize if any confusion was caused by this. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 03:55, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

 Relisted I have relisted the discussion, i.e. gave the discussion additional 30 days. Therefore, more participants would be welcome to comment there during the extended time. --George Ho (talk) 01:41, 30 June 2017 (UTC); added icon, 01:45, 30 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

For an update, the discussion was closed and then summarized. --George Ho (talk) 21:36, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No consensus. Opinions are almost evenly split between keeping Wikibooks and removing it from the results. Some people also suggested moving it to the bottom of the search results if we keep it. Kaldari (talk) 20:20, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Apparently, the previous RfC was inconclusive on this point (or at least didn't have enough participants to establish a convincing consensus).[1] Instead of arguing about it, let's just see if there is consensus one way or the other and settle the matter. Should Wikibooks pages be included as part of the sister project results in Wikipedia search results? (See screenshot for an example.) Kaldari (talk) 21:57, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose As the previous RfC determined, the content in Wikibooks isn't worthy of being linked here. The sole voice to support inclusion only hoped that seeing the results in Wikibooks would draw drive-by editors away from dumping their useless content at en-wp. Chris Troutman (talk) 07:49, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Just noting that if Wikibooks is included I think it should be placed last. Users are trained to expect content in order of relevance, and in the Brazil example on the right, when they get to "World Stamp Catalogue" in the list of cross-project results, they are going to tune out, in spite of the fact that the Wikivoyage result lower down is very relevant to their search. Of the wikis included in cross-wiki search, Wikibooks content is probably least likely to be relevant, so it should go last. — This, that and the other (talk) 04:04, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Question, This, that and the other: do you want Wikibooks included in or excluded from the search results? --George Ho (talk) 14:44, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't feel strongly either way. — This, that and the other (talk) 02:20, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Don't feel strongly either way, but favour inclusion over exclusion. Positioning might be a good thing to adapt, per TTO. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:36, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Weak oppose - There are other ways to cross-communicate and cross-contribute. However, saying that Wikibooks is "least likely to be relevant" implies that readers would not want to go to Wikibooks while using their own search terms. I like the "positioning" idea, but that depends on what the community wants and how the community would organize the projects in search results. Does the community want the results in this order: Wiktionary, Wikivoyage, Wikisource, and Wikiquote? (Note that I excluded Wikibooks.) Or does the community want the results organized in relevance order, like this: Brazil, Brazil, Brazil, Brazil, and World Stamp Catalogue?

  Meanwhile, why including Wikibooks if there's either apathy or not much enthusiasm toward the project Wikibooks? I appreciate the developers' work on improving the Foundation's search engine. However, if no one cares for Wikibooks, and almost no one is willing to complete the incomplete books, then don't include Wikibooks. There's no sense on including Wikibooks if the community doesn't care for it. Also, no sense on including it in contrast to the previous RfC discussion. Unless I see compassion and interest toward Wikibooks, which would prompt me into favoring the inclusion, I won't change my vote. George Ho (talk) 19:49, 28 June 2017 (UTC); changed vote, so see my new comment below. --George Ho (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  – The below "support" votes say limit the query or put Wikibooks to last. If that's the case, then maybe excluding the results from Wikibooks would be a safest bet until I see a newer, fresher enthusiasm toward Wikibooks. Including Wikibooks for the sake of including it, even when limited, is not a good adequate reason to support the inclusion, especially when (as said above) the enthusiasm toward Wikibooks is (nearly) absent. Wikivoyage was limited to just title matches, but the consensus allows the inclusion of Wikivoyage for various reasons, like free travel advertising and driving travel-guide editing out of Wikipedia. I don't see a case here, especially since the consensus seems rarely interested in the project. --George Ho (talk) 01:19, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Weak oppose. Content is lacking; there are just 66 complete (featured) books, and incomplete books don't seem particularly useful to readers wanting to learn a topic. Wikibooks is also just not all that important, judging by the lack of interest in this RfC. Jc86035 (talk) Use {{re|Jc86035}}
  to reply to me 17:13, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support inclusion of Wikibooks in search results, but make it last, or organize results by relevance to search term. It could be incredibly helpful if Wikibooks has an entire textbook on a subject. I personally use the cookbook, and find that is very helpful when I remember to use it rather than a general internet search. Wikibooks becomes more useful when it is more visible, and I don't see the sense in hiding it from our readers and editors. The Simple English Wikipedia should be included, too. Jack N. Stock (talk) 17:40, 3 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - maybe make it so that Wikibooks is displayed only if the search string is matched in the page title. Wikibooks results tend to be mostly almost wholly irrelevant tangential mentions of the search string somewhere deep in a book page. Daß Wölf 19:16, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How would that help? E-textbooks are titled slightly differently. Type either "ESL" or "English as a second or foreign language" or "English", and you'll see partial matches in Wikibooks. Also, the titling varies, depending on b:Wikibooks:Naming policy. If you type in b:English, it redirects to "Subject:English language". Pinging Chris, This, that and the other, TheDJ, Jc86035, and Jack about this suggestion. --George Ho (talk) 19:43, 6 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Daß Wölf for response. Also, how would title matching help improve "chalupa" search results and include b:Cookbook:Chalupa? --George Ho (talk) 02:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it was an idea. The Wikibooks search engine is certainly lagging behind our other projects -- when I search for "chalupa" even on Wikibooks, the only result is b:False Friends of the Slavist/Russian-Polish. Daß Wölf 23:25, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support, but some tweaking might be necessary to avoid pointing to books that are only tangentially related to the search query. --Yair rand (talk) 21:24, 9 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support goal of this project from the start..Jimmy Wales: The birth of Wikipedia . --Moxy (talk) 01:35, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Jimbo Wales mentioned Wikibooks at the very end of the video, Moxy. It's been 14 years since its creation. Some books are completed, most of them Featured Books. By the way, I typed "risotto", and it doesn't include b:Cookbook:Risotto. --George Ho (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So your suggesting we improve the search engine.....they are doing just that. Best to try to improve what we have over pusing it under the rug. We need to put our efforts in to problem solving. Your examples are a great starting point.--Moxy (talk) 02:11, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

b:Cookbook:Risotto could be a very helpful search result. Jack N. Stock (talk) 02:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@George Ho: this seemed rather strange to me. When looking into it, I realized you cannot even find that cookbook on en.wikibooks itself. I think I have found the cause of that in phab:T170473 —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:37, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Umm, TheDJ... you can configure advanced search, select whichever namespace(s) you want to search through, and... voila. :D --George Ho (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but that's not how it's supposed to work. The default setting should normally search all content, not just main space. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 22:31, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Comment regarding purpose of this project from the beginning: Wikipedia actually came from Larry Sanger, the man who did most of the heavy lifting. We should ask Larry Sanger, the man who actually created Wikipedia. QuackGuru (talk) 01:47, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Hmm... At first QuackGuru, I thought the source was misleading because it doesn't mention Wikibooks and because it's about including the project in the search results. But then... I used Ctrl+F, typed "search", and found what it said: "More users meant more articles, and more articles meant more search engine results, which brought in even more users. It was a snowball effect that would send Wikipedia traffic – and content volume – into the stratosphere." A nifty quote, admittedly. Still, I wonder how it helps to persuade me into supporting the inclusion of Wikibooks. We already have live cross-wiki search results and included Wikiquote, Wiktionary, Wikivoyage, and Wikisource. --George Ho (talk) 02:04, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  What is the quality of Wikibooks? What does the WMF say about adding it to the search results? What did QuackGuru mean? Others can decide for us? QuackGuru (talk) 02:16, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  Well... I was thinking the third question, QuackGuru. I could answer other questions if I can. Sorry about the previous response; I was either confused or unsure whether your comment was an attempted humor. My apologies if you feel offended. George Ho (talk) 02:25, 11 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

• Support I've found Wikibooks to be helpful when learning programming languages, and think it's a valuable thing to link to as a side matter. No doubt the search results need some refining, but that can happen over time. Legoktm (talk) 01:23, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose -- aren't Wikibooks collections of Wikipedia articles to begin with? If so, there's no need. K.e.coffman (talk) 04:10, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @K.e.coffman: No, you're thinking of Wikipedia Books. Wikibooks hosts original free content textbooks. Kaldari (talk) 20:42, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • @K.e.coffman: Some or many pages were imported from Wikipedia or Wikiversity, like b:Cookbook:Zippuli from Zippuli. --George Ho (talk) 23:52, 12 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    • • It should be noted that content has gone in both directions, where I have personally moved Wikibook content to Wikipedia to start new articles here.... usually from misguided folks who simply didn't know where to put the content. Also, Wikiversity started on Wikibooks and was hosted on en.wikibooks for nearly five years before moving onto its own server. en.wikibooks also used to be multi-lingual and hosted every language version of Wikibooks at one point. Content has been moved to Commons, Meta, and even onto Wikia servers at various points of time... for better or worse. That from time to time content is also started on Wikipedia and gets moved to Wikibooks is more of a style issue and depends on the content, but Wikipedia is usually not the seed from which books are created. --Robert Horning (talk) 02:00, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment--@Fram, Dlohcierekim, Beetstra, and WhatamIdoing:--Pinging participants of the prev. discussion.Please share your views on the regard.Thanks!Winged Blades ^Godric 10:54, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - As a long time admin at Wikibooks and somebody who can be asserted as a champion of the project, I am utterly dismayed at the lack of understanding of what the project even is based on many of the above comments. I might add that among the various users of Wikipedia that are clueless about what Wikibooks is about includes Jimmy Wales himself, even though he supported its creation based upon a policy discussion here on the Village Pump. The featured books would indeed be valuable to link in terms of search results, and as for the incomplete books.... those can and ought to be treated as if they are stubs no different or as complete as stub articles here on Wikipedia. On the other hand, I'd say that the skills necessary to flesh out and finish a book on Wikibooks are far more difficult than it is to flesh out a Wikipedia article (having done both... I can say this with experience). Particularly for featured books, they should definitely be linked in appropriate Wikipedia articles (and usually are I might add). That the project could use some loving from its bigger sister on Wikipedia is no doubt, but I'd also invite those who might not know about Wikibooks to any great extent to simply go over the the project and check it out... and help out if possible. It would be nice for the project to have a search engine display some results potentially to encourage more readers, but frankly I'm personally neutral either way. --Robert Horning (talk) 01:53, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just as a personal word, know that there are many people supporting the sister projects (I witness this at each event I attend). Unfortunately there seems to be a large contingent of (vocal) Wikipedians, who are against anything that isn't directly benefitting Wikipedia itself. Do not let your enthusiasm be withered by the sour grapes of Wikipedia. You can counter with the fact that Wikipedia sucks because in 17 years they only managed to write 5000 featured article, if that makes you feel better :) P.S. I'm anti- one of the sister projects myself, but that doesn't mean i don't respect the energy people put into it. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 15:28, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose--Per above.No particular benefits.A hodge-podge project.Winged Blades ^Godric 10:25, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
• Support per Robert Horning. Wikibooks is not that large it won't pollute Wikipedia searches. It will help a sister project. It will help users find free open source content the purpose of Wiki. -- GreenC 15:45, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-closure discussion

Somehow, the task to suppress Wikibooks from search results is declined. Then a task to sort search results from sister projects is made. I don't know why "no consensus" should be interpreted as leaving the results as is. George Ho (talk) 23:37, 26 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Kaldari and DTankersley in case that they rather discuss at here than at Phabricator. --George Ho (talk) 00:11, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@George Ho: I'm not involved in that decision. I was just trying to get some clarity on what the community's opinion was on the matter. Kaldari (talk) 00:20, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Kaldari. Would "no consensus" mean defaulting to excluding the results per the other discussion? --George Ho (talk) 00:24, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@George Ho and Kaldari:--In absence of a concensus, status-quo shall prevail which shall be the exclusion of search results(as consequent of the prev. discussion).Winged Blades ^Godric 12:31, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Until I get a response from Deb soon (well, not too soon), I thought about taking this to the admins' noticeboard. Thoughts, Godric and Kaldari? --George Ho (talk) 13:59, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Let's wait for two/three days.Anyway, AN doesn't seem to be the apt place!Winged Blades ^Godric 14:02, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Alternatively, Godric, I thought about re-proposal to exclude it. However, I worry that I might rephrase the same question. --George Ho (talk) 14:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The community has wanted sister projects to be included in the search results since at least 2009—and has implemented it successfully on various wikis without censoring the projects that are displayed. The idea of this feature is that showing additional search results across projects will not only increase visibility into those other sister projects, but it could also increase discovery into more articles of interest and maybe even encourage additional contributions.

I made the decision to keep Wikibooks in the sister projects snippets on enwiki because (based on the two RfC's that have dealt with this issue) there was no consensus for either removing or keeping the project in the search results, as Kaldari pointed out when the second RfC was closed. However, in that closing statement, there is a recommendation to have Wikibooks displayed at the bottom of the sister project snippets, which I agreed with and created (T171803) to start that work effort and declined (T168697). DTankersley (WMF) (talk) 16:46, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation, Deb. When is the best time to propose to exclude Wikibooks? --George Ho (talk) 19:54, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I still think declining the task to suppress the results is a disregard to the "no consensus" to include Wikibooks, and creating a task to adjust the Wikibooks results as a compromise between both sides is an attempt to change the community's mind without further discussion. Isn't this wrong? George Ho (talk) 21:52, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion: Letting things fade away is often helpful. Wait a couple of months by which time people will have a much better feeling for what is going on and what should happen. There is no need for this much discussion at this stage. Johnuniq (talk) 22:14, 27 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello everyone 🙋🏻, I’d like to request some amendments to WP:SEEALSO. I’ve created a plethora of articles and while creating them I tend to follow this policy to the letter, however I do notice that other editors simply ignore this and immediately start adding links already in the article.

Sent from my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL with Microsoft Windows 10 Mobile 📱.

Background

The articles I’ve created and / or greatly expanded always link appropriately upon publishing/expansion, I tend to use templates like “Main” and inline “Seealso” to make sure that interested readers know where to find related articles. This however doesn’t stop other editors from still (re-)adding them into the “See also” section, I’ve seen this not only on “my” articles (as in the ones I’ve created, don’t worry I'm not asserting ownership, it’s just a manner of speaking), but on countless of other articles that I either read or just make minor edits to, for example I’m reading an article about let's say German history and Herr Bismarck is mentioned several times and even appears in a “Main” template above some users will still add him into the “See also” section, now I’m an inclusionist and I really hate to revert edits that aren’t maleficent in nature, but I know of several “dedicated” (read: Over-active) editors who go out of their way to find every break of WP:SEEALSO, and remove the links. Now my proposals below will not only save those people countless of hours in what can basically be summed up as “useless edits for the sake of following WikiPolicy”, but I believe will greatly benefit the readers (you know? The people we all do this for).

" but I know of several “dedicated” (read: Over-active) editors who go out of their way to find every break of WP:SEEALSO, and remove the links." What a lot of garbage. Did you make your account yesterday just to enlighten everyone as to how properly using a see also section is inferior to having every link from an article repeated? Primergrey (talk) 16:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My proposals

I'll get straight to the point, abolish the guideline that states that a repetition of links is bad 🙅🏻, especially on larger articles though I personally don't plan on ever adding these links if this proposal would go through we have to think of how some readers read Wikipedia, I personally when I have the time prefer to read full articles 🤓, heck I even click on links or add some references through Bing News if I find “Citation Needed” 🔎📔, reckon that most of y’all do something similar, but I would guess that since the majority of the readers never edit that they would probably only look for the things and sections they’re interested in (at that moment), maybe someone only needs to read the end of the article and never bothers to go through the rest but they’re still interested in related subjects, what then? Well under WP:SEEALSO nothing, the assumption is that everyone reads full articles.

In my current editing style I tend to (re-)add links from earlier in the article if it’s for the first time in a large section again, imagine that an article on sulfuric acids has a link 🔗 to let's say base, but the article itself is 90 kb’s long, abs it gets mentioned again as an important comparison very late in the article, not linking would be a major disservice to readers, and from most people I know that only read and never edit Wikipedia, many don’t even know that there are navigation templates 🗒 at the bottom, let alone categories. In fact from the people I’ve asked (NOT A SCIENTIFIC SAMPLE, THIS IS WP:OR BUT I’LL CITE FOR REFERENCE AS NO ACTUAL STATISTICS CAN BE GATHERED AT PRESENCE) they tend to not read further than the “See also” section, sure we should still be able to differentiate when a navigation template suffices, and wen the “See also” section is needed (in fact I started my first “over-active” account purely to make a navigational template).

I propose therefore that links MAY be repeated (especially in larger articles, which for me as a mobile editor are hard to navigate through as is) if relevancy is either direct to the subject, or is extremely comparable / antonomic to the subject. I mostly read and edit Wikipedia on a mobile device (my Microsoft Lumia 950 XL) and in order to even be able to see a template at the bottom (LET ALONE EDIT ONE) I am forced to click on “Desktop”, I don’t think (read: Speculation) that most readers would do this to look for related subjects. So far WP:SEEALSO is a bane on the mobile reading experience, and as none of Wikipedia’s developers seem to have any interest in improving either the mobile reading or editing experience changing this one policy would probably be easier and best for the readers.

--Nayman30 (talk) 11:35, 14 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No. Things are bad enough as they are, with the prohibition that links that appear in the article should not appear as a see also. Removing the prohibition would create a list magnet which will soon grow out of hand, the see also is for links that are tangentially related to the article, any link that is important enough to be indispensible tothe article should be fully integrated into the article.--KTo288 (talk) 18:46, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't use characters like 🙋📱🙅🤓🔎📔🔗🗒 - they show as little rectangles. Also, don't use curly quotes “”‘’ they are against WP:QUOTEMARKS. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:27, 24 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I propose that, in the case of abandoned drafts and AFC submissions that would otherwise be subject to criterion G11 of the speedy deletion criteria and show promise of possibly becoming a full-fledged article, be instead moved to draftspace. I am aware of the refund policy, but it's better to not delete the page in the first place, because other people would more easily see the content and contribute if the page was not deleted. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 07:38, 15 July 2017 (UTC) *facepalm* I confused G11 and G13, and I also retract my proposal. This was poorly thought-out Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 08:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is wishful thinking. I'd be very surprised if more than 0.1% of such drafts would get someone willing to clean it up. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:29, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind that a number of G11 articles are copyright violations which frequently aren't caught at the time of G11-tagging. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:30, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't this the whole purpose of draftspace though? To hold pages that have potential to be articles, while getting rid of copyvios and other obvious garbage on the spot? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 10:37, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, the scope of draft is unfinished articles and these which need review. Spam and copyvios don't belong there. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:15, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Anything which won't eventually become an article good enough to survive our deletion process doesn't belong in the draftspace. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:31, 15 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, when spam and copyvios are made in draftspace, they get deleted before they can make it into mainspace. They are vetted in draftspace. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 02:48, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They aren't "vetted", someone has to vet them. That's the point - someone has to do all the vetting work. That manpower does not appear out of nowhere and your proposal means an even greater need for manpower.

There are lots of proposals that this or that class of pages should be cleaned up instead of being deleted. Such proposals almost always ignore that someone has to do the clean up work, that the proposal means more clean up work than there already is and offer no suggestion as to where this manpower can come from. Which is a real issue because a lot of processes here are backlogged including copyvio cleanup. This seems like yet another proposal in this pattern. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 09:20, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the thing is it's not very hard to give a page the once-over and move it to a draftspace page, as opposed to an admin deleting it after being speedy-tagged. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 00:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

About the only area where there is no shortage of manpower is in the creation of pages which require cleanup. Especially now that the school summer hols have started (in England anyway), they have more time on their hands to write about the garage band that their mates are starting. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:37, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The proposal is based on the false premise that deleting admins are unthinking bots who are too unintelligent to recognize an article with potential. How about producing an example of a problem before proposing a solution? Johnuniq (talk) 04:28, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The policy defaults to (soft) deletion. I'm aware that admins know better, but I'm trying to change policy itself. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 05:02, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How about producing an example of a problem before proposing a solution? Johnuniq (talk) 05:25, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I already did propose the problem; that drafts deleted by G13 cannot be seen and improved by the average editor, and finding examples is impossible because of the problem. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 06:43, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That sounds like a hypothetical problem. Can you point to a discussion showing that someone saw a page before deletion and believed that the page should be kept as an article? Johnuniq (talk) 07:54, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this happened a few hours ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Draft:Brendan_Kelly_(politician)&oldid=790775496 . I know an admin probably wouldn't delete it, given its state, but it shouldn't be in the policy to speedy it at all. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 08:14, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Whoa, slow down, it sounds like you're suggesting that admins are capable of higher thought, that can't be right. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Category declaration, [[Category:Some-topic templates]], can placed in template or in its doc. They are both widely used, and the guideline or help page have no opinion about which way is preferred, until this week User:Redrose64 says declaration in doc is preferred.

Pros for declaring in template:

1. Conceptually more direct. The template is categorized because its source contains the category declaration. Not because it contains a doc page which contains the category declaration.
2. Consistent with the way main articles are categorized.
3. The only way for pages without a doc page.

Pros for declaring in doc:

1. Does not trigger re-render for pages transcluding the template.
2. Separation of content edit and category edit. Protected templates can be re-categorized freely.

Golopotw (talk) 05:35, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not put the whole of the blame on me. My edit was a direct reaction to this edit by Golopotw (talk · contribs), which was shortly followed by this edit by the same person, which I amended similarly. Please note that neither Help:Category nor Help:Template are policy pages.

Yes, declaring in template is consistent with the way main articles are categorized - but articles don't have doc pages, so for articles this is the only way available. One thing that you have not mentioned is that templates are often protected, their doc pages rarely are. The advice to place the cat on the doc page is consistent with several other pages, such as: Template:Documentation#Best practice; Template:Documentation/preload (you need to view the page source for this one); Wikipedia:Template documentation#Categories and interwiki links; and indeed with Help:Template#Documentation. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 09:06, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I've been aware, declaring in doc (when a doc page exists) has been recommended practice for a decade or so. The "pros for declaring in doc" you describe are significant and measurable, while the "pros for declaring in template" are minor and in no way outweigh them. Anomie⚔ 12:38, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The advantages of "declaring in doc" does not apply to low traffic templates, that is, most of the templates. Golopotw (talk) 23:25, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think anyone is saying that a doc page must be created if all it is going to contain is a category. However, obviously if a template is useful it should have a doc page, even if minimal. In that case, categories belong there. Johnuniq (talk) 01:51, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If a template has a doc subpage, place categoories there - thesde categories are more a part of the template's documentation than of the template itself. If the template doesn't have a doc subpage, don't create it just for the category. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 05:18, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions are needed on the following matter: Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#RfC: Red links in infoboxes. A WP:Permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 09:43, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. You are invited to comment on this RfC, which seeks to reform certain aspects of Wikipedia's dispute resolution processes. Biblio (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Watchers of this page may be interested in WT:CSD#Expand G13 to cover ALL old drafts. --Izno (talk) 12:10, 25 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

FYI

 – Pointer to relevant discussion elsewhere.

Please see Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#Resolving conflicts between (and within) PERFNAV, FILMNAV, and PERFCAT, which proposes mutually conforming clarification to these guidelines, in a centralized discussion.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:40, 28 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please come participate: Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2017 July 27#Template:Recent death Aboriginal Aus. Thank you. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 05:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

There is an open-ended RfC on the purpose of the draftspace, including the possibility of dumping the draftspace altogether: Wikipedia talk:Drafts#RfC: on the proper use of the draftspace. Participation is very welcome. -- Taku (talk) 03:53, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Speedy-closed. No clear proposal, a previous RFC had been closed hours earlier, and severe objections from participants. Alsee (talk) 07:17, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has been unclosed. The previous RfC was closed quickly and didn't generate a discussion. Not every one is on Wikipedia so we need to open it at least for a day or 2 even if we were to close it. By the way, this RfC is not a proposal but is a request for the community to give some opinions (that's why I said it's open-ended) -- Taku (talk) 08:18, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Has been re-closed by an independent editor because a certain editor is choosing a very hyperbolic position with respect to WP:TE/WP:POINT/WP:WALLEDGARDEN/WP:OWN. Hasteur (talk) 13:16, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So this means we need an RfC on whether to have an RfC seriously? Why shut down the discussion at all? Trying to win an argument by shutting down any attempt to discussion is disingenuous at best. Also please see Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion#Expand_G13_to_cover_ALL_old_drafts for the context for this RfC. -- Taku (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And you may see what constitutes a train-wreck.Winged Blades ^Godric 15:05, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Any ideas on how to get an editor to leave edit summaries please, for example here and here. Aoziwe (talk) 14:31, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Leaving {{Uw-editsummary}} on their talk page is the standard method I'd know to try. Dhtwiki (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I will see what happens. Already tried a request. Aoziwe (talk) 11:06, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Seems to be not working. Aoziwe (talk) 10:27, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Forget about it. People should use edit summaries but unless there are other problems with the editing there is no practical way to force the issue. Cases at WP:ANI have usually overlooked a lack of cooperation regarding edit summaries, or even a failure to respond on talk pages. It's only if there are persistent problems affecting content that action is likely. Johnuniq (talk) 11:17, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Aoziwe (talk) 12:25, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In general, people who are only notable for losing an election to the United States Senate or UK House of Commons do not meet WP:NPOL and are deleted at AfD. As a result, people who are only notable as a candidate for the Senate or Commons are not notable, either. This leads to many contentious debates during election seasons.

Defining which specific lower-level political offices are notable is almost always controversial and should be avoided. To minimize controversy, I feel Wikipedia should generally wait until after the election for deletion discussions. As "important" elections often generate a lot of media coverage, the candidates will meet WP:GNG.

However, having a specific rule for elected offices poses an additional problem. In races where (for example) a mayor is running against a scientist, there is an implicit bias for electing candidates with prior electoral experience. To avoid this bias, either all of the candidates meeting GNG through coverage of the race should be included, or none of them should be included. Power~enwiki (talk) 19:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just in the United States alone, there are elections every two, four or six years for 435 seats in the US House of Representatives, 100 seats in the US Senate, 50 state governorships, thousands upon thousands of seats in state legislatures, a few hundred mayors of cities that are large enough to get their mayors over NPOL, and a couple of hundred city council seats in the couple of dozen cities that are large and important enough to get their city councillors over NPOL too. And there are almost always somewhere between two and a dozen (or more) candidates for each of those seats, adding up to thousands upon thousands of articles about candidates. Then you have to do the same for Canada — 338 seats in the federal House of Commons, 750 seats in provincial and territorial legislatures, lots of mayors and half a dozen metropolitan cities large enough to NPOL the city councillors, again times three-to-twelve candidates per race. And then you have to do the same for the UK and Australia and Germany and France and Italy and the Netherlands and South Africa and Brazil and every other country on earth which has democratic elections, in many of which it can get even worse because the number of parties running candidates makes Canada and the United States look like amateurs in the political diversity sweepstakes.

And if your response is going to be "I only mean the candidates who clear GNG", I've got news for you: at the depth of coverage that's normally brought as evidence of passing GNG for most articles about political candidates, every candidate would always clear GNG — covering local elections in their coverage area is local media's job, so every election and every candidate in it always gets some coverage in the campaign context.

And furthermore, Wikipedia has a rule that notability is not temporary — we cannot deem somebody "temporarily notable pending a future condition they may or may not meet, but then losing that notability if they fail to meet it". Notable today, notable forever (except in the rare instance that notability criteria evolve to the point that the person's base notability claim no longer even meets the standards anymore, which is possible but not actually very common at all.)

Again, the core reason that Wikipedia established the notability criteria that we have for politicians, namely requiring that they hold office and only in certain very rare situations get to claim notability just for the fact of being a candidate in and of itself, is precisely because such articles have an extremely high tendency to get misused as promotional campaign brochures. And we simply don't have the editor base needed to properly monitor or maintain tens of thousands of articles about election candidates for neutrality and sourcing issues, any more than we have the ability to properly monitor or maintain every article that some aspiring wannabe in some other field of endeavour (musicians, writers, artists, high school football players, etc.) wants to create about themselves either.

So no, what you propose simply isn't sustainable at all. Bearcat (talk) 02:59, 5 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The WMF has posted research questions for the upcoming autoconfirmed article creation trial at meta:Research:Autoconfirmed article creation trial. Comments there or at WT:ACTRIAL are appreciated. TonyBallioni (talk) 13:55, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]