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=== Statement by Michael Hardy === |
=== Statement by Michael Hardy === |
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If I had not been completely blindsided by learning of the existence of the corruption, dishonesty, and bullying that is the dominant behavior of the Administrators' Noticeboards, I would have conducted myself differently in the recent events. However, there is no reason for me to recant or apologize for allegations of dishonesty, corruption, and bullying. And those are accusations, not "personal attacks". There are accusations against me on this present page, and no one is calling those "personal attacks" or "insults". That discrepancy is in itself dishonest. It is a '''fact''' that on Administrators' Noticeboards and like venues, there are unstated unadmitted pecking orders, and those who rank high in that unacknowledged system, and their sycophants and other supporters, have de-facto licenses to accuse others without being accused of "personal attacks" or "insults", while others who make accusations of the same kinds, myself obviously included, are accused of "personal attacks" and when making assertions that are factually correct or factually incorrect and that are in fact accusations. And that situation does not scratch the surface of the deep corruption in such forums. I don't even have any idea how to collect sycophants and it has never occurred to me to wish to do so, but as we see, some are masters of that art. |
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One thing I find disturbing that I have not yet commented on is an exchange with Alex Shih. I said that nobody had attempted to explain why allegations are not libelous, that say that the only reason why professors at respected universities use the standard terminology of their fields in public is to create a false impression of legitimacy. Alex Shih responded that many people had explained that to me. When asked for diffs, he linked to the very page on which many had refused to explain that, plus a page on which another user, Guy Macon, had asserted that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are "unquestionably highly lucrative", at best an implausible statement, and therefore those professors are dishonest. I can only wonder if Alex Shih was paying attention to what he wrote. (I actually suspect Guy Macon of honesty, which his followers seem to lack, since he was willing to attempt to give some comprehensible reason for his position. But he has not found out that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are not the same thing as marketing fad diets to the public, nor that such meetings are a standard practice among academics.) |
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Possibly I will file an ArbCom case, but that may be too expensive. I will probably want to be advise in the matter by counsel who is thoroughly familiar ArbCom proceedings. This is an important matter. If I do that, I may or may not include some mention of the |
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I asked "NewYorkBrad" in an email if there is some rational grounds for confidence in the integrity and competence of the Arbitration Committee. Some time later he has not replied. [[User:Michael Hardy|Michael Hardy]] ([[User talk:Michael Hardy|talk]]) 18:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC) |
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=== Statement by SarekOfVulcan === |
=== Statement by SarekOfVulcan === |
Revision as of 18:07, 26 September 2018
Requests for clarification and amendment
Clarification request: Discretionary sanctions
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Tryptofish at 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Statement by TryptofishI would like to ask the Committee how one should understand the following question:
I'm asking this question based on several recent experiences at WP:AE (it doesn't matter which ones). It appears to me that enforcing administrators have become reluctant to get involved in some complaints, when the complaint is not a clear-cut and obvious one. In particular, I have been seeing administrator comments along the lines of "we expect a certain amount of nastiness in topic areas that are highly disputed, so we should just let that go." I realize of course that this is always a case-by-case sort of thing. I suspect that some of this grows out of a concern about backlash against an administrative decision, some out of the fact that there aren't very many admins working at AE, some out of the difficulty of working through tl;dr statements, and some out of the good-faith and very reasonable desire not to sanction someone for simply getting a little hot under the collar. But I've also long believed (perhaps mistakenly) that part of the idea behind DS is that the Committee has determined that the topic area has become such a problem that there is a need to decisively clamp down on disruptive behavior, and that editors who are properly "aware" are expected not to test the boundaries of acceptable conduct. But I think I've been hearing from some AE admins that they regard conduct that has been chronic and disruptive, way beyond the typical hot under the collar situation, but that is the kind of thing that leads to a wall-of-text at WP:ANI, as suboptimal but acceptable when DS are in effect. So how should admins at AE understand the intention of DS in that regard? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by PineDo we know of any research that shows what effects the Arbcom authorization of Discretionary Sanctions has, if any, both positive and negative? Research of this nature could shed some light on whether modifications or clarifications, such as Tryptofish mentions, would be good. The scope of my question is broader than Tryptofish's question, but there is some overlap. I'm not proposing modifications or clarifications, or opposing modifications or clarifications, but I think that a review of research would be beneficial before deciding what next steps to take. --Pine✉ 19:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by Kingofaces43This is a good clarification question being posed. I have a bit of a followup related to the interplay of DS and ArbCom. When behavior X is a major disruptive issue in the topic, arbs can pass motions as a finding of fact saying it has caused disruption while allowing general DS in the topic or even passing principles or DS specifically saying such behavior is not appropriate instead. Now when it comes to AE, editors can present such behavior and say ArbCom has said this isn't appropriate. Admins are free to say what degree of sanctions are needed or not, etc. However, when admins say they expect that level of behavior in DS topics or even say they don't think that behavior is a problem, isn't that contradicting ArbCom to a degree? Admins obviously have discretion with discretionary sanctions, but can that discretion contradict ArbCom findings that specific behavior is problem when it comes to these behavior issues Tryptofish is talking about? Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by Minor4thThis might be a dumb question (sorry) but can someone point me to a clear definition of exactly what "discretionary sanctions" is or are? This is a very good clarification, Tryptofish. Thank you. Minor4th 00:32, 21 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by AtsmeI still haven't figured out how/why ArbCom doesn't handle arbitration enforcement - I wonder if doing so would result in better remedies during arbitration. 😉 Gotta wonder why we have this venue for clarification. We elect administrators to use the mop to keep the peace and do necessary janitorial chores around the project, which means that with our admin shortage, they're already overworked and pressed for time. We elect ArbCom to resolve the complex issues that could not be remedied by the community or individual admins, so why is arb enforcement left to the discretion of a single admin? The words of Opabinia regalis still reverberate regarding an issue brought to this noticeboard because it was too complex for AE: ..."too complex for AE" means "too complex for self-selected volunteers who aren't actually obliged to do fuck all", whereas "too complex for ARCA" means "too complex for the people who specifically volunteered for and were elected to deal with complex problems and are as obliged to do things as anybody can be in an internet hobby". We can thank our lucky stars that we have a good share of excellent admins and arbitrators and that complex matters don't have to be judged by a single admin who serves as both our judge & jury. I think arb remedies/DS should always be handled by a minimum of three admins, and the three should rotate every quarter. My apologies for being so critical, but the entire process just doesn't seem to be very efficient, and we're losing good editors as a result. Atsme✍🏻📧 02:27, 21 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Discretionary sanctions: Clerk notes
Discretionary sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Clarification request: Wikipedia:Casting aspersions
This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Initiated by Obsidi at 12:00, 20 September 2018 (UTC) List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:
Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request Statement by ObsidiI have a question concerning the principles ArbCom has established concerning WP:Casting aspersions. As this isn't a policy or guideline, this seemed the best place to clarify such decisions. My question is, does this only apply when a specific editor is named or implied? Obviously given the context in which the words are stated, it may be clear who they are WP:Casting aspersions on, and in such a case that cannot be allowed. But the problem I see with not allowing people to discuss such misbehavior more generically is that it stifles discussion concerning generalized problems with Wikipedia's processes in general. For instance, if I say "there are a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." Saying a specific person is being a bully repeatedly without bringing them to a noticeboard and providing evidence of that would be WP:Casting aspersions. But at the same time, there may in fact be a lot of bullies on the noticeboards and yet it may not rise to the level of seriousness where sanctions are justified (and so bringing them before an appropriate noticeboard and accusing them of that would be futile). Additionally I may wish to discuss such a problem so we can devise a solution to "there being a lot of bullies on the noticeboards." But how can I do this if I cannot even discuss the very problems that I wish to fix? For these reasons, I am of the opinion that WP:Casting aspersions was properly limited to named or where it could reasonably be inferred who the person was talking about. But in the context of a recent block, another editor disagreed [8]. This isn't about that specific block (or whether the block is appropriate, or the conditions for unblock). But just a question of what the rules are. In re-reading WP:Casting aspersions, I noticed that it was somewhat ambiguous on this topic and so I could hardly blame the other editor for coming to this conclusion. So I am asking for clarification.
Statement by Beyond My KenIt may be that my connecting Michael Hardy's non-specific broadly generalized charges about "corruption", "bullies", "cliques" and "dishonesty" on the Noticeboards to WP:Casting aspersions will be a step too far for some, but I continue to think that it's close enough to the spirit of CA to justify the connection. It hardly matters, though, since the Fourth Pillar specifies that "Wikipedia's editors should treat each other with respect and civility," and it can hardly be said that Hardy making such wild accusations about unspecified parties is either civil or collegial. If there is corruption, bullying, cliquishness, and dishonesty, it needs to be dealt with, but the only way that can happen is by the presentation of specific evidence about specific editors. Hardy's steadfast refusal to do so seems to me to be in direct opposition to what the Fourth Pillar stands for, besides being disruptive and not at all the kind of behavior that I, at least, expect from an admin. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:20, 21 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MandrussIt would be unwise to apply CA to general statements about the Wikipedia editing population or some segment thereof, or even more generally about human nature and its effects on Wikipedia editing. Those discussions are important and meaningful, even occasionally useful. And I've never seen anybody apply CA to that type of comments, including quite a few I've made myself. I think the essential difference is whether the comments arise from the whole of one's Wikipedia experience or from a specific situation. My exposure to the MH saga was limited, but my impression is that his remarks were more of the latter type, and CA applies. As for what BMK meant in the comment linked by the OP, BMK can (and, I expect, will) speak for himself. ―Mandruss ☎ 12:29, 20 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by AtsmeI agree that clarity is needed to help eliminate the inconsistencies in admin actions that may range from no action at all to indef t-bans or blocks, and everything else in between - all of which depends on who the admin and subject editor happen to be at the time. An occasional *sigh* at the end of a sentence may be misconstrued as belittling which is an aspersion whereas profanity shouted in anger may be excused. Is telling someone their comment is full of bologna an aspersion? Do insults count as aspersions - could a joke be thought of as an aspersion? Why are aspersions actionable and not outbursts of profanity? Perhaps examples should be provided as a gage to determine what is considered (1) intolerable aspersions that are blockable, (2) borderline aspersions that require a warning, and (3) not an aspersion. Having clarity and a gage to judge by may help to eliminate potential unwarranted actions or incidents where no action was taken because of uncertainty. It is clear that casting aspersions must be accompanied by diffs but more emphasis needs to be placed on the fact that the provided diffs must clearly support the claim, and it should apply to all editors & admins who participate at AE, AN, AN/I and wherever else aspersions may be an actionable behavioral issue. If the diffs are found to not support the allegations, then a boomerang is in order, and the latter really needs to be included in the clarification. I think it will help eliminate some of the cases we're seeing now that are based on casting aspersions. Atsme✍🏻📧 17:51, 20 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by TryptofishLike Atsme, I feel that there is a lot of undefined territory here. As I see it, a lot of the difficulty comes out of the community's lack of broad consensus as to what constitutes incivility (and of course there is a limit to how far ArbCom should get ahead of the community). It looks to me like the community has low tolerance for new or unregistered editors saying incivil stuff, but is willing to make way too many (in my opinion) excuses when an established and net-positive user says something incivil. I feel like I'm seeing much more anger in discussions than I would like to see. As for aspersions specifically, I would suggest that ArbCom look at it in terms of where a particular conduct does or does not disrupt editing. As I see it, saying that other editors are taking a position because they hold a particular belief should not be considered an aspersion. If I say "I think you feel strongly about X, and that's why you want to edit the page that way", although it's true that I am commenting on another editor's motivations, that's not something that we should disallow. It can be a necessary part of some discussions. But if I say "I think you are incompetent, and that's why you made that edit", that is an aspersion and a personal attack. The difference is I'm not talking about the other editor's point of view, but about their personal characteristics. And saying without clear evidence "I think you are editing that way because you are acting on behalf of X" is also an aspersion, and one with a history. The last case linked by the OP here was the GMO case: [10]. And this is a history that needs to be understood. Prior to the case, it had become common for editors to say things like "Editors are trying to sanitize this page because Wikipedia is full of shills acting on behalf of Monsanto". It became such a problem that it led to significant findings in that case. After the case, editors who were not already topic banned realized that they had better not say "shill" anymore, so they started dancing around it by saying things like "Editors are acting together to keep all criticism of Monsanto off this page". And here is the reason why that is still an aspersion, in a way that "Editors want to have more negative content about GMOs" is not. It goes beyond asserting that other editors have a particular POV, to where there is the implication, without evidence, of conduct that violates policy. We have policies against undeclared paid editing, and the aspersion is that some editors are violating those policies, above and beyond just having a POV. And it doesn't matter if the aspersion is framed in general instead of identifying a particular editor by name. It's still something that should be considered an aspersion, and it is something that can be highly disruptive. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:14, 20 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by Minor4thIt does seem as though aspersions are in the eye of the beholder. As such, there is wild inconsistency in enforcement, which leads to the problem of editors not really having proper notice of where there boundaries are. I think that most policies and guidelines on Wiki are interpreted and applied this way, however.Minor4th 00:42, 21 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by Alanscottwalker@Newyorkbrad: In your example, it seems you only dealt with part of the analysis (perhaps because that is the direct issue). I'm sure you are aware, but 'no aspersions' is only part of the fuzzy 'code of conduct', if you will, see eg, WP:AGF. So, leaping to 'paid' should be avoided, especially when nothing even suggests paid is involved, and we are dealing with multiple people from multiple places/life experiences, who are bound to say things differently. Seems a better way if you want to explore it, would be to ask honest good faith questions (eg. non-accusatory), before assuming anything. Especially so, since 'you said others were paid', could itself fall into 'aspersion' territory. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:40, 21 September 2018 (UTC) Statement by {other-editor}Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information. Wikipedia:Casting aspersions: Clerk notes
Wikipedia:Casting aspersions: Arbitrator views and discussion
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Amendment request: Michael Hardy
Initiated by Beeblebrox at 20:48, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- Clauses to which an amendment is requested
- List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request
- Beeblebrox (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) (initiator)
- Michael Hardy (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- JzG (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Ritchie333 (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)
- Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request
- diff of notification Michael Hardy
- diff of notification SarekOfVulcan
- diff of notification JzG
- diff of notification Ritchie333
- Information about amendment request
- The committee should consider whether this warning had the desired effect and whether Michael Hardy should continue to be an administrator on this project.
Statement by Beeblebrox
The 2016 committee decided a “reminder” was a sufficient remedy in this case. That reminder has clearly failed to have the desired effect as disruption in this area has continued and taken much time and resources from the community. The remedy reminds Michael Hardy that “Administrators are expected to set an example with their behavior, including refraining from incivility and responding patiently to good-faith concerns about their conduct, even when those concerns are expressed suboptimally.” and the finding of fact upon wich this remedy was based, [11] reads, in part, that “(Michael Hardy) has perpetuated the dispute with his own actions. Hardy has assumed bad faith of the editors criticizing his behavior and failed to drop the stick.” If he was failing to drop the stick two years ago, and is still causing disruption in this exact same area even after a full arbitration case by now it must at least be failure to drop a limb or a tree trunk. Here is the recent AN thread [12] a village pump thread [13] and a recent thread at Jimbotalk [14]. Hardy’s talk page and block log also contain relevant material showing that this is part of the same issue as the previous full case.
I would suggest that this sort of behavior is unbecoming of an administrator, and for failing to heed this warning, Michael Hardy be removed as an administrator. I would stress that I am not alleging tool misuse but rather a clear, prolonged unwillingness or inability to abide by expected standards of admin behavior, as outlined in the committee’s previous decision. I believe the community has failed itself by not bringing this forward sooner, allowing the committee to sit on it’s hands and do nothing while all this disruption has gone on in project space.
(To be clear, I am automatically listed as a party due to filing this request but I have had no involvement whatsoever in the current dispute and cycle of blocking and unblocking. I am including those admins as parties here as I’m sure they will each have their own opinions to proffer)
To those who seem to think I wish to re-litigate the recent AN thread and the assosciated blocks: I do not. Whether he shoud have been blocked for his behavior was addressed by the community, and it seems, finally, to have made up its mind. What I am looking to do is assess whether Hardy should still be an admin, which is the exclusive purview of the committee and it has already ruled once on his behavior in this specific topic area and how it reflects on his continued membership in the admin corps. I might have done this sooner but I was camping for the last week and when I came back and saw the drama had continued but it still hadn’t been brought here as it should’ve been. Arbcom doesn’t go looking for cases and requests even if it is well aware of the issues, somebody has to bring it to them, and nobody else seemed like they were going to do it.
I may be pressing the word limit now, but in answers to “why now” I would again suggest that this is what should’ve been done to begin with, as there was already a full case on this exact issue. I was unavailable at the time the AN thread was closed and the unblocking occured and looking at the closde thread I was surprised to find that seemingly it hadn’t occured to anyone that this was already Arbcom’s problem since they issued a ruling on this editor’s behavior in this specific topic area previously, and also the issue of conduct unbecoming an admin is not an issue the community is equipped to deal with, only the committee is. His fitness as an editor is not the topic here, only how his behavior reflects on his staus as an admin, which he was explicitly warned about by this committee.
Statement by Michael Hardy
If I had not been completely blindsided by learning of the existence of the corruption, dishonesty, and bullying that is the dominant behavior of the Administrators' Noticeboards, I would have conducted myself differently in the recent events. However, there is no reason for me to recant or apologize for allegations of dishonesty, corruption, and bullying. And those are accusations, not "personal attacks". There are accusations against me on this present page, and no one is calling those "personal attacks" or "insults". That discrepancy is in itself dishonest. It is a fact that on Administrators' Noticeboards and like venues, there are unstated unadmitted pecking orders, and those who rank high in that unacknowledged system, and their sycophants and other supporters, have de-facto licenses to accuse others without being accused of "personal attacks" or "insults", while others who make accusations of the same kinds, myself obviously included, are accused of "personal attacks" and when making assertions that are factually correct or factually incorrect and that are in fact accusations. And that situation does not scratch the surface of the deep corruption in such forums. I don't even have any idea how to collect sycophants and it has never occurred to me to wish to do so, but as we see, some are masters of that art.
One thing I find disturbing that I have not yet commented on is an exchange with Alex Shih. I said that nobody had attempted to explain why allegations are not libelous, that say that the only reason why professors at respected universities use the standard terminology of their fields in public is to create a false impression of legitimacy. Alex Shih responded that many people had explained that to me. When asked for diffs, he linked to the very page on which many had refused to explain that, plus a page on which another user, Guy Macon, had asserted that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are "unquestionably highly lucrative", at best an implausible statement, and therefore those professors are dishonest. I can only wonder if Alex Shih was paying attention to what he wrote. (I actually suspect Guy Macon of honesty, which his followers seem to lack, since he was willing to attempt to give some comprehensible reason for his position. But he has not found out that meetings at which professors present their research findings to each other are not the same thing as marketing fad diets to the public, nor that such meetings are a standard practice among academics.)
Possibly I will file an ArbCom case, but that may be too expensive. I will probably want to be advise in the matter by counsel who is thoroughly familiar ArbCom proceedings. This is an important matter. If I do that, I may or may not include some mention of the
I asked "NewYorkBrad" in an email if there is some rational grounds for confidence in the integrity and competence of the Arbitration Committee. Some time later he has not replied. Michael Hardy (talk) 18:07, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SarekOfVulcan
Statement by JzG
Is this a "live case or controversy"? I thought it had finally died down? Guy (Help!) 21:35, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Ritchie333
My thoughts are as follows:
- Michael is a prolific and long-standing writer in the field of Mathematics and contributes hugely to the encyclopedia. A block on Michael prevents this work happening.
- Michael has had difficulty expressing his viewpoint in conflicts in a manner that other people understand easily. This has led to multiple noticeboard threads.
- Michael generally does not use the administrator tools.
- A substantial amount of conflict has arisen, not least the original arbitration case, because of Michael's perceived "status" as an admin, and demonstrating hostility and incivility towards editors that would not be tolerated in any candidate running for RfA today. Therefore the community considers Michael's adminship to be unfair.
- I believe the original blocks on Michael were within the bounds of administrator discretion. While blocking for civility should be a last resort, in this case I believe it could be considered appropriate to force an editing holiday on Michael in order that everybody else can stop talking about it and get back to working, and give us a net reduction in disruption.
- I unblocked Michael because I saw consensus to do so from multiple administrators and wanted disruption to decrease and for people to stop watching his talk page for evidence of it.
- A significant amount of disruption and drama would go away if people just left Michael alone.
I don't have any strong opinions on what to happen next, but this is simply the current state of affairs as I see it. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 21:21, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Swarm
Michael Hardy was indefinitely blocked for, essentially, repeatedly complaining about a group of editors who responded to a complaint he made here, and refusing to drop the stick about it. For reasons I explained in my assessment here and here, the treatment MH received was very unfair and problematic, so much so that I apologized to him on behalf of AN. Myself and a group of other admins eventually negotiated an unblock in which Michael agreed to not bring it up anymore. We let him have the last word, and he appears to have moved on since then, with no further issues. I have no idea why someone would try to rehash this all now, days after the situation had been reasonably resolved. There was no significant offense here, just some very human righteous indignation.
- Just want to re-emphasize a point that Ritchie made above, which is absolutely true: A significant amount of disruption and drama would go away if people just left Michael alone. (Swarm ♠ talk) 23:07, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- As for whether any of this is desysop-level misconduct in general, I think such sentiments are foolish. MH brought something to AN that nobody but he cared about. That was the big offense. For some reason, a bunch of people were unduly rude and dismissive about it, and while he should have just moved on and let it go like he was told to, we need to recognize the fact that he wasn't in the wrong for feeling mistreated or bullied. That's not a behavioral issue on his part. That was a situation that was provoked in the original AN thread. (Swarm ♠ talk) 23:31, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by SchroCat
Beeblebrox, I’m only passing through, having seen the link elsewhere, so I can’t comment on the situation here, but I think I’m right in saying that little will happen without diffs to show the behaviour you outline. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 21:14, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Floq
This seems like picking at a fresh scab, Beeb. I'd have waited to see what happens now that the recent troubles appear to have died down. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:18, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Paul August
No. Michael Hardy validly complained about AN/ANI, refused to stop complaining about AN/ANI, and was blocked by AN/ANI. Perhaps instead AN/ANI ought to be "reminded". Paul August ☎ 22:04, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Dave
I absolutely agree Micheal should be desysopped for their behaviour but the drama's died down and they've finally dropped the stick so in my eyes the best course of action would be to leave them be and if they start again then Arb is (or should be) the first port of call. I just don't see the point in rehashing it all out again. –Davey2010Talk 22:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Alanscottwalker
This is a model of poor AN behavior, and it is so because of the ad hominem of which Michael Hardy was the victim, in the form of 'Because it is you, Michael Hardy . . .'. So, it is AN that is in need of reminding that WP:CIV explicitly seeks to prevent bringing up the past in such a manner ("it is as unacceptable to attack a user who has a history of foolish or boorish behaviour, or even one who has been subject to disciplinary action by the Arbitration Committee, as it is to attack any other user"). Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:27, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- Per policy, it is irrelevant and off-topic to a blanking discussion whether Michael Hardy is/was bad, -- policy does not contain a 'Michael Hardy is/was bad' factor. The only thing that matters, by policy, is, "may cause harm to some person or organisation." So, by policy, it is not correct, nor justifiable, nor even just, to respond, 'you are bad, Micheal Hardy'; nor, 'you were bad, Micheal Hardy'. The faulty AN ad hominem, remains the proper focus of where correction and reminding is needed, and not just for MH's sake, for anyone who has the possible misfortune of going to Admin boards, and for the general purpose of DR and Admin process, it is the needed focus. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:43, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Black Kite
Yes, Michael should have been desysopped during the period of chaos that resulted from his persistent personal attacks on other editors (his actions were clearly not in keeping with anyone who holds advanced permissions), but this seems like a strange time to be bringing a case now, when everything has died down and Michael has promised not to repeat his actions. Obviously, if such editing were to reoccur, a desysopping would be a slam dunk, but I'd like to think that we'd give someone a chance to show they can carry on with their (obviously positive) editing without such an issue happening again. Black Kite (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- I made accusations against others and others made accusations against me. Mine were characterized as "personal attacks"; theirs were not. There is much hypocrisy and dishonesty there. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:40, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Alex Shih
Out of the blue, Michael Hardy blanked the AfD ([15]) that hasn't been edited since 2016 (the one that initiated the arbitration case in 2016), and re-litigated their argument from two years ago at M. A. Bruhn's talk page ([16]) who hasn't edited since December 2016, and also left a similar message to Orangemike ([17]), who started the AfD in question two years ago. The behaviours of some editors at the noticeboard was certainly hostile and troubling, but to completely ignore how the thread originated, the conduct of Michael Hardy, and the context of this entire situation is also not correct I think. In conclusion, the point that the issue would have gone away if people simply left Michael Hardy alone is not entirely correct when considering the subsequent development.
While the AfD question has been resolved, what I think the points Beeblebrox are raising is that 1) The original remedies has proven to be inadequate, and should be updated with motion 2) Similar to the Andrevan case request, the fact there weren't misuse of tools is irrelevant as that is not the only aspect of adminship covered by the requirements of accountability. The fact that a case wasn't brought forward should not be a justification that there were no merits for a case, rather the lack of editors who are capable of bringing such a case, involving many bizarre and unusual aspects, correctly. While the timing has indeed passed and nothing can really be done anymore, the fact that ADMINACCT and some arbitration remedies are so inconsistently or selectively enforced (like in this case), and avoiding to tackle the core of a problem that would more than likely to re-surface, are not some of the principles that should be upheld. While regular editors should walk away from the timesink, this is the kind of job that Arbcom needs to do. Alex Shih (talk) 01:28, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Johnuniq
Since the fuss, MH has edited 38 articles and one DYK and has made no mention of the excitement that I can see. Picking at the scab is most undesirable. There has been no suggestion that admin tools have been misused so removing them would be pointless. Johnuniq (talk) 03:31, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Boing! said Zebedee
As one who was trying to de-escalate the latest fracas, I simply want to offer my opinion that Ritchie333's statement is an accurate and fair account of what happened, and his opinion that "A significant amount of disruption and drama would go away if people just left Michael alone" is sound. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 06:55, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by Seraphimblade
I think "staleness" can matter in some cases. The crucial distinction that I think exists here is that Michael Hardy is not accused of any misuse of the admin tools, nor is there any substantial cause for concern that he will abuse them going forward. This is, rather, just a "conduct unbecoming" case (and having looked at what happened, Michael Hardy is not the only one whose conduct was not the greatest). If Michael (and everyone else) really will drop the matter, then it's over with and nothing further is needed. If he doesn't intend to do that, desysopping won't prevent him from raising it again anyway. Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by MjolnirPants
I was one of the parties in the case referenced. I'm of the opinion that the way MH was handled most recently was the best way to do it: When he throws a fit about something, block him until he agrees to stop throwing a fit about it, then unblock him so he can continue editing. This is, IMHO, an editor who's behavior needs managing, but who contributes quite usefully to the project. So let's just handle the behavior and let him keep contributing. Note that my value judgement of the behavior would read very differently, but since we're not here to teach adulting lessons, we should focus on what helps the project. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:48, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- When I object to dishonesty and bullying, that is called "throwing a fit", but I wonder who will say that this user is "throwing a fit" by making allegations against me. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:42, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
Statement by {other-editor}
Michael Hardy: Clerk notes
- This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).
Michael Hardy: Arbitrator views and discussion
- There have obviously been issues but like several of those commenting, I’m not sure why we are seeing this request at this moment. Excessive rhetoric and unnecessary drama were belatedly deescalated: why stir them again now? Newyorkbrad (talk) 23:36, 25 September 2018 (UTC)
- I don’t get it either. Michael has resumed normal activities for him and relative peace, AFAICT, once again reigns throughout his corner of the encyclopedia. He hasn’t edited in a couple of days. Why the need to bring
a caseaction at this particular moment? Katietalk 00:12, 26 September 2018 (UTC) - I'm inclined to decline at this time. As Brad and Katie have pointed out, the storm has subsided and the drama has ended for the time being. If it starts again, sure, but since it hasn't since the unblock, what's the point of this? ♠PMC♠ (talk) 00:41, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- I'm conflicted on this request. On one hand, I don't think anything has changed in the past week regarding whether Michael's conduct was compatible with adminship (without comment on whether it was or not). I don't want to set precedent that a case must be filed immediately or else administrative misconduct goes stale. On the other hand, why kick off drama again when it's just been quelled? Either way, ARCA is not the place to handle this. We would need a full case if we are seriously considering desysopping as a potential remedy (and we would have to be to justify a case at this late hour). Decline to take action at ARCA without prejudice against a case request. ~ Rob13Talk 03:11, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- The community is getting better and better at handling behaviours, Arbcom is becoming more and more redundant. So, as Michael has stated that he's going to move on or raise an Arb case, I think we're at the point that things have calmed down - which is what Wikipedian's normally want, to get on and beaver away. Per Rob, I don't want to discourage people from raising cases (or taking action) or imply that misconduct can go stale, but when a solution is put forward by the community (in this case an unblock with an agreement that he moves on), it should be given a chance to work. Also, procedurally, I wouldn't be happy removing tools by motion based on recent behaviour, there are too many factors over the period which would need to be looked at, as well as the possibility of alternative solutions, and that would need a full case. So, I'm a decline at the moment, without prejudice to a full case, or return if anything changes. WormTT(talk) 08:46, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
- I am of two minds here. On one hand, Michael's actions were one that I would not want to see an admin take in the least. On the other, Michael has seemed to walk away from the edge and moved on, thankfully. If a desysop truly is warranted, a case request should be made for that. Since the drama itself seems to have mellowed out, for now I decline. RickinBaltimore (talk) 12:09, 26 September 2018 (UTC)